Latest / Deep Transformation / Learning From Death and Dying: Lessons for All of Us From Zen Hospice with Frank Ostaseski

Transcript

Learning From Death and Dying: Lessons for All of Us From Zen Hospice with Frank Ostaseski · Deep Transformation

0:00
In
0:00
this
0:00
conversation,
0:01
we
0:01
explored
0:02
death
0:02
and
0:02
dying
0:03
with
0:03
Frank
0:03
Ostaseski.
0:05
Death
0:05
does
0:05
not
0:05
have
0:05
to
0:05
be
0:06
a
0:06
bummer.
0:06
I
0:06
believe
0:06
you
0:07
will
0:07
really
0:07
enjoy
0:07
diving
0:08
into
0:08
the
0:08
deep
0:09
end
0:09
of
0:09
the
0:09
pool
0:09
with
0:10
Roger,
0:10
Frank
0:11
and
0:11
myself.
0:16
Welcome
0:16
to
0:16
Deep
0:18
Self,
0:18
Society,
0:19
Spirit,
0:20
Life
0:20
enhancing
0:21
paradigm
0:21
rattling
0:22
conversations
0:23
with
0:23
cutting
0:23
edge
0:24
thinkers,
0:24
contemplatives
0:25
and
0:25
activists.
0:26
With
0:26
Dr.
0:27
Roger
0:27
Walsh
0:27
and
0:28
John
0:28
Dupuy.
0:31
I'm
0:32
Roger
0:32
Walsh
0:32
and
0:33
our
0:33
co
0:33
host
0:33
is
0:34
John
0:34
Dupuis.
0:35
And
0:35
our
0:35
conversation
0:36
today
0:36
is
0:37
about
0:37
the
0:37
transformation
0:38
that
0:38
our
0:38
culture
0:39
has
0:39
been
0:39
undergoing
0:41
in
0:41
a
0:41
much
0:42
needed
0:42
way
0:42
over
0:42
the
0:43
last
0:43
few
0:43
decades
0:44
in
0:44
its
0:44
attitude
0:45
and
0:46
treatment
0:46
of
0:46
the
0:47
dying.
0:48
For
0:48
so
0:48
long,
0:49
our
0:49
culture
0:50
hid
0:51
death
0:51
and
0:51
dying
0:52
from
0:52
our
0:53
presence,
0:54
shoved
0:54
the
0:55
dying
0:55
away
0:55
in
0:56
secluded
0:56
places
0:57
and
0:58
basically
0:58
tried
0:58
to
0:58
admit
0:59
it
0:59
wasn't
0:59
happening.
1:00
That's
1:01
been
1:01
changing
1:01
in
1:02
fortunate
1:02
ways.
1:03
And
1:03
one
1:03
of
1:03
the
1:03
people
1:04
leading
1:04
that
1:05
change
1:05
is
1:06
Frank
1:06
Ostasesky.
1:08
Frank
1:08
is
1:08
with
1:09
us
1:09
today
1:09
and
1:09
he
1:10
is
1:10
the
1:10
founder
1:11
of
1:11
the
1:11
San
1:12
Francisco
1:12
Zen
1:13
Hospice.
1:14
He
1:14
also
1:14
initiated
1:15
the
1:16
Metta
1:17
training
1:17
program.
1:18
Meta,
1:18
the
1:19
Buddhist
1:19
term
1:19
for
1:20
loving
1:20
kindness,
1:20
is
1:21
a
1:21
training
1:21
program
1:22
for
1:23
end
1:23
of
1:23
life
1:23
care
1:24
counselors.
1:25
He's
1:25
also
1:26
author
1:26
of
1:26
the
1:27
incredibly
1:28
credible
1:29
book
1:30
the
1:30
Five
1:32
Discovering
1:33
what
1:33
Death
1:33
Can
1:33
Teach
1:34
Us
1:34
About
1:35
Living
1:35
Fully,
1:36
a
1:36
book
1:36
I'll
1:37
have
1:37
more
1:37
to
1:37
say
1:38
about
1:38
because
1:38
I'm
1:39
absolutely
1:39
blown
1:39
away
1:40
by
1:40
it.
1:41
But
1:41
Frank,
1:42
welcome.
1:42
It's
1:42
a
1:43
delight
1:44
to
1:44
have
1:44
you
1:44
with
1:45
us
1:46
and
1:46
thank
1:47
you
1:47
so
1:47
much.
1:47
And
1:47
perhaps
1:48
we
1:48
can
1:48
begin
1:49
by
1:50
going
1:50
back
1:50
and
1:50
asking,
1:51
what
1:52
was
1:52
it
1:52
that
1:52
drew
1:53
you
1:53
into
1:54
your
1:54
work
1:54
with
1:54
the
1:55
dying?
1:55
Because
1:55
this
1:55
was
1:55
very
1:56
unusual
1:57
when
1:57
you
1:57
started.
1:58
Well,
1:58
first
1:58
of
1:58
all,
1:58
nice
1:59
to
1:59
be
1:59
with
1:59
Raja
1:59
and
1:59
with
2:00
John
2:00
as
2:00
well.
2:01
Well,
2:01
who
2:01
knows
2:02
what
2:02
gets
2:02
us
2:02
to
2:03
one
2:03
particular
2:03
place,
2:03
right?
2:04
So
2:04
many
2:04
causes
2:04
and
2:05
conditions
2:05
contribute
2:05
to
2:06
where
2:06
we
2:06
are
2:06
in
2:06
a
2:06
given
2:07
moment.
2:07
You
2:07
know,
2:09
my
2:09
own
2:09
parents
2:10
died
2:10
when
2:10
I
2:10
was
2:10
quite
2:10
young,
2:11
so
2:11
that
2:11
was
2:11
a
2:11
big
2:12
influence.
2:13
I
2:13
worked
2:13
with
2:13
refugees
2:14
in
2:15
Chiapas
2:15
in
2:16
Southern
2:16
Mexico,
2:17
where
2:17
I
2:17
saw
2:18
a
2:18
lot
2:18
of
2:18
horrible
2:18
dying.
2:19
Another
2:19
great
2:20
big
2:20
influence,
2:21
the
2:22
AIDS
2:22
epidemic
2:22
in
2:23
San
2:23
Francisco,
2:24
you
2:24
know,
2:24
where
2:24
I
2:24
had
2:25
lots
2:25
of
2:25
friends
2:25
dying
2:26
and
2:26
horrible
2:27
deaths,
2:27
actually
2:27
awful
2:28
deaths.
2:28
Many
2:29
times.
2:29
Kubler
2:30
Ross
2:30
was
2:30
an
2:30
important
2:31
mentor.
2:31
So
2:32
all
2:32
of
2:32
these
2:32
things,
2:32
I
2:32
think
2:33
contributed
2:33
to
2:34
my
2:34
work.
2:34
But
2:35
mostly
2:35
I
2:35
thought
2:36
there
2:36
was
2:36
a
2:36
natural
2:37
match,
2:37
Roger,
2:37
between
2:38
people
2:38
cultivating
2:39
what
2:39
we
2:39
might
2:39
call
2:40
the
2:40
listening
2:40
mind
2:41
and
2:41
through
2:41
meditation
2:42
and
2:43
people
2:43
who
2:43
really
2:43
needed
2:44
to
2:44
be
2:44
heard
2:44
at
2:44
least
2:44
once
2:45
in
2:45
their
2:45
lives.
2:45
Folks
2:46
who
2:46
were
2:46
dying
2:47
and
2:48
what
2:48
might
2:48
it
2:48
be
2:48
like
2:48
if
2:49
they
2:49
were
2:49
dying,
2:50
surrounded
2:51
by
2:51
love
2:51
and
2:52
calmness
2:52
rather
2:52
than
2:54
fear.
2:55
A
2:56
beautiful
2:56
question
2:57
and
2:57
a
2:58
question,
2:58
it
2:58
seems
2:59
like
2:59
that
2:59
has
2:59
guided
2:59
your
3:00
life.
3:00
Well,
3:01
it's
3:01
an
3:01
influence,
3:02
of
3:02
course.
3:02
You
3:03
know,
3:03
I
3:03
like
3:03
to
3:03
stay
3:03
humble
3:03
around
3:04
These
3:04
kinds
3:04
of
3:04
things.
3:05
We'll
3:06
see
3:06
what
3:06
it's
3:06
like
3:06
for
3:07
me
3:07
when
3:07
my
3:07
time
3:07
comes.
3:08
Yeah.
3:08
Yeah.
3:10
Well,
3:10
that
3:10
is,
3:10
of
3:10
course,
3:11
is
3:11
the
3:11
test
3:11
for
3:11
us
3:12
all.
3:12
And
3:12
John,
3:13
you've
3:13
actually
3:14
faced
3:14
that.
3:16
Yeah,
3:16
A
3:16
few
3:16
years
3:16
ago,
3:17
I
3:17
don't
3:17
know,
3:17
my.
3:18
Five
3:18
or
3:18
six
3:18
years
3:19
ago,
3:19
something
3:19
like
3:19
that,
3:20
I
3:20
was
3:20
in
3:20
Grand
3:20
Junction,
3:21
Colorado,
3:21
on
3:21
the
3:21
road
3:22
with
3:22
my
3:22
dog,
3:23
and
3:23
I
3:23
went
3:23
to
3:24
the
3:24
gym
3:24
that
3:24
I
3:25
work
3:25
out
3:25
when
3:25
I
3:25
go
3:25
there.
3:26
And
3:26
coming
3:26
out
3:26
of
3:26
the
3:26
gym,
3:27
I
3:27
had
3:27
this
3:28
massive
3:28
heart
3:28
attack.
3:29
And
3:29
I'd
3:29
never
3:29
had
3:29
a
3:29
heart
3:30
attack,
3:30
but
3:30
this
3:30
was
3:30
not
3:31
subtle.
3:31
It
3:31
was
3:31
like
3:32
I
3:32
was
3:32
in
3:32
great
3:33
pain.
3:33
So
3:34
the
3:34
first
3:34
thing
3:34
I
3:35
thought
3:35
about,
3:35
I've
3:35
got
3:35
to
3:36
get
3:36
back
3:36
and
3:36
make
3:36
sure
3:36
my
3:37
dog
3:37
is
3:37
taken
3:37
care
3:37
of.
3:38
So,
3:38
like
3:38
an
3:38
idiot,
3:39
I
3:39
didn't
3:39
dial
3:39
91
3:40
1.
3:40
I
3:40
drove
3:41
in
3:41
a
3:41
pot
3:41
and
3:42
this
3:42
old
3:42
person
3:42
going
3:43
really
3:43
slow
3:43
for
3:44
3.8
3:44
miles
3:45
to
3:45
get
3:45
back
3:45
to
3:45
the.
3:46
My
3:46
hotel
3:46
room.
3:47
And
3:47
I
3:47
got
3:47
there
3:48
and
3:48
I
3:48
had
3:49
met
3:49
the
3:49
manager
3:50
before,
3:50
and
3:50
she
3:50
loved
3:50
dogs.
3:51
And
3:51
so,
3:51
okay.
3:52
Then
3:53
I
3:53
called
3:53
once
3:53
I
3:53
got
3:54
back
3:54
with
3:54
my
3:54
dog
3:54
to
3:56
that,
3:56
and
3:57
yeah,
3:58
it
3:58
was.
4:00
I
4:00
was
4:00
pretty
4:00
sure
4:01
I
4:01
was
4:01
going
4:01
to
4:01
die.
4:02
Certainly
4:02
felt
4:03
like
4:03
it.
4:03
And
4:03
I
4:03
was
4:03
just
4:04
like,
4:04
well,
4:04
okay,
4:04
God,
4:05
this
4:06
is
4:06
it.
4:06
Here
4:07
I
4:07
am.
4:08
And
4:09
there
4:09
wasn't
4:09
that
4:10
much
4:10
fear.
4:11
You
4:12
know,
4:12
I
4:12
was
4:12
trying
4:12
to
4:12
say
4:13
any.
4:13
You
4:13
know,
4:13
just
4:14
forgive
4:15
me
4:15
and
4:15
help
4:15
me
4:15
to
4:16
forgive
4:16
and,
4:16
you
4:16
know,
4:17
all
4:17
these
4:17
things.
4:17
But
4:18
basically,
4:19
God,
4:20
and
4:20
that
4:20
sort
4:21
of
4:21
thing
4:21
was
4:21
on
4:21
my
4:21
mind.
4:22
And
4:22
then
4:23
they
4:23
put
4:23
a
4:23
stint
4:24
in
4:24
my
4:24
heart,
4:24
and
4:25
it
4:25
just
4:25
like,
4:25
opened
4:26
up.
4:26
I
4:26
could
4:27
breathe
4:27
again.
4:27
I
4:27
said,
4:28
wow.
4:28
I
4:28
said,
4:28
you
4:29
guys
4:29
just
4:29
saved
4:29
my
4:29
life.
4:29
Thank
4:30
you
4:30
so
4:30
much.
4:31
And
4:31
then
4:31
I
4:31
had
4:31
for
4:32
about
4:32
an
4:32
hour
4:32
and
4:33
a
4:33
half
4:33
after
4:33
that
4:34
great
4:34
sense
4:35
of
4:35
clarity
4:36
psychologically
4:37
and
4:37
spiritual.
4:38
And
4:38
I
4:38
was
4:38
at
4:38
great
4:39
peace.
4:40
And
4:40
I
4:40
said,
4:40
maybe
4:40
I'm
4:40
getting
4:40
ready
4:41
to
4:41
die.
4:41
I
4:41
hear
4:41
that
4:42
happens
4:42
sometimes
4:42
before
4:43
people
4:43
die.
4:44
And
4:44
no.
4:45
So
4:45
I
4:45
called
4:46
some
4:46
people
4:46
to
4:46
make
4:47
and
4:47
said,
4:47
you
4:47
know,
4:47
I'm
4:48
sorry,
4:48
you
4:49
know,
4:49
forgive
4:49
me
4:49
for
4:49
not
4:50
being
4:50
in
4:50
touch.
4:51
My
4:52
brother,
4:52
for
4:52
one.
4:53
And
4:53
then.
4:55
Then
4:55
after
4:55
that,
4:55
it
4:56
felt
4:56
like
4:56
a
4:56
mule
4:57
had
4:57
kicked
4:57
me
4:57
in
4:57
the
4:57
chest.
4:58
And
4:58
I
4:58
was
4:58
like,
4:59
okay,
5:00
this
5:00
is
5:00
what
5:00
it's
5:01
like.
5:01
And
5:01
it
5:01
became
5:01
very
5:02
difficult.
5:02
But
5:02
I
5:02
had
5:03
very
5:04
little
5:04
fear,
5:04
except
5:04
for
5:04
my
5:05
dog,
5:05
her
5:06
being
5:06
abandoned.
5:07
And
5:07
when
5:07
I
5:08
was
5:08
in
5:08
the
5:08
operating
5:08
room,
5:09
it
5:09
was
5:10
Grand
5:10
Junction,
5:10
Colorado,
5:11
and
5:11
had
5:11
a
5:11
great
5:12
Catholic
5:12
hospital
5:13
cardiac
5:14
center
5:14
there.
5:14
So
5:15
it
5:15
was.
5:15
Any
5:15
place
5:15
on
5:16
my
5:16
trip,
5:16
I
5:16
would
5:17
have
5:17
died,
5:17
no
5:17
question.
5:17
But
5:18
I
5:18
was
5:18
right
5:18
there
5:18
at
5:18
the
5:19
right
5:19
place
5:19
in
5:19
the
5:19
right
5:19
time.
5:20
So
5:20
there
5:21
was
5:21
acceptance
5:23
and
5:23
peace
5:24
and
5:25
just
5:25
trying
5:26
to
5:26
forgive
5:27
and
5:27
ask
5:27
for
5:27
forgiveness
5:28
of
5:28
people
5:29
I
5:29
had
5:29
offended
5:29
or
5:30
had
5:30
offended
5:30
me
5:30
and
5:31
clear
5:31
up
5:31
with
5:32
that.
5:33
So
5:33
it's
5:33
always
5:34
been
5:34
very,
5:34
very
5:34
on
5:35
my
5:35
shoulder,
5:35
very
5:35
close
5:36
to
5:36
me
5:36
ever
5:36
since
5:36
then,
5:36
because
5:37
once
5:37
you
5:37
have
5:37
that
5:37
experience,
5:38
you
5:38
know,
5:39
it's
5:39
before
5:39
and
5:39
after.
5:40
And
5:40
so
5:40
it's
5:41
very
5:41
happy
5:42
to
5:42
be
5:42
here
5:42
with
5:42
you
5:42
because
5:42
I've
5:43
been
5:43
listening
5:43
to
5:43
your
5:43
presence
5:44
a
5:44
lot
5:44
on
5:45
YouTube
5:45
and
5:46
feel
5:46
I
5:46
have
5:46
a
5:46
lot,
5:47
I
5:47
have
5:47
gained
5:47
a
5:48
lot,
5:48
and
5:48
I
5:48
have
5:48
a
5:48
lot
5:48
to.
5:49
To
5:49
learn
5:49
with
5:50
you.
5:50
So
5:50
anyway,
5:51
thank
5:51
you
5:51
for
5:51
asking,
5:52
Frank.
5:52
So,
5:53
John,
5:53
may
5:53
I
5:53
ask
5:53
another
5:54
question?
5:54
I
5:54
saw
5:54
a
5:55
kind
5:55
of
5:55
tenderness
5:56
that
5:56
came
5:56
over
5:57
your
5:57
face
5:57
when
5:57
you
5:57
talked
5:58
about
5:58
forgiveness
5:58
for
5:58
a
5:59
moment,
5:59
forgiving
5:59
your
6:00
brother
6:00
and
6:00
forgiving.
6:01
So
6:02
I'm
6:02
curious
6:02
about
6:03
how
6:03
this
6:04
experience
6:04
has
6:04
stayed
6:05
with
6:05
you
6:05
now.
6:05
I
6:06
mean,
6:06
there
6:06
was.
6:06
You
6:06
spoke
6:07
about
6:07
the
6:07
initial
6:08
impact
6:09
that
6:09
it
6:09
had,
6:09
but
6:09
how
6:10
is
6:10
it
6:10
with
6:10
you
6:10
now?
6:10
Because
6:11
it's
6:11
been
6:11
some
6:11
time.
6:12
Yeah,
6:13
well,
6:13
sometimes
6:15
it
6:15
changes.
6:16
Sometimes
6:16
I'm
6:16
sitting
6:17
in
6:17
a
6:17
place
6:17
where
6:17
it
6:17
seems
6:18
very
6:18
okay,
6:18
and
6:19
other
6:19
times
6:19
I'm
6:19
just
6:20
a
6:20
human
6:20
being
6:21
that's
6:21
going
6:21
to
6:21
die.
6:21
And
6:21
it's
6:22
scary
6:22
because
6:23
I
6:23
don't
6:23
know
6:23
exactly
6:24
what's
6:24
going
6:24
to
6:24
happen.
6:25
So
6:25
I
6:25
seem
6:25
to
6:26
alternate
6:27
between
6:27
those
6:28
two.
6:29
And
6:29
right
6:30
now
6:30
I'm
6:30
at
6:30
this
6:30
moment
6:31
with
6:31
you,
6:31
with
6:32
everyone
6:32
here.
6:32
I'm
6:33
feeling
6:33
at
6:33
peace
6:33
with
6:33
it
6:34
for
6:34
whatever
6:35
because
6:35
of
6:35
the
6:35
transmission
6:36
or
6:36
the
6:37
field
6:37
that's
6:37
created
6:38
or
6:38
who
6:38
knows
6:38
why?
6:39
But
6:39
I've
6:40
been
6:40
through
6:41
fear
6:41
of
6:41
mortality
6:42
and
6:44
at
6:44
peace
6:45
with
6:45
it.
6:46
And
6:46
I
6:47
had
6:47
an
6:47
experience
6:47
one
6:48
time.
6:48
I'll
6:48
just
6:48
give
6:48
this.
6:49
I
6:49
was
6:49
in
6:50
a
6:50
deep,
6:51
meditative,
6:51
prayerful
6:52
state.
6:53
And
6:53
sometimes
6:54
it
6:54
feels
6:54
like
6:55
I'm
6:55
just
6:55
in
6:55
a
6:55
place
6:55
where
6:56
I
6:56
can
6:56
ask
6:56
any
6:57
question.
6:57
You
6:57
know,
6:57
the
6:57
oracles
6:58
are
6:58
open.
6:59
And
6:59
I
7:00
said,
7:01
okay,
7:01
God,
7:02
it's
7:02
a
7:03
big
7:03
one.
7:03
What
7:03
about
7:03
death?
7:05
And
7:05
the
7:05
answer
7:06
that
7:06
came,
7:06
that's
7:06
really
7:07
sustained
7:07
me
7:08
was
7:08
I
7:08
will
7:09
be
7:09
there.
7:10
Not
7:10
me,
7:10
but
7:10
God
7:11
will
7:11
be
7:11
there.
7:11
And
7:11
I
7:11
said,
7:12
well,
7:12
that's
7:12
enough.
7:13
That's
7:13
all
7:13
I
7:13
need
7:13
to
7:14
know.
7:14
That's
7:14
more
7:15
than
7:15
enough
7:15
for
7:15
an
7:15
answer.
7:17
So
7:17
you
7:17
can
7:17
make
7:18
of
7:18
that
7:18
what
7:18
you
7:18
will.
7:19
But
7:19
I
7:19
always
7:19
go
7:20
back
7:20
to
7:20
that.
7:20
And
7:21
there
7:21
was
7:21
not
7:21
a
7:21
lot
7:21
of
7:21
fear
7:22
when
7:22
I
7:22
thought
7:22
I
7:22
was
7:22
dying.
7:23
It
7:23
was
7:23
like,
7:23
okay,
7:24
here
7:24
I
7:24
am,
7:24
and
7:24
God
7:25
help
7:25
me,
7:25
I
7:25
should
7:25
have
7:26
done
7:26
better.
7:26
But
7:27
help
7:27
me
7:27
to
7:27
clear
7:27
it
7:27
up
7:28
in
7:28
the
7:28
next
7:28
few
7:28
minutes
7:28
while
7:29
I'm
7:29
in
7:29
this
7:29
body
7:29
to
7:30
anything
7:30
that's
7:31
behind.
7:33
Well,
7:33
thank
7:33
you,
7:33
John.
7:33
I
7:34
mean,
7:34
as
7:34
you
7:35
know,
7:35
I
7:35
had
7:35
a
7:35
series
7:36
of
7:36
heart
7:36
attacks
7:36
and
7:36
strokes
7:37
as
7:37
well.
7:37
And
7:38
we
7:38
won't
7:38
go
7:38
into
7:38
an
7:39
organ
7:39
recital.
7:39
But
7:40
while
7:41
after
7:41
my.
7:42
After
7:42
those
7:42
experiences,
7:43
I
7:43
read
7:44
the
7:44
works
7:44
of
7:44
people
7:45
who'd
7:45
also
7:45
had
7:45
heart
7:46
Attacks,
7:47
just
7:47
so
7:47
I
7:47
could
7:48
understand.
7:48
Abe
7:48
Maslow,
7:49
you
7:49
know,
7:49
had
7:49
a
7:49
very
7:50
big
7:50
one,
7:50
and.
7:51
And
7:51
he
7:51
said
7:52
the
7:52
encounter
7:53
with
7:53
death
7:54
makes
7:54
love,
7:55
passionate
7:56
love,
7:57
more
7:57
possible.
7:58
Yeah.
7:59
And
7:59
I
7:59
love
8:00
that
8:00
that
8:00
was
8:00
his
8:01
takeaway,
8:01
if
8:01
you
8:01
will.
8:02
That
8:02
was
8:02
what
8:03
kind
8:03
of
8:04
stayed
8:05
with
8:05
him
8:05
after
8:06
these,
8:06
what
8:07
were
8:07
frightening
8:07
experiences.
8:08
Of
8:08
course,
8:08
yeah.
8:10
I'm
8:11
struck
8:11
that
8:11
both
8:11
of
8:12
you
8:14
have
8:14
been
8:14
through
8:15
these,
8:16
really
8:16
looking
8:17
death
8:17
in
8:17
the
8:18
face,
8:18
you,
8:19
Frank,
8:19
on
8:20
several
8:20
occasions.
8:22
And
8:23
both
8:23
of
8:23
you
8:23
are
8:24
deep
8:24
contemplative
8:25
practitioners.
8:26
And
8:26
I
8:27
wonder
8:29
how
8:29
has
8:29
that
8:30
shaped
8:31
or
8:31
molded
8:32
the
8:32
way
8:32
you
8:32
are
8:33
able
8:33
to
8:33
be
8:33
with
8:33
death,
8:34
your
8:34
own,
8:34
and
8:35
with
8:35
the
8:35
many,
8:36
many
8:36
people
8:36
you've
8:37
sat
8:37
with,
8:37
Frank?
8:39
Well,
8:39
I've
8:39
had
8:40
a
8:40
few
8:40
trial
8:41
runs,
8:41
as
8:41
we
8:42
were
8:42
speaking
8:42
about
8:42
a
8:42
moment
8:42
ago.
8:43
I
8:43
mean,
8:43
this
8:44
happened
8:44
to
8:44
me
8:44
just
8:44
a
8:45
few
8:45
months
8:45
ago,
8:45
Roger,
8:46
as
8:46
you
8:46
know,
8:46
and
8:47
I
8:48
was
8:48
having
8:48
a
8:48
kind
8:48
of
8:48
pain,
8:49
and
8:49
I
8:49
sat.
8:50
I
8:50
got
8:50
up
8:51
out
8:51
of
8:51
bed,
8:51
not
8:51
quite
8:52
knowing
8:52
what's
8:52
happening,
8:52
and
8:53
I
8:53
sat
8:53
on
8:53
this
8:53
little
8:53
chair
8:54
in
8:54
my
8:55
home.
8:56
And
8:56
honestly,
8:57
Roger,
8:57
my
8:58
mind
8:59
was
8:59
like
8:59
a
8:59
barking
9:00
junkyard
9:00
dog.
9:02
It
9:02
was
9:02
just
9:02
all
9:03
over
9:03
the
9:03
place,
9:04
you
9:04
know,
9:04
and
9:05
all
9:05
of
9:05
my
9:05
meditative
9:06
tricks
9:06
and
9:07
of
9:07
the
9:07
trade,
9:07
so
9:07
to
9:08
speak,
9:08
weren't
9:09
very
9:09
useful.
9:10
And
9:11
then
9:11
I
9:12
just
9:12
began
9:12
to
9:13
remember
9:14
the
9:15
people
9:15
I
9:15
love,
9:16
and
9:17
that
9:17
was
9:17
a
9:17
kind
9:17
of
9:18
stabilizing
9:19
influence
9:20
on
9:20
me.
9:20
And
9:20
then
9:20
I
9:21
could
9:21
draw
9:22
my
9:22
attention
9:22
back
9:23
to
9:23
the
9:23
contemplative
9:23
practices
9:24
that
9:24
you
9:25
and
9:25
I
9:25
are
9:25
familiar
9:25
with.
9:26
And
9:27
there
9:27
my
9:28
mind
9:28
became
9:29
a
9:29
little
9:29
bit
9:29
more
9:29
stable
9:30
and
9:30
I
9:31
could
9:31
take
9:32
action
9:32
that
9:32
was
9:32
appropriate
9:33
at
9:33
that
9:33
point.
9:33
Call
9:34
91
9:34
1.
9:35
But
9:35
the
9:35
truth
9:36
is,
9:36
I
9:36
was
9:37
in
9:37
complete
9:37
denial
9:38
about
9:38
the
9:39
experience,
9:40
and
9:40
I
9:40
don't
9:40
think
9:41
that's
9:41
uncommon.
9:41
John
9:42
just
9:42
referenced
9:42
that
9:42
as
9:43
well.
9:43
I
9:43
don't
9:44
think
9:44
that's
9:44
uncommon
9:44
because
9:45
I
9:45
think
9:45
our
9:45
sense
9:45
of
9:46
self,
9:46
our
9:46
egoic
9:47
self,
9:47
can't
9:48
really
9:48
conceptualize
9:49
it's
9:49
dying.
9:50
I
9:51
mean,
9:51
we
9:51
can
9:51
conceptualize
9:52
it.
9:52
We
9:52
can
9:52
think
9:52
about
9:53
it.
9:53
It's
9:54
not
9:54
enough
9:55
to
9:55
help
9:55
us
9:55
meet
9:56
this
9:56
experience.
9:58
It
9:58
just
9:58
can't
9:58
do
9:59
it.
9:59
And
10:00
so
10:00
we
10:00
have
10:00
to
10:00
discover
10:01
something
10:01
in
10:01
ourself
10:01
that
10:02
includes
10:03
ourself,
10:03
but
10:03
is
10:03
larger
10:04
than
10:04
ourself.
10:04
We
10:05
could
10:05
say,
10:05
yeah,
10:06
only
10:06
that
10:07
can
10:07
help
10:07
us
10:07
meet
10:08
this
10:08
experience.
10:09
Was
10:09
there
10:09
a
10:10
lot
10:10
of
10:10
fear
10:10
for
10:10
you
10:10
when
10:10
you
10:11
were
10:11
going
10:11
through
10:11
this
10:11
experience?
10:12
At
10:13
times
10:13
there
10:13
was.
10:14
At
10:14
other
10:14
times,
10:15
no.
10:15
You
10:15
know,
10:16
in
10:16
another
10:17
experience,
10:17
I
10:17
had
10:18
a
10:18
rather
10:18
severe
10:18
stroke.
10:19
And
10:20
what
10:20
I
10:20
noticed,
10:20
John,
10:21
was
10:21
that
10:22
while
10:22
it
10:22
felt
10:22
like
10:23
someone
10:23
was
10:23
taking
10:23
a
10:23
jackhammer
10:24
to
10:24
my
10:24
head,
10:26
I
10:26
got
10:26
up
10:26
and
10:27
I
10:27
couldn't
10:27
find
10:27
my
10:27
way
10:28
to
10:28
the
10:28
bathroom
10:28
in
10:29
my
10:29
house,
10:29
which
10:29
is
10:29
only
10:30
10ft
10:30
away.
10:31
And
10:32
I
10:32
wandered
10:33
in
10:33
that
10:33
10ft
10:34
and
10:34
then
10:35
I
10:35
began
10:35
to
10:35
notice
10:35
that
10:36
my
10:36
ability
10:37
to
10:37
tell
10:38
night
10:38
from
10:38
day
10:39
was
10:39
going
10:39
offline.
10:40
My
10:40
ability
10:40
to
10:41
find
10:41
direction
10:41
certainly
10:42
was
10:42
going
10:42
offline.
10:43
But
10:43
awareness
10:44
was
10:44
present.
10:45
Awareness
10:46
was
10:46
there.
10:47
And
10:47
even
10:47
though
10:48
the
10:48
functionality
10:49
of
10:49
my
10:49
brain
10:50
was
10:50
not
10:50
what
10:50
it
10:51
ought
10:51
to
10:51
be,
10:51
awareness
10:52
was
10:52
conscious
10:52
of
10:53
that.
10:53
And
10:54
so
10:55
in
10:56
moments,
10:56
there
10:56
was
10:56
fear,
10:57
of
10:57
course,
10:58
but
10:58
there
10:58
was
10:58
also
10:59
awareness.
11:00
I
11:00
don't
11:00
like
11:00
to
11:01
prop
11:01
myself
11:01
up
11:02
as
11:02
anything
11:02
special.
11:03
I
11:03
just
11:03
think
11:03
that's
11:04
the
11:04
nature
11:04
of
11:04
awareness.
11:06
It's
11:07
trustworthy.
11:08
Yeah,
11:09
trustworthy.
11:11
And
11:12
your
11:12
contemplative
11:13
practice,
11:14
it
11:14
seems,
11:14
has
11:14
been
11:15
central
11:15
to
11:15
the
11:16
way
11:17
you've
11:17
been
11:17
able
11:17
to
11:18
approach
11:19
the
11:19
dying.
11:19
It
11:20
just
11:20
feels,
11:20
as
11:20
I
11:20
read
11:21
into
11:21
your
11:22
book
11:22
or
11:23
into
11:24
your
11:24
being,
11:24
it
11:24
just
11:25
feels
11:25
like
11:26
there's
11:26
something
11:27
about
11:27
all
11:27
those
11:28
years
11:28
of
11:28
contemplative
11:29
practice
11:29
which
11:29
has
11:29
enabled
11:30
you
11:30
to
11:30
be
11:30
present
11:31
in
11:31
a
11:31
way
11:31
most
11:32
people
11:32
aren't.
11:34
Well,
11:36
perhaps,
11:37
although
11:37
I
11:38
want
11:38
to
11:38
add
11:38
here,
11:39
Roger.
11:39
That
11:39
I've
11:39
been
11:39
with,
11:40
oh,
11:40
a
11:40
thousand
11:40
or
11:41
two
11:41
thousand
11:41
people
11:41
going
11:42
through
11:42
their
11:42
dying
11:42
process.
11:43
Many
11:44
of
11:44
them
11:44
were
11:44
people
11:45
who
11:45
had
11:45
no
11:45
inner
11:46
life
11:46
practice,
11:46
who
11:46
had
11:47
no
11:47
contemplative
11:48
practice
11:48
to
11:48
speak
11:49
of.
11:49
And
11:49
yet
11:50
the
11:50
experience
11:51
of
11:51
dying
11:52
introduced
11:53
them
11:53
to
11:53
something,
11:54
had
11:54
them
11:54
seeing
11:55
themselves
11:55
as
11:55
something
11:56
larger
11:57
than
11:57
the
11:57
small,
11:57
separate
11:58
self
11:58
they'd
11:58
taken
11:59
themselves
11:59
to
11:59
be.
12:00
So
12:00
I
12:01
would
12:01
suggest
12:01
here
12:01
that
12:02
dying
12:02
has
12:03
about
12:03
it
12:03
certain
12:04
conditions
12:04
which
12:05
are
12:05
conducive,
12:06
helpful
12:07
to
12:07
our
12:07
waking
12:08
up
12:08
or
12:08
discovering
12:09
ourselves
12:09
to
12:09
be
12:09
more
12:10
than
12:10
our
12:10
small,
12:10
separate
12:11
selves.
12:11
Yeah.
12:12
And
12:12
so
12:13
that's
12:13
why
12:13
I
12:13
want
12:13
to
12:13
say
12:14
that
12:14
dying
12:14
is
12:14
not
12:15
predominantly
12:15
a
12:15
medical
12:16
event,
12:16
and
12:16
we
12:16
ought
12:16
to
12:17
stop
12:17
treating
12:17
it
12:17
as
12:18
if
12:18
it
12:18
were.
12:18
You
12:19
know,
12:19
we
12:19
should
12:19
bring
12:19
the
12:20
best
12:20
of
12:20
medicine
12:20
to
12:21
the
12:21
care
12:21
of
12:22
the
12:22
dying.
12:22
But
12:24
dying
12:24
can't
12:24
be
12:25
managed
12:25
by
12:25
medicine
12:26
alone.
12:26
It's
12:27
too
12:27
large
12:27
for
12:28
that
12:28
model.
12:28
It's
12:29
too
12:29
profound
12:30
for
12:30
any
12:30
single
12:31
model.
12:31
Yeah.
12:33
Can't
12:33
show
12:33
up.
12:34
It
12:34
can't
12:34
help
12:34
us
12:35
to
12:35
see
12:35
all
12:35
that
12:35
death
12:36
has
12:36
to
12:37
teach
12:37
us.
12:37
So
12:38
I
12:38
would
12:38
want
12:38
to
12:38
stop
12:39
compartmentalizing
12:40
death,
12:40
cutting
12:40
it
12:40
off
12:40
from
12:41
life.
12:41
Suppose
12:42
we
12:42
imagine
12:42
death
12:42
as
12:43
this
12:45
unprecedented
12:46
opportunity
12:48
for
12:49
transformation.
12:50
That
12:51
helped.
12:51
What
12:52
would
12:52
happen
12:52
if
12:52
we
12:52
turned
12:53
toward
12:53
death
12:53
and
12:54
said,
12:55
please
12:55
tell
12:55
us,
12:55
what
12:56
do
12:56
you
12:56
have
12:56
to
12:56
teach
12:56
us?
12:57
That
12:58
interests
12:58
me?
12:59
Yeah.
12:59
And
13:00
of
13:00
course,
13:00
that's
13:01
what
13:01
you've
13:02
discovered
13:03
there
13:03
and
13:04
just
13:04
communicated
13:05
to
13:05
us
13:05
is
13:06
very
13:06
congruent
13:07
with
13:07
the
13:07
teachings
13:08
of
13:08
not
13:09
one,
13:09
but
13:09
several
13:10
of
13:10
the
13:10
world's
13:10
great
13:11
spiritual
13:11
traditions.
13:12
That
13:12
death,
13:13
from
13:13
their
13:13
perspective,
13:14
is
13:15
one
13:15
of
13:16
the
13:16
most
13:16
important
13:16
events
13:17
in
13:17
life
13:19
and
13:19
has
13:20
that
13:20
profound
13:21
spiritual
13:22
potential
13:22
that
13:22
you
13:23
pointed
13:23
to.
13:24
Yeah.
13:24
What
13:25
other
13:25
kind
13:25
of
13:26
transformations
13:26
you've
13:27
seen
13:27
people
13:27
go
13:28
through?
13:29
Oh,
13:29
boy,
13:30
that's
13:31
a
13:31
big
13:32
question,
13:32
Roger.
13:34
What
13:34
I
13:34
think
13:34
I've
13:35
seen
13:35
oftentimes
13:36
is
13:39
in
13:39
the
13:39
final
13:39
months
13:39
of
13:40
life,
13:40
the
13:40
final
13:40
weeks
13:41
of
13:41
life,
13:41
days,
13:41
minutes
13:42
of
13:42
life,
13:43
this
13:45
sense
13:45
of
13:45
discovery
13:46
that
13:46
we've
13:46
been,
13:47
you
13:47
know,
13:47
chatting
13:48
about
13:48
here,
13:50
where
13:50
people,
13:51
not
13:51
unlike
13:51
what
13:52
John
13:52
was
13:52
just
13:52
talking
13:52
about
13:53
earlier,
13:54
see
13:54
what's
13:54
really
13:54
important,
13:55
you
13:56
know,
13:56
find
13:56
what
13:56
really
13:57
matters,
13:57
you
13:58
know,
13:58
and
13:58
we
13:59
might
13:59
say
13:59
too
13:59
late.
14:00
And
14:00
I
14:00
would
14:00
agree
14:01
we
14:01
shouldn't
14:01
need
14:02
this
14:02
until
14:02
we
14:02
find
14:02
ourselves
14:03
on
14:03
our
14:03
own
14:03
deathbeds.
14:05
But
14:05
the
14:05
point
14:05
is,
14:06
if
14:06
that
14:07
opportunity,
14:08
if
14:08
that
14:09
understanding
14:09
can
14:10
emerge
14:10
in
14:10
the
14:10
time
14:11
of
14:11
dying,
14:11
well,
14:12
then
14:13
isn't
14:13
it
14:13
available
14:13
to
14:14
us
14:14
now?
14:15
And
14:15
why
14:15
wait
14:15
until
14:16
the
14:16
time
14:16
of
14:16
our
14:16
dying
14:17
to
14:17
discover
14:17
it?
14:18
Yeah.
14:19
So,
14:20
yeah,
14:21
I
14:22
don't
14:22
want
14:22
to
14:22
rattle
14:22
on
14:22
too
14:23
much
14:23
here,
14:23
but
14:23
I
14:23
think
14:24
that,
14:25
you
14:25
know,
14:25
Kubler
14:26
Ross
14:26
was
14:26
one
14:26
of
14:26
my
14:27
mentors
14:27
early
14:27
on,
14:28
you
14:28
know,
14:28
and
14:29
she
14:29
of
14:29
course
14:29
developed
14:30
her
14:30
famous
14:31
five
14:31
stages
14:31
of
14:31
grief
14:32
which
14:32
people
14:32
apply
14:33
to
14:33
the
14:33
dying.
14:33
She
14:33
never
14:34
meant
14:34
them
14:34
to
14:34
be
14:34
literal,
14:35
I
14:35
don't
14:35
think.
14:36
But
14:36
the
14:37
final,
14:37
you
14:37
remember,
14:37
was
14:38
acceptance.
14:39
And
14:40
it's
14:40
been
14:40
my
14:40
experience
14:41
in
14:41
our
14:42
contemporary
14:43
medical
14:43
care,
14:44
including
14:44
very
14:44
good
14:45
hospice
14:45
care,
14:46
that
14:46
oftentimes
14:47
we
14:47
are
14:47
pushing
14:48
people
14:48
toward
14:48
acceptance
14:51
and
14:52
thinking
14:52
or
14:53
imagining
14:53
that
14:54
it's
14:54
some
14:54
final
14:55
stage.
14:55
I
14:55
think
14:56
acceptance
14:56
is
14:56
just
14:56
the
14:57
beginning.
14:58
I
14:58
think
14:59
when
14:59
we
14:59
accept,
15:00
usually
15:00
it
15:01
just
15:01
means
15:01
we're
15:01
accepting
15:02
that
15:02
we're
15:02
mortal.
15:03
You
15:03
know,
15:03
we
15:03
come
15:03
to
15:04
terms
15:04
with
15:04
this
15:05
undeniable
15:06
experience.
15:07
But
15:08
that's
15:08
just
15:08
the
15:08
beginning.
15:10
What
15:10
I've
15:11
seen
15:11
frequently
15:12
after
15:12
this
15:12
stage
15:13
of
15:13
acceptance
15:14
are
15:14
appreciably
15:14
deeper
15:15
states.
15:17
When
15:17
the
15:17
ego
15:17
structure
15:18
comes
15:18
into
15:18
contact
15:19
with
15:19
acceptance,
15:19
it
15:20
freaks
15:20
out.
15:22
You
15:22
know,
15:22
it's
15:22
not
15:22
a
15:23
pleasant
15:23
experience.
15:24
It's
15:24
not
15:24
all
15:24
warm
15:25
and
15:25
fuzzy.
15:26
It's
15:26
often
15:26
chaotic.
15:28
There's
15:29
this
15:29
sense
15:29
of,
15:30
you
15:31
know,
15:31
being
15:32
pulled
15:32
apart
15:33
or
15:34
everything.
15:34
All
15:34
the
15:35
ways
15:35
we've
15:35
defined
15:35
ourselves
15:36
as
15:36
being
15:36
stripped
15:37
away
15:38
in
15:38
this
15:38
process.
15:40
And
15:40
it's
15:40
frightening
15:41
for
15:42
most
15:42
people.
15:44
I'll
15:44
just
15:44
add
15:44
to
15:45
that,
15:45
just
15:45
talking
15:46
to
15:46
you
15:46
here
15:46
is
15:46
bringing
15:47
me
15:47
back
15:47
experience.
15:48
But
15:48
I
15:48
don't
15:49
remember
15:49
that.
15:50
Finally
15:50
they
15:50
got
15:50
me
15:50
to
15:51
the
15:51
emergency
15:51
room,
15:51
you
15:52
know,
15:52
went
15:52
to
15:52
the
15:52
ambulance,
15:53
you
15:53
know,
15:53
all
15:54
this
15:54
stuff
15:54
is
15:54
going
15:54
on.
15:55
And
15:56
there
15:56
was
15:56
no
15:56
fear
15:57
until
15:58
later
15:58
on.
15:58
And
15:59
I
15:59
realized
15:59
what
16:00
happened,
16:00
you
16:00
know,
16:00
and
16:01
I've
16:01
become
16:01
very
16:02
much
16:02
aware
16:02
of
16:02
death,
16:02
that
16:03
sometimes
16:03
my
16:03
ego
16:03
gets
16:04
really
16:04
scared
16:04
of
16:04
it.
16:05
But
16:05
in
16:05
the
16:05
moment
16:05
when
16:06
it
16:06
was
16:06
happening,
16:07
I
16:07
was
16:08
very
16:08
much
16:09
on
16:09
what
16:09
matters.
16:10
My
16:10
dog,
16:11
the
16:11
people
16:12
that
16:12
I
16:12
love,
16:12
and
16:14
God.
16:15
Well,
16:16
John,
16:16
you
16:17
know,
16:17
acceptance
16:17
is
16:18
important.
16:18
Acceptance
16:19
of
16:19
impermanence
16:20
in
16:20
our
16:20
day
16:20
to
16:20
day
16:21
life
16:21
helps
16:21
us
16:21
to
16:22
learn
16:22
how
16:22
to
16:22
die.
16:22
I
16:23
think
16:23
it
16:23
also
16:23
helps
16:24
reveals
16:24
the
16:24
flip
16:24
side
16:25
of
16:25
loss,
16:25
which
16:25
is
16:26
that
16:26
letting
16:27
go
16:27
is
16:27
also
16:27
an
16:28
act
16:28
of
16:28
generosity.
16:29
I
16:29
mean,
16:30
when
16:30
we
16:30
let
16:30
go
16:30
of
16:30
old
16:30
grudges,
16:31
we
16:31
give
16:31
ourself
16:32
to
16:32
peace.
16:33
That
16:33
often
16:33
happens
16:34
to
16:34
people
16:35
in
16:35
and
16:35
around
16:35
the
16:36
time
16:36
of
16:36
their
16:36
dying.
16:37
When
16:37
we
16:37
let
16:37
go
16:37
of
16:38
fixed
16:38
views
16:38
of
16:38
who
16:39
we
16:39
are,
16:40
we
16:40
give
16:40
ourselves
16:41
to
16:41
not
16:41
knowing.
16:43
When
16:43
we
16:43
let
16:44
go
16:44
of
16:44
all
16:45
our
16:45
self
16:45
sufficiency,
16:46
we
16:47
give
16:47
ourselves
16:47
into
16:47
the
16:48
care
16:48
of
16:48
others.
16:49
So
16:49
letting
16:49
go
16:49
has
16:50
a
16:51
important
16:51
and
16:52
beautiful
16:53
role
16:54
in
16:54
this
16:54
process
16:54
of
16:55
dying.
16:56
But
16:57
I
16:57
think
16:57
that
16:57
there's
16:58
a
16:58
deeper
16:58
dimension
16:59
to
16:59
this
16:59
and
17:00
I
17:00
think
17:00
it
17:00
arises
17:01
out
17:01
of
17:01
the
17:02
chaos
17:02
that
17:02
I
17:02
was
17:02
describing,
17:03
the
17:03
fear
17:04
that
17:04
you
17:04
were
17:04
speaking
17:05
to
17:05
just
17:05
a
17:06
moment
17:06
ago.
17:06
And
17:07
that's
17:07
the
17:07
role
17:07
of
17:08
surrender.
17:09
And
17:09
I
17:09
don't
17:10
think
17:10
it's
17:10
the
17:10
same
17:10
thing
17:10
as
17:11
letting
17:11
go.
17:11
I
17:11
think
17:12
that
17:13
letting
17:13
go
17:14
has
17:14
this
17:15
quality
17:15
of
17:15
being
17:15
released,
17:16
you
17:16
know,
17:16
from
17:17
some
17:17
previous,
17:18
I
17:18
don't
17:19
know,
17:19
idea
17:19
of
17:19
restraint,
17:20
we
17:20
could
17:20
say,
17:21
but
17:21
it
17:21
has
17:21
this
17:22
way
17:22
of
17:22
distancing
17:23
ourselves
17:23
from
17:23
something.
17:23
We
17:24
set
17:24
something
17:24
down,
17:25
right?
17:25
Surrender
17:26
is
17:26
different.
17:26
Surrender
17:27
has
17:27
this
17:27
quality
17:28
of
17:28
coming
17:29
closer
17:29
to
17:29
something,
17:30
closer
17:31
to
17:31
something
17:31
perhaps
17:31
that
17:32
we
17:32
already
17:32
have
17:32
a
17:32
taste
17:33
of
17:33
or
17:33
have
17:34
some
17:34
familiarity
17:35
with.
17:36
And
17:36
surrender,
17:37
to
17:37
me
17:37
at
17:37
least,
17:38
when
17:38
being
17:38
around
17:39
people
17:39
who
17:39
are
17:39
dying,
17:40
it
17:40
has
17:40
a
17:40
different
17:40
quality.
17:41
It
17:41
has
17:41
a
17:41
quality
17:42
of
17:42
expansion,
17:43
actually.
17:44
So
17:44
the
17:44
freedom
17:44
that
17:45
comes
17:45
with
17:45
that
17:45
isn't
17:46
exactly
17:46
by
17:46
setting
17:47
something
17:47
down,
17:48
but
17:48
rather
17:48
becoming
17:49
larger
17:50
so
17:50
that
17:51
it
17:51
can
17:51
include
17:52
whatever
17:53
is
17:53
occurring,
17:54
including
17:54
the
17:55
fear
17:55
that
17:55
you're
17:55
just
17:56
describing.
17:57
So
17:57
I
17:57
think
17:58
that
17:58
out
17:58
of
17:58
this
17:59
chaos
17:59
can
18:00
often
18:00
come
18:01
this
18:01
possibility
18:02
of
18:02
surrender
18:03
again,
18:03
infinitely
18:04
deeper
18:04
than
18:05
letting
18:05
go.
18:05
And
18:06
in
18:06
that
18:06
surrender
18:07
then
18:07
becomes.
18:08
That
18:08
becomes
18:09
a
18:09
kind
18:09
of
18:09
gateway
18:10
to
18:11
the
18:11
possibility
18:11
for
18:12
transformation,
18:12
to
18:13
see
18:13
things
18:13
in
18:14
a
18:14
new
18:14
way,
18:15
where
18:15
it's
18:15
not
18:15
just,
18:16
you
18:16
know,
18:16
some
18:17
activity
18:18
that's
18:18
being
18:18
tacked
18:19
onto
18:19
the
18:19
same
18:19
old
18:19
you,
18:20
you
18:20
are
18:20
changing,
18:21
you
18:21
are
18:21
being
18:21
reconstituted
18:23
in
18:23
this
18:23
experience
18:23
of
18:24
surrender.
18:25
And
18:25
I'll
18:25
say
18:26
one
18:26
more
18:26
thing
18:26
about
18:26
this.
18:27
We
18:27
might
18:28
think
18:28
of
18:28
surrender
18:29
as,
18:29
you
18:29
know,
18:29
the
18:30
result
18:30
of
18:30
religious
18:31
practice
18:31
or
18:32
faith
18:32
or
18:32
inner
18:33
life
18:33
work,
18:33
all
18:34
of
18:34
which
18:34
is
18:34
true.
18:35
Those
18:35
are
18:36
remarkable
18:37
contributors
18:38
to
18:38
the
18:38
possibility
18:39
of
18:39
surrender.
18:39
But
18:39
I
18:40
also
18:40
think
18:40
that
18:40
exhaustion
18:41
is
18:42
one
18:42
of
18:42
the
18:42
greatest
18:44
contributors
18:44
to
18:45
the
18:45
experience
18:45
of
18:45
surrender.
18:47
I
18:47
mean,
18:47
if
18:47
we
18:47
think
18:47
about
18:48
those
18:48
of
18:49
us
18:49
who
18:49
have
18:49
been
18:49
on
18:49
meditation
18:50
retreats
18:50
and
18:51
the
18:51
like,
18:52
oftentimes
18:54
what
18:54
happens
18:55
is
18:55
that
18:55
we're
18:56
just
18:56
too
18:56
bloody
18:56
tired
18:57
to
18:57
continue.
18:58
We're
18:58
tired
18:59
of
18:59
fighting
18:59
with
18:59
the
19:00
pain
19:00
in
19:00
our
19:00
body.
19:00
We're
19:01
tired
19:01
of,
19:01
you
19:01
know,
19:02
struggling
19:02
with
19:03
the
19:03
chaos
19:03
in
19:03
our
19:04
minds
19:04
and
19:04
we
19:05
finally
19:05
just
19:05
give
19:06
up.
19:06
We
19:07
cease
19:07
to
19:08
battle
19:08
against
19:09
the
19:09
situation.
19:10
And
19:10
that's
19:10
the
19:10
doorway
19:11
of
19:11
surrender.
19:12
And
19:12
then
19:13
the
19:13
veils
19:13
lift
19:14
and
19:15
all
19:15
kinds
19:15
of
19:15
things
19:15
are
19:16
possible.
19:17
And
19:17
I
19:17
think
19:17
in
19:17
the
19:17
case
19:18
of
19:18
dying,
19:18
that's
19:19
exactly
19:19
what
19:19
happens.
19:20
So
19:20
we
19:20
get
19:20
too
19:21
exhausted,
19:21
the
19:21
body
19:22
can't
19:22
fight
19:23
anymore,
19:23
a
19:23
sense
19:24
of
19:24
self
19:24
just
19:25
is
19:25
too
19:25
damn
19:26
tired
19:26
to
19:26
keep
19:27
it
19:27
all
19:27
going,
19:27
and
19:27
it
19:28
starts
19:28
to
19:28
get
19:28
exhausted.
19:29
And
19:29
out
19:30
of
19:30
that
19:30
experience
19:31
oftentimes
19:32
emerges
19:32
the
19:33
experience
19:33
of
19:33
surrender.
19:35
Beautiful.
19:36
Thank
19:36
you,
19:36
Frank.
19:37
And
19:37
it
19:38
does
19:38
feel
19:38
like
19:38
you're
19:39
pointing
19:39
to
19:39
something
19:40
both
19:40
more
19:41
than
19:41
and
19:41
possibly
19:42
beyond
19:43
simple
19:44
acceptance.
19:45
And
19:45
the
19:45
word
19:45
surrender
19:46
is
19:46
the
19:47
term
19:47
that's
19:47
most
19:47
commonly
19:48
used
19:48
and
19:48
valuable,
19:49
but
19:50
also
19:50
feels
19:50
like
19:51
for
19:51
many
19:51
people,
19:51
has
19:52
negative
19:52
connotations.
19:54
And
19:55
you're
19:55
pointing
19:55
to
19:56
something
19:58
beyond
19:58
those
19:58
negative
19:59
connotations.
19:59
You're
20:00
pointing
20:00
to
20:00
something
20:00
which
20:01
I'm
20:02
looking
20:02
for
20:03
further
20:03
terms,
20:04
perhaps
20:04
an
20:05
opening
20:05
to,
20:07
but
20:07
something
20:07
that
20:08
comes
20:08
out
20:09
of.
20:09
Out
20:10
of
20:10
no
20:10
longer
20:10
being
20:11
able
20:11
to
20:11
maintain
20:12
the
20:13
ego
20:13
structure
20:14
and
20:14
the
20:15
beliefs
20:15
and
20:16
positions
20:16
and
20:16
attachments,
20:17
et
20:17
cetera,
20:18
that
20:18
we've
20:19
cobbled
20:19
together
20:20
for
20:20
perhaps
20:21
a
20:21
lifetime.
20:22
And
20:23
the
20:24
discovery
20:24
that
20:25
holding.
20:25
That
20:26
our
20:26
ego
20:26
act
20:26
together
20:27
really
20:27
is.
20:28
A
20:28
lot
20:28
of
20:28
work.
20:29
Yes,
20:30
it
20:31
sure
20:31
is.
20:32
And
20:32
in
20:32
the
20:32
dying
20:33
process,
20:33
you
20:33
have
20:33
this
20:34
again.
20:34
I.
20:34
I
20:35
want
20:35
to
20:35
suggest,
20:36
and
20:36
I'm
20:36
not
20:36
romantic
20:37
about
20:37
dying
20:38
at
20:38
all.
20:38
I
20:38
think
20:38
it's
20:38
the
20:38
hardest
20:39
work
20:39
we'll
20:39
ever
20:39
do.
20:39
So
20:40
I
20:40
don't
20:40
have
20:40
some,
20:41
you
20:41
know,
20:41
new
20:41
age
20:41
notions
20:42
about
20:42
dying,
20:43
but
20:44
the
20:44
process
20:45
of
20:45
dying
20:45
strips
20:46
us
20:47
of
20:47
our
20:47
identities,
20:48
or
20:48
we
20:48
gracefully
20:49
give
20:49
them
20:49
up,
20:50
but
20:50
they
20:50
all
20:50
go
20:50
at
20:51
some
20:51
juncture,
20:52
and
20:52
then
20:52
who
20:52
are
20:52
we?
20:53
Then?
20:53
What's.
20:53
What's
20:54
there?
20:54
What's
20:54
left?
20:55
And
20:55
I
20:55
think
20:56
that's
20:56
a
20:56
really
20:56
interesting
20:57
point
20:57
or
20:58
moment
20:58
in
20:58
the
20:59
dying
20:59
process.
21:00
Yeah.
21:01
Roger.
21:01
I
21:01
was
21:01
rafting
21:02
down
21:02
the.
21:03
Through
21:03
the
21:03
Grand
21:04
Canyon
21:04
once,
21:05
and
21:06
in
21:06
these
21:06
big,
21:07
big,
21:07
big
21:07
wonderful
21:08
rapids
21:08
that
21:09
are
21:09
there.
21:09
And
21:09
I
21:10
got
21:10
thrown
21:10
out
21:10
of
21:10
the
21:11
raft
21:12
and
21:13
into
21:13
a
21:13
kind
21:13
of
21:13
whirlpool
21:14
that
21:14
started
21:14
to
21:14
take
21:15
me
21:15
down.
21:15
And
21:15
I
21:15
did
21:15
all
21:16
the
21:16
wrong
21:16
things.
21:16
You
21:17
know,
21:17
I.
21:17
I
21:18
tried
21:18
to
21:18
swim
21:19
to
21:19
the
21:19
edge
21:19
of
21:19
the
21:19
whirlpool
21:20
as
21:20
if
21:20
it
21:20
were
21:20
the
21:20
edge
21:21
of
21:21
a
21:21
pool
21:21
and
21:21
I
21:21
could
21:21
climb
21:22
out.
21:22
They
21:22
threw
21:23
me
21:23
ropes
21:23
and
21:23
I
21:23
couldn't
21:24
get
21:24
to
21:24
them.
21:24
I
21:24
did
21:24
all
21:24
the
21:24
wrong
21:25
things.
21:25
And
21:26
finally
21:26
the
21:26
whirlpool
21:27
took
21:27
me
21:27
down,
21:28
and
21:29
it
21:29
took
21:29
me
21:29
down,
21:30
and
21:30
it
21:30
was
21:30
not
21:31
a
21:31
beautiful
21:32
moment
21:32
of
21:32
dying.
21:32
It
21:33
was
21:33
chaotic
21:33
and
21:34
the
21:34
water
21:34
was
21:35
muddy,
21:35
and
21:35
I
21:36
couldn't
21:37
find
21:37
myself.
21:37
It
21:37
was
21:37
like
21:38
being
21:38
in
21:38
some
21:38
giant
21:39
washing
21:39
machine.
21:41
And
21:41
I
21:41
fought
21:42
and
21:42
fought
21:42
and
21:43
fought
21:44
until
21:44
finally
21:45
I
21:45
was
21:45
too
21:45
exhausted
21:46
to
21:46
keep
21:46
fighting.
21:48
And
21:48
then
21:49
something
21:49
released,
21:50
and
21:50
it
21:50
wasn't
21:51
beautiful.
21:51
It
21:51
dragged
21:52
me
21:52
down
21:52
to
21:53
the
21:53
bottom
21:53
of
21:53
the
21:53
river
21:54
and
21:54
pulled
21:54
me
21:55
along
21:55
the
21:55
bottom
21:55
of
21:56
the.
21:56
Along
21:56
the
21:57
Mud
21:57
and
21:57
rocks.
21:59
But
21:59
there
21:59
was
21:59
some
22:00
moment
22:00
of
22:01
releasing
22:01
that
22:02
happened
22:02
in
22:02
that.
22:04
I
22:04
can't
22:04
say
22:04
that
22:05
it
22:05
was
22:05
graceful.
22:06
And
22:06
eventually
22:07
it
22:07
dragged
22:08
me
22:08
down
22:08
the
22:08
river
22:08
and
22:08
brought
22:09
me
22:09
into
22:09
an
22:09
eddy
22:10
and
22:10
spit
22:10
me
22:10
out
22:11
into
22:11
the
22:12
shoreline.
22:13
And
22:14
I
22:14
felt
22:14
like
22:15
I
22:15
emerged
22:16
with
22:16
a
22:16
different
22:16
set
22:17
of
22:17
eyes.
22:18
Now,
22:19
I'm
22:20
not
22:20
a
22:20
big
22:20
believer
22:20
in
22:21
near
22:21
death
22:21
experiences.
22:22
I
22:22
don't
22:22
think
22:22
that's
22:23
what
22:23
happened
22:23
to
22:23
me.
22:23
I
22:23
think
22:24
I
22:24
almost
22:24
drowned.
22:25
That's
22:25
as
22:26
clear
22:26
as
22:26
I
22:26
could
22:26
be
22:26
about
22:27
it.
22:27
Yeah.
22:28
But
22:28
it
22:28
helped
22:29
me
22:29
to
22:29
understand
22:30
later
22:31
when
22:31
I
22:31
would
22:31
be
22:31
with
22:31
dying
22:32
people
22:32
and
22:33
Barbara
22:33
would
22:33
say,
22:35
I'm
22:35
just
22:36
putting
22:37
my
22:37
head
22:37
in
22:37
the
22:37
lap
22:37
of
22:38
Jesus
22:39
or,
22:39
you
22:40
know,
22:41
not
22:41
my
22:41
job
22:42
anymore.
22:43
Or
22:43
they
22:43
would
22:44
say
22:44
things
22:44
like
22:44
this
22:44
to
22:45
me
22:45
and
22:45
I
22:45
would
22:46
begin
22:46
to
22:46
understand
22:47
something
22:47
of
22:48
what
22:48
they
22:48
were
22:48
talking
22:48
about.
22:50
Some
22:51
deep
22:51
relaxation,
22:52
I
22:53
could
22:53
say.
22:54
And
22:54
I
22:54
think
22:54
that
22:55
this
22:55
is
22:56
another
22:56
way
22:56
of
22:56
us
22:57
understanding
22:57
surrender.
22:58
It's
22:59
not
22:59
just
22:59
as
22:59
a
23:00
giving
23:00
up
23:01
or
23:01
that
23:01
we're
23:02
losing
23:02
the
23:02
battle,
23:03
but
23:04
rather
23:05
that
23:06
we're
23:06
not
23:06
fighting.
23:07
And
23:08
so
23:08
we
23:08
have
23:08
the
23:08
opportunity
23:09
to
23:09
see
23:09
more
23:10
of
23:10
who
23:10
we
23:10
are,
23:12
see
23:12
more
23:12
of
23:12
the
23:13
experience,
23:13
because
23:14
our
23:14
vision
23:15
isn't
23:15
just
23:16
focused
23:16
on
23:17
keeping
23:17
it
23:17
all
23:17
going.
23:19
I
23:20
have
23:20
a
23:20
question
23:20
for
23:21
you,
23:21
Frank.
23:21
Do
23:22
you
23:22
often
23:22
feel
23:23
when
23:23
you're
23:24
talking
23:24
or
23:24
you're
23:24
teaching
23:25
to
23:25
us,
23:25
like
23:25
now,
23:26
that
23:26
sometimes
23:27
you're
23:27
talking
23:28
to
23:28
your
23:28
own
23:28
soul?
23:30
In
23:30
other
23:30
words,
23:31
you're
23:31
giving
23:31
yourself
23:31
the
23:32
medicine
23:32
that
23:32
you
23:32
need.
23:33
I
23:33
had
23:33
an
23:33
experience
23:34
yesterday.
23:34
I
23:34
was
23:34
doing
23:34
a
23:35
guided
23:35
meditation
23:36
two
23:36
days
23:36
ago,
23:37
which
23:37
I
23:37
do
23:37
every
23:37
week,
23:38
and
23:38
I
23:39
just
23:39
started
23:39
talking
23:39
about,
23:41
you
23:41
know,
23:41
the
23:41
great
23:41
mystery
23:42
of
23:42
existence.
23:42
What
23:42
math
23:43
can't
23:43
take
23:43
us
23:43
there.
23:44
We
23:44
don't
23:45
know
23:45
death
23:45
came
23:46
into
23:46
it.
23:46
I
23:46
think
23:46
it
23:47
was
23:47
probably
23:48
I
23:48
was
23:48
influenced
23:48
by
23:49
the
23:49
preparation
23:49
for
23:50
this
23:50
conversation
23:50
with
23:51
you.
23:52
And
23:52
we
23:52
talked
23:52
about.
23:53
I
23:53
can't
23:53
remember
23:53
all
23:54
I
23:54
said,
23:54
but
23:54
when
23:54
I
23:55
finished,
23:57
I
23:57
had
23:57
this
23:57
great
23:58
sense
23:58
of
23:58
peace
23:59
about
23:59
existence,
24:01
about
24:01
non
24:01
existence,
24:02
about
24:02
death,
24:02
the
24:03
great
24:03
mysteries
24:03
that
24:04
confront
24:04
us.
24:04
And
24:05
I
24:05
was
24:05
like,
24:06
man,
24:06
I
24:06
was
24:06
talking,
24:07
you
24:07
know,
24:07
my
24:08
soul
24:08
was
24:08
preaching
24:08
to
24:08
my
24:09
soul
24:09
or
24:09
something.
24:09
It
24:09
was
24:10
coming
24:10
through
24:10
and
24:11
it
24:11
really
24:12
helped.
24:12
So
24:12
do
24:12
you
24:13
experience
24:13
that
24:14
when
24:14
you're
24:14
in
24:14
the
24:14
zone
24:15
and
24:15
when
24:15
the
24:15
presence
24:16
that
24:16
you
24:16
have,
24:17
this
24:17
sense
24:17
of
24:17
peace
24:18
and
24:18
wisdom
24:19
that
24:20
you
24:20
transmit
24:21
is
24:22
also
24:22
coming
24:22
back
24:23
at
24:23
you
24:23
and
24:23
helping
24:24
you
24:24
in
24:24
your
24:24
own
24:25
struggle
24:25
with
24:26
the
24:26
great
24:26
mystery
24:26
of
24:27
our
24:27
imminent
24:28
death?
24:29
Well,
24:30
I'm
24:30
getting
24:30
it
24:30
from
24:30
you
24:31
right
24:31
now,
24:31
John,
24:32
really
24:32
hearing
24:33
your
24:33
presence
24:34
and
24:34
how
24:35
all
24:35
this,
24:35
this
24:35
conversation
24:36
is
24:36
impacting
24:36
you?
24:37
I
24:38
mean,
24:38
teachers
24:39
always
24:39
teach
24:39
what
24:39
they
24:40
need
24:40
to
24:40
learn,
24:40
oftentimes.
24:41
And
24:42
I
24:42
remember
24:42
when
24:42
I
24:43
first
24:43
started
24:43
teaching,
24:43
a
24:44
dear
24:44
friend
24:44
of
24:44
mine
24:45
gave
24:45
me
24:46
a
24:46
mantra
24:46
he
24:47
said,
24:47
this
24:47
is
24:47
a
24:47
very
24:48
important
24:48
mantra
24:48
that
24:49
you
24:49
should
24:49
learn
24:49
as
24:49
a
24:49
teacher.
24:50
And
24:50
I
24:51
waited,
24:51
you
24:51
know,
24:51
for
24:52
the
24:52
great
24:52
wisdom
24:52
to
24:53
appear.
24:53
And
24:53
the
24:54
mantra
24:54
was,
24:55
I
24:55
might
24:55
be
24:56
wrong,
24:58
you
24:58
know.
24:58
And
24:59
so
24:59
I
24:59
hold
24:59
that
25:00
closely,
25:00
that
25:01
particular
25:01
mantra.
25:03
A
25:03
while
25:03
back,
25:04
after
25:04
a
25:04
series
25:04
of
25:05
strokes,
25:05
I
25:05
was
25:05
sitting
25:05
in
25:06
front
25:06
of
25:06
my
25:06
computer
25:06
one
25:07
day,
25:07
and
25:08
I
25:08
looked
25:08
at
25:08
the
25:08
computer,
25:09
and
25:09
everything
25:09
got
25:09
very
25:10
pixelated.
25:11
And
25:11
it
25:11
wasn't
25:12
just
25:12
on
25:12
the
25:12
screen
25:12
of
25:13
the
25:13
computer.
25:13
I
25:13
turned
25:13
toward
25:14
the
25:14
wall,
25:14
and
25:14
the
25:14
wall
25:15
was
25:15
pixelated
25:16
as
25:16
well.
25:16
And
25:16
I
25:16
thought,
25:17
what
25:17
is
25:17
this?
25:17
You
25:18
know,
25:18
maybe
25:18
this
25:18
is
25:18
some
25:18
great
25:19
awakening
25:20
experience
25:20
that
25:20
I'm
25:21
having.
25:21
Yeah.
25:21
And
25:21
then
25:22
I
25:22
realized,
25:22
oh,
25:23
no,
25:23
something
25:23
else
25:24
is
25:24
happening.
25:24
So
25:24
I
25:25
called
25:25
my
25:25
wife
25:25
at
25:25
the
25:26
time,
25:26
and
25:26
I
25:26
said,
25:27
I
25:27
think
25:27
I
25:27
might
25:27
be
25:28
having
25:28
another
25:28
stroke.
25:28
And
25:29
so
25:29
she
25:29
said,
25:29
okay.
25:29
And
25:29
she
25:29
called
25:30
911
25:30
and
25:30
I'll
25:31
be
25:31
right
25:31
there.
25:31
And
25:31
I
25:32
continued
25:32
to
25:32
just
25:33
stay
25:34
looking
25:34
at
25:34
this
25:34
pixelation.
25:36
And
25:37
she
25:37
got
25:37
home,
25:38
and
25:38
I
25:38
live
25:38
on
25:38
a
25:38
houseboat,
25:39
you
25:39
know,
25:39
And
25:40
I
25:40
have
25:40
to
25:40
walk
25:40
down
25:40
a
25:41
long
25:41
dock
25:41
to
25:41
get
25:42
to
25:42
the
25:42
parking
25:42
lot.
25:43
And
25:43
my
25:44
wife
25:44
said
25:44
that
25:45
emergency
25:45
techs
25:46
are
25:46
coming.
25:46
And
25:46
I
25:47
said,
25:47
I
25:47
want
25:47
to
25:47
walk
25:47
down
25:48
the
25:48
dock.
25:49
And
25:49
she
25:50
said,
25:50
you
25:50
foolish
25:50
old
25:50
man.
25:51
No,
25:51
just
25:51
stay
25:51
still.
25:52
You
25:52
know,
25:52
they'll
25:52
come
25:53
with
25:53
a
25:53
gurney.
25:53
I
25:54
said,
25:54
no,
25:54
I
25:54
want
25:54
to
25:54
feel
25:54
my
25:55
feet.
25:56
So
25:56
we
25:57
started
25:57
walking
25:57
down
25:57
the
25:58
dock.
25:58
And
25:58
I
25:58
was
25:58
quite
25:59
unstable.
25:59
I
26:00
mean,
26:00
physically,
26:00
I
26:01
had
26:01
to
26:01
hold
26:01
on
26:01
to
26:01
her
26:02
and
26:02
the
26:02
railings.
26:04
But
26:04
internally,
26:05
there
26:06
was
26:06
this
26:06
great
26:06
sense
26:07
of
26:07
ease
26:08
and
26:08
a
26:09
great
26:09
sense
26:09
of
26:09
love.
26:10
And
26:10
I
26:10
wasn't
26:11
doing
26:11
anything,
26:11
John.
26:12
I
26:12
wasn't
26:13
trying
26:13
to
26:13
do
26:13
Mecca
26:14
practice
26:14
or
26:14
loving
26:15
kindness
26:15
practice
26:15
or
26:15
any
26:16
of
26:16
these
26:16
things.
26:16
It
26:17
just
26:17
was
26:17
there.
26:19
And
26:19
about
26:19
halfway
26:20
down
26:20
the
26:20
dock,
26:21
I
26:22
said,
26:22
just
26:22
a
26:22
minute.
26:22
And
26:23
she
26:23
said,
26:23
no,
26:23
we
26:23
have
26:23
to
26:23
go.
26:24
And
26:24
I
26:24
said,
26:24
just
26:24
a
26:24
minute.
26:25
I
26:25
looked
26:25
over
26:25
the
26:25
railing
26:26
into
26:26
the
26:26
water.
26:27
And
26:27
as
26:27
I
26:28
did,
26:28
everything
26:29
disappeared.
26:30
Everything.
26:31
There
26:32
was
26:32
an
26:32
absolute
26:33
absence,
26:35
different
26:35
than
26:35
emptiness
26:36
I'd
26:36
experienced
26:37
before.
26:37
There
26:38
was
26:38
no
26:38
qualities
26:39
to
26:39
this
26:40
absence.
26:41
It
26:42
was
26:44
before
26:44
qualities.
26:45
I
26:45
don't
26:45
know
26:45
how
26:45
to
26:46
say
26:46
it.
26:46
It
26:46
didn't
26:47
feel
26:47
kind.
26:47
It
26:48
didn't
26:48
feel
26:48
wise.
26:49
It
26:49
didn't
26:49
feel
26:49
any
26:50
of
26:50
these
26:50
things.
26:50
It
26:51
just
26:51
was
26:51
absent
26:52
of
26:52
everything.
26:54
And
26:54
I
26:54
remained
26:55
in
26:55
that
26:55
for
26:55
a
26:55
while
26:55
until
26:56
she
26:56
grabbed
26:56
me
26:56
and
26:56
said,
26:57
we
26:57
have
26:57
to
26:57
go
26:57
to
26:57
the
26:57
ambulance.
26:58
And
26:58
we
26:58
went
26:58
down
26:58
a
26:59
little
26:59
bit
26:59
further,
26:59
and
27:00
I
27:00
had
27:00
a
27:00
grand
27:01
mal
27:01
seizure
27:01
into
27:02
the
27:02
arms
27:02
of
27:02
the
27:03
emergency
27:03
tech.
27:05
They
27:05
gave
27:06
me
27:06
some
27:06
medication,
27:06
took
27:07
me
27:07
to
27:07
the
27:07
hospital.
27:07
This
27:07
was
27:08
during
27:08
COVID
27:08
so
27:09
she
27:09
couldn't
27:09
come
27:09
in.
27:10
And
27:11
while
27:11
I
27:11
was
27:11
in
27:11
the
27:11
hospital,
27:12
they
27:12
gave
27:12
me
27:12
some
27:12
more
27:13
medication.
27:13
And
27:14
one
27:14
of
27:14
its
27:14
side
27:14
Effects
27:15
I
27:15
learned
27:15
later
27:16
is
27:16
paranoia.
27:18
Roger,
27:18
you
27:18
know
27:19
about
27:19
these
27:19
things.
27:19
I'd
27:20
never
27:20
been
27:20
paranoid
27:21
in
27:21
my
27:21
life.
27:21
I've
27:21
been
27:21
with
27:22
paranoid
27:22
people.
27:22
But
27:23
it
27:23
induced
27:24
this
27:24
paranoia
27:25
and
27:25
it
27:25
stayed
27:26
for
27:26
a
27:26
long
27:26
time,
27:27
maybe
27:27
two
27:28
days.
27:28
I
27:28
was
27:28
so
27:28
paranoid,
27:29
I
27:29
couldn't
27:29
tell
27:29
the
27:30
healthcare
27:30
clinicians
27:31
that
27:31
I
27:31
was
27:31
paranoid.
27:33
And
27:33
in
27:34
this
27:34
state
27:35
again,
27:36
I
27:36
couldn't
27:36
stabilize
27:37
really.
27:38
So
27:38
I
27:38
just
27:39
started
27:39
to
27:39
repeat
27:39
this
27:40
phrase,
27:41
right
27:41
now
27:41
it's
27:42
like
27:42
this,
27:43
right
27:44
now
27:44
it's
27:45
like
27:45
this.
27:46
And
27:47
that
27:47
was
27:47
helpful.
27:49
Ultimately,
27:50
the
27:50
paranoia
27:51
wear
27:51
off.
27:51
Maybe
27:51
I
27:52
adjusted
27:52
to
27:52
the
27:52
medication,
27:53
I
27:53
can't
27:53
say.
27:54
And
27:55
sometime
27:55
later
27:55
I
27:55
spoke
27:56
to
27:56
one
27:56
of
27:56
my
27:56
teachers
27:57
about
27:57
it
27:57
and
27:57
I
27:58
said,
27:58
you
27:58
know,
27:58
suppose
27:59
this
27:59
was
27:59
the
27:59
moment
27:59
of
28:00
my
28:00
dying.
28:01
And
28:01
he
28:01
said,
28:01
well,
28:02
it
28:03
doesn't,
28:03
you
28:03
know,
28:03
I
28:03
told
28:03
him
28:04
the
28:04
story
28:04
I
28:04
just
28:04
told
28:04
you.
28:04
He
28:05
doesn't
28:05
surprise
28:05
him.
28:05
You
28:06
had
28:06
all
28:06
this
28:06
love
28:06
or
28:06
you've
28:07
been
28:07
cultivating
28:07
it
28:08
all
28:08
these
28:08
years,
28:08
of
28:08
course
28:09
you
28:09
had.
28:10
And
28:10
I
28:10
said,
28:10
yeah,
28:11
but
28:11
what
28:11
about
28:11
the
28:11
paranoia?
28:13
Suppose
28:13
that
28:13
was
28:13
the
28:14
moment
28:14
of
28:14
my
28:14
dying.
28:14
He
28:14
said,
28:15
oh,
28:15
it'd
28:15
be
28:15
okay.
28:16
I
28:17
said,
28:17
okay?
28:17
What
28:17
do
28:17
you
28:17
mean
28:17
it'll
28:18
be
28:18
okay?
28:18
He
28:19
said,
28:19
oh,
28:20
when
28:20
you
28:20
died,
28:20
your
28:20
brain
28:21
would
28:21
stop
28:21
and
28:21
the
28:21
paranoia
28:22
would
28:22
go
28:22
away
28:22
and
28:23
awareness
28:23
would
28:23
return.
28:26
And
28:26
it
28:26
was
28:27
a
28:27
little
28:27
too
28:28
simplistic
28:28
for
28:28
me
28:29
at
28:29
the
28:29
time,
28:30
but
28:30
I
28:30
thought
28:30
it's
28:31
a
28:31
pretty
28:31
wise
28:32
teaching,
28:32
actually.
28:33
It's
28:33
a
28:33
very
28:33
wise
28:34
teaching.
28:35
So
28:36
I
28:36
have
28:36
confidence
28:37
in
28:37
this.
28:38
I
28:38
have
28:38
a
28:38
deep
28:39
confidence
28:39
in
28:39
this,
28:40
in
28:40
my
28:40
own
28:41
experience.
28:41
And
28:42
when
28:42
I'm
28:42
sitting
28:42
beside
28:43
someone
28:43
who's
28:43
dying
28:44
and
28:45
I
28:45
think
28:45
when
28:46
we
28:46
can
28:46
reside
28:47
in
28:47
this
28:48
and
28:48
there's
28:48
less
28:49
and
28:50
there's
28:50
more
28:50
fearlessness,
28:51
and
28:51
I
28:51
don't
28:51
mean
28:51
there's
28:51
no
28:52
fear.
28:53
And
28:53
I
28:53
think
28:53
this
28:54
is
28:54
a
28:54
great
28:54
aid
28:55
to
28:55
people
28:55
in
28:55
their
28:56
dying
28:56
process
28:56
and
28:58
I
28:58
would
28:58
hope
28:58
to
28:58
encourage
28:59
this
28:59
in
28:59
the
29:00
lives
29:00
of
29:00
others.
29:00
Yeah,
29:01
I
29:02
wanted
29:02
to
29:02
say
29:03
the
29:03
kind
29:03
of
29:03
the
29:04
opposite
29:04
of
29:04
that
29:05
surrender
29:05
is
29:06
the
29:06
contraction
29:07
that
29:07
we
29:08
feel
29:08
around
29:08
fear.
29:09
You
29:09
know,
29:10
you
29:10
start
29:10
thinking
29:10
about
29:11
our
29:12
non
29:12
existence
29:12
or
29:13
dying.
29:13
I
29:14
can
29:14
actually
29:14
feel
29:14
kind
29:15
of
29:15
my
29:15
heart
29:16
closing
29:17
up.
29:17
It's
29:17
definite
29:18
contraction.
29:18
And
29:19
what
29:19
you're
29:19
talking
29:19
about
29:20
is
29:20
this
29:20
surrender
29:21
and
29:21
opening
29:22
what
29:22
feels
29:22
like
29:23
grace
29:23
for
29:23
me.
29:23
Like
29:24
I
29:24
said,
29:24
I'm
29:24
pretty
29:24
God
29:24
centric,
29:25
I
29:25
talk
29:25
in
29:25
those
29:25
terms,
29:27
but
29:27
it
29:27
feels
29:27
like
29:27
something
29:28
beyond
29:29
my
29:29
own
29:30
dedication
29:30
to
29:31
practice
29:31
and
29:31
everything.
29:32
There's
29:32
something
29:33
that
29:33
kicks
29:33
in
29:34
that's
29:35
I
29:35
can't
29:35
take
29:36
credit
29:36
for,
29:36
but
29:36
that
29:37
I'm.
29:37
Grateful
29:37
for
29:38
imagining
29:38
that,
29:39
John,
29:39
that
29:40
God
29:40
is
29:40
holding
29:40
your
29:41
hand,
29:41
so
29:41
to
29:41
speak,
29:42
and
29:42
your
29:42
heart
29:42
is
29:42
hurting,
29:43
right?
29:43
It's
29:43
literally
29:44
physically
29:44
hurting
29:44
and
29:45
it's
29:45
contracted.
29:46
There's
29:46
this
29:46
sense
29:46
of,
29:47
oh
29:47
my,
29:48
what's
29:48
going
29:48
to
29:48
happen
29:48
next.
29:49
Right.
29:49
But
29:50
imagine
29:50
if
29:50
something
29:51
or
29:51
someone
29:52
was
29:52
holding
29:52
your
29:52
hand
29:53
in
29:53
that
29:53
moment
29:55
and
29:55
that
29:55
something
29:56
or
29:56
someone
29:56
wasn't
29:57
so
29:57
afraid.
29:59
What
29:59
do
29:59
you
29:59
think
29:59
the
29:59
influence
30:00
on
30:00
you
30:00
might
30:00
be?
30:05
So,
30:06
you
30:06
know,
30:06
this
30:06
is
30:06
why
30:06
I'm,
30:07
of
30:07
course,
30:08
I'm
30:08
interested
30:09
in
30:09
how
30:09
we
30:09
care
30:10
for
30:10
people
30:10
at
30:10
the
30:10
end
30:10
of
30:11
life.
30:11
This
30:11
is
30:11
very
30:12
important
30:12
to
30:12
me.
30:12
But
30:12
I'm
30:13
much
30:13
more
30:13
interested
30:14
in
30:14
what
30:14
do
30:14
we
30:15
learn
30:15
from
30:15
being
30:16
with
30:16
dying
30:17
that
30:17
can
30:17
help
30:17
us
30:17
to
30:18
live
30:18
more
30:18
meaningful
30:19
and
30:19
rich
30:20
and
30:20
full
30:20
lives,
30:21
purposeful
30:21
lives.
30:22
That's
30:23
what
30:23
really
30:23
interests
30:24
me
30:24
these
30:24
days.
30:25
I'm
30:26
a
30:26
little
30:26
allergic
30:27
to
30:27
the
30:27
idea
30:27
of
30:27
a
30:27
good
30:28
death,
30:28
to
30:28
be
30:28
honest.
30:29
In
30:30
our
30:30
culture,
30:31
we
30:31
tend
30:31
to
30:32
promote
30:32
this
30:32
idea.
30:33
And
30:33
it's
30:33
not
30:34
that
30:34
we
30:34
shouldn't
30:34
try
30:34
and
30:34
help
30:35
people
30:35
to
30:35
have
30:36
ease
30:36
of
30:36
pain
30:37
or
30:37
ease
30:37
of
30:37
from
30:38
certain
30:38
symptoms,
30:39
but
30:40
I'm
30:40
a
30:40
little
30:41
worried
30:42
that
30:42
we
30:44
add
30:44
on
30:45
or
30:46
subject
30:47
people
30:47
who
30:47
are
30:47
dying
30:48
to
30:48
our
30:49
standard
30:49
about
30:50
how
30:50
it
30:50
should
30:50
go,
30:52
what
30:52
it
30:52
should
30:52
look
30:52
like.
30:53
I
30:53
mean,
30:53
I
30:54
think
30:54
dying
30:54
is
30:54
pretty
30:54
damn
30:55
hard.
30:56
It's
30:56
hard
30:56
enough
30:57
without
30:57
us
30:57
adding
30:58
onto
30:58
it
30:58
some
30:59
spiritual
30:59
standard
31:00
about
31:00
how
31:00
they
31:00
should
31:01
go
31:01
through.
31:03
So
31:04
I
31:04
don't
31:04
have
31:05
a
31:05
way
31:05
in
31:05
which
31:05
I
31:05
think
31:06
people
31:06
should
31:06
die.
31:07
I've
31:08
been
31:08
with
31:08
people
31:08
in
31:08
all
31:09
kinds
31:09
of
31:09
situations
31:10
and
31:10
all
31:10
kinds
31:10
of
31:11
circumstances,
31:11
and
31:12
we
31:13
die
31:14
the
31:14
way
31:15
we
31:15
die.
31:15
I
31:16
don't
31:16
think
31:16
it's
31:16
true
31:17
that
31:17
we
31:17
die
31:17
the
31:17
way
31:18
we
31:18
live.
31:18
I
31:18
don't
31:18
think
31:18
that's.
31:19
I
31:19
think
31:19
that's
31:19
another
31:19
cliche.
31:20
I
31:20
think
31:21
we
31:21
just
31:21
die
31:21
according
31:22
to
31:22
the
31:22
causes
31:23
and
31:23
conditions
31:23
that
31:23
are
31:23
present
31:24
in
31:24
that
31:24
moment.
31:26
And
31:26
yes,
31:27
of
31:27
course,
31:27
it
31:27
can
31:27
be
31:27
helpful
31:28
to
31:28
have
31:28
a
31:28
kind,
31:29
loving,
31:29
fearless
31:30
person
31:30
next
31:31
to
31:31
you,
31:32
but
31:34
don't
31:35
want
31:35
to
31:35
add
31:37
a
31:37
bunch
31:37
of
31:39
how
31:39
people
31:40
should
31:40
do
31:40
it.
31:40
I
31:41
just
31:41
don't
31:41
want
31:41
to
31:41
do
31:41
that.
31:42
I
31:42
think
31:42
however
31:42
they
31:43
do
31:43
it
31:44
is
31:44
fine.
31:45
And
31:45
that
31:45
feels
31:46
like
31:46
one
31:46
of
31:46
the
31:47
central
31:47
themes
31:48
of
31:49
your
31:49
work
31:49
and
31:50
the
31:50
way
31:50
you
31:50
approach
31:51
death
31:51
and
31:51
the
31:51
dying.
31:52
Frank,
31:52
from
31:52
reading
31:53
your
31:53
book
31:53
and
31:53
the
31:54
five
31:54
invitations
31:55
is
31:55
there's
31:56
a
31:56
radical
31:56
acceptance
31:58
on
31:58
your
31:58
part
31:59
and
31:59
radical
31:59
openness.
32:00
And
32:01
I
32:01
guess
32:01
that's
32:02
close
32:02
to
32:03
two
32:03
of
32:04
the
32:04
central
32:04
principles
32:05
you
32:05
enunciate
32:06
in
32:06
the
32:07
five
32:07
invitations.
32:07
You
32:08
call
32:08
them
32:08
invitations.
32:09
One
32:09
could
32:10
call
32:10
them
32:10
principles
32:12
or
32:12
suggestions
32:13
for
32:13
ways
32:14
of
32:14
approaching
32:14
death
32:15
and
32:15
life.
32:16
One
32:16
of
32:16
them
32:17
is
32:17
cultivate
32:17
don't
32:18
know
32:18
mind.
32:19
The
32:19
other
32:19
is
32:20
welcome
32:20
everything
32:21
and
32:22
push
32:22
away
32:22
nothing.
32:23
And
32:23
feels
32:23
like
32:24
that's.
32:25
Those
32:25
are
32:25
very
32:26
central
32:26
to
32:27
this
32:27
attitude
32:27
you're
32:28
suggesting
32:28
or
32:29
the
32:29
don't
32:29
know
32:30
mind
32:30
about
32:30
dying.
32:31
You
32:31
know,
32:31
it's
32:31
like,
32:32
great,
32:32
so
32:32
we
32:32
brought
32:33
dying
32:33
out
32:33
of
32:33
the
32:33
closet.
32:34
But
32:35
now,
32:36
but
32:36
There's
32:36
a
32:36
trap
32:37
at
32:37
every
32:37
stage
32:38
of
32:38
both
32:38
individual
32:39
and
32:39
cultural
32:39
development.
32:40
Now
32:40
it's
32:40
like,
32:40
oh,
32:41
now
32:41
we
32:41
know
32:41
more
32:42
about
32:42
dying
32:42
and
32:42
this
32:43
is
32:43
a
32:43
possibility.
32:43
So
32:44
we
32:44
should
32:44
all
32:44
have
32:45
this
32:45
experience,
32:46
right.
32:46
And
32:47
honestly
32:47
Roger,
32:48
it's
32:49
rampant
32:49
in
32:49
spiritual
32:50
communities
32:52
and
32:52
in
32:52
our
32:52
transpersonal
32:53
psychology
32:54
movements,
32:54
you
32:54
know,
32:54
it's
32:55
rampant
32:55
about
32:56
how
32:56
we
32:56
should
32:56
do
32:56
it.
32:57
I
32:57
was
32:57
sitting
32:58
retreat
32:58
with
32:58
someone
32:58
you
32:58
know
32:59
very
32:59
well
33:00
and
33:00
this
33:00
person
33:01
was
33:01
speaking
33:02
about
33:02
the
33:02
last
33:03
moment
33:03
is
33:03
the
33:03
most
33:03
important
33:04
moment
33:05
in
33:05
the
33:05
dying
33:05
process
33:05
is
33:06
a,
33:06
you
33:06
know,
33:06
common
33:07
Buddhist
33:07
teaching,
33:07
right.
33:08
And
33:09
I
33:09
went
33:09
up
33:09
to
33:09
this
33:09
person
33:10
afterwards
33:10
and
33:10
I
33:10
said,
33:11
can
33:12
I
33:12
ask
33:12
you
33:12
please
33:13
to
33:14
consider
33:14
something?
33:15
And
33:15
this
33:15
person
33:16
said
33:16
yes,
33:16
of
33:16
course.
33:17
And
33:17
I,
33:17
I,
33:17
I
33:17
said
33:18
would
33:18
you
33:18
please
33:18
stop
33:18
telling
33:19
people
33:19
that?
33:21
And,
33:22
and
33:22
he
33:22
said
33:22
but
33:23
you
33:23
know,
33:23
it's,
33:23
it's
33:24
in
33:24
the
33:24
text
33:24
and
33:25
it
33:25
isn't,
33:25
isn't
33:26
it
33:26
most
33:26
important?
33:26
I
33:26
said
33:27
it's
33:27
very
33:28
conducive
33:28
to
33:29
making
33:29
people
33:29
feel
33:29
guilty
33:30
that
33:31
they
33:31
didn't
33:31
do
33:31
it.
33:31
Right.
33:31
That
33:32
their
33:32
mother
33:32
was
33:32
on
33:32
morphine
33:33
and
33:33
which
33:33
should
33:33
we
33:33
have
33:34
given
33:34
her
33:34
the
33:34
morphine
33:34
or
33:35
not
33:35
to
33:35
manage
33:35
her
33:35
pain
33:35
and
33:36
did
33:36
we
33:36
cause
33:36
her
33:36
to
33:36
be
33:37
less
33:37
conscious,
33:37
et
33:38
cetera.
33:38
And
33:39
again,
33:39
these
33:40
are
33:40
idealistic
33:41
ideas
33:42
that
33:42
keep
33:43
us
33:43
from
33:43
being
33:44
with
33:44
what's
33:44
actually
33:44
happening
33:45
as
33:45
it's
33:46
happening.
33:48
Yeah.
33:49
And
33:49
it
33:50
feels
33:50
like
33:50
that
33:51
is
33:51
also
33:52
so
33:52
central
33:52
to
33:53
what
33:53
I
33:54
take
33:54
away
33:54
from
33:54
your
33:55
book
33:55
and
33:55
your
33:55
teachings
33:56
is
33:56
that
33:57
the
33:58
being
33:58
with
33:59
in
33:59
an
33:59
open
33:59
hearted
34:00
way,
34:01
as
34:02
you
34:02
say,
34:02
don't
34:02
know
34:03
mine.
34:05
And
34:05
that
34:06
feels
34:06
like
34:06
a
34:06
priceless
34:07
gift
34:07
to
34:07
give
34:07
someone,
34:08
free
34:08
them
34:08
from
34:09
our
34:09
expectations.
34:11
Ram
34:11
Dass
34:11
once
34:12
told
34:12
a
34:12
story
34:13
years
34:13
ago
34:13
which
34:13
really
34:14
stuck
34:14
with
34:14
me.
34:15
He
34:15
said,
34:15
imagine
34:15
you're
34:16
a
34:16
person,
34:17
you're
34:17
dying.
34:17
And
34:18
I
34:18
think
34:18
he
34:18
said
34:19
just
34:19
imagine
34:19
you're,
34:20
you're
34:20
a
34:21
young
34:21
mother
34:21
who's
34:22
dying,
34:22
you're
34:22
leaving
34:23
a
34:23
couple
34:23
of
34:23
kids
34:24
and
34:25
imagine
34:25
everyone
34:26
coming
34:26
into
34:26
your
34:27
room
34:27
carrying
34:28
those,
34:28
you
34:29
know,
34:29
their
34:29
expectations
34:30
about
34:30
how
34:30
tragic
34:31
this
34:31
is.
34:31
And
34:32
so,
34:32
and
34:32
I
34:32
thought
34:33
that
34:33
really
34:33
stuck
34:34
with
34:34
me
34:34
as
34:34
a
34:34
story.
34:36
I
34:36
was
34:36
with
34:37
a
34:37
young
34:37
woman,
34:38
late
34:38
20s
34:39
I
34:39
think
34:39
she
34:39
was,
34:40
and
34:40
she
34:41
had
34:41
been
34:41
in
34:41
a
34:41
very
34:41
somnolent
34:42
state
34:43
for
34:44
days
34:45
and
34:46
not
34:46
eating,
34:47
not
34:47
drinking,
34:47
not
34:48
speaking,
34:48
etc.
34:50
He
34:50
wasn't
34:50
in
34:50
a
34:50
coma,
34:51
but
34:52
not
34:52
reachable
34:53
for
34:53
us.
34:55
And
34:55
her
34:55
mother
34:55
came
34:55
to
34:56
visit
34:56
and
34:56
her
34:56
mother
34:57
was,
34:57
and
34:57
her
34:57
had
34:57
a
34:58
very
34:58
difficult
34:58
time.
34:59
They
34:59
were,
35:00
mother
35:00
had
35:00
been
35:00
abusive
35:01
to
35:01
her
35:01
in
35:01
different
35:01
ways
35:02
and
35:02
they
35:02
were
35:02
estranged.
35:03
And
35:03
the
35:04
mother
35:04
came
35:04
and
35:04
sat
35:04
beside
35:05
the
35:05
bed
35:05
and
35:05
said
35:06
please
35:06
forgive
35:06
me,
35:07
forgive
35:07
me
35:07
for
35:08
all
35:08
the
35:08
things
35:08
I've
35:08
done.
35:08
I
35:09
love
35:09
you,
35:09
I'm
35:09
so
35:09
sorry
35:10
and
35:10
apologize.
35:11
I
35:11
think
35:11
sincerely
35:13
and
35:13
in
35:13
this
35:13
moment,
35:14
this
35:15
young
35:15
woman
35:16
sat
35:16
up
35:16
like
35:17
a
35:17
rocket,
35:18
came
35:19
out
35:19
of
35:19
this
35:19
side
35:19
mount
35:20
stage,
35:20
looked
35:20
at
35:20
her
35:20
mother
35:21
and
35:21
said,
35:21
I
35:21
hate
35:21
you.
35:22
I've
35:23
always
35:23
hated
35:23
you.
35:24
And
35:25
then
35:25
she
35:25
died.
35:27
Now,
35:28
is
35:28
that
35:29
a
35:29
terrible
35:29
death
35:30
or
35:30
is
35:30
it
35:30
a
35:30
truthful
35:31
death?
35:32
I
35:32
don't
35:33
know.
35:34
But
35:34
I
35:34
know
35:34
that
35:35
it
35:35
was
35:35
important
35:36
for
35:36
this
35:36
young
35:36
woman
35:37
to
35:37
be
35:37
able
35:37
to
35:37
say
35:37
that,
35:38
and
35:38
it
35:38
was
35:38
important
35:39
for
35:39
the
35:39
mother
35:39
to
35:39
hear
35:40
it.
35:40
And
35:40
when
35:41
I
35:41
worked
35:41
with
35:41
that
35:41
mother
35:42
over
35:42
the
35:42
next
35:42
several
35:42
months,
35:44
it
35:44
was
35:44
very
35:45
important
35:45
for
35:45
the
35:45
mother
35:46
to
35:46
work
35:46
with
35:47
what
35:47
her
35:47
daughter's
35:48
last
35:48
words
35:49
were
35:49
to
35:49
her.
35:50
And
35:50
the
35:50
healing
35:50
that
35:51
came
35:51
out
35:51
of
35:51
that
35:52
was
35:52
important
35:53
for
35:53
the
35:53
mother.
35:55
Now
35:55
the
35:55
challenge
35:55
for
35:56
us
35:56
is,
35:56
can
35:57
we
35:57
just
35:57
sit
35:57
still
35:58
in
35:58
a
35:58
room
35:58
like
35:59
that?
36:00
Can
36:00
we
36:00
not
36:01
leap
36:01
in
36:01
to
36:02
save
36:02
the
36:02
day?
36:03
I
36:04
didn't
36:04
say
36:04
a
36:04
word
36:04
in
36:05
that
36:05
experience.
36:05
There
36:06
were
36:06
no
36:06
words
36:06
that
36:07
could
36:07
touch
36:07
that.
36:08
All
36:09
we
36:09
can
36:09
do
36:09
in
36:09
such
36:09
moments
36:10
is
36:10
to
36:10
stay
36:10
present,
36:12
to
36:13
not
36:13
run
36:13
away,
36:14
not
36:14
leave
36:14
the
36:14
room.
36:16
And
36:16
so,
36:16
again,
36:17
I
36:17
don't
36:17
have
36:18
too
36:18
many
36:18
ideas
36:18
about
36:19
how
36:19
it's
36:19
supposed
36:20
to
36:20
go,
36:20
but
36:21
I
36:22
have
36:22
a
36:22
lot
36:22
of
36:22
trust
36:22
in
36:23
the
36:23
dying
36:23
process,
36:24
an
36:25
awful
36:25
lot
36:25
of
36:25
trust
36:25
in
36:25
it
36:26
and
36:26
what
36:26
it
36:26
can
36:26
show
36:27
us.
36:27
What
36:27
we
36:27
were
36:27
talking
36:28
about
36:28
earlier,
36:28
about
36:28
the
36:29
chaos
36:29
and
36:30
surrender,
36:30
transformation
36:31
that's
36:31
possible
36:32
in
36:32
this
36:34
process
36:35
that
36:35
we
36:35
are,
36:35
we've
36:36
become
36:36
so
36:36
frightened
36:37
of.
36:39
One
36:39
of
36:39
the
36:39
things
36:39
I
36:40
took
36:40
away
36:40
from
36:40
your
36:41
book.
36:42
And
36:42
maybe
36:42
I
36:42
want
36:42
to
36:43
just
36:43
take
36:43
a
36:43
moment
36:43
here,
36:44
Frank,
36:44
and
36:44
just
36:44
talk
36:45
about
36:45
the
36:45
book,
36:45
your
36:46
book.
36:46
The
36:46
Five
36:46
Invitations.
36:48
Discovering
36:48
what
36:48
Death
36:49
Can
36:49
Teach
36:49
Us
36:49
About
36:50
Living
36:50
Fully.
36:50
You
36:50
know,
36:51
I've
36:51
heard
36:51
about
36:52
this
36:52
book,
36:52
and
36:52
I
36:53
think
36:54
my
36:54
late
36:55
wife,
36:55
Frances,
36:56
had
36:56
it.
36:56
She
36:56
was
36:57
one
36:57
of
36:57
your
36:58
faculty
36:58
members
36:58
in
36:59
your
36:59
end
36:59
of
36:59
life
37:00
care
37:00
counseling
37:00
training
37:01
program.
37:02
But
37:02
I'd
37:02
never
37:03
actually
37:03
read
37:03
it.
37:03
And
37:03
three
37:04
days
37:04
ago
37:04
I
37:05
started
37:05
reading
37:06
and
37:06
I
37:07
figured,
37:07
oh,
37:07
dear,
37:07
I
37:07
probably
37:08
won't
37:08
get
37:08
through
37:08
it.
37:09
And
37:10
this
37:10
book
37:10
touched
37:11
me
37:11
as
37:11
much
37:12
as
37:12
any
37:12
book
37:12
I've
37:13
read
37:13
in
37:13
a
37:14
long,
37:14
long
37:14
time.
37:15
So
37:15
much
37:15
so
37:15
that
37:16
I
37:16
stopped
37:17
my.
37:17
I
37:18
dropped
37:18
everything
37:18
I
37:19
could.
37:19
I
37:19
stopped
37:20
writing.
37:21
I
37:21
just
37:21
wanted
37:22
to
37:22
get
37:22
through
37:22
as
37:22
much
37:23
of
37:23
this
37:23
book
37:23
as
37:23
possible,
37:24
both
37:24
in
37:24
preparation
37:25
for
37:25
our
37:26
dialogue
37:26
today,
37:27
but
37:27
more
37:27
for
37:28
my
37:28
own.
37:29
I
37:29
was
37:29
so
37:29
touched
37:30
by
37:30
it.
37:30
So
37:31
I'm
37:31
just.
37:31
I
37:32
find
37:32
this
37:32
enormously
37:34
touching,
37:35
wise,
37:36
impactful,
37:38
beautiful
37:39
work,
37:39
a
37:40
distillation
37:40
of
37:41
what
37:41
you've
37:42
learned.
37:42
I
37:42
was
37:43
very
37:43
touched
37:43
by
37:43
it.
37:43
I
37:44
really
37:45
can't
37:46
recommend
37:47
it
37:47
highly
37:47
enough.
37:47
So
37:48
thank
37:48
you
37:48
for.
37:48
Thank
37:49
you
37:49
for
37:49
that.
37:49
Was
37:49
there
37:50
a
37:50
major
37:50
takeaway
37:51
from
37:51
the
37:51
experience
37:51
of
37:52
reading
37:52
the
37:52
book?
37:52
Because
37:52
we
37:53
talked
37:53
while
37:53
you
37:54
were
37:54
reading
37:54
it
37:54
and
37:54
we
37:54
were
37:55
talking
37:55
about
37:55
it.
37:55
Just
37:55
what
37:56
you're
37:56
saying
37:56
now,
37:56
how
37:56
powerful
37:57
it
37:57
was.
37:57
Is
37:57
there
37:58
one
37:58
thing
37:58
that
37:58
you
37:59
take
37:59
away
37:59
from
37:59
this?
38:00
I
38:00
think
38:00
there
38:00
were
38:01
so
38:01
many.
38:01
It's
38:01
one
38:02
of
38:02
those.
38:02
Felt
38:02
like
38:03
this
38:03
is
38:03
the
38:04
distillation
38:04
of
38:05
wisdom,
38:05
of
38:05
a
38:06
lifetime
38:07
of
38:08
learning
38:09
from
38:10
the.
38:11
From
38:11
opening
38:12
to
38:12
some
38:13
of
38:13
the
38:13
most
38:13
powerful
38:14
experiences
38:14
that
38:15
human
38:15
beings
38:15
can
38:16
have,
38:17
and
38:17
that
38:18
the
38:18
wisdom
38:19
that
38:20
dying
38:21
and
38:21
being
38:21
with
38:22
the
38:22
dying
38:22
can
38:23
convey
38:23
and
38:23
its
38:24
transformational
38:25
impact,
38:25
potential
38:26
transformational
38:26
impact.
38:27
And
38:28
the
38:28
idea
38:28
that
38:29
so
38:29
much
38:30
of
38:30
what
38:30
we
38:30
have
38:30
assumed
38:31
in
38:31
our
38:31
culture
38:32
about
38:33
death
38:33
and
38:33
dying
38:34
is
38:34
wrong,
38:34
and
38:34
so
38:34
much
38:35
what,
38:35
as
38:35
you
38:36
said,
38:36
Frank,
38:37
the
38:38
tragedy
38:38
of
38:38
the
38:38
way
38:39
in
38:39
which
38:40
death
38:40
has
38:41
been
38:41
medicalized
38:42
and
38:43
reduced
38:44
to
38:44
a
38:44
medical
38:45
event
38:45
rather
38:45
than
38:46
a
38:46
profound
38:47
human
38:48
and
38:48
interpersonal
38:50
process
38:50
and
38:50
passage.
38:52
So
38:52
all
38:52
of
38:53
those.
38:54
And
38:54
maybe
38:55
I'll
38:55
frame
38:55
this
38:56
as
38:56
a
38:56
question.
38:56
I
38:56
was
38:56
also
38:58
painfully
38:59
reminded
39:00
of
39:00
how
39:00
inadequate
39:01
medical
39:02
training
39:02
can
39:02
be
39:02
for
39:03
dealing
39:03
with
39:03
the
39:03
dying
39:04
and
39:04
how
39:04
unbelievably
39:05
inadequate
39:06
it
39:06
was
39:06
in
39:07
my
39:07
own
39:07
time.
39:07
And
39:08
I've
39:09
had
39:09
a
39:09
very
39:09
fortunate
39:10
life,
39:10
blessed
39:10
in
39:11
so
39:11
many
39:11
ways.
39:11
I
39:11
don't
39:11
have
39:12
a
39:12
lot
39:12
of
39:12
regrets,
39:13
but
39:13
one
39:13
of
39:13
them
39:13
is
39:15
I'm
39:15
getting
39:15
teary.
39:17
I
39:17
deeply
39:18
regret
39:19
the
39:19
way
39:19
I,
39:20
you
39:21
know,
39:21
I
39:21
was
39:21
inadequate
39:22
to
39:22
people
39:22
who
39:22
died.
39:25
I
39:25
was
39:25
caring
39:26
for
39:26
them.
39:29
Yeah.
39:30
I.
39:32
Well,
39:32
first
39:32
of
39:32
all,
39:32
thank
39:33
you
39:33
for
39:33
all
39:33
your
39:33
kind
39:33
comments,
39:35
but
39:35
this
39:36
moment
39:36
that
39:36
you're
39:36
experiencing
39:37
now,
39:37
Roger,
39:38
I
39:38
can't
39:38
speak
39:38
to
39:39
what
39:39
it
39:39
is
39:39
for
39:39
you,
39:39
but
39:40
I
39:41
know
39:41
when
39:41
I
39:41
touch
39:41
this
39:42
kind
39:42
of
39:42
remorse
39:42
in
39:43
myself,
39:43
it's
39:43
really
39:44
important.
39:45
It
39:45
reminds
39:46
me.
39:47
I
39:47
like
39:47
it,
39:47
actually.
39:49
It's
39:49
the
39:49
most.
39:49
It's
39:50
so
39:50
human,
39:51
and
39:51
it
39:52
helps
39:52
me
39:52
to
39:53
see
39:53
that.
39:53
I
39:54
want
39:54
to
39:54
know
39:54
that
39:55
pain
39:55
because
39:55
I
39:56
don't
39:56
want
39:56
to
39:56
repeat
39:56
that
39:58
experience.
40:00
Yeah.
40:01
I
40:01
would
40:01
like
40:02
for
40:02
other
40:02
physicians
40:03
and
40:03
health
40:04
professionals
40:04
not
40:05
to
40:05
have
40:05
to
40:06
both
40:07
inflict
40:07
what
40:08
I
40:08
did
40:08
on
40:09
the
40:09
dying,
40:10
not
40:10
in
40:10
a
40:10
callous
40:11
way,
40:11
but
40:11
out
40:11
of.
40:12
Out
40:12
of
40:12
ignorance
40:12
and
40:13
fear.
40:14
And
40:14
I
40:15
would
40:15
like.
40:15
Yes.
40:16
And
40:16
I
40:16
would
40:16
like
40:16
to
40:16
learn
40:16
from
40:17
this
40:17
myself.
40:17
Yeah.
40:19
Oh.
40:20
You
40:20
know,
40:20
during
40:20
the
40:21
early
40:21
days
40:22
of
40:22
the
40:22
pandemic,
40:24
I
40:24
was
40:24
working
40:24
with
40:24
a
40:24
lot
40:24
of
40:25
emergency
40:25
room
40:26
teams
40:26
in
40:26
New
40:27
York
40:27
and
40:27
Houston,
40:27
places
40:28
where
40:28
Covid
40:29
was,
40:29
you
40:29
know,
40:30
out
40:30
of
40:30
control.
40:31
And
40:32
in
40:32
those
40:32
early
40:32
days,
40:33
of
40:33
course,
40:33
people
40:34
were
40:34
dying
40:34
quickly,
40:35
and
40:36
clinicians
40:36
were
40:37
in
40:37
dual
40:37
roles
40:38
where
40:38
they
40:38
were
40:38
not
40:38
only
40:39
providing
40:39
their
40:40
professional
40:41
expertise,
40:41
but
40:41
they
40:42
were
40:42
being
40:42
the
40:42
family
40:43
members,
40:43
because,
40:43
as
40:43
you
40:43
remember,
40:44
families
40:44
couldn't
40:45
come
40:45
to
40:45
visit
40:45
them.
40:46
And
40:47
they
40:47
were
40:47
a
40:47
wreck.
40:49
They
40:49
were
40:49
a
40:49
wreck
40:50
because
40:50
they
40:51
had
40:51
had
40:52
to
40:52
open
40:52
their
40:52
hearts
40:53
to
40:53
fill
40:53
the
40:54
role
40:54
of
40:54
the
40:54
family
40:54
member.
40:55
And
40:55
they
40:55
didn't
40:55
have
40:56
the
40:56
same
40:56
defenses
40:57
that
40:57
they
40:57
were
40:57
accustomed
40:58
to
40:58
from
40:58
their
40:58
professional
40:59
roles.
41:00
And
41:01
so
41:01
that
41:01
fourth
41:02
wall
41:02
it
41:02
was
41:02
broken,
41:03
you
41:03
know,
41:03
for
41:04
them.
41:05
I
41:05
sat
41:05
with
41:05
them
41:05
and
41:05
I
41:06
said,
41:06
you
41:07
know,
41:07
you
41:07
guys,
41:07
you're
41:07
not
41:08
normal.
41:09
And
41:09
they
41:09
left,
41:09
and
41:10
they
41:10
said,
41:11
it's
41:11
not
41:11
normal
41:12
to
41:12
be
41:12
with
41:12
people
41:13
who
41:13
are
41:13
dying
41:13
on
41:13
a
41:13
daily
41:14
basis.
41:15
And
41:16
so
41:16
the
41:16
normal
41:16
coping
41:17
mechanisms
41:18
that
41:18
you
41:18
have
41:18
are
41:18
not
41:19
sufficient
41:20
to
41:20
meet
41:21
the
41:21
conditions
41:21
that
41:21
you
41:21
find
41:22
yourself
41:22
in.
41:23
You
41:23
can't
41:23
go
41:23
home
41:23
and
41:24
just
41:24
watch
41:24
Netflix
41:24
and
41:25
have
41:25
a
41:25
glass
41:25
of
41:25
wine.
41:25
It
41:26
won't
41:26
be
41:26
sufficient
41:29
to
41:29
meet
41:29
that
41:29
kind
41:29
of
41:29
moral
41:30
suffering
41:31
they
41:31
were
41:31
experiencing.
41:33
And
41:33
so
41:33
I
41:33
think
41:34
I
41:34
have
41:34
great
41:35
empathy
41:35
for
41:35
physicians,
41:36
people
41:36
with
41:37
medical
41:37
training
41:37
like
41:38
yourself,
41:38
who
41:39
were
41:40
really
41:40
taught
41:41
a
41:41
particular
41:42
way
41:42
of
41:42
being
41:43
which
41:43
had
41:43
themselves
41:44
closing
41:45
their
41:45
hearts
41:45
and
41:45
cutting
41:46
themselves
41:46
off
41:47
from
41:49
their
41:49
humanity,
41:50
honestly,
41:52
their
41:52
humanity,
41:54
and
41:54
cutting
41:55
themselves
41:55
off
41:55
from
41:56
the
41:56
innate
41:56
wisdom
41:58
in
41:58
their
41:58
good
41:58
hearts.
41:59
And
42:00
so
42:00
much
42:00
of
42:01
the
42:01
work
42:01
was
42:01
to
42:01
help
42:01
people
42:02
remember,
42:03
to
42:03
trust
42:04
their
42:05
wise
42:06
hearts
42:07
in
42:07
the
42:07
course
42:07
of
42:08
the
42:08
work
42:08
that
42:09
they
42:09
found
42:09
themselves
42:10
doing.
42:11
So.
42:11
Oh,
42:12
it's
42:12
so
42:12
hard,
42:13
isn't
42:13
it,
42:13
Roger?
42:13
It's
42:14
so
42:14
hard.
42:17
One
42:17
of
42:17
my
42:18
jobs
42:18
when
42:18
I
42:19
was
42:19
in
42:19
graduate
42:19
school
42:20
was
42:21
going
42:21
around
42:22
to
42:22
physicians
42:22
and
42:22
having
42:23
them
42:23
fill
42:23
out
42:23
death
42:23
certificates
42:25
so
42:26
families
42:26
could
42:26
take
42:27
care.
42:27
But
42:27
it
42:27
was
42:27
called
42:28
anyway,
42:29
it
42:29
was
42:29
a
42:29
really
42:29
good
42:30
company.
42:30
They
42:30
didn't
42:30
charge
42:31
much
42:31
for
42:31
their
42:31
service,
42:31
and
42:32
there
42:32
was
42:32
a
42:32
lot
42:32
of
42:32
integrity
42:33
there.
42:33
Neptune
42:34
society.
42:34
You
42:35
know,
42:35
people
42:35
felt
42:36
I
42:36
was
42:36
doing
42:36
a
42:36
good
42:36
thing.
42:37
But
42:37
I
42:37
noticed
42:37
that
42:38
the
42:38
physicians
42:38
often
42:39
had
42:40
hard
42:40
times.
42:40
They
42:40
felt
42:41
like
42:41
they
42:41
were
42:41
failures,
42:41
you
42:42
know,
42:42
somehow
42:42
that
42:43
death
42:43
was
42:44
a
42:45
failure.
42:45
And
42:45
it
42:45
was
42:45
like,
42:46
no.
42:46
I
42:46
would
42:46
just
42:47
try
42:47
to
42:48
comfort
42:48
the
42:48
doctors
42:49
so
42:49
they
42:49
could
42:49
do
42:49
their
42:49
paperwork
42:50
and
42:51
help
42:51
this
42:51
family
42:51
move
42:52
along
42:52
with
42:52
the
42:52
process.
42:53
Now,
42:54
you
42:54
know,
42:54
there
42:54
was
42:54
a
42:54
dear
42:55
friend
42:55
of
42:55
mine,
42:55
common
42:56
friend
42:56
that
42:56
Roger
42:57
and
42:57
I
42:57
share,
42:57
Rachel
42:57
Naomi
42:58
Remond.
42:59
She
42:59
was
42:59
the
43:00
author
43:00
of
43:00
wonderful
43:01
books,
43:01
Kitchen
43:02
Table
43:02
Wisdom,
43:02
My
43:03
Grandfather's
43:04
Blessing.
43:04
She
43:04
worked
43:05
a
43:05
lot
43:05
with
43:05
clinicians.
43:07
And
43:07
one
43:07
day
43:07
she
43:07
came
43:08
to
43:08
me,
43:08
she
43:08
said,
43:08
do
43:08
you
43:08
know
43:09
so?
43:09
And
43:09
so
43:09
she's
43:10
a
43:10
doctor?
43:10
And
43:10
I
43:10
said,
43:10
yes.
43:11
You
43:11
would
43:11
think
43:11
she
43:11
was
43:11
in
43:12
one
43:12
of
43:12
my
43:12
workshops.
43:12
She
43:12
said,
43:13
what
43:13
did
43:13
you
43:13
say
43:14
to
43:14
her?
43:15
I
43:15
said,
43:15
I
43:15
don't
43:15
understand.
43:16
What
43:16
do
43:16
you
43:16
mean?
43:17
And
43:17
she
43:17
said,
43:18
now
43:18
she
43:18
goes
43:19
and
43:19
pronounces
43:19
people
43:20
dead
43:20
at
43:20
a
43:20
major
43:20
big
43:21
city
43:21
hospital,
43:22
and
43:22
you
43:23
should
43:23
understand
43:23
something
43:23
about
43:24
how
43:24
she
43:24
does
43:24
it.
43:26
And
43:26
I
43:26
remember
43:26
this
43:26
one
43:27
woman
43:27
coming
43:27
to
43:28
me
43:28
in
43:28
a
43:28
workshop
43:28
and
43:28
said,
43:29
would
43:29
you
43:29
give
43:29
me
43:29
some
43:29
Buddhist
43:30
rituals
43:30
that
43:30
I
43:31
could
43:31
do
43:31
around
43:31
the
43:31
time
43:32
when
43:32
I'm
43:32
pronouncing
43:32
people
43:33
dead?
43:34
And
43:35
I
43:35
said,
43:35
no.
43:36
And
43:37
she
43:37
said,
43:37
well,
43:37
why?
43:38
And
43:38
I
43:38
said,
43:38
because
43:39
you
43:39
have
43:39
to
43:39
find
43:40
what
43:40
your
43:40
own
43:40
ritual
43:40
is.
43:41
You're
43:41
not
43:41
Buddhist.
43:42
And
43:42
if
43:42
you
43:42
just
43:42
take
43:42
on
43:43
One
43:43
of
43:43
those
43:43
things,
43:43
it'll
43:43
just
43:44
be
43:45
something
43:45
else
43:45
you
43:45
do
43:45
rather
43:45
mechanically.
43:47
So
43:47
this
43:47
young
43:48
woman,
43:48
whose,
43:49
of
43:49
course,
43:49
father
43:50
and
43:50
grandfather
43:50
had
43:50
been
43:51
physicians,
43:51
a
43:51
common
43:52
experience,
43:53
went
43:53
out
43:53
and
43:53
got
43:54
her
43:54
grandfather's
43:55
medical
43:55
bag
43:56
that
43:56
he
43:56
used
43:56
to
43:56
go
43:56
house
43:57
to
43:57
house
43:57
with.
43:58
Yeah.
43:59
And
43:59
she
43:59
got
43:59
her
43:59
father's
44:00
stethoscope
44:01
that
44:01
he
44:01
had
44:01
left
44:01
her.
44:02
And
44:02
she
44:02
went
44:02
and
44:03
got
44:03
this
44:04
rose
44:05
oil
44:05
that
44:05
her
44:05
grandma
44:06
used
44:06
to
44:06
make,
44:07
and
44:07
she
44:07
kept
44:07
them
44:07
all
44:07
in
44:08
this
44:08
bag
44:08
and
44:08
in
44:08
her
44:09
locker
44:09
at
44:09
the
44:09
hospital.
44:11
When
44:11
it
44:11
was
44:11
her
44:11
job
44:11
in
44:12
this
44:12
big
44:12
city
44:12
hospital
44:13
to
44:13
go
44:13
and
44:13
pronounce
44:13
someone
44:14
dead,
44:14
she
44:14
would
44:14
go
44:14
and
44:15
get
44:15
the
44:15
bag
44:15
and
44:16
she'd
44:16
take
44:16
out
44:16
her
44:17
grandfather's,
44:18
you
44:18
know,
44:18
leather
44:19
valise
44:20
and
44:20
pull
44:21
out
44:21
of
44:21
it
44:21
her
44:22
father's
44:22
stethoscope
44:23
and
44:23
some
44:23
of
44:23
the
44:24
little
44:24
rose
44:24
water
44:24
that
44:25
Grandma
44:25
used
44:25
to
44:25
make.
44:26
And
44:26
she
44:26
would
44:27
apply
44:27
this
44:27
rose
44:28
water
44:28
and
44:29
say
44:30
to
44:30
the
44:30
person,
44:31
I
44:31
want
44:31
to
44:31
let
44:31
you
44:31
know
44:32
that
44:32
you've
44:32
died
44:32
now.
44:33
It's
44:33
okay.
44:34
I
44:34
will
44:34
be
44:34
here
44:35
with
44:35
you.
44:36
And
44:36
she
44:36
took
44:37
out
44:37
her
44:37
father's
44:37
stethoscope,
44:38
listened
44:38
for
44:38
a
44:39
heartbeat,
44:39
et
44:39
cetera.
44:40
And
44:40
this
44:40
is
44:40
how
44:41
she
44:41
began
44:41
to
44:41
pronounce
44:42
people
44:42
dead.
44:43
She
44:44
found
44:44
her
44:44
own
44:44
ritual
44:45
with
44:45
it.
44:46
And
44:46
so
44:46
I
44:46
think
44:46
within
44:47
medicine,
44:47
there
44:47
are
44:47
people
44:48
who
44:48
are
44:48
doing
44:48
these
44:48
kinds
44:48
of
44:49
things
44:49
all
44:49
the
44:49
time.
44:49
It's
44:50
just
44:50
that
44:50
we're
44:50
not
44:51
necessarily
44:51
seeing
44:52
that.
44:53
There
44:54
was
44:54
a
44:54
fellow,
44:54
he
44:55
was
44:55
a
44:55
nurse's
44:56
aide,
44:56
basically,
44:57
and
44:57
his
44:58
job
44:58
was
44:58
to
44:59
go
44:59
into
45:00
a
45:00
surgical
45:00
room,
45:01
oftentimes,
45:02
or
45:02
even
45:03
a
45:03
room
45:03
in
45:03
the
45:03
er,
45:04
and
45:04
clean
45:04
up
45:04
after
45:05
the
45:05
mess
45:05
when
45:05
someone
45:05
had
45:06
died.
45:07
And
45:07
oftentimes,
45:08
what
45:08
would
45:08
happen
45:08
is
45:08
the
45:09
person
45:09
would
45:09
still
45:09
be
45:10
there.
45:10
He
45:10
would
45:11
go
45:11
into
45:11
this
45:11
room,
45:11
and
45:12
the
45:12
room
45:12
was
45:12
chaotic,
45:13
and
45:13
there
45:13
were
45:13
bloody
45:14
rags
45:14
on
45:14
the
45:14
floor
45:15
and
45:15
all
45:15
these
45:15
kinds
45:15
of
45:15
things.
45:16
But
45:16
the
45:16
first
45:16
thing
45:16
he
45:16
would
45:17
do
45:17
is
45:17
he'd
45:17
go
45:17
over
45:17
to
45:18
the
45:18
person
45:18
who
45:18
died,
45:19
and
45:19
he'd
45:19
lean
45:19
over
45:19
and
45:20
he'd
45:20
say
45:20
to
45:20
them,
45:21
I
45:21
want
45:21
you
45:22
to
45:22
know
45:22
that
45:22
you've
45:22
died,
45:24
and
45:24
I'm
45:24
here,
45:25
and
45:25
I
45:25
will
45:26
clean
45:26
up
45:27
this
45:27
mess
45:27
in
45:28
the
45:28
room
45:28
and
45:28
the
45:28
chaos
45:29
that's
45:29
here
45:30
and
45:30
wash
45:30
away
45:31
all
45:31
dust
45:31
and
45:32
confusion.
45:32
That
45:33
was
45:33
his
45:33
line.
45:33
Wash
45:34
away
45:34
all
45:34
dust.
45:37
And
45:37
of
45:37
course,
45:37
the
45:37
other
45:38
nurses
45:38
would
45:38
peek
45:38
their
45:39
heads
45:39
in
45:39
the
45:39
door
45:39
and
45:39
say,
45:40
hurry
45:40
up.
45:40
We
45:41
need
45:41
the
45:41
room.
45:41
We
45:41
need
45:41
the
45:42
room.
45:42
But
45:43
the
45:43
supervisor
45:44
on
45:44
this
45:44
unit
45:44
understood
45:45
what
45:45
this
45:45
young
45:46
man
45:46
was
45:46
doing.
45:47
And
45:47
so
45:47
she
45:48
would
45:48
lead,
45:48
she'd
45:48
come
45:48
and
45:49
she
45:49
said,
45:49
take
45:49
your
45:49
time.
45:49
It's
45:50
okay.
45:50
Take
45:50
your
45:50
time.
45:51
Yeah.
45:52
And
45:52
I
45:52
think
45:53
things
45:53
like
45:53
this
45:53
are
45:53
happening
45:54
in
45:54
medical
45:54
centers
45:55
all
45:55
over
45:55
the
45:55
world.
45:56
And
45:57
I
45:58
want
45:58
to
45:58
raise
45:59
a
45:59
glass,
45:59
so
46:00
to
46:00
speak,
46:00
to
46:00
the
46:00
people
46:01
who
46:01
are
46:01
doing
46:01
these
46:01
kinds
46:02
of
46:02
things
46:02
in
46:03
the
46:03
midst
46:03
of
46:03
what
46:04
are
46:04
often
46:04
very
46:04
toxic,
46:05
very
46:05
difficult
46:06
environments.
46:07
I'm
46:07
very
46:07
grateful
46:08
to
46:08
the
46:08
people
46:09
who
46:09
are
46:09
working
46:09
as
46:09
healthcare
46:10
clinicians
46:10
these
46:11
days
46:11
and
46:11
that
46:11
they
46:12
can.
46:12
Some
46:13
of
46:13
them
46:13
are
46:13
secretly
46:14
doing
46:14
these
46:14
kinds
46:14
of
46:15
things
46:15
that
46:15
I'm
46:15
really
46:16
grateful
46:16
for.
46:18
One
46:18
last
46:18
thing
46:18
about
46:18
this,
46:19
I
46:19
was
46:19
giving
46:19
a
46:19
talk,
46:20
grand
46:20
rounds
46:20
at
46:20
some
46:21
big
46:21
hospital
46:21
in
46:21
the
46:22
Midwest.
46:22
I
46:22
forget
46:22
where
46:22
it
46:23
was.
46:23
And
46:23
I.
46:24
So
46:24
we
46:24
were
46:24
walking
46:24
as
46:25
the
46:25
head
46:25
of
46:25
nursing
46:25
was
46:25
taking
46:26
me
46:26
to
46:26
the
46:26
theater
46:27
where
46:27
I
46:27
was
46:27
going
46:27
to
46:27
do
46:27
this
46:28
talk.
46:28
I
46:28
heard
46:29
Brahms
46:29
lullaby
46:30
come
46:30
over
46:30
the
46:30
back
46:31
of
46:31
the
46:31
speaker
46:31
system.
46:32
And
46:33
I
46:33
said,
46:33
oh,
46:33
what's
46:33
that?
46:34
And
46:35
she
46:35
said,
46:35
oh,
46:35
every
46:35
time
46:35
a
46:36
baby's
46:36
born
46:36
in
46:36
her
46:36
hospital,
46:37
we
46:37
play
46:37
Brahms
46:38
lullaby.
46:39
And
46:39
I
46:39
said,
46:40
you
46:40
mean
46:40
just
46:40
here
46:40
in
46:40
the
46:40
hallway?
46:41
She
46:41
said,
46:41
no,
46:41
no,
46:41
it
46:42
goes
46:42
into
46:42
every
46:42
room.
46:43
I
46:43
said,
46:43
you
46:43
mean
46:43
the
46:43
operating
46:44
theater
46:44
goes
46:45
in
46:45
there?
46:45
Yes.
46:46
It
46:46
goes
46:46
into
46:46
the
46:46
morgue?
46:47
Yes.
46:47
It
46:48
goes
46:48
into
46:48
all
46:48
the
46:48
offices
46:49
of
46:49
the
46:49
administrator?
46:50
Yes.
46:52
I
46:53
thought,
46:53
what
46:53
a
46:53
beautiful
46:54
ritual
46:54
that
46:55
this
46:55
happens.
46:56
One
46:56
day
46:57
we
46:57
will
46:57
have
46:57
such
46:57
rituals
46:58
for
46:58
when
46:58
people
46:58
die
46:59
as
46:59
well.
47:00
Stay
47:01
tuned
47:01
for
47:01
part
47:01
two
47:02
of
47:02
our
47:02
conversation
47:03
where
47:03
we
47:03
continue
47:04
to
47:04
explore
47:05
death
47:05
and
47:05
to
47:05
help
47:06
us
47:06
move
47:06
into
47:06
the
47:06
experience
47:07
with
47:07
more
47:08
wisdom
47:08
and
47:08
peace.
47:09
Thank
47:09
you
47:09
very
47:10
much
47:10
for
47:10
being
47:11
a
47:11
part
47:11
of.
47:11
Of
47:11
this
47:11
conversation.
47:12
We
47:12
hope
47:13
that
47:13
you
47:13
were
47:13
moved
47:14
as
47:14
we
47:14
are
47:14
moved,
47:15
being
47:15
part
47:15
of
47:15
it
47:16
ourselves.
47:16
We'd
47:17
also
47:17
like
47:17
to
47:17
say
47:18
that
47:18
this
47:18
is
47:18
being
47:19
funded
47:19
by
47:19
Roger
47:20
and
47:20
myself.
47:20
It
47:20
comes
47:20
out
47:21
of
47:21
our
47:21
pockets.
47:21
So
47:22
if
47:22
you
47:22
would
47:22
like
47:22
to
47:22
help
47:23
us
47:23
to
47:24
mainly
47:24
to
47:24
get
47:24
this
47:25
podcast
47:25
out
47:25
to
47:26
more
47:26
people
47:26
because
47:26
the
47:27
bigger
47:27
audience
47:27
have,
47:27
which
47:28
is
47:28
steadily
47:28
growing.
47:28
But
47:29
the
47:29
more
47:29
people
47:29
we
47:30
can
47:30
reach
47:30
and
47:30
the
47:30
more
47:30
marketing
47:31
we
47:31
can
47:31
do,
47:31
the
47:32
more
47:32
positive
47:32
effect
47:33
we
47:33
can
47:33
have
47:33
on
47:33
the
47:34
world.
47:34
So
47:34
we've
47:35
done
47:35
a
47:35
couple
47:35
of
47:35
ways,
47:35
but
47:36
we'd
47:36
like
47:36
you
47:36
to
47:36
buy
47:37
us
47:37
a
47:37
cup
47:37
of
47:37
coffee.
47:38
Very
47:38
simple.
47:38
And
47:39
I
47:39
do
47:39
that
47:39
with
47:39
podcasts
47:40
that
47:40
I
47:41
support
47:41
and
47:42
I
47:42
find
47:42
it's
47:42
very
47:43
satisfying.
47:43
So
47:44
thank
47:44
you
47:44
for
47:44
your
47:44
help,
47:45
thank
47:45
you
47:45
for
47:45
your
47:45
presence
47:46
and
47:46
thank
47:46
you
47:46
for
47:47
all
47:47
you
47:47
are
47:47
and
47:48
all
47:48
you
47:48
do.
47:48
We
47:48
love
47:49
you.
48:03
Sam.