Latest / Skin Anarchy / Ama Kwarteng, Beauty Editor for The Coveteur

Transcript

Ama Kwarteng, Beauty Editor for The Coveteur · Skin Anarchy

0:01
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0:30
SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, so with over two months coming up, I know that your skin can get very, very flaky and like become trapped, it can become really dry, and just lots of problems, right?
0:42
SPEAKER_01: Including FA.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: So I want to uh take a brief second and really recommend therapy.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: I know that most of you know about therapy and very well worked in the quality of the products, but I think it's a great place to start.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: Not only if you don't know what skincare, but it's like you if you want custom products, right?
1:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm a super huge fan of this publication, and I'm so excited that she said yes to coming on to the show.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: I know she must be so busy.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Ama Kortang, who is the beauty editor at The Covetour.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show, Ama.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your time.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Hi, thank you for having me.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's such an honor to host you.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: I absolutely love hosting editorial guests and I love the Covetour.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: So I would love to get started with um really your journey and you know how you got involved in editorial and journalism and um what that's been like.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, if you could get us, you know, walk us down memory lane.
2:32
SPEAKER_04: Come on, should I start like at the beginning?
2:34
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, let's start at the very beginning.
2:36
SPEAKER_04: Okay, so I've always been like obviously like a huge reader and really into um writing, but in college I thought that I was going to be a fashion editor.
2:48
SPEAKER_04: So I went to um Barnard College, loved it, great four years, and I did a bunch of internships.
2:54
SPEAKER_04: So it was great because Barnard kind of gives you the best of both worlds.
2:59
SPEAKER_04: So I had a college, like um a traditional college experience in some ways where I was in a sorority, like there was like a campus, um, but I also had the benefits of being in New York City.
3:13
SPEAKER_04: So I could intern during the fall and spring semesters, um, which was really, really, really beneficial to well, really beneficial to my career because it helped me figure out what I do like, what I don't like, and it really helped me make those connections.
3:28
SPEAKER_04: So in college, um, I interned, oh my gosh, so many places, but 17 magazine Cosmo, uh, Marie Claire, um, HBO, uh for a period, I thought I might be interested in documentary filmmaking, but it's I know it turned out to be way too slow paced for me.
3:49
SPEAKER_04: But um, and then also art gallery.
3:52
SPEAKER_04: But yeah, I got a bunch of different experiences there.
3:55
SPEAKER_04: And then once I graduated, or when I was getting ready to graduate, I didn't have a job like um the until I think a few weeks before graduation, it might be like the week before is when I got a job.
4:08
SPEAKER_04: But I had this like insane spreadsheet where I had the names of like people who worked in like fashion editorial, like different names of editors, their email address in like the next column, and then another column, which is like, did you reach out to them?
4:22
SPEAKER_04: Yes or no?
4:23
SPEAKER_04: Did they respond?
4:24
SPEAKER_04: Like, have you followed up?
4:25
SPEAKER_04: Whatever it was like crazy.
4:27
SPEAKER_04: I love that.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: That's so organized.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was so intense, but anyway, I know that's but you know what that it takes that much.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: It takes that.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: So that's really cool.
4:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I feel like you have to really care and like really kind of I don't know, put a lot of effort into it because it is a hard industry to enter into.
4:49
SPEAKER_04: Um, and it's like everyone wants these jobs, so it's like you have to make yourself kind of stand out in some way.
4:55
SPEAKER_04: Um but one of those um informational interviews was with Willow Lindley, who is now the accessories director at Vogue, but she used to be the accessories editor.
5:06
SPEAKER_04: Um, so that led to a freelance position at Vogue.
5:11
SPEAKER_04: It was like a full-time freelance where I was um an accessories assistant for a year and I learned so much.
5:19
SPEAKER_04: Um, just being in the same room with people like Grace Coddington and Tani Goodman as they're like putting together shoots.
5:25
SPEAKER_04: Like I feel like if you're a creative and artistic person, there's there's just like no comparison.
5:32
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I had always like wanted to write, but I had always been kind of I've been scared.
5:38
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
5:39
SPEAKER_04: I just was afraid to call myself a writer.
5:41
SPEAKER_04: I had like this insane, like fear, like paralyzing fear of like the blank page.
5:47
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I knew like I wanted to try.
5:51
SPEAKER_04: So I remember like um seeing a job posting for um a beauty assistant at Hearst.
5:59
SPEAKER_04: And on my insane spreadsheet, I had done an informational interview with um a former beauty editor there, Kate Foster.
6:07
SPEAKER_04: She's amazing.
6:09
SPEAKER_04: And I reached back out to her and was like, are you guys like hiring?
6:13
SPEAKER_04: I'm like looking to leave.
6:14
SPEAKER_04: Like I've been at Vogue for like uh almost a year, um, but I really am interested in beauty.
6:20
SPEAKER_04: And I knew they were hiring, like I knew the jobless team was up, but like I like kind of away.
6:25
SPEAKER_04: Um, and she was like, Yeah, like I'll pass on your um resume to the beauty director, um, who is Leah Wire, Angel, love her.
6:34
SPEAKER_04: Um, and she passed on my resume, and it's so funny, like, they're literally about to hire someone else.
6:40
SPEAKER_04: And Leah saw my resume and was like, okay, let's give this girl an edit test.
6:45
unknown: Yeah.
6:45
SPEAKER_04: So I just What is an edit test?
6:47
SPEAKER_04: What is that?
6:48
SPEAKER_04: So an edit test is like when you're like applying for um like an editorial job, they'll usually give you a test where it's like you um to show your like writing strengths and skills and to kind of get a sense of your voice and if you would be a good fit for the publication.
7:04
SPEAKER_04: So a lot of the questions are like related to like ideas you would pitch.
7:09
SPEAKER_04: Like they might be like, here's a story, like write an intro.
7:12
SPEAKER_04: What products would you include in this story?
7:15
SPEAKER_04: Um, so I did that, and then um the next day I got an interview.
7:20
SPEAKER_04: So then I met with um Leah, who was the um the beauty director for all of the magazines at the time because Hurst was hubbed.
7:30
SPEAKER_04: Um, and the separate individual editors for the other brands.
7:36
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then I got the job the next day.
7:38
SPEAKER_04: So then that's kind of how it all got started.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Wow, I love that though.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: I love that they were like so open to just like giving you the shot.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: And I love I love when uh people do that when they see like a real candidate come across their desk and they're just like, you know what?
7:54
SPEAKER_01: Wait a minute, hold on, you know, let me reset.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: Because see, like one of the best, like one of the uh best topics that was brought up.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: I was talking to Karen Chambers was about this idea of like when you see someone who is like better and the perfect fit, like you gotta go after that.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: So I really love that that they did that.
8:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, it's also like again again, so great because like because I went to Barnight and I was able to have all of these experiences, like that's what made me stand out um when they were basically almost done with the recruiting process for this position.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, like, I yeah, I mean, at the same time, it's like it shows that they care about who they're bringing on.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
8:41
SPEAKER_01: Like it shows that's the biggest thing, is like for me, it's like for publications.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm not gonna lie to you, I have a real pet peeve with people who just check off boxes, you know what I mean?
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's like I I really admire the companies and the publications that are like, no, we want somebody who's not just gonna check off boxes, but they're really are a dynamic individual and they're gonna fit into the culture of our publication and they're gonna, you know, so that's something that's huge.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm really glad that that went um in that direction.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: But what about um so how did you end up with the covetour?
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Oh let's keep this.
9:15
SPEAKER_04: So I was um, so I was at Cosmo for oh, it's so it's so interesting.
9:19
SPEAKER_04: So when I joined Cosmo, like I said, Hearst was hubs, so I was working on in the luxury beauty group.
9:26
SPEAKER_04: So I was working on Marie Killer, El, Tannin Country, and Harper's Bazaar.
9:31
SPEAKER_04: And then six months after I joined, we got a new president at Hearst, and he was like, We're not doing this hub thing anymore.
9:39
SPEAKER_04: Everyone's gonna be on one magazine.
9:42
SPEAKER_04: So Leah um became the beauty director at Cosmo, and she took me um with her as the assistant, and um also um Lauren Balsamo was the senior beauty assistant there at the time.
9:55
SPEAKER_04: So we went to Cosmo and we kind of, and it's so funny.
9:59
SPEAKER_04: So I'd only worked on print at the time.
10:02
SPEAKER_04: And when we were being de-hubbed or unhubbed, whatever the term is, um Cosmo was also combining both print and digital.
10:12
SPEAKER_04: So then we had our two other members of the digital team um combine with the three of us in the print team.
10:19
SPEAKER_04: So it was like a lot of change.
10:22
SPEAKER_04: And also Cosmo had gotten a new editor-in-chief, Jessica Pels.
10:26
SPEAKER_04: And so it was like a, it was honestly like looking back, such a good moment for me because it was like there was no rules, right?
10:34
SPEAKER_04: And there was no predecess, like there's no predecessance set.
10:39
SPEAKER_04: So it was kind of really easy for me to carve my way.
10:44
SPEAKER_04: But, anyways, um, so after all that craziness happened, um, Cardi, Carly Cardalino, who was the um DVA director of digital at the time at Cosmo, had a baby.
10:58
SPEAKER_04: So she went on Matt Leave, and then Leah um got a new job, so she left.
11:04
SPEAKER_04: So it was three of us on the beauty team, and it was very hectic.
11:11
SPEAKER_04: So I like I said, imagine.
11:12
SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's a lot of work for just three people.
11:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and especially like with me who had never written really written before, like I'd only done like so I majored in anthropology in college.
11:23
SPEAKER_04: So I only done like academic papers, like I'd never written something for like a general like audience.
11:30
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
11:32
SPEAKER_04: Um that was so I was able to do things that typically like an assistant wouldn't do.
11:38
SPEAKER_04: So I was writing like um a lot for print.
11:42
SPEAKER_04: I was writing features uh like in the well section of the magazine, which is like where the um the longer stories are for each section.
11:51
SPEAKER_04: And I was writing a lot for digital.
11:54
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then it was probably like March 2020.
12:00
SPEAKER_04: So when the pandemic happened, I I don't know, I was just like kind of feeling like stagnant and like I don't know, like very meant.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: You wanted a change, like you just wanted to change, yeah.
12:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
12:13
SPEAKER_04: So, and obviously, like no one was hiring at the time.
12:16
SPEAKER_04: So I was like, okay, Ama, if you're gonna do this writing thing, it's time to take it, like you need to take it seriously.
12:23
SPEAKER_04: So I just started like pitching more ideas that I want to write.
12:29
SPEAKER_04: And we had we had a new beauty director at the time, Julie Wilson, and she's absolutely amazing, and she was so like willing to hear new ideas and big ideas, and just yeah, she's just a great.
12:43
SPEAKER_04: So I was able to like, I don't know, I just like decided I was going to pitch bigger beauty stories.
12:50
SPEAKER_04: And I was also like, I'm also really interested in politics.
12:52
SPEAKER_04: So I was like contributing to the op-ed and the features team.
12:57
SPEAKER_04: And I like would do informational interviews with members on the team.
13:01
SPEAKER_04: So I remember like talking to the features director, um, who at the time was Andrea Stanley and she's wonderful, and she was just giving me so much free advice and was like, if you ever like want to help on features, like I'm here.
13:15
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Yes.
13:16
SPEAKER_04: Like I was just like very hungry to do everything and anything.
13:20
SPEAKER_04: And I think that was like really the spark of, I don't know, that was just like really what I needed um at the time to just like I don't know, just really get into the work.
13:32
SPEAKER_04: Um and then I decided I started taking writing workshop classes um online.
13:39
SPEAKER_04: And they had never like because of the pandemic, they were now available online.
13:44
SPEAKER_04: So I took a class um in early 2001 with Lisa Kennedy at this um writer's workshop in Denver, and it was like um it was what was it called?
13:57
SPEAKER_04: It was like crafting like the long form essay or something similar.
14:01
SPEAKER_04: But I grew so much from those eight weeks alone.
14:06
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I kept taking writing classes.
14:08
SPEAKER_04: Like I took a poetry class through Lighthouse, and then um they also do this thing called Litfest, where you can apply to week-long intensives.
14:18
SPEAKER_04: So I got into this class with one of my favorite writers, um Hanif Abdur Akib, who's an essayist and a poet and a critic, and that was amazing.
14:27
SPEAKER_04: And I met um one of my really good friends, Katie, through that class, and now we exchange work that um outside of our day jobs with each other.
14:37
SPEAKER_04: And I just and I just finished up a class that was focused on setting in at Catapult, which is based in New York.
14:46
SPEAKER_04: So last year writing just became like I always joke with my friends, like writing is the only thing that I care about.
14:55
SPEAKER_04: But that is like that is like I don't know, it's like the crux of the career, right?
15:04
SPEAKER_01: So it's like Yeah, good publication, good, good edit editorial and good writing is definitely, yeah, you're right.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: And I love, I mean, I just wanted to like let you talk because I really admire your work ethic.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you really like, you know, you took this on and you were like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this right.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: And you went and you got the education you wanted and and you got the extra information that you needed.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: And I really admire that.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: That's something that you don't, yeah.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you don't see that a lot, you know.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, today I was, I actually like I mentor some people like that are you know coming into the world of like just their careers or you know, whatever.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: And I all I always tell them, like, you guys, you guys have to work very hard, you know.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: Like I can't tell you how many internships people who are successful, like how many internships they have to go through to get to that point.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, especially with the generations now, it's this this, I almost feel like it's not laziness, but like they want like instant results.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I blame like social media for that, but like um, you know, it's just I I think that that's such a wonderful message to send out to everyone listening that might be a younger um audience that you know, like like look at how hard Ava worked.
16:21
SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, like it was yeah, the it I mean it's like again, and you have to really enjoy the work you're doing, or like I'm also like like spiritual, so I believe that I'm supposed to be a writer and that's like my calling.
16:39
SPEAKER_04: So it's like I yeah, I don't know, it's like just been it's been a process, but it's been also so uh fulfilling.
16:49
SPEAKER_04: Um and you know, also like writing I've all I also write fiction, so that's also been another creative outlet for me.
16:59
SPEAKER_04: But I feel like anytime like someone who wants to come into editorial asks me for advice, it's always read as much as possible and write as much as possible.
17:08
SPEAKER_04: Because I feel like that's the thing that makes you stand out.
17:12
SPEAKER_04: And especially with beauty, I think that well, one, a lot of beauty writing um can be repetitive when you're like talking about the same products.
17:20
SPEAKER_04: So to be able to say something in a new way, I mean, that's all writing, right?
17:24
SPEAKER_04: Like everything has basically been talked about before, but you bringing your own voice and your perspective to it is what makes it unique and what makes it special.
17:34
SPEAKER_04: Um and I also think that at Cosmo, I start, I like like I said, I started writing op-eds.
17:42
SPEAKER_04: Like the first one I wrote was um about the politics of um then Senator Kamala Harris's hair.
17:51
SPEAKER_04: But I think that looking at beauty through different perspectives or different lenses, like culture, politics, all of these things, and how your appearance can I don't know, can show or can say so much about how you want to be seen or how you want others to see you, um, is something that is kind of like underdeveloped in beauty editorial in general.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, I totally agree.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's so fascinating.
18:20
SPEAKER_04: So I was really excited that like I was able to do that at Cosmo and I'm able to do that at Covator.
18:26
SPEAKER_04: Um and I don't know, it's just so interesting.
18:29
SPEAKER_04: But like after like almost three years at um Cosmo, I uh I became the um associate beauty editor.
18:38
SPEAKER_04: And then my now boss, Jess Teeves, who's also an angel and amazing, she slid in my DMs and asked me if I would be interested in this beauty editor position.
18:48
SPEAKER_04: So it's kind of that's yeah, that's kind of the story.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: I really love that.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: And I love that it's not like one of those, like, well, I was just you know, interning at one place and then I got hired to be like the top editor.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know what I mean?
19:04
SPEAKER_04: I was intentional.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: Like yeah, yeah.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that I I think that that leads like really is a segue for me because like I I was we were talking, everyone was saying um before the episode, and I was uh talking to Ama about um the inclusivity and diversity uh interview I did with Karen Chambers of Iman Cosmetics, and she's also a CEW board member, and like we really went in, like we were like super in-depth, you know what I mean?
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Like just next level kind of conversation.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: And like one of the things that came up was I had previously interviewed Kayla Greaves, and Kayla is like, oh my gosh, I am Kayla's biggest fan.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: I love her work, and I really just you know, I brought her up because when I was talking to Kayla, Kayla was it made a very solid point.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: And she was like, you know, unfortunately, the way it is right now, a lot of the work that has to do with inclusion or diversity, or if there's a brand that came out and it's like a black-owned business, or it's a, you know, just a more diverse range of products, all of that falls on the shoulders of the few beauty editors and directors that are of color, you know, in this industry.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's and it's a a lot of work.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: And I would love to get your opinion.
20:21
SPEAKER_04: It's a lot of pressure too, because these brands want to be taken.
20:28
SPEAKER_04: I don't know, I feel like a lot of brand founders that I've spoken to, like, they don't just want to be seen as a black-owned brand, like because people who aren't black can use their products, you know?
20:39
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's like they they just want to be a part of the whole conversation.
20:45
SPEAKER_04: So it's like the idea of like kind of siloing them in a way, isn't something that I I don't know, I I never feel super comfortable with it because I I I don't think that's getting at the root of the issue, right?
21:03
SPEAKER_04: So the root of the issue is like a lot of black owned like businesses can't get loans because there's like racism on that financial level.
21:12
SPEAKER_04: They can't get certain promotions because of like there's it's like a lot of the stuff underground that is the actual issue.
21:20
SPEAKER_04: And I don't know, I feel like I have it's like it's definitely so complicated because obviously you want to show these brands love, and we all do.
21:32
SPEAKER_04: Um but it's like like Kayla was saying, like it's not oh, like you put together a roundup of black owned brands and then like you're done.
21:40
SPEAKER_04: Like that's the it that's not the issue, you know.
21:43
SPEAKER_04: And I think that's like a lot of the the confusion.
21:47
SPEAKER_04: It's like this idea that like um capitalism is gonna save or solve racism.
21:54
SPEAKER_04: And that's not that's not how uh yeah, that's not gonna happen.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: Because no, if you you're really You know, you really hit the nail on the head with what you said.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: And this is something that I have actually I've posted about this on my own personal Instagram.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: And I um really never really got a response from anybody.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: But like, you know, it was something that it's been on my mind is the idea that, like, you know, brands that are owned by um people with very culturally diverse backgrounds, like even like, you know, for me, I'm Indian, right?
22:24
SPEAKER_01: So like I grew up in an Indian household, and I'll see a lot of brands come up that are like uh founded by by Indian women.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: And like, you know, one of my biggest pet peeves is like you're putting like elephants and Indian, like, you know, calligraphy all over your packaging.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, don't do that because your goal is to be a founder, right?
22:43
SPEAKER_01: You want to connect with a multi-diverse audience.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: And I just I hate that.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like, especially with black owned businesses, um, you're put what when you do what you know, what you and I were just talking about, you're putting them back into a box that they've been trying to get out of for all this time, you know?
23:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's it's it's unfortunate because I feel like and it's also the way it's framed too.
23:10
SPEAKER_04: It's like, oh, they're doing them a favor.
23:12
SPEAKER_04: It's like no one's asking for a favor.
23:14
SPEAKER_04: People are asking for you to give them the same amount of time and energy that you give to other brands.
23:20
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I don't know, it's yeah, again, it's like it kind of feels sometimes that it can be further othering, right?
23:30
SPEAKER_04: When you're putting them into these groups, and and it's like, what are you saying?
23:35
SPEAKER_04: You know, I don't know.
23:37
SPEAKER_04: It's like, yeah, it's like a very complicated.
23:39
SPEAKER_04: And I remember feeling like I remember feeling weird like last summer when all these like lists of like editors and like makeup artists and whatever were coming out because I'm like, what what is what's the goal?
23:54
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
23:55
SPEAKER_04: And it's like for example, an editorial, a lot of the issues related to why there aren't it's not a super diverse industry, is one most internships are unpaid, and a lot of the industries in New York an expensive ass city.
24:14
SPEAKER_04: So again, you're immediately excluding a huge group of the population when you're the only way to get these jobs is through experience.
24:24
SPEAKER_04: But if you're not at a financial level, you can't get that experience.
24:29
SPEAKER_04: So like it wouldn't make sense for me to at least to me, like for people to like push companies to like um pay their interns a livable wage or at least like support.
24:43
SPEAKER_04: I know there's I can't think of the name right now, but there are instant like um groups that um fund internships for people in the city.
24:52
SPEAKER_04: Um and like putting money towards that.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like it's or even like housing, right?
24:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean a lot of expenses that come with like being on your own, and like you know, you have these young professionals and they're moving to New York City for get a building, yeah, get another.
25:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you have to put down like two months rent and like the first month, last month, and yeah, no, and then also it's like a lot of times when you put people in these positions, and then what?
25:23
SPEAKER_04: Like it's kind of sometimes it feels like they're further tokenized, like you don't really care about what their actual opinions are.
25:33
SPEAKER_04: You don't really want them to like kind of shake the table to use that phrase.
25:38
SPEAKER_04: You're just there so they can make you feel better about yourself and your company, which then it's like you're not really seeing them as whole people, you're seeing them as signifiers for your own political beliefs.
25:51
SPEAKER_04: And that's that's terrible, that's shitty.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's counterproductive.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: It's counterproductive.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: It's it's absolutely, and you know, I I really, really believe in the idea that, you know, if we really want to walk down this road of, you know, let's be inclusive, let's be diverse, let's be this, that, then what you need to like brands and publications and everyone that's in charge needs to understand is that, like I said, stop checking off this checklist.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
26:22
SPEAKER_01: Like you have it's you have to be authentic and you have to dive deeper into a human being.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: We are all different.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, okay, the color of my skin puts me in this category, but why don't you look at me as a human being and try to figure out am I genuine and is there something about me that could really bring value to your company?
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Because that's really where the the true inclusion is.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: That's where it is.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, I I have this.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a part of me, I'm very passionate about featuring brands that are um, you know, like they are diverse brands.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: And like recently, I really want you to look at this brand, by the way, Ama.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, if you get a chance, it's called Lamique Beauty.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: And like, I really I interviewed um the founder recently, and we talked about this as well.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: And she said exactly what you were saying was that I don't want to be known as a black brand.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: I want to be known as a brand that is made for people who, you know, they they might be allergic to cosmetics, they might be allergic to like the lip gloss they're using or something.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, we are a safer option and all this stuff.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, I completely understand.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: I get it, you know.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, but but but but it's like, you know, when these these kind of small indie brands get featured, it's always lumped up, like you said.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: It's like this roundup of black owned businesses.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, why are you doing that?
27:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I feel like they should just be included with everyone else, like, you know, and I I like I understand that I don't know, I just wish we could kind of get to a point where we weren't using we, I don't know, identity is so tricky and it's so interesting, but I definitely agree with what you're saying, this idea that you're kind of like lumped into this huge group of people who are so diverse within itself.
28:14
SPEAKER_04: Um, and it's like, what is again, what does that say?
28:19
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
28:20
SPEAKER_04: Like yeah, again, it's creating a monolith where there doesn't need to be one.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's segmentation, you know, it's fine.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: You're just segmenting um a population that's already been going through that for generations and generations and generations, and you're just doing it all over again, and you're doing it in new and creative ways, which is without actually solving the problem at the actual root of the issue because they don't want to talk about the problem.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: No one wants to talk about the real problem.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: That's the issue.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: Like it's like, you know, I I I hate that.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: I really hate that.
28:55
SPEAKER_04: I agree, and I think that it's like I think it's part of it is also like the real issues are hard and they're like difficult, and people really want to be like, oh, I want to make a difference, and they want to find, I guess, like the easiest way to do that, but sometimes that's not even really making a difference.
29:15
SPEAKER_04: So it's like I'd I don't know.
29:17
SPEAKER_04: I like remember like I like talking to like an old roommate about like recycling, and I was like, one, a lot of cities don't recycle anymore because of the price, and like a lot of times when you think you're recycling, it's not being recycled, it's like ending up in a landfill anyway.
29:33
SPEAKER_04: And she was trying to make the argument that, like, well, like it makes people feel good or whatever, but I'm like, well, like it's time to grow up.
29:42
SPEAKER_04: Like, you know what I mean?
29:43
SPEAKER_04: Like, just be it's not making a difference.
29:46
SPEAKER_04: Like instead of like, I don't know, spending money or spending like a ton of time like recycling products that aren't going to be recycled, maybe that time might be better spent working um with a grassroots grassroots organization who's like pushing for legislation that would actually like I don't know, fix the recycling system in your city or donating money to a politician who is this is at the top of their agenda and they're making strides into accomplishing this.
30:17
SPEAKER_04: Like I feel like there's so many different ways we can put our time and our energy towards making change.
30:23
SPEAKER_04: Um but for some reason, a lot of people, I don't know, their first instinct is to either buy something, um, which it's not to like minimize that impact is obviously in the capitalist society that does make a difference.
30:38
SPEAKER_04: But I I feel like the other parts of the equation aren't as talked about as much.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: I completely agree.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, just to add to your points, like I think definitely voting with your dollars is huge, but it's also very much important to find solutions to a problem.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: And I promise you, if you look and if you really consider what the real problem is, that you're and I'm you know, I'm also a very spiritual person.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: I I really believe that if you ask for what you want and you have an intention towards it, it will be given to you.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: And so you're you know, yeah, I know I believe in that.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: I really believe, and it's like if you put that out to the universe and you say, I want a solution for this problem, and you're genuine, and your intent is genuine, you're gonna find a solution.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: And you just have to, but you have to be genuine.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: And I think the the real question that I have, and I really, really do um, you know, uh with for lack of a better term, I challenge the people out there that are promoting this, promoting themselves as being inclusion and diversity leaders.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: I challenge them to the question of, well, if you truly are a leader in this field, then where is the real change?
31:50
SPEAKER_01: Because from where I'm standing, I'm not seeing it.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: I have maybe three uh three women of color that are editorial guests of mine that have been kind enough to come onto my show.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: And I am still trying to figure out where is that inclusion and diversity?
32:07
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Like, why doesn't Ama have like 15 other women she works with that are from different backgrounds, not just black, but like in you know what I mean?
32:15
SPEAKER_01: Like what where is it?
32:16
SPEAKER_01: Where is it?
32:17
SPEAKER_04: Like so, and like that's it's like it's like it's again the pipeline is like it's yeah, it's not it's not great again because of like the bit there's so many barriers to entry.
32:32
SPEAKER_04: And it's like if you just graduated from college and you have all these student loans, are you really gonna work in media?
32:39
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
32:40
SPEAKER_04: If you don't have that support from your family, like no, yeah, exactly, exactly.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: No, exactly.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I want to actually I want to move forward a little bit because I know that um right now publications are really going through a transition, you know, with this whole, you know, I I remember when I first interviewed uh Crystal Dameo, she was um her and I were raving about how you know I grew up in the 90s and you know, total millennial, sorry, can't talk.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was a huge magazine girl, you know, I loved getting the physical magazines, yeah.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Like like, you know, snipping out of a magazine and like making like your collage of things you love and those kind of things.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: And I know that we're moving towards this more digital world, and I'm not gonna lie, like I'm not like a huge fan of it.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't, I feel like it just doesn't feel the same.
33:29
SPEAKER_04: So like it is different.
33:31
SPEAKER_04: Like, I'm I grew up a print girl, like I even like like with my books, like I don't understand how people read books on Kindles.
33:38
SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm miles, I think that is wild.
33:44
SPEAKER_04: Um and yeah, I just need I love having the physical copy of magazines and flipping through it's an experience too.
33:52
SPEAKER_04: And I feel like we spend so much time on our phones, so being able to I don't know, kind of remove yourself from that.
34:02
SPEAKER_04: I'm so like uh big on social media breaks and all that stuff.
34:08
SPEAKER_04: Um just because it's like I feel like it's how you get your inspiration.
34:15
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
34:15
SPEAKER_04: And I also feel like with print, it's so curated, um, which is fantastic.
34:22
SPEAKER_04: And it's like every word counts and everything counts.
34:26
SPEAKER_04: Um I do love the fact that with digital, you can immediately put something up, right?
34:33
SPEAKER_04: You can do a turnaround something quickly.
34:35
SPEAKER_04: You can like if there is something breaking or something you want to cover or a moment, you won't come to it late, if that makes sense.
34:47
SPEAKER_04: Um I really appreciated.
34:49
SPEAKER_04: And I feel like um the great thing about Covetour, it's like not really a news-driven site, it's um very evergreen.
34:58
SPEAKER_04: So, for example, uh we uh did a digital cover, our digital um issue um during the summer that was called The Future of Fashion.
35:08
SPEAKER_04: And I wrote two beauty uh wrote one beauty story and edited another.
35:12
SPEAKER_04: So the one I wrote was like, Does beauty need a czar?
35:16
SPEAKER_04: So basically like someone to oversee the beauty industry.
35:19
SPEAKER_04: But that's something like that, like for a print magazine, it could live in print, but it also works on digital for our site because it is evergreen.
35:27
SPEAKER_04: And I love the fact that we're able to like uh tap in on these like very like um topical um uh subjects like climate change and sustainability.
35:42
SPEAKER_04: And we're able to do it in a way that's very thoughtful and in-depth.
35:47
SPEAKER_04: Um which unfortunately, because of like the obsession with clicks and like SEO in digital, a lot a lot of brands don't have like the um really the bandwidth to do that.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: Um so I think that's like the storytelling, you know what I mean?
36:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I love I actually love the covetary.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a phenomenal publication.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: And I think that is so it's so inspired, you know, like all the articles and all of the um information that's put that's put up.
36:19
SPEAKER_01: It's like I really enjoy like reading the articles.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: I really enjoy looking through the material that that you guys um choose to focus on.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a phenomenal standout publication, you know.
36:30
SPEAKER_04: So um yeah, that's what drew me to it in the first place.
36:34
SPEAKER_04: Like, and we just launched our after do this plug, our class of 2021 issue yesterday.
36:40
SPEAKER_04: Um, and it was, I'm like so proud of the whole team for putting together like it, I think it was like 16 something features, and the majority of them were profiles.
36:52
SPEAKER_04: So um I was able to write the cover story um and interview Issa Ray, and I also profiled um an author, Elogosa Sunday, who's Nigerian and she's incredible.
37:06
SPEAKER_04: Um, her debut novel comes out in March.
37:09
SPEAKER_04: And then also I spoke with um makeup artist and Dior Beauty's newest ambassador, um, Sam Bisser.
37:17
SPEAKER_04: He's incredible.
37:19
SPEAKER_04: So it's like there's and we have there's just so many amazing stories.
37:23
SPEAKER_04: And again, that's again what drew me to the brand in the first place.
37:26
SPEAKER_04: Like I said, the storytelling, it's incredible.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, I love that you um are doing these profiles because I love reading stuff like that.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: I love reading about yeah, like, you know, because that's honestly for me, like with Skincare Anarchy, that's really why I created it to be such a like, like, for example, for brands, like such a founder-based approach when I do my interviews, because I'm like, I want to, I want people to know about these people, you know, like you want to know about the people behind the brands.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: You want to know, like, as a consumer, like who is really the insp who's driving this inspiration and vision of this brand, because that's that's what we resonate with, you know what I mean?
38:06
SPEAKER_04: That's what covet were like that's how it began because it was the closets of like these editors and like cool, especially me growing up in Ohio and seeing that.
38:16
SPEAKER_04: I was like, no, wait, you're from Ohio?
38:18
SPEAKER_01: I am too.
38:20
SPEAKER_04: Stop.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: We're in Ohio.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, have we not discussed?
38:25
SPEAKER_01: I um I grew up actually, I went to high school in Cincinnati, like in the suburbs of Cincinnati.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: And I'm outside of Columbus.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: I actually I did a uh IT job in Columbus.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: I've I've lived in every city in Ohio, really, before I went international with my endeavors.
38:45
SPEAKER_04: I I love it.
38:46
SPEAKER_04: I'm here now and it's so nice to be home.
38:49
SPEAKER_04: I feel like I get have a greater appreciation for it as I get older.
38:53
SPEAKER_04: Yes, me too.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: And the seasons, I love the seasons.
38:56
SPEAKER_01: So the seasons fall, the Midwest falls, they're unmatched.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know why people don't understand that.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: Everyone's always talking about like, oh yeah, you know, like you gotta go to like Maine or like you gotta go to Google Ohio.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Literally.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: Super okay, okay, tangent, but yes, like getting back to it.
39:19
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so the covetory you were telling me, it was founded on um people's closets and uh and their story around like I feel like a lot of it was the time where like also into the gloss was um really big and like you never got a sense of the behind the scenes, right?
39:38
SPEAKER_04: How did so and so get into this position in the first place?
39:41
SPEAKER_04: And like also like beauty and fashion, like your pieces that you have in your collection tell so much about a person.
39:48
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think that that is the core of the brand.
39:54
SPEAKER_04: So especially with um 2020 when we really couldn't do closets the way that we could do them before.
40:03
SPEAKER_04: Um it was really, I feel like this was a year of kind of reimagining, okay, what are different ways we can tell stories um and kind of share the behind the scenes like what's the word?
40:17
SPEAKER_04: Behind the scenes uh glimpse of these people's lives.
40:21
SPEAKER_04: And I feel like Colasa 2021 completely like nailed it.
40:26
SPEAKER_04: Like I'm so I'm so happy to be part of this team.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: No, I I think that this is definitely, you know, you know, being being in the midst of COVID and how everyone was feeling and how, you know, people were just not feeling like, you know, the best of themselves, best versions of themselves.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was a huge time, I think, for editorial to really step up the game.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: And it was, you know, it was a time when we all really needed these articles and these features because we all wanted to feel like ourselves again, right?
40:57
SPEAKER_01: It's like getting ready to go outside or getting ready to like, you know, go to work.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: Like that's all of it, like it's not just about that, it's about like how we perceive ourselves when we're getting ready and when we look our best.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: And so, like when we can really kind of relate to articles or new features that are like talking about things that are um, you know, more relevant, they make us feel more comfortable.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a huge part of how people got through COVID, you know, honestly.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, social media is social media, like, you know, I always say this, like I always I really do believe that like you know, social media has its uh place, but like you can't compare it to editorial.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: Editorial is a whole different world, okay?
41:38
SPEAKER_04: And so we there's like so much more depth, you know.
41:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and yeah, obviously, no shade like on social media creators, uh, but I I'm I've always been an editorial girl, and I feel like that's like where I feel most at home because it's just like a space to tell stories, you know.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: And also like when I get my like for me, when I get recommendations and when I see something uh or a brand that stands out, I'm sorry, but it's always editorial.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: It's never from an influencer, it's never from like, I mean, okay, yeah, I might like call it might like follow up with like some influencers I trust and like see if they've reviewed the brand or something, you know what I mean?
42:20
SPEAKER_01: But like it's never like, oh, I I got this from an influencer.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: And I know that like, for example, like you know, bringing it to skincare, like I know a lot of people were buying things during COVID that were like promoted by these um micro influencers on Instagram and TikTok and all these social media platforms, and it really led people to a place that their skin is just not in its best place right now.
42:44
SPEAKER_04: You know, and it's like, yeah, I thought people forget that like skincare is so individual.
42:50
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, no, it's so it's so fascinating.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: But at the same at the same time, though, it's like it like it really goes to the point that I was just saying is that if you got your information from a curated area or source, like an editorial piece, you probably wouldn't be going through that because a lot of the things that are covered in magazines and a lot of the you know, pe and you know, find an find an editor, find a writer that you resonate with, you know, that's my real point here is like if you are someone who really resonates with someone's writing or like how they talk, you know, um, like or or how they portray, like, you know, um their point of view, then connect with them and see and follow them as a writer and see what they come out with.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: And like, you know what I mean?
43:38
SPEAKER_01: So like that needs to be promoted, I feel like.
43:41
SPEAKER_04: It's also interesting because one of my favorite um content creators is um Chrissy Rutherford, and she used to be an editor at Harper's Bazaar for years, and I now she um she's like an influencer, she has like a newsletter, but her her platform to me.
44:00
SPEAKER_04: Feels very thoughtful, very informative, very like also like casual in the sense like it feels like you're following a friend who has amazing fashion tastes.
44:12
SPEAKER_04: Um and I think that's what I value in the influences that I do follow.
44:19
SPEAKER_04: A lot of them, one, do have that editorial background, but it's like that level of thoughtfulness um just really comes through.
44:26
SPEAKER_04: And I think again, like Chrissy's just is a very authentic person.
44:31
SPEAKER_04: So it's never, I never feel like she's just trying to sell uh her followers something.
44:38
SPEAKER_04: Um it's like if she's like promoting or like if she's um vouching for like a pair of jeans, a sweater, a skincare product, a hair product, I trust her opinion.
44:50
SPEAKER_04: And like it's like, I don't know, it's like again, you building that trust.
44:54
SPEAKER_04: And it's like, how do you do that in the best way?
44:56
SPEAKER_04: And I feel like she's definitely a blueprint in terms of um content creators and influencers on how you can, I don't know, create that sense of authority without just feeling or without people feeling like you're selling out or you're just like selling yourself out to the highest bidder.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I completely agree.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: And for me, it's Elise Tabin.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: I I love Elise.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: Elise is amazing.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: She's like she was like one of the founding members of New Beauty, and like she ended up, yeah, like she's amazing oh my god, she's really amazing.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: And like she ended up with her own thing.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: She's got her own website, and she basically like, you know, she'll review brands that she really thinks works, and she'll even show you, like on in her Instagram feed, like she'll, you know, use the brand and use the product, and she'll show you like this is why I like it.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: And I and I appreciate those kinds of you know, former editors or former people that were just attached to a publication because, you know, they've got, like you said, they've got the vision, they've got that in their DNA at this point where they're going to curate things from a very wide lens.
46:03
SPEAKER_01: They're not going to do it with this, like, you know, ulterior motive in mind.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: They're really going to look at the things that matter.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: And that's something that, you know, like if you're looking for an influencer and if you're looking for, you know, a go-to social media person, I really urge you find these editors that you, you know, have turned into more of like an influencer type of uh individual.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: So I agree with you.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: I totally agree.
46:25
SPEAKER_04: Definitely.
46:26
SPEAKER_04: I also want to shout out um Carly Cardellino.
46:30
SPEAKER_04: Um, she also, like, I is an editor turned like content creator, freelancer, and influencer.
46:36
SPEAKER_04: Again, like trusts every single product that she recommends.
46:40
SPEAKER_04: Um, and same with Christina Rodolfo.
46:43
SPEAKER_04: So she um was that woman's health.
46:45
SPEAKER_04: I think she left last year.
46:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she was on my show.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed it.
46:48
SPEAKER_04: Yes, she's great.
46:50
SPEAKER_04: I love her.
46:50
SPEAKER_04: And again, that's another person whose opinion I'm like definitely trust.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, she's really cool.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: And I love Christina's like approach to things because she makes it really, really like fun, and like all of her videos are like super like cute.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, I love how she like posts her content, right?
47:07
SPEAKER_04: So, like, yeah, I completely authentic to who she is.
47:11
SPEAKER_04: Like, I feel like all of the people we've mentioned, like, they're not trying to be someone that they're not, um, and that's like what makes them stand out.
47:20
SPEAKER_01: I completely agree, I completely agree, and you know, um, just to round up the episode, Ama, I want you to give us um, I know you've given so many um just jewels here of like just knowledge and like an inside look and um for young professionals, but I really want you to give some advice to the young women and men out there that are looking to get into editorial and that really want to make it work, you know, anything that you can offer.
47:50
SPEAKER_04: Um I I know I I already said this, but like read it, read as much as possible as widely as possible and write as much as possible, but also keep going because this industry is tough.
48:06
SPEAKER_04: And if this is really something that you want to do, there's gonna I feel like you have to have a larger vision or a larger goal in mind because there is a lot of bullshit that you have to deal with along the way.
48:18
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I feel like having a larger goal um and stuff and focusing on the macro instead of the micro again, day-to-day nonsense um will really uh I don't know, keep you pushing along.
48:33
SPEAKER_04: Also be nice to everyone because you you never know who's gonna show up again in your the path, the industry is really small, and also people like working with nice people, so it's like they'll recommend you for things, they'll uh put your name out there.
48:52
SPEAKER_04: And again, I I really believe that if you're putting like positive energy out there, that's what you'll get in return.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: Pay it forward, guys.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: Pay it forward, you know.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: Like I completely agree and I love that.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for that.
49:07
SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, there's a lot of people, I you know, I know that we get messages from listeners that are younger and they're like, Oh, I love your advice, and I love you know the advice that you guys um end up getting from like the real professionals in the industry.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciate you um you know sharing that.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, of course.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate you having me here.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, I feel like I can talk to you forever.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, me too.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: And I want you back anytime your schedule allows, seriously.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: Like I would love to continue this, and I would love to do part two, three, four, five, six.
49:40
SPEAKER_01: Sequel coming soon.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: So and everyone listening, please um leave your comments, suggestions, um, anything in the comment section for the podcast art for this.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I will definitely pass along any questions you have to Ama if she has the time.
49:54
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, just leave keep the conversation going.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think we touched on a lot of really cool points, really important points.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: And I just, you know, that's one of my biggest things.
50:04
SPEAKER_01: I want you guys to keep these conversations going because this is how change happens, right?
50:09
SPEAKER_01: It's like you you get the idea from like a conversation you've heard somewhere else, and then you talk to your friends about it, and that's how it keeps going.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: So I really urge you to um, you know, don't be silent about things.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: If you feel strongly, keep going.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: So thank you, Aman.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: This has been so lovely.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: Um Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
50:32
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50:37
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50:39
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50:54
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51:11
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51:20
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51:25
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51:32
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51:37
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.