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The Things That Made Us: Growing Older Without Growing Old · Death Before Decay

• speaker-0: All right, welcome to the Death Before Decay podcast. I'm Dr. Elliott Humeston. This podcast is about creativity, business, confidence, identity, and building meaningful things around us. Sometimes that's dentistry, sometimes it's community, sometimes it's culture and creativity. Mostly it's just about having real conversations with some interesting people. And today we've got my old buddy Andrew Jakus with us here today. How are you doing, Jakus speaker-1: Doing great. Thanks for having me today, guys. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And we've got ⁓ my co host John Erline with us today wearing his Back to the Future shirt which he wanted to display. speaker-2: Thanks for having me. Yes, I thought this was appropriate for the guest because he's super cool and so is the shirt. speaker-1: I take a lot of honor in that. Thank you. Thank you, John. ⁓ speaker-0: Absolutely. ⁓ all right. So ⁓ Jacobs and I actually met back at the old Sheboygan Memorial Mall. ⁓ you worked at the coolest store in town, Revolution. And I worked at GameStop, which was the coolest store to a lot of the nerds in town. So like we were both really cool. and I think we both I'm a little older than you, but we both kind of grew up around that ⁓ that alternative culture skating, snowboarding, music scene. Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ and then since then you've taken over the shop from local legend Mike Miller. Absolutely. Yeah. speaker-1: Mike Miller. speaker-2: Hashtag KillerMiller speaker-1: Thriller Miller too. speaker-2: Miller maxing. speaker-0: We're not getting into maxing. ⁓ yeah, you've ⁓ spent your years around building up the the culture in the community since since Rev closed, it seems like, or even during that time. So today I think this conversation's gonna really be about that that culture, the nostalgia, and you know, giving that Things that come with that. Like th one of the main themes of the podcast is the journey and ⁓ confidence. And I really want to hit on like how skating gives people confidence, how it teaches people grit and like determination. ⁓ and also like fashion that you and I d ⁓ explored very thoroughly the years through the skate scene and how we felt confident in how we looked because of it. So so how far back do we actually go at this point? Like how did you get involved at rev? speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. So I started skateboarding, ⁓ kinda right around that like Y two K time, you know, early two thousands. ⁓ I had some older cousins that were into skateboarding. My older brother and I kinda jumped into it at the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was you know, that that time was like, you know, it it speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: I don't think it can ever be recreated, right? It was such a powerful time in skateboarding because if you think about it, like, you know, there was five professional skateboarders who had prime time MTV television shows at that time, right? It was everywhere. Whether you were a skateboarder or not, you loved skateboard culture. Think about it. Yes, it's it's wild. Yeah. It's wild, just like how how popular it was, right? And I would say actually, you know, my my roots in skateboarding started a little bit before like it really boomed. ⁓ speaker-0: Think about that. speaker-1: And that was more like in the time that I started working for the shop and stuff. So for me, you know, growing up just a little, you know, skate rack kid. and you know, the shop and this is the really cool role that, you know, skate shops and surf shops play in their local community, like it really is the hub, right? Like especially at that point where, you know, you didn't have access to the internet like we do today. No. You didn't know what was going on. speaker-0: barely had a skate ⁓ park. I mean I remember that thing opened. Like we we were hitting curbs on the road and getting kicked out of different areas because we weren't supposed to be there. speaker-2: You you you guys actually created a whole new industry of sign making that says no s skateboarding allowed. speaker-1: Yeah, that is true. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, yeah. Somebody definitely made money. speaker-2: But then Street Parks happened. Yep. speaker-1: Well and a it's actually kinda crazy when you think about like how much skateboarding has event ⁓ just shaped like architecture, right? Like if you go to like most downtown areas and stuff, you'll see like notches cut out of every ledge that you go to. You'll have, you know, like railings end off in a purposeful way that they can't be skateboarded on. Like it really has impacted so much greater than the actual like activity, you know, that it is. speaker-0: I mean architects have skateboarding to thank for for for all of that. speaker-2: That's super interesting. So architects and designers are like, okay, now we have to put this through like the ⁓ skateboarding and rollerblading filter like. speaker-1: Really do. speaker-0: Remember when they first started putting the brakes on those metal like pins that they would put in it? And we would just knock ⁓ off. Wow. Absolutely. speaker-1: Absolutely. Or like railings would have gaps in between them and then all sorts of different ways. They would try to do it. speaker-0: Yeah, but then they put the gaps in the rails and then we realized we could jump the gap. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: And it was more cool if you went over the knobs that they put up there. ⁓ speaker-0: ⁓ did you always know you were gonna stay connected to this world somehow, like in your professional career? speaker-1: No, absolutely not. ⁓ I actually was completely out of it. Yeah. ⁓ for a season of life. speaker-0: I think you and I both kind of left Sheboygan around the same time. speaker-1: Yeah, yep, yep. I left for a little while, moved to Madison, ⁓ you know, did some schooling there at the tech school in Madison and then after that kinda had a season of a lot of traveling going around, started ⁓ a small skateboard company called Amity, ⁓ with two of with my brother and my good friend Ben. ⁓ did that, kinda grew it, ⁓ got a lot of cool opportunities to travel and film and get to know each other. No, nope, nope, we collapsed that gosh maybe like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen time frame. Yeah, the cool part about that was speaker-0: I remember it. Yeah. speaker-1: Actually ended on really cool notes. ⁓ we all kind of realized like 'cause it was working. Right. It was it was growing. There was popularity, it was doing that. And me and my two business partners kind of decided like, do we actually want to take this serious or do we just want to, you know, kinda let it be what it was? And it kind of got to that point, you know, a little bit of a crossroads where we had to make that choice. Like, hey, we're either gonna do this for real and take it serious, or we're gonna let it be a great memory that shaped us for those years and and let it be what it was. speaker-0: Being aware of your capacity is super important. You can overstretch yourselves so easily. speaker-1: Yeah, we're gonna we were all getting married and you know, in the process of starting families and having kids and all that. So it also just made a lot of sense there. But no, I I left ⁓ I kinda left skateboarding and surfing and snowboarding and everything. ⁓ around the time that I got married, but also I was just it was it was taking too much priority in my mind and my you know, in my life and it just ⁓ got to a point where it just kinda became an unhealthy obsession. Yeah. And so I really stepped away from it completely and got into working in youth development. ⁓ so I just speaker-0: I can see that. speaker-1: had a real passion for, you know, working with kids, especially kids that struggle in the areas I did, you know, in those teenage years. and my first role was ⁓ through Sheboygan County Health and Human Services. I worked as a therapeutic mentor with boys like getting out of juvenile detention, helping to be able to get them on the right path. speaker-0: Right on. Is that when you helped get the skate park rebuilt too? Is that around that same time? speaker-1: So that would have been, I think it was twenty sixteen. ⁓ so yeah, it was it was in that same, you know, kind of time frame. And that was ⁓ I mean, even when the skate park where we were getting it built and like I mean, because that was a pretty long process. ⁓ you know, years of of back and forth and stuff. And ⁓ huge shout out to Joe Curlin ⁓ for that one. Joe Curlin, he just retired, congratulations, Joe. ⁓ he was our park superintendent and he like almost single-handedly is the reason we have that new skate park. speaker-0: Really nice park. speaker-1: It is, it is. And he like he advocated strong for the skate community. When he came into the job, he realized that we had to tear down the old skate park. Yeah. Because of the liability that it was. ⁓ speaker-0: My gosh. It was rickety, it was metal, you burned yourself all the time on it, like speaker-1: Yeah, but also it formed us as humans. You learn to land your tricks or you were going to the hospital. speaker-0: Same reason Midwest skiers are and snowboarders usually don't fall as often because it hurts like hell. speaker-2: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm a much, much better snowboarder than I am a skateboarder. So I I remember getting my first skateboard. It was the Porn Star brand. speaker-1: ⁓ you're talking about ⁓ hookups. ⁓ the you're saying skateboard? Yeah, probably the hookups speaker-2: Yeah, it was like on the bottom. Yep, yep, that was the thing. And like I got everything from from Rev. I got everything. My my friend put it together. We go out on the street and everything, and I start doing this thing, all of a sudden, whoop, right on my ass. And guess where that skateboard left. I don't. ⁓ So yeah, we that will be funny. But yes, much better snowboarder. speaker-1: Hopefully you still have it. speaker-0: We're gonna have to get John a skateboard. ⁓ I wanna I wanna hit hard on like this era that molded us, like because you know w you and I were like in middle school, elementary school, kind of high school, when the era was like really at its peak. We also start got to see it like fizzle out in a way when the fall of like the the mall shopping experience happened. Yeah. ⁓ we worked at the Memorial Mall in Sheboygan and ⁓ Like I I like I think back on that time a lot and like it really created an alternative culture. Like people went there to hang out. They went to Rev to hang out and talk to the people at the store and maybe buy a belt. You know, it it was it wasn't about like finding the perfect item, it was about the experience going there. Would you agree? speaker-1: completely. Yeah. I mean and and that's the cool part. Like kind where my journey started with it is I that was me, right? I was a person going in there. Yeah. You know, and and Mike will tell you and he loves to tell the story of how I was just the most annoying kid that he's ever met. And that was why he knew he had to hire me because I I was able to talk to people. Right. And he's like, You annoyed the daylights out of me you know how to sell and you know how to talk to people. That's awesome. ⁓ and even to this day Mike's one of my best friends. We own houses across the street. We drink coffee most mornings together. Like he's speaker-0: Ha ha. speaker-1: So, you're speaker-0: I've yeah, I've met Mike a ton of times. ⁓ first time I met him was ⁓ my my buddy's brother Neil Graham was a sponsored Rev skater, which was like the coolest thing that could happen in Showboy again. To get discounts on your skate deck. And we went I was with Neil and we went in and bought a deck, and that's when I met Mike and he scared me because he's he's stern looking. speaker-2: Why? speaker-1: Well so you know the you know the like the y the later years very gentle, loving, kind Mike. The earlier Mike was more origin. Okay. In a loving way. speaker-2: The kind of speaker-0: Well speaker-2: Okay. speaker-0: Like, but he was like the guy who owned all the skateboards. And I didn't skateboard, I was so bad at it that I just stuck with inline skates. It's the only thing I could do. And but I hung out with skateboarders. And I think I remember you pointing out this one day. Like ⁓ we you and I went to Sunburst just to hit the hit the park and We were with guys I hadn't met before and they all assumed I was a snowboarder because I was dressed like a snowboarder. Cause they skiers look Yeah, skiers were like the uptight guys and I had I was I was hanging out with snowboarders the entire time. That alternative culture is like such an iconic moment in life because you look at like nowadays, everything's documented online. All of our documentation is on the digital camera that's sitting in a junk drawer somewhere. Or on old ⁓ high eight camcorders. Like that's that's where it is. It does not exist in the digital world really, other than like watching old episodes of Viva La Bam and remembering like what you were w like do you do you like like feel that like what I'm saying? speaker-1: I actually feel bad for kids skateboarding nowadays because they don't get that same like nostalgia like excitement around something, right? And and part of it is the oversaturation of content. Sure. So it's like once upon a time, you know, like you waited for either the Thrasher magazine to come out, the Trans World magazine, or for the four one one video magazine to come out to see who was progressing in skateboarding or or for a company to put out their like video every two to five years, right? Yes. To see like what what barriers have been taken, like what what areas, you know, are speaker-0: X games to happen and be have the opportunity to watch it on ⁓ on T V live because you weren't gonna get a replay. speaker-1: Yeah. Whereas nowadays, I mean, with Instagram and other social media platforms, it's like immediately kids are seeing what every person in the world is doing and how they're progressing so quickly and Yeah. Well that's because they never look up from their phone. speaker-2: Almost immediately. speaker-0: Okay, speaker-2: The the the rate at how how quickly we can share information too, right? Like over the last twenty years is just you know, like it's wild. And that resurgence or that surge right of that culture back then that you guys are talking about, the skateboarding and whatever, right? Like you know, think about all the influence too that happened there too that really helped because that community in the eighties was kind of like kind of frowned upon. Right? But then it was like, No, this is culture. This is speaker-0: The pro skater game changed every speaker-2: Absolutely. I mean dare I say his name? speaker-1: Tony Hawk. Tony Hawk There you go. But beyond actually so I would I would push back even a little bit further that actually the first professional skateboard to like really hit mainstream media and like super stardom. Yeah. Because actually his name was Christian Hasoy. And Christian Hasoy, ⁓ him and Tony Hawk were like way way Tony Hawk was like highly competitive, right? Like the two of them battled it out. Tony Hawk was like the nerdy technical like dad ran the ASA or whatever the skateboard contest was like very straight edge, like well put together. Christian Hasoy was a rock star. Yes. Right? So he was out, you know, like by fourteen years old in VIP rooms at, you know, clubs across Hollywood and like on on covers of magazines and stuff, 'cause he was that like bad boy skater that crossed over into pop culture. speaker-0: I think that shows a diversity in that culture that we grew up with too. Like you could be the suburban, like ⁓ middle class kid like y I was. I don't know if you describe your upbringing that way, but like and you could still like feel confident and cool in your ⁓ you know, your gnomis s snowboard pants or in your, you know, your baggy jeans and your like the DC shoes were way too big. Like I think we all need to just speaker-2: Well but guys like me with like wide feet, like was very speaker-0: Like we I gained like a new like level of confidence from that and but it but it wasn't just for me, it was for anyone. Like yeah. speaker-2: Well there was more relatable ground though too, right? Like you guys probably like the same music, right? And then like you also maybe you were a better skateboarder and you liked skateboarding No but like there was there was music that played a huge role. speaker-0: But like I remember like he like came out he's like, dude, you gotta check out this song. It goes so good on a skateboard video. And I thought it would be like some like thrasher metal song. And it like just this groovy thing. I was like, I would have never thought of this, but that's the thing. Like I don't know why that memory stands out in my head so much. Like we were sitting with some friends on a couch and you were like, This would be a great song for escape video. I'm like, Really? And then like I like heard it more and I could feel it. speaker-1: You always like the like have your heavier music That's too dancing. ⁓ speaker-0: Loved it. But if we have mutual friends, we're all into it too, you know? speaker-1: So what what is what is really interesting about skateboarding, right, is and I think that part of this it goes to the confidence you're talking about, Elliot, right? That skateboarding, you know, especially at its core and its introduction, it was very much of a I don't care what is happening in the rest of the world, skate or die. Like I'm gonna do what I like, what I am into, and and I don't care what anyone else cares about it, right? And that that's something that's actually I think been lost in the skateboard community world now. And as a dad, as a as a older person now, I think it's good. Actually that that that left. you know, don't come swinging at me people. But I think it's good to have, you know, diversity in your life, to have different things that you're into, different interests and stuff. Like that wasn't the skateboarding that we grew up. speaker-2: A lot of good stuff there, guys, but like what made that scene so special back then than how it is today? speaker-0: I don't know about what it is today, maybe you can speak on that a little bit, but I think it taught us grit in a completely different way, 'cause you sat there doing the same trick over and over and over and over, trying to land it once. And effort with just determination and be willing to fail over and over. Is it still that way today or are kids trying to move on to new tricks every constantly? speaker-1: No, I mean it is exactly that, right? It it draws a certain type of individual that is okay with the battle being ninety nine percent failure for one percent success, right? Like it's true, like when you're trying to progress in skateboarding and stuff, one skateboarding inline skates, BMX, whatever it is, any action sports, right? The big thing is it's gonna weed out people really quickly, right? 'Cause if you're someone who wants to be a superstar or wants to be looked at really positively or be really good, not going to, right? Like skateboarding is not fun for anybody in the beginning because you suck it, it's embarrassing. speaker-0: That's why I didn't get into it. Like I was more confident on a different speaker-1: Ha ha Short lived. You know, and that's the thing, is like it is a certain individual, because that doesn't change, right? Like as you're, you know, twenty six and eight years into skateboarding, right? Like now I'm trying to relearn things I learned when I fifteen, right? And like trying to get get stuff back. But it's not about I mean as as cliche as it sounds, right? It's not about the destination, it's the journey, right? It's it's the process to get to like the thing you're trying to accomplish, right? Yeah. And when you take some of those same principles and you put them into other aspects of life, like your career, like your family, like relationships or anything else, and it's like, hey, I need work really hard and like it's not gonna come right away but every day I'm gonna you know get a little bit closer I'm gonna figure out how to you know critique my body to be able to flip an inadimate object to land this way or you know add another stair to how far I'm gonna jump down right like it's that continuous growth and not expecting like hey I'm gonna get the finish line right away right because that's not the case. Yeah. There's never an end line with it. You're never gonna be a perfect skateboard. You're never going to you know do that. speaker-0: And I think I think what made our time so special is we didn't have the inundation of all of the media out there. Like, like I did, I got a pair of inline skates and I was like, how do I lock these in on a rail to grind it? And I sat there for days trying to figure it out over and over and over, never could get it done. Then I found a magazine where it showed the foot placement. I was like, okay, I have to do that. That's how you figured things out. ⁓ and you had to be. Creative in a pretty specific like you had to be creative in your own way because you had to figure it out on your own. Yeah. Now, and that's that is special for sure. ⁓ the music scene, like the everything revolved around it in so many ways. ⁓ nowadays you can see a lot more, and I would say skateboarding is more creative than ever. I see some of the tricks going on, and it's insane. Like, I wouldn't even have thought to do that with a skateboard or ⁓ inline skaters were like doing these like inverted flips over different jumps and like we wouldn't have thought of doing that. speaker-1: No. Well and I think it's at such a point now too where like there's only so many ways that a board can flip, your body can rotate, and you can do something. So the only way to progress now is like bigger and bigger and faster. speaker-0: Yes. I saw some dude like kick his board up, flip it over his arm, and land it on underneath him. I was like speaker-2: ⁓ Theatrics. speaker-1: What? Yeah, well and that's kind of that like goofy playful stuff, but like also like Chris Jocelyn just tray flipped El Toro, which is like unheard of. Like the fact that like once upon a time like Alleying El Toro like the gnarliest thing, like un unthinkable. You know, and now like guys tray flipping it like, you know, trying this trick for years, I think five years, multiple injuries and recoveries. You know what? Michigan's doing like fourteen forties now. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Stupid. speaker-0: Seven seven twenty was the same thing. ⁓ We watched Tony Hawk on that half pipe for two hours hoping he would land. ⁓ speaker-1: But you know what? Like getting back to like what draws people into those those action sports realms, right? Is I think a lot of times it's the person who's drawn to those is the person that doesn't fit into the mold of most other activities. Yeah. It's it's someone who like maybe didn't find identity in in you know different team sports. They didn't, you know, fit into different clubs and things, and they found, you know, a counterculture that we're not reliant on other people, right? Like that's a really interesting thing. speaker-0: But it isn't because you have a group of friends who are encouraging you and have your back, but you are not relying on them to land a trick. speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. Well in the in in that it's a beautiful thing too, where like if you and I are trying the same trick and you land it, right? It doesn't take any way thing away from me, right? There's not winners and losers. It's only progressing. I mean there's some common currency of like, hey, if I'm trying something, don't do the same thing as me next to me, right? Like maybe l I'll I'll trade flip it, you kick flip it, right? And and we'll both, you know, escape the same thing. But like it's an interesting concept that like speaker-0: And all the jar in here. Yeah. speaker-1: You don't there ha doesn't have to be winners and losers, right? Like the whole, you know, all the ships can rise with the tide, right? And that's a cool thing about a scene and maybe getting back to what you were talking about, like what was special. There was a a longevity in a core of people that found that community, you know, especially around the Moral Mall, around the skate park, around you know, those things where, you know, we were all, you know, growing, progressing in our own channels, but amongst one another at the same time. Right? Like I think that's a beautiful. speaker-2: Yeah, and and then like, you know, when you you find your tribe, kinda like what you said, and you know, you elevate your skills where like you've worked hard, you know, you fail, you fail, you keep getting back up, and then you know, you walk a little taller, you got more confidence, right? And like with all of your youth leadership and development, you know, now kind of bringing it to today, how does that make you feel when you see those those that younger generation? get more confidence because you see them putting in the work and like how do you continue to promote that within that community? speaker-1: Yeah, I I think a big part of that is like, you know, for youth, especially my years in youth development, it's like set your own goals. Make sure like don't look around. Don't care about what other people are doing, right? Like your only goal is to be able to continue to better yourself and continue to grow and set those goals and achieve them and become the person that you know you want to be, right? And that's one of the big things is like it's really hard, you know, in in a lot of organized sports and stuff. And I'm not bashing organized sports. Like I love basketball. I I really enjoy it. Later in life I got into it. Go box. ⁓ goal box. Yes, thank you. no, but like, you know, it's really hard to do when you're like, you know, in organized sports and you have the right, because you're constantly fighting for positions. You're constantly, you know, trying to one up someone else to to progress yourself and stuff, right? And that I think can be good, it's fueling, right? It can be a positive thing for kids, but also like if you're not that, it's really easy to step back and be like, well, I'm not ever gonna be as good as Elliot, right? Like I'm never gonna be as good as Elliot at that, so why even try? speaker-2: I think speaker-0: For my personality, that was one of the things that frustrated me the most about it is because I always wanted to be the best at things. But then I would find these moments where I'm like like I felt relaxed about it too. Like I'm just gonna land the things that I know that I can hit. And it almost helped me mature. Yeah. ⁓ and I found leadership ⁓ through these communities. Like, you know, we worked retail, like we became I don't wanna say figureheads, but we became people people that people would look up to. Like Everyone who wanted to know about the next big game would come to me to talk about it. Or ⁓ when I was in music it was the same thing and now that I'm in dentistry, everyone wants me to look at their teeth. And for you it was it was like moving into this com this community of working with ⁓ the youth and things like that. So like I I just can't like I can't hit I don't know how to hit strong enough on how formative that culture was. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ absolutely. No, I completely agree. And I think it's also this little bit of it too where like you always were kind of I wanna say second rate, but like you were looked down on a little bit, right? Like you what you were doing was not socially acceptable, right? Like by being a skateboard, by doing speaker-2: I was gonna say this the stereotype is that, you know, you were a troublemaker. And but it wasn't like you were picking fights, it was you were you were using your craft and skill and passion where people didn't want you. speaker-1: I think a lot of it. speaker-0: Yeah, I was about to say there was plenty of fun pictures of my fight. speaker-1: But ⁓ speaker-2: But the stereotype was troublemaker. Right? Like no matter what, like where you're skating where you shouldn't have been, or you know, you are ⁓ apparently picking fights. speaker-1: But I no, and I think you're right in the fact that like yes, we didn't fit into the the necessarily the social norms of like what your parents wanted you to be growing up, right? Right. But at the same time, what we learned, you know, in those those formative years was a lot of loyalty, right? A lot of determination and grit. And also I think honestly to look out for one another. Yeah. To care for one another. I think that's why we got ourselves into trouble. Was because like we didn't tolerate other people coming into the thing that we cared about a lot, right? Our home, whether, you know, sorry, the skate park, which was Like our home S kids, you know. And if someone came in there and disrespected or disrespected someone that was, you know, utilizing it, we didn't that that was hard for us. speaker-2: Yeah, they disrespected all of you. speaker-0: That that was you would see I think the like the one like we'll call it ⁓ aggressive argument that I saw that always stuck out to me was some kid just trying to sit there and learn how to ollie and then this like dude who wasn't really part of the skate culture was just ripping on the kid. And there might have been some physical contact from like a much more experienced skater against the dude, like but like there was an embrace of everyone from every level. ⁓ but I think we I wanna move on to some more topics here because we could talk about the impact of this culture. I wanna talk about like carrying culture forward. For me, it was taking over my dad's practice, ⁓ turning like the grit and determination that I learned from that scene, from music, from skating, from retail, and like bringing people confidence through their smile and through a healthy mouth. ⁓ So and and that kind of came from my dad, but for you as Mike. So like what made Mike such an important figure locally at that time? Cause he opened the first skate shop. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well I mean one, he gave us like as skateboarders a home. Yeah. Right. He provided, you know, took away barriers to equipment, to cool events, to access to information, and a lot of us job opportunities, right? Whereas like like you said, like you know, I'm not going to you know, Colestone Creamery's not gonna look at me as a skate punk and be Yeah, I'm gonna invest in that kid, right? Like that that's not what they're looking for. Like, what is my resume like skateboarder, troublemaker, you know, ped speaker-2: Right. speaker-0: Have this has been suspended in six months. speaker-1: Yeah, very crazy. Right? Whereas, you know, Mike really saw, you know, that and saw a lot of the strengths of, you know, us kids. Like I think about like, you know, when I started there, right, thinking about like Steen Graham, Stressricker, Lindsay Gore, like Ben Nietzsche, a lot of those people, right? Like some are speaker-0: People who are listening to this podcast, these are all local guys from that scene. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, you know, some of some of us fit more into I guess social norms than others of us. But like we found so much identity and purpose, like, through that role and through that position. And Mike did such a good job of that. I'd actually like I wish that you could almost do a case study because he could sell that to employers for anything. Mike did what he could, right? But we're we're in retail, right? Literally speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: We literally would do anything for that place to be successful. Like I remember Steen and I at a North South football game went around and handed out shoe coupons to like people in the stands. Like nowadays I'm like that seems really cringy. But we cared that much about like a shop succeeding because it gave us purpose and value, right? Like we loved it and therefore we were willing to do everything to make it succeed. speaker-0: was actually set up in a way that felt kind of homey. It wasn't overcrowded with product and merchandise. It had like this edgy feel to it. There are places to sit and talk with your friends. Like there was thought put into that. And like hearing this from you, like that's I'm thinking about that. Like, ⁓ yeah, I would just go and sit in there and you know try on clothes and hang out with people. Try on shoes. Like I still have a few pairs of shoes. I bought it ref. speaker-2: But like, you know, Mike also knew too that like community is extremely important and a sense of belonging. That's and I and I f have you know, I think we've all had a a feeling or we felt that way, right? And you know, people like Mike kind of ⁓ amplify that energy around like, hey, I understand. Right? Like here's a a community for you to come in. Like you said, I've broken down barrier barriers to the equipment. to the swag, you can look the part, Ellie can show up as a snowboarder, he's hanging out with these guys. You know you know, so it's like, you know, that sense of Elliot was Elliot was posing. No but but sense of belonging. Yeah. Right. speaker-0: What we're looking for is poser. speaker-1: Yeah, but Mike would tell you this. I hope I'm not, you seven I just trained but like Mike could actually relate to that, right? Because Mike wasn't a skateboarder himself. He was in the freestyle BMX world. That was that was where like his upbringing and stuff was. But he saw skateboarding, he's like, that's so cool. Like that's so cool. I want, you know, just speaker-0: He didn't see it all, he knew he'd be a back. speaker-1: Yeah, no, he's big super good snowboarder, good surfer, good wing footer, all that kind of stuff. He was a really good BMX here in the day, but no, he skateboarding is just something that he he loved, you know, the scene of and like the skateboarding, yeah, the culture, because skateboarding did have such a great impact for such a small thing. Like it really did. Like whenever something was cool in the mainstream, skateboarding was past it. Right? Like skateboarding set so many fashion trends, music trends, so many pop culture trends. And then we're like, you guys can have it, we're on to the next thing. speaker-2: And also it was a means of transportation for some folks, right? I mean like some people, you know, they couldn't get a bike and they just w needed to get there quicker and quicker in their two feet and running. So speaker-0: Sure. I mean so many kids, their skateboard was sitting in their their locker at school not because they were gonna go and do tricks after school, it was until they got there. And then that translated into longboarding and all kinds of other areas that we take for granted now. And like like for me, like some people don't realize how much a local culture depends on a few people quietly keeping it alive. speaker-1: Absolutely. speaker-0: and Mike did a really good job of that. You are continuing that to this day. I'm trying to put my own spin on on culture in in dentistry by really trying to jackhammer against the rigidity of of of how people. speaker-2: Dennis just said jackhammer. After meeting he's a dentist. speaker-0: Yeah. We don't use those anymore then. speaker-1: Also really good. speaker-2: Sorry, I had a comment though. speaker-0: But do you think like local culture really does like stand a chance of disappearing without people like intentionally trying to preserve it? speaker-1: ⁓ completely. ⁓ c completely. And that's one of the things that's really cool about, you know, Sheboygan and Sheboygan skateboarding is like it is like I would tell you like especially since those glory days, right? The early two thousands, skateboarding has gone through huge steeps and valleys, right? More valleys than mountains, right? Like it's really it's really seen low points and dips. And what I will say is in terms of like industry worldwide and stuff, Sheboygan has actually fared really well, right? Sheboygan has actually had a pretty strong consistent skateboard scene yeah through the last, you know, fifty years or whatever it's been now. And part of that is because like you said, there there are people that are keeping that flame lit, you know, like kind of the the the night night people, you know, keeping a fan kind of thing, keeping it going. But also on top of that, because we are a small scene, we're a small community, we have a shop and a hub and everything, like we can really steer that ship pretty easily, right? Like for example, I think it was end of twenty twenty three. Right, we saw a huge drop in skateboard usership, right? Where where it was like, you know, probably forty percent of skateboard decks, which is like one of the few ways we can really measure. Yeah, you know, 'cause after skateboards, you break ⁓ you come back and get ⁓ kind thing. We probably sold forty percent of the skateboards that we did the year prior. Right. And I actually unbeknownst to me, I didn't even look at this until it's like we're the end of your numbers. I was like, Whoa, that's like I I had seen like right when I go to skate park, I see less people skateboarding, but it's not a really easy measurable, right? No. Some people don't go to skate park or whatever, you know, all different ways. But what was really cool actually, and and we're just super blessed to have an awesome skate seeing like older guys in the scene who like really care about it and come and volunteer and do free kids, skate camps, shout out Jason Shonati. ⁓ you really have led by example in that area, so coolness to you. ⁓ but and so many others. I mean, I could shout out a million people that are are instrumental. But what we did was when I saw those numbers and it was staggering to me, I called. speaker-0: Nice. speaker-1: You know, together the guys, kind of the ones who influence the scene. And we all met together at February in the shop, right? And we said, Hey, skateboard usership is down. We all care about this. What can we do? And like, why is it first? And like what can we do to like fix it, right? What we had noticed, kind of our takeaway from that meeting, was we have focused so heavily on kids, right? At that point, I think we were doing 12 free kids skate camps in the summer, right? One event for the general population, right? And that was it. So it was like our focus was so much on kids and entry level skateboarding that we have totally neglected, you know, people that were already in skateboarding, like the older, you know, population that wanted a reason to gather and get together and do stuff. Precisely. And that's actually was once we started talking to some people, like, hey, why aren't you skating anymore? The story that we kept hearing was a lot of the people that I did skate with stopped, right? They're having kids, they're focused on their career, they had a bad injury, whatever it was, right? And like I would still love to skate, but I don't know anyone to skate with anymore, right? speaker-0: For people wanted to get back into it too. speaker-1: So what we came out of that meeting with was, hey, let's cut back how many kids kick camps we're doing, right? Let's cut that down in half. And let's instead replace that other half with what we called hot dogs and hammers, which was a free ⁓ event on Friday nights where basically the shop bought a bunch of food, we grilled out at the park, we had music, and we hung out, and it was an easy way for us to whenever I would hear that person I would come in and say like Hey, like I don't have anyone to skate with. It's like show up here and I guarantee you will have people to skate with, you'll meet new friends, you'll you know kiss you, throw some little things and like Elliot, I case you out, we took what was forty percent down, I think we jumped twenty-five percent above like the the year prior. So like it's it's those little tiny things that we can do to to steer the ship of of you know this scene in our community. It's so cool how receptive the scene is too. speaker-0: Yeah. You know, for me, I got out of it. I'd love to do it more. ⁓ I still inline skate, but I only go like cross country now. 'Cause I have to protect my hands. Absolutely. It's it's a completely different like lifestyle where but I still want to be involved. So like an event like that sounds awesome just to somebody who you know, like ⁓ responsibly is if my hands go down the the ⁓ employment ⁓ of eighteen people comes into question. ⁓ like, but I still want to be involved in the scene. And I th it sounds like that's an event that I would really enjoy. speaker-1: Absolutely. Well and it's super fun. We kind of switch it up each time, right? Like sometimes like what we're looking at getting into this year is like, you know, having some music, having bands come and play. Like there's there's so many like I think about back in the day, like when we were teens, right? How many metal shows there were? It was like you could find one at the you the quarry at Kawanis, yeah, or someone's basement, or you know, wherever it was. And there was so much. Like right now the metal scene is actually like rising up again. Multiple of my employees are in bands and stuff. But there's nowhere to do shows. speaker-0: Showed up at the Courier Kawas. speaker-1: And they don't have that like that that person who's like, Yes, I'm willing to put the liability of renting apart for you to do like you know, that kind of thing. speaker-0: I didn't think about the liability. The fact that you just brought that up, I was like, I put on a lot of those shows and I never thought about that a lot. speaker-2: Somebody falling in the the bowl there. No. Yeah. Yeah. People got interviewed. So my my son's band, they did a show there. Just they were like, hey, we're gonna come here. They had a generator and Yeah, in the bowl. It was it was like it was awesome. And that's when I remember talking to to Dr. Elliott and I was just like, dude, you could like sponsor a whole event. Yeah. You know, and like we could promote skateboarding, you could promote local music, you know, and speaker-1: ⁓ is the boy? ⁓ speaker-0: The wall. speaker-2: Like it'd be great. And like you're talking about being a good neighbor in the community, right? And we're always thinking about how can you be a good neighbor? Yeah. Right. speaker-0: Yeah, it's definitely something you and I have talked about a few times. ⁓ yeah, I think I think when you're passionate about things, it makes everything more fun. And y you're you're you seem to be not just passionate about skating, but the impact that skating has on everyone. And you've turned your passion towards a business. Like did you feel like pressure taking over the shop like when that c that opportunity came around? speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, I when Mike first approached me with it, I I was very close door. I was like, absolutely not. Really? Why? That was horrible. ⁓ wasn't a That didn't matter. I was surfing where I was skating at that point anyways. No, it was it was simply I had kind of closed that door in my life. You know, it was really my wife Anna who who was the speaking voice. It's like, hey, why are you being so close-minded about speaker-0: It wasn't a skate shop anymore. Thank you, Hannah. speaker-1: that season, right, was because it I did not see it. Right. Like I I was like, no, like why would I do that? Like, you know, I'm I'm I'm past that. I loved what I did. I was working for boys and girls clubs. I was the director of teen services. Couldn't have spoken highly enough about it. Like I really loved my role there. I thought I would maybe retire from that organization. Right. speaker-2: And I got to see him in action and he was amazing. Still are amazing. speaker-1: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I mean the the team there, like it it checked my boxes, it it, you know, fulfilled my joy, like I really loved it. But the things, you know, Miller was once again outstanding human. You know, he basically gave Han and I, you know, complete open transparency to everything. He said, Take as long as you need, give us full access to the books, keys to the shop, anything to help make our decision. And he was not pushy. He was like, Hey, if this is not what's best for you and your family, don't do it. Yeah. I said, But I think it could be a really cool opportunity for you. And the thing that, you know, some of the points that really pushed us over the edge of of making that step was one, being able to be more malleable, right? Like I love the idea of like, you know, 'cause nowadays I I hardly care at all about the activity of skateboarding. You know, like and and surfing I like a little more, but like for the most part, I love the people. I love the community. I love that aspect of like doing life together and having that, right? And being able to prioritize what matters. Right. And that's where like going from a role, you know, all of my different human services roles. It didn't have that flexibility, right? If you weren't there, like you said, right? You're employing eighteen people. If you're not there, there's a lot of shoulders that you're you've got a lot of mouths you're feeding, a lot of shoulders you're you know, holding up. And so for me it was like, Man, I I want to, you know, follow where the need is and be able to help to meet that need, right? And in a role where that's what you Do every day, it was hard to have the flexibility to be like, hey, like, actually no, this person really needs me right now. I want to come and be there for them, but at the same time, I need to be in this position because I got 28 kids coming to showing up, right? Yeah. So the idea of owning a retail store and doing something that doesn't really matter, right? Like doesn't it doesn't matter, right? Ultimately it doesn't. Was such a freeing thing to be like, if somebody needs me, right, if my friend is down on their luck, or the homeless gentleman outside, you know, needs me or whatever it is. I can lock up the door and be I'll be back in fifteen minutes, I'm gonna take care of this, right? Cause who cares? If someone's mad because they couldn't come in and buy a hat, I'm sorry. I'm gonna do what what is best for my neighbor and you know, love on people over it. But the other part, which I think goes more into what we're talking about, is the ability to raise my children up in the scenes that shaped and formed me so much. Wow. Okay. That was the part that got me so excited because speaker-0: Is that why you brought the skate shop back more heavily? ⁓ speaker-1: Kind of. ⁓ I mean I I don't know, not necessarily. I mean the skate shop is was alive and strong. I mean there's great, you know, carriers of the torch. I Matt Master ran the shop after me and then Kate Tomato after him and Mason Anderson. speaker-0: Now I go in and skating feels like the priority. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, well and that's just kinda my my functional brain. Like my years of my years of boys and girls love and like corporate nonprofit was very much of like function and flow and prioritizing and planning and all that kinda stuff. So like for me it was like I don't wanna if I'm if I'm putting together a skateboard And that's a ten, fifteen minute ordeal. I don't want to be downstairs as people are coming in and out of the shop upstairs, not able to greet them and not able to be right. So for me, function wise, I was like, I need to move this upstairs so that way I can do that, interact with, create that community feel, you know, kind of that bullpen, you know, atmosphere and and not be like, I'm down I'm down here and hope you don't need anything. Yeah. ⁓ speaker-2: And that's like all three of us. We're like a function first individual, right? Like it needs to work first, right? Like and then you think about the design or how it looks like after the fact. speaker-0: Well maybe it became more like that 'cause Mike was more s focused on surfing like you said, and the skateboarding wasn't as as big of a a high point, but speaker-1: And I think that one one big thing too, right, is is the shop is coming out in thirty years. Right? Like it's coming up pretty quickly. speaker-2: Now you have to sponsor an event specifically here in Sheboygan that promotes a skateboard tournament and a concert. speaker-1: There we go. speaker-0: With also orthoda ⁓ orthotic insoles in all of our shoes. speaker-2: Yep. speaker-1: But so you gotta you gotta imagine there were so many different seasons and chapters of the shops, right? So so it was less actually in in in defense of Mike, it was not trying to to lower the position physically or or whatever of skateboarding for surfing. It was actually him trying to honor the integrity of what the shop is and the history of the skate shop. Because the skate shop and the surf shop are separate, right? So it was more like I want to still provide the skate community their own house and haven't separate from the That was the idea of it, right? And for me, it was like, nah, I see how they can all do the same thing, right? But that was a hard thing. Honestly, I wanted to kill one or the other. I wanted to kill when I bought the businesses. I wanted to either kill EOS and have it all be under ref workshop or kill ref workshop and put it all under EOS. And I couldn't do that. speaker-0: Okay, so that was the idea. speaker-1: Right, 'cause they both have their own history, their own sense of life. speaker-2: Yeah, man. They got roots and you can't really and if anything you could you can you've you've found a way to combine them. speaker-1: I try. Yeah, I try. And sometimes it's really confusing to people 'cause they're like, wait, why is that say rev on it but this is EO's and this and that? It's like you just gotta plane in my crazy brain. speaker-2: My response to that? You're asking the wrong question. Exactly. Exactly, dude. Don't tell me how to work. speaker-1: Because it's mine and you can't tell me how to speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, I'm also closing this doors and going somewhere else anyway, it's like speaker-0: ⁓ but owning a business can be like stressful too. Like as I've learned over the last few years, like I mean I'm just speaking for myself. But people see the fun side of creative businesses, but there's still like this pressure and responsibility underneath it and where you feel a responsibility to the skate community, is that correct? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So what do you think is important in staying authentic while still trying to survive financially. H like how do you like tee or taught that? Is it like getting a group of skate guys in the room and saying, Hey, what works and what doesn't? Was that it? Well speaker-1: No, so you know, to be really honest with you, skateboarding is easy. ⁓ skateboarding, like skaters are so loyal and like thank you guys for supporting the shop for as long as you have. Like skateboarders, like they come, they get their shoes, they get their skateboards. They're not gonna like if you break your skateboard, you're not gonna sit and wait for a board to get delivered two days later from online, right? Like you're going to the shop, you're gonna go buy it because you're gonna land speaker-0: It's dark. speaker-1: Yeah. Exactly. So like skateboarding is actually probably the easiest business to be in. Like it's not that lucrative, right? You don't make a lot on it, but it it it turns, right? It works. And like, you know, skateboard selling, it is what it is. Other aspects of the business are a lot more challenging, right? Like, you know, larger ticket items like stamp paddle boards, surfboards, ⁓ operating, ⁓ rental locations and you know staffing multiple different things, insurance, all of our favorite thing, right? I'm sure you deal with that like crazy, but like I went through this whole season, we were opening up D-LAN last year where I had already invested quite a bit and and basically was told that we're not insurable. ⁓ because we're gonna be on Lake Michigan. And I did not sleep for a while because I had multiple insurance companies like calling around like, what can we do here? Like, how can we make it insurable? It was like, there's no way you're gonna make enough in four years to pay for the premium for one. It got nuts. It nuts, and then you know, basically one insurance agent came through and was like basically willing to look at The fact that we had thirty years without an incident, like all or almost thirty years, like and really speaker-2: Okay. speaker-0: Far away from the sh the the shoreline. Like that's crazy. speaker-1: Yeah. Sorry, sorry, we this is our we the D Land Park one because we're we're renting surfboards, stand upward stuff to be used on Lake Ash. So that's the that's the issue. But I I guess to get back to your question though too, like there is a weight that I carry, you know, and I think you know it might carry to many other people because like both scenes, right? The longevity of the skate scene and stuff, as well as like the surf scene and like Sheboygan surfing goes back to the late fifties, right? And ⁓ yeah, no, no, long, long speaker-0: I thought Mike was like kinda the founder of it. It's been going on that speaker-2: Yeah, there there are other individuals locally who we will not name that take a lot of credit for that. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean there's lot of people throughout the years that have surfed in in Sheboygan and and on the Great Lakes. But ⁓ yeah, so that that's the other hard part too is like carrying forth the like kind of torch of the the surf shop in a way that honors and respects them and also holds the integrity of of surfing on the Great Lakes Lakes, that's a big thing, man. Like surfing in Sheboygan is special. Like it really is. Like, you know speaker-0: I've never done it. speaker-1: It's not because the waves are the best. It's not because of, you know, many other things. It is it is there's so many factors as to why it's special special, but you also that can be ruined really easily, right? By by not doing things, you know, appropriately or right and stuff. So that's where like that actually carries probably more weight and keeps me more up at night is like Yeah, yeah, and just handling it well, being a being a good steward to it. You know, like then there's lots of lots of avenues to that, but speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Well we're wanna move on to building community anyway is the topic here, so this seems like the further transition. What role does the communit ⁓ the business play in the community identity we've hit on pretty hard here? Yeah. ⁓ but why would you say local culture matters over like, you know, s global culture? Like why does the why is the local culture so important? speaker-1: Yeah, totally. I mean, from the skateboard side of it, right, a lot of it is just like that is that is your family, that is your tribe, that is your scene, right? So like most of the time actually kids these days don't really care about like professional skateboarders and stuff anymore. They care way more about the local legend, the local hero, like speaker-2: Yeah, absolutely. How do I get up there? speaker-1: Yeah. Well and there was there's always been that but like we used to care a little bit more about like who was the up and comer, right? Nowadays they're like there's so many good skateboarders in the world and there's so much exposure to everyone that like they care way more about like speaker-0: We had like cross names that we cared about back in the day. speaker-1: Yep. Yep. So so that's actually a really cool thing that's happened in skateboarding, but in surfing, ⁓ sorry, refresh the question again. It was how does how does the shop ⁓ impact the community? speaker-0: What role what role does business play in community identity and why does local culture matter? speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think it goes back to what I was saying about like having something special, having something unique. Like what is really cool about the Great Lakes and surfing and just like Sheboygan and surfing is it's stuck in this bubble of the early days of surfing, right? Where surfing, when it all kicked off, it was not about anything more than taking an inadimate object and Finding a way to have fun on something you have no control over that is a wave, right? And it was that activity, that like conquering the the wave, figuring out how you can manipulate manipulate, you know, this surfboard to be able to make it do what you want. Right. And just that like joy in time, right? It's such a it's such a like a connection with nature out there that, you know, is so pure and so fun and enjoyable, right? But then what happened in the surf scene across the globe is It became an industry, it became a business, it became a competition, it became so much of a ⁓ industry, right? That it was no longer about me connecting with nature being out there. It was I need to get good enough that I can get sponsored by Red Bull, that I can win these competitions, that I can do this, you know, all this other stuff, right? Great Lake Surfing, we all suck. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: There are some that are better than others, but for the most part we all suck. And there's not industry on the Great Lakes. And there never will be, right? There's not going to be, you know, a bunch of surf shops and and high school surf teams and all this stuff, right? It is still about activity that is going out and enjoying the activity for what it is, right? And connecting with the people that are out there and being able to enjoy, you know, something that you have no control over, right? And there's a huge sense of gratitude as well because like, you know, surfing in the ocean. speaker-0: That speaker-2: Pure speaker-1: one that's a lot more predictable because you're dealing with, you know, swells and systems that are coming over huge bodies of water that are the oceans, right? Whereas Lake Michigan whereas Lake Michigan or any of the Great Lakes, you may have a ninety minute window where it's working and so it doesn't matter what you have on your schedule. You're dropping what you're doing 'cause you're gonna get up speaker-0: I mean that's that's how one of the coffee shops in town ran their business for a long time was with the Weather Channel and I remember walking in and they would just leave. ⁓ speaker-1: That's weapon in many. speaker-2: Yeah. ⁓ I'd like to actually touch on something just like this is more personal, a little off script, so I apologize. But ⁓ when it comes to this the surfing scene and as a storyteller, right? Like, you know, e in my own backyard, I think I was really disappointed in myself that I didn't kind of run to start documenting that scene earlier. But I did document the surf scene here in Sheboygan for four years. And I called it Project Surf. That's S E R F with another local ⁓ yeah, Matt. Yeah. Yeah. So like Okay. ⁓ this was this was great. And you know, when we talk about how ⁓ being accepted into a culture that, you know, I wasn't actually participating in, but I wanted to help amplify tell the story. ⁓ speaker-0: I did not know about speaker-1: Really, really cool too. Very good job. speaker-0: Good job. speaker-2: And I wanted to do it through a bunch of different lenses because I was passionate about my craft and I also found a way that hey these are these are salt of the earth people, right? Like these are genuine, great people that like I just found myself really connecting with. Obviously Mike Miller was one of ⁓ And like even when I approached this I I went to EOS, I went and talked to my I went and talked to the Godfather. I was like, Hey, kinda have this idea, you know, like speaker-0: Am I allowed to speaker-1: How does it speaker-2: I mean like, you know, sometimes you know like penetrating those penetrating those groups can be kinda hard, but you know, like because no one knows the intent and honestly, my you know, Mike is like had how many people or now you, hey, we want to do a story on this, this and that and then the follow through is done. You know, and and I was like, No man, I'm into it. Like the portraitures that I capture, the activity set, like the storytelling, the camaraderie, like all that stuff. Like I felt it, it was accepting, and I, you know, made some very good lifelong friends like, you know, Grant Davies, right? Like he's been here twice, you know, just to, you know, do some stuff for his son and then a passport photo. I'm like, dude, just come in, I'll do the passport photo for you. But anyways, he is. But like looking through that community through my camera though was something very, very special for me, and I saw it. speaker-1: Great. speaker-2: I saw the love, I saw the tribe, and I saw how accepting it was and everything you're talking about. I'm like, yep, yep, yep, yep. Thank you. speaker-1: Yeah. Well and and actually you you are like the person that everyone would love to be there, right? Because like it is so rare that you get like documented, you know what you're doing. And it's exciting to be able to see like 'cause you don't know, right? Nor do you really care that much about the performance, more about like but it's it's fun to see like, ⁓ wow, like yeah, I did take that turn on the wave. I did, you know, get some air there, like whatever it was. So no, like I mean I know that everyone I I had a great experience working with you on that project and like obviously the outcome is incredible. Like you're incredibly gifted, you know, photographer and storyteller. So speaker-2: Yeah. Thank you. I could be better though. speaker-0: something new about John today. one of the things, one of the big reasons I wanted to get you on here is because you and I, I think are have both put effort in staying true to our younger selves as well as aging and maturing. ⁓ You know, I was I left Sheboygan for nine years, like And you know, I was a a metal kid, I was a musician, the skater, ⁓ just really in ingrained in the, you know, quote unquote al alternative scene here in Sheboygan. But ⁓ then I went to dental school, which is all about ⁓ like pounding the personality out of you. ⁓ everything is done to like really strict standards, ⁓ which it needs to be. Yep. ⁓ 'cause you are working on people's health and then d their mouth and you are in charge of it. But ⁓ it's all it's really y you can really lose your identity in there because you are all like they dress you the same. You're trying to everyone's trying to hit the same standard and caliber and this and that and and our entire day is eaten by studying and by education. And I fought tooth and nail to like keep who I was. I would all like blast metal music in my headphones at all times. I tried to go to local shows whenever I could. ⁓ I you know, rather than hang out at the bars, I hung out at the pinball clubs. Like I was doing different things to just try to stay still be me because I knew sooner or later I'd end up in back in my community and people would expect to still find Elliot. Yep. And did you find pressure in that at all? Like like do you feel like you stayed authentic to yourself? speaker-1: I mean now it's really easy. Yeah. Like in my role at the shop because I literally ⁓ speaker-0: This is me. You're no longer Andrew, your Jake is a head. speaker-1: But I would say I would say that in my years of youth development, right, in more professional roles. Yeah, well and and it was kind of funny because I always kept a skateboard in my office. ⁓ and I I was the bad guy, right? I had to be. I was the disciplinary. I was the final line of yeah, I was the final line speaker-0: I guess you get to see it in kids all the time, like Here's the skateboard for this. speaker-1: No, no. And and honestly, man, because you and both of you probably know like the fun loving Andrew, like I could be mean. I I might hold down discipline when it came to keeping a safe environment. speaker-2: Very black and white with what's right and what's wrong. Yeah. Like in expectation. Yeah, you're you know, focusing on being good human. Right. Especially in that role. speaker-1: Well and keeping people's kids safe. Sure. And and you know, that that's the big part. But yeah, I would always I always keep skateboard in there and and ⁓ my good friend Bailey who who worked with me speaker-2: For sure. speaker-0: To yourself. speaker-1: For almost six years there, she was like my my number two, the site coordinator. And every couple of months I'd be I'd boss out the skateboard, I just make I can sell kickflip because you know this is yours I won't skateboard at all. And I would sometimes wipe out really hard and and she would always laugh because she'd be like, You don't skateboard anymore. And her husband was like one of the best skateboarders to ever come out of the state of Wisconsin, Matthew Master. Love you, Maddie. Okay. speaker-2: Likewise, I love that guy. speaker-1: Both of them, they're just great people. Maybe see speaker-2: Bailey met her great. I know it I I again I don't want to digress too much, but I I had a little thing with Matt, you know, last year. No, no, no, not like that. No, but what was funny is like so met him through the Project Surf thing, right? I photographed him and then like he had me photograph his n proposal to Bailey. speaker-1: Really? speaker-2: You know, and then I worked with him on his entrepreneurial side with, you know, the keychains that he made out of rus ⁓ recycled skateboards, which was really cool. And that kind of like fostered his like ⁓ CNC machining thing and like programming. You know, and then as he ⁓ went more on in his journey, now he's, you know, like a financial advisor guy or whatever. Sorry, Matt, it's something like that. You know, but like no, but it's like so I actually ended up doing this post. about how like I had been photographing him telling his story for like years and I put this thing on on Instagram where it talked about like my experience with him and how we collaborated and that never would have happened if I that one day was like, Hey man, can I take your photo real quick? speaker-1: And it's so right. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. So cool. I do, I think, you know, going back to what we were talking about, Elliot, like there there is something about someone who is raised in these countercultural scenes that gives them a level of grit and tenacity and kind of like you know integrity to like you know really build, you know, build their life to what they want it to be. speaker-0: Not about be staying young forever, though the I sell that too in Botox. speaker-2: Facial maintenance. speaker-0: But it's not about staying young forever. It's it's like staying connected to what made you actually feel alive. And skateboarding, ⁓ that culture, ⁓ the people, all of that was super important. Yeah. speaker-1: I will say like, you know, in those years of youth development, one of the things that like really helped me to kinda stay alive is like being able to see my former self in the kids that maybe speaker-0: I saw that a lot in martial arts when I teach kids and I see the kid with the A D D or his klutzy and like like I don't want to brag, but like martial arts was the only thing that ever came naturally to me, like purely and simply. Like I I was a small kid, but I was not afraid of anyone. I would get in the ring with anyone that I could. It's all point sparring, like not looking to kick anyone's ass, but like that I went to the skate park for that. ⁓ my god. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: We've got both circles. speaker-0: ⁓ but I when I see a kid who's definitely struggling at home or in a social way that in the same way that I did, being like growing up in in like a kind of sheltered religious community where I the people that I hung out with were s in that community and there was nothing wrong with it. It just like I got to public school and I was a huge dork and I didn't know how to handle it. I'm watching the same thing that other kids deal with too and I'm like, man, like nothing changes in a lot of ways. Like culture and like like society can change, but how a kid like ages, I think that's valuable. speaker-1: ⁓ hugely. Hugely. I think that like, you know, that was almost a a strength or a superpower it gave me was to like not write off those kids that sometimes, you know, may f slip through the cracks at public school or may slip through the different areas and like those are the kids that like my heart went out to the most. Like the kid who is acting out because of like what is the reason they're acting out? Right. What need is not being met and their home and their life, like what are they going through like and being willing to, you know, walk through the muddy water with them and like help them. Like I always believed like every single kid is one supportive adult way. For me is a success story. That's all. speaker-2: I I totally agree and and and my version of that is meeting people where they are. You know, like you you and when you've walked that path and you're like, Man, I've walked this I'm on this journey and I gotta meet them where they are instead of you coming in to like, No, you gotta do this and if you meet them where they are and you can speak their language and you know, y it's like there's a breakthrough moment with that mentality, but if you come in and you know, you're trying to be like, Here's how you need to live your life it's speaker-1: So speaker-0: No, And I'm like, that's the same thing. This is the way I treat dentistry too. Like if I get somebody in the chair, they're not taking care of their teeth. Like, look, I can harp on you all I want. ⁓ and I don't want to harp on you at all. ⁓ like this is you know what you need to do, you know what you're not doing. What flossing. Yeah, yeah, it's usually glossing. But you'd be surprised how many people just don't brush their teeth. speaker-1: You lost it. That's okay. speaker-2: Every time I I I go to Taylor Drive Dental Care and I get asked the same question and usually Angie is my hygienist and does an amazing job and she's like flossing and I'm like, you know, I'm not gonna lie to you as needed. You know, but like but this one's great. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: So every day. ⁓ speaker-2: As a needed by my own opinion. But what's right in no but but to to Dr. Elliot's point is like, you know, to go there and like be judged that doesn't happen. They're like, Well, we all know you should be doing that, but hey, you know, like we can't do it for you. speaker-0: Yeah, and I will still be here when you get cavities because you're not doing it. Or you end up yeah, yeah. Well I'll make more money. But I will be here to fix it when you need to. Or if you want to pivot in your life and you need help, I'm here for you at that point too. Yeah. ⁓ I have you know, I've had patients who've like definitely going through some sort of like mental health crisis and things fall apart and like speaker-2: Supporting you try to support you, man. speaker-0: I've seen people turn their lives around because you just gave ⁓ the the chance and made them feel like they had someone to talk to. speaker-1: One of the things I love about the season of life for having the shop, like so many people like the just like me we've been able to build, like people that come through the doors that like they're not there to buy anything. They just need someone who's gonna ask them how they're doing and like chat. And like I've been becoming really close friends with a lot of the the unhomed population that you know reside around our shop. And like they are teaching me so much. Like I am learning so much and like it's it's been really humble. speaker-0: The population's a lot bigger unfortunately than it was when we were kids. Yeah, like has that like that's it ⁓ that's something I hadn't thought about. Has that impacted business? But it's obviously impacted how you're seeing life. speaker-1: ⁓ definitely. ⁓ yeah, I would say that there are there are certain businesses and individuals who would say that it has a negative you know impact on the the business of the downtown area. speaker-0: I mean in in no way is it an ideal situation. No. speaker-1: For they don't see it as an ideal situation, obviously, right? speaker-0: Absolutely. That's what I'm saying. speaker-1: You know, for someone for someone in in my mindset where it's like I'm looking beyond like our business, but it's instead as our community as a whole. Like these are members of our community. These are people that are down their luck. Like man, I had years where I lived in Madison where I was, you know, on food stamps, I was living in sectionary housing, I was, you know, didn't have a dollar in my name. Like I drove back to Sheboygan with nothing but my truck, my skateboard, and what, like three pairs of clothes or something. I lost everything. Right. And like that so like I I can empathize with that situation, right? Like I haven't speaker-2: I can empathize with you, man. I was in that same situation when, you know, I was working manufacturing and I learned I had a skill that nobody wanted. You know, polishing faucets wasn't something that I could market. So going back and getting retrained and, you know, really embracing like that, you know, you need a skill that you can take with you wherever you need to go. You know, like that's important. But having those programs there to help you get through that, you know, it's just the goal is to not stay on them. Yeah. You know, like gotta push yourself. speaker-1: Totally. Absolutely. But like I think about like your situation, Elliot, right? Where like you are you are a dentist, you are in dentistry. Yeah. You could the the experience of someone walking through your door can be completely Different, right? Like you taking that extra step of one making them feel comfortable, to creating an environment where like they feel welcome, safe and comfortable, like that is everything, right? Like and I think each one of us who hold roles in the community that hold establishments, like if we're all putting our best foot forward to make every person feel welcomed and involved, like sure, we're gonna create the community that we want. speaker-0: Yeah. And people come to me and they're going to feel vulnerable. It is a like working in your mouth is a a very vulnerable feeling. I've had mental work done. Like I can empathize. And But it's like doing everything you can to just make people feel more comfortable. Like it's not just about getting them numb and everything else. Like like we rather than have your your waiting room laid out with a bunch of like just stereotypical like waiting room chairs, get rid of them, put couches in, put like like make people feel more comfortable, put tiny houses on the TV, do something different. And then when they get to the room, like, Hey, do you wanna chit chat with me back and forth or would you rather put net noise canceling headphones on and jam out. Like like and I think the reason that I was like kind of able to highlight those things because like at a really like high level that makes sense. Like, ⁓ obviously that's what you want to do from like the psychological standpoint of making people feel comfortable. Yeah. But it just felt more authentic to me because I I went to dental school so much later than most people did. I had a really like strong self-identity at the time and I didn't lose that and I've I've brought that back. speaker-1: Yeah. No, and from what I can see, you you're doing an incredible job of it. Like it's funny that someone actually spoke on this on this podcast, but with HIPAA, I'm not gonna say anything. But mentioned to me how great of an experience they have with you. Like and he's like, cool, and he has arm tattoos. I've known Elliot for a long time. You know speaker-0: Predating the arm test who you are. speaker-2: But that's ⁓ you know, but that from a dentistry standpoint, right? Like there's a there's a stereotype, yeah, right? It's it's har it's hard to, right? Yeah. And I think that's what's so great about Dr. Elliott is that he's so relatable, you know, and he's you know no, you are. You're relatable and you're not afraid to show who you are. Like we said, like you got tattoos, you've been on a billboard with tattoos, and has there been anything negative about it? Absolutely. speaker-1: I can't relate with that. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean not isn't the business. I mean we we maybe it's a filter of keeping people out who would be judgy, you know? yeah, they can there's other dentists who who can help them. Absolutely ⁓ speaker-2: No, they're not for you. speaker-1: That's okay. speaker-2: Okay. I mean what is there, sixty five thousand people here and they're Okay, almost a hundred thousand in this community, and you have X amount of people that you could serve daily, even if you were packed, and it doesn't even come close. speaker-0: No, no. speaker-1: I think that that's such an interesting thing. Sometimes people think that they need to be everything for every speaker-0: No, that was one thing I abandoned. That was like I think I've said this before, ⁓ but it's like my message to anyone who getting into dentistry or getting into a new field is that you do not need to please every single person. Right. It is okay. And that was like the message that I came in with was, ⁓ we are n I I don't need to be the dentist or everyone. If they don't want there are certain things that I'm not gonna compromise on and i if they don't like it, there's somewhere else they can go. Like if you come in and you're demanding what the treatment should look like and it doesn't fit your physiological ⁓ condition. Yep. Sorry, I can't do anything. I'm not gonna commit fraud. I'm not gonna ethic like I'm not gonna go past my ethical standpoint. Absolutely. ⁓ but there might be someone out there who who's willing to flux a little bit. So speaker-1: Well and I think that like, you know, it it it can be a dangerous right because you can't decide who you are the dentist for, right? But you can be so transparent of who you are, where you stand, your ethics, your guidelines and stuff, that it's naturally gonna weed out those who don't fall in that, right? And like that that is okay. Like that is okay. speaker-0: And watching my staff like flow into that too and working with people that I'd love to work with. Like they're not like no one's identical to me. No one lives their life identical to how I do, but we all get along. Yeah. And we all respect that individuality. So all right, I wanna wrap it up. I think like I think that what we really like really hit on really good, like is wrapped up really nicely in this line that there's just something really powerful about building your life somewhere where people actually know. speaker-1: That's really good, man. speaker-0: It's like really fun. ⁓ and I love it. So speaker-1: It's been like that's been my family's intention, I should really say my wife Diana. our intention has been to shrink our world. Right. And so like we have what we call kind of like our missions field, right? Which is basically south of North Avenue, ⁓ north of Indiana, and then basically ninth street to the lake. And our goal is let's try to do as much as we can in that area so that we get to know that community. Like we go, we shop at slow food market, we shop at nature's best as much as we possibly can, like for all of our needs. We support the Weather Center and the Paradigm and you know all of Stefano's incredible establishments. Like because we want to one invest in those, you know, that are in our neighborhood. But then also like we have how many businesses and stuff in that area. Our son goes to preschool at the art center. We both work in those ones like and that's like Man, it's so cool when you can shrink your world, it becomes more enjoyable. You enjoy the people that you see. You get to build deeper roots and build those interactions and like so I couldn't agree with what you said more. speaker-0: Yeah. All right. Well, I appreciate you coming on the Death Before DeFread podcast. ⁓ it was a blast. I like one of the things I really wanted to hit on one of these early episodes is getting somebody in the entrepreneurial field ⁓ that ⁓ knew me well and I knew them well and this was a blast. ⁓ do you have any like ⁓ social media accounts or anything like that that you wanna push people check out the shop, anything like that? speaker-1: Yeah, so on Instagram, ⁓ the surf shop surf side of things is eosurf ⁓ dot com. Or sorry, at EOSurf. There's also Eosurf.com is like our our website and stuff, and then the skate side of stuff is at Rev Board Shop. I also would encourage you if you're interested in learning more about Sheboygan surfing, kind of history of it, what makes it special, all those things, check out hometown hype sheboygan ⁓ on YouTube. ⁓ and it is ⁓ the the publication is the inertia. It was a really cool project we were part of this last year. We can really kinda talk about what makes this community that we have so special. Yeah. speaker-2: I'd like to just touch on it real quick. I know we're wrapping up, but ⁓ so he co-led a production with another local videographer who's fantastic. Cole Sheldon? Yeah, Cole Sheldon. And they put together just an amazing documentary style around the surf scene here in Sheboygan and interviewed local legends. It's great. Definitely check it out. speaker-0: Right, this again this has been the Death Before Decay podcast. ⁓ we will have another episode out in two weeks on a Thursday, but I hope you enjoyed this one and I hope you all have a fantastic day. Thank you. speaker-1: Thank you.