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How JPMorgan Became Such a Force in Active ETFs · Trillions

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Welko our Jollins.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric Balchutas.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: We got a big deal in the podcast today. I'm
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: excited about this one.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: We needed to counterweight. The last two were a little
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: off the cuff and we needed something heavier and deeper.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: We needed a heavyweight. We did. So we're going to
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: be joined by George Gatch, who's the CEO of JP
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Morgan Asset Management. I'm excited about this one in part
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: because JP Morgan has become such a big force in
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: the ETF industry relatively quickly.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and active in general. People don't realize that when
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: you look at all the active mutual funds and ETFs
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: and you add it all together. JP Morgan is now
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: fourth after Capital Group, Fidelity and Vanguard, and they've come
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: up from like eighth in only a couple of years,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: passing Pimpco DFA T. I mean these are heavyweight firms.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: People may not know that. I think they think of
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: JP Morgan, they think of bank more so than asset management.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: But that is some powerhouse surge there, and they have
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  Speaker 2: taken in about four times more in inflows than any
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: other active shop. So they are on fire when it
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: comes to active and it really was embracing the ETF.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: The ETF is the majority of those flows, although their
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: mutual funds are actually treading water, which is which helps
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: because they don't have to offset any outflows in the
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: mutual funds. Really, and the ETFs have been a big hit.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: They've got a couple. They've got the biggest stock active
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: ETF and the biggest bond active ETF in the world.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Who knew muscle, that's what we call that. So joining
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: us in this episode George Gatch of JP Morgan's asset management,
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: this time on Trillions, the new heavyweight. George, Welcome to Trillions.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, gentlemen. Great to be here.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, So when people think of JP Morgan, I think
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: most of the time they think of Jamie Diamond and
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: the bank. Can you just describe how, how and where
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: the asset management part came from and how you've become
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: such a dominant force so quickly.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I think Jamie would refer to us as
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: the hidden gem within JP Morgan. We've been managing money
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  Speaker 3: for a long long time, well over a century in fact,
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  Speaker 3: if you replay the tapes a little bit in the
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: seventies during the trust banks JP Morgan Morgan guarantee trust
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: with the largest asset manager in the world. So we're
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: on a mission to regain that position as being the
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: best asset manager. We have eighty five hundred employees that
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: do only one thing, manage other people's money. One of
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: the largest commitments to research, fundamental research, and we differentiate
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: our size by being exclusively focused on active management. And
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: I think as we talk about our success in ets
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: and more broadly and active, I think that's a key,
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: key different trading point for us.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: And when did that ETF light bulb first go off
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: for you?
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: Well, you would have to have been blind to have
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: not seen that ETFs were something that there was significant
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: amount of demand in the industry. And so about ten
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: years ago we said, we think this is a really
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: important innovation and benefit for investors. It was at that
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: time pretty much exclusive to passive but we thought we
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: needed to develop expertise and capabilities, and so we launched
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: our first ETFs, which were factor tilts essentially. So we're
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: trying to bring some degree of differentiation to the market
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: and we've been on a journey. One of the the
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: important differentiats I said before, is our focus on active is.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: We had a debate within JP Morgan Asset Management about
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: should we try to be a scale passet manager. And
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: when I became CEO six years ago, I really made
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: the decision that we're going to focus on our straints
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: and put all of our resources in into active and
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: that was represented in the investments we made in our
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: ETF lineup. We do have some passive capabilities, but those
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: are really building blocks for our active multi asset strategies,
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: target date funds, and other things that we offer.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: So when you showed up six years ago and already
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Vanguard black Rock had the passive game like down, was
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: it more of like there's an opportunity and active that
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: those two have conceded and that's how we're going to
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: show up. Or was it like we'll get to the
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: passive stuff later, but we need something like a hallmark
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  Speaker 1: product to really distinguish ourselves.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it's amazing we saw, which is this massive
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  Speaker 3: title wave of investors moving from active to passive and
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: you can see that and flows in mutual funds, and
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  Speaker 3: that's also represented in the intellectual capital that many asset
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: managers they focus their resourcing, their research on tracking markets,
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  Speaker 3: and they did a good job of it, and it
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  Speaker 3: was highly a feeling to investors. I saw that as
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  Speaker 3: an opportunity where we could help exploit the ability to
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  Speaker 3: outperform markets because there was simply less focus on it
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  Speaker 3: from most of our competitors. I also think there's this
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: kind of cultural underpinning that's very powerful. To have eighty
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  Speaker 3: five hundred people that are all believe in the ability
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  Speaker 3: if you have sustainable sources of information, of an information
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  Speaker 3: advantage of the ability to outperform outperform markets. And that's
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  Speaker 3: important for our sales teams, it's important for our product development, operations,
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  Speaker 3: fund accounting, etc. Everyone believes that we have an advantage
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  Speaker 3: and we can exploit that to help people outperform markets.
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  Speaker 2: So I've been watching you for years. I saw you
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  Speaker 2: guys come in and I saw the passive first sort
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: of the beta knockoffs. They did okay, there was some
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: BYO money, but then JEPPI to me, really changed everything
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: in gp JPST. That's the bond in the stock when
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: they're the biggest. What I've found interesting and what I
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: think this is my theory on why it has worked
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: so well because you came in and really made an
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  Speaker 2: impact on something that people were kind of writing off
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  Speaker 2: a little bit. Most of these big asset managers, they
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: were like, hey, let's come out with like free index
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: funds like Fidelity, just to offset the active outflows. So
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: we look like we're you know, in business still versus
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: just bleeding out slowly. But you guys are like, no,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: we can make active work. One thing you did that
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  Speaker 2: I think takes guts though, is the expense ratios. To me,
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: they are they feel fair. You know. A lot of
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  Speaker 2: the problem with the active management is it's like ninety
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: basis points. It's largely S and P five hundred stocks.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: They came in jep's thirty five BIPs. That's the same
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: as the R six class of your mutual fund, which
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: is the cheapest class. So in essence, they're giving the
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: ETF investors sort of the cheaper share class of the
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: mutual fund. Not only that, you get fundamental stock picking.
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  Speaker 2: There's an options overlay, so there's a lot of legwork involved.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: And it's JP Morgan. So I'm thinking of an advisor always.
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  Speaker 2: I'm always in their brain going does this seem like
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: a good deal. It's like they can go to their
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: client now and say, look, I'm going to get you
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: JP Morgan. That'll that's really cool. That's lucky you have that.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: A lot of firms don't. I'm going to get you
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: in options overlay. And it's just like it's going to
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: take the ball down a little bit, YadA YadA. It
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: feels fair at thirty five BIPs, and I think that's
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: part of the magic.
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  Speaker 3: Would you agree, Yeah, no, absolutely, you know, and I
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: think we all know, and we've looked at other industries
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: and other firms. If you don't evolve and adjust your
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: business model to the changing needs of investors financial advisors,
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: your business will with her. And so you know, we
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: made decisions to build products we think that, from both
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: a pricing and an investment standpoint, have a highly differentiated
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: offer relative to others. Now, we didn't apply the strategy
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: of a covered call options only in an ETF. We
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: actually did it first in a mutual fund. So what
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  Speaker 3: we're doing is bringing our best ideas that we have
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: in mutual funds, separately managed accounts, what we've run for institutions,
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  Speaker 3: and then putting them in an ETF and then going
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: through a process of how do we price that relative
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: to the value that we're adding to investors. And the
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: great thing about ETFs is there's very few little friction
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: relative to revenue share or transfer agency costs or other things,
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  Speaker 3: so it allows us to do it at a price
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  Speaker 3: point where then financial advisors can make the decisions to
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: add fees for the services they're providing. And so what
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  Speaker 3: this has really done is seeing the disconnecting between manufacturing
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: and the costs associated with manufacturing versus services related to
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: advice and financial planning and other components of high value
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: added things that advisors do themselves. And I think that's
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: one of the reasons that ETFs has grown so rapidly,
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: both in passive and active, which is you see this
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: movement towards fee based programs and away from transactional revenue
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  Speaker 3: sharing and other things that's good for investors, and so
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: we're playing to that theme and the way that we
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: price in service products.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: I will say, you make that sound easy, but over
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  Speaker 2: the years, I think the fun companies that are just
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: fun companies, it is tougher for them. I see them
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: sometimes try to make the ETF industry come to their
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: on their terms and it doesn't work. You kind of
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: have to meet the ETF industry on its terms, and
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  Speaker 2: I thought JPM was.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Like Judo a little bit, like we're going to use
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: the energy and like redirect it a little bit rather
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: than take it head on. If you like that, I've
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: brought Olympic sports in here.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: I like metaphors. I don't know about that one, but
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  Speaker 2: it's it's hopefully everybody listening understands. That flew over my
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: head a little bit. But the idea of having a
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  Speaker 2: bank where asset management is a portion of the revenue,
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  Speaker 2: and obviously Jamie Diamond has all these other groups making money.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of things to work on and so
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  Speaker 2: it's not like the whole thing depends on this one
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  Speaker 2: mutual fund revenue stream. So you can make that ETF
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  Speaker 2: leap a little easier because it does involve us a
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: little bit of self cannibalization. Although if you get enough assets,
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: you win in the end. But it's been tough for
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: the traditional nineties er mutual fund company to do that
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: because this is all they have. And I don't know,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: do you feel like that that you work in this
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: gigantic diversified bank type company. Does it give you a
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: little more freedom or is that more just the Jamie
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Diamond management thing to just let you do what you
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: need to do, because I don't feel like others are
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  Speaker 2: given the keys so much as you guys were in
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: terms of pricing it and being able to sort of
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: maybe go a little cheaper than you probably would like to.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: The way I think about it is the asset management
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  Speaker 3: business is to serve investor, and we are measured to
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: compete with the best asset managers in the world. That's
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: the way the board and that's the way Jamie judges
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: us with us, and we have the ability because it
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: is a fiduciary business is a very important point, and
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: we're hemetically sealed because of the conflicts that exists between
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: the bank and the asset management. We can't trade in
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: our ETFs with JP Morgan Chasing Company, but we have
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: the ability to reach out and pull in the expertise
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: and skills that are maybe difficult for other monoline asset
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: management firms to get. Cyber technology, artificial intelligence that bank
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: has since seventeen billion dollars a year on technology. We
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: have the ability to pull in generative AI expertise to
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: help apply that to managing managing money. So I would
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: describe this as the best of both worlds. The other
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: thing I would point out, which I think is important
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: for us, is they're kind of two I think two
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: ways that asset managers approcess. One is around marketing what's
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: best to sell, and then you have others who are
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: deep fiduciary managers where they lead from the investment standpoint,
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: how do you generate returns for clients and a risk
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: adjusted away. Some lean too much in one way, therefore
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: haven't been able to adapt their product offering rap enough.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: Others lead the other way, and they end up producing
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: products that don't aren't in the interest long term investing
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: interest of investors. What I think we have been able
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: to do is balance that decision making between a very
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: strong investment led fraduciary culture and a very strong focus
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: on investor needs and demands and adapting our product line
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: and capability more rapidly, maybe than some of our competitors have.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: We talk about a lot how the ETF is a
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: terror dome, the ETF industry is a terrordome, and that
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: you know it's taxing, especially for all the juggernauts that
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: have to compete with one another. What's it feel like
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: to walk into the Terrordome every day and have to compete.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: Oh, it's great. I mean this is this is one
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: of the most exciting areas of the industry. I mean
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: the level of innovation. You pointed out the competition, and
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: it is invigorating for our teams and my people. And
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: I think that's one of the things because ETFs are
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: maybe they've been around for a long time, but they're
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: quite fresh as it relates to, you know, the active
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: asset management space, and I think it's it's it's bad,
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: you know, a degree of optimism and focus on the future,
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: and the competition is awesome. You think about, like what
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: the competition of the asset management space is meant for
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: the quality of what investors get today, and the innovations
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: that we've seen in mutual funds and separately managed tax
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: optimization and all of that I think is calling in
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: a seismic shift that's happening where ETFs will likely be
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: the most important product and vehicle for individual investors and
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: maybe institutions for the next decade. So I think it's
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: incredibly exciting.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do it you like to compete against you?
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: I feel sorry for them.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Actually, that's a good segue. I have a good example
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: of what I think of one of the We always
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: look for these interesting matchups inside different categories. And you
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: know I titled this Vanguard versus JP Morgan grabbed the popcorn.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: So JP Morgan popcorn for that.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is really interesting to me. JP
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Morgan launched a high yield active bond e tf JPHY.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: It's seeded with two billion, which is unheard of.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Pretty good start.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: That's a good start. You're already the biggest one. Nice
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: just like that's like born on home plate right there. Now.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: A couple of weeks later, Vanguard filed for an active
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: junk bond ETF and everybody had been writing them off
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: because people had thought they would file for a drunk
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: bond ETF at some point. Everybody wanted them to because
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: they have a mutual fund, and they never did. And
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: I think you got them to launch, in my opinion,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: because they see the numbers. Vanguard is nineteenth in active
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: ETF and they're not nineteenth in anything. That probably pisses
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: them off. And they see you come in, you're cleaning up,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: you're running circles around them, and you're bab basically biting
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: at their heels right now in third place of overall active,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: so that I really I can't ever say I've seen
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Vanguard look a little nervous, but this looks like that.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: Because Vanguard is a great firm and obviously huge innovator
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: in ETF space. The way I think about it, three
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: trillion dollars in fixed income ETFs globally, five percent of
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: that is indexed passive. This is a space where the
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: average manager outperforms the market. So I think investors have
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: loved the ETF package and therefore have gone down that
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: path of allocating to fixed income, and now that their
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: world class capabilities active capabilities in ETFs, I think we're
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: going to see a massive shift. And what we did
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: was we went to one of our largest clients, one
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: of the most sophisticated asset owners in the world, and
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: asked them whether they wanted to participate in us launching
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: a high yield ETF. And that shows the strengths of
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: our traditional institutional business and relationship. On day one, the
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: ETF had four hundred and fifty positions source from our
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: credit and portfolio management capabilities. So as an investor, if
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: you can into our fund on its first day, you
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: would have be fully diversified UH in the in the
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: sectors and securities that we think are our most attractive.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: It's a great thing. I never thought I would see
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: the day where we were able to launch a e
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: t F and have it be the largest et F
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: in the category on day on day one. It's a
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: great position to be in.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about JEPY because we mentioned earlier
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: JP Morgan Equity Premium income ETF that has just crushed it.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: And can you dissect why JEFPY has been such a success.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: And also were there any other names that you considered
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: for the ticker?
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: We're always wondering about the best, the best, the best tickers.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think this is you know, as I
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: said before, this is not a strategy that was first
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: in the ets. It came to our mutual fund lineup first,
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: UH and and it all fors the investors the opportunity
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: to get their toe in the water, get allocation to
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: the upside potential of equities, but at the same time
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: generate very attractive income and have some less volatility and delivers.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: So I think it's an idea that has applications to
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: every asset class. I think it's a core position over
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: the over the long term, as we see volatility spike,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: you're likely to see greater demand for these types of products.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: In markets like today, where you have UH momentum in
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: stock prices, it's likely to be something that's not the
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: first the first choice, but over time in a market cycle.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: I think these strategies and we've obviously replicated it not
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: just an S and P five hundred which JEFP. We've
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: done it in Nasdaq stocks with j E p Q.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: We've also applied a similar strategy to our hedged equity.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: We have one for US strategy and we also have
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: one for an international strategy called OLAH. So I think
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: these types of products that give you equity exposures either
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: downside protection or high levels of income will continue to
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: be quite attractive. We launched them around the world Canada
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: our product range and USETS in Europe. We were the
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: first to list a active ETF strategy in Hong Kong
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: two weeks ago, which is actually a replica of jeffs.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: So this is an error where we're seeing demand globally
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: around the world to these types of strategies.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: If you look at Europe, I was just in Europe
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago, and Henry showed me the
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: active ETFs there. JP Morgan is like in a league
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: of their own, so like here there obviously right up
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: there there's a couple good active ETF managers, although some
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: of them take money from the mutual funds, so they
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: offset when you look at the boat. That's why when
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: I looked at your numbers in terms of mutual fund
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: plus ETF, it was very impressive because your mutual funds
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: were able to at least eke out a little bit
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: of flows, which is not the norm. JEPQ, which is
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: the one you mentioned. It's jetp's little brother, except it's
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: a little more feisty because the cues have more volatility.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: So it seems like to me that jepq's double any
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: other of your ETFs and flows this year. So it's
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: kind of like it hasn't surpassed JETPI in assets, but
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: it's it's getting, you know, it's taking in more money.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I think the idea here is if you write call
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: options on the cues, what you do is you give
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: up extreme upside, but what you get in return is
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: some income. So it yields eleven percent that income can
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: actually buffer the downside a little, so in essence, it's
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: like diet cues in a way, and that to me
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: is a strong selling point that is somewhat performance proof
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: because if you have a year where you underperform the cues,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: the value proposition is still there because a lot of
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: older investors are like, I'm happy to give up a
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: little upside. I really I've made a lot of money
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: and that deal they strike with an issuer like jep
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Q or JETPY, it's a brilliant concept because it doesn't
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: totally rely on performance year to year like say other ETFs.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: Do I have that right? Yeah? Absolutely. I think this
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: is why these strategies are so durable because I think
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: the demand for these types of products of high income,
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: exposure to equity markets, and less volatility. I think that's
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: a theme that we're going to see to continue continue
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: to play out. Now. It is the number one selling
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: product that we have year to date, and I think
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: there is an important point relative to kind of our
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: strategy around this. If you look at we got into
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: the business and saw strong flows through these derivative income
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: strategies JETP and jep Q, and through our short duration
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: fixed income JPST, which is the largest fixed income ETF
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: in the business. But over the last two years, more
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: than half of our total flows have been in other products.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: And I think that's what I see. I'm so encouraged
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: about the strength of active fixed income, which I mentioned
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: mentioned before, our JPI, which is an income fixed income ETF,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: our Core Plus strategy, which is our best selling fixed
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: income capabilities. I think that's what you're going to see
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: happen in the in the industry is we're going to
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: see more and more flows expanding into other into other
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: areas as more investment capabilities become available.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: And you also you oversee everything, right, So you've got
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: mutual funds ETF And I read a little bit about
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: your push into alternatives. What does that mean? What for you?
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: What is the push and alternatives? Black Rock says the
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: same thing. I think some people like, what does that mean?
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: And what kind of products door we expect?
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: And does it mean crypto?
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Don't worry, I'll get there.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: So sixty forty diversified investing all alternatives to a diversified
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: portfolio and new increase return and reduce risks not a
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: new novel idea. It's been around for a long long time.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: We've provided those tools for our big institutional clients for
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: a long long time, and we've got leading capabilities in
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: real estate, infrastructure, hedge, fund of funds, private equity, et cetera.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: And I think there's two parts of this. One is
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: we believe in building stuff internally, so we have a
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: number of investment strategies that we've seated growth, private equity,
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: and number of things that you know, over time will
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: become important options for our clients. So that's part of
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: it expanding the universe of offerings that we have for clients.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: So you said private equity, and I think did you
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: launch an interval fund that has private equity credit or both?
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: Yes, we have. We have two strategies today that are
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: private wealth alternatives. One is called JPMF which is a
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: private equity strategy private equity secondaries, co invest and fund
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: of fund And we also have a jpm RET which
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: is a ten tender offer strategy, and both of those
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: are designed for individual investors, have lower minimums, W two,
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: tax reporting, etc.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: But the interval means you can only get your money
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: out quarterly, something like that or is.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: This something It depends on the strategy and the fund.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: But yes, there tend to be limits on redemption. These
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: are these are ill liquid strategies, so it's very important
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: relative to you know, education and disclosures to clients.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: It's interesting you picked the Interval fund. You're not alone.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: I think Blackstone picked one. Vanguard is looking into it.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: But there is a small shop or two in State
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Street that try is trying to put privates into ETFs.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: I do think ETFs are the pervert vehicle that to me,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: they are like digital music, and Interval fund feels like
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: putting it into a CD. You probably could get it
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: done and listen to the music that way, but it's
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: not as convenient. On the flip side, privates are ill liquid,
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: so you know people hesitate to put them. But what
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: do you think of this move to try to get
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: privates into ETFs and even further to democratize them fully.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: There's some talk of like, well, this is the private
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: companies just trying to unload this stuff on retail because
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: they had a nice run and the naves that they
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: price all the private sets sometimes aren't quite reflective of
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: reality versus when you put something in an ETF, you
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: got to price it every day. I don't know. What
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: do you think of all that. It seems like something
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: that's on the cusp of like really breaking through to
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: the retail world.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Eric, I think it's I think that's a great question.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: Interval products, and there's a range of capabilities that now
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: can be delivered in structures designed for ill liquid securities,
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: and that's where our focuses is building out these capabilities
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: of private equity, private credit, infrastructure, et cetera, to make
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: them available to individual investors to complement sixty sixty forty ets,
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: like public mutual funds are priced daily. ILL liquid securities
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: have been used in public mutual funds and in ets,
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: but below the fifteen percent liquidity ILL liquid bucket. And
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: I think the principle should be if a product is
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: priced on a daily basis, that there should be limits
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: to the amount of securities and the strategy around valuations.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: So I think we should be very cautious about how
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: we integrate private securities into ETF structures. There are other
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: vehicles where it makes more sense. The disclosure is better. Now.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying there aren't opportunities to include I liquid
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: securities in ets. We have to be very mindful of
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: the issues that you raise.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: How much demand is there from on the consumer side
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: for products that you know, I have this that liquid stuff.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: But are you know, effectively ANTF. Do you see the
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: demand there?
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: No, not necessarily. I mean I say demands for the
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: ETF structures which are suitable for you know, daily valued securities.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: So I'm not saying we see a you know, significant amount.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: Now we do see demand for private alternatives to individual
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: investors significant significant demand.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Question though, is the demand because these private equity vehicles
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: seem to have less volatility and can be a true alternative.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: But then you know, there is some criticism that, well,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: the reason they're alternatives or have lower volatility is because
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: they don't have to like live in reality of a
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: true market. For example, SpaceX probably has a similar profile
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: to Tesla, but you wouldn't know it from the navs.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: And I think this is one of the critiques of
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: private equity is that largely they're to move like public
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: equities if you put them in the you know, reality.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: And I believe there was even a story on Bloomberg
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: about like JP Morgan trying to trade some of these
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: and these private shops. It just seems like they're a
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: little hesitant to actually let this stuff into the reality
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: of a real market, because it's like it would like,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: remove the veil, what's the emperor's new clothes, what's the
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: The emperor has no clothes. The emperor has no low volatility. Sorry,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: that's almost as bad as your Judo metaphor. But you
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: know what I'm saying. Am I wrong there? Or do
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: you think there's some of that fear of like? And
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: so does retail? Do they understand that or is it
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: just a matter of like less companies go public. Hey,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I want a piece of the action of these companies,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: but you know that aren't going public.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: I mean these these securities trade on appointment, and I
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: think you have to be not not not not every
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: minute of the day, and so I think you know
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: that needs to be taken into consideration. But there's some
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: realities here, right which is a decade ago, there were
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: eight thousand public companies. Today they're four thousand. There are
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: multiples of that in terms of private companies that offer
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: return opportunities to clients, and the same is true in
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: the fixed income markets. There is a large, growing market
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: of private securities that offer return opportunities for individual investors.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: The question is packaging that in the right way. If
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: investors have long time arisons, they shouldn't be concerned about
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: what the pricing is on any individual moment. And I
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: think that's the opportunity with some of these vehicles that
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: offer exposure to these markets but are also disclosed that
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: you're not going to get your money every day. Ets
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: you're going to get your money every day. Valuation is
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: incredibly important, and that needs to be the premise around
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: the types of securities that you include in these portfolios.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: And I do agree. I think the people are salivating
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: over the opportunity in the ETF market and the individual market,
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: and they want access to it. But we have to
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: be thoughtful about it. And I think that that's the
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: perspective that we bring.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Speaking a thoughtful when I've been running these numbers on
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: ibit and ETHA that's the black Rock, Bitcoin and Ether ETF.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: When I run like fastest to twenty billion, and I
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: look at all the ETFs that have got to twenty
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: billion quickly or fastest to ten billion, I bit blowing
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: everybody away.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: But guess who.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Guess who's record they're breaking. It's either IMG which was
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: a fast end jetpy. So here comes ibit getting to
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: ten billion, twenty billion, thirty billion, four or five six
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: times faster than Jeppy, which was in some cases the
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: fastest to that number. You see that, What do you
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: think is there any any bit of like jealousy, like hey,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: we should get a piece of that action or I
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: don't know. I'm just curious as the numbers grow and
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: become more astonishing, and a firm like JP Morgan, which
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: is traditionally it's not what you do, and if that's
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: your roadmap, it wouldn't make sense. But on the flip side,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: more companies are doing it, and it's growing and growing,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: and you may hear clients asking for just curious, how
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: you you know, wrestle with all that.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, listen, I think we have a guiding principle around
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: what types of ETFs we will launch, and we're going
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: to launch ETFs that we believe are durable and have
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: a strategy for how to incorporate into a long term
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: investment strategy. Now, I know that may sound kind of boring,
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: but boring can be quite successful investment investment strategy. So
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: that may mean that we move, we lose some trendy
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: fatty ideas, but we're going to you know, we're going
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: to stick to our guns. I think that cryptocurrencies are
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: quite a speculative investment, investment in quotation, and it has
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: significantly higher volatility in the S and P five hundred,
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: no income, no intrinsic value. We don't know how to
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: incorporate it into an investment. I'm not saying it's a
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: bad thing. I'm just saying we we don't see a way.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: That we have summer analysts who come in and one
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: of the projects we always give them is give us
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: an investment thesis around crypto bitcoin. Uh, And they come
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: back and say, we can't tell you how to value
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: a bitcoin. And so that's that's the premise around our
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: investment capabilities. And listen, there are lots of ideas that
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: people are launching water ETFs, animal spirit ETF. So that
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: doesn't mean they're good ideas, and we're going to We're
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: going to stick to those things that we think makes
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: sense for for investors. And that's the discipline we bring
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: to our product development efforts.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: If you could pick up one thing in the ETF
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: marketplace and bolt it to your strategy, what would you
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: like to.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: Acquire what would I like to acquire?
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what ETF out there would you most like to
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: bring into your stable?
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: Listen. I think acquiring things as an asset manager is
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: credibly difficult to do successfully. We run almost four trillion
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: dollars of assets, we have over five hundred strategies. There
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: isn't a gap in our offering. I also find it
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: having built a lot of businesses at JP Morgan over
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: the last thirty nine years, from our global money market
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: fund business to our mutual fund business to our ETF business.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: Let me tell you it is a hell a lot
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: more fund building things that it is acquiring things. And
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: now that doesn't mean where we don't look at everything
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: we do because I think it makes you, it makes
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: you smarter. I think there's quite a different culture in
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: the ETF business because it grew out of passive. So
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: the strategy was let's launch against as many indices, be
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: first and own as much of the market as possible.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: I think as that relates to active, it's quite a
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: different philosophy that you need to bring to it to
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: be successful because the strategies ultimately have to helperform in
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: order to succeed, and that means it needs to be
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: more focused, and they need to be capabilities that you
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: have total confidence over full market CYCLI or likely to outperform.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: So ours isn't to do everything at all costs. It's
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: to do things at a very focused level where we
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: have a competitive advantage. I'd rather build it than buy it.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: You're in a good spot. I mean you really, I
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: get that. A lot of these firms, Joel that have
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: acquired firms, they came in late and again they launched
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: a couple of products on their terms and nobody cared.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: And they're like, oh my god, they panicked and they
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: just bought companies like I said, JP Morgan had they
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: just it's like they just came in. You know. I
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: used that metaphor of a castaway. You know, Tom Hanks
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: is the middle manager. At the beginning, he's like a
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: little chunky and then you know, forty five minutes in
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: the movie, he's like weighs one hundred and forty pounds
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: and he's spearfishing. That's a legacy active manager on day
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: one versus third year in. But JP Morgan kind of
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: came almost as the spearfisher guy. And that's you know again,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: and I don't know, does Jamie Diamond take pride in
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: this because it really is unusual to come out and
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: sort of pass all of these massively popular mutual fund
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: companies and active assets. Does he understand that, like, hey,
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: my firm is taking in four times more flows than
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: any other active fund company out there? Does he follow
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: that much going on?
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Is?
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: I think he greatly appreciates the asset management business and
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: the strength of what we do. Now. Remember Jping Morgan
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: Chase is number one in investment banking, number one in
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: retail banking in the United States, So perhaps his expectations
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: are that we bring the same from management business.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, he's like, why are you not number one?
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: But listen, you know, I think the thing that the
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: board of Jping Morgan Chase, one of the things that
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: I think they've done a great job is they allow
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: us to manage our business as an asset manager. That's
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: the way we compensate eight people. Our business has a
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: very long tail. The decisions that we made five ten
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: years ago are the reason that we're having success today.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: So it's a little bit different, and I think they,
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: you know, allow us to manage the business that way.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: All right, final question, it's one that we always ask
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: what is your favorite ETF ticket other than any that
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: JP Morgan does, other.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: Than a JP Morgan ETF. Oh that's a very difficult question.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: That's why I asked. I mean, I really only know
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: our ETF.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: So yeah, any any that give you a chuckle when
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: somebody says moo, for instance, does that make you laugh?
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: I laugh quite a bit when I watch look at
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: ETF product development and what's what's coming out? That is?
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: That is for sure?
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: They just fired. They just filed one Jedi, which is
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: like JEPI Jedi is a I believe it's a Space
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: ETF or something like that Drone.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: I would hope it Space.
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: That's a good ticker.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: It is a good ticker. So Jetty Jedi and now
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Jetpy anyway, Jetpy's pretty good. It's I'm a big fan
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: of vowels, and you guys have a lot of vowels.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Jet by jet Q. It's just easy for an analyst.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Jpst a little trick here, but hello, what do you
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: call it? Hello? Sometimes I have names for tickers and
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: the asset managers, like nobody at our shop calls at
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: that like jaw.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: You're not pronouncing it great Janus.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: People are like, that's j triple A, only the Bloomberg
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: people call it JAW And I'm like, all right, well.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: Anyway, that's one of the amazing things about the ETF
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: effort at JP Morgan. I'm not sure portfolio managers knew
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: the tickers of our mutual funds. Well, let me tell you.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: They know the tickers of the ets that they're running,
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: and they you know, what's probably the most important product
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: capability that they they offer, and it's how they get paid.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: They get paid and the shares of the ETFs that
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: they run on behalf of clients. It's pretty unique.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Ola Jade, that's a good one.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: What's jade?
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: That is the active developed markets? So you got a
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: temp some some interesting ones in here. You wouldn't it
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: would be weird if you went too crazy. You don't
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: want to go to full.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: I'm sure there's the full direction.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: They're the crazy ticker. Yeah, you want to middle it out?
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, all right, George got going to stay mainstream.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: George Gosh, thanks for joining us on trias. Thank you,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: John Munch, thanks for listening to trillions. Until next time.
• 38:28
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• 38:43
  Speaker 1: executive producer. Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcast