Latest / Kids Media Club Podcast / Chickenhare and Original Animation IP: How Belgium's nWave Is Out-Crafting Hollywood on a Fraction of the Budget — with Matthieu Zeller

Transcript

Chickenhare and Original Animation IP: How Belgium's nWave Is Out-Crafting Hollywood on a Fraction of the Budget — with Matthieu Zeller · Kids Media Club Podcast

• 0:05
  Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Kids Media Club podcast.
• 0:10
  I'm Andy Williams.
• 0:11
  And I'm Jo Redfern.
• 0:12
  And I can see Emily is excited.
• 0:14
  Emily, who do we have joining us today?
• 0:16
  I'm very excited because one of my, like, pet, one of my little pet pieces of content in the world is Chicken Hair and the Hunter of Darkness, the movie.
• 0:27
  And I have gone.
• 0:28
  Actually, I haven't raised it on the podcast in a while because it's from a few years ago.
• 0:33
  But I'm so pleased to have reason to raise it again because Matthew Zeller from N Wave, the director of Chicken Hare, has joined us.
• 0:41
  Hello, nice to meet you all.
• 0:43
  Great to have you.
• 0:44
  Matthew, would you mind introducing yourself for our audience, please?
• 0:48
  So I'm Matthieu Zeller.
• 0:49
  So I'm the president and CEO of NY Studios based in Belgium.
• 0:54
  And so, yeah, we have produced Chicken Hair and the Hamster of Darkness, but also Chicken Hair and the Secret of the Groundhog, that is the sequel of it.
• 1:02
  And yeah, I've been a writer also on this one, on this new one.
• 1:07
  So, yeah, very happy.
• 1:09
  You like it?
• 1:12
  Yes.
• 1:12
  Chicken Hare and the Secret of the Groundhog is the newest installment of the Chicken Hare franchise that's hitting cinemas this month.
• 1:21
  Chicken Hair and Hamster of Darkness, like, I'm just happy to tee it up for you is like, it's a great movie.
• 1:27
  It released in cinemas, certain markets, it hit Netflix.
• 1:31
  Right.
• 1:32
  So my, you know, that's where a lot of my obsession comes from because the streaming numbers it did was pretty, was pretty strong.
• 1:40
  And it's a great movie.
• 1:42
  It's kind of, I suppose, a little bit based maybe around the Indiana and Temple of Doom.
• 1:48
  You know, Chicken Heir is a slightly unlikely hero who finds himself in doing these great adventurous quests and learns a lot about himself in the meantime.
• 1:59
  And yeah, a really, really charming movie.
• 2:02
  And great to see the sequels coming out now.
• 2:05
  What do you think, Matthew?
• 2:05
  Is that a good pitch for it or how would you pitch it?
• 2:08
  Yeah, well, what is very interesting about Chicken Heir and the abyssal Darkness and I think about the hero and the world is that it's a very original story.
• 2:17
  So it has never been seen.
• 2:19
  A chicken and hare mix hybrid animal.
• 2:24
  And I think the whole movie is all about creating a world that is very imaginary and never seen before.
• 2:31
  And in a world where you have the, you know, the sequel.
• 2:36
  Sequel.
• 2:37
  Sequel of the sequel of the, you know, those big franchises that we all love and we all love going to theaters to see those new Toy Story 5 or those kind of things.
• 2:49
  We love it, but it's good from time to time.
• 2:52
  And that's what we are trying to do at N Wave, to bring new heroes and new stories and your world and new, original stories to life.
• 3:03
  And when it works, we do like the others, we do sequels, but, you know, it's, I think, Chicken Ear.
• 3:10
  It's all about that.
• 3:11
  It's an adventure movie, an adventure comedy, but at the very heart of it is a strong character with a strong drawing and something about the difference.
• 3:22
  And there is a line in Chicken Air and the Hamster of Darkness.
• 3:26
  That is the line of the whole franchise.
• 3:29
  Chigoneh's father is saying to his son, his adopted son, okay, well, what makes you.
• 3:37
  What.
• 3:38
  What is special with you?
• 3:39
  What.
• 3:40
  What is what makes you unique to what makes you special?
• 3:42
  And.
• 3:43
  And you are unique.
• 3:44
  You are special.
• 3:45
  And.
• 3:45
  And the kid is answering, I don't want to be special.
• 3:47
  I just want to be normal.
• 3:49
  That.
• 3:49
  And that's.
• 3:50
  That's all about that movie.
• 3:51
  It's all about that.
• 3:52
  And I think it.
• 3:53
  It resonates with every.
• 3:55
  Every kid, even every adult, every man or woman in the world.
• 4:00
  It's, you know, I just want to be noble.
• 4:04
  I just want to be who I am and not to be a freak or someone different.
• 4:11
  What were the origins of Chicken Hair?
• 4:13
  I'm super interested, and you've very eloquently said there.
• 4:16
  What is the very DNA of it?
• 4:19
  Tell us how it came about originally.
• 4:21
  Originally, this is a graphic novel published by Dark Horse Comics.
• 4:28
  And to be honest, the graphic novel has not been a big success.
• 4:35
  I think it has kind of a cult, you know, following.
• 4:41
  But it's an original graphic novel, I think.
• 4:47
  So.
• 4:47
  Chris Grine is the author of the original graphic novel.
• 4:52
  And in this original graphic novel, you have the character of Chicken Hare, you have the character of Meg and the character of the Turtle.
• 5:04
  Well, I have to actually.
• 5:05
  Abe.
• 5:06
  Abe, sorry, I have the French name after the Turtle.
• 5:10
  My mind.
• 5:11
  Sorry.
• 5:12
  And Abe.
• 5:12
  So the three characters are there.
• 5:15
  The idea of the world is there, but it's not at all the story of the Hamster of Darkness.
• 5:20
  So that's the origin.
• 5:22
  And at that time, I think, well, maybe 12 years ago, Sony Pictures Animation bought the rights for an adaptation, and they hired Dave Khaled, the writer, to work on an adaptation.
• 5:37
  And as it happens, in a lot of big studios, well, this is development that has never been made, but I've been aware about this project.
• 5:49
  I loved the.
• 5:50
  The idea.
• 5:50
  I loved this adventure comedy universe.
• 5:54
  I love the uniqueness of the Character above all.
• 5:59
  And so I just went to Sony Pictures Animation Studios and tell them, okay, well you have something that I'm interested in.
• 6:08
  It sounds like you won't do anything with it.
• 6:10
  Would you be nice enough and kind enough to give it to me so that we can do a movie?
• 6:15
  And, and it happened as, you know,.
• 6:20
  It's like, yeah, that's really, that's really interesting.
• 6:24
  What, what were the elements that you really loved about it?
• 6:27
  Because I think one of the things that really strikes me is that it feels like it's designed in a way that it can be a movie franchise.
• 6:34
  It doesn't feel like a one, one movie and you're done.
• 6:37
  It feels like it's very much built to be, to have sequels and to be kind of continuing series.
• 6:43
  Is that one of the elements that struck you?
• 6:45
  Not really.
• 6:46
  Honestly.
• 6:48
  The main element was the, the fact that the character was very strong, very original, very unique and that, that we were, that I thought that our studio was the perfect one to bring it to life.
• 7:03
  This is also something that, that we love to do.
• 7:08
  Honestly, we won't, we're not fighting with the US American studio with huge special effects, huge battles, you know, thousands of characters.
• 7:20
  And that's not, that's not our DNA, that's not, we don't have the budget to do that.
• 7:24
  But when it comes to real character driven stories, real character, bringing emotion, telling true stories, humor, comedy, that's something that we know how to do.
• 7:39
  And I think we are even better than some of the studios to bring emotion to the screen and to bring real values to the screen.
• 7:48
  And this is also something very important for us and for me is that I love the stories where you are not resolving and solving conflicts by violence or by, by a battle or by a fight.
• 8:04
  And there are so many kids movies, family movies that are built around a fight, battle, violence.
• 8:15
  Honestly, I don't stand it anymore.
• 8:17
  So you can have fights, you can have battles in movies, but at the end of the day we always love stories where there is something positive about the resolution of conflicts.
• 8:31
  And in Chicken Air, the two movies, this is always about conversation, people expressing themselves, finding solutions.
• 8:46
  We're not in a world where everybody agrees.
• 8:50
  Well, we have fight, we can disagree, but we are solving issues by the conversation, by love, by friendship, by, you know, those kind of values that are maybe a little bit old fashioned, but.
• 9:03
  Oh, I'm laughing, laughing it up here, I swear to God, like it is because that's the one thing I loved about it.
• 9:08
  It's just like it was A good old fashioned kids movie.
• 9:10
  Do you know what I mean?
• 9:11
  And I mean in the best possible way.
• 9:13
  Like, it's the character.
• 9:15
  So Chicken Hare is not that delighted to be a chicken hare because he's at the start of the first movie, he's the only chicken heir that exists.
• 9:21
  And he thinks he's freak or whatever, which is not a nice place to be feeling like.
• 9:25
  And he feels like he needs to prove himself because his dad is this big adventurer and he wants to show that he can do the same thing.
• 9:32
  But he basically, he deals with the shortcomings of being both a chicken and a hare, but then actually realizes that if he leans into being them, that's when he's at his strongest and he's able to achieve the most.
• 9:45
  But it is, you know, a good old fashioned kids movie, a story, start to finish.
• 9:50
  You.
• 9:50
  Yes, definitely with franchise opportunity at, at the, at the center.
• 9:53
  Andy.
• 9:53
  I agree, but you know, every single movie is the whole story.
• 9:56
  Do you know what I mean?
• 9:56
  It's not like you have to see the next one.
• 9:58
  Every single movie is the whole story and the mythology of it, right?
• 10:02
  Like the, you know, the different.
• 10:03
  That's what I love actually.
• 10:04
  And it was funny.
• 10:06
  I watched three movies in the last two weeks.
• 10:08
  I haven't seen Minions yet, but I saw Toy Story 5.
• 10:10
  I watched Chicken Hair and Secret of the Groundhog.
• 10:14
  I actually watched Swapped, which is another maybe on Netflix.
• 10:16
  And you know, it's just movies that just have this mythology and friendship at the center.
• 10:21
  You know, I think it's so cool.
• 10:23
  And Chicken Hair is a great example of that.
• 10:25
  So tell us a little bit more about N Wave and what you guys are doing, particularly because this is a kind of a specialty for you.
• 10:31
  Yeah, well, N Wave has been created 31 years ago, so it's an old company.
• 10:39
  And at the very beginning of the company was the 3D, 4D, IMAX format, large screens, you know, those kind of ride attractions for fairs and attraction parks.
• 10:53
  And that's something that we are still doing.
• 10:55
  So we are still doing and distributing short movies, short formats for attraction parks.
• 11:02
  But the very origin of the company is about the knowledge of 3D, stereoscopic 3D and you know, CGI animation in stereoscopic 3D.
• 11:13
  Strangely enough.
• 11:14
  Well, not strangely enough.
• 11:16
  The story is quite similar to Blue Sky Studios.
• 11:21
  Blue sky was the same and they did Ice Age as first feature film and then, well, they disappeared, unfortunately.
• 11:31
  But that was the same story, basically.
• 11:34
  That was the same story.
• 11:35
  And the founders of the company, one day they decided to create their first 3D movie and it was one of the very first stereoscopic 3D movie and fully stereoscopic 3D movie.
• 11:48
  It was called Fly Me to the Moon and it was 17 years ago.
• 11:52
  So a while ago.
• 11:54
  And then they did Sammy and then Sammy 2, the House of Magic, Robinson Crusoe, a lot of movies and chicken hair and the squirt of the groundhog is or 12 feature film.
• 12:08
  So it has always been the tradition at N Wave to be at the very, very edge and to be, you know, we try to be from a technological point of view.
• 12:20
  We are always trying to be at the state of the art of the quantity and the knowledge of CGI animation.
• 12:29
  And our artists are coming from everywhere in the world, mainly Europe, but we have 18 nationalities in the studio and we have very good talents and they are using the tools, using the softwares to at a very high
• 12:47
  level.
• 12:47
  And sometimes we have calls from Pixar, from Disney, from Illumination, they think oh, how, how do you, you know the, your Whitewater effects is really good.
• 12:58
  You dealt with that software or those kind of things.
• 13:01
  So you know we really want to be technologically very advanced.
• 13:07
  That's the first.
• 13:08
  But we don't have 100 million budget to do our movies, that's for sure.
• 13:13
  We are independent and so our strategy is really clear when the big studios are doing big franchises and, and spending a lot of money on marketing.
• 13:27
  We are trying to bring to the market original IPs, original ideas, original characters and to tell stories.
• 13:37
  I like the fact that you are telling old fashioned family movies.
• 13:43
  Yeah, that's true.
• 13:44
  We are bringing real stories, emotional stories.
• 13:50
  You know, when, when you love the old Disney movies, it's all about, you love the characters, you are rooting for them, you are, you know, it's, you can, you can tell a lot of examples but it's not about
• 14:03
  huge fights with big monsters.
• 14:05
  It's about, you know, rooting for very strong characters.
• 14:10
  So that's always our goal.
• 14:12
  And, and the very first, very sad thing about the way we are choosing movies is do we love the characters?
• 14:22
  Do we love the main characters?
• 14:25
  Are we able to create a character that a family will like, that a family will love and that a family will like to watch together?
• 14:41
  That's very important for us.
• 14:44
  If a five year old, seven year old, nine year old parents, grandparents together, they can enjoy a movie together, have fun together, be entertained together and then after the movie talk about it, discuss about it, discuss about the
• 15:00
  values, discuss about the feelings and the sentiments that has been,.
• 15:12
  Hmm, has, has been able to Think in terms of 3D and not just in terms of animation, but those physical spaces that you spoke about.
• 15:21
  Do you think that has helped the ability to create stories that do better connect with all those generations?
• 15:26
  Well, yeah, yes, obviously, yes, I think it's easier.
• 15:31
  Well, our ability to all know how in 3D allows us to have an animation.
• 15:40
  And when I'm talking about animation, I'm really talking about the work of the animators.
• 15:45
  The way we animate our characters or our main characters.
• 15:48
  They have 600, 700 control points.
• 15:53
  So you can have facial expressions.
• 15:56
  You can have something that is very unique, something that AI could.
• 16:01
  Can't create, basically something that has, that has, that creates an emotion that is not, that is not human.
• 16:10
  You know, it's something.
• 16:11
  Every single character is something that you have never seen before.
• 16:15
  So.
• 16:16
  So chicken hair has ears that also become wings and they have individual feathers on, on the wings.
• 16:21
  Right.
• 16:21
  Like it's, it's so fun.
• 16:23
  Yeah, exactly.
• 16:23
  So.
• 16:25
  So I think animation is also a medium.
• 16:29
  Thanks to that medium and thanks to those techniques, you can create characters that are not.
• 16:35
  That are from the imagination of the artists.
• 16:40
  And bringing something new to the audience is really what we are always aiming for.
• 16:48
  Is that risky though?
• 16:50
  Is that risky at the moment, Matthew?
• 16:51
  Because it is risky.
• 16:52
  Yeah.
• 16:53
  Yeah, it's very risky.
• 16:54
  Obviously when you are discussing with the finances, they are all telling you, okay, well, we bet on IPs.
• 17:02
  No, they are not betting at all.
• 17:05
  They are just risk averse and they are looking for IPs and they prefer to invest a lot of money on a bad script based on an old IP that nobody knows anymore, rather than a fresh new good original
• 17:20
  stories.
• 17:20
  That's the reality of the market.
• 17:23
  Yeah, that's true.
• 17:24
  So my job, and I love to tell that my job is not.
• 17:29
  I'm not a producer.
• 17:33
  Well, I am a producer, but my job is to sell new stories and to convince people to take the risk, to finance and to bet on original stories, original IP that could become future big IPs hopefully.
• 17:58
  Because any IP that exists has been created and is coming from somewhere in a way from an artist, from talent.
• 18:06
  And so, yeah, that's not easy.
• 18:09
  That's risky.
• 18:10
  Yeah.
• 18:11
  And how did you kind of navigate that?
• 18:14
  Because compared to the US the budget for, for your movie is kind of a.
• 18:21
  It's a fraction of what the US studios have.
• 18:24
  But within the context of European animation production, you went for quite an ambitious budget and production, really.
• 18:31
  So how did you kind of bring on the partners and kind of.
• 18:36
  And build that funding to get well,.
• 18:38
  We are taking risks.
• 18:41
  So we have decided to be fully integrated.
• 18:43
  So we do the financing, we'll develop the project.
• 18:47
  We develop, we develop everything under the same roof.
• 18:51
  We develop everything by ourselves.
• 18:53
  We do take the risk of the financing.
• 18:56
  We do finance and we do distribute well, we do sell our project.
• 19:00
  So we don't have any sales agent.
• 19:02
  We are our own sales agent.
• 19:05
  And because of the consistency of the quality of our movies, because we are, because they trust our ability to craft those, these good movies at a reasonable price point but a very high standard of quality, so they trust
• 19:23
  us.
• 19:24
  And so in many territories I have output deals with distributors that are, that are just buying our movies based on trust we've built over the years.
• 19:34
  So, so yeah, so basically I'm building my financing through our loyal distributors and loyal partners, mainly in Europe and then the US and the rest of the world is a cherry on the cake, basically.
• 19:52
  So I take my risk as a producer based on the fact that I can cover the, the making of the movie by the financing I have in Europe and I can potentially pay myself and then earn a little
• 20:13
  bit of money if the movie has a worldwide success.
• 20:21
  And do you think that it's, I mean, what do distributors want now that they perhaps didn't want when the first chicken hair came out?
• 20:32
  Have you noticed any changes?
• 20:33
  Have you evolved your strategy for chicken.
• 20:35
  Hair as a.
• 20:35
  Yeah, well, I think, I think distributors.
• 20:39
  Well, you have more and more big sequels and big IPs that are taking.
• 20:44
  While Minions will do, I don't know how much, but Toy Story, Minions, Super Mario, well, you name it.
• 20:52
  You know, all the big IP and even Disney is an ip.
• 20:57
  So the Christmas Disney movie is an IP in itself.
• 21:01
  It's a Christmas Disney movie.
• 21:04
  So I think there is room and I think a lot of distributors are looking for new ideas, original ideas.
• 21:10
  And they know, well, if I take the example of France Minion, Super Mario, Toy Story, they will do 4 million, 5 million admissions, something like that, you know, but still at 1 million admission you do a good business
• 21:24
  and it's a lot of people coming to see the movie.
• 21:27
  So that's the potential of movies in France, for example.
• 21:30
  There is room for that a lot.
• 21:32
  But you have room for that with original ideas, original IPs really.
• 21:38
  And then you also can see that you have a lot of projects that are targeting more.
• 21:48
  You know, the US studio, they are obsessed by the four quadrant strategy.
• 21:54
  They want to get the teenagers, you know, so they are doing those kind of.
• 21:59
  They all want a new K pop Demonetist at the time.
• 22:02
  So you can see movies with, with monsters, with fights, with magics, with those kind of things that can be a little bit scary for young kids.
• 22:15
  And when you are talking to the theater owners, well, they want to have families in the theater.
• 22:23
  And if a grandmother or a father fears that the youngest, the five year old, the six year old will be scared by a movie, they will go for our movies because we try to be very reassuring.
• 22:39
  It doesn't mean that it's not because you don't have monsters and you don't have big battles and big fights that you are just a silly movie.
• 22:51
  No, you can do very sophisticated stories and very sophisticated.
• 22:55
  Yeah, there's still high stakes, there's still high stakes in both of the movies.
• 22:59
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 23:01
  Chicken Air is a real movie.
• 23:03
  There are a lot of stakes, stakes without violence and big violence and big fights.
• 23:10
  So the strategy is really that I want a family.
• 23:13
  I want a grandfather or a grandmother during the holidays.
• 23:17
  Okay, well, I will go to the movie theater with my grandson and my granddaughter, which movie I like and I want them to be mine because they know they will find good values, good stories, you know, entertainment and
• 23:36
  something that is, that is suitable for the whole family.
• 23:39
  I think increasingly as well.
• 23:41
  And my kids are a little bit older.
• 23:43
  But as Emily speaks, I think about how it was when my kids were younger.
• 23:48
  This is the kind of movie that I would not have minded watching over and over.
• 23:52
  And very often the needs of the parent and their tolerance for watching the same thing over and over maybe aren't really thought about too well.
• 24:00
  And even, you know, the Minions after a while might get a little bit grating.
• 24:04
  But actually this movie where it's got such hearts, the pacing I thought was great.
• 24:11
  It was kind of just a good rip roaring adventure.
• 24:14
  I love the parallel with Within Indiana Jones because that's a movie that I could still watch to this day.
• 24:21
  And so, and that really seems to be that niche that you found, which is, yeah, a great point and enjoying I think a bit of a resurgence.
• 24:29
  Just something that the whole family can watch and that a parent can watch over and over without it beginning to.
• 24:34
  We're doing movies, we are doing cinema.
• 24:36
  It's, you know, when you are at Annecy, everybody's saying the same thing.
• 24:40
  But it needs to be said.
• 24:44
  Animation is just technique.
• 24:46
  We are doing movies, we are telling stories in a format that is 80 minute format, 85 minute format and that's cinema.
• 24:56
  So we need to have strong stories, we need to have strong arcs.
• 25:00
  Strong stakes.
• 25:01
  We need to bring cinematography to the screen.
• 25:06
  We are just doing feature films.
• 25:08
  We are not doing TV series.
• 25:11
  I would be, I would be very.
• 25:14
  I don't know how to craft a TV series.
• 25:16
  I don't know.
• 25:17
  That's a different format.
• 25:18
  That's a different thing.
• 25:19
  It's very different.
• 25:21
  So I think we are, we try to be as good as possible in one niche animated feature films on that target.
• 25:31
  And we try to be, you know, to be better at every movie and to progress for every movie.
• 25:40
  But it's cinema.
• 25:42
  It's all about that, a common experience in a theater.
• 25:47
  And then how do you think about this?
• 25:50
  Sorry, Andy.
• 25:51
  How does the streaming come into that equation then as well?
• 25:54
  Because obviously this is one of the things that caught my eye about chicken here.
• 25:57
  I saw the rewatch value.
• 25:59
  That's the thing, what streaming does, right?
• 26:01
  Streaming is the datification of the DVD player.
• 26:04
  Before, you know, if you sold the DVD now you can tell how many times the DVD is being watched.
• 26:09
  Which is the real thing that unlocks the franchise potential.
• 26:12
  Right.
• 26:12
  Like is that you know that audiences are coming back to the movie.
• 26:15
  How do you factor that into your business strategy and what you're thinking about the ip?
• 26:19
  It's very difficult.
• 26:20
  Well, I factored that taking.
• 26:23
  It's unpredictable.
• 26:25
  So Netflix bought us two movies and they stopped buying movies.
• 26:30
  So I can't rely on the streaming services to be a loyal partner or buyer.
• 26:39
  If they, if, if I do a good movie, they will buy the movie for sure because they, they will want to have it on their services.
• 26:47
  But it's not something that, that is central in my strategy.
• 26:51
  I can't, I just can't make it central.
• 26:56
  But at the end of the day, when you think about the territories, it depends on the territories.
• 27:00
  When, when you look at, at the US for example, they don't have middle range, mid range distribution strategy.
• 27:09
  It's whether you go for dominions with 303,000 screen, 30, 40, 50 million PNAS and you go for it, or you do a platform release in two theaters just like Arco or you know, those kind of things.
• 27:28
  So, so the problem is you don't have that mid range strategy.
• 27:31
  So the, the only strategy for my movies to go streaming because honestly nobody will take the risk to this to spend $20 million in P and as on my movies.
• 27:47
  And, and, and, and to be honest, the, I don't want to be too rude but, but it's very difficult for the Hollywood people to understand that $20 million budget movie can do, can do as can do the best.
• 28:01
  A good result.
• 28:03
  They think, okay, that's not enough.
• 28:05
  It's impossible to do a good movie below 60, 70, 80.
• 28:10
  It's all about spending money.
• 28:12
  Absolutely.
• 28:14
  Yeah.
• 28:15
  I think there's definitely that aspect where they see the price tag and they kind of make judgment values on that price tag.
• 28:24
  Are Sony Pictures, are they still involved?
• 28:28
  You were saying that they originally optioned it.
• 28:30
  Are they production partners or distribution partners?
• 28:34
  The first one.
• 28:34
  Well, they are a passive co production partner to be honest, because they own the right at the very beginning.
• 28:41
  So they still have a short, a small part of it.
• 28:50
  There have been production, well, distribution partners on the first one.
• 28:53
  So they released the movie in France and Italy on the second one.
• 28:58
  They were not distribution partners, but yeah.
• 29:02
  Well, we have a very good relationship with them and they are smart enough to understand that beyond their own productions there is room for those kind of, I would say mid range budget movies that are very profitable for
• 29:21
  them also.
• 29:23
  Absolutely.
• 29:24
  And there's an element within those mid range budgets where that's also the, that's the ground from which you're going to get new IPs generated.
• 29:33
  Because the risk aversion of the big studios is that they lean into SQLs and then you're leaning into established IP and you're not really providing the space for new IP to kind of flourish.
• 29:48
  Despicable Me come from that.
• 29:49
  You know, Pierre Coffin created this Despicable Me and Elimination was an independent studio at that time and then it became Elimination Entertainment, a Universal division.
• 30:02
  And then Despicable Me and then Sing and then Minions, et cetera, et cetera.
• 30:07
  But that at the very beginning, Despicable Me is an independent production, you know, is it?
• 30:12
  But that like, that's kind of like the industry seems to have forgotten these sorts of, you know, mid range movies.
• 30:19
  Mid range movies that can go to theatrical, you know, maybe mid range movies, you know, DVD release, this kind of thing.
• 30:26
  Like it feels like it's.
• 30:28
  This has all been kind of forgotten or missed out in the evolution to streaming.
• 30:33
  Yeah, I don't have any explanation about that because Chicken and the first one did extremely well on Netflix.
• 30:45
  Maybe that's the problem.
• 30:49
  We did more than far more expensive movie, you know, so maybe it's not good for the industry that a small budget movie is doing so much.
• 31:02
  You're showing up the other studios by being too good.
• 31:05
  Exactly.
• 31:07
  So.
• 31:07
  But it's not the case.
• 31:08
  At every movie we have flops and we have, you know, it's not working each time.
• 31:13
  So I, I don't Know, I, I think, I do think at the end of the day that a good movie, no matter the budget, a good movie is a good movie.
• 31:23
  A good movie that pleases the audience is a good movie.
• 31:26
  You know, so.
• 31:28
  Absolutely.
• 31:29
  I mean, I, When I was watching Chicken Heron and thinking that the quality of the animation, nobody would be watching that, thinking that it's not punching kind of at the same way as a Pixar movie or an American
• 31:43
  studio.
• 31:44
  And I think there's, I think buyers often, and markets do look at the budget of a production and make their own judgments, but the customer going into the cinema and paying for the ticket, he or she doesn't have
• 32:00
  any baggage clue about kind of.
• 32:03
  Yeah,.
• 32:08
  Yeah, yeah, I think so.
• 32:10
  And when you know about animation, you can understand where.
• 32:16
  Well, we try to be smarter in a way while using the characters and the settings.
• 32:21
  Okay.
• 32:22
  We don't have.
• 32:24
  We have basically we have 50 to 60 talking characters in a movie.
• 32:29
  That's a lot.
• 32:31
  That's a lot.
• 32:32
  But that's less than a Disney animation movie, for example.
• 32:38
  We don't have exactly the same settings, so we are reusing settings.
• 32:43
  Think about Chicken Hair and the Hamster of Darkness.
• 32:47
  The obstacle course takes place in an arena and the final chase is taking place in an arena in the same arena.
• 32:56
  And.
• 32:56
  But it makes sense in terms of story.
• 32:59
  He failed at the beginning of the movie.
• 33:01
  He failed in a place and he succeeds at the end of the movie in the very same place.
• 33:08
  Absolutely.
• 33:09
  It has that narrative symmetry and it's not really that different.
• 33:14
  You mentioned before how animation is just another form of telling a story, but it's not really different from a live action director making.
• 33:23
  I was reading about Steven Spielberg and George Lucas when they did the original Indiana Jones and the Temple of Do.
• 33:29
  And sorry, Indiana Jones raises the Lost Ark and they didn't have the budget that they thought they were going to have, so they said the cheapest special effect that is the most powerful was audio.
• 33:40
  So they were saying a lot of their choices were about making the adventure sound epic and then being very deliberate and intentional about where the camera was positioned.
• 33:53
  And it's the same thing with animation.
• 33:54
  And I do receive so many screenplays and scripts and sometimes they are live action scripts that can't be done because they don't have the budget and say, well, oh, okay, in animation we can do it.
• 34:08
  No, no.
• 34:10
  If you can't do it in live action, you can't do it in animation.
• 34:13
  Or you could do it for a budget.
• 34:16
  That is crazy.
• 34:17
  And maybe if it's not made in live action.
• 34:19
  Maybe it's not good enough.
• 34:21
  But I have a lot of projects coming in that are so crazy in terms of settings and characters because some screenwriters are thinking, okay, well, we can do anything we want in animation.
• 34:33
  No, you can't.
• 34:34
  You can't.
• 34:35
  And I strongly believe, and I'm strong believer that working under constraints is the best way to be creative.
• 34:43
  And you know, I always obsess by, I'm telling to all the artists, okay, I need your talent and I need your vision.
• 34:51
  I need your imaginary.
• 34:54
  I need you to create something I don't want you to.
• 34:58
  Don't, don't.
• 34:59
  Don't blame us about not having enough money.
• 35:01
  Be creative enough so that we can bring something, a story that touch people without having the money.
• 35:07
  It's not.
• 35:08
  Cinema is not about money.
• 35:11
  It's about when you see the success of the back rooms or the other one, I don't remember.
• 35:17
  Yeah, you know, it's, it's not about the money.
• 35:20
  It's.
• 35:21
  It's about talent.
• 35:22
  It's about telling your story.
• 35:24
  See, this is what I don't.
• 35:26
  Yeah, I.
• 35:26
  Look, I obviously love chicken hair.
• 35:29
  And so thank you all for just indulging me in the entire conversation.
• 35:33
  But it is something like, you know, we talked a lot about, you know, the importance of cinema and cinema is an important.
• 35:40
  Spoke of the flywheel for family, for family movies.
• 35:44
  Right.
• 35:44
  It creates a bit of, it creates the start of awareness.
• 35:48
  But these types of, you know, medium budget, really family centric animations that like you say, Matthew, that are, you know, that you can depend on to be crowd pleasing, but also, yeah, they're not going to be scary.
• 36:02
  They're not going to be going to the, to the nth degree in terms of amping up, you know, the drama for the sake of it.
• 36:08
  But that actually pays off because the storytelling has to be stronger.
• 36:12
  I don't understand why this isn't what every streamer is doing, trying to find at least having a lane for this level of film.
• 36:22
  Because like you said, it's so cramp, it's so crowd pleasing.
• 36:25
  Yeah, but it's a very hard job to do writing the stories and finding the right writing the stories with all the different layers of understanding of comedy being smart enough.
• 36:41
  So I strongly believe that the kids are far smarter than everyone imagined in Chicken Hair and the Secret of the Groundhog.
• 36:50
  I had so many screenings with people coming to me saying, adults coming to me saying, yeah, I love the movie, but maybe it's a little bit complicated for the Kids maybe the end of the story, maybe they know
• 37:04
  how.
• 37:04
  And I tell them no.
• 37:06
  And I always ask the kids around them and the five year old, the seven year old, they get everything.
• 37:13
  Everything.
• 37:14
  I can tell you it's a sophisticated story.
• 37:17
  Yeah.
• 37:17
  You have parallel editing during the second act of the story.
• 37:23
  You have three stories at the same time and you are edited in parallel.
• 37:27
  The kids get it without any, any problem.
• 37:31
  Without any problem.
• 37:32
  So I always tell my people, okay, well you know, you are talking to kids, but kids are smart, really smart.
• 37:42
  They are looking at YouTube.
• 37:43
  They are looking at a lot of things.
• 37:45
  They have an education about images, about stories.
• 37:50
  That is, you don't have any comparison with what we had when we were kids.
• 37:55
  So.
• 37:57
  And they can afford sophisticated stories.
• 38:00
  They can afford, but they won't buy a silly story.
• 38:07
  Yeah.
• 38:08
  It needs to be real and from the heart.
• 38:11
  Yeah.
• 38:12
  I think we often talk down to kids and we don't acknowledge the fact that they can assimilate and read a lot of information and content and story.
• 38:23
  And to your point, they're more adept at doing it than ever because that is the world in which they're growing up.
• 38:29
  And we lose, we lose sight of that.
• 38:31
  And I think that's why they appreciate it when they are challenged and served that by a storyteller.
• 38:38
  And the stuff that they might want to go back and watch again just to get it set in their mind, but actually that does you, that gives you repeat watchability.
• 38:47
  Yeah, they don't want to be spoon fed.
• 38:49
  Oh, and I hope one kid, a six year old kid who will like Chicken, Hare and the Secret of the Gundog today, will rewatch it in three years time or in five years time and will suddenly understand other
• 39:02
  layers of the story.
• 39:03
  You know, you can tell there is a political layer, there is a social layer, there's something about budding.
• 39:12
  There is something about.
• 39:13
  There is a lot in this movie and every, every time you watch it and I hope every time you'll rewatch it, you will discover something new and you can discover something new and you can have different angles of
• 39:27
  seeing it.
• 39:28
  Is it a father and son relationship?
• 39:30
  Is it the relationship between Meg and Crawlock is something that is very interesting also.
• 39:37
  You can have different angles and hopefully we can rewatch it.
• 39:42
  Discovering new things every day.
• 39:45
  Yeah.
• 39:46
  It reminds me of when I used to be very into comics as a kid and there were loads of comics that I'd read and I'd understand the story but I'd return to it and then find something else that
• 39:56
  I'd Enjoy about it.
• 39:57
  So it's.
• 39:57
  Yeah, it's like that.
• 39:58
  But that's.
• 39:59
  That's.
• 39:59
  That's tricky.
• 40:00
  That's something different, difficult in terms of writing and editing.
• 40:04
  That's why.
• 40:05
  That's why we.
• 40:06
  We are specialized in that.
• 40:08
  And we're not doing something else because.
• 40:11
  Because I think that's an expertise that is very specific.
• 40:17
  I'm not saying we are excellent at it, but we try to be good at it.
• 40:23
  And to be honest, I'm always a little bit annoyed by projects that are coming to the market that are made by people who don't really know about that market, that don't really know about animation.
• 40:42
  But they have big ip.
• 40:44
  They have someone in a studio that will pay for the movie.
• 40:49
  But at the end of the day, the movie is not good because.
• 40:52
  Because it has not been done by people knowing how to craft it.
• 40:57
  And that's something very specific.
• 41:01
  Oh, great point.
• 41:02
  Don't.
• 41:03
  Don't stare.
• 41:03
  No, it's brilliant.
• 41:05
  A Pulley Chicken Hare three.
• 41:06
  No.
• 41:06
  We have presented our new movie in Annecy, so the next one is ready.
• 41:11
  Yeah, listen.
• 41:13
  Brilliant to talk to you, Matthew.
• 41:14
  I could talk to you all day.
• 41:15
  And we haven't even talked about my favorite characters in chicken hair, which are the piggies.
• 41:19
  Yeah, but the piggies are not there in the original graphic novel.
• 41:25
  That is something that the comic book was not.
• 41:28
  The piggies, they came from the artists in.
• 41:31
  In House.
• 41:34
  That was an idea.
• 41:35
  And they decided to make that square shape and they decided that they will behave like that and they can't do diagonals and those kind of things.
• 41:47
  So it came from the artists and also from the technical and budget constraints.
• 41:55
  And that's an example of what constraints can create in terms of, you know, something new.
• 42:06
  And again, I love.
• 42:07
  I love that there are very subtle references in it when even the music changes.
• 42:12
  And I think that sounds very similar to something that I used to play a lot.
• 42:17
  But I love that because, again, it's subtle enough.
• 42:20
  But for someone like me who's watching it as a parent, I'm like, okay, that's.
• 42:24
  That's there for me, that's music.
• 42:26
  Music is really important in our movies.
• 42:28
  That's something that we are.
• 42:30
  Because.
• 42:30
  Because for me, it's something that.
• 42:33
  That brings that cinematic experience also.
• 42:36
  So we try to have a music, a score that is very cinematic, that.
• 42:42
  That has quality, that has layers also.
• 42:45
  It's not just one piano.
• 42:47
  It's always very sophisticated.
• 42:49
  Very well, orchestral or not.
• 42:52
  That's not the question.
• 42:53
  But something that is a feature score.
• 42:59
  And not random music that you put together.
• 43:04
  Yeah,.
• 43:06
  Brilliant.
• 43:06
  Well, listen, thank you so much for taking the time to come and speak with us.
• 43:10
  Thank you all.
• 43:12
  I've thoroughly enjoyed this, obviously, because I've been talking about chicken hair for years and now I've got to do it professionally.
• 43:20
  So that's great.
• 43:21
  Do you want to do the sign off, Andy?
• 43:23
  Yeah, I'll do the sign off.
• 43:24
  Thanks so much for that, Matthew.
• 43:25
  That was fascinating.
• 43:26
  A great insight into chicken hair and the production of the Chicken Hair movie and its sequel.
• 43:32
  Hope you guys enjoyed listening at home and we will find us wherever you get your podcasts and we will see you all next week.
• 43:45
  But.