Latest / Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast / Episode 482: Inside Georgetown’s ESM — Preparing the Next Generation of Sustainability Leaders

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Episode 482: Inside Georgetown’s ESM — Preparing the Next Generation of Sustainability Leaders · Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast

• 0:17
  Speaker A: Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond, and today we're taking a look at a really interesting graduate program from Georgetown University that sits right at the intersection of business, science, and sustainability. The Master of Science in Environment and Sustainability Management, often referred to as the ESM program. As companies and governments around the world grapple with climate change, resource management, and the transition to more sustainable business models, there's growing demand for professionals who understand both environmental science and how organizations actually operate. Georgetown's ESM program was designed to help develop exactly that kind of leader. And today we're going to explore what the program looks like from both the academic and student perspectives. To do that, I've asked a couple of special guests to join the show. So let's bring them on here with some quick introductions. First up is Dr. Carrie Carfagno. She's the Associate Teaching professor at Georgetown University with a dual appointment at the McDonough School of Business and the Earth Commons Institute. She's also the Program Director of Georgetown's Master of Science in Environment and Sustainability Management program. Kerry's work focuses on how businesses and leaders respond to climate, risk, and sustainability challenges. And she has spent nearly two decades teaching sustainable business leadership and communication. Carrie, thanks so much for making time to join us today. It's a great pleasure to have you on the show.
• 1:44
  Speaker B: Thank you for having me here, Graham.
• 1:46
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I want to also introduce our second guest. We're going to be joined by Cecilia Rios. She is a recent grad of Georgetown's Master of Science, or the ESM program, we're going to call it, from Here Forward. And Cecilia now works as an environmental event specialist with EMS Inc. Where she supports the EPA's CERCLO Education center, helping develop and deliver environmental training programs across the agency's 10 regional offices. She earned her undergraduate degree in environmental Studies from Baylor University, and she's also the co host of the Sustainability Defined Podcast, where she and her co host explore sustainability topics through conversations with industry experts. Cecilia, thanks so much for making time to join us today, too.
• 2:29
  Speaker C: Hi, Graham. Thanks for having me. And also. Hi, Kerry. Lovely to see you again.
• 2:33
  Speaker B: Great to see you.
• 2:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. We've done this before where whenever I can. Having a current student or recent grad combined with someone who's faculty and in kind of the administration at a program, I just always think paints such a complete picture. So I cannot wait to dive into these questions for you guys. I want to start with Carrie. We'll start with the ESM program at Georgetown is like a joint initiative between the Earth Commons institute and the McDonough School of Business. Can you give our listeners the quick overview, like what is this program designed to do and who is it for?
• 3:06
  Speaker B: The ESM program is a joint initiative between Georgetown Earth Commons institute and the McDonough School of Business. It's designed for students who want to lead sustainability initiatives across sectors. And it's a 10 month, 30 credit master's program that stem designated. That 5050 split means the students are getting leading content from business leaders in our business school as well as leading scientists from the Earth Commons Institute. The cohort size is about 45 to 55 students each year. And those classes that our students go through with the cohort mod are for ESM students only. This means the professors are able to customize the course for our students. So the students are getting finance accounting strategy, but they're also getting a finance professor that is using examples that are all centered around sustainability. You're going to learn future value of money and how to calculate it, but you're going to do it through the lens of sustainability, both for strategy, for profitability as well as for financial stability and what is a good investment and what isn't. And students benefit from getting both that science and the business together and getting that perspective as they go through this with a cohort model where they're learning from professors that know their areas of interest but also want to make sure they've got all the fundamentals they need to be successful.
• 4:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, and it's just such a, I mean, this, this has been, you know, kind of, the writing's been on the wall for a while that this is so critical and companies everywhere are kind of dealing with this stuff. And, you know, I want to turn to Cecilia now. I want to ask you a question about what drew you to the ESM program at Georgetown and what kinds of career goals or interests brought you into the sustainability space to begin with?
• 4:44
  Speaker C: Great question. To be honest, for me, the MSESM program was kind of a next stepping stone in my academic career. My undergraduate degree was in environmental science with a minor in business. And this program fully took that a step further and dove into the world of business and science in, in an interdisciplinary way that was really interesting and connected all these foundational problems that I was already interested in and just further explained this discipline even more. What I really liked about the program, however, was how everyone was from a different background. So we got to have really productive conversations and discussions and learn from many different perspectives. And I think that's what drew me to this program specifically was how everyone was so different. We got to learn from a lot of different point of views, cultures, backgrounds. It was really cool.
• 5:46
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I can see how, given your undergraduate background, this type of degree makes a lot of sense because it takes it all to the next level at that master's level, I guess. Kerry, I want to turn back to you. One of the most distinctive aspects of ESM is the 5050 blend, as you said, of science and business. I wondered, how does the curriculum bring those two perspectives together and why is that combination important for today's sustainability challenges? Just thinking about. Because when you think about a typical sort of business school program, it's all accounting, finance, et cetera. And so the idea of marrying that with some hard science, and it's really both fascinating, but also maybe challenging. So, yeah, walk us through how that's all come together.
• 6:31
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's actually been a lot of fun and it's a lot of fun to watch the students work on it because it has been very purposeful. We get the accounting, finance strategy and supply chain operations, all the things you're talking. Talking about, but we also marry them with scientific measurement, understanding of scientific systems. And that idea that students are doing both really, in our opinion, gives them a competitive advantage out in the world, because as Cecilia talked about, you might have an environmental science background or you might have an accounting background, but you get to be on a team with each other and figure out how those strengths, as well as the content you're learning, can build something of more value. So the synergy is really there. One of the things with the climate science, the energy systems, the ecosystems they learned is that the students all get Greenhouse Gas Protocol scope 3 certification. So they get that and then they get in the classroom and they learn LCI lifecycle assessment, where they learn open LCA software, and then they go into a supply chain course where that professor knows they've already learned this material. And so you get a benefit not only from the business side, as you're looking at a business model, but you understand the science that built the decision making on how you look at the life cycle of a product to know its impact in the world. And so you just, it gives a perspective and a deeper understanding of the material than you could get in either individual classes or just with a business degree or just with a science degree.
• 7:55
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I will say you do hear some universities saying, oh, come and do an mba and you can take a couple of elective courses in our school of Environment and This is so different from that, in my view, because it just feels far more thorough. And you're just giving people so much more in terms of preparing them. I want to stay with you, Kerry, because I have a question about the way the program is structured. I mean, one thing that comes up in research about graduate education is how isolating it can be and how cohort models help create a built in support system for students. This program does run on a cohort model. I wondered if you could take some time to describe what does that mean and why was that model important in designing the degree, and perhaps talk a little bit about how the cohort structure support students both academically and personally during what can be a pretty intense graduate experience.
• 8:46
  Speaker B: I'm so glad you asked that. It's a passion of mine that we have the cohort model. One of the biggest reasons that I love it is Jesuit universities in general, particularly Georgetown, really believes in CURA personalis, which means basically care for the whole person. We think the cohort model is a big piece of that. You've got this idea of students learning together. You've got an idea of recognizing that we will not succeed in the things we want to do in this world unless we learn to work together. So students that are recently out of school, along with students that have been out of school doing a career pivot, say six to eight years, and even some students that have come back after decades of being in the work world and want a sustainability degree, are all in this cohort together, learning from one another in groups. But because of that cohort model, there's a certain synergy of them getting to know one another, getting to work with each other. But it also gives them the ability to not feel alone, which research has shown is definitely a problem, particularly in grad school, where you take a class here and there and you meet a few people, but a lot of people are busy. They work as well outside of the program. Often because of the cohort model, our groups really get to bond more, get to spend more time together. And so you get a social support network and an emotional support network, as well as, frankly, a network of people that become your peer mentors and then go on to become contacts out in the work world in an area where you know what they're capable of and they know what you're capable of. Then you add to that the biggest reason that we initially did it, which is the pedagogical reasons, what I just mentioned, the idea that the finance professor knows everyone's already had accounting. They didn't just take them in whatever order. And also our students learn R. They learn r with a professor of science who he then in his spring semester can add in his scientific courses. He can expect them to create their own research because he knows what they're capable of from a data analytics standpoint. He's also challenged them to do storytelling with data. I also do some data viz. That means every professor after us knows what they can expect. They know what they can expect out of a group project and frankly, they can expect more. So the students are getting more out of a 1.5 credit course than they would have otherwise because each professor knows what they've already learned and can build off of it. So we tend to share our syllabi. Our supply chain course also builds off of the fact that the students have already done Greenhouse Gas Protocol certification. And so he can just, he doesn't have to do that kind of foundational work in a 1.5 or a 3 credit course. That professor can go straight into the meat of it and go deeper so we get more quality in our content and what the students learn in a 30 credit master's program as well as we get more comradery and support. The other thing that's really fun for me in the cohort model is if you've got a student that knows our coming in, they get really popular early on in the program because they help others. Two years ago, one of the students was like, hey, if you buy the pizza, I will stay around for anyone. And it pretty much became almost a post course pizza party where they were all learning R together. Then when you got into econ, that person then relied on someone else to be like, no, I've got more of a background in here, let me help you out. So that idea that they're learning to learn from each other is going to serve them well because climate change, what we're doing with sustainability, it's evolving rapidly. The learning how to learn is as important as the content we're teaching.
• 12:07
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love that you're talking about all the sort of the connected nature between one class and another and the faculty obviously collaborating to know what, you know, what students are coming in with, what they just did in the prior unit, et cetera. Cecilia, now I'm dying to talk to you about this. Tell me a little bit about the learning experience. Like what did it feel like day to day while you were going through this program? What are the classes like? And yeah, just what was it like being within that cohort?
• 12:32
  Speaker C: Yeah, I talked a little bit about this before, but I really loved how everyone was from a different background, not just academically, but culturally as well. We got to have really productive conversations, especially with the topic of climate change, where you need a fully rounded perspective. It was really interesting to learn in that way. I think Carrie mentioned this as well, too, and this is such a great point for a cohort model. But learning from other people was truly an experience that I didn't get to have that much in undergraduate. I think undergraduate is more sort of focused on you and your own journey and learning your degree. But this master's program really does facilitate conversations and group work, which I think is something that is very important in preparing, you know, for you to go on and do your job. Because nothing is very individual anymore. Everything is very collaborative and group focused. And I think this masters did a really good job of that and allowing you to lean on other people and learn from them, but also you becoming the teacher helps you learn that material, you know, at an even greater scale than you could have learned before, I think. What else? I just really like the cohort model as well. You know, in a world that is post pandemic, and we're always looking for a community outlet, I think this master's program really provided that we were all sort of in the same boat, you know, coming in, looking for jobs, just struggling together. And it was kind of a beautiful experience to get to struggle together and lean on each other. And we really did create community. You know, after every final exam, we would have some sort of event where we would just bond and hold hands and cry a little.
• 14:30
  Speaker A: Excellent. So I do want to. I want to ask Kerry a question, because I realized, you know, in some of the research that I was doing, that this program is based on Georgetown's capitol campus in D.C. and for those listeners who don't know, you have the sort of main campuses in Georgetown, that part of D.C. and then you have the Capitol campus, which is. I mean, I'm not a D.C. person, but I would say more downtown. I don't know how to describe how people talk about D.C. but how does that location influence the learning experience, whether, you know, through guest speakers, policy exposure, or career opportunities? Because I'm guessing. I mean, I'm picturing you guys are a stone's throw from where laws are being made, where policies are being written, et cetera. So take me through some of that. How does that impact the experience in this program?
• 15:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, the Capital Campus is a newer campus for the ESM program, but it's really one building up from the law school. And the law school's been here for generations. And so we're just really part of that expansion of the campus in this area. But the road, as I come in every day to work, I get basically the shot of the Capitol that you see in all the movies, which is very surreal. But really the benefit and the reason we're here is exactly the things you said. Federal agencies, NGOs, think tanks, global organizations. We've got an adjunct professor that comes in from Brookings and it's an easy commute. We've got someone that comes in from New York to teach, that's a specialist that comes in on the train and walks two blocks to get to our 111 Massachusetts Avenue location. Our students right now are doing a capstone research project with the Department of Energy and Environment. And every week they walk to their building or the folks at DOEE come and walk to our building and we host. So there's just the ability to have those meetings and interact in a way that's so convenient and so great to be downtown. It also means our students as well as our faculty can come in with public transportation, can get here easily. It's really a great location from that standpoint. So our guest speakers, at one point, I actually was talking to a book author about, you know, maybe coming in on Zoom, and she goes, I can hop the train. It's easy. So just the idea that they're offering to come to us is a benefit that we just haven't always had in the past and we really value it and we see what the bet like what it means. It also means our students can do internships and do networking events like the Green Drinks. There are a couple social, social groups here in D.C. that are all about sustainability, where students can network while they're getting their degree as well as do their internships and part time jobs.
• 16:52
  Speaker A: Yeah, all that makes a ton of sense. And yeah, you're reminding me you guys are a stone's throw from the train station, not far from the Reagan International Airport, et cetera. So there's an easy access for everyone. Cecilia, I want to talk about something that stood out to me in the program when I was reading about it, and that is there seems to be an emphasis on hands on learning. And there's this capstone consulting project that's done and I wondered if you could just share like an example of a project or a practical experience that was particularly meaningful to you as you journeyed through this degree.
• 17:25
  Speaker C: Yeah, great question. I really liked the capstone experience. It lets you dive into something deeper. I think with, you know, undergraduate and master's degree, a lot of your group work is very focused on deliverables and it's sort of just like putting out all this work that you're, you know, obviously you're focused and you're trying your hardest. But it's interesting to be a part of a real consulting project and really see the challenges that come up. Working with a real team and a client and sort of experiencing some of that pushback and figuring out how to tackle team and come up with a solution that works both for you and for the client, I think was a great experience. Especially, you know, working in my role with government contractors. Everything seems to work slow and it's interesting to see how that happens in real time because in the academic world you don't really get to experience that. You're just really focused on due dates. So I think it was really interesting to get some of that pushback from clients and also talk about it with other people from the cohort as well. Like what were they learning from their capstones? What were some of the challenges that they were facing? And we would all sort of come together and like debrief honestly about these capstone projects because they were a task at times and it was interesting to hear what everyone's perspectives was on the project.
• 18:52
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's, you know, that type of experiential learning is so valuable and it hadn't occurred to me that you guys are, that you guys are also sharing like, oh, this is what we're doing on mine. So you're getting the benefit of your capstone, but you're also hearing about other students and what they were doing, which makes sense because you have this nice close knit cohort. Kara, I want to ask you, this is kind of related because Cecilia is talking about doing some hands on work with an actual business or ngo, et cetera. Let's talk a little bit about careers. What are the graduates of the ESM program going to do typically after graduation and what kinds of roles are they stepping into?
• 19:32
  Speaker B: So the roles that the students are stepping into are incredibly varied. And they've got a variety of sectors, industries, even functional areas. We have students that are going into consulting firms, nonprofits, renewable energy, financial services, as well as federal, state and local governments. There are a lot of environmental services as well. We've got students that are working at wwf, the Big four, of course, IBM, doee, the association of Zoos and Aquariums, Elevated Foods. So it's everything from really Large companies that you'll hear the name of to companies that are making an impact in more specified ways. What's really interesting also is the job titles vary just as much. We've got regenerative agricultural specialists, SPC supply chain analysts. We've got green Building program analysts. We've got an ESG associate, a senior investor that's working at Calvert. These positions vary widely. And part of that is while the program and the cohort, the students go through the courses together, they take the courses together, but we do leave flexibility for their areas of interest as they're working on them. Same thing with the capstones that Cecilia were mentioning. We have capstones that are working very much with, like telemetry in a shipping company in Greece right now to how they can basically save fuel in their model. And we've got students that have done Series A funding demand analysis and helped put together the first Series A pitch for a startup H Vac company that was using sequestered CO2 as their natural coolant. They got their Series A funding literally while the capstone project was going on. And while you have those wide variety of things, we also have a group that is working with l' Oreal this year. We had another group work on l' Oreal last year. Last year was marketing badging. This year is much more trying to address the SB54 mandates that are coming out of California. So the projects vary, and we do that on purpose so that our students, whether they are trying to build their experience because they're earlier in their career, or they're trying to do a career pivot, they're set up for success to be able to do what they need to do. It's also one of the reasons that our careers, I would say, are so wide and varied, because, frankly, every industry needs some help to really hit the strategy of sustainability and needs that science and business acumen to be able to do it well.
• 21:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, well said. Because I think, you know, that was the thing as you were going down these lists of different types of jobs and companies. I'm thinking about how the truth is that sustainability sort of permeates everything now, whether you're an investor or working on packaging or organic products. I mean, there's so many areas where this comes into play. Cecilia, I want to turn to you now and just ask you a question about your career path and the support that you had during the SM program. So whether that was, you know, internships, capstone networking, or career coaching, just tell me a little bit about how the programs prepared you for your career?
• 22:16
  Speaker C: Yeah, great question, Graham. I really sought out this program because of how they prepare you to enter, you know, the workforce. Coming out of undergrad, I felt underprepared to take on, you know, like the role I have now, a consulting role. I think MSESF did a great job in preparing you. For example, first, we had a dedicated career person for our program. So any resume help, interview questions, or any job search questions, we could go to her and ask her like, hey, I'm interested in this industry. What kind of job could I apply to? What kind of corporations, businesses, organizations should I be looking into? Could you help me tailor my resume to this job description, things like that. So it was very hands on in that way. Secondly, we would have a lot of networking events either within MSESM or as a part of the McDonough School of Business. So any career fairs, stuff like that we could be a part of and go network with alumni that work at, at Big Four or other organizations. Additionally, we could use the McDonough School of Business, like Career Center. So again, if we wanted more interview prep or resume help, we could contact the current MBA program students and actually sit down with them and sort of do like a mock interview or just get more peer coaching, one on one help. And as well, we also had a summer career prep course from MSESM where we took online classes to sort of get our resumes ready, get ourselves, you know, get started on thinking, where do we want to work? What industry do we want to get into and just really start, you know, popping those questions around our heads and start talking about it. We also had a good number of guests speakers come into our program that I think opened our eyes to a lot of niche industries as well. For example, Scott Breen came in, he talked about can manufacturing and recycling, and it was really interesting, you know, to hear about his career trajectory as well. He was a Georgetown alum as well. Not in this program because it wasn't, you know, running yet. Not to call him out on his age, but. But we had very interesting guest speakers and they would be very willing to, you know, take our emails and connect us with whoever they could connect us with and just keep networking through them. And I actually found my podcast opportunity through Scott Breen, one of the guest speakers who he came to speak to our class and he was like, I need someone to take over this podcast. People started applying and I got my job through one of the guests guest speakers. So that was pretty cool. So overall, I think the MSCSM program did a really good job in prepping us to enter the workforce. And I think something that they did a really good job in was just helping us figure out what industry to get into because carry management sustainability is, you know, across every single industry. So to find your niche is something that I think is very challenging and something that the MSCSM program does very well. In the different amount of classes the professors that we have, we can talk to so many people about so many different things. And so I really like that about the program.
• 25:47
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I think you're making an interesting point, which is that it sounds like you had access, as you say, to the McDonough School of Businesses kind of career center, which, you know, obviously a lot of robust offerings there, but also some more personalized coaching within the program to get your resume up to speed and all that stuff. So, I mean, clearly you've, you know, you landed a nice, a nice role post program. So that's the good news here. Kerry, I do want to turn back to you and ask, you know, people tuning in are probably now very curious about this program, and I'm just wondering if you have any advice or thoughts about, like, sort of what kind of candidate tends to thrive in this program and are there particular backgrounds or mindsets that you look for? I mean, I know you said that, and Cecilia's commented on this too, that it's a really diverse program. There's so many different types of people coming in. But is there anything that you look for when someone's kind of considering this program?
• 26:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question. We do a lot to want our cohort to be heterogeneous so that they learn from one another, that the person that has experience in Greece, we've got a Fulbright student right now from Greece, and she adds to the conversation along with learning with everyone else. You know, in the past, we've had students from all over the world and they bring their country knowledge, their regional issues and challenges, and they get to share that in the classroom. Our professors, too, come from a wide range of areas. And I think one of the things when you're looking at people thinking about the program, thinking if they'll be a fit, if they want to make an impact, that's probably the only thing that's homogenous about our cohort is that they are passionate about wanting to make an impact. And then past that, we work with them for their strengths, their weaknesses. They'll often hear me say, if you're not uncomfortable at some point in the program, we've fallen down on the job because we should be stretching you. This should be a challenge to do. At the same time, you're set up for success, you're not in it by yourself. I think a lot of those individual courses, you can say, oh, am I the only one not getting it in a cohort model, you can be like, oh, I'm struggling, but there are other people struggling, too. We're going to struggle together and figure this out, and you get more of this. Us attack the problem rather than be overwhelmed by it. So when we're looking for students, it's really that idea that we certainly are going to have a bunch of quantitative information. So they're going to have to be willing and want to do some quant work, but they're also going to need and want to be able to do strategy, thoughtfulness. How do you make an impact? How do you lead? How do you communicate in a way that other people catch up to where you are? And so as we look at all the different things that we're focusing on from that, we want people who want to take the time to explore their area and their area of passion. So Cecilia mentioned our career center, which has been absolutely wonderful. We also have a dedicated person just for the ESM program to work with our students specifically for sustainability, to make sure that they get where they need and where they want to go. And so while it's definitely the student's journey, we want to make sure they're set up for success as they do that. One of the things that. That we often challenge, or I'll say at the beginning, is keep reading the news, look at a bunch of news that talks about sustainability, and start tracking where you're looking at the title versus when you read the whole article. And I often say, when you start reading the whole article, that's an indicator of maybe where you want to work in the industry, rather than just what you find interesting. A lot of our students come in and say, everything's interesting. What do I do? How do I narrow this down? And that's one of the challenges we'll say, is unless you've got that clear vision already, let's help you find that clear vision so we can get you set up for success.
• 29:16
  Speaker A: Yeah, great points, Cecilia. I want to turn back to you and just ask you kind of a broad question, but, you know, imagine someone's tuned into this episode and they're thinking about applying to the program, or even more broadly, they're thinking about a career in sustainability. What advice would you have for someone who's so. So Imagine yourself several years back. You know, what advice would you. Would you give?
• 29:39
  Speaker C: Great question. You know, I heard this piece of advice from a guest on my podcast, and it stuck with me ever since I heard her say it. I honestly can't remember who said it. I've interviewed so many people, but I wish I remembered. She. I asked her what was her best piece of advice for, you know, young professionals coming into this space. And she said to be courageous, brave, and impatient. And I loved it. Sustainability is something that you, you know, you can never be patient, but you also have to be patient at the same time. Change is uncomfortable, like Kerry said, and it takes time. I think sustainability, you know, professionals are all brave. They're all working in this very dynamic field where anything can change at any point. You know, it's a wicked problem. It's very interdisciplinary. You have to be creative, focus, focused, impatient and brave to demand change and demand people to, you know, believe in what you're saying. Basically, you have to convince people. You have to be persuasive, but you also have to be patient, and you have to be understanding, and you just really have to be patient, but at the same time, impatient.
• 30:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, it is. I hear you. I mean, I understand it's a challenging field in the sense that, like you said, it's interdisciplinary. Things change with administrations coming and going and policy. I mean, there's just so many kind of balls in the air. I want to turn back to Carrie to kind of close things out here. I wanted to ask you what excites you most about the future of this space and in particular, the role that programs like ESM can play in shaping the next generation of leaders.
• 31:22
  Speaker B: You know, when you first asked that question, what excites me, I was going to say the students. There is nothing more fun than getting a passionate group of students who want to problem solve and then just start talking about how can we get into the wicked problem? How can we address all the different things that are causing a challenge and start taking it apart and using the expertise that comes with each cohort? And now with our alumni base, I think that's a big piece of it. You know, there are great MBA programs out there, and one of the things we love about the ESM is it has that business focus. But even our accounting courses talk about the impact, the rules with a lens on sustainability, the finance, same kind of thing. Our responsible investing course is all about investing, and you get all the things you would expect in that course, but you also get it through the lens of long term benefit. Stability that comes with investing in companies and organizations that are doing it well, you don't get the scandals you don't get right now. Oil price, they pop up, they pop down. You start understanding that there's value there to be made, but it's also highly volatile. So to be able to have those kinds of conversations, it makes me really excited to know that these groups of students are going out and becoming alumni that are problem solving. There's a lot of new tech. There's a lot of people. And one of the beauties of this is the research has shown even when the government is not putting money into projects that had been planned or renewable energy projects, they're going ahead anyway. They're going ahead because wind is cheaper than coal. It's cheaper to manufacture energy from wind. And so it's just a good business decision, which means it's good financial hygiene. And so when you know that and you can understand that and you can build from that model, you get people that really have the ability to make a powerful impact.
• 33:08
  Speaker A: Yeah. Well said. Yeah. It's just been so fascinating to hear all about this, and I would think, think that it's got to be very inspiring to see these students come into the program and obviously now with folks like Cecilia out there in the world to see what they've gone on to do. So I appreciate both of you making time to shed light on this program Again, for those listening, this is the Master of Science in Environment and Sustainability Management that's offered at Georgetown. It's this really fascinating joint program. I encourage everyone to learn more about it, but Carrie and Cecilia, thank you so much for making time today. It's been a real pleasure talking with you both.
• 33:44
  Speaker C: Thank you, Graham.
• 33:46
  Speaker B: Thank you for having us, Graham. This has been a lot of fun.
• 33:48
  Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks again, everyone. Stay tuned for more episodes, and please remember to rate and review the show wherever you listen.
• 34:05
  Speaker B: Sa.