Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / The Sidekick Gets Her Moment | A MidSummer Enneagram Journey with the Other Bennett Sister

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The Sidekick Gets Her Moment | A MidSummer Enneagram Journey with the Other Bennett Sister · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:09
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for Real Life.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, that Christ is the transformation.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: So, for my friend listening, you need to know that this must be an important conversation.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: You think this is a fun midsummer detour, but in fact, this detour we are now taking twice because it's so good and so important.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: So, and I think I need to give this little preface here.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: Today for this detour, yes, we're having fun, but there are actually some nuggets of wisdom that are absolute gold.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: Please pay attention to because I know they're gonna shine through, but also I want you to anticipate it.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: And it's not just lighthearted, not just entertaining, but we we're gonna dive deep and we're gonna have fun.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: So, real quick to let you know what this conversation is all about.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: If you didn't know about it, there is a new book and a new miniseries that is called The Other Bennett Sister.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: This other Bennett Sister is from the legendary Jane Austen novel Pride and Prejudice.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: The wonderful guests that we have today are my daughter, Paige Wicks, and my sister, Annalise Hinkin, who both are fellow book nerds.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: I think there's a fancier term for us, but fellow book nerds.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean bookworm, right?
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Or I'm fine with embracing the word nerd.
2:13
SPEAKER_02: Yes, me too.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: Very comfortable with it.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: So fellow book nerds, and we have a love for British literature, British story era, BBC TV.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: Brit box is actually what is uh sharing these this delightful miniseries.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: So today we're gonna talk about the beautiful characters of the Other Bennett Sister, which also align with Pride and Prejudice.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: The Other Bennett Sister was not written by Jane Austen, to be clear.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: There will be inadvertently, some spoilers will be happening.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: It's not intentionally, we're not trying to ruin it for you, but this is gonna just be part of the conversation.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: We're not gonna hold back.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: We might circumvent giving the full story just by way of entertainment.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: So you have to go watch it or you have to go read the book, which I highly recommend.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: And again, I am very picky about books, so just know that I am loving this book.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: I am giving it as a gift, I am encouraging others to read it because I do think it's wonderful and delightful.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: So with that, Paige and Annalise, thanks for joining me again for this conversation.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having us.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so first of all, we're gonna talk about Mary.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: Mary has such a sidekick, wallflower, just this really very muted role in the original Pride and Prejudice.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: But this book she gets to shine.
3:39
SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna just start off right away.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna count to three.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna have you both tell me what Enneagram type you think Mary is.
3:47
SPEAKER_02: One, two, three.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: Enneagram five.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: Yes, Enneagram five.
3:55
SPEAKER_02: I think that's why I was so drawn to the story because the Enneagram five got to have their moment.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: They were the shining heroine of the story.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: They were the main character.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: Really refreshing.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: It was refreshing.
4:10
SPEAKER_02: It felt a little bit different than the norm.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna talk more about that.
4:15
SPEAKER_02: But tell me a little bit of your experience.
4:17
SPEAKER_02: What things made you feel like, oh yeah, she leads as a five.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: That's her worldview.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: That's the lens she's looking through that covers her inner motivation and inner worldview.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: I think the first thing that struck me was her love and deep desire to know more about the world, about all the things, geologies.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: I think she mentions is one of her favorite things to learn about.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: But that was like the first striking thing was her love and appreciation for knowledge and her constant chase for it.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: And then, I mean, there's you guys will also cover it, but there's a lot of other things, just her more, I don't know, gentler, but also more quieter personality, not super assertive, and is more of in her like in her head.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: Because you definitely have her narrating some of the story out, but it's not part of the scene, but it's her inner monologue.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: So I think that was the first thing that like really stuck out to me about her type.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I loved how the author chose, and it's Janice Hadlow, the author of The Other Bennett Sister.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: I loved how she picked up right in kind of the midst of the Pride and Prejudice story that we all know and love.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: I should say a certain section of people I know all know and love.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: I think everyone should know and love.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: But just of how, um, and even the director, how it was filmed, just kind of through her lenses.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: It was a really fascinating thing of how she seems to perceive the world and others, how she's always constantly trying to figure it out and solve it, and not necessarily always understanding the emotional component of things that she was constantly trying to solve it with her her head and and trying to help, but also not understanding and that withdrawing, you know, Paige, as you said, of just like trying to go internally of into herself.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: And um, I think that's where, especially I think with all the sisters, the Bennett sisters being so strong, it just seemed to almost like a compass just kind of point to like, oh, Mary, five.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: Like it just it felt like it fit in that dynamic and how she related to the rest of her family, her mom, her dad, and just in certain social situations that the author so brilliantly pieced well with Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, and then continuing on into the story was fantastic.
6:45
SPEAKER_02: It really was.
6:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay, Annalise, give us a little insight because for you, you have been a part of many theater productions of Pride and Prejudice, many runs of it, we'll say.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: From your perspective, not only obviously the tie-in that was done well, but also did you ever see this coming about?
7:08
SPEAKER_02: Because now that I see a story about the other Bennett sister, I'm like, brilliant, of course.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: Kind of what stood out to you is having been so intimately a part of the story and now this version.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's funny because as a cast, we've, you know, we always talk about kind of like a little bit more of the backstories besides what's written in the text, right?
7:27
SPEAKER_01: And so I did get to be part of a musical and I did get to play the evil villain Caroline Bingley, which was admittedly a great delight.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: But I think it was it was just brilliant.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: I wish I was like, man, I wish I had thought of this idea.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh my, like, of course, Mary's story.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: I love kind of, in a sense, fan fictions of taking a well-known story and having an offshoot of like, well, what about the rest of the story for this particular character?
7:53
SPEAKER_01: How does that play out?
7:54
SPEAKER_01: And even bringing along the other established characters in such a brilliant way.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: So I, yeah, I I really loved it because it just gave some great insight and continued on some storylines, which I'm sure we'll talk about, of course, like Caroline's storyline and some of the other sisters and other characters that come up that Mary is just a brilliant, a brilliant way in which to discover those in her perspective.
8:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, continuing the story in a rich way instead of just fluff or trying to add another character or even another generation.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: This did that really well.
8:30
SPEAKER_02: I think one of the significant things to tie in here or just highlight, because I'm very passionate about story work.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: I call it wholehearted story work.
8:40
SPEAKER_02: I've talked about the framework in which that develops or evolves, or that we can explore our story.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: And you just hinted at a character that we encounter not only outside of us, but also inside of us.
8:55
SPEAKER_02: And that is the villain.
8:56
SPEAKER_02: And so, really quickly, if you are listening for the first time, this is your first wholehearted episode.
9:02
SPEAKER_02: In February, I outlined the five roles that we play.
9:06
SPEAKER_02: And I tend to focus on four, and that's victim, villain, hero guide.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: And I want to just give a nod to that language because we might be using that throughout Mary's story to unpack the journey she's been in.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: But I also spent a week talking about the sidekick or the best friend, sometimes the person who can continue to just hide in the background and not take their hero moment, not exercise agency and step into the role that they were meant to play.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: Now, in wholehearted story work, the story doesn't end at hero.
9:44
SPEAKER_02: And so I loved some of the guide roles that were really highlighted and celebrated here in the story.
9:50
SPEAKER_02: But for now, I'd like to switch it to the question: Were you team Hayward or team writer?
9:58
SPEAKER_02: Paige, give us your insight.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: Team Hayward, all the way.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: But stood out to you from that one.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: I I, having watched, you know, my experience with Jane Austen, my many years of experience with Jane Austen, I loved I loved his character first immediately.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: There's something trustworthy and safe about his character, and that's something like sweeter, Mr.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: Ryder.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we'll talk about him a little bit more, but he was, he's kind of the the bachelor everyone wants to date Mr.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Ryder to get to know Mr.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: Ryder.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: And so there's something a little untrustworthy about the popularity that he has.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: For someone like me, I I mean it's a little bit you're always always like, hmm.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Um so, but I just loved Mr.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: Hayward's his mutual love for books, but also for poetry and his desire even to have Mary learn more about poetry and learn to love it and feel the emotion through it and not think so deeply about it.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that was my initial thought about that.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay, how about you, Annalise?
11:05
SPEAKER_01: I was Team Hayward as well.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: I am, I should say.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: And I think part of it, up until that point, Mary has felt very unseen in her family and other different dynamics within her community.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: And you have this moment, she gets she has a little bit of a glimpse at one point, but it's completely a train wrecked by a family member.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: And so when she gets this chance to go to London away from her family of origin, which is huge sometimes to discover oneself, she is actually seen not only by uh Hayward, but also by some other people, some other family members that we'll talk about.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, but he just had the sense of I really was drawn to him because of how he saw Mary for who she was, even in her awkwardness and her sense of style, her just fun quirkiness of her just being her.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: And he saw it and he appreciated it and he didn't mock it.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: And I love that because I mean, anyone, no matter what type you are, you just want to be seen and accepted for who you are.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why I was drawn to I'm like, oh yay.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: Now I had a taste of that with Ryder.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: So there was parts of me that I'm like, oh, actually, maybe this um Hayward is too neat and easy.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it needs to be this.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: And there were elements of that that I was drawn, but then there was part of me that I just felt uneasy and didn't fully trust writer, partially because of some of how some of the dialogue goes that you're like, oh, I don't know what who is it?
12:42
SPEAKER_01: And he just had this inner, but I was like, oh eventually I was like, no, I really hope it's I'm team Hayward all the way.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: And I appreciated not only how it was written, but the miniseries did a great job as well, letting the story evolve.
12:59
SPEAKER_02: And it was a page turner.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: Who is she gonna end up with?
13:02
SPEAKER_02: Who is she gonna choose?
13:04
SPEAKER_02: I appreciated the aunt who we will talk about soon, Mrs.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: Gardner.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: She comes in at one point and she gives this clever little analogy about finding a hat that she loves and then it wasn't available.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: And so she kept shopping, thinking she couldn't possibly find another hat she would like, but indeed she did.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: And so it's this moment where you go, okay, Mr.
13:28
SPEAKER_02: Hayward was maybe just a hat she liked, but in the end, isn't available.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: So what are the possibilities?
13:36
SPEAKER_02: I say that because I want to talk about the Enneagram types that we maybe see displayed through Hayward, Mr.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: Hayward, and Mr.
13:45
SPEAKER_02: Ryder, who are two of actually many love interests, we'll just put it that way, within the storyline, which I thought was really fun.
13:54
SPEAKER_02: But uh your thoughts of what could have been good or or what was complimentary in these moments and how were their unique Enneagram types displayed throughout the characters, with specifically Mr.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: Ryder and Mr.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: Hayward.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: I think that Hayward definitely was a four.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: And so I see him being a four with a five wing, and I see that played out a little bit with him helping Mary tap into that big bridge, which you know, typically it's you know considered one of the biggest chasms between the types.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the gaps he it has to be a really large wing in order to bridge that gap.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: And I think he does it so beautifully because he helps Mary tap into, and it and Paige, you had mentioned it about this love of poetry and how Mary loathes it.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: She thinks it's the most abhorrent form of literature and just does not understand it.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: She thinks it's a good thing.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: There's nothing concrete, no facts, it doesn't make sense.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: It's not black and white, it's so much gray.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Oh, but let me tell you and show you, and helps her really strengthen that side and help her connect.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: Because I think it was always there.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: It's just that she, due to some woundedness, truly shut herself off from it.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: And so I think I see that kind of that dynamic play out with Hayward.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: Paige, what do you think Ryder was?
15:27
SPEAKER_00: My first thought is I think in Enneagram 7, there's that part of him that you see his longing for traveling and for doing the next fun thing.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even Mary Bennett is something fun and different for him.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: No one like he's ever encountered in society before because she's so uniquely and beautifully her.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's something that, like, you know, is that intrigues him.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think there's that.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: And then also um his desire to live outside of the bounds of society's rules and wanting the idea of not being limited to the idea of marriage, which comes up a little bit, the idea of societal pressure.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: Like he does not want to be trapped by that.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: And I think that to me speaks an Enneagram 7 for sure.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: Good thoughts.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: I love how this plays off.
16:20
SPEAKER_02: Again, we're taking something that maybe the author knows nothing about Enneagram.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: I'd kind of like to talk to her just to see because this played out really richly.
16:31
SPEAKER_02: I know.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: And you know, neither did maybe the BBC production behind the scenes.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: But if you look at Team Writer, so we have if we have Mary as an Enneagram five, the line of stress and growth connects or integration and disintegration is seven and eight.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: And so it was very interesting.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: There was even a moment there where she definitely lived into that seven and from an unhealthy place.
16:59
SPEAKER_02: You knew she was making a decision out of her hurt and pain and anxiety in some way that looked a lot like a seven, and in that moment, then aligned her to Mr.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: Ryder in a deep way that definitely held some regret in the long run.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: And then on this, this other element, like you alluded to, the five-wing four and four-wing five are or actually that no connection point on a diagram.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: If you look at an NAgram diagram, the five and four are the only space that doesn't have a connection.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: It's just this empty, even though the five has a four-wing and four has a five-wing.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: I think we see how perhaps when I talk about wings, we are intended to use them together.
17:49
SPEAKER_02: So we fly further and faster.
17:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think Mary really enters the story with having her four-wing clipped and part of it probably from her family of origin, some of the heartache.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: So she lives more in that five, six.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: And I love how that with uh Mr.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: Hayward coming into her life, he really invites her to tend and mend that four-wing.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: And through that journey, we see her coming into herself in such a beautiful way.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: And actually, even more so in the pages of the book.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: You see it in the mini-series, but the pages of the book do an even deeper justice to the story of development and integration and the healing of that due to Mr.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: Hayward near the beginning.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of just a fun note again for all of us.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: Hello, Enneogram nerds and those who are in the deeper reason for the story.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: I you know, I was contemplating on how like Mary was tempted to make a decision that her younger self had so deeply scorned and judged a family member, kind of, you know, so harshly.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: Here she was presented with a similar choice and she wrestled with it.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: She kind of was feeling almost at her wit's end because of the situation she was in, of like, well, maybe this is my only option then.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: And it just, it just is fascinating.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes what we think there's no way we would ever make that decision.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: And then sometimes when all the things are in play, it can be hard, but it's such a beautiful thing to show and see that then she how she overcomes it and she still holds true to herself and know and that resolve is beautiful.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: I loved her conversation with Elizabeth when she's kind of talking through that decision with Mr.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Ryder, too.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: That was really good.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: That was one of the really good, meaningful conversations that helped her take a step in her relationship with her family and also understanding herself and also talking through this decision that was, you know, very important.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: I just love that.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: I had to say that conversation was really like Yeah, it was a full circle moment.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yep.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Talked covered some good ground for Mary and also for Elizabeth in their relationship.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I wholeheartedly agree.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
20:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was definitely some of the fun elements, the the bonus gems in continuing the story is that you allowed some maybe open loops to conclude in sweet ways that were really good.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: Okay, talking about Elizabeth, since you brought up the sister, one of the sisters, I'd like to talk about the rest of the sisters because they are in the miniseries and in the book.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: Again, we're continuing stories.
20:42
SPEAKER_02: So we have Jane as the oldest, and Elizabeth, who's the second oldest.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: They are both the primary characters, or uh, we we read Pride and Prejudice through Elizabeth's eyes.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: And Jane and her are closest, and their their stories are aligning and inadvertently, inadvertently woven into each other, um, unknowingly, accidentally, not purposely.
21:06
SPEAKER_02: And then we have Kitty and Lydia.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: Mary's the middle, and then we have Kitty and Lydia, who are the youngest.
21:11
SPEAKER_02: I'd love to just give a moment to their Enneagram types, what you think from maybe the stage perspective, Annalise, you interacting the characters there, and Paige U growing up with the BBC version of Pride and Prejudice, which is the is it five hours, six hours?
21:28
SPEAKER_02: It is, I think it's five hours.
21:30
SPEAKER_02: It's lovely.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: I love every minute of it, and it goes by so quickly every single time.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty sure I have it memorized.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: It's great.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: Love it.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay, Jane.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh let's start with the oldest.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: I think Jane is a nine just on her drive of keeping the peace.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: And she's kind of set up that way.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: Her mom puts her almost in that position at a young age.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: And she's so desirous to make people happy.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: And also, she doesn't want to.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Ruffle feathers and cause then her inner turmoil to be shaken.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think her her love interest is also a nine.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: He's quite affable and fun and jolly and outgoing, Mr.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: Bingley.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: And there was there's a line actually from Pride and Prejudice that Mr.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: Bennett, the father of the daughters, say about like after they become engaged.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Spoiler alert, um, is that oh, you know, the the servants are going to take advantage of them.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the mother is like, take advantage.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: They have 5,000 to yeah.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: And it's right, it's just this whole, but it's this telling insight of how the father recognizes just their generous, very peace-loving, calm serenity attitudes that they exude that.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: And so that's where I land with that.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, with Jane.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: Paige, what do you think Elizabeth is?
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think she's a Enneagram eight for sure.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: Her stubbornness, but also her loyalty and her sense of justice is so prevalent.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: I know we were talking about this a while ago, but you mentioned Mr.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Darcy is probably also an Enneagram eight in the sense of they both have this, they're seeking justice in the movies or you know, the stories, and then um, they clash because their sense of justice is so strong and it's misaligned, so it doesn't mesh well.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: Unites them.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but her sense of justice, her loyalty to her family, despite all the things, and her head-strong personality is very much Enneagram eight.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: And I would say maybe she taps into the nine uh because of nurture with her older sister, but then also with the Enneagram 7 with her love for adventure as much as she loves home and um being with family.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like that.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: And then you have, I mean, we talked about Mary, then you have Kitty and the Lydia dynamic.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: No wonder why sometimes Mary just felt so alone because you had these two different sandwiches.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: I always had to remind myself, oh yeah, Kitty is actually older than Lydia.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, but Lydia is such a force to be reckoned with.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: So her personality, and as you kind of discovered, every whim was given to her, basically.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: She was very indulged.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: So there was a little bit of that aspect.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: But I find that Kitty is a six and that Lydia is a seven.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: It plays in that fun dynamic of like how they can wing into each other.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, I would say Lydia's a seven, eight, and then Kitty is a six, seven.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Um in the prominency of it.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: But also Kitty does, there's some elements that she does relate to Mary some.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: And then there has been, especially that connection point, especially once Lydia gets out of the picture.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, okay.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: But I yeah, Lydia's constant thrill and the chase.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: And I kind of, it's funny, I'd actually gone back and forth of like, well, maybe she's like a really passionate social floor.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, but just I think with her certain things of um chasing that next best thing or that thrill is telling in that and some of those dynamics.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I would say Lydia tends to fit more in the assertive stance where she's constantly engaging others, whether it's seeking out in Maryton, you know, I was seeking out all the the red uniforms, I think is how they phrase it.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: And and even at the dinner table, be it obnoxious, she goes after it in such a forceful way, very similar to even Elizabeth.
25:38
SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth isn't backing down.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: So when we're just talking about those assertive stances where we see Kitty going alongside, bonding with her sister, Lydia, but also she doesn't openly, she's not openly against Mary, whereas Lydia may have been uh more apt to make fun of or poke fun of or make a bigger deal about it.
26:00
SPEAKER_02: Whereas Kitty, you kind of sense like, oh, she's kind of feeling badly, but she's not gonna say anything either.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: And Jane certainly, she's just going to retreat, withdraw, be quiet, and hope this will pass, this craziness will pass for sure.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: I think all of those patterns play out pretty clearly.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's fun too, just to note, because we've never done a Pride and Prejudice conversation.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: We have the Enneagram eight as a heroine in Elizabeth.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: And I just I don't think that's always typical as well.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: We sometimes see that as maybe the more villainous or this person kind of comes in and is the guide or an agent of change, not necessarily the person and female.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: So that's also tends to be a unique.
26:41
SPEAKER_02: So that's that's a fun.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: The fact that it was written back in the 1700s.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, that was not a typical not typical at all.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: So you you gotta wonder about Jane Austen and her own right to be an author, to be a female.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: She was quite the advocate because she was technically speaking out on all the things that were wrong societally, from the patriarchal system to women in general, what rights they had and didn't have, and what the real stories were, even about clergy.
27:09
SPEAKER_02: So if we kind of like we could do some deep thinking there.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: So kudos to Jane Austen and her heroine Elizabeth.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I need to fix a date.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: I said 1700s, it was early 1800s.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: 1800s was when Pride and Prejudice was published.
27:24
SPEAKER_02: So Phew, because we are about to get a bunch of hate mail about that one, Honelis.
27:28
SPEAKER_02: Well, I had to make sure I spoke correctly.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: No, no, this is good.
27:32
SPEAKER_02: There you're my fact-checked her.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
27:34
SPEAKER_02: A couple other characters that I really want to talk about because they carry over into this story.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: And specifically, Annalise, I think you need to talk about Caroline Bingley because you played her and you know her role.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: I did.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I got to play her a couple times, several times actually.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: A fun thing is we did get to go to Bath, England and perform there at the Jane Austen Festival.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: And it was so much fun.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: So amazing.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: I know.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: It was great.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, Caroline, I really I kind of kept going back and forth because when I really played her, I wasn't, I really hadn't started into the Enneagram quite yet.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: And using the skill to help apply actually with developing some character stuff.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: But I land at a three.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: I think some of the the areas that she goes to and that we see play out um in her story really helps me keep landing.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay, she's that three, especially her drive and her assertiveness, but then her, there is a lot of heart in there, but her her desire to um have a certain facade and presentation to the world, which can be a three struggle and struggling with ironically with being vulnerable.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: And so seeing her really have the drive of having a wealthy marriage connection and um really wanting to keep her social status, helping also her brother achieve one and maintaining a certain standard for that.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, but also then as we delve into the other Bennett sister story and seeing Caroline progress there, one, the author did a brilliant job with us continuing to loathe her, if not even more.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: But we're a little more reasonable.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh, there's just some horrific things.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: But I loved then her full arc that she gave her just kind of a beautiful progression and actually a little bit of redemption um of giving her a chance to become instead of the villain, she got to become a hero, actually, in the story for Mary, which was such the irony because she had been such the villain to not only Mary, but you know, the rest of her family.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: And then for her to become the hero, like what a fun turn of events.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: So I really love, I do have a lot of compassion for Caroline.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: She is so much fun to play because she's a complete and utter snob.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: Um which, you know, it's just fun to delve into a character that isn't as opposite of you.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: So it was not a typecast.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: No, not at all.
30:13
unknown: Yeah.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: Uh I love it.
30:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: I also want to talk about the gardeners.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: I fell in love with them.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: I enjoyed them in the previous storyline.
30:25
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
30:26
SPEAKER_02: But so, Paige, give us some some of your thoughts on the gardeners, which are the aunt and uncle of Mary.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: Well, I just have to say they are like in the original series, but also you love them then because they help Elizabeth in her story with Mr.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: Darcy.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: But you you just love them to a whole nother level in this series because they are, in a way, Mary's saviors and real family, someone she can depend on that truly loves her for who she is.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: They become her guide in her journey in life in general, but also in love.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: And I would say it's an Enneagram 7, Enneagram 2 combo.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: I would say Mrs.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Gardner is an Enneagram 7 and Mr.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: Gardner is an Enneagram 2.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: And their um, their informality with their children in a way that was so different from culture.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: Then I don't know if like the scene not seen and not heard.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: But their desire to have their kids love learning through whether it was games or it was like interactive learning.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: I loved that because that was very unlike many people in the times, but also just their love for different gatherings with their people, because they had their specific group of people and their sense of adventure and even when they go to the lakes and inviting and saving Mary from her mother, honestly, towards the end of the show.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: It's just they are such sweet characters, and I love them so dearly.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: They were, they were so fun.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay, Annalise, you have to talk about a moment because you happen to be the aunt and uncle in our family that is the two seven combo.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: So were you relating at all in that storyline?
32:20
SPEAKER_02: So much so.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: I just I loved, I love the space that they created.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, I want that space.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to emulate that.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's my heart's desire, and kind of similar conversations that Dan and I have had of like, oh, we would want that our house to exude that.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: And you might actually hear my son cooing every so often, he might be contributing.
32:42
SPEAKER_02: We'll take it.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: Warren has joined the conversation.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: But I do love like one of my favorite quotes of do you mind if I share that one right now?
32:53
SPEAKER_01: Please, you should share that one.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: I love like it it to me it it exudes just something I think that's a truth for everyone, where no matter what your Enneagram type is, that this is true for everyone and anyone.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: And that Mrs.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Gardiner says, and anyway, in our house, no one is obliged to sparkle, which I find makes it far more likely that they might.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: And I love that because it's permission of no matter what your motivation is and like why you do what you do, and whatever number you're you function out of.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: One, it's not meant to be a box, but a launching point.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: And as you often say, it's it should not be a stuck point, you know, it's a point to help just gain actually further freedom.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: And so I love that that it's giving permission of hey, you're not obliged to sparkle.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
33:46
SPEAKER_01: If you end up finding yourself in who you were made to be, you probably will.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: So I just I love that so much.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: Their guidance, their guidance to not focus, to not compare or to not let yourself get swallowed up in that and let yourself fully become who you were designed to be all along, which she does.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: One thought too, your mention about their home is a space for Mary to like have her own.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: She talked about having never being able to have a room that she got to design and pick out things.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: Cause you yeah, you said something earlier that reminded me of that.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: Of her she comments when she goes to London for the first time, like feeling almost at home because this place she got to add whatever she wanted, and it felt more like her and more comfortable.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember what she said about it, but I that struck me.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh yeah, like there's something about the space they created that her cozy cast.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: It was, yeah.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, I thought she needed it was a she needed the physical space to help her with her internal space freedom.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: Yep, it did.
34:51
SPEAKER_02: And that's an important element, actually, something that is is really valuable.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: I I'm gonna prompt you in this one, Pai, because I let our friend understand that this is the second time we're talking about this.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: And this was a goal that you brought up because Mr.
35:06
SPEAKER_02: and Mrs.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: Gardner act as the guides in the story, and they are the unsung heroes.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of times I've really come to appreciate and look for.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: You had another fun fact, another guide in the story that I think is worth noting because it is a carryover in a really fun way from the actual Pride and Prejudice into the other Bennett sister.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: So the actress for Miss Hill, right?
35:31
SPEAKER_00: The housekeeper for the family.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, um, she is the original Mary Bennett in the BBC version, which I absolutely loved.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: And in my mind, maybe not the idea of the writers, but I felt like she got to help and guide her younger self and help her see how beautiful and how like how important she was to her story.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: The quote that stood out to me was let's see, perhaps, but in truth, I don't think you see yourself quite clearly, miss.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: Your sisters get in the way.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: A daffodil seems quite ordinary when planted between lilies, but looked at without them, it has its own kind of beauty.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: And it was fun.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: It felt like older Mary got to tell you her younger self how beautiful she is, and she's trapped in this world of her family.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: And compared to them, sure, she might not be as beautiful or as talented as they are, but in the world, she is so beautifully her own and remarkable in her own way that other people have the privilege of seeing.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: And so I loved like I felt like a nod in some ways in that way.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: That's such good wisdom and insight, Paige I love that so much.
36:45
SPEAKER_02: And a quick shout out to our friends who listen from across the pond.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: We have a lot of friends who listen across a lot of ponds, but those specifically who can speak in a lovely, real, authentic British accent, our apologies.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: So, Jane and Sarah, we love you.
37:04
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for laughing at us with us.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they are my English, um, Jane is my English mum.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: So I'm in her and I'm her American daughter.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: And whenever I do break out in a British accent, they do giggle.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: But we love it and adopt us all, is what I say.
37:22
SPEAKER_02: Um okay, as we're wrapping up here, I want to give each of you an opportunity to just share something else that you didn't get to touch on today.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: I did want to make note too of Charlotte Lucas, who is in the original Pride and Prejudice.
37:37
SPEAKER_02: She's the good friend who ends up marrying Mr.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: Collins.
37:41
SPEAKER_02: She actually has some wisdom.
37:43
SPEAKER_02: While she does play a little bit of a villain in the story and its unique spin on the original story, and I don't think the author took it too far.
37:52
SPEAKER_02: I think it's very in line, very true.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: And she actually gets more time in the book versus the miniseries.
38:00
SPEAKER_02: But Charlotte Lucas has this bomb of wisdom to marry.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, I wish our friends could see this one because our nephew's being very entertaining during our conversation.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: But I digress.
38:13
SPEAKER_02: Charlotte Lucas says watching what happens isn't the same as being part of it.
38:19
SPEAKER_02: And that one bit of wisdom, even though it comes before her villainous moment, is actually something that sets the trajectory of Mary's story.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: It facilitates the arc, the story arc of Mary's evolution that you don't realize she's about to embark upon, but she does.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of fun too.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: Again, for those who are debating if I watch it, do I also want to read it?
38:43
SPEAKER_02: I say, absolutely do both.
38:45
SPEAKER_02: Both are beautifully done.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: I think they do both do a great job of honoring the story all the way around.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: So and I'll say I broke my own rule because I always say read the book first, then watch it too.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: I had the opportunity to watch it with the two of you when I was visiting, and I couldn't pass it up.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: No, yes, agreed.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: It was so delightful.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: Well, here's the deal.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: We paid for the Brit Pac subscription, and I didn't know how many months I'd want to pay for it.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: So we had to watch the miniseries before I got the book.
39:18
SPEAKER_02: It was worthwhile.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: All right.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: So, Annalise, how about you?
39:22
SPEAKER_02: Any thoughts that we didn't get to cover this time around?
39:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I really want to mention actually Mrs.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: Bennett, the mom, because oh, what the irony is a fun fact is Amy's and my mother played Mrs.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: Bennett in the shows and the productions that I was in, and she did a brilliant job.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's always been fun.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I will say, in of course, the book of Pride and Prejudice, the movie, and then this other Bennett sister story, it just it gives some insight into I don't know, Mrs.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: Bennett is so complex.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: She is her own worst nightmare and in some regards because she, I think she's an Enneogram six, and she for understandable reasons back in the day, having five daughters, oh my, like that would be absurd.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: And to not be crazy wealthy and have a husband who's who puts his head in the sand a little bit and she feels alone and isolated.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: And so I think the fact that she herself was an element of a victim, but she leaned into a villain, especially in regards to Mary.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: And so it became a cycle for her.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: I think what's kind of sad of that is that she's a prime example of someone who has so many opportunities of getting help and freedom, but she chooses not to.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I would have been like, you girl, you need to go seek counseling.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: You need some help.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh we all need counseling.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh that that is essential.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: But she herself was just given so many opportunities to get that freedom and help and no longer be in that anxious state.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: But she didn't know how to break free from it.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: She gave a lot of insight to maybe why Mary ended up choosing what she chose and her wounds that kind of she caused in Mary.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: And but then seeing how Mary still loves her mom but has to get health and freedom from her own mother.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: Honalise, I love that you highlight that because this is why I think using fictional story can really help us get a grid of where we are and where we need to go, because this does perfectly illustrate that we are all victims at some point.
41:52
SPEAKER_02: We we have experiences or we're born into a family, or there is a situation where we are a victim.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: And villains become villains after they've been a victim so long and then they don't do the work.
42:05
SPEAKER_02: But it's when we do the work that we can take a different path, the pathless travel, and step into our own hero role instead of being a villain to ourselves or a villain to others.
42:16
SPEAKER_02: And I do think Mrs.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: Bennett is a great illustration of that.
42:20
SPEAKER_02: You do have compassion for her in the story, but she does cause quite a lot of harm, which is just great, even as a mom, to step out of yourself and for a second go, ooh, is there any flavor of that in my parenting or mothering at all?
42:37
SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's a good one to it's a good observation to make.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: All right.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: You, Paige, any any last thoughts of what stood out for you?
42:46
SPEAKER_00: A super random one that came to mind was Mr.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: Collins.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: He's also in the original story, but he in this one, we get to see from Mary's lens, she's taking this as a possible option for a match for her because she knows for a fact that Elizabeth is not going to be interested in Mr.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: Collins.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: But she doesn't end up obviously marrying him and winning his affection.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: But when he is married to Charlotte Lucas later on, they kind of meet again and there's a conversation.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: They they both connect in the knowledge aspect.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: They both loved the sermons.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember the name whose it was, but like four dice's sermons.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: Their pursuit of happiness is in the they're trying to understand what happiness was the same of his marriage with Charlotte was not great, and you have more compassion for him because he's the weird character in the original story.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but exactly.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: And then in this, you there's just infinitely more like understanding and compassion for his nerdiness and his weirdness, and there's something from Mary's lenses that sees it and has compassion for it and also connects with it in the way of that is just who he is, just as she is who she is.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: But the part when there he's trying to research what happiness is and what he found what Aristotle said.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember what it was, but you are in charge of your own happiness.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm that.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: I just thought that was like I loved seeing Mr.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: Collins in a way help push Mary understanding that because they were both in the same predicament of how do I find my happiness in the story.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
44:30
SPEAKER_02: It was it was the surprising guide world that he got to step into where he was definitely almost the villain in the first story and and and not your favorite character, but he was a weird, annoying side character.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he does kind of have the sidekick best friend vibe that ends up happening uh for him.
44:49
SPEAKER_02: Goodness.
44:50
SPEAKER_02: I know we could keep talking about this because it's so much fun.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: There's so many layers, there's actually a lot of depth here.
44:57
SPEAKER_02: Again, the reason why I sometimes bring fictional stories, movies to this Enneagram conversation is it best illustrates in a way that helps us view lived experiences.
45:10
SPEAKER_02: It's why in my book, Wholehearted Enneagram, I used a fictional story for each type because I wanted people to live it and to see it and to try it on and literally take a walk, a walk a mile in someone else's shoes, or at least 3,000 words to get that flavor.
45:30
SPEAKER_02: It is to help us connect and resonate for those very it will never go out of style because Jesus used it, God used it.
45:37
SPEAKER_02: This is part of our world.
45:39
SPEAKER_02: But Paige, Annalise, and Warren, thank you for being a part of the conversation.
45:45
SPEAKER_02: This was so much fun, and let's do it again sometime.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having us.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
45:59
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for joining me for the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: If this conversation spoke to you, please share it with a friend.
46:09
SPEAKER_02: You can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
46:22
SPEAKER_02: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your stuck point.