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“DeSantis Cancels Disney.” · Pod Save America

• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Florida Republicans try to cancel Disney as
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: a Michigan Democrat teaches her party how to win the
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: culture wars. Dr. Bob Wachter joins to talk about the
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: fate of the federal mask mandate and more. And later,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: it's time for another round of Take Appreciator, Socky Doocy Edition.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: But first, check out the latest Take Line, where Jason
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: talks to Salt Lake Tribune journalist Andy Larson about the
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Jazz's Game 1 win. and Sports Illustrated journalist Chris Mannix
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: about the Celts Net series. Also this week on Stuck
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: with Damon Young, Damon is talking all about money. He's
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: joined by Samantha Irby and Mirsa Baradaran to unpack all
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: the ways we discuss and don't discuss money in society.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Listen to all episodes of Stuck with Damon Young for
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: free only on Spotify. Also, gotta have you guys sign
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: up for Vote Save America. We're trying to get 40,000
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: by the end of May so that we can be
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: ready for November 15th. It is votesaveamerica.com slash midterms. You
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: can go, you can pick a region. I'm in the
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Western region. That's my region. Dan, what are you? You're Southeast.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: You love Florida. That's why you have the South.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: I'm in the South because I go where Stacey Abrams
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: tells me to go.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: And so I picked the South. Yeah, you tried to
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: trade Florida to love it, but it didn't work.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: I stand by that decision. And the ensuing podcast will
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: show why.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: All right, votesaveamerica.com slash midterms. All right, let's get to
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: the news. As you know, The Republican Party's new kink
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: is using the power of the state to punish private
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: sector businesses just for the crime of expressing different political beliefs.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: On Thursday, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill into
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: law to cancel a 50-year-old economic deal with Disney, the
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: state's largest employer and most beloved brand, over the company's
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: criticism of a law that targets gay and trans kids.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: I think as many of you know, the Florida legislature
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: is meeting this week to consider the congressional reapportionment plan
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: for Florida for the next 10 years. And that is
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: what they've been called upon to do. But I am
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: announcing today that we are expanding the call of what
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: they are going to be considering this week. And so, yes,
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: they will be considering the congressional map, but they also
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: will be considering termination of all special districts that were
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: enacted in Florida prior to 1968. And that includes the
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: Reedy Creek Improvement District.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Dan, would you like to weigh in on the wisdom
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: of Ron DeSantis and Florida Republicans trying to cancel Disney?
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Can we first weigh in on just how lame a
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: messenger Ron DeSantis is?
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's trying to be Trump, but he's really not.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: That's not Trump. That's a cheap imitation.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: That is like, he would struggle to get a job
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: as a public access news anchor. Like that is just really,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, he really leaned into the Reedy Creek district,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: whatever at the end.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good messaging. Everyone was clear about what that
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: was all about.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, people in all sorts of MAGA diners are
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: talking about the Reedy Creek thing. It is dominating conversations.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Just ask any New York Times reporter. No, I think
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: in all seriousness, I think that this is, it's sort
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: of wild that Ron DeSantis, who's up for reelection this year,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: a bunch of Florida state legislators who are up for
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: reelection this year and plan to make their entire political
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: career in Florida, are waging war with one of America's
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: most respected companies and one of the largest employers in
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: all of Florida. And the thing that is so fucking
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: alarming about that is it's good politics for them. That
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: is the thing. In a normal world, forever and ever
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: and ever, politicians would cater to the largest employers in
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: their states or their state's largest industries. That's usually a
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: bad thing nationally. It's why New Jersey senators for a
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: long time were overly sympathetic to the pharmaceutical companies based
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: in New Jersey. People from Delaware, overly sympathetic to the
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: credit card companies based in Delaware and on and on
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: and on and on. But here in Florida, they're taking
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: on Disney. And I think it says something that is
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: worth Democrats sort of understanding, which is it's sort of
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: proof positive that all politics are national now, that the
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: benefits of good coverage from Fox, of adulation from national
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: right-wing media figures outweighs the risk of a negative editorial
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: from the Orlando Sentinel or some local stakeholder or chamber
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: of commerce person saying something negative about you or weighing
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: in against you. And I think that speaks to so
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: much of what is driving American politics now is happening
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: right here in Florida. And I think the second point is,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: that we have to understand this not as a fight
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: against a corporation, but as a fight against change. These
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: are Republicans who are in the death throes of a
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: battle against the inexorable tide of cultural change, where the
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: country is becoming more tolerant, more progressive, and they are
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: trying to fight to, quote unquote, make America great again,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: or make America less tolerant again, or go back to
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: a period of time And Disney plays an important role
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: in that because it's so intertwined in our cultural fabric.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: So I'm trying to figure out if it is good
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: politics for them. Like it is unquestionably good politics with
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: the MAGA base, right? Because everything is. That Donald Trump
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: or Ron DeSantis says, right? But like, I don't know.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: I know that the polling about the bill itself is...
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: is mixed, partly because it depends on how you word
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: it and what you include in the poll question, so
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: it's sort of a complicated issue. But, like, the idea
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: that now the government is going to punish private sector
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: businesses for holding political beliefs that the Republican Party doesn't
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: agree with seems... Like a bridge too far. Like it
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: might have been a bit of an overreach for a
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: lot of people. I don't know.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Well, that is correct. But someone has to make that argument.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Nothing is inherently good or bad politics. It is just
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: how the argument plays itself out and which arguments are
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: made and which arguments are heard. And one of the
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: reasons why the polling has been mixed on this bill
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: is there are not enough people with loud enough voices
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: making the right argument against it. And so that is
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: the issue. This is an opportunity for Democrats.
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily saying it's an opportunity. It means that
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: we're going to all of a sudden defeat Ron DeSantis
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: or a bunch of these legislators in gerrymandered districts. But
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: there is an argument to be made here, but not
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: enough people are making the argument.
• 7:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, again, Florida Republicans voted against banning all sex
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: education for kids in kindergarten through third grade. and instead
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: decided to pass a law that specifically bans discussion about
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: sexual identity so that a teacher can be sued for
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: merely answering a question about a student's gay parents. And now,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: because a company said that they disagree with that law,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: their government has threatened to punish them in a way
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: that raises people's taxes, potentially. None of that seems very popular.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: But you're right, people have to make that argument, as
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: opposed to just being like, Ron DeSantis, what he did
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: is bad and crazy and who cares? You have to
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: really actually make the argument about why it's bad. And
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: there's a lot to work with. I just want to
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: say there's a lot to work with.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's also worth noting that when we say
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Disney said they didn't support the law, that's giving them
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: a lot more credit than they deserve.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: They put out a fucking statement.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Under pressure, right?
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Under pressure, right. Yeah, I know.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: What happened here is Disney's new CEO and their new
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: head of public affairs, who's this like old Washington hand
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: who sort of like hung around at bipartisan salons and
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: parties when he worked in D.C., completely misunderstood who the
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Republican Party was. So they tried to take no stance,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: thinking that that would appease the Republicans. They then took
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: a half-hearted stance against the bill. And now the Republicans
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: want to cancel them, literally putting the cancel and cancel culture.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think there is a lesson for corporations
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: out there, which Facebook should have learned this lesson, Disney
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: is learning this lesson, hell, the New York Times should
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: have learned this lesson a long time ago, appeasement is
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: a strategy doomed to fail when you're dealing with a
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: bunch of bad faith people.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: But also, I mean, there's something dangerous here, which is
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Ron DeSantis and Republicans are basically sending a message to
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: all private businesses, which is like, you disagree with the
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: ruling party and you will be punished. And that is,
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: you know, That's getting to be sort of authoritarian shit
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: right there. Because today it's a message for businesses. Tomorrow
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: it's a message for individuals. If you're on the side
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: of a political issue from the ruling party and you
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: put out a statement, just a statement saying you disagree
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: with us, there will be retribution. And I don't think
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of people want to live in that country.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: I actually would say the majority of Americans don't want
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: to live in that country.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: And if you're on the side of kids and teachers
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: and parents, the Republicans will come after you.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: That's what this is. And just in case any of
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: you are wondering if Ted Cruz would weigh in on this,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: fear not. Here's a clip.
• 9:42
  Speaker 6: I think there are people who are misguided trying to drive,
• 9:46
  Speaker 6: you know, Disney stepping in saying, you know, in every
• 9:50
  Speaker 6: episode now they're going to have, you know, you know.
• 9:54
  Speaker 7: Mickey and Pluto going at it.
• 9:56
  Speaker 6: Like, really?
• 9:58
  Speaker 7: Thank you for that image, Senator.
• 10:00
  Speaker 6: But it's just like come on guys like like these
• 10:03
  Speaker 6: are kids and and you know.
• 10:06
  Speaker 7: You could always shift to cinemax if you want.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: That what kind of uh what kind of cinemax is
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: ted cruz getting there's there's uh Mickey and Pluto. What's
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: going on there?
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, Ted Cruz, if like, once again, if we
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: had our Fox news that would do Fox news style headlines,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: it would be Ted Cruz reveals preference for animated mouse
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: on dog porn.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Ted Cruz famous for liking a tweet that showed porn.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: I guess it was, I guess it was his staffer. Sorry. Oh, sure. Yeah,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: I know. Sure it was. Sure it was. Yeah. I just,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: I read the, I read the, I read the tweet
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: for the articles.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: Ted Cruz does have an amazing ability to take whatever
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: the argument is and then do it in the dumbest,
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: least appealing, least persuasive form humanly possible.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Which is very clippable. That's why Ted Cruz gets
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: a lot of airtime here.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Where we probably all win with that agreement.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: But again, it's, it's, it's back to what we were
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: just talking about with DeSantis that like, you know, First
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: of all, none of that's happening with Disney movies. Second
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: of all, if a Disney movie is showing something that
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: you don't want to show your kids, don't fucking watch it.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: It's a free country. This is such Republican overreach in
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: that they have now decided they don't want to just,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: you know, fuck with public sector stuff. They actually want
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: to go in and think the government's job is to
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: tell the private sector, to tell parents, to tell doctors,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: to tell everyone else. what to do with their lives,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: how to live their lives, who to love, who to marry,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: who to be. This is what the Republican Party is now.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: This is the party of limited government and personal freedom.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: This is where they are now. This is where they've moved.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: There is freedom of speech as long as you say
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: what we want you to say.
• 11:54
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's bullshit argument, freedom of speech. They're not for
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: freedom of speech. They're for making sure that you believe
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: what Republicans believe. All right. We've talked a lot about
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: how Democrats should respond to these Republican culture wars and
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: And this week, Michigan State Senator Mallory McMorrow showed us
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: how it's done. After a Republican colleague sent out a
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: fundraising email accusing her of being a troll who wants
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: to groom kindergartners and teach that eight-year-olds are responsible for slavery,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: she gave an impassioned five-minute speech that has now been
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: viewed millions and millions of times. Here's a clip.
• 12:25
  Speaker 8: I didn't expect to wake up yesterday to the news
• 12:28
  Speaker 8: that the senator from the 22nd district had, overnight, accused
• 12:31
  Speaker 8: me by name of grooming and sexualizing children in an
• 12:37
  Speaker 8: email fundraising for herself. So I sat on it for
• 12:41
  Speaker 8: a while wondering.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Why me?
• 12:44
  Speaker 8: And then I realized, because I am the biggest threat
• 12:47
  Speaker 8: to your hollow, hateful scheme, because you can't claim that
• 12:52
  Speaker 8: you are targeting marginalized kids in the name of, quote,
• 12:55
  Speaker 8: parental rights, if another parent is standing up to say no.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: So, then what?
• 13:02
  Speaker 8: Then you dehumanize and marginalize me. You say that I'm
• 13:06
  Speaker 8: one of them. You say she's a groomer. She supports pedophilia.
• 13:09
  Speaker 8: She wants children to believe that they were responsible for
• 13:12
  Speaker 8: slavery and to feel bad about themselves because they're white. Well,
• 13:16
  Speaker 8: here's a little bit of background about who I really am.
• 13:20
  Speaker 8: My mom taught me at a very young age that
• 13:22
  Speaker 8: Christianity and faith was about being part of a community,
• 13:26
  Speaker 8: about recognizing our privilege and blessings and doing what we
• 13:28
  Speaker 8: can to be of service to others, especially people who
• 13:32
  Speaker 8: are marginalized, targeted, and who had less.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Often unfairly.
• 13:37
  Speaker 8: I learned that service was far more important than performative
• 13:41
  Speaker 8: nonsense like being seen in the same pew every Sunday
• 13:44
  Speaker 8: or writing Christian in your Twitter bio and using that
• 13:48
  Speaker 8: as a shield to target and marginalize already marginalized people.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Dan, why do you think the speech went viral and what,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: if anything, can Democrats learn from it?
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I think it went viral because it's something that we
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: have not heard enough. which is authentic moral outrage at
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: morally outrageous conduct and rhetoric. Like what the Republicans are doing.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: You think we've been short on moral outrage?
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: I think we have been short on authentic moral outrage
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: from Democratic politicians, for sure.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, from politicians.
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, I'm not saying that there's not a,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: we are not awash in moral outrage on Twitter. But
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: among the people that we have sent Washington and to
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: state capitals and elsewhere to fight back against the people
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: doing this morally outrageous conduct, you don't hear it enough.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: And it was authentic. It used her biography and her
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: values as a way to push back on it. And
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: it does connect, and other people have drawn this connection,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: but it does connect with the Senator Brian Schatz speech
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: about Josh Hawley. It's What Republicans are doing is so
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: cruel and so disgusting and so dangerous and so dishonest
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: that you have to call it out for what it is.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: And you have to do it with equal amounts of
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: passion that they bring. You have to do it with
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: as much passion as they bring cynicism to it. And
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: I think we need to see more of it and
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: more politicians doing it in a way that is that
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: I think feels to the listener and to the audience
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: and to Democrats equivalent to the threat we are facing,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: if that makes sense, equivalent to the conduct that we
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: are trying to combat.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: So I think that the most important ingredient in that
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: speech is exactly what you point out. She called out
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the bullshit, she hit back, and she hit back with passion.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: I think that is how you get noticed, that is
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: how you get people's attention, that is how you make
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: sure that you are drawing on something that people feel
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: in their gut about this moment, particularly Democrats and liberals.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: I also saw a number of people on Twitter, I
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: was tweeted the speech like everyone else did. And a
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: bunch of people said, you know, I'm more conservative, and
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: I still found that speech very persuasive. And I do
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: think that there is a way to direct that kind
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: of passion, because I think, you know, I've made a
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: joke about the moral outrage, but We haven't seen enough
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: of it from Democratic politicians, but we hear it all
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: the time from people, moral outrage. And I think figuring
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: out exactly how to direct it is important. You mentioned
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: her identity. She said a few times in that speech,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I am a straight, white, Christian, suburban mom. Part of
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: what I think what she was trying to do is
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: she refused to let Republicans own being Christian or being
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: moms or being suburbanites, right? She happens to identify all
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: of those things, but she redefined why you can be
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: all of those things and still be a progressive. She
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: talked about universal values that the vast majority of people
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: in this country should hold, right? She talked about, she
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: wants to raise her daughter to be curious, empathetic, and kind.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: And she talked about how children, we want our children
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: to feel seen and heard and supported and not targeted
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: and marginalized. And that is a feeling that every parent
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: who has children wants for their child. that is more
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: universal than what you might hear from any one party.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: And then she did something that Anat Shankar Osorio and
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Heather McGee and everyone who believes in sort of the
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: race class narrative has tried to tell Democrats to do,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: which is at one point towards the end of the speech,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: she says, people who are different are not the reason
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: that our roads are in bad shape or that healthcare
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: costs are too high or that teachers are leaving the profession.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: And what she's trying to say is that the other party,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: that other state senator, who sent out that fundraising email,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: she is trying to divide us and she is trying
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: to target people for the purpose of political gain and
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: to distract from the problems that everyone in this country
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: wants to solve. They are the ones obsessed with sex
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: and sexual identity and race and all of these other issues.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: That is what the Republicans are obsessed with right now.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: They're obsessed with these culture wars when there are a
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: lot of people in this country who who just want
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: to be respected and seen and supported. And then they
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: want a government that's going to fix the fucking problems
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: in this country that people really care about. And they have,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: you know, Heather and Anat and all those people have
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: found through a lot of research that that message, calling
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: out the bullshit, calling out their divisions, calling out their intentions,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: and then talking about a lot of the economic challenges
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: that all of us face is actually the most persuasive,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: not just for our own base, but for a lot
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: of voters in the middle.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: What, I think it's at the core of the race
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: class narrative and at sort of the appeal of this
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: speech is that it takes an issue where Republicans are
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: trying to divide us and uses it as a way
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: to unify people, to bring people together, to demonstrate that
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: the broader viewpoint is what is within the American values
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: or family values, is to define them broadly in a
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: way that is appealing to lots of people. And I
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: think the political opportunity here, and this connects to Republicans
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: fighting over a tax break for Disney. Frankly, I have
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: no idea whether Disney should have a tax break. Our
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: policies are generally overly favorable to corporations anyway. But the
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: fact that they're focusing on Disney and the private lives
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: of Pluto and Mickey or whatever else you want to
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: do is evidence that they are focused on everything other
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: than the things you care about. They're not focused on inflation.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: They are not focused on the economy. They're not focused
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: on gas prices. They're not focused on health care. They're
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: not focused on the cost of your prescription drugs. Democrats
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: on the overwhelming majority of these issues, even putting aside
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: even however you poll Florida, but that is an argument.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: I know the Florida law is one that we can
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: win if we try to win it. They have chosen
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: unpopular issues that are low priorities. That is a flashing
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: green light to proceed ahead with confidence and aggressive messaging
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: about it, right? All this whole thing about you. Democrats
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: do the culture wars. There's a whole thing in Playbook
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: about how this speech is causing Democrats to revisit what
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: they take on the culture wars. And that conversation is
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: always happening completely removed from people who actually engage in politics.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: When your opponent does unpopular things that people do not
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: think are important, you hammer that home. And that is
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: not a choice between inflation and culture wars or gas
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: prices and standing up for kids and teachers. It's all
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: part of the same thing. And this speech should be
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: a roadmap for people on how to begin to do that.
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: And look, oftentimes I think the conversation is too simplistic.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: And this speech appealed to people within the Democratic Party
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: on all sides of the debates that we've been having.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: People who think Democrats should hit harder. People who think
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Democrats should have a broader appeal. People who think Democrats
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: should excite the base. This speech checked all of those boxes,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: which should show people that it's possible to have an
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: effective and unifying message as a party. Because you could
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: see that people were almost annoyed that they were all
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: agreeing with each other on liking this speech. James Carville
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: liked it, who thought that Democrats were You know, he
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: was like complaining about woke language. He thought it was
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: a textbook example of a speech we should do. Very
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: liberal and progressive people love this speech. People who thought
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: that Democrats aren't fighting hard enough should like this speech, right?
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: So it is totally possible to deliver a message that works,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: that unifies the party, that excites the base, that appeals
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: to a broad group of people, and that is effective.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: And I think that the state senator showed us that
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: during that speech.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Do you know who could give that speech and should
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: give that speech?
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden? Joe Biden. Joe Biden.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's just like, I'm not picking on Joe Biden.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, Joe Biden has a lot of shit on
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: his plate. He has limited opportunities to communicate. Every time
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: he goes out there, he rightly has to talk about
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Ukraine and inflation, all these other things. But as I
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: think about someone who has authentic moral outrage, who has
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: this moral code, who I know is deeply offended by
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: how Republicans are targeting trans kids and gay kids and
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: teachers and everyone else like that, you just know that
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: offends him to his core as a Biden, as he
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: would say. And I think there will be a moment
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: where that comes out. I hope it's sooner rather than later,
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: but it is like, that's exactly what we want to see.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: And that would be, I think it would get equal
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: levels of praise. Joe Biden has never been the most
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: enthusiastic culture warrior, but he is a very willing and
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: very powerful moral advocate. And this is an opportunity for
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: moral advocacy that I think would have political value.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: And someone who, like our old boss, does not want
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: to cede the ground of patriotism or religion or, you know,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: or any of those things to Republicans, right? Like this
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: goes back to shades of Obama's 2004 convention speech when
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: he stood up and decided that like Republicans weren't going
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: to get to own patriotism, that he was going to
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: talk about why he loves this country, but that he
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: loves this country for a bunch of reasons that progressives
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: found appealing because of our diversity, right? And so, like,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: I do think that not ceding the ground to Republicans
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: on a whole bunch of these issues and redefining them
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: as what progressives deeply believe in is key to this
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: whole messaging conversation. So there was a Politico story this
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: week that has White House officials saying that even though
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Biden has been consumed by Ukraine, as you just mentioned,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: He's about to refocus on the economy and inflation. We
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: got to pivot. We're working up to a pivot. And
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: there's also a bunch of advice from Democratic strategists that
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: can sort of be summed up by Simon Rosenberg, who's
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: quoted in the piece. And he said, Democrats have one
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: overriding political communications priority now. We have to convince voters
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: that things are better because of our time in power.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: What do you think of that advice?
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Look, Simon's a very, very smart guy. And he's not
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: wrong that convincing voters voters that their decision to put
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Democrats in power has mattered in their lives and that
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: things are better than if Donald Trump and Republicans had
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: stayed in power. I just think that is necessary but
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: insufficient to get where we need to go. People are
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: incredibly frustrated at the economy and that every poll, every
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: focus group shows that is driven by legitimate, real feelings
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: about inflation. Not We can argue about the media coverage,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: which has certainly not done a great job of covering
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: the nuances of the economy. There's a Navigator poll out
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: today which shows that only 3 in 10 Americans think
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: the economy has created more jobs than it's lost in
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: the last year, which is sort of a searing indictment
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: of the media and just the ecosystem in the United States.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: But it's hard to tell people things. We may think
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: so much better if they don't think things are better.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: So you have to, I think, at least explain what
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: you've done. But the point of that is not to say,
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: please thank me at the polls in November. It is
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: to say, we said we were going to do those things.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: We did those things. They were good things. And you
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: should use that as a reason to believe us when
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: we say we're going to do these other good things, right?
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: It is proof of what you are going to do,
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: not a reason in and of itself to get votes
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: in November. It's not Dems deliver. It's Dems are going
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: to deliver. And you, the reason, you know, we're going
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: to deliver is because we, we did deliver, right. It
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: is a little more nuanced and sort of hashtag political advocacy.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Again, what's more effective as a message, your concerns aren't
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: real and you've been duped by the media or I'll
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: fight to lower your costs. My opponent wants to raise them.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just, it's really, look, people, you know, that,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: that poll that you just mentioned.
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: So people's views of how many jobs the economy created
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: are off. But there was also the, you know, the
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Navigator poll also showed this week that a majority of
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Americans feel concerned about their own financial situation.
• 25:59
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: You know, and it's one thing to say, oh, the
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: media didn't quite cover the jobs boom well enough. And
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: so people's perceptions are warped. Totally true. But you can't
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: tell people that their own views of their own financial
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: situation are wrong and that they have just been duped
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: when that is what they feel when they are looking
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: at prices of things. And I think all you can
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: do there is say, look, again, Rick Scott wants to
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: raise taxes on 100 million people and take your health
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: care away. That's their plan. We have a different plan.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: You elect more Democrats. You give us a bigger majority.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: We're going to lower your costs on health care, on
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: prescription drugs, on energy, across a whole bunch of issues.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: The reason why I think this is hard is Biden's
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: been out. He's done a bunch of events on things
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: the bipartisan infrastructure deal has delivered. But the reason that
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: is hard, and I think I have been very excited
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: to see the Biden White House more aggressively start drawing
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: contrast with Republicans over the Brick Scott tax plan, is
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: I was sort of struck by something Ezra Klein said
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: in this really great interview he did with our friends
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Anant Shankarasario and Sean McElwee on his pod. And in general,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: we don't recommend non-crooked media pods on this pod, but
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: we will in this case because I think it was
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: an excellent conversation. But Ezra said- You can only make
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: politics about the issues and controversies that unleash enough energy
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: to capture public attention. And that is a thing that
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: should be imprinted on the brains of every person who
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: works in politics, which is, you know, you see this
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: in that Navigator poll. Everyone loves the Biden economic agenda,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: except the problem is the Biden economic agenda, because it
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: is not in danger of becoming a law anytime soon,
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: is not something that is going to capture public attention.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: So you have to frame it in a way to
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: capture public attention. The way you do that is with conflict.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: And I actually think that that brings us back to
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: that speech we were just talking about, because what is
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: capturing public attention right now are these culture wars. You
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: have to connect those culture wars to the things you
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: want to talk about, the things that you want to
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: do and the things Republicans want to do that people
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: don't like. And so it is combining all of those things.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: And you have to work from what is getting attention.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: And you're not just going to be a go around
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: and just saying something is different than having people hear things.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Right. If Mallory McMorrow got up there and started yelling
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: about how the roads haven't been fixed and health care
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: costs are too high and teasers are leaving and she
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: didn't mention any of this, none of us would know
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: that that speech happened, who weren't in the room at
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: the time. Even though that would have been a very
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: popular message should it have been polled. Voters would say, yes,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: I'm very glad that she said that. I find that
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: very popular. But we live in a world where you
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: have to break through with your message through a very
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: fractured media environment. And the only way to do that
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: is to hitch your wagon to some of the culture
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: war debates that are happening right now. And by the way,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: it's good to stand up for children, you know, and
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: make sure that children are heard and seen and supported
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: and not targeted and marginalized, which is what she said. OK,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: when we come back, I will talk to Dr. Bob
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Wachter about where we are in the pandemic. This week,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: a Trump-appointed federal judge in Florida struck down the federal
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: mask requirement on planes, trains, buses, and other forms of transportation.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: And while the Biden administration has announced that they will
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: appeal the ruling, the mandate is currently gone and may
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: not come back. Here to talk to us about how
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: to think about assessing our risk and our pandemic response
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: going forward, the chair of UC San Francisco's Department of Medicine, Dr.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Bob Wachter. Dr. Wachter, welcome back to the pod.
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: It's a great pleasure to be here, John. Thank you.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: So, The DOJ is appealing the rules uh because the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: cdc clearly wants the authority to protect people during a
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: public health emergency which it seems obvious to me that
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: they should have i know i know you agree but
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: the cdc was also about to reassess whether the mask
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: mandate was still necessary in a few weeks anyway um
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Under what conditions do you think it would be appropriate
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: for the CDC to drop the mandate?
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's a tough call. First of all, absolutely.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: I think the idea that a judge could take away
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: the authority of a federal agency to enact a mandate
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: in the middle of a public health crisis is really dangerous.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: Dangerous for the next pandemic, for a bad variant. So
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: I'm glad that they're appealing it. In terms of what
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: the CDC should do or what's the right call, I
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: think we've gotten to a point where it's a closer
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: call than it was six months ago, in part because
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: individuals have so many tools at their disposal to keep
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: themselves safe. So I think the reason they kicked the
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: can down the road till May 3rd was to see
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: what's happening with this mini surge. And I think the
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: answer is we're seeing an uptick in cases, but not
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: seeing an uptick in hospitalizations. And so I think it's
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: a reasonable decision to pull back the mandate. Certainly, A
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: lot of the public does not want a mandate. And
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: I think individuals, for the most part, can keep themselves
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: pretty safe on public transit.
• 30:59
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: So that's that's sort of the public policy on this.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about our individual risk. Like I've seen some
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: experts say that, you know, it's less risky to go
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: maskless on a plane than it is in a crowded restaurant, especially,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: you know, when the plane is in the air because
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: the ventilation is actually quite good. What are your thoughts
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: on that individual risk assessment on a plane?
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, to make a decision about whether to
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: wear a mask on a plane requires that you multiply
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: about 22 fractions times each other. And we should have
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: all listened in fourth grade. And when they tried to
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: teach us how to do that, it's really hard. I mean,
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: here's my general rule. My general rule is that I'm
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: now comfortable not wearing a mask in indoor spaces if
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: I'm with a group of people who I know to
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: be fully vaccinated and I know would not be there
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: if they felt sick. And it's worth it not to
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: wear a mask. So eating dinner with friends or family,
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: there's no way that I figured out how to eat
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: dinner without taking the mask off. To me, that's worth it.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: It's worth the risk. If I got COVID from that,
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: I'd be pissed. But I would say, all right, that
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: was a reasonable decision. To be in a closed tube
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: for six hours with 150 strangers whose vaccination status you
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: don't know and keep your mask off, I think is
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: riskier than I want to be. So compared to an
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: aluminum tube where you're sitting shoulder to shoulder with 150 people,
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: a plane is safer than another version of that that
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: didn't have such good ventilation and filtration. But I think
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: it's important that people get a little magical about this
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: and say the plane is perfectly safe because it's got
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: such good ventilation. It's not perfectly safe. There have been
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: plenty of cases of transmission on planes. To me, with
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: the amount of COVID in the environment, in a flight
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: with 150 people on it, there's a pretty good chance
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: that someone on the plane has COVID. Maybe they're the
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: person sitting next to you. I don't particularly want to
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: talk to the people next to me. Maybe I'm antisocial.
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: So I prefer keeping my mask on during the flight.
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: I'll take it off for a minute or two to
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: eat something or chug a drink. But that's my general
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: take on it, that I think it's reasonable to not
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: have a mandate and force everyone to do it. But
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: for an individual, I think the risk is high enough
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: that it's worth still being safe in closed indoor spaces
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: with people whose vaccination status you don't know.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Now, say you're someone who's decided, OK, I'm definitely going
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: to wear a mask on a plane still and I
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: want to wear a well-fitting KN95 or N95 on the plane. Now,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: you're a little extra nervous because the mask mandate has
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: dropped and there's a bunch of people who aren't wearing
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: masks on that plane. like how worried should you be?
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Because part of me thinks, look, before when the mask
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: mandate was still in effect, it was a mask mandate
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: that like cloth masks counted, which we know now with
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Omicron aren't all that protective. People were taking their mask
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: down eating for, you know, an hour at a time
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: here and there. So if you, can one way masking
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: with a well-fitted KN95 or 95 still keep you pretty
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: protected on a plane if a lot of other people
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: aren't wearing masks?
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. And part of the reason I know that is
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: I'll go into the hospital to take care of a
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: patient who I know has COVID. Not like on an
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: airplane where the person might have COVID. I know they
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: have COVID. I wear a well-fitting N95. And the number
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: of cases of transmission from infected patients to healthcare providers
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: is really quite small. When we saw a lot of
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: it early in the pandemic, it was before there was testing.
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: It was when hospitals are chaotic. But it doesn't happen
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: very much. If you are fully vaccinated and boosted, and
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: you are wearing a well-fitting N95 or equivalent, I think
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: you're safe. And I agree with you completely that it's
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: not like everyone was masking perfectly two days ago and
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: now they're not. People seem to have this ability to
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: eat and drink for six hours at a time. It's
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: really impressive. So I sort of went on to the
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: plane knowing that it's safer than it would be because
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: most of the people are wearing masks. But many of
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: them are wearing crummy masks. Many of them are not
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: wearing them well. They're eating, they're drinking. So I think
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: it's not exactly right that it went from incredibly safe
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: to incredibly unsafe over the course of a day. Yeah.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: I sometimes worry that we spend a lot of time
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: and energy talking and arguing about masks when by far
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: the most effective mitigations against Omicron, especially, are boosters and
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: treatments like Paxlovid, which not everyone has knowledge about or
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: easy access to. What do you think?
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: Well, I think it's an and rather than an or.
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: I don't like the duality that some people are pushing,
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: which is like vaccines are more important than masks. I
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: think that's right. I think everybody should get vaccinated and
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: should get boosted. I do think that wearing a mask
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: in a risky space on top of it is reasonable.
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: And we don't really talk about, you know, you should
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: use either an airbag or seatbelts. We say that the
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: combo is better than either one alone. And so I
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: think the most important thing by far is that you
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: are vaccinated and boosted. Certainly, the first booster is a no-brainer.
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: The second booster is a little bit closer of a call.
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: I got mine. I think it's reasonable to get if
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: you're eligible. I think it's reasonable to wait as well
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: if you're at very low risk. PaxLivid is really, really effective.
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: So it's another tool that if you do happen to
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: get COVID, if you can get access to PaxLivid, it
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: lowers your chance of a bad outcome by 90%. So
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: it's the combo of all of these layers of protection
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: that really is why COVID is no longer nearly as
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: great a threat as it was a year ago. But yeah,
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: at a public policy level, if you could only push
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: one thing, you would push vaccination and boosts. But I
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: don't think we can walk and chew gum. We can
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: push that, we can push packs of it, but also
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: tell people, particularly if you're at high risk, it is
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: reasonable to wear a mask in situations that are risky.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: So just zooming out on where we are in the
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: pandemic right now, it seems like about half the country
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: was infected with BA1. BA2 is even more transmissible, is
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: now driving case increases among the people who didn't get BA1.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: I noticed yesterday that we get now BA4 and BA5
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: are even more transmissible than BA2, and they're starting to
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: drive case increases in South Africa, which means that, you know,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: weeks from now, they'll eventually be here too. You got
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: places like China instituting... inhumane lockdowns that still aren't preventing
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: an Omicron surge there. Like, it does seem like this
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: thing is going to keep spreading and keep becoming more
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: transmissible until it finds every last person. Like, how do
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: you agree with that? And then if so, how should
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: that inform our behavior and our public policy?
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't agree that it's going to find all
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: of us. I'm two years into it. I haven't gotten COVID,
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: I don't think, and I'd like to keep it that way,
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: and I'm going to do my darndest to keep it
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: that way within reason. I'm traveling freely. I'm having dinner
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: with friends, but I still am trying to be careful
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: in risky situations. So the picture you just painted is
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: pretty depressing, but probably not that far off. And the
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: thing that might be the most depressing is... Prior surges,
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: let's say there's a new variant that is more transmissible
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: and we're seeing an uptick in cases. Prior surges then
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: led to a reaction on the part of policymakers and individuals.
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: It's like, oh man, it's coming. It's getting bad. I
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: am going to be careful again, or I'm going to
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: get that booster. It's pretty clear now that for many people,
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: they are quote over it. And that's really dangerous because
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: it means they will not, even if you say it's
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: okay to begin letting your guard down now, because the
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: caseloads are lower and hospitals are not overwhelmed, part of
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: our protection is that we'll act rationally if things start
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: going sour. And that's my worry. That's my biggest worry, actually,
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: that people will be complacent, will just be tired of everything.
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: They're fatigued. That's understandable. Nobody wants to wear a mask.
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: But we will not react appropriately if we start seeing
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: a significant uptick in cases. And I had a reporter
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: ask me the other day, like, when are we going
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: to stop talking about this? And I said, when you
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: stop calling me. It's like, I mean, it is going
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: to be a thing for the foreseeable future. I think
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: we have gotten to the stage where it's no longer
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: the first item on the news every day. People are
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: beginning to want to get on with their lives. That's understandable.
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I do think we're going to have this
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: sort of rolling set of threats that come through. And
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: we're going to have to learn to live with a
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: version of this. This may be about as good as
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: it gets the way we are now for the foreseeable future,
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: which is a pretty terrible thing to think, but it's
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: a hell of a lot better than it was a
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: year ago.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Right. And I do think even if not everyone gets infected,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: it does seem like most people will get exposed. And
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: it seems like the most important thing is if you're
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: going to get exposed to COVID, you want to do
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: so where you are vaccinated, up to date on all
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: your boosters, you make sure you have access to treatment
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: if you need it. And it does seem like that message,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: because we're so far behind on boosters in this country,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: hasn't been getting through. What do you think the federal
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: government should be doing right now that they're not currently doing?
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: I think they're doing a pretty darn good job. It's confusing.
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: People are tired. The partisanship is really problematic. I think
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: figuring out is there a better booster out there is
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: really important because the latest studies of the second booster,
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: which showed that two months after it, it was no
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: longer working to prevent symptomatic infection. That's pretty disheartening. So
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: it does seem like Omicron has figured out its way,
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: at least partly around our vaccines. We got to come
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: up with better ones. There's a lot of research going
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: into it. Paxlovid or maybe even a better version of
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: Paxlovid is really important. So making it as freely available
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: as possible to people and getting the word out. I mean,
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: there are a lot of doctors that don't really understand
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: it and aren't using it. Well, I mean, it's a
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: miracle drug. It lowers your probability of getting super sick
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: and dying by 90%, including in immunosuppressed people. So that's
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: really important. I think the messaging on masking has to
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: be better. Even if you don't have to, here's why
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: you should in these kinds of settings. and giving people
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: permission to say, and here's why it's reasonable not to
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: in these kinds of settings. It's not like we're being
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: doctrinaire and you need to act like it's March 2020.
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: I think all of those are really important. And unfortunately,
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: it's not one thing. And then thinking about this in
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: terms of the long haul, what is our system to
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: monitor variants, to know that things are getting worse when
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: there's so much home testing, you can't really trust the
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: case counts. That's important. Ventilation is important. There's a lot
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: to do here. But I think the administration has handled
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: things really well given the complexity of all of the
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: variables and all of the moving targets. And the minute
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: you think you have a handle on it, there's a
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: new variant and a new curveball. It's pretty tricky.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So last question, just maybe your best guess on
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: timelines for a couple important developments that we need here. One,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: you mentioned Omicron specific boosters. Do you think maybe by
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: the fall, they'll be ready with those or?
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there was a study, or at least Moderna released
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: some early results the other day of a rejiggered booster
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: that was a mix of the original and targeting a
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: part of Omicron. And it seemed to work better than
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: the original vaccines. And that's the first time. They've been
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: playing around with rejiggered vaccines for months. Makes all the
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: sense in the world that they'd be able to come
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: up with something better and more targeted. None of them
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: seem to work better than the original. So this does
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: seem to work better. My guess is if you, you know,
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: I just got my second boost two weeks ago. When
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: it's time for my third boost, my guess, which will
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: probably be the summer or fall, my guess is I'll
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: be getting a different vaccine than the one I got
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: two weeks ago.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Vaccines for kids under five. I have a 21-month-old. Been
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: really waiting for this one. What do you think, by
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: the summer?
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: Like, daddy, I want my vaccine.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, they keep pushing back the timeline. I
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: think they're working on it really, really hard. You got
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: to get it right. I mean, you got to get
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: the dose right so it's not too high and causes
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: fever in all the kids, which is a problem. Obviously
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: not too low, which was what happened on the first test.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: It seems like they're closing in on it. It seems
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: like summer is a reasonable timeline for that.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: And then the last one, I know a lot of
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: people are concerned about this, long COVID treatments or even
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: just studies about how much vaccines reduce your risk of
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: long COVID. in the Omicron era?
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: I mean, the problem with long COVID is almost by definition,
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: you have to wait a while to see what happens
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: and study it. I now think about long COVID in
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: two different buckets. And this is different than I would
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: have said two months ago. I now think about what
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: are the chances that I'm going to feel crummy three
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: months after I got my infection. And I think the
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: best studies say that is somewhere between 10 and 40%
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: of people will still feel, have a symptom, brain fog, fatigue, something.
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: a few months out, and that that risk is lowered
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: by about half with vaccination, not to zero, so still
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: 5% or 10%. The second bucket for long COVID, which
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: I didn't worry about that much two months ago, is
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: in the last month, there have been four studies that
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: looked at the one-year outcome of people who got COVID.
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: And when you compare them to people who didn't have COVID,
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: the rate of heart attacks, the rate of strokes, the
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: rate of blood clots, the rate of diabetes were all higher.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: So there may be, now this was pre-Omicron because we
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: don't know what the one year outcome of Omicron is
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: because it hasn't been around for a year. So maybe
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: Omicron will be more benign. Maybe Omicron in a vaccinated
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: person will be more benign. But I think at least
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: for me, people say, why are you so wimpy about
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: getting COVID? Don't you know it's quote, just like a cold?
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: First of all, it's not just like a cold in
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: a lot of people. Second of all, I really don't
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: want to get long COVID. That seems pretty unpleasant. Third
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: of all, I really cannot say with any degree of
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: security that there is not an increased risk, maybe comparable
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: to being a smoker or having high blood pressure, of
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: having some bad long-term outcomes, increasing my chance of a
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: heart attack or a stroke or diabetes. Until we know
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: that for sure, I think you have to respect this virus,
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: even if we've gotten to the point that we're not
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: as worried that you're going to get super sick and
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: die the way we were a year ago. More research.
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, they're putting a lot of money into it.
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: I think we will learn more and more of it
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: about it as it goes along. It's a great reason
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: to be vaccinated. Not only it lowers the probability of
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: long COVID, but probably more importantly, it lowers the probability
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: you get COVID. You can't get long COVID if you
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: didn't get COVID. So we need to know more about it.
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: At this point, there really is no proven treatment for
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: people with long COVID. There are long COVID clinics that
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: are trying a whole variety of things. And I think
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: it's almost sort of experimenting on each one, trying stuff
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: to see whether it works. But That is what I
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: now am afraid of from a COVID infection much more
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: than getting very sick and dying of the acute infection.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: Dr. Wachter, always appreciate your analysis and advice. I know
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: you got a standing O at Love It or Leave
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: It in San Francisco a couple weeks ago. Will we
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: see you at the Pod Save America show in Oakland
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: in June?
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: I would love to be there. That would be great
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: if I'm going to get another standing O. My wife
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: was sitting there like, oh my God, people actually pay
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: attention to you.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: If that's how we get you there, that's how we
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: get you there. We'll promise the standing up.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: Thanks so much, John. Thanks, Dr.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Rockner. Take care. All right, we're back. And before we go,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: our chief take officer, Elijah Cohen, is back for one
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: more round of Take Appreciators.
• 46:35
  Speaker 7: All right.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: Look at this, Elijah. Nice hat, man. You go to
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: one Red Sox game. That's all it took?
• 46:43
  Speaker 7: Yeah, well, I had a great time.
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: Red Sox are a historical organization, and I'm staunchly an
• 46:49
  Speaker 5: anti-Nets guy, so I'm going for the Celtics right now.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Have your feelings about Tom Brady changed at all?
• 46:56
  Speaker 8: No.
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: Guys, great to be back. Welcome to Take Appreciators. I'm
• 47:02
  Speaker 5: going to run through some takes that have come to
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: you fresh out of the content industrial complex.
• 47:06
  Speaker 7: The producers have seen these takes. John and Dan have not.
• 47:10
  Speaker 5: They'll give the reactions and rate them on a scale
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: of one to four politicos, with four politicos being the worst.
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: Thanks to Judd Apatow for pointing out that we never
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: established what is the wrong end of that scale in
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: this setup. So, John and Dan, are you ready?
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: I'm ready as I'll ever be.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: I've never been more ready for something so important.
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: John, as you noted at the beginning of the show,
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: we're going to start with Jen Psaki and Peter Doocy.
• 47:35
  Speaker 5: We want to do this segment today because Jen Psaki
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: was on for our DC live show last week, and
• 47:40
  Speaker 5: that appearance generated some takes. In case you missed it,
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: y'all asked if Peter Doocy was actually a stupid son
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: of a bitch. Jen said he works for Fox, and
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: they give questions that might make anyone sound like a
• 47:51
  Speaker 5: stupid son of a bitch.
• 47:53
  Speaker 7: And from that quote, discourse was born.
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: So there's a tweet.
• 48:01
  Speaker 5: Fox is the only cable news network Jen Psaki hasn't
• 48:04
  Speaker 5: negotiated a fat check with to go work for. How
• 48:07
  Speaker 5: is language like this towards Peter Doocy, quote, respecting everyone
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: and healing the soul of America? This is no better
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: than the Trump administration and how they treated the press.
• 48:16
  Speaker 7: And it's gross. Any guesses for who said that?
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe that is ex-View co-host Meghan McCain.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Very good.
• 48:27
  Speaker 7: That's correct.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: I will say that Meghan McCain is my go-to always
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: intake appreciator. If there is a dumb take that I
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: cannot figure out who it could possibly be, I feel
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: like that's the safest bet.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: For me, it's Hugh Hewitt. He's always a safe place
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: to land.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Does Hugh Hewitt still exist?
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I stopped. I muted him at one
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: point because I was fighting with him too much online.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: I was going to say. I realized that that was
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: a stupid fucking thing for me to do. So now
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Hugh Hewitt doesn't exist to me. That's what the mute
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: button is, people. You just mute them and they're gone forever.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Do you know what the journalistic version of the mute
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: button is? The Washington Post op-ed page. I'm going to
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: be in so much trouble for that. There are really
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: good people who work there. If you write good stuff,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: you won't be muted, Perry Bacon. We love you.
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: Perry's great. Perry's great. Anyway, I just want to say
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: something about the... Socky Doocy thing. Like, I can't believe
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: how many takes there have been on this and how
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: much that broke through. Like, I got home from the road,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: saw a bunch of family and friends, you know, have
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: been talking about the news for a week on the
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: road during these shows. The only thing that broke through
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: to people, they were like, oh, wait, wasn't that your show?
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: with Jen Psaki got in trouble for what she said
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: with Peter Doocy. By the way, first of all, this
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: is all Dan's fault for setting up Jen with that question.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: But then Jen goes out of her way after she
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: makes that comment to say, I know that this might
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: not be popular with this crowd and I might get
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: booed here, but Peter Doocy, and then she tells this
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: wonderful story about Peter Doocy and how he showed grace
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: when Joe Biden called him a stupid son of a
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: bitch and how he's nice and Really went out on
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: a limb there with our liberal crowd at the Pod
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Save America show and did not get any credit for that.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Did not get any credit for that. Just got a
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: bunch of shit and bad faith takes from people like
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Meghan McCain.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: My takeaway from this is my new saying, riffing off
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: of Ezra here, which is you can only make podcasts
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: about the issues and controversies that unleash enough energy to
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: capture public attention. And that is obviously Peter Doocy. So
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: that's coming back again.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: I'm only giving Meghan McCain two politicos here because I
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: don't think she was actually trying to troll. I think
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: she was just lazily reading through Twitter, not even looking
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: at the real context, and just decided to get outraged
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: for no good reason. So I don't even think she
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: was trying that hard on that one.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to give her one politico. I don't
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: think Meghan McCain has ever tried to troll intentionally once
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: in her life. I just think her natural state of
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: being is unselfaware trolling. And so this is just another
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: example of that. So you don't get a lot of
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: credit for me. Her resting troll face. Resting troll commentary.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: I was going to say resting troll feed. Resting troll feed.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: That's what I would have done.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 51:17
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 51:17
  Speaker 5: Really bad takes, but always in good faith. Do you
• 51:21
  Speaker 5: guys have any other takes you want to get out
• 51:23
  Speaker 5: on Saki? I know we branded this one as a
• 51:24
  Speaker 5: Saki only segment, but we're just doing one before.
• 51:27
  Speaker 7: We move on to some other stuff.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Let's move on. Let's move on. Yeah.
• 51:29
  Speaker 7: Okay, great.
• 51:30
  Speaker 5: Well, This is a first for Take Appreciators. It's a chyron.
• 51:33
  Speaker 5: I know what you're thinking, like a chyron? Like, come on,
• 51:37
  Speaker 5: just trust me on it. This is very related to
• 51:41
  Speaker 5: the A Block where we talked about the culture war.
• 51:44
  Speaker 7: Here's the chyron.
• 51:46
  Speaker 5: Ron DeSantis nets more wins as he energizes the right
• 51:50
  Speaker 5: with his anti-woke pro-freedom strategy ahead of 2024. Any guesses
• 51:55
  Speaker 5: to what network aired this chyron?
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: CNN +. We will never know R.I.P. Quibi R.I.P. CNN
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: Plus R.I.P. Not easy to start a media company is it?
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: I mean it has to be Fox or OAN or
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: Newsmax because if it's a mainstream outlet then.
• 52:27
  Speaker 5: Oof If it was on Fox News Max, it wouldn't
• 52:31
  Speaker 5: be in this segment, but that is straight up CNN
• 52:33
  Speaker 5: right there. What?
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: CNN minus?
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: CNN classic.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: I need to speak to the manager on that. Who
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: the fuck let that happen?
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: What show was that on?
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: Shame. Shame, CNN. You should be more ashamed of that, Kyron,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: than CNN Plus.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: Unlike CNN Plus, that Kyron will live forever.
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: They aired the podium in 2015. It feels like we're
• 52:57
  Speaker 5: going back to Oh, man.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's bad.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: Notches more wins. What is he winning? You know what?
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: I'm giving that a full playbook. That gets four politicos.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: It gets a full playbook.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give it three. I'm going to leave
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: some room for growth here.
• 53:12
  Speaker 7: All right.
• 53:14
  Speaker 5: This is going to need some background because it's about
• 53:17
  Speaker 5: the libs of TikTok Twitter account and that whole story.
• 53:20
  Speaker 7: That's going on right now.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.
• 53:22
  Speaker 7: Buckle up. For all you normal people out there who
• 53:25
  Speaker 7: have puffed grass in the last month.
• 53:28
  Speaker 5: Libs of TikTok is a conservative social media account that
• 53:30
  Speaker 5: takes fringe points of view and feeds them into shows
• 53:33
  Speaker 5: like Tucker Carlson for them to air in montages. A
• 53:36
  Speaker 5: Washington Post story this week revealed that it was run
• 53:38
  Speaker 5: by a January 6th attendee because of course it is.
• 53:42
  Speaker 5: And then that Washington Post article got a lot of
• 53:44
  Speaker 5: bad faith backlash from conservatives.
• 53:46
  Speaker 7: Are you guys with me so far? Need me to
• 53:48
  Speaker 7: explain any of that again?
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: I think I got it. I think, yeah, I'm following
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: the string.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got it.
• 53:53
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 53:54
  Speaker 5: Now here, there's so many bad takes about this account
• 53:57
  Speaker 5: and then the story about who's behind the account, but
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: this one's special. It's from RealClearPolitics and the title of
• 54:05
  Speaker 5: the article is, The New Class Chasm in the Culture Wars.
• 54:11
  Speaker 5: This piece argues that the Washington Post and other liberals
• 54:13
  Speaker 5: refuse to engage with the actual content being posted on
• 54:15
  Speaker 5: lives of TikTok, which I suppose is an interesting point
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: if you're a fucking idiot. That leads us to this quote.
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: Like so many of our culture wars, This one is
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: about class and the class chasm separating politicians and pundits
• 54:30
  Speaker 5: and journalists from average Americans. It's that class chasm that's
• 54:34
  Speaker 5: really being obscured in the erasure of the videos from
• 54:37
  Speaker 5: lives of TikTok.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: What does class have to do with this at all?
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: I don't even understand that take.
• 54:45
  Speaker 7: I'm confused by it.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a really dumb fucking take. One politico. Yeah,
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: it seemed really stupid. I was waiting for some kind
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: of like Josh Hawley, Marco Rubio, we're the party of
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: working people against the elite libs kind of thing, but
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: they didn't even try to make that argument. Lazy. Try better.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: I was trying to find while we were going through
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: that terrible take what I thought was a good take
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: about this, because you know the big fight over this
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: is that Taylor Lorenz identified the person behind it and
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: she was accused of doxing them. And Matt Iglesias had
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: a tweet that said that There was a time when
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: entire cities would get doxed in one book at a time,
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: and there was a number that you could call to
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: dox anyone you asked for.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: It was called the dox pages.
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: The dox pages.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: But as evidence that Matt Iglesias needs to listen to
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: Offline more than anyone I have ever met, I am
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: like 700 tweets through his feed, and I haven't gotten
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: to his tweet from yesterday about this. I was like
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. I looked down, and the
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: next tweet I see is one hour ago.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, no, that's a, it's a log off.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: They'll definitely log off.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: It was a great tweet though.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: Great tweet. Great tweet. Yeah, no, there are, there used
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: to be phone books. You could look up people on
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: them and you get their whole addresses.
• 56:01
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 56:02
  Speaker 5: I mean, the discourse on this whole thing has been
• 56:04
  Speaker 5: just mind numbing and terrible. And I'm sincerely jealous of you.
• 56:07
  Speaker 5: If you're listening to the show being like, what is
• 56:09
  Speaker 5: any of these words?
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: Were you living in blissful ignorance of something stupid? Well,
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: let us change that. Thanks for joining us on pod.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: Save America.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: I'm going to admit something that doesn't speak well of
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: me and is very not offline because this whole story
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: that Taylor wrote is like right in my wheelhouse and
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: it's been a busy week and I haven't even gotten
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: to read the whole story yet. I haven't gotten to
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: read this. I've done the thing that I hate, which
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: is I've seen so many takes on the story without
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: reading the story itself. Always a bad thing to do.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: Do you want to use this as an opportunity to
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: push your excellent interview with Taylor Rantz on Offline?
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: I have an excellent interview with Taylor Lorenz on Offline,
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: which is a podcast you should check out that comes
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: out every Sunday. So go check it out if you're
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: still listening to this podcast.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: And if you are, you definitely need to listen to
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: that other podcast.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Chief Take Officer Elijah Cohn. Thank you, Dr.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: Bob Wachter, for walking us through the latest on COVID.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: And thanks, everyone, for listening. Hope you all have a
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: great weekend. And go read that great Taylor Lorenz story
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: in the Washington Post and then listen to her on Offline.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: And then maybe take a walk outside.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: Then take a walk. Don't scroll through Matt Iglesias' tweets.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: All right. Bye, everyone.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: Bye, everyone. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: Andy Gardner Bernstein. Our producer is Haley Muse, and Olivia
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Martinez is our associate producer. It's mixed and edited by
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis sound engineer the show.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Sandy Gerrard, Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support. And to
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: slash crookedmedia.