Latest / The Leading Yourself Podcast / Leading Between Present and Future | Professor Rathna Ramanathan
Transcript
- Kene Igweonu: My guest in this episode is a really good friend of mine, someone whose leadership spans higher education, the creative sector, and global engagement. Professor Rathna Ramanathan is the Provost of Central Saint Martins University of the Arts London. She's also the Executive Dean for Global Engagement for University of the Arts London. What matters here, like I always say, in each episode, is not just the title, as important as they are, but what Rathna's leadership journey reveals about leading oneself when responsibility is high and the stakes are also high. Rathna, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Rathna Ramanathan: Kene, thank you for having me. That's such a great introduction and also sort of grounds us really about the things that we've spoken about in the time that we've known each other. So thank you for having me. Kene Igweonu: Amazing. And Rathna, one of the things I ask people to do when we start the episode is to say a little bit about their organization and their role. And the reason why I ask people to say about the organization is I want listeners to get a sense of the scale and the complexity of what you have to deal with in your leadership. So do you mind saying a bit about your organization, University of the Arts London and Central Saint. Martins, and what your role as Provost and Executive Dean entails? Rathna Ramanathan: Amazing, yes, thank you for that. So the University of the Arts London basically made up of six colleges and about 22,000 students in total. ⁓ We're course, as the title suggests, based in London, but we see things from all the way from pre-degree, know, all the to PhDs in the creative sector. when I say creative or creative education, there's a long range there. There's of course the London College of Communication, Kene, you know, very familiar with but it's also like creative computing for example anything arts, design, fashion, law, business so it's quite a ⁓ wide range Central Saint is of course one of the six colleges so ⁓ as Provost I that college, so that's my college role as it were and then each of us as a Provost of course has a you know a lateral portfolio, so responsibility for University the Arts London ⁓ and mine is super it's Global Affairs. So it's about, know, really a mutual benefit, like creative education and its mutual benefit, not just in the UK, but also in the place that our colleges are based in locally, as well as internationally. So it's local, national and global, ⁓ and that to our staff and students. So really championing the work that creativity can do Kene Igweonu: ⁓ Rathna Ramanathan: CSM has 6000 students. You're the operational lead as well as the academic So, you every college has ⁓ a team, exec team that supports you in that. So a federal system, have to work in collaboration to be successful. So I think perhaps the most important part of this creative university that's University of the Arts London. Kene Igweonu: Amazing. Thank you so much Rathna for that. And I did get your executive dean title wrong when I said global engagement it's global affairs. So thanks for correcting that in your introduction. ⁓ Rathna Ramanathan: Yeah, thank you. Kene Igweonu: And I should know better because I used to work with you at University of the Arts London. Okay. What does self leadership mean to you as a senior executive leader? When you think about self leadership, what does it mean to you? Rathna Ramanathan: Yes. So I think first is, I suppose, When people see us ⁓ means to them, and I'm thinking by people here I mean students or young people or marginalized people, that people like us can lead. ⁓ I think ⁓ is also about the kind of people who are seen in leadership. ⁓ that's something that I realized only after some time and being in a role ⁓ how students particularly responded to me when they saw me walk into a room. And I, ⁓ that somebody like us can be in a position like that. so leading yourself that practice really means also what you stand for ⁓ a sense. you know, I think ⁓ seen some of your, your podcasts, a of that is also about the values you stand for ⁓ and making that visible. ⁓ I think for I feel like I've in design ⁓ and, know, as a professor of design, whether practice or research, ⁓ I think it's given me a model for Kene Igweonu: Okay. Hmm. Rathna Ramanathan: that I think doesn't get talked about much in higher education context. And for me, design practice is inherently iterative. You make something, you have to test it, and then you have to constantly revise it relation to the context in which it is in. So whether that's in a certain place in a different culture or in a different audience. ⁓ So for me, I like that process requires a specific kind of self relationship. ⁓ You have to be invested enough in the work to make real ⁓ through its stages. ⁓ But you have to be detached enough to know when it's not working. ⁓ So you to keep that balance. ⁓ So leading yourself means ⁓ that's the discipline ⁓ that you to making something has to be applied to your own thinking and your own judgment. ⁓ You have be able to kind of move. in that sense. So it means that you can't mistake that your last, you know, whatever good decision that you took is the absolute truth about all of your capabilities, ⁓ because we're right? ⁓ So that great, but this may not be great ⁓ in the that I'm approaching it. And I think for me, I call it practice led leadership, you know, means that it's also that the doing and the thinking can't mistake that last, know, whatever good that you took is the absolute truth about all of your because we're human, right? So that was great, but this may not be great ⁓ the way that I'm it. And I think for me, I call it practice leadership, you know, means that it's also that the doing and the thinking Kene Igweonu: ⁓ Rathna Ramanathan: are not separate like in design, you through making. So learn what you believe by making things and shaping them as well as reflecting on them. are not separate like in design, you through making. ⁓ you learn what you believe by making things and shaping them as well as reflecting on them. ⁓ I think that's a very important part of self leadership for ⁓ So we bring it back to a university context, I feel that ⁓ sometimes have an institutional instinct in higher education ⁓ where defer the action till everything is So the framework has to be completed, everything is you know and I feel if we could learn a bit from that you must prototype, you must iterate, you must stay curious about what the work is revealing and that's a form of self leadership in itself and I think if I'm honest with you it's also a way of you staying honest to yourself and to the environment and the communities that you're working with that you're serving, so for me that's sort leading yourself means in practice. Kene Igweonu: I like that. That's a really, really brilliant answer. I like how you're connecting it to the doing as well. I think because sometimes when we think about leadership, we to dissociate the thinking part of leadership ⁓ from doing part of it. That's a really good one. And actually, as you were speaking, Rathna Ramanathan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kene Igweonu: One of the images it brought to my mind is a book I read some time ago when I did my MBA, called Like a Leader by Ibarra Hermania, where Ibarra Hermania talks about this notion of outsight ⁓ as one of the ways to develop leadership competencies. So thank you so much. That's a really good one. Thank you. Rathna Ramanathan: Mm-hmm. Right. Kene Igweonu: And just thinking about values, because again, this is about values-based ⁓ Can think about a moment in your leadership journey when your values determined or a difficult decision? Rathna Ramanathan: Yeah. In leadership often about people, isn't it? We're very deeply people-centered. ⁓ But at the same time, as who's a Provost or a Deputy Vice Chancellor, like you are, ⁓ you also have to be genuinely because you're also in charge of these two things, the people that you're looking after, as well as the institution and its stability and its and its ⁓ And think these two things We're very people-centered. But at the same time, as somebody who's a Provost or a Deputy Vice Chancellor, you are, you also have to be genuinely future-centered because you're also in charge of these two things, people that you're looking after, as well as the institution and its stability and its future and its currency. And I think these two things can pull in opposite ways. can pull in opposite ways. Sometimes there are people in front of you that have very real needs right now and they're shaped by the structures and the expectations that currently exist around them. But if you're thinking like five to ten years out as a senior leader then you're working in some ways with a world that hasn't arrived yet. And sometimes those structures that the people that are depending on right now are the things that need to change. So when you asked me for an example, when we were looking at developing schools at Central Saint Martins, I did not want to duplicate because we have sister colleges. I did not want to duplicate having a school of design because London College of Communication had one and our sister college, know, Chelsea, Camberwell, Wimbledon, CCW had one. So I was thinking about what is the inherent, you know, the spirit that held CSM together. And it was context. you so we away from departmental structures into schools of thought is what we ⁓ put together. that was fundamentally a values decision ⁓ because before was even a strategic one, ⁓ if I'm ⁓ because it from a genuine belief that I think how creative education has been organized in CSM wasn't necessarily about disciplines, that's important, but it was about things like climate crisis, for example. So architecture was very involved in climate and fashion, which we have also needs to respect sustainability so ⁓ I felt that ⁓ the change had to reflect that truth that was sitting in the college and really make it a core truth. So the principle we landed on was foundations, not hierarchies. Because I think it's also talking about leadership, a refusal that says that someone has to be at the top for something to be stable, or it's someone at the top that's the one that's actually leading. So that's, feel, is a values position that we can all lead if we know what the frame is. But it also shapes how I think we think about governance. Who gets to have the credit for something? Who writes the acknowledgments for something? So I keep coming back to this again and again. How does the architecture of how we work, you know, to use a practice way of saying it, reflect, how we say or what we believe in that sense? ⁓ So the framework wasn't designed to make the present comfortable. It's quite uncomfortable for us to move to schools of thought and have a massive fashion program or a fine art program or, know, ⁓ but it's designed for the conditions that we can see forming on the horizon. You know, so I feel that many staff and students were talking about these conditions, but didn't know how to bring them into the workshop or into the studio. So I feel that leadership work is really to honor both these orientations simultaneously. The people and the present and what they care about and to be honest with them about the future that you're building, but also to rewire that change back from the future into sort of ⁓ structures are livable and sort of like maybe legible, maybe ⁓ much clear. So I feel as senior leaders who are led by values, ⁓ we're translating between two different time horizons all the time. And you're holding, you have to hold that transition with enough integrity that people can trust, know, both the direction you're taking, but also the care that's happening because it's uncomfortable and it's difficult. for me that was a sort of a bigger way of saying, know, and I've got to still hold the values because the decision is still ongoing. ⁓ So it's hard, but at least you can hold it with the same spine again and again and values help you do that. Kene Igweonu: Thank you. Really good answer there, but can I just push a little bit on what was it about these two different time horizons, the present and the future, ⁓ made this decision uncomfortable for you as a leader? Rathna Ramanathan: That's a really good question because I think that's that, It's hard to see beyond our immediate success, isn't it? It's hard to tell people, you're amazing, but actually we still need to move forward. So I think getting that message across to people who are used to excelling hard because of course it doesn't diminish what they're doing, ⁓ you're also sort of, saying there's this, has to be a place forward. We can't just stay with the past ⁓ or the present. We've to look to that future. So I think ⁓ that was hard. getting a message across to people who take a lot of pride in their work and you know do excellent work that this movement was needed I think but also I would say that I feel very strongly and perhaps I should have said this at the start I feel an important value of leadership is that you're lease holding as I call it you're a custodian you're not the owner of it you're just the custodian so if you hold yourself as a custodian then you know your place within this, you know, at some point I'm going to have to hand over the baton to somebody like I took it from somebody else. So, you know, I have got to leave that in a space that addresses some of that, like my predecessors before me and whoever comes after me. Yeah. Kene Igweonu: Thank you. I like that leadership as custodianship. And actually, leads into my next question about leadership roles. view of what you've just said about being a custodian, how do you stop your leadership role from becoming your identity, where the person the leader becomes almost inseparable, ⁓ especially when got high responsibilities you've got to fulfill, ⁓ and the that people in your Rathna Ramanathan: Yeah. Yeah. Kene Igweonu: lead a community have on you is quite high. Rathna Ramanathan: I don't think if we are bringing our full selves to work we entirely can. So perhaps it's a sort of like something about sustaining ourselves through this in some ways. Yeah, maybe it's about its peaks, isn't it? So I think when it's going well, it's fine. It's like when it gets really tense or there's pressure or there's certain kinds of uncertainty that it gets about, know, well, I'm going to Rathna for that, ⁓ know, And I think first, perhaps, is sustaining yourself, I think. So there is this thing about oxygen mass theory, really, isn't it? It's sort of like ensuring that no matter what, that you maintain your ethics and your integrity and your identity and you never give that over to any institution. So that is beyond any institution. That level of leadership has to, so that you stand for these things consistently. ⁓ And people know that when there's a problem, it sort of goes back to your previous question, when they know when there's a problem, that even if they don't like what's happening, they could trust that you will address it because you've got that spine. But I think you're right, you can't necessarily avoid that. But you have to ensure that it doesn't become all of your identity. Now, I know you Kene, like me, are a professor, you you're doing this podcast, for example. So I think there's also things that you need to nurture about yourself that you care deeply about that are outside of that role that are really important to you. Because otherwise, it could subsume you and it's not good for the institution and it's not good for you either. So I think it's also our practice, our research and our practice and having that real intention makes you a better leader. And you, know, like me, are a parent of an active family, example. So I feel like it's also me being a good mum, it also makes me a good leader because I can understand caring responsibility. I can understand those dimensions, but if I was not valuing my family life, then I might have been a different kind of leader as well. And I think we both served under different leaders as an example, some who have valued all aspects and some that have not. So I really want to be somebody that does value that so that other people, our teams can show that that also happens and then they could show it to their teams as well. Kene Igweonu: I'm interested in just pulling one more thread on that front. You talked about the academic title, the professor. And I think that ⁓ in higher education, ⁓ Rathna Ramanathan: Yeah. Kene Igweonu: Often people, including myself, struggle with the idea of being a leader, a strategic senior leader in higher education and keeping their research or practice going. But I know that yourself as a professor of design, you manage to keep your practice going and your research. Could you say a little bit about that, the tensions between leadership and your research and professional practice and how you manage that? Rathna Ramanathan: Hmm. Yeah. That's really exciting question for me because I think every stage my career, I've wondered whether to choose between, you know, because as you go, it's time, it? It's planning of time and it's the value of that at that time. I'm thinking about, ⁓ you know, it becomes a lifestyle, you're saying, being a senior leader, ⁓ you know, and you've had vice-chancellors this call, it becomes a real lifestyle in terms of that choice, ⁓ which I appreciate because there's a servant leadership model there, you're in complete service, service to that. ⁓ I for me, because I'm a professor of intercultural communication and design, ⁓ It is fundamental to the work that I do. I can't separate it necessarily. It helps me do the work I do. Thinking as a designer or thinking as an intercultural leader is fundamental to how I lead Central Saint Martins or how I'm an Executive Dean for global I had to when ⁓ applying for what was the head of college role, really think about integration. So of course there will be a loss in some ways you're not a full-time professor so there will be a loss you have to accept that but I think that ⁓ keep the bits that are really important in terms of that integration is really really important and therefore it's sort of like, it's like a Venn diagram. It all, you know, it feeds into each other. ⁓ But there were three separate buckets that were very tight boundaries, ⁓ that be very hard for me to manage. ⁓ probably for other people. But for me, it was really being very clear about my time and planning my week so that it wasn't just theory, but also I was putting it into practice. And I know that you've been good at that as well, that's hard. It's hard work. And sometimes you win some weeks ⁓ sometimes you don't. ⁓ But as long as people understand in an academic institution, it's good to have academic senior leaders and ⁓ promote those, then yes. I might say something slightly contentious Kene Igweonu: Okay. Okay. Rathna Ramanathan: which is I know where you don't come from the UK, nor do I. I think that we've had to fight quite a lot to retain lots of things or we've had a journey where there's been a struggle. So... I think in a way we're practiced in multiple ways. I think that when you have, you know, come straight from the bottom you you found your way through that. I think that you learn things as you're going along your journey. ⁓ that struggle becomes a part of what defines you and what you're unwilling to give up about yourself. Kene Igweonu: Absolutely. And I don't think they said anything controversial about that because that's really stating the fact of the matter. I came to the UK from Nigeria and the journey hasn't always been straightforward or easy. And I think along the line, I've learned a lot of things that inform my Rathna Ramanathan: Mm-hmm. Yep. Kene Igweonu: how I show up at work today. Rathna Ramanathan: Exactly, and I think that that's an important and hence why students who are going through that see you walking into a room and can understand without you having to say anything ⁓ that you know there's somebody there that that that gets it but also provides them with an aspiration that that it's feasible that it's feasible yeah. Kene Igweonu: Absolutely. Thank you for that. And just thinking about how you stay grounded as a human being and as a leader, as a parent or whatever other social roles that you perform. Is there a regular practice or habit that helps you stay grounded, both as a human being, but also as a leader? Rathna Ramanathan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think time is really important because I think that what can happen when you're in a very busy institution is that you can get caught up in that institution in its time. ⁓ And you can, it's sort of like the pace of institutional life becomes really, know, stops us being curious, stops us being human in that sense. And I think you have to resist that because that care that you provide allows you to think, allows you to do all the things we talk about to make and to reflect. So I think my practices are to find those times for for oneself to be able to think and reflect and to protect those. And that could be for me as a graphic designer, as an artist, it could be drawing, it could be writing, it could be walking, it could be... Pilates, so physical exercise things that take your mind away a little bit so that you don't get caught up in your in your mind a lot. ⁓ So I like walking and talking. I feel that's that's that's a helpful, helpful practice. And I have to say that I do like driving. It calms me down. I listen to I listen to Bollywood music and I, you know, so I remind myself of of who I am. It might be just short things. And I feel like sometimes in senior leadership, what we might think is ⁓ You know what? I'm going to organize a holiday. I'm going to take the summer off or I'm going to have a I'm going to do my research at that time. No, it has to be regular. You have to create that space for yourself daily and connect with yourself and with people daily. That's outside of that. Otherwise, you'll I feel you'll burn out. And I used to do that. It's a learned practice. I have to say I would race and then, you know, run out and it's I like it's a marathon to use a metaphor and I was legging it like it was 100 meters. And so I think pace is really, really important in And like you've said, reading, ⁓ how other people have dealt ⁓ with those So I love that. like reading ⁓ and hearing you know. ⁓ So feeding myself, but I think maybe that's an academic activity that you're constantly learning. many of us in university. to learn, it, rather than anything else, even though we're teachers ⁓ or senior leaders. So I think that's probably, yeah, the practice that's really important. ⁓ Making family time. I make sure I'm home for dinner time and, you know, we have some time as a family because my day is equally important as the other days around the table and to hear how everybody else's day has gone. ⁓ And to make time at the start of a meeting perhaps to ask your colleagues and your team how they're doing, you know. So to touch on the human in those aspects really good, yeah. ⁓ perhaps a hard thing for us to do as leaders, but things that you and I did, Kene, when we worked with each other is to ask ⁓ support from colleagues when even all of that is not working. So I know with you and other colleagues at work, we have exchanged hugs and cake. So, that helps being on that level and saying actually know what I'm having a really tough time today and allowing other people to support you through that so that you're not lonely and that is really really important. ⁓ Kene Igweonu: I like a lot everything you've said. I like what you said about peace, ⁓ you in oneself, because ⁓ I sometimes I found myself in the past where I work really hard ⁓ because looking forward to my annual leave. And then actually what happens that when I have the leave, I crash and I become sick because I've just worked myself to to too hard. So just pacing think that's really important. ⁓ And the last you said about hugs and cakes. Absolutely. I recommend it. If you're watching this you've got people you trust that you can Rathna Ramanathan: Yeah. 100%. Kene Igweonu: you know, just say, look, I need some support right now. I just need a hug. I need a cake or whatever, you know, catches you. Please use that. I used to work with the vice chancellor who we had it every time we have a meeting. He will say, how are you doing? I say, oh, I'm fine. And I will also ask how they are doing. And I remember this one day when I came to him. Rathna Ramanathan: Yeah. Kene Igweonu: And we exchanged the usual kind of how are you doing? And I asked him how are you doing? How was yesterday? And he just said, look, I need to stop and just thank you for this. And I'm like, for what? And he goes, well, I a lot of people as vice chancellor. And I ask them how their day has been. But nobody ever pauses to ask me how my day has been. And he said, I just wanted to take this moment just to take that in. And I appreciate you always asking me how I'm doing. Rathna Ramanathan: Mmm. That's right. Kene Igweonu: So yeah, find a colleague, find a friend, find somebody you can, know, just share how difficult your day has been and know that you're gonna get that support from them. And sometimes it's just as simple as how you, I hope you're doing well, I hope your day has not been too difficult. Rathna Ramanathan: 100%. Exactly. Yeah. And I think just touching that just makes a difference that someone is noticing and recognizing you like the way that you spoke about the VC that you worked with. I think that's absolutely, absolutely really, really integral. ⁓ One of my first line managers said to me, because I've worked in art and design, he said, you need to remind yourself it's art and design. It's not life or death. Yeah. I know that you're a doctor. I'm a doctor of typography for God's sake, you know, not like, yeah. So I think there's also that it's very hard when you're facing pressure and you're facing the well-being of people ⁓ but it is just that. And actually when you step away and you and I know this when you step away sometimes from it and you come back to it, you always have a sort of fresher perspective you know. Yeah and that connection really helps. Yeah more clarity. Yeah 100 % yeah. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, you have clarity, more clarity. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. You'll be pleased to know we've come to the end of this. I've got just one more question I want to explore with you. ⁓ this is at the heart of what this podcast is about. It's about helping people who in leadership or aspiring for leadership ⁓ to that there is, you know, to develop their leadership. ⁓ So for who is listening to you right now and somebody who is reflecting on what it means to Rathna Ramanathan: Yeah. Kene Igweonu: lead well with integrity, with impact and values. What would you want to say to them that this is something you've got to hold on to and nurture in order to be the kind of value-based leader that you want to be? Rathna Ramanathan: Yeah. ⁓ Such an interesting question because it is about all of the things we've spoken about, isn't it? About the struggle, about the pace, about... I think perhaps the thing that has kept ⁓ going and include you in this is don't let the pace of your career, your institutional life become a reason to stop being curious. ⁓ I think that the busier that things get, the more that we feel the need to respond to that situation or the last email or something. Resist it, would say. ⁓ I think the things that genuinely require leadership are ones that don't fit the template that everybody tells you about. ⁓ the ones that actually come from you. ⁓ that includes being honest about what you don't know, ⁓ example. So I feel like, ⁓ know, have sort of integrity but I think also perhaps as a leader in the way that you've spoken build in structures and mechanisms that make it safe for people around you to tell you things that you may not want to hear or that may be uncomfortable for you to hear because I think sometimes ⁓ I felt that a situation when I found the solution to something or thought through something, it was least likely to come to me naturally. It just came from the environment that was around me. So there's an openness. Be open and curious and stay really true to yourself because jobs will come and go, but there is only one you. And you cannot replace a you. So got to hold on to that. Kene Igweonu: Thank you so much Rathna. That's a good word of advice to everyone who is listening right now, whether an aspiring leader or you're senior leader, that is an advice that you should take to heart. ⁓ Thank very much for joining me on this podcast today. Rathna Ramanathan: Thank you so much, Kelly. It's just like been a long, lovely chat with somebody that I and respect. ⁓ it's great to exchange these thoughts, which I know that we've done in the past. This is amazing. I think it's very important to have this. Leading yourself is what you call it. And I think that there is a real sense of purpose in that. So thank you for having me. Kene Igweonu: Thank you. Thank you very much. And if you're watching, one of the things I take from this conversation is that starts with you. ⁓ got to take care of yourself. ⁓ got to make sure that you're pacing yourself. You've got to make sure that you have the right support infrastructure or support structure around you, both in terms of people, ⁓ terms of the kind of practice that you engage with every day to help yourself recalibrate. Absolutely essential. ⁓ hope you've enjoyed this podcast and do please listen again and again to this ⁓ someone who I value so much as a leader, as a friend, ⁓ she's spoken with so much wisdom today. Thank you so much once again and ⁓ goodbye. Rathna Ramanathan: Thank you Kene It's a real pleasure. Thank you for having me. Bye bye.