Latest / Honey Badger Radio / Dr. Hannah Spier on mental health and feminism's consequences | Fireside Chat 276

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Dr. Hannah Spier on mental health and feminism's consequences | Fireside Chat 276 · Honey Badger Radio

0:00
Speaker 1: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you may be,
0:02
Speaker 1: and welcome back to Honey Badger Radio. My name is
0:05
Speaker 1: Brian and this is the Fireside Chat and today we
0:09
Speaker 1: have a very special guest, doctor Hannah Spire, MD. Very
0:14
Speaker 1: fancy Hello, Hello Hannah, how are you.
0:19
Speaker 2: Hi, Bran.
0:20
Speaker 3: It's really good to be here.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm well, thank you just got back from vacation, so relaxed.
0:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we might there might be some as I
0:32
Speaker 1: noticed that your Internet connection seems to be like dipping
0:36
Speaker 1: in and out. It might just be because of how
0:38
Speaker 1: far away you are, so tell us a little bit
0:42
Speaker 1: about who you are and what you do. Now I
0:46
Speaker 1: have some information, so correct me if I'm wrong. You
0:49
Speaker 1: are a Norwegian born psychiatrist and cognitive behavioral psychotherapist based
0:54
Speaker 1: in Zurich, Switzerland. You completed psychiatric residency training in Norway
0:59
Speaker 1: and Switzerland and hold a degree in cognitive behavioral psychotherapy
1:03
Speaker 1: from the University of Zurich. You are the creator of
1:06
Speaker 1: the substack publication and podcast Psychobabble, where you offer clinical
1:11
Speaker 1: commentary critiquing modern therapy, culture, diagnostic inflation, personality, pathology, and
1:18
Speaker 1: cultural influences on mental health.
1:22
Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct. Okay, all right, that's correct.
1:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you work in the mental health field,
1:32
Speaker 1: and I didn't. I wasn't sure like what kind of
1:35
Speaker 1: work you were doing before I discovered this, But I
1:38
Speaker 1: ran across a couple of videos you've done with people
1:43
Speaker 1: who are friends of the channel, like Tom Golden, Janie Fiamngo,
1:46
Speaker 1: and James Nouzzo, and I thought that was really interesting
1:49
Speaker 1: because I don't think the mental health field, at least
1:53
Speaker 1: in my experience, has been very friendly towards men's issues.
1:57
Speaker 1: And we're talking about a men's issues channel. So how
2:00
Speaker 1: do you come to, like, you know, have such interesting bedfellows?
2:06
Speaker 2: Right? Well, I do consider myself also advocate for men's
2:12
Speaker 2: issues because I don't think that you can really untangle
2:16
Speaker 2: how women behave from the damages that cause it that
2:21
Speaker 2: we're seeing that, you know, how, the struggles of men.
2:27
Speaker 2: So that's why I think we can improve, like for men,
2:33
Speaker 2: if we really have an honest conversation about what we
2:37
Speaker 2: expect from women, how we can prepare them better for relationships,
2:45
Speaker 2: what we teach them from early on, and also take
2:50
Speaker 2: a really good look at this closter be epidemic that
2:53
Speaker 2: we find ourselves in.
2:55
Speaker 3: And so I think that if.
2:56
Speaker 2: We can to some degree improve the the female psyche
3:01
Speaker 2: that will have and I think that will improve I
3:06
Speaker 2: think that will improve things for men because you know,
3:11
Speaker 2: the men that I have met have really they they
3:14
Speaker 2: wanted companionship. They've just wanted respect and adoration from the
3:20
Speaker 2: women in their lives and the yeah, too few are
3:25
Speaker 2: really receiving that now, regardless of how hard they try.
3:30
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
3:32
Speaker 1: And what what was there like a certain event or
3:35
Speaker 1: experience that you had that like, what like did you
3:38
Speaker 1: always feel this way or did you experience something that
3:41
Speaker 1: changed your perspective.
3:45
Speaker 3: Absolutely?
3:45
Speaker 2: You know, I was born in Northway, born and raised
3:48
Speaker 2: and it's the egalitarian superpower.
3:51
Speaker 3: We're all feminists there. So that was my starting point. Jack.
3:55
Speaker 3: I was really ambitious career women, you know.
4:00
Speaker 2: I I always tell a story about having a fight
4:02
Speaker 2: with my husband about how much maternity believe I would
4:07
Speaker 2: take because I wanted to go back to work and
4:10
Speaker 2: I didn't want to have a break and I felt
4:12
Speaker 2: resentful that he could sort of just continue as if
4:16
Speaker 2: nothing happened. And that is a very common complaint you
4:19
Speaker 2: hear from women that men can just go on and
4:22
Speaker 2: they have to.
4:22
Speaker 3: Do all the work. So I held all of those.
4:25
Speaker 2: Attitudes and then you know, then janee vmn go all
4:30
Speaker 2: of her content. That was what really changed things for me,
4:34
Speaker 2: and I changed my whole worldview after becoming a mother.
4:39
Speaker 2: I realized that that this, this is not true, the
4:43
Speaker 2: attitudes that would not help my husband or my child.
4:48
Speaker 2: Uh And and I saw that when I when I changed,
4:52
Speaker 2: when when I quit my job at the hospital, I
4:56
Speaker 2: took my daughter out of day care and sort of, yeah,
5:02
Speaker 2: I focused on on the family. I focused on making
5:05
Speaker 2: my husband's life better. That made such a harmonious change.
5:10
Speaker 2: We really it changed everything for us. I realized this
5:13
Speaker 2: is not how we're supposed to live. And all of
5:19
Speaker 2: those little fights, the bickering that we that were doing
5:22
Speaker 2: every day, it really, yeah, it changed everything for my
5:26
Speaker 2: husband as well. So so yeah, I just re examined
5:30
Speaker 2: everything and and it improved matters. And then I went
5:35
Speaker 2: back and I thought thought about all the women that
5:38
Speaker 2: I hadn't been able to help. I see mostly women
5:42
Speaker 2: and mental health. That's what it worked most of the
5:45
Speaker 2: time in OUTPUCUSI clinics, and that's you know, you see
5:48
Speaker 2: women there with burnout, with depression, with anxieties close to.
5:53
Speaker 3: Divorce, all the usual culprits.
5:57
Speaker 2: And and I thought, you know, how much of that
6:00
Speaker 2: would be solved if we all re examined our attitudes
6:06
Speaker 2: towards relationships, marriage, towards our children. And I realized that
6:11
Speaker 2: a lot of the things that I held that was
6:13
Speaker 2: because of ego, because of pride, It was my own ambition,
6:18
Speaker 2: It was a lot of self a focus. And when
6:21
Speaker 2: I let that go, it made things better for the
6:23
Speaker 2: whole family. And I started to think about the family
6:27
Speaker 2: going forward as a unit rather than just this is
6:31
Speaker 2: me and my identity and where I want to go.
6:34
Speaker 2: And the funny thing is that was about my husband
6:37
Speaker 2: had been thinking the entire time. You know, he didn't
6:40
Speaker 2: have to make that change. He didn't have that kind
6:42
Speaker 2: of self a focus that I had, so so for him,
6:47
Speaker 2: it was really just about what am I allowed to
6:51
Speaker 2: tell her? What am I allowed to say yes to?
6:57
Speaker 2: And I mean he thanks me almost every day that
7:00
Speaker 2: you know that that I made that change so that
7:05
Speaker 2: we could have the life that we we now had,
7:07
Speaker 2: because he says very openly, there was no way he
7:10
Speaker 2: could have made he could have made those suggestions because
7:14
Speaker 2: it's not allowed mm hm hm.
7:19
Speaker 3: So that's where I was.
7:19
Speaker 2: Coming from, and that of the changes that I made.
7:22
Speaker 2: And I had other experiences as well when I was
7:25
Speaker 2: doing the psychotherapy degree at the university, when I started
7:29
Speaker 2: this sort of transformation and I started asking questions about
7:33
Speaker 2: men and women and personality differences, and I was just
7:37
Speaker 2: stonewalled repeatedly. They didn't engage with those kind of questions,
7:42
Speaker 2: and that sort of just and you just realized that
7:45
Speaker 2: there are there are a lot of lies. The whole
7:47
Speaker 2: mental health field is veryy ideological and and that creates
7:55
Speaker 2: a lot of mistrust. So that that's that's what happened.
8:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, And I know that you've made a series
8:06
Speaker 1: of videos and you have a substack. I'm gonna show
8:08
Speaker 1: the substack real quick to people. It's called psychobabble. Uh.
8:12
Speaker 1: And your channel is it's doctor Hannah spar m D.
8:18
Speaker 1: I believe psychobabble is in the title for that as well.
8:21
Speaker 1: And I what I like about what you're doing is actually,
8:28
Speaker 1: like I think it's well, I don't know, I feel
8:30
Speaker 1: like in the in the mental health field, the psych
8:35
Speaker 1: psychological field, there's a lot of it's not just not
8:41
Speaker 1: in you know, like considering men's ways of knowing, like
8:44
Speaker 1: you've heard of the APA guidelines on dealing with men's
8:48
Speaker 1: mental health. I don't know if they've changed, but years
8:50
Speaker 1: ago we've looked at it and it's it's you know,
8:53
Speaker 1: it's about basically getting men to recognize their privilege and
8:58
Speaker 1: things like this, and they are an altily not helpful,
9:00
Speaker 1: and it's no wonder men don't seek help. But one
9:03
Speaker 1: thing you also talk about is the ways that this
9:06
Speaker 1: the field is harmful to women as well. So I
9:11
Speaker 1: thought you, yeah, does it do you you? So, do
9:15
Speaker 1: you still work in in uh like as a therapist
9:18
Speaker 1: or anything, or do you just make content?
9:19
Speaker 3: Yes?
9:20
Speaker 1: Okay?
9:21
Speaker 2: I also have have clients and now you can go
9:24
Speaker 2: to Psychobabble and book a session there. So now I'm
9:27
Speaker 2: seeing more men who don't find a place in the
9:32
Speaker 2: mental health been to therapists or they don't you know,
9:35
Speaker 2: it's going through custody, they're going to through family court
9:39
Speaker 2: situations and they don't. And honestly, if you're in that
9:44
Speaker 2: sort of situation, you shouldn't go and see a therapist
9:47
Speaker 2: that can make things considerably works for you and they
9:51
Speaker 2: won't have the sort of problem if they talk to me.
9:54
Speaker 2: Why I offer counseling because of the situation. That's not
10:00
Speaker 2: something that can be subpoena to corps. So I see
10:03
Speaker 2: more men now than I ever used to, and I'm
10:07
Speaker 2: happy that I can help them when they don't find
10:12
Speaker 2: any kind of help in the mental health field. It's
10:15
Speaker 2: really not biblity to understand men. I only really learned
10:19
Speaker 2: about how to help men from Tom Golden, who have
10:23
Speaker 2: no you've on the show. That is not something that
10:27
Speaker 2: you really taught when you're doing any of these degrees,
10:30
Speaker 2: and you're just you're taught the feminist nonsense of the
10:35
Speaker 2: men and women are exactly the same. And the problem
10:39
Speaker 2: men have with mental health is that they're not expressing
10:43
Speaker 2: their feelings properly, and they're suppressing their feelings because they're
10:46
Speaker 2: told they should be masculine and that is just not accurate.
10:51
Speaker 2: To express it in a different way, and they need
10:53
Speaker 2: different things to heal than women do.
10:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yes, men heal in a different way
11:02
Speaker 1: than women, for sure. And the other thing too, is uh,
11:07
Speaker 1: I think that like, I'm curious, what was what is
11:11
Speaker 1: something about the way you were expected to treat male
11:16
Speaker 1: clients before, you know, Tom gold and everything else, Like
11:19
Speaker 1: what was I wanted? I'm trying to get a peek
11:21
Speaker 1: behind how this is this works because I see it
11:24
Speaker 1: in terms of, like, you know the documents that have
11:26
Speaker 1: been put out, like the APA guidelines, but like how
11:29
Speaker 1: does that actually how did that come out in your classes?
11:32
Speaker 1: Did they talk about the stuff from them? You know
11:34
Speaker 1: what what we we should do? You know in terms
11:37
Speaker 1: of like men seeking help, what does that look like
11:41
Speaker 1: or what did it look like before you you know, realized, well, you.
11:46
Speaker 3: Treat them the same way.
11:48
Speaker 2: Do they come in, you sit across from each other,
11:51
Speaker 2: and you have them talk about their feelings until they cry.
11:55
Speaker 1: That's what that's what you're supposed to do. So we
11:58
Speaker 1: basically treat men and women are the same normally.
12:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is when you have a breakthrough, is when
12:03
Speaker 2: when you get your male client to start crying.
12:05
Speaker 3: That's when you really go.
12:06
Speaker 2: That's when you're really going someplace. But what men need
12:10
Speaker 2: is not that men find it quite provoking to sit
12:13
Speaker 2: face to face and and sit like that and chat.
12:16
Speaker 2: You should you should go for a walk, or you
12:19
Speaker 2: should go do something, or or play a game if
12:21
Speaker 2: you have to sit in the room, play game while talking.
12:24
Speaker 2: Men men benefit from sitting in the car with a
12:29
Speaker 2: friend where they can look straight ahead and they a
12:32
Speaker 2: lot of men benefit from that, and and.
12:36
Speaker 3: They heal differently. They heal by doing.
12:40
Speaker 2: They heal by by by actions, by doing something with
12:43
Speaker 2: other men. And when they grieve, they need to honor
12:49
Speaker 2: the people who have died.
12:51
Speaker 3: They don't.
12:51
Speaker 2: They don't need to sit and cry over a bit
12:53
Speaker 2: and and talk about their feelings. They need to do
12:56
Speaker 2: things that would honor the one they have lost or
12:59
Speaker 2: the thing that they have lost. That that that is
13:02
Speaker 2: not taught. That that men men men work like this.
13:08
Speaker 2: You sit there and you and you look them in
13:10
Speaker 2: the eyes, and you shouldn't wait, and you wait for
13:12
Speaker 2: them to reveal their innermost their emotions. And of course
13:19
Speaker 2: the men can also do that, but they need a
13:22
Speaker 2: different approach, and that approach is not taught.
13:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. So if a breakthrough before for a man is
13:35
Speaker 1: to basically get them to cry, and I guess that's
13:37
Speaker 1: the same that's also considered a breakthrough if a woman
13:40
Speaker 1: does it, then what is how do you know it's
13:44
Speaker 1: successful or you've had a breakthrough when you're doing you
13:47
Speaker 1: know the other kind of a therapy. That's something that's
13:50
Speaker 1: more suited for male clients.
13:56
Speaker 2: And I think that you should then look at functioning,
13:58
Speaker 2: and I don't think that what happens in therapy can
14:01
Speaker 2: tell you if the person is moving forward or not.
14:04
Speaker 2: I would look at is the sleep getting better? Are
14:07
Speaker 2: they less anxious overall? Is it easier to go to
14:10
Speaker 2: work or is it easier to resume normal activities. That's
14:15
Speaker 2: where you would see improvement regardless of what happens inside
14:19
Speaker 2: the therapy room. That is also something that that's a
14:23
Speaker 2: little bit lost that they do. You just you look
14:26
Speaker 2: at what's happening there in the conversation. There's no way
14:30
Speaker 2: to this shortle whole breakthrough thing. I think it comes
14:33
Speaker 2: from movies and TV shows. Yeah, I don't really believe
14:37
Speaker 2: in the soul I'm having a breakthrough because I've heard
14:40
Speaker 2: that many times from women and they still keep coming
14:44
Speaker 2: and they still have the same problems next week, although
14:47
Speaker 2: we had a huge breakthrough the week before.
14:50
Speaker 3: So I think that's psychobabble. That's why I call my
14:53
Speaker 3: show a psycho babble.
14:55
Speaker 2: Share so many of these things that are just inaccurate,
14:59
Speaker 2: And yeah, we stop looking at functioning overall. That is
15:04
Speaker 2: the only measurement you have in psychiatry. You don't have
15:07
Speaker 2: X rays. You don't have lab results. There are no lad,
15:10
Speaker 2: there are no biomarkers for what we do. The only
15:13
Speaker 2: thing we should care about is are you functioning and
15:16
Speaker 2: contributing to society. That's also something we don't really measure
15:20
Speaker 2: with whipmen.
15:22
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and the it's actually funny that you mentioned that,
15:29
Speaker 1: because I was just gonna ask you, like, how how
15:31
Speaker 1: much uh, I guess, like, how much of psychotherapy that
15:37
Speaker 1: you've learned do you think is in fact like junk
15:41
Speaker 1: junk science. I mean, obviously you still care about mental health,
15:45
Speaker 1: but it seems like you're taking a different approach.
15:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's, there's there's so.
15:51
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm never running out of topics. I think
15:54
Speaker 2: you have everything around autism. Now. There's a lot of
15:58
Speaker 2: psycho babble or ferent diagnostic expansions that we're seeing in
16:02
Speaker 2: every different category you I just did an episode on
16:07
Speaker 2: a dissociate of identity disorder, all these aliases that they have,
16:13
Speaker 2: that psychobabble, a lot of the therapy techniques that don't
16:19
Speaker 2: work DEEPT for borderline. I think it's absolutely wrong. It's
16:23
Speaker 2: the wrong approach because we fundamentally misunderstand that disorder. We
16:29
Speaker 2: misunderstand a lot of female behavior. We will not put
16:33
Speaker 2: the correct framework on it, so the problems goes so deep.
16:39
Speaker 2: So so that's that's psycho babble.
16:43
Speaker 1: Yeah.
16:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so many examples ADHD.
16:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely want to get into some of those,
16:51
Speaker 1: because you know, we've been basically just medicating people for
16:56
Speaker 1: all kinds of you know, things that may not be
16:59
Speaker 1: as serious as it's you know, presented. But I want
17:03
Speaker 1: to ask you before we do. We're we're getting a
17:06
Speaker 1: lot of like I don't know, weird reverberating sounds coming
17:09
Speaker 1: from your microphone. So I'm going to try and see
17:12
Speaker 1: if we're using the right microphone. So are you currently
17:15
Speaker 1: using your air pods as your microphone?
17:18
Speaker 3: No, I meant to be using the Samson.
17:21
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll put a request in and you accept it
17:25
Speaker 1: and see if this fixes the issue.
17:27
Speaker 3: All right, to do it?
17:29
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah, I guess it was
17:32
Speaker 1: using your air pods before. That's okay, all right, this
17:35
Speaker 1: should sound better, guys, I'm sorry. All right, So let's
17:39
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about the uh these like
17:44
Speaker 1: you know, the ADHD and and and this other stuff.
17:50
Speaker 1: What do you think is wrong with this? Is like
17:54
Speaker 1: a big question. What do you think is wrong with
17:58
Speaker 1: the way that you know we treat Let's just start
18:01
Speaker 1: with women. What's what's wrong with me? Because women are
18:05
Speaker 1: they're They're way more likely to see a therapist. I
18:09
Speaker 1: think that what a quarter of them are on some
18:13
Speaker 1: kind of SSRI or other drug to help them cope,
18:18
Speaker 1: and they don't seem to be doing well. Women are
18:21
Speaker 1: not doing well? Am I wrong about that? And what
18:24
Speaker 1: do you think that is?
18:26
Speaker 3: Yeah?
18:27
Speaker 2: I think that women struggle to adjust to adult life
18:31
Speaker 2: in general, right in many different ways. Also those who
18:35
Speaker 2: are never in treatment, and we see that in so
18:38
Speaker 2: many different we have so many different indicators for that.
18:44
Speaker 2: And what mental health what psychiatry helps do is that
18:50
Speaker 2: it's sort of it helps obscure hide the waste product
18:55
Speaker 2: of feminism mm hmm. And that is how we let
19:01
Speaker 2: women the choices we let women do. I think a
19:04
Speaker 2: lot of it comes to this non judgmentalism. We're not
19:08
Speaker 2: allowed to judge every every decision is fine, and we
19:11
Speaker 2: will just not tell women that, Look, this is what
19:16
Speaker 2: has helped this is what has been good for humans
19:20
Speaker 2: for thousands of years. So the likelihood that a completely
19:24
Speaker 2: different direction will work for you and your family is
19:29
Speaker 2: very small. So now we say, oh, at any decision
19:34
Speaker 2: is whatever you choose to do, delay family, delay, have
19:40
Speaker 2: as much sex as you want that as long as
19:43
Speaker 2: you consent time you know, you decide the timing. That is,
19:48
Speaker 2: as long as you consent, that's good. Body count doesn't matter,
19:52
Speaker 2: all these things, right, that's the that's the influence of feminism.
19:58
Speaker 2: And then when that turns out, okay, that's actually not
20:02
Speaker 2: great for adjusting to adult life, psychiatric is right there
20:06
Speaker 2: calling it what it isn't Oh, it's probably because of ADHD.
20:11
Speaker 2: You know, that's usually a personality problem. Or maybe it's autism.
20:15
Speaker 2: I think a lot of autism that we see now
20:18
Speaker 2: in women is poor socialization.
20:20
Speaker 3: And no one wants to say that out loud.
20:22
Speaker 1: Oh well, let's let's go down that road a little bit.
20:25
Speaker 1: So how do we know I'm serious because, like you know,
20:30
Speaker 1: in the I think historically we have assumed, since we've
20:34
Speaker 1: been diagnosing autism that that's like something that is very
20:39
Speaker 1: common with men. So you're saying that there are more
20:45
Speaker 1: Are we getting more female autists or is it just
20:49
Speaker 1: like a you know, people self diagnosing like whatever based
20:53
Speaker 1: on their feelings and it's not real and the same
20:56
Speaker 1: way that people, you know, they they talk about having anxiety,
21:00
Speaker 1: they talk about suicide or feeling suicidal or depressed, and
21:05
Speaker 1: it's not clinical. It's sort of like you know, a
21:07
Speaker 1: self a self diagnosis, you know. So what do you
21:14
Speaker 1: think about like the is our more women becoming autistic?
21:20
Speaker 1: Like is this real? Or is it?
21:21
Speaker 2: Or no? We are diagnosing a lot more adult women
21:28
Speaker 2: with autism. That is that is true. They are officially
21:31
Speaker 2: being diagnosed with autism. And it's not the same thing
21:35
Speaker 2: as we're suddenly giving birth to a lot more female artists.
21:39
Speaker 3: That is a very different yes, claim.
21:44
Speaker 1: Some sorry, yeah, go ahead.
21:47
Speaker 2: We've done some radical changes in the autism diagnosis, and
21:53
Speaker 2: we were the artists. The ones we call artists now,
21:57
Speaker 2: both kids and adult look vastly different to the ones
22:03
Speaker 2: we diagnosed in the sixties. In the sixties and before
22:06
Speaker 2: that as well, it's an older diagnosis. They were usually nonverbal,
22:11
Speaker 2: they had motoric problems, they needed lifetime care, they needed
22:19
Speaker 2: one on one lifetime care. So if you if you
22:22
Speaker 2: look at videos of them, they are they're they're very
22:26
Speaker 2: different from the kids now, and that is because the
22:30
Speaker 2: diagnosis went through an expansion.
22:33
Speaker 3: They widened the criteria. They added more criteria at.
22:36
Speaker 2: The same time as they they said, you only need
22:39
Speaker 2: to fulfill these in these criteria. So now you can
22:42
Speaker 2: get a diagnosis of autism without fulfilling the same without
22:46
Speaker 2: having really a lot of matoric disabilities, without you know,
22:52
Speaker 2: being very verbal. So you have this term high functioning autism.
22:57
Speaker 2: Now Asperger is no longer available, but you sort of
23:02
Speaker 2: divide it into different levels.
23:04
Speaker 3: But most autistic kids.
23:05
Speaker 2: That you'll meet now they are very their verbally fluid.
23:10
Speaker 2: It also used to be you couldn't get the diagnosis
23:12
Speaker 2: after thirty six months, and now we're diagnosing thirty year
23:18
Speaker 2: old women and the majority, the large majority of those
23:23
Speaker 2: late diagnosed, they are women. So you have a majority
23:27
Speaker 2: of those diagnosed as kids they're male kids.
23:30
Speaker 3: And then it flips.
23:31
Speaker 2: How likely is that we're talking about a neurodevelopmental disorder?
23:35
Speaker 2: This is something you're born with. And then suddenly it
23:38
Speaker 2: flips and you've got all these thirty year old women
23:41
Speaker 2: now saying they're oldists. And the reason that they weren't
23:45
Speaker 2: discovered as kids was because they were masking.
23:47
Speaker 3: Are you joking? It is? And that's what psychiatry helps
23:53
Speaker 3: them do.
23:53
Speaker 2: When what it is is that we're glorifying these anti
23:58
Speaker 2: social traits. We think that oh, in someone's autistic, that
24:01
Speaker 2: means they're smarter, they're just super special. It's just superpower.
24:04
Speaker 2: We've all seen Sheldon Cooper and like Sherlock Holmes and
24:08
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, this elite class, I also want to
24:11
Speaker 2: be a member and yeah, right yeah, and the same
24:15
Speaker 2: The same goes for the late diagnosed ADHD cases, where
24:19
Speaker 2: when you get that diagnosis, what it gives you, it's
24:22
Speaker 2: the story of redemption.
24:24
Speaker 3: Oh I would have I could have excelled at.
24:27
Speaker 2: This if it wasn't for my undiagnosed blah blah blah.
24:32
Speaker 1: Would it be too cruel for me to say that
24:35
Speaker 1: the idea of this kind of like let's all join
24:38
Speaker 1: the club of being you know, especially I guess you
24:43
Speaker 1: could say it is a kind of oppression because you're like,
24:47
Speaker 1: you need special care and attention and treatment. Would it
24:51
Speaker 1: be uh cruel for me to say that that sounds
24:54
Speaker 1: inherently extremely feminine, like in just a way that it's framed.
24:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Absolutely. A lot of the.
25:03
Speaker 2: Look at the diagnosis that are becoming popular, the ones
25:07
Speaker 2: that are becoming trendy.
25:08
Speaker 3: That's something I talk about a lot. And as in psychobabble, you.
25:11
Speaker 2: Don't see uh this this sort of increase in mental
25:17
Speaker 2: health disorder where you cannot arrange the environment around you.
25:22
Speaker 2: You see an increase in those disorder where the burden
25:25
Speaker 2: of accommodation lies elsewhere. That's why you have the the
25:30
Speaker 2: what's popular is these neual developmental disorder. I was born
25:33
Speaker 2: this way. My brain is wired differently, whatever that means,
25:38
Speaker 2: and so therefore I require a B and C.
25:41
Speaker 3: I am in the victim role.
25:43
Speaker 2: And whenever I have a rage or a hissy fit,
25:48
Speaker 2: or I can't do something, I can't show up from
25:50
Speaker 2: work like a normal person, it's because of this thing
25:54
Speaker 2: that I haven't. I didn't get medications sooner, I didn't
25:57
Speaker 2: get help sooner. So that's why it's extra bad now
26:00
Speaker 2: suddenly that I'm thirty, so and I think that this
26:04
Speaker 2: is just they're they're not adjusting to adult life. And
26:07
Speaker 2: then psychiatry jumps in there and gives them a label
26:11
Speaker 2: to help them.
26:12
Speaker 1: It reaffirms what they're doing, so essentially encouraging self destructive behavior,
26:19
Speaker 1: right is it?
26:21
Speaker 3: Yeah?
26:21
Speaker 2: And the crazy, you know, crazy crazy thing is I
26:25
Speaker 2: have a so many mothers come in to the outpatient clinic.
26:29
Speaker 2: They tell me, oh, my son was just diagnosed with
26:33
Speaker 2: autism or ADHD or both, and they pull up a
26:38
Speaker 2: questionnaire that they've already filled out from the internet and say, so,
26:45
Speaker 2: that's why I think that I also have ADHD because
26:49
Speaker 2: it's really genetic, isn't it?
26:53
Speaker 3: So what are what are we really doing here?
26:56
Speaker 2: And I mean a lot of people come out of
26:58
Speaker 2: mental health clinics with out a diagnosis.
27:01
Speaker 3: No, a lot of.
27:03
Speaker 2: It is because of insurance that you know, you have
27:05
Speaker 2: to put a label.
27:07
Speaker 3: You know you have to.
27:09
Speaker 2: But you know, when everything you have is a hammer,
27:13
Speaker 2: everything will look like a nail.
27:14
Speaker 3: That's a little bit what's going on?
27:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, So then like if we've broadened the definition and
27:23
Speaker 1: we've like added categories and we've softened how I guess
27:28
Speaker 1: you know the criteria enough, then how can we actually
27:32
Speaker 1: determine who's autistic versus who's not? Is it? Is it
27:35
Speaker 1: still if you're just born that way? Is that is
27:37
Speaker 1: that like the safest bed?
27:40
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think we should go back to how we
27:42
Speaker 2: used to categorize it.
27:44
Speaker 3: Do you do you have to you see it early.
27:47
Speaker 2: On, they have limited verbal abilities, they have metoric you know,
27:56
Speaker 2: metoric difficulties, and they're not able to learn the way
28:02
Speaker 2: normal kids learn.
28:03
Speaker 3: And you see that it's.
28:04
Speaker 2: It doesn't it doesn't, it doesn't go away, it progresses. Yeah,
28:10
Speaker 2: and I think that we would benefit from from tightening,
28:13
Speaker 2: but there's a lot of political advocacy behind the expansions
28:19
Speaker 2: of the DOES, so that will never happen. So that's
28:22
Speaker 2: why I'm saying that psychiatrists are very much at fault here.
28:26
Speaker 2: They should have been gatekeepers, they should have been able
28:29
Speaker 2: to say no. We're the ones who have to say no.
28:32
Speaker 2: I don't think you have a mental health diagnosis. I
28:35
Speaker 2: don't think that there is anything wrong with you psychologically.
28:40
Speaker 2: You're struggling with the ordinary demands that everyone else have
28:44
Speaker 2: to fulfill.
28:45
Speaker 1: M H.
28:46
Speaker 3: Right.
28:46
Speaker 1: I can understand why a person would want to feel
28:51
Speaker 1: special and so self diagnose as whatever any number of things,
28:56
Speaker 1: ADHD or autism or whatever. But why would people in
29:00
Speaker 1: the mental health field support that? Why would they encourage
29:05
Speaker 1: people's I don't know self delusions?
29:12
Speaker 2: Well, you know, every every used toee these lecture rounds,
29:19
Speaker 2: so do we'd go to all the different departments in
29:21
Speaker 2: psychiatry and have conferences, so we'd be lectured to buy
29:26
Speaker 2: heads of departments, and I just noticed that in every
29:31
Speaker 2: lecture they would start with how big of a problem
29:34
Speaker 2: this is, but also how incredibly well their methods were working,
29:40
Speaker 2: but the problem just kept increasing, and it would be
29:43
Speaker 2: the same lecture in every department. So they have interest,
29:47
Speaker 2: of course, in making their field much their problem much
29:51
Speaker 2: bigger than it really is, including a lot of patients.
29:55
Speaker 2: And once you once you're heading up the apartment, once
29:59
Speaker 2: you're researching something, you're not gonna if you'd spent ten
30:02
Speaker 2: years doing that, you're not gonna suddenly say, I guess
30:05
Speaker 2: this wasn't really such a big teo logo and specialize
30:09
Speaker 2: in something else over there. And so there's of course
30:13
Speaker 2: they they have an interest there. And they're also it's
30:18
Speaker 2: been taken over by very by liberal women. There aren't
30:24
Speaker 2: a lot of conservatives, and mental health and psychology it's
30:28
Speaker 2: eighty five percent women. Oh yeah, and that does something
30:33
Speaker 2: the feminization, and they're all, you know, they they jump
30:39
Speaker 2: on this infantilization like nothing else matters.
30:43
Speaker 3: So that's a huge problem. I said.
30:45
Speaker 2: The ones that I was working with, they believed in
30:48
Speaker 2: this wholeheartedly. It's not difficult to convince someone that they
30:52
Speaker 2: believed they have a rescuer complex, so they really get
30:57
Speaker 2: something out of it for their personal psychology.
31:00
Speaker 1: And is this sort of substituting Yeah, is it sort
31:04
Speaker 1: of substituting their maternal instincts to do that.
31:07
Speaker 2: Like you know, like yeah, yeah, part and but there's
31:13
Speaker 2: also a social dominance element in there, aren't They feel
31:17
Speaker 2: dominant within that therapy room. They like being the one
31:22
Speaker 2: to tell you what you're going to do, to have
31:25
Speaker 2: that sort of influence over someone, and the infantilization gives.
31:31
Speaker 3: You that.
31:32
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah that makes sense. Yeah. So then, okay,
31:38
Speaker 1: you made a video about people who pretend, I guess
31:45
Speaker 1: to be suicidal as a means of I don't know
31:48
Speaker 1: what else to call it other than manipulation. Can we
31:53
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that that and like why
31:55
Speaker 1: this is so dangerous?
31:59
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yeah.
32:01
Speaker 2: So I just started seeing this trend among young people
32:07
Speaker 2: that they're speaking about their suicidal ideation and suicidal attempts,
32:12
Speaker 2: and the way that they're speaking about it doesn't match
32:16
Speaker 2: the people that I've treated that were actually suicidal. So
32:22
Speaker 2: they're talking about it with this performative pride. Telling a
32:25
Speaker 2: whole bunch of people on TikTok about their suicidal attempts
32:31
Speaker 2: as if they were had been grocery shopping, really like
32:34
Speaker 2: it was this mundane thing, proudly telling people about all
32:40
Speaker 2: of their suffering. And I think that it has to
32:43
Speaker 2: do with this. We're diagnosing a lot of especially young
32:47
Speaker 2: people now with mental health diagnosis and their social cachet
32:54
Speaker 2: and having a dire certain type of diagnosm going around
32:57
Speaker 2: bragging about their clinical depression. Right, You're sure you're bragging
33:01
Speaker 2: about your neurodevelopmental disorder that you're getting over and look
33:05
Speaker 2: at I'm keeping a job despite my mental health disorder.
33:10
Speaker 2: There's also that you're making the mundane extraordinary if you
33:15
Speaker 2: do it despite of your mental health label. But so
33:18
Speaker 2: now a lot of people have a diagnosis, and so
33:22
Speaker 2: then this social currency of the psychopathology it will increase,
33:28
Speaker 2: it will inflate, and so of course you're then pushing
33:31
Speaker 2: the claims further and further. And so now proximity to
33:35
Speaker 2: death is sort of the ultimate status. Now you have
33:40
Speaker 2: to go as far as talking about your suicidal attempt
33:44
Speaker 2: to get the same kind of social cache as you
33:47
Speaker 2: would for ADHD ten years ago. Yeah, no one's going
33:53
Speaker 2: to say, oh, wow, you're doing it despite your ADHD.
33:56
Speaker 3: Now it's oh I also have.
33:57
Speaker 1: That, yeah, of course, and it's lost. It's uh, it's
34:02
Speaker 1: lost its novelty because everybody's saying they have ADHD, or
34:06
Speaker 1: they're saying they're autistic or they got aspergers. Yeah, it's like,
34:10
Speaker 1: how do I stand out? You mentioned that it was
34:14
Speaker 1: young people? Is it is it? Is it an even
34:17
Speaker 1: split or is there a majority of men or women
34:19
Speaker 1: that are doing this?
34:21
Speaker 2: This is majority female problem or very or feminized men
34:26
Speaker 2: where there are more feminized men now than of course
34:31
Speaker 2: that is like Tom Golden says, men will compete in
34:35
Speaker 2: the hierarchy they are given and now it's about who
34:38
Speaker 2: can be the most feminized man.
34:40
Speaker 3: So then that's where that's how they'll compete, who can
34:44
Speaker 3: be the best male?
34:45
Speaker 1: Ally, Yeah, they can't beat women at that though, It's
34:49
Speaker 1: that's a losing game. Women will always win, Yeah, the
34:53
Speaker 1: game of victimhood.
34:55
Speaker 3: Yes.
34:55
Speaker 1: So yeah, so that's awful. So if somebody is doing that,
35:02
Speaker 1: I mean, couldn't it just be like if somebody is
35:06
Speaker 1: claiming because they use this suicidal ideation as a means
35:10
Speaker 1: to not just like gain social status within like whatever
35:13
Speaker 1: their group is, which is probably a lot of other
35:15
Speaker 1: people doing the same thing. But it's also kind of
35:18
Speaker 1: it's abusive because they're basically saying, you know, be nice
35:21
Speaker 1: to me, otherwise I might do something to myself and
35:24
Speaker 1: then it's on your head. Right. Isn't that just abuse?
35:31
Speaker 3: Yes? I think it's it's it's very manipulative.
35:35
Speaker 2: And I've talked about that in relation to to borderline
35:39
Speaker 2: treatment as well.
35:41
Speaker 3: Borderline girls are very known to be very outspoken.
35:47
Speaker 2: About their suicidality and how they use that to move
35:51
Speaker 2: people around them. And I give this example of a
35:56
Speaker 2: popular like Young Women's Two Girls having a podcast and
36:01
Speaker 2: they're talking about suicide and how we're all responsible for
36:04
Speaker 2: what we tell each other.
36:06
Speaker 3: So they use that as a stick to beat people with.
36:09
Speaker 2: How don't you dare be responsible for someone's suicidal ideation?
36:13
Speaker 2: And you're just taking away any form of responsibility for
36:17
Speaker 2: your own improvement, for your betterment.
36:20
Speaker 3: And I think in many many.
36:22
Speaker 2: Of these cases, saying you are responsible for your own life.
36:28
Speaker 2: You know, I am here at our scheduled time if
36:33
Speaker 2: you need help, but I'm going to go about my business,
36:36
Speaker 2: and you have the hospital's number and I'll be able
36:39
Speaker 2: to visit when I can. That is a better treatment
36:43
Speaker 2: in most cases. But now there's a liability issue, I understand.
36:50
Speaker 2: I mean I had a very sort of a stance
36:54
Speaker 2: like that when I worked an outpatient clinic. And yeah,
36:59
Speaker 2: they had an instance when my my, the the one
37:02
Speaker 2: who led the clinics, she was then new, she was
37:05
Speaker 2: a woman, and and she was very worried, had a
37:08
Speaker 2: lot of anxiety. So she made me come back in
37:12
Speaker 2: and do you know, move heaven and earth for this person.
37:16
Speaker 2: I judged, okay, I think that they'll survive until our
37:20
Speaker 2: scheduled appointment, and we'll do it this way. And I'd said,
37:23
Speaker 2: you know, goodbye, and we made a plan. And that
37:26
Speaker 2: was not She was so terrified of liability that she
37:29
Speaker 2: then moved half on on earth and kept I had
37:32
Speaker 2: to stay until late hours. And it was that was
37:36
Speaker 2: a very unnoticed that you know, there's a young female
37:38
Speaker 2: she was it was too big of a role for
37:41
Speaker 2: her and her anxieties.
37:44
Speaker 3: Uh and uh.
37:46
Speaker 2: In the end, that was not a good treatment of
37:48
Speaker 2: that patient. And then I had previously worked for an
37:53
Speaker 2: old did the one who used to lead the clinic.
37:55
Speaker 2: He was an old school psychiatrist with more of this
37:57
Speaker 2: mentality you do not let yourself be held hostage that
38:01
Speaker 2: is not good for anyone in this scenario. He was a, yeah,
38:06
Speaker 2: that's a different story, but that was sort of what
38:08
Speaker 2: I was used to. And then suddenly this young female
38:13
Speaker 2: anxiety patient herself came in and we we did we
38:18
Speaker 2: did a disservice to that patient because we started moving
38:22
Speaker 2: Heaven and Earth going to be that's kind of that's
38:25
Speaker 2: bound to then happen again and again.
38:29
Speaker 1: That's fair. So then more, far more women, young women
38:35
Speaker 1: are on you know, social media. That's how you know
38:39
Speaker 1: that there's something fishy about it, you know, posting their
38:44
Speaker 1: suicidal ideation with dramatic music playing and their their makeup
38:48
Speaker 1: is done and they're in front of a camera and
38:50
Speaker 1: you know it's and it is like done in this
38:53
Speaker 1: very performative way. But the reality is is that men
38:58
Speaker 1: are far more like the to you know, be victims
39:01
Speaker 1: of suicide that women are. Yes, So then first of all,
39:06
Speaker 1: how do you know it's real suicidal ideation? I mean
39:10
Speaker 1: outside of them not being performative, Like, are there other
39:14
Speaker 1: ways to tell that are like legitimate?
39:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that is my main problem with these these
39:20
Speaker 2: types of reals, these postings.
39:22
Speaker 3: This is what struggling looks.
39:23
Speaker 2: Like because the patients to the people who really are suicidal,
39:28
Speaker 2: that comes primarily from shame and guilt MH. So a
39:32
Speaker 2: lot of shame and guilt involved, so they would never
39:36
Speaker 2: post anything like that. And often, you know, have suicidal
39:44
Speaker 2: thoughts for a long time, and they will be very
39:48
Speaker 2: reluctant to give that up, to give up the information
39:52
Speaker 2: because it's their exit strategy. It is I'm suffering so
39:56
Speaker 2: much that this is something I'm going to keep private
39:58
Speaker 2: because I need.
39:59
Speaker 3: That as an exit.
40:00
Speaker 2: So it's quite hard to have them tell you that
40:04
Speaker 2: what they're actually thinking about. And and you know, with men,
40:10
Speaker 2: you have a you have to do a risk assessment,
40:12
Speaker 2: like if there's if if they're going through a divorce,
40:16
Speaker 2: if they're living alone, if they're over fifty, if they're
40:21
Speaker 2: then the risk goes up. And so you have to
40:24
Speaker 2: be very aware and if there are feelings of shame
40:28
Speaker 2: and guilt, and usually there's a sense of calmness befo
40:35
Speaker 2: two weeks before, a couple of weeks before, yeah, that
40:40
Speaker 2: you know there's sort of made their peace, they've made
40:43
Speaker 2: their plans, and they will not tell you about it.
40:49
Speaker 1: How would you have you have you ever dealt with
40:54
Speaker 1: suicidal clients?
40:56
Speaker 3: Yes, many, and we've usually been men.
41:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how have you been able to get them
41:05
Speaker 1: to talk about it, like coax it out of them
41:08
Speaker 1: or did or did they come to you with these
41:11
Speaker 1: thoughts already and you knew upfront?
41:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's you have to sort of when they're in
41:19
Speaker 3: that situation, they're very introverted. They're very very very closed mind.
41:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, closed minded, and so you sort of you have
41:33
Speaker 2: to try to widen their horizon a little bit. So
41:36
Speaker 2: you have to try to have them talk about try
41:40
Speaker 2: to have them realize that people will be affected by
41:44
Speaker 2: this action that they're they're going that that they're planning.
41:48
Speaker 3: And so.
41:52
Speaker 2: When I've had them talk about it, I've assumed that
41:56
Speaker 2: that is what they're planning to do, and so I
41:58
Speaker 2: start talking about that before they have admitted it before.
42:03
Speaker 2: But you can, you know, you can see they see
42:05
Speaker 2: it in their eyes, can see it in their and
42:09
Speaker 2: so and they're very quiet.
42:12
Speaker 1: Yeah.
42:14
Speaker 2: So so I would give an example, I would say, listen,
42:17
Speaker 2: this is that this has happened before, and I've seen
42:20
Speaker 2: in the family, so I just try to talk about
42:23
Speaker 2: a different case. But but yeah, it happened once in
42:29
Speaker 2: an inpatient clinic that they actually went through the Act
42:35
Speaker 2: and yeah, so so so, so it's happened and it's
42:40
Speaker 2: very different. That's why I reacted so strongly to these reels,
42:45
Speaker 2: because it's.
42:47
Speaker 3: It's not that's not what it looks like.
42:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, for sure, Well it's absolutely and I
42:53
Speaker 1: can see how it can be kind of infuriating because
42:56
Speaker 1: I have on this channel, I've done interviews with some
43:01
Speaker 1: men who have been in that place, like that dark place,
43:05
Speaker 1: and it was because of experiences they had in the
43:09
Speaker 1: military and stuff, and you know, it's I mean, I
43:13
Speaker 1: just don't think it's something that you can make light of.
43:15
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, I think there's a lot of people who
43:17
Speaker 1: are very naive that are, you know, just using it
43:21
Speaker 1: as another tool to get I guess, some attention. I
43:23
Speaker 1: don't know how else to describe it, and sympathy and comfort,
43:28
Speaker 1: I guess. So from a psychiatric perspective, what cultural or
43:33
Speaker 1: institutional factors do you think are the most underdiscussed as
43:37
Speaker 1: contributors to male suicide rates?
43:42
Speaker 3: The family law, family law, family law.
43:47
Speaker 2: I mean, we're you know, we're discussing it, and that's
43:50
Speaker 2: that we have to continue to. But we have to
43:55
Speaker 2: we have to advocate for reform that's the that's the
43:59
Speaker 2: best thing we can do for for men. And so
44:03
Speaker 2: I think that, yeah, if we can, if we can
44:07
Speaker 2: change how women behave in relation to men, if we
44:11
Speaker 2: can somehow get women to respect men again, their place
44:16
Speaker 2: in society, how they contribute to society, and prepare women
44:21
Speaker 2: better for being married, for for what men need in
44:25
Speaker 2: in marriage, stop over emphasizing their contributions. Try to get
44:33
Speaker 2: the divorce rate down. That is what we need to
44:36
Speaker 2: talk about to make things better for men.
44:39
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, mm hmm. You for sure. You said earlier
44:44
Speaker 1: that one of the things that the cycle, the mental
44:48
Speaker 1: health field does is it it's sort of like shifted
44:52
Speaker 1: towards focusing on validating people and not judging them, you know,
44:57
Speaker 1: not judging them. It's like a super like you know,
45:00
Speaker 1: like you said, moving heaven and earth to make people
45:03
Speaker 1: feel comfortable. Does that even apply to men though? Do
45:06
Speaker 1: we do that for men? I mean, I feel like, yes,
45:09
Speaker 1: we do that for women, and I don't think it's
45:10
Speaker 1: good for them because they need I think that they're
45:13
Speaker 1: better off with the truth, even if it's uncomfortable. But
45:17
Speaker 1: I don't think we give that to men. Am I wrong?
45:21
Speaker 2: I don't think I think that we give that to
45:26
Speaker 2: men as a reward if they act like women, ah,
45:29
Speaker 2: but to a lesser degree, then they can also get
45:33
Speaker 2: validation and accommodation. But then they have to be very
45:36
Speaker 2: subservient and very meek, and even then they get it.
45:41
Speaker 3: To a lesser degree than women.
45:44
Speaker 2: I think there's always going to be that resentment towards
45:49
Speaker 2: the male sex, regardless of how feminine we make them.
45:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think do you think that the state
46:00
Speaker 1: of mental health as what because I mean you said
46:03
Speaker 1: that you've been getting a lot more male clients, But
46:06
Speaker 1: do you think that men generally avoid the you know,
46:10
Speaker 1: seeking therapy because of the essentially the fact that therapy
46:15
Speaker 1: seems to pathologize masculinity.
46:20
Speaker 2: Yes, if it's therapy in itself is a very feminine thing. Now,
46:25
Speaker 2: and I have the sense that men will respect themselves
46:30
Speaker 2: less if they.
46:31
Speaker 3: Go to therapy mm hmm.
46:34
Speaker 2: And there and there and their right too, because that
46:40
Speaker 2: is usually the type of treatment though received, this infantoization
46:45
Speaker 2: and feminization, and they will not be understood. So what
46:51
Speaker 2: I hear from them is just that I have to
46:54
Speaker 2: go to if I go to therapy, I even there
46:57
Speaker 2: have to start from a point where I have to
47:00
Speaker 2: my innocence.
47:01
Speaker 3: They can't. Women go to therapy.
47:03
Speaker 2: They're instantly believed everything they tell thems instantly the truth
47:07
Speaker 2: in that room.
47:08
Speaker 3: And men they don't have that privilege, even with the
47:11
Speaker 3: therapist that you pay.
47:13
Speaker 2: You have to convince them that your wife is mentally ill.
47:18
Speaker 2: You have to convince them that she's she has a
47:21
Speaker 2: a that she has cluster be traits that you know
47:25
Speaker 2: you will all they will always other side you as
47:28
Speaker 2: a man if you go to therapy. So that's why
47:31
Speaker 2: I think a lot of men shy away from from that.
47:34
Speaker 2: They just they don't want to go through that. It's
47:38
Speaker 2: a it's a it's a mental load. I can completely understand.
47:43
Speaker 2: That is usually then what they tell me. And they
47:47
Speaker 2: just wanted to go to some place where I didn't
47:49
Speaker 2: have to where someone would believe me.
47:52
Speaker 3: And they know.
47:52
Speaker 2: From from my writing and my content that I that
47:55
Speaker 2: I do.
47:56
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. You wrote on your blog or your substack
48:01
Speaker 1: rather psychobabble, you have an article called the Psychological Cost
48:05
Speaker 1: of Female Empowerment. Can you tell me like with just
48:10
Speaker 1: summarize like what the theory is here on this if
48:13
Speaker 1: you don't mind it, it's I think that this is
48:16
Speaker 1: like a huge issue. So I just want to go
48:20
Speaker 1: into that a little bit more. What is the psychological
48:23
Speaker 1: cost of female empowerment?
48:26
Speaker 2: It is that well, here in this article I go
48:30
Speaker 2: through the sort of feminist research literature on how to
48:38
Speaker 2: get women to feel better about themselves, the women's well being.
48:43
Speaker 2: So this whole the background of female empowerment was for
48:47
Speaker 2: their the long term well being.
48:51
Speaker 3: That if you, if they if.
48:53
Speaker 2: You increased their self esteem, that'll be good for women's psychologically.
48:59
Speaker 3: And my point is that it does the opposite.
49:04
Speaker 2: It makes them incapable of having a long term relationship,
49:09
Speaker 2: incapable of intimacy because.
49:12
Speaker 3: What they do, and I go through that research a
49:15
Speaker 3: little bit.
49:16
Speaker 2: When they increase women's self esteem, they create a sort
49:21
Speaker 2: of brittle confidence. They make them angry. That is really
49:25
Speaker 2: the only way you can do that. So empowerment is
49:28
Speaker 2: in the trait extra version. If you look at the
49:32
Speaker 2: Big five, and to make people more assertive, the only
49:39
Speaker 2: way to really do that is to make them angry.
49:42
Speaker 3: That's when you'll be assertive.
49:45
Speaker 2: And so they have told women all the different ways
49:49
Speaker 2: that they have to cause the grievance and all the
49:52
Speaker 2: different ways that they've been wrong.
49:54
Speaker 3: And if something's wrong in your life.
49:56
Speaker 2: There's always someone to blame, the men, society, parents, always
50:00
Speaker 2: someone to blame. And that anger feels good in the moment,
50:05
Speaker 2: feels better than anxious.
50:07
Speaker 3: Being anxious feels.
50:08
Speaker 2: Better than the negative emotions that they usually sit with
50:11
Speaker 2: because women are higher in neuroticism. So the solution to
50:15
Speaker 2: that is to make them angry to stand up for themselves.
50:18
Speaker 3: Listen, that's what we do in therapy.
50:21
Speaker 2: If someone is sort of pathologically self sacrificing, you have that.
50:25
Speaker 2: It's people who are extremely agreeable to the point where
50:28
Speaker 2: they just cannot stand up for themselves, so they'll just
50:31
Speaker 2: be in these doormat relationships, right, and then resentment starts
50:35
Speaker 2: building and it's really bad. Then the only solution to
50:39
Speaker 2: that is to make them just angry enough that they'll
50:42
Speaker 2: stand up for what they need.
50:43
Speaker 3: Just once.
50:45
Speaker 2: You'll not be able to get more than that, but
50:47
Speaker 2: just once, tell people what they need.
50:51
Speaker 3: And that's what.
50:51
Speaker 2: They've been doing to women, and it creates this sort
50:55
Speaker 2: of brittle it creates a fragile narcissism. Arcissism is that
51:01
Speaker 2: assertiveness but with a lot of neuroticism. And so that's
51:07
Speaker 2: the that's the cost of female empowerment, that we've created
51:12
Speaker 2: women who are uh not able to form stable long
51:18
Speaker 2: term relationships because they are resentful and angry.
51:24
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
51:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, not all, not all.
51:29
Speaker 1: No, of course, not all. Do you think that? Okay? So,
51:37
Speaker 1: one of the things that I'm particularly focused on when
51:40
Speaker 1: I do content is returning the father to the right,
51:46
Speaker 1: rightful place. As a psychologist, what are some of the
51:50
Speaker 1: harms that absentee fathers have on men and boys and
51:56
Speaker 1: girls that are not talked about enough. I mean, we
51:59
Speaker 1: hear a lot of you know, girls are more likely
52:02
Speaker 1: to become pregnant as teenagers, you know, because or be
52:07
Speaker 1: sort of reckless with their sexuality. Boys are more likely
52:10
Speaker 1: to perhaps get involved with crime or joining gangs. Are
52:13
Speaker 1: there other things, maybe, like things that are more like,
52:17
Speaker 1: you know, mental health related that effect boys and girls.
52:20
Speaker 1: When there's no fathers in the home and you just
52:22
Speaker 1: have a mom doing everything.
52:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that there's a higher likelihood of developing
52:33
Speaker 2: a borderline personality disorder. I think that you're more likely
52:38
Speaker 2: to be anxious, depressed, behavioral behavioral disorders. I think that
52:46
Speaker 2: when the mom has when the mother has too much influence,
52:50
Speaker 2: too much dominance in the home and ADHD is likely
52:54
Speaker 2: in both and it's not just absent to your fathers.
52:59
Speaker 2: We also have to look at a home where the
53:00
Speaker 2: father is shushed, when the father is afraid to do
53:04
Speaker 2: what he really does best, afraid to to.
53:08
Speaker 3: To be strong.
53:10
Speaker 2: Of course, when you have the always have the D
53:13
Speaker 2: word hanging over your head, you can't assert yourself. They
53:16
Speaker 2: don't feel comfortable enough to do that, so they just
53:20
Speaker 2: they say yes, yes, dear. So when you have a
53:23
Speaker 2: mother is too dominant and infantalizing and over nurturing, and
53:29
Speaker 2: then then then you will have kids who are likely
53:34
Speaker 2: to become emotionally unstable in all different ways.
53:38
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. How can you tell the how can you
53:41
Speaker 1: tell the difference between I don't know, like an anxiety
53:46
Speaker 1: disorder and general anxiety that everybody has, because this is
53:49
Speaker 1: another one of those things that I think gets overstated
53:51
Speaker 1: by a lot of people.
53:55
Speaker 2: General anxiety and and well, we can all feel anxious.
54:01
Speaker 2: An anxiety disorder it is when when it affects many
54:08
Speaker 2: areas of your life, when it affects your functioning, So
54:12
Speaker 2: when you have so much anxiety that you can't sleep
54:15
Speaker 2: for most of the days in the week, when it
54:18
Speaker 2: affects how you can get up in the morning and
54:20
Speaker 2: go to work. When people around you are affected by it,
54:26
Speaker 2: when it disturbs your your your interpersonal relationships, that's that's
54:33
Speaker 2: when you'll start calling it an anxiety disorder. And then
54:37
Speaker 2: people are more or less neurotic or more more or
54:40
Speaker 2: less have a tendency to let their negative emotions take
54:46
Speaker 2: take hold, and that, you know, that's a different that's
54:51
Speaker 2: a different issue that they're just you know, less pleasant
54:55
Speaker 2: to be around.
54:57
Speaker 1: Have you seen Helen Andrews's article she wrote a while
55:02
Speaker 1: back called the Great Feminization, and she talked about how
55:08
Speaker 1: if any organization or group or company, for example, becomes
55:15
Speaker 1: like over a certain percentage female, like I think it's
55:18
Speaker 1: sixty percent, it becomes feminized, and that alters the entire
55:22
Speaker 1: culture of that of the of that space, whether it's
55:25
Speaker 1: in work or schools or whatever.
55:28
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think we see that perfectly in health and
55:31
Speaker 2: mental health. And I think we wouldn't have seen a
55:35
Speaker 2: lot of the things we saw during COVID if the
55:39
Speaker 2: institutions weren't feminized.
55:40
Speaker 3: There was no no Stow.
55:42
Speaker 2: Stows isn't during COVID, and there's just this over I
55:48
Speaker 2: think she's right.
55:50
Speaker 3: I'm glad that that she got so popular.
55:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, although a lot of people took issue with the
55:56
Speaker 1: stuff that she wrote and the fact that it's being
56:00
Speaker 1: peded around.
56:00
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, there enough.
56:04
Speaker 2: I don't I don't think that. I think a lot
56:07
Speaker 2: of it's understated.
56:09
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, you don't think hell and Andrews goes far enough?
56:13
Speaker 1: Is that what you mean?
56:15
Speaker 3: Yes?
56:15
Speaker 2: I think you know, the courts are already over I
56:19
Speaker 2: think there that's already stacked. It's it's not something that
56:23
Speaker 2: all this can happen that it's this we're.
56:26
Speaker 3: Far The line is adopt to them.
56:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, are you are things worse in I mean I'm
56:34
Speaker 1: assuming that we're talking about specifically, at least more or
56:38
Speaker 1: less the United States, But are things like this as
56:41
Speaker 1: bad or worse in Norway? Because you guys are more
56:44
Speaker 1: egalitarian than us.
56:45
Speaker 3: Right, right, it's right.
56:49
Speaker 2: The divorce rates are similar, kids growing up with broken homes. Yeah,
56:55
Speaker 2: so that that's still the same birth rates, but also
57:01
Speaker 2: very very much declining. And I don't count immigrants.
57:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, so.
57:09
Speaker 3: I think.
57:11
Speaker 2: What's different is that men are fathers, are likely to
57:15
Speaker 2: have the fifty to fifty custody. That's that's you know,
57:22
Speaker 2: that's good. Yeah, divorce isn't good for kids. So, you know,
57:25
Speaker 2: I hesitate to use the word good here. They you know,
57:31
Speaker 2: men shouldn't be divorced in the first place. Yeah, but
57:35
Speaker 2: if we want what's best for kids. But yes, there's
57:39
Speaker 2: more of fifty to fifty split in Switzerland as well
57:43
Speaker 2: as in Norway. Norway they started making these apartment buildings
57:47
Speaker 2: where you have a common room with the kids room
57:49
Speaker 2: in the middle, and then you have the parents on
57:52
Speaker 2: each side, so that you know, after the divorce you
57:56
Speaker 2: can have the mother's room is closed and then you know,
57:59
Speaker 2: you can unlock the other side when it's the dad's
58:02
Speaker 2: weak and the kids sort of stays in the middle.
58:05
Speaker 3: It's very dystopian.
58:07
Speaker 1: That's weird.
58:08
Speaker 3: That, Yeah, that's so weird.
58:11
Speaker 2: Oh no, this is the future and this is so
58:13
Speaker 2: good for the kids.
58:15
Speaker 3: It's like, no, no, that is not in any way good.
58:18
Speaker 3: I mean, you're preparing, you're making it.
58:21
Speaker 2: The problem is that we made it so easy to divorce,
58:25
Speaker 2: which makes it's harder to divorce. Not oh we already
58:29
Speaker 2: have these apartment buildings were built for you.
58:31
Speaker 3: That is wrong.
58:32
Speaker 2: It's not good, and the kids end up more confused
58:36
Speaker 2: because it's none They end up feeling like they are
58:39
Speaker 2: living alone.
58:40
Speaker 3: Sometimes moms there, sometimes dad's there.
58:43
Speaker 2: This is my private apartment and the door it's it's
58:47
Speaker 2: it's very So there are different issues in Norway.
58:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, you have different issues. Ye fifty custodys
58:57
Speaker 1: so so there there needs to be Yeah, they're needs
59:00
Speaker 1: to be something done to. I don't know how else
59:05
Speaker 1: to described except to you know, expect. We should take
59:08
Speaker 1: marriage more seriously. I mean what else.
59:11
Speaker 3: Absolutely should make it harder to divorce.
59:13
Speaker 2: It is not okay to tell women that if you
59:17
Speaker 2: are unhappy, you can break up your family. Unhappy is
59:21
Speaker 2: not good enough. There's no such thing as growing apart. Well,
59:24
Speaker 2: then you're responsible to grow back together.
59:27
Speaker 3: M h.
59:28
Speaker 2: I do have to tell women that they are responsible
59:31
Speaker 2: for their choices. They make the bad, bad choice after
59:35
Speaker 2: the next. That's what I saw in the clinically, these
59:38
Speaker 2: altainly something year old women who just they're there because
59:41
Speaker 2: not because they have psychological issues, just have to deal
59:44
Speaker 2: with their bad choices. No ever, say that these are
59:48
Speaker 2: the consequences of your bad choices and you're accountable for them.
59:52
Speaker 2: If you made your your your marriage unhappy, then make
59:56
Speaker 2: it better again.
59:58
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, women in accountability that's oil and water right there.
1:00:03
Speaker 1: So unfortunately, and and I think it's it's it's largely
1:00:06
Speaker 1: our fault for like, you know, essentially setting them up
1:00:10
Speaker 1: for that. So that's why I think, like, collectively, you know,
1:00:14
Speaker 1: we've allowed it. We we've basically made women's independence, empowerment, liberation,
1:00:21
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, more important than family,
1:00:24
Speaker 1: than children, than civilization itself. They look like right at
1:00:28
Speaker 1: the front of the line as well, are women you know,
1:00:31
Speaker 1: sufficiently liberated, then okay, we can start thinking about the
1:00:35
Speaker 1: other stuff. And even then we're not doing that because
1:00:39
Speaker 1: families are not forming, you know, birth birth rates are declining,
1:00:42
Speaker 1: and we're not even considering what we that we need
1:00:45
Speaker 1: children like literally to we need people to run everything,
1:00:50
Speaker 1: so you know, like we need men to get us
1:00:53
Speaker 1: the raw materials to make the things that women use
1:00:56
Speaker 1: in HR departments.
1:00:58
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, so they're enslaved by their bad mental health.
1:01:03
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree. I think I say liberated ironically
1:01:07
Speaker 1: because it's that's like how it would be described, and
1:01:11
Speaker 1: I think that's fun to do. Yeah, it's the psyop
1:01:13
Speaker 1: that has women thinking that they're free when they're not,
1:01:17
Speaker 1: you know, So.
1:01:20
Speaker 2: No, no, but I think you know, I think it's
1:01:25
Speaker 2: it's hopeful there are more women now that are coming
1:01:28
Speaker 2: out and saying, listen, we need to talk about what
1:01:30
Speaker 2: are women's obligations, what are mother's obligations, and and it
1:01:36
Speaker 2: needs to come from us. That is what I That's
1:01:38
Speaker 2: why I focus on the female psyche because yeah, well,
1:01:43
Speaker 2: first of all, I was gonna listen to men's issues.
1:01:45
Speaker 2: I no one cares about how lonely and suicidal men are.
1:01:50
Speaker 2: But I do think it can be improved if we
1:01:54
Speaker 2: focus on female accountability.
1:01:57
Speaker 1: That's a really great, uh personspective. I agree with you,
1:02:01
Speaker 1: and I'm glad that you said that because a lot
1:02:03
Speaker 1: of us do believe that over here. So how do
1:02:07
Speaker 1: you have any ideas on how we hold women accountable?
1:02:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's start.
1:02:15
Speaker 2: I hope that we can get to a point where
1:02:17
Speaker 2: we say, no, you don't have a mental health disorder.
1:02:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that we started teaching our daughters differently.
1:02:26
Speaker 1: You have daughters, right, I have.
1:02:28
Speaker 3: A daughter and two sons.
1:02:31
Speaker 1: Yes, and yeah, go ahead.
1:02:34
Speaker 2: No, it's you know, I encourage her agreeableness. Just that
1:02:38
Speaker 2: to piece out about female agreeableness, how we erode it,
1:02:43
Speaker 2: how we encourage women, young girls to just you know,
1:02:46
Speaker 2: be assertive over everything else, just prioritize their own needs
1:02:51
Speaker 2: ahead of others. And I try to teach her differently,
1:02:55
Speaker 2: try to say it's good to be kind and self sacrificing.
1:02:59
Speaker 2: And no matter how many times the teachers tell you
1:03:02
Speaker 2: to speak up and and do what the other girls do,
1:03:06
Speaker 2: which is being rude, not confident, being rude, you you're
1:03:10
Speaker 2: not going.
1:03:10
Speaker 3: To do that. That is not going to make things
1:03:12
Speaker 3: better for you. And I say, ultimately, that's that's what
1:03:16
Speaker 3: men want. They want a woman who's kind and who's
1:03:19
Speaker 3: a genuine nurturer. They're not going to go for the
1:03:22
Speaker 3: rude women.
1:03:25
Speaker 1: No, no, not at all. Yeah, I think that they think.
1:03:29
Speaker 1: I think that what they think they're doing is acting
1:03:31
Speaker 1: like men. But they're not acting like men. They but
1:03:35
Speaker 1: that just shows like what they think a man is, right,
1:03:39
Speaker 1: like their idea of what a man is, and they're
1:03:43
Speaker 1: and they try to embody it and it turns into
1:03:46
Speaker 1: this almost like a really awful stereotype, you know, like
1:03:50
Speaker 1: a straw man of a man, like for example, trans men,
1:03:56
Speaker 1: women who who you know, try to live as men.
1:03:59
Speaker 1: They when they do all of the let's say the
1:04:03
Speaker 1: surface level changes to their body, like they get surgeries done,
1:04:06
Speaker 1: or they start taking hormones or whatever, and then they
1:04:09
Speaker 1: start feeling like they are a man. Have you ever
1:04:12
Speaker 1: noticed that their version of what a man is is
1:04:15
Speaker 1: the most douchey looking, like covered in tattoos and you know,
1:04:20
Speaker 1: like like just like this extremely I don't know what
1:04:24
Speaker 1: you would even call it. It's like a really bad stereotype.
1:04:27
Speaker 1: You know, they get they get their their mustache as.
1:04:30
Speaker 3: Like yeah, yeah, it's like when my daughter plays dress up.
1:04:33
Speaker 3: That's why you dress up. That is what they're doing.
1:04:35
Speaker 3: They're playing with identities.
1:04:37
Speaker 2: That's what I talk about in this dissociative identity disorder episode.
1:04:41
Speaker 3: They are playing with identities.
1:04:42
Speaker 2: Is exactly like I come into the room and my
1:04:45
Speaker 2: kids are playing and.
1:04:46
Speaker 3: Now you're like that, No, I'm like this. It's the
1:04:48
Speaker 3: most extreme version.
1:04:51
Speaker 2: Of the thing that they're trying to inhabit. It's their
1:04:56
Speaker 2: little kids. That's why they're very emotionally immature, and they
1:05:01
Speaker 2: are allowed to remain that way because there's always someone
1:05:04
Speaker 2: to blame. We're always giving them someone to blame so
1:05:07
Speaker 2: they don't have to take responsibility. Yeah, so we're having
1:05:12
Speaker 2: them just an epidemic of immature emotionally immature women.
1:05:19
Speaker 3: So I think that we can. I'm starting to see
1:05:21
Speaker 3: a little shift in that.
1:05:24
Speaker 2: Women around me, my peers are trying to say, yeah,
1:05:27
Speaker 2: maybe you know, maybe they should start forming a family earlier,
1:05:31
Speaker 2: and they do see the consequences around them. Yeah, so
1:05:37
Speaker 2: you just try to see some see some hope.
1:05:40
Speaker 3: Just we're obligated to have hope in the future, right, mm.
1:05:44
Speaker 1: Hmmm, I think so. Yeah, I mean I have hope.
1:05:48
Speaker 1: But I'm a fool. I guess. Uh so, Alixon, my boss,
1:05:53
Speaker 1: he wants to like ask you some questions too. I
1:05:57
Speaker 1: might have her out of time, but you're not time.
1:06:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, my husband is waiting.
1:06:04
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sorry. Can I okay, let me just let's
1:06:07
Speaker 1: wrap it up.
1:06:07
Speaker 3: Then I apologize.
1:06:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to feed him. I'm sorry. All right.
1:06:13
Speaker 1: Let me just ask you one like a you know,
1:06:16
Speaker 1: like a ending question. I guess, looking ahead, what trends
1:06:20
Speaker 1: in psychiatry or culture give you the most concern for
1:06:23
Speaker 1: the next generation of men and boys?
1:06:27
Speaker 3: Oh?
1:06:29
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, but the suicide trends for men and boys.
1:06:39
Speaker 2: I worry about the neuro developmental stuff. I worry about
1:06:43
Speaker 2: all the neuro developmental labels. It is a way to
1:06:48
Speaker 2: infantilize them. And I see that mothers are doing. Mothers
1:06:52
Speaker 2: who have, like we talked about, too much dominance, they
1:06:55
Speaker 2: tend to reach for diagnosed of ADHD and autism for
1:07:02
Speaker 2: their little boys so that they can so that they
1:07:07
Speaker 2: can over nurture, so that it would increase their control.
1:07:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's transition development, that transitioning.
1:07:17
Speaker 2: But but that has that that's gone down a bit
1:07:21
Speaker 2: now that trend is sort of on the I think
1:07:25
Speaker 2: the other the the autism and ADHD, that is a
1:07:29
Speaker 2: worse trend. It's insidious, it's not going anywhere, it's gaining
1:07:34
Speaker 2: more traction. So so that's what I'm worried about. I'm
1:07:40
Speaker 2: very worried when people come to me and say, yeah,
1:07:41
Speaker 2: we're going for that ADHD diagnosis them, you're in it
1:07:44
Speaker 2: for life, so medications involved, they don't get to grow up.
1:07:50
Speaker 3: Then that it's the Hansel and Gretel story.
1:07:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's a that's a big concern. Well,
1:07:58
Speaker 1: I did get one super chat. I'm gonna read out
1:08:01
Speaker 1: and then I guess we'll uh end to hear. But
1:08:03
Speaker 1: thank you, Hannah for giving us your time. We'll have
1:08:06
Speaker 1: you back on if you're if you're open to it. Sure, sure, okay, awesome.
1:08:10
Speaker 1: So Albatross gave us five dollars super chat and says,
1:08:13
Speaker 1: it's just being a damsel in distress with extra steps.
1:08:16
Speaker 1: It's all so exhausting. It is always a new way
1:08:20
Speaker 1: to reframe it. I think that women are just generally
1:08:22
Speaker 1: like afraid and they want to feel secure, and they
1:08:26
Speaker 1: don't feel secure with men, so they're trying to come
1:08:28
Speaker 1: up with other ways because they're they're afraid of men
1:08:31
Speaker 1: because they've been propagandized too. So uh okay, well yeah,
1:08:35
Speaker 1: doctor Hannah, thank you so much for coming. Please come
1:08:38
Speaker 1: back on if you're willing, we'll talk. I want to
1:08:40
Speaker 1: talk about cultural things as well, like the way because
1:08:43
Speaker 1: I notice that you talk a lot about the way
1:08:46
Speaker 1: that film and television and music and stuff like that
1:08:49
Speaker 1: is also contributing to these issues becausically the the you know,
1:08:54
Speaker 1: the feminist and the anti male misinderous stuff. So thanks
1:08:58
Speaker 1: so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.
1:09:02
Speaker 1: And you guys that are watching at home, thanks for coming.
1:09:05
Speaker 1: Sorry about the little audio issues we had in the beginning,
1:09:07
Speaker 1: but I think we fix it up just fine. So
1:09:10
Speaker 1: if you guys want to follow Hannah on her substack,
1:09:13
Speaker 1: her YouTube channel, her X page. It's all in the description.
1:09:17
Speaker 1: Go check out Cycho Babble. She's done really great work
1:09:20
Speaker 1: and it's you know, I'll always be open to another
1:09:24
Speaker 1: person working in mental health. It actually like wants to
1:09:26
Speaker 1: help men and isn't justice try and make a buck?
1:09:29
Speaker 1: I guess. So with all that said, if you guys
1:09:33
Speaker 1: like this video, please like, subscribe. If you're not already subscribed,
1:09:36
Speaker 1: hit the BELF notifications, leave us a comment, let us
1:09:39
Speaker 1: know what you guys think about what we talked about
1:09:40
Speaker 1: on the show today, and share the video because sharing
1:09:43
Speaker 1: is caring. Thanks so much for coming on this episode
1:09:45
Speaker 1: of the Fireside Chat and we will talk to you
1:09:47
Speaker 1: guys in the next one. Thank you again so much