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Navigating High-Conflict Divorce · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

0:05
Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
0:07
Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
0:13
Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
0:20
Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
0:30
Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature, and flourish.
0:34
Mary: Let's dive in.
0:35
Mary: Hey Violets, welcome to the show.
0:42
Mary: I once entered into a situation where I gave someone rights to something that I bought and paid for, and then they wouldn't give it back.
0:49
Mary: It's a long and sordid story, and honestly, I should have known better.
0:54
Mary: But one of those situations where I ignored the red flags, and you know how that goes.
0:58
Mary: And also one that showed me that people can profess to care about you and a short time later fight tooth and nail to take something from you to which they have no right.
1:07
Mary: In my situation, this person dug in their heels and literally would not give me what was mine until I involved an attorney.
1:14
Mary: And finally, just to end the association, I paid them to give me what was already mine and get out of my life.
1:21
Mary: In the end, it was easier to accept terms that were unfair to me just to resolve the stalemate.
1:26
Mary: That situation to this day remains the worst conflict I've had to navigate in my life.
1:31
Mary: Knowing this person, I can't imagine what would it have been like if there had been a custody issue involved.
1:38
Mary: However, my guest today has a story that makes my experience look like a shoving match on the playground.
1:44
Mary: Lisa Johnson is the co-founder of Been There Got Out, a high conflict divorce strategist and certified domestic violence advocate who helps men and women all over the world navigate the legal system with an abusive ex.
1:58
Mary: She and her partner Chris coach people to help them navigate highly conflicted relationships.
2:04
Mary: She is the co-author of Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances.
2:13
Mary: And she has a new book coming out soon, and we'll talk more about that in our discussion.
2:17
Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, Lisa.
2:20
Mary: Thank you so much for hosting me.
2:22
Mary: Yeah, I'm excited to jump into this.
2:24
Mary: Um, and I always have people start by sharing their story.
2:28
Mary: And I think you have a lot of things to say, but give us sort of the highlights because I know it has fueled a lot of what you do now.
2:38
Mary: Okay.
2:38
Lisa: So I'm always like, hmm, where do you want me to start?
2:41
Lisa: So I'll start with, I guess, the end, um, the end of the marriage.
2:45
Lisa: So I was basically with my ex for nearly 20 years, married for almost 18.
2:52
Lisa: And I thought he was my best friend.
2:55
Lisa: I never expected that the entire time he was living a double life.
3:00
Lisa: Um, found that out about two years before the actual moving him out of the home, which took those full couple of years to get to happen.
3:09
Lisa: And so um, I never thought I would get a divorce.
3:12
Lisa: I thought that was the worst thing that anybody could do in terms of me, like uh ruining our intact family.
3:20
Lisa: And that was also the message was given to me by my ex that if I did divorce him, that our kids' lives would be destroyed.
3:27
Lisa: So that kept me kind of clinging on and doing everything I could to keep it going.
3:32
Lisa: But um, at some point it became more painful to stay than to go.
3:37
Lisa: So I met with an attorney.
3:39
Lisa: Um, and within 20 minutes of the consult, he said, yours is going to be one of the really bad ones, which was shocking to me because, like I said, I thought my ex was a good person who had just done some bad things and that we would just amicably separate and and um, you know, go our separate ways, but that's not what happened.
4:00
Lisa: And so what as my lawyer had predicted, the divorce ended up costing $100,000 and taking just about a year.
4:06
Lisa: I always say, I'm gonna pay that back forever.
4:08
Lisa: And then I spent another nine years in court dealing with him post-separation or post-judgment, um, mostly financial issues.
4:17
Lisa: And uh yeah, through so I represented myself for about seven and a half years through about a hundred court appearances in two states and uh prevailed.
4:27
Lisa: And I love to say that justice and karma took a very long time, but it was finally served beautifully.
4:32
Lisa: And the cherry on top was that I also represented myself at the appellate court level, the higher court, um, which I was told be very careful because it's very serious.
4:41
Lisa: But I did it, and not only did I win, but uh the case was so notable that it got published as case law for the state, which is a huge honor for an attorney.
4:51
Lisa: And everyone I've ever spoken to said they have never heard of a self-represented litigant or pro se being turned into case law.
4:59
Lisa: So that's one of my big um triumphs.
5:01
Lisa: And then along the way, I also submitted live testimony for something called Jennifer's Law.
5:08
Lisa: This was in 2021, and um it passed.
5:12
Lisa: And so my state of Connecticut became the third in America to have coercive control laws.
5:18
Lisa: We basically expanded our legal definition of domestic violence to include all of that invisible abuse that people don't seem to take as seriously besides physical.
5:27
Lisa: So, like emotional, verbal, psychological, financial, stalking, digital abuse, sexual abuse, revenge porn, legal abuse, which is my specialty, and all of those things that keep a person stuck in um the relationship and feeling like they cannot get away.
5:46
Lisa: So that was also a big victory.
5:48
Lisa: And at this point, maybe I think 10 or 11 states also have now um passed coercive control laws.
5:56
Mary: Oh my gosh.
5:57
Mary: Okay, so that was the highlight.
5:59
Mary: And you know, I when I hear stories like this and I talk to so many women and they are just living their life, and then there's a pivotal moment.
6:07
Mary: And I think for you, it sounds like there were several pivotal moments, but it ends up really opening up this whole new avenue that helps women help other people.
6:20
Mary: So that's it, it's just you know, turning something so awful.
6:24
Mary: I can't even imagine you going through it, like what that must have been like.
6:29
Mary: It sounds like it was endless.
6:31
Lisa: It was, and actually, I forgot to say the final thing that happened was on the day that my ex was finally, finally, finally ordered to pay the amounts and the overdue arreages and interest and penalties.
6:46
Lisa: Uh, I was I was so happy because I was like, finally, like it's gonna be done.
6:51
Lisa: And his lawyer followed me downstairs and came up to me outside and handed me papers saying that they were suing us for a million dollars in defamation, and then it went up to four million dollars in defamation.
7:04
Lisa: So it was like just when I thought it was finally ending, then there's another curveball, and that took another few months, but we got rid of that ourselves.
7:12
Lisa: But it was it was scary because this was post Johnny Depp and Amber Heard, and I just thought, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, but it was it was totally fine.
7:21
Mary: So, do you have legal training other than what you had to learn?
7:25
Lisa: No, but my master's degree is in education.
7:29
Lisa: I was a high school English teacher and I am a professional writer.
7:32
Lisa: And so all of those skills, which I didn't realize at the time, were really helping me.
7:38
Lisa: Plus, my dad and uncle are identical twins, and they happen to be patent attorneys.
7:43
Lisa: They are not litigators, they don't know anything about family law, which is its own Wild West, but they do speak some legalese, I like to say.
7:51
Lisa: So my dad was able to help me in the background, like as I would write these beautiful long speeches that were never to be said.
7:58
Lisa: This court is very short.
8:00
Lisa: Um, my dad would would listen to me and would tell me to write the word pause because I talk really fast, or he would say, that's gonna upset the judge.
8:09
Lisa: You don't want to do that.
8:10
Lisa: And you know, he he was good at helping me um just put together the procedural parts, but I I did have to go in by myself and and present.
8:19
Lisa: And court can be really, really scary and you have to pivot a lot because there's so much happening, and especially not being an attorney, you have to really pay attention to people's body language, especially the judge.
8:31
Lisa: So if the judge is, you know, looking the other way, looking at the clock, you have to change directions.
8:37
Lisa: So I had a lot of uh practice and I always say I got my best education in the trenches, but no, I don't have any legal training.
8:43
Lisa: I did consider going to law school after college, but my major was English.
8:48
Lisa: Um, I I always enjoyed my business.
8:51
Lisa: I took one, one, I took actually two classes in high school.
8:54
Lisa: It was like civil law, criminal law, and then in college I took business law.
9:00
Lisa: And I thought it was fascinating, but I I really loved teaching instead.
9:04
Mary: Well, I think they should have given you an honorary law degree at the end of all this.
9:08
Mary: So I'm thinking about so many things because my what I I'm a therapist.
9:12
Mary: So I'm thinking, first of all, I worked in, I was a high school counselor, so I had interactions with lots of students, lots of kids who were, I'm guessing you have kids, and what what led over into the post-divorce stuff was probably custody stuff and you know, uh child support and all of those things.
9:34
Mary: And I have seen that impact on kids.
9:37
Mary: So I can imagine that is where you got the energy to continue to keep fighting for things for your kids.
9:45
Lisa: Yeah, I mean, we luckily didn't have custody issues so much.
9:49
Lisa: I well, I mean, a lot of the clients that we work with are dealing with custody battles, so they're fighting over the kids.
9:57
Lisa: This is this very sad.
9:58
Lisa: And actually, my son made a comment once.
10:00
Lisa: He said, I wish dad had fought for us, but my ex did the opposite.
10:04
Lisa: He basically abandoned them.
10:06
Lisa: So when we split, it was almost like he discarded all of us together and we had open-ended visitation.
10:13
Lisa: I was like, Where are you?
10:15
Lisa: And he just didn't really show up.
10:17
Lisa: So um, it was very different from a lot of the scenarios that we hear about when we think about high conflict divorce.
10:25
Mary: So I'm also thinking you were with him for 20 years and then literally going to battle in the courtroom and having him sit there and know.
10:34
Mary: I mean, this history that you have with him.
10:36
Mary: Do you remember through all of it, I guess in the beginning, was there a moment when you really saw him for who he was?
10:44
Mary: Like, do you remember that?
10:46
Lisa: You know, there's it's like hindsight is 2020, and we always look back and go, why didn't I pay attention to the red flags?
10:52
Lisa: There were always signs that there was something going on in the background.
10:58
Lisa: But at the time, I was also very young.
11:00
Lisa: I was about 23 when we got together.
11:03
Lisa: And so um, he was seven years older than me.
11:06
Lisa: And that's one thing that actually attracted me to him was I felt like he's a man.
11:10
Lisa: Like he's, you know, before this, I was dating these teenagers and men children, and he was responsible, he had a great career.
11:18
Lisa: Um, he was in information technology, he owned a home.
11:22
Lisa: And in my head, I thought, because I also had before we met, I had backpacked through Europe.
11:29
Lisa: And um, my first book is actually about that.
11:31
Lisa: But I lived in Hungary post-communism.
11:34
Lisa: So um it was very uh like unstable, but super fun.
11:38
Lisa: And in my head, I got this idea that when I come back to America, I should settle down at 23.
11:44
Lisa: I should settle down, like I should get a job and and really grow up.
11:48
Lisa: And so meeting him kind of in my head filled this fantasy of like this is if I'm with this kind of person, he's very stable, you know, traveling, backpacking, you never know if you could afford things.
12:00
Lisa: So I thought he's, you know, if we have a family together, I won't have to worry about that kind of instability.
12:07
Lisa: It was complete opposite.
12:09
Lisa: But but um also this was um, I was never into technology, and he was.
12:15
Lisa: And one of the things he told me from the beginning was that his job as a technology person required him to be on the computer a lot, but also because he was so smart that a lot of people didn't understand him.
12:27
Lisa: And so I probably wouldn't be able to completely understand him.
12:30
Lisa: And that's why he was spending a lot of time in these chat rooms in AOL, because that's what was happening in the 90s, um, because he was connecting with people who really understood his gifted level of intelligence.
12:42
Lisa: And so there was this sort of grooming going on from the very beginning that he was so brilliant, and I just couldn't ever reach his level.
12:50
Lisa: So, you know, just let him kind of do his thing.
12:53
Lisa: And I didn't, I just accepted that because when we get together with someone that we love, we trust them.
12:59
Mary: Yeah.
13:00
Mary: Well, and I think when you start to recognize it, I know women can it, you know, it comes to you slowly.
13:07
Mary: Like you said, you you'll feel something, it's not quite right, and you ignore it.
13:11
Mary: And then I think when kids come into the picture, it can cloud it even more.
13:15
Mary: You told this story of someone who is very self-sufficient doing this backpacking, and you know, and I think sometimes when we end up in these situations, we can feel ashamed.
13:24
Mary: Like, how did I ever let it happen?
13:27
Mary: But it's so insidious.
13:29
Mary: It starts and then it gets out of control.
13:32
Mary: So I think that's also what makes it so important what you're doing, because helping women and supporting them to recognize that some of us fall into these things, like the thing that I shared in the beginning of you know, this episode.
13:46
Mary: I could not believe that happened to me because that wasn't that long ago.
13:50
Mary: And I'm not a stupid woman.
13:52
Mary: So I think that it's, you know, again, it's not about being, you know, how smart you are.
13:57
Mary: It's just sometimes there are people that are very good at you use the word grooming.
14:02
Mary: And I think it's important to know that.
14:04
Mary: So I know one of the things you talk about is how to kind of anticipate if you're going to be in a situation like maybe you're thinking of leaving, you're contemplating divorce.
14:14
Mary: How do you know what are some of the signs that it might be a pretty contentious separation?
14:20
Lisa: Okay.
14:21
Lisa: Well, first of all, let me just clarify.
14:23
Lisa: I want to comment on something you said about like intelligence.
14:26
Lisa: Domestic violence affects one in three women and one in five men at some point, at least once during their lives.
14:33
Lisa: Those numbers are tremendous.
14:35
Lisa: Now, the people that we work with tend to be highly educated, super successful professionals.
14:42
Lisa: And so there's an added level of shame because they are perceived as role models and people that others look up to.
14:49
Lisa: And that often makes them unable to talk about what they're experiencing because they'll hear things like, I never thought you, of all people, would fall for something like that.
14:59
Lisa: Or why did you stay so long?
15:01
Lisa: And so that's why we hide things, but don't think that it's just happening to a few people.
15:07
Lisa: Every time, anywhere I go, I mention what I do.
15:10
Lisa: I always have people coming up to me saying, that's my situation, that's someone I love situation.
15:16
Lisa: So just know this is this is like rampant, this these kinds of things.
15:21
Lisa: And often it does happen to the most successful, responsible, beautiful human beings because they are picked as targets.
15:29
Lisa: The the irony is that we blame ourselves for being foolish for for falling for people like this, but we have to keep in mind that that abusive people target, we call our shining stars, like the most amazing human beings because we make them look good.
15:47
Lisa: We polish their star.
15:49
Lisa: And that's why they are so angry when the relationship ends, because now it's like we've destroyed whether we chose to leave or they did, but now that perfect image, because appearances matter a lot to people like that, has been ruined and things split.
16:04
Lisa: We're now they're the victim and we're the villain, and everything is blamed on us.
16:09
Lisa: Um, so I forgot your original.
16:12
Mary: No, you're you actually are segueing into it.
16:14
Mary: And I really appreciate that you said that.
16:16
Mary: That's why I wanted to clarify.
16:17
Mary: I want to use the word stupid because we are very quick to assign words to ourselves, to it, like, you know, women use the word selfish or I was so stupid.
16:26
Mary: And no, you weren't stupid.
16:28
Mary: Again, as somebody who works in the mental health field, it's very common to encounter someone that has a different set of rules in how they operate in a relationship.
16:40
Mary: And we tend to often think it must be me.
16:43
Mary: Nobody would intentionally do that.
16:45
Mary: No one would intentionally lie to me.
16:47
Mary: No one would intentionally, whatever it is.
16:49
Mary: And so we spin it around and think, well, maybe I'm doing something wrong or I'm misinterpreting.
16:55
Mary: So I'm glad that you brought that up because it's really important to understand that dynamic.
17:00
Mary: And I know you've used the word narcissist, and I'm always really careful because I think we use those words narcissist, sociopath without really understanding.
17:11
Mary: But in these situations, it is those traits of, like you're saying, I need to look good.
17:17
Mary: No one really understands me.
17:19
Mary: I'm special and people want to appear special.
17:22
Mary: Or in the case of if it's more sociopathic, it is intentional hurts, like really trying to go for the jugulars.
17:30
Mary: But I think if we use a broad paintbrush, we can say it's someone who is in a relationship functioning with a different set of rules.
17:39
Mary: They're not coming from a place of loving their partner, it's often loving themselves or loving their own objectives.
17:45
Mary: And it's hard to see that.
17:46
Mary: So I'm really glad that you clarified.
17:49
Lisa: And the question was And I remember the question indicators of high conflict.
17:52
Lisa: Yes.
17:53
Lisa: Okay.
17:53
Lisa: So remember what I had said.
17:56
Lisa: Like I never pictured this being high conflict.
17:59
Lisa: My ex always seemed really reasonable, but he was deceitful.
18:04
Lisa: So I told you about this attorney that I chose as my divorce attorney who predicted that mine was going to be really bad.
18:12
Lisa: And so before I wrote the book, the first book that we did, I interviewed him and I said, Eric, how did you know that mine was going to be bad?
18:20
Lisa: He had never um thought about the specific things, but as he was talking to me, I organized them into a few different factors.
18:27
Lisa: But one of the most important indicators of high conflict divorce is somebody who does have some kind of mental illness and or active addiction.
18:36
Lisa: And again, active addiction, I'm not talking about someone in recovery, but someone who's not in their right mind has impaired judgment.
18:44
Lisa: And so often they can't even make decisions that are in their own best interest.
18:50
Lisa: And so they will do things without thinking about the consequences.
18:54
Lisa: And they often will prolong the conflict, which goes into another factor, which is anger that does not subside.
19:01
Lisa: So usually within four to six months of a typical split, people are angry.
19:06
Lisa: And then at that point, it's like, all right, already.
19:09
Lisa: It's getting really expensive.
19:11
Lisa: Like, how about we just settle down a little bit, pay the bills, figure out what's best for the kids, and move on with our lives.
19:17
Lisa: That is the opposite of what happens in high conflict, separation and divorce, because our exes want to keep it going.
19:25
Lisa: They want to continue the engagement and the anger does not subside.
19:29
Lisa: So they will do anything to continue to punish people like us.
19:35
Lisa: We we often have heard it called like a clinging kind of hatred.
19:39
Lisa: And again, it's because, you know, there's there's usually deep feelings of abandonment when a relationship ends.
19:44
Lisa: Again, it doesn't matter who who caused the end of it, but um it's so uncomfortable for someone like that to deal with those feelings of discomfort that it often transforms into rage.
19:57
Lisa: And then again, there's that splitting.
19:58
Lisa: They're the victim, you're the villain, and they will do anything to destroy you.
20:03
Lisa: They'll try to ruin your reputation, they'll spend tons of money, they'll spend all the kids' money.
20:07
Lisa: They don't care about the impact all the conflict has on the kids.
20:11
Lisa: So it's really, really difficult to um to do it like short and sweet with someone like this because they just want to hurt you and they don't care about that scorched earth that happens along the way.
20:24
Lisa: Another thing is somebody who feels entitled to um all of the assets and finances.
20:31
Lisa: So often I say the quote, it's like, what's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine too.
20:36
Lisa: So they feel like, why should I have to comply with the discovery process?
20:40
Lisa: Why should I have to show you what's owned?
20:43
Lisa: Because that's my money.
20:44
Lisa: And I know with my ex, there were all kinds of things, which I later learned the term financial abuse, where he would he owned a lot of real estate with his sister.
20:53
Lisa: He would send things to his sister's address.
20:56
Lisa: He would tell me that I didn't understand, that taxes were being done separately, and I just didn't question.
21:02
Lisa: And I signed things I didn't really pay attention to.
21:05
Lisa: I let him take care of a lot of the money stuff.
21:08
Lisa: It felt like I was in control because I had access to our joint account and was able to pay the bills, but there were all kinds of hidden accounts that came out later and stuff with the real estate that it was like, oh my God, wow, you know, all that stuff that he just thought, well, it's my money.
21:25
Lisa: It's my stuff.
21:26
Lisa: So those are some factors that indicate high conflict divorce, the ones that cost lots of money and go on for a long time.
21:34
Mary: Yeah.
21:34
Mary: And bringing up financial abuse, that's something that we don't talk about.
21:39
Mary: And it can be one of the most paralyzing parts because slowly things are taken away, or there's, you know, barriers to getting to the money, or like you're saying, there are accounts that, you know, you it's your spouse.
21:52
Mary: Why would you read the fine print?
21:55
Mary: Um, and you know, it's I think it's a hard line to walk because there's trust, right?
22:00
Mary: You want to have trust with your spouse, but I think there's also a sense of autonomy that we need to have when we're in these situations to really, I mean, make make sure you understand where the money is in your relationship.
22:13
Mary: So I think that is really important.
22:15
Lisa: Yeah.
22:16
Lisa: Financial abuse is present in 99% of unhealthy relationships.
22:21
Lisa: And there's again, there's so many levels of it, but a lot of it is not understanding what's going on, having to ask for an allowance, being made to feel like you shouldn't have access.
22:32
Lisa: You don't need to know what's going on.
22:34
Lisa: And again, that creates that sense of dependency as I need this person.
22:38
Lisa: We've seen we've seen so many cases where a woman was saying, you know, the children and I were basically living in poverty.
22:45
Lisa: My husband was saying we had no money.
22:46
Lisa: And then during the divorce, I found out there was millions of dollars.
22:49
Lisa: He had a whole other apartment in Manhattan.
22:52
Lisa: And I can't believe that we were living like that.
22:54
Lisa: We didn't, I didn't even have a car to use.
22:57
Lisa: And they were presenting this scenario that, you know, of course, the double standard, he's doing what he wants, and and she and the kids are living, you know, in a very difficult life.
23:07
Mary: So if there's somebody now who's in the middle of this mess, like you went through, and they're not seeing the end of it, they're seeing these behaviors of, you know, this sustained anger and retribution.
23:21
Mary: What would you say to them?
23:23
Mary: Is there how did you cope?
23:25
Mary: What can you offer to somebody else?
23:27
Lisa: Oh my gosh.
23:27
Lisa: Like it was very, very isolating.
23:30
Lisa: And it is very isolating.
23:31
Lisa: And so what I was dealing with is we call it legal abuse or litigation abuse, stalking through the court, um, judicial terrorism, paper abuse.
23:40
Lisa: So that's really where someone is stuck in the legal system and um, you know, trying to get orders to be complied with, or dealing with someone filing lots of motions against you and trying to live your life with that.
23:54
Lisa: So it can feel like your life is consumed by a terrorist and you're just stuck and you're bleeding money and energy, and you can't focus on your job and you might lose your job.
24:04
Lisa: And so it's really hard.
24:05
Lisa: So it's very important to find support.
24:08
Lisa: So we often talk about how people in this situation are like the surface of the table.
24:13
Lisa: And so the more legs they have, the more stable it can be.
24:17
Lisa: But each leg has its pros and cons.
24:20
Lisa: So, for example, friends and family are great if they can support you, but a lot of our clients have come from unhealthy families of origin and or have been isolated from their support systems.
24:31
Lisa: So they don't have friends and family.
24:32
Lisa: And even when they do have friends and family, most of them are not trained in domestic violence.
24:37
Lisa: And they'll say things like, Well, why didn't you just leave?
24:39
Lisa: Why'd you stay so long?
24:41
Lisa: How could you have fallen from?
24:42
Lisa: So then that makes you feel even more alone.
24:44
Lisa: Plus, there's something called negative advocates, which is a term coined by Bill Eddy, who's an expert in high conflict situations.
24:53
Lisa: He founded the High Conflict Institute.
24:55
Lisa: And he talks about how sometimes the people we love will fan the flames of conflict by being like, you deserve this, your ex shouldn't be doing this.
25:03
Lisa: Why doesn't the judge just do this?
25:04
Lisa: And it's like, I'm dealing with my own stuff and these strong emotions of these other people.
25:10
Lisa: Sometimes lawyers can be negative advocates.
25:12
Lisa: So that's that cannot be healthy.
25:14
Lisa: So, friends and family, then we have the lawyer.
25:17
Lisa: So when you're going through a divorce, you need to have a lawyer because you need to know your legal rights.
25:21
Lisa: Plus, it's the foundation of everything.
25:24
Lisa: So I know I went pro se, but it was post-judgment, it was post-divorce.
25:28
Lisa: I never could have done that like on my own.
25:31
Lisa: So you really need to have a lawyer.
25:32
Lisa: But the lawyer's job is to be your ally and your advocate and to basically translate your case into the law.
25:38
Lisa: But for so many of us, this is so emotional that we'll rely on our lawyer.
25:42
Lisa: And I certainly did, and that's why my divorce was so expensive because my lawyer was my best friend for a year and I paid him lots of money and he was wonderful, but I didn't realize that there were other resources that I should have been tapping into besides him.
25:55
Lisa: And lawyers also don't like cases like ours.
25:58
Lisa: Like my wonderful lawyer said, Lisa, please don't ever send me any of your clients because I don't need the headache.
26:04
Lisa: You know, I'm not interested in these long, awful cases.
26:08
Lisa: So then we have a therapist.
26:10
Lisa: So often you need a therapist or a domestic violence advocate to help you work through what's going on and to help you heal.
26:17
Lisa: Unfortunately, many therapists are not um trained in the court procedures and they have given awful advice without meaning to, like just gray rock or don't communicate or just take the kids and go and cross state lines, and then people end up losing custody.
26:34
Lisa: And so you really um rely on your therapist to help you heal and to work with your children, but not to give you legal strategic advice because it can really, really harm you.
26:47
Lisa: Um, and so then Chris and I are the one of the last legs.
26:51
Lisa: I'm not talking about like real estate professionals and financial advisors, um, who certainly are are helpful for many cases too, but we are high-conflict divorce strategists who specialize in legal abuse.
27:02
Lisa: My own experience in court, my my background training.
27:05
Lisa: I was trained as a crisis counselor in college, so I had that too.
27:09
Lisa: But um, we kind of fill the gap between what attorneys are not trained to do and therapists don't understand.
27:15
Lisa: So attorneys are also logical.
27:17
Lisa: And so they tend to think, all right, this case is gonna settle down, everybody's gonna do what's fair and do what's best for the kids.
27:24
Lisa: But that's not what our exes care about.
27:27
Lisa: They care about themselves.
27:28
Lisa: And so everything has to be approached very, very differently when you're dealing with an individual like that, because it won't follow the normal cadence of, let's say, divorce.
27:39
Lisa: And so we always joke that our clients, all, including me, belong to the my lawyer says this is the craziest case I've ever had club, because they just don't know what to do and they get fatigued.
27:49
Lisa: That's why it is so important to have this team of people that are helping you get through it because you're especially if you have children, the more stressed out you are, the more your kids are gonna feel it.
28:01
Lisa: And they can often feel like they have to be responsible for our emotional health.
28:06
Lisa: And that's not healthy.
28:08
Lisa: So the more self-regulated that we can be, the more we can sort of have people our own age and you know, our peers like helping take care of us, then our kids can feel like they can just live their lives as much as possible.
28:20
Lisa: And the whole crazy divorce situation is more peripheral rather than like consuming them like it consumes us.
28:28
Lisa: It's really important to try to shield the kids from as much conflict as possible because it it does impact them significantly.
28:36
Mary: It sounds like you're talking about you almost have a whole team when you're in a situation like this.
28:42
Lisa: Yeah.
28:43
Mary: Well, and I'm sure it does consume you.
28:45
Mary: I don't know how you can think about anything else because it sounds like sometimes you're very powerless.
28:51
Lisa: Yeah.
28:51
Lisa: I mean, I always think about the three emotions that characterize someone going through legal abuse, where there's yeah, you know, years you're stuck in the court system.
29:01
Lisa: And so I experienced these for those all of those days of all of those 10 years.
29:07
Lisa: Uh, one is a sense of rage.
29:09
Lisa: Every morning I would wake up and for a moment I would forget that what my life was was, and then I would be like, I'm so mad.
29:17
Lisa: Like, this is so unfair.
29:20
Lisa: And I found that I wasn't even angry at my ex.
29:23
Lisa: I was angry at the system for allowing it.
29:26
Lisa: Because the more that things continued to go along where there wouldn't be consequences, where he was found in contempt five times and nothing really happened, it just emboldened the abuse to continue.
29:38
Lisa: And I just thought this is this is like I'm so mad that this is going on and how long is it gonna take?
29:43
Lisa: Then the second is this sense of injustice.
29:46
Lisa: Like here, the system that I'm turning to for relief is making things worse.
29:51
Lisa: And when is it gonna stop?
29:53
Lisa: And that leads to the last feeling of despair is like it's never going to end.
29:58
Lisa: It just year after year.
29:59
Lisa: Year after year, hundreds of court, you know, dozens of court appearances where it was like I kept thinking now is going to be the day.
30:06
Lisa: And my partner, Chris, would sometimes come with me and he'd be like, There's only so many times.
30:10
Lisa: And I'd be like, Be quiet, like, stop.
30:12
Lisa: That's not helpful.
30:12
Lisa: Yeah.
30:13
Lisa: And I'd come out and he'd be like, and I'd say, Nope.
30:16
Lisa: Again, like nothing's happening.
30:18
Lisa: It was so aggravating.
30:20
Lisa: So that's the thing that our people are living with every single day.
30:25
Lisa: And what's difficult is you cannot show these emotions in court.
30:30
Lisa: You can't show it to judges.
30:32
Lisa: You can't show it to custody evaluators.
30:34
Lisa: You need to have those feelings and get them out elsewhere.
30:38
Lisa: And on Sundays, we actually have a weekly legal abuse support group.
30:41
Lisa: And one of our clients, who is also a mental health professional, because we have lots of lawyers and mental health professionals among you know other very successful people.
30:50
Lisa: She is just beside herself.
30:53
Lisa: She's furious.
30:54
Lisa: She kind of went off on like how she feels and how unfair it is.
30:58
Lisa: And it was like, I'm so glad that she was able to get it out.
31:01
Lisa: And everyone there could relate to those feelings.
31:05
Lisa: But we knew like this is for here.
31:07
Lisa: This is to get it out, have the outlet, but like cannot do this in court.
31:11
Lisa: So we do a lot of work on proper presentation.
31:15
Mary: Yeah.
31:16
Mary: Wow.
31:16
Mary: You've covered so many bases.
31:18
Mary: Two things occur to me.
31:20
Mary: One is you're right with the emotion.
31:21
Mary: I think not just because of the legal part of it, but someone who has this type of personality disorder, they feed on the emotion.
31:30
Mary: And that's partly why things are so difficult.
31:34
Mary: If you acquiesce to everything and you're like, yeah, whatever.
31:37
Mary: As soon as you started to stand on your own two feet and take a stand against something, that's when the flares came up and the anger came out.
31:47
Mary: And so keeping um the emotions in check also helps that situation.
31:53
Mary: But I'm thinking about his lawyer.
31:56
Lisa: Multiple lawyers.
31:58
Mary: Wow.
31:58
Mary: Because I can't imagine being someone with as a good intentioned lawyer having a client like that and being okay with the manipulation and all of the things that went into that.
32:12
Lisa: They often choose lawyers that are very similar to them.
32:15
Lisa: They do not usually choose like really above-board lawyers because, you know, I think back to the different lawyers that my ex chose.
32:25
Lisa: If they had just said, look, you've got these orders, you have this agreement, you better just pay what's owed because the longer this continues, the more you're going to end up paying.
32:34
Lisa: You're going to have to keep taking off work.
32:36
Lisa: You have all this interest and penalties.
32:38
Lisa: This is public record.
32:40
Lisa: This is affecting your reputation.
32:42
Lisa: No lawyer said that to him.
32:44
Lisa: Instead, they just kept attacking me, making it me feel like I didn't have the right to ask for the relief that I had already been awarded, making me feel like I was being some kind of like vigilante that was working outside the system.
32:58
Lisa: And it lawyers will often gaslight us into thinking like by even standing up for our rights, that we're committing a crime.
33:08
Lisa: And I remember one of the lawyers, um, the Connecticut lawyer would always say to me, Well, you know, Lisa, you don't really understand because you're not an attorney.
33:16
Lisa: That same attorney not only lied in court countless times, but while we were arguing at the appellate level, she lied on the record to a panel of judges that were deciding the case.
33:28
Lisa: And I called, I said, wait a second, because she claimed that he had paid the one of the amounts that was due.
33:32
Lisa: And I said, That's completely not true.
33:35
Lisa: He he's never paid that.
33:36
Lisa: That's why we're here.
33:37
Lisa: And the the judge paused the hearing and said to her, Wait a second, is that true?
33:41
Lisa: And she goes, Well, I thought, I thought she goes, No, no, no, no, no, no.
33:44
Lisa: You're gonna have to now submit um something like uh like an affidavit to correct the record.
33:50
Lisa: And when they actually published the case as case law, my favorite part was one of the little footnotes that said that his lawyer was presenting information that was devoid of law and fact.
34:02
Lisa: So they basically, that is the worst thing you can say about someone who's a lawyer who's supposed to be operating in law, in fact, that she was not doing either.
34:11
Lisa: And I thought, how embarrassing for you! Like this is your career, and I'm not a lawyer.
34:16
Lisa: And here you are now because you pushed it this far by not telling the truth, by encouraging your client not to be truthful and honest and above board.
34:25
Lisa: And now look what happens.
34:26
Lisa: Like, how does this affect your entire professional reputation?
34:30
Lisa: So it was really, really difficult dealing with some of these people.
34:34
Lisa: A lot of them, um, including my exes, tend to be bullying.
34:38
Lisa: They not only bullied me, they bullied uh when I my my first attorney, and occasionally I would ask attorneys to help me do parts of it, and they got bullied as well.
34:47
Lisa: And it was just like, this is crazy.
34:49
Lisa: I might as well just do it myself.
34:50
Lisa: And that felt really good, also triumphing, not just over my ex, but but his attorneys.
34:55
Mary: Yeah.
34:56
Mary: Well, and keeping your head in all of it, being present enough in that situation to recognize she's saying something that's not true, and then having the courage to call it, call it.
35:06
Mary: It was scary.
35:07
Lisa: I mean, I had to check with my dad because I would, I would get, I would get these filings.
35:11
Lisa: I'd be like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my god.
35:13
Lisa: My dad'd be like, let me just read it.
35:15
Lisa: And he would look at it and he'd be like, This case law doesn't exist.
35:19
Lisa: This is this doesn't even relate to what she's saying.
35:22
Lisa: Like, this is so full of holes.
35:24
Lisa: Like, don't worry about it.
35:25
Lisa: But if it were just me on my own, I I mean, it was really, really terrifying.
35:30
Lisa: Every time I would get an order, I would shake.
35:34
Lisa: And it got to the point, even when it was, they were always in my favor, it just they weren't being enforced, but I would still like tremble.
35:42
Lisa: I'd have to read it two or three times.
35:43
Lisa: Even to this day, sometimes I go out to the mailbox and I'm nervous to open it because there were so many mailings from the court to be like, oh my gosh, what is it now?
35:53
Lisa: Like, what's the decision?
35:54
Lisa: And this is even while being victorious all these times.
35:58
Lisa: Like, I don't think I ever got bad orders, but I still felt like, what if the judge changes her mind?
36:04
Lisa: What if, what if somehow they don't get it?
36:07
Lisa: Like, what if nobody ever does anything about this?
36:09
Lisa: So it was just this constant sense of fear.
36:12
Lisa: And that's the same thing that our clients experience, especially in just communicating with their ex, because they live with this sense of dread of like, what's the next thing that's gonna happen?
36:22
Lisa: They're gonna try to take the kids away, they're gonna try to change the amount of money, like they're gonna file new motions on me, um, you know, trying to say I'm an unfit parent.
36:31
Lisa: So it's just this terrorist attack, like I said.
36:35
Mary: Wow, so traumatic.
36:36
Mary: And so you bring up the kids, and I know you you shared your experience.
36:41
Mary: There wasn't really a custody fight.
36:43
Mary: But how do you help parents who that is the biggest part of this where they're worried about the ex is going to try to poison the kids against them or misrepresent things?
36:55
Mary: How do you help them or what advice do you give them?
36:57
Lisa: Uh, so there's a quote that I love that I got from an interview I did with a bodyguard who actually started a nonprofit with domestic violence called Protection from Abuse.
37:06
Lisa: His name is Steve Dana, and he says, an abuser's greatest tool is fear.
37:11
Lisa: And that is the thing that paralyzes people at all stages.
37:16
Lisa: So we have people at the very beginning of the process who don't know what to expect, and their ex's voices in their head saying, You don't have rights to this.
37:23
Lisa: This is mine, this is how it's going to be.
37:25
Lisa: And they believe it.
37:26
Lisa: So educating them on the custody factors as well as something called the alienation factors and what to expect and what's reasonable and what's typical based on their situation can help assuage those fears because it's like, oh, but my ex, and they'll be like, but my but my ex is, but I'm just like, but that's not, that's not real.
37:45
Lisa: That's why it's also so important to talk to an attorney and learn what reality is and to not get pressured into thinking that that person's gonna be your ally and you they're gonna be fair and above board because unless it's super amicable, they're out for themselves.
38:00
Lisa: And so you need to take care of yourself.
38:02
Lisa: So addressing that fear is really important and getting their voice out of your head is important.
38:08
Lisa: So, first understanding what the custody fact, best interest factors are, custody factors, alienation factors are.
38:14
Lisa: But for me, the best way to start dealing with someone like this is what we do with everyone at every stage, and we call it strategic communication.
38:24
Lisa: And that's uh we actually have a course.
38:26
Lisa: It's called How to Communicate with Your Ex Without Destroying Your Case or Losing Your Mind.
38:30
Lisa: Because, like I said, most of our clients have PTSD, at least when they meet us.
38:35
Lisa: And so when you learn how to communicate properly with your ex in writing only, where you're writing to your ex, but you're writing for the invisible audience, always it's a judge, a custody evaluator, an attorney for the child, mediator, whoever, you want to make sure that you are presenting as the best co-parent ever, knowing what matters to the court because you'll know those factors.
39:01
Lisa: At the same time, you're documenting that person's patterns of behavior over time and the impact it has on your children and on your relationship with your children, because we know that they're gonna try to create what's called a loyalty conflict, like you're with me or against me with the kids.
39:16
Lisa: And that's the like that's the topic of our upcoming book and course.
39:19
Lisa: So I think knowledge is power.
39:22
Lisa: And once you understand what's going on, there's a lot less to be afraid of.
39:26
Lisa: Because even if it's like, oh no, no, like what's the worst case scenario?
39:30
Lisa: A lot of times when we talk about it, then we can come up with a plan.
39:34
Lisa: And also to keep in mind that nothing generally, except maybe in New Jersey, a restraining order, but most things are not forever.
39:42
Lisa: Most things you can go back after a year and a half to two years to get a modification of something.
39:48
Lisa: So we often say it's not that you lose, it's that you give up too soon because you lose hope.
39:53
Lisa: And that's why it's so important to have what we call the marathon mindset and get support from a team of people who are like, yes, let's say you got like a gut punch and this is awful, but there's more to be done.
40:04
Lisa: This is not the end of the story.
40:06
Lisa: So if you have to wait another year or two years, we'll deal with it and we'll build a really powerful case.
40:12
Lisa: We'll do whatever we can, but not to just say, okay, my kids have been turned against me and they're never going to talk to me again.
40:18
Lisa: And, you know, I don't I don't have the energy to fight my ex.
40:21
Lisa: Like that, it's it's really important to not not just let your your kids go.
40:26
Lisa: And it is really scary when that person is turning the kids against you, but there's a lot you can do legally, and there's a lot even more so that you can do outside of court.
40:37
Mary: Lisa, this is amazing what you do for people.
40:40
Mary: Like I didn't even realize that there were people like you that can coach, I mean, coach, mentor, support with all of these resources kind of behind the scenes or as a safety net.
40:54
Mary: I think that's amazing.
40:56
Lisa: Thanks.
40:56
Lisa: So I like to say I don't think we have too much competition.
40:59
Lisa: I don't really know of any competition that we have because I think just the experience, you know, I don't know anyone who's been in the legal system for as long as I have and and had the victories and all of that.
41:11
Lisa: So um it can be really helpful because people are just devastated when they meet us.
41:17
Lisa: And it's good to be able to say, I feel you.
41:21
Lisa: I have been there for a really long time, but I can promise you that you can get through this with the right support.
41:28
Lisa: Plus, even in the midst of all those years in court, I'm at the love of my life.
41:34
Lisa: We have a business together now.
41:36
Lisa: It's the best job ever.
41:37
Lisa: We we help save people's families.
41:40
Lisa: Like it's so rewarding.
41:41
Lisa: And the irony is that I couldn't go back to teaching high school because I was in court all the time.
41:47
Lisa: So my kids got older, they went off to college.
41:49
Lisa: I was like, I'm ready to come back.
41:51
Lisa: Couldn't do it because I kept dropping everything to go back to court.
41:55
Lisa: And then COVID hit.
41:56
Lisa: And I was like, you know what?
41:58
Lisa: Actually, I think I can teach.
42:00
Lisa: And now I can do it at a global level.
42:03
Lisa: Like we have clients in India and Africa, all over North America.
42:08
Lisa: And we always say the laws are different, but the issues are the same.
42:12
Lisa: And so it's so rewarding to see the transformation in the people that we work with.
42:17
Lisa: We call it from puddle to ninja, to see these people who have like, they're so successful in other areas, they're an absolute emotional mess and they feel embarrassed and ashamed because they're like, I'm a mental health professional, like, how could I not recognize this?
42:31
Lisa: Or I'm a lawyer, like, how can I not be able to deal with this person?
42:34
Lisa: And then to watch them sometimes very quickly be like, oh my gosh, like I'm not scared and I don't believe this person anymore.
42:43
Lisa: And I can't believe I ever believed that.
42:45
Lisa: And now we can laugh about it.
42:46
Lisa: And there's so much humor with these people.
42:48
Lisa: They're so nutty, like the things that they say and do, that it's just, yeah, we always have lots of inspiration for hysterical content.
42:59
Mary: Well, I think this is so hopeful.
43:00
Mary: I mean, everything you're saying, like even your resilience, and there could be somebody that had walked the path that you did and are just really mired in bitterness.
43:10
Mary: And I can imagine there were times you felt bitter, but I feel like you just rewrote your whole story by persevering and you know, and your dad, you have a cool dad.
43:24
Lisa: I know.
43:24
Lisa: I mean, that was such a bonding opportunity.
43:27
Lisa: My dad and uncle are now 85, and we see we get together for lunch every single Thursday.
43:33
Mary: That's great.
43:34
Lisa: Yeah.
43:35
Mary: That's great.
43:35
Lisa: And thank God we're not doing legal stuff though.
43:38
Mary: Yeah.
43:38
Mary: Now you can just talk about every weekend.
43:41
Lisa: Ugh, yeah.
43:42
Lisa: But I couldn't have done it without my dad.
43:44
Lisa: That's great.
43:45
Lisa: Yeah.
43:45
Mary: So, okay, so you have a book.
43:47
Mary: Tell us again the name of the book that you already published.
43:50
Lisa: Okay, I'll show you.
43:51
Lisa: So it's called Been There, Got Out, Toxic Relationships, High Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances.
43:59
Lisa: So that's a lot about like what it's like to separate or divorce or deal with a custody issue with one of these very difficult people, what to expect, how to choose the right lawyer, et cetera, et cetera.
44:10
Lisa: So, like our brand is practical, actionable advice.
44:13
Lisa: So it's very like try this, this, this, this, this.
44:16
Lisa: Um, the next book I am really excited about.
44:19
Lisa: It's called When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You.
44:22
Lisa: We have a course that I'm working on that's like 20 plus hours related to it, but it deals with the topic, it's a controversial label of parental alienation.
44:31
Lisa: It's also called poisoning the well, um, sometimes abuse by proxy or a type of coercive control, or when a child rejects a parent because the other parent has caused a rift between them, a rupture that is unnatural.
44:46
Lisa: So unfortunately, this is probably one of the most common things that we see in our community because we only deal with extreme cases and domestic violence.
44:56
Lisa: And it makes perfect sense because it's like, how can they still hurt you post-separation?
45:02
Lisa: Money, the court, and your children.
45:04
Lisa: And money and the court go hand in hand and your kids last the longest.
45:08
Lisa: And so that's why they will try to get in their heads and make them turn against you.
45:14
Lisa: And so we have many heartbroken clients who are figuring out ways to try to get the kids back.
45:20
Lisa: And we have had some incredible success stories.
45:25
Lisa: Um, so I feel like putting a book out that's based on hundreds of interviews and just our own experience with our clients and having some success stories.
45:37
Lisa: Also, a very close friend of mine had her two girls turned against her and no contact for eight years.
45:44
Lisa: And in the process of writing the book, they came back to her being in their 20s and um they let me interview them individually.
45:52
Mary: Wow.
45:53
Lisa: And so there's a chapter in the book that's describes what it's like from the child's perspective, because many parents who have been alienated from their kids assume that their kids hate them and don't want anything to do with them, but they don't understand that their kids are also victims of domestic violence and they're basically like hostages.
46:12
Lisa: And so if you just believe your ex's narrative that they want nothing to do with you and your kids are rejecting you, and you just need to like move on with your life and forget about them, you're you're doing the worst thing possible is because you're basically sealing the deal and you're leaving them with the terrorist who has convinced them that one of their primary attachment figures has abandoned them, which is just not true.
46:37
Lisa: So it's and you know, we think kids are gonna stay kids, but these kids grow up into adults and they've got the rest of their lives.
46:44
Lisa: And so we have to think about the long-term effects of um having a child turned against us and really, really fight for for that relationship to repair.
46:55
Mary: Yeah, for sure.
46:56
Mary: So when will your second book be out?
46:59
Lisa: January.
47:00
Lisa: Oh, exciting! Yes, yes, and the course, I'm like, it's gonna be ready.
47:04
Lisa: It's like two-thirds done.
47:06
Lisa: And every time I'm working, I'm like, oh, there's more, but there's more, there's more.
47:10
Lisa: I like the book itself.
47:11
Lisa: I think I included 52 different experts, like advice and stuff from them too.
47:17
Lisa: So it's not like Chris and I don't talk about our own stories really.
47:21
Lisa: We we take stuff from people that again are also working in this this field every single day.
47:26
Lisa: So lawyers and therapists and coaches and people, trauma experts that can help efficiently and effectively deal with this issue.
47:35
Lisa: But it is not easy.
47:38
Mary: No, and I think it's important to note that Chris had his own situation, right?
47:43
Mary: So we, even though this show is really a podcast for women, it is not just men that are the ones that are difficult in these situations, that men also have their own difficulties and challenges and struggles with wives and all of those things.
48:00
Lisa: Yeah, we always say abuse is a human issue, not a gender issue.
48:04
Lisa: And actually, our legal abuse support group, um, I like to say we do a very unusual thing in the domestic violence space in that we combine our male and female clients together for that group.
48:15
Lisa: And it is incredible to see men and women supporting each other.
48:20
Lisa: It's especially interesting for women to hear the perspective of male victims of domestic violence because they see they have a lot more in common than they ever expected.
48:31
Lisa: And a lot of times we always welcome like our clients to come on if they want with their partners or family members.
48:37
Lisa: And so we have a number of couples that will come to the group together, and often the, you know, it'll be like a man and a woman, and the woman will be speaking for her partner, her husband about like how he's been so effective and affected and how her own life is affected by this female terrorist.
48:53
Lisa: We also have same-sex couples, um, women in particular, who will describe what their ex-wives are doing to their child or to them.
49:01
Lisa: And so it's really eye-opening for people to come together.
49:06
Lisa: Um, I remember in particular, what this is one of my favorite.
49:10
Lisa: I mean, there's so many awesome moments.
49:12
Lisa: I love working on the weekends because of this group.
49:15
Lisa: But one of our male clients was um describing, he has two young children.
49:20
Lisa: He was describing how uncomfortable he feels at their school on the playground because he said, you know, it's mostly women.
49:29
Lisa: And and I feel like she, my ex comes up to me on the playground and she she makes me feel so uncomfortable and I'm I'm really nervous.
49:38
Lisa: And but I I feel like I can't say anything because people are thinking, oh, well, he's a guy and he's he's bad and who knows what she said about me.
49:45
Lisa: And so one of our female clients said, I know what to do.
49:48
Lisa: She goes, try this.
49:49
Lisa: She said, when when she comes up to you, hold your hands up like this and say in a really loud voice, now is not the time.
49:57
Lisa: Because when people see someone going like that, that cue is like like I'm in danger.
50:02
Lisa: Like, or and she said, or say, this is not the place.
50:05
Lisa: But she said, I guarantee you people are not going to look at you as like the abusive one.
50:09
Lisa: They're gonna look at her and say, What is she doing?
50:11
Lisa: And um, and it was just wonderful to see like the the response after that too.
50:17
Lisa: It was really helpful advice.
50:19
Mary: Yeah, I love that that you combine the groups to re because really I think that also keeps people real.
50:25
Mary: It keeps them recognizing that all men are not bad.
50:28
Mary: This, you know, this was a situation, this was a personality, this was a person.
50:32
Mary: And I think that can be really valuable.
50:34
Lisa: Yeah, we just had it.
50:35
Lisa: We had this happened sometimes because, like I said, we have a lot of lawyers in the group where sometimes a couple of them will go off on their lawyers and then one of the clients will be like, I'm really sorry, but I'm gonna learn.
50:45
Lisa: They're like, oh no, no, no.
50:46
Lisa: So it's like you can't always stereotype and group everyone together.
50:54
Mary: No, it's across the board.
50:55
Mary: It can happen to anyone.
50:57
Mary: And I think that's also something that is so powerful to recognize that again, it happens to everyone.
51:04
Mary: So, or it can happen to anyone.
51:06
Mary: So I think that's also important to recognize and remember.
51:10
Mary: And you just do such important work.
51:12
Mary: And of course, I will link your website in the show notes.
51:16
Mary: And I'm guessing all of your resources, that's the jumping off point where people can find what they need.
51:21
Mary: So we'll thank you for being here, Lisa.
51:23
Mary: My pleasure.
51:24
Mary: Thanks for allowing me to talk about this uh difficult topic.
51:27
Mary: And congratulations for getting through everything.
51:30
Mary: It's pretty amazing.
51:31
Lisa: Thank you.
51:32
Lisa: I'm grateful every single day.
51:34
Lisa: Yeah.
51:35
Mary: And I want to thank everyone for listening.
51:36
Mary: If you enjoyed and learned something from today's episode, consider supporting the show at the link in the show notes or forward it to someone that you know it could help.
51:45
Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.