Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Toby Hadoke Interview - Acting & Comedy

Transcript

Toby Hadoke Interview - Acting & Comedy · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:40
  Quicker, Quicker. Welcome back to a hamster with a
• 0:42
  blunt pen knife. But we're not doing a Doctor Who
• 0:46
  commentary podcast this week. We are in fact having an
• 0:50
  interview with the magnificent Mr. Toby Haydoke, writer,
• 0:54
  comedian, podcaster, presenter. And amazing Doctor Who fan.
• 1:00
  Hello, Toby. How are you today?
• 1:02
  Well, I'm. I mean, I I mean, bless you, I
• 1:05
  feel, I feel like the Michael Sheard of Doctor Who podcasts.
• 1:09
  He became a bit of a joke late in his life, didn't he?
• 1:11
  Remember SFX Magazine would advertise Doctor Who
• 1:13
  conventions. They do the guest list and
• 1:15
  Michael Sheard would be on it. They go, what a surprise.
• 1:17
  And I think, you know, I'm very aware of how Peter Kay keeps
• 1:20
  his, you know, keeps releases things every so often and, you
• 1:24
  know, keeps his cachet sort of rather exclusive.
• 1:29
  Me, I just say, I just say yes. So here I am, so sorry.
• 1:32
  Everybody lingering around like, yes, like Mr. Bronson Hawking
• 1:37
  his books at the Doctor Who convention.
• 1:40
  I'm the one who's blessed, cuz you always say yes to me every
• 1:43
  time I pinch myself. Well, I do.
• 1:45
  I like talking to you, Joe, and I like your podcast, so it's
• 1:48
  always a pleasure to be asked. Compliment.
• 1:51
  Thank you very much. You did come at me, didn't you?
• 1:55
  When I suggested this and you said to me why you could
• 1:59
  possibly want to listen to this, I I always think of, I always
• 2:04
  say Richard Todd in kinder going.
• 2:06
  They're not very interesting though.
• 2:09
  And I always say I I I cannot. I'm a massive Doctor Who fan.
• 2:13
  I would not want to listen to a podcast interview with someone
• 2:18
  with me or my equivalent. I'm just a I'm just a I'm just a
• 2:22
  Doctor Who fan who's, you know, had had the been fortunate
• 2:27
  enough to be on on some, you know, extra content.
• 2:30
  But that that would annoy me rather than make me want to hear
• 2:34
  more from that person. Well, I I was thinking about
• 2:39
  kind of what I wanted to do for the 60th anniversary and because
• 2:43
  like everybody was planning. Big podcast things you know I'm
• 2:47
  going to do a countdown of the top 60 of stories.
• 2:50
  You know I'm going to name the creative and Doctor Who that and
• 2:54
  and just all of this and I was like you know what I don't I
• 2:56
  don't want to do any of that I want to find somebody who is
• 3:00
  connected with Doctor Who in lots of different ways and that
• 3:05
  person is you. I I actually, I'm perfectly
• 3:08
  convinced now you are the and I'm not putting you in that
• 3:11
  super fan category because that way lies madness and.
• 3:15
  Well, we won't go there, but I think you might.
• 3:18
  For me, you might be like the ultimate Doctor Who fan, not in
• 3:21
  just the content that you produce, but in the the
• 3:26
  participation you've had in it as well.
• 3:28
  The interviews you've done with the contributors, the Big Finish
• 3:31
  stories that you have been a part of, the books that you have
• 3:35
  written critiquing the show like you kind of are Doctor Who to
• 3:39
  me, so. Well, take that one, please.
• 3:43
  All right. Well, how, how peculiar.
• 3:47
  Well, that's very nice. So, is this for this is your
• 3:49
  60th anniversary release, is it? This is this is.
• 3:52
  Going out that week, Yes. I'm so sorry everybody.
• 3:57
  People are really excited, shut up, and what I'm planning on
• 4:02
  doing is splitting this into three separate episodes For the
• 4:08
  first one, we will be covering. Acting and comedy.
• 4:13
  That's right. That you do exceptionally well.
• 4:18
  The first question I would like to ask you is why acting?
• 4:25
  Why performing? Why comedy?
• 4:28
  Where did that come from? Well, I Doctor Who really.
• 4:34
  I well, I was a kid. I was brought up in the middle
• 4:37
  of nowhere in the countryside. I was the youngest of four, but
• 4:40
  there's a gap between me and and #3, so they were all quite close
• 4:44
  about year in between. And then there's four years and
• 4:46
  then there's me. When I was four my dad buggered
• 4:48
  off. So Mum, Mum had to sort of go
• 4:51
  back to work and struggled quite hard on her own.
• 4:53
  So it was very much sort of left to my own devices and and so had
• 4:58
  a lot of time to sort of pour over Doctor Who books.
• 5:00
  And you know, my my mind is probably not unlike yours and
• 5:04
  and a great many of the listeners is that, you know,
• 5:06
  it's not enough to, you know, read a read a Doctor Who story
• 5:11
  then want to sort of know all about it and the making of it
• 5:14
  and then all of that. And of course, once you discover
• 5:16
  Doctor Who, if your mind is made-up a particular way, you
• 5:19
  you can dive so far into discuss, discovering all sorts
• 5:23
  of things about it. To the extent that you know you
• 5:25
  can, you can. You can now catalog which Dalek
• 5:28
  props for in which scene and which particular story, thanks
• 5:30
  to the likes of Gavraimil and and and and and, you know,
• 5:34
  there's all sorts of different areas like that.
• 5:36
  So I I I somehow got interested in.
• 5:42
  I remember my I'm I'm from the place called just just outside
• 5:46
  the place called Ludlow in Shropshire.
• 5:48
  And every year they do a Shakespeare play at Ludlow
• 5:50
  Castle with a professional company, And my brother was a
• 5:53
  schoolboy when they did Richard the 3rd.
• 5:56
  And they needed two schoolboys to be in Richard the third,
• 5:59
  which was directed by a man called Peter Krigeen, who later
• 6:03
  went on to make quite a contribution to the destruction
• 6:06
  of Doctor Who. But he was a very.
• 6:08
  Devastating blow. A very good Shakespearean
• 6:12
  director and the Ludlow festival was quite was quite high quality
• 6:16
  and it always had because it was only it was a two week open air
• 6:18
  performance in Ludlow castle of a Shakespeare play.
• 6:21
  So they rehearsed for four weeks in London and then came and did
• 6:23
  it for a week's rehearsal in Ludlow and then a two week, two
• 6:26
  week run. So you know a lovely place to
• 6:28
  stay for a couple of weeks to do a Shakespeare play in the open
• 6:31
  air. So they always got very casts
• 6:33
  and when when they did Richard the third it was Edward Woodward
• 6:37
  played Richard the Third I know and and my brother was one of
• 6:42
  the school boys used to play the Princess in the tower.
• 6:44
  And I remember him coming and coming back with signed with a
• 6:47
  signed program and signed posters and pictures of sort of
• 6:50
  behind the scenes and it looked to me like a wonderful thing to
• 6:52
  do to be to hang out with actors.
• 6:55
  That seemed to me to be an amazing thing.
• 6:57
  And one of the actors in it was Jerome Willis who plays Stevens
• 7:00
  in The Green Death. And he bless him in his
• 7:02
  biography in in the program that put, you know to put the
• 7:05
  Jerome's television credits include, you know The
• 7:07
  Sandbaggers, War of the Roses and Doctor Who and the Green
• 7:11
  Death in which he played the lead villain.
• 7:13
  And I thought wow. So and actors like being in
• 7:16
  Doctor Who and it also in it were were Malfa and the voice of
• 7:21
  the Rills, who's the same person and John Rolfe who's in the
• 7:27
  Green Death as well but also in the Moon Base and the War
• 7:30
  machines. And so there's a Derek Ware was
• 7:32
  in it. I saw Derek Ware in rehearsal
• 7:34
  then discovered he was, you know, he'd done all the stuff
• 7:36
  too. So that seemed to wow you can
• 7:37
  get close to these people and that could be a thing.
• 7:40
  So I had that as an ambition for for when I was at school if if
• 7:44
  ever that opportunity arose. And it did the when it it didn't
• 7:48
  happen all the time that they used local kids for speaking
• 7:52
  parts. But there's just a coincidence
• 7:54
  that local people did do sort of supernumerary, you know, held
• 7:57
  Spears at the back and stuff. But when they did The Merchant
• 7:59
  of Venice, they asked school kids if they wanted to be in it
• 8:05
  and there was, there was you know one part with a couple of
• 8:07
  lines going. And so me and my mate did all
• 8:09
  the spear carrying and and they asked me to to do the 2 lines.
• 8:13
  I just got asked to do the 2 lines and the director of that
• 8:15
  was Arturo Avila from the war games, Michael Napier Brown and
• 8:20
  Shylock was played by Jimmy Ellis who just done Battlefield,
• 8:23
  I mean literally I think the year before.
• 8:26
  And it also had the radar technician from the 10th planet,
• 8:29
  Chris Matthews. And the Borat was in it, Bob
• 8:32
  Ashby. So there I was as a 16 year old
• 8:35
  just leaving school hanging around backstage and I must have
• 8:40
  bored the actors to death And they were all so kind.
• 8:43
  I was welcomed into that company.
• 8:44
  Then they got an extension to do a week in London and they took
• 8:47
  us with them to Kensington open it somewhere and and so you
• 8:52
  know, and and and if and what would happen was if if somebody
• 8:55
  came to see it that one of the cars knew they'd go.
• 8:58
  Don't suppose you've done a Doctor Who, have you.
• 9:00
  And if they went, yeah, they said when you have lunch with
• 9:02
  him. So I had lunch with.
• 9:03
  I had lunch with with Bore from from Terminus, just because he
• 9:07
  knew one of the cast and they said, oh, he he'd probably love
• 9:10
  to talk to you about Doctor Who. So I talked to Peter Benson.
• 9:13
  I love Bore and Terminus. Tell me, tell me.
• 9:16
  He was amazing, He was lovely. But of course I didn't have a
• 9:19
  There was no phones in those days, so I didn't record it.
• 9:22
  I didn't even take a picture, you know, Although I did meet.
• 9:25
  I did meet one couple years later when I was just beer
• 9:28
  carrying. I did meet Ramo from the
• 9:30
  underwater menace and I've got a picture of him but so I I loved
• 9:33
  being. I was attracted to the life
• 9:36
  first and foremost and I loved and I and I found I I loved
• 9:39
  doing Shakespeare at school because I I I found the word
• 9:43
  stuck and and and and I was always told I remember my
• 9:47
  brother telling me it was really hard because it's I am big
• 9:49
  pentameter and it's really difficult to understand.
• 9:51
  So when I found I could remember it and I could understand it.
• 9:53
  I thought, oh, I've managed that.
• 9:55
  Oh, I feel good about that. So I I wanted to do Shakespeare,
• 9:59
  but I but I mostly wanted to do Doctor Who.
• 10:02
  But I had a problem in that I had a very weak ah, I I was.
• 10:07
  I mean my brother. Remember my family beforeing at
• 10:10
  me when I said could we video the South Bank show that night?
• 10:14
  Because there was a there was a they were doing a a profile of
• 10:19
  somebody who'd been involved with Doctor Who and it was the
• 10:22
  the guy who'd done the incidental music for the Aztecs.
• 10:25
  As it turns out he he wasn't he wasn't the Aztecs wasn't covered
• 10:28
  in the show at all. But I didn't know that and and
• 10:31
  it was too late for me to be on. So I said I said oh can can you
• 10:34
  record the South Bank show tonight because they're
• 10:36
  featuring a guy from Doctor Who and and and my mom said who is
• 10:39
  it. And and my brother later said
• 10:42
  you know you you blushed as soon as you realized you were going
• 10:45
  to have to say it out loud because it was Richard Rodney
• 10:47
  Bennett and of course and they and they and I was I was teased
• 10:52
  mercilessly for that. And so I used to practice sort
• 10:56
  of rolling my r's and doing Shakespeare and all of that sort
• 10:59
  of thing to it to improve the way that I spoke.
• 11:03
  But I I did worry for a bit that I wouldn't be able to act with a
• 11:05
  weak R So I I thought about directing and I liked the idea
• 11:10
  of casting and I was and what I and I always looked out for
• 11:14
  actors in other things. So that because I got the Doctor
• 11:17
  episode guide so so I knew I'd started to remember which actors
• 11:21
  played which part. So when I was reading the target
• 11:23
  books, if I'd seen them in something else, I could imagine
• 11:26
  what that character looked like. And I think without realizing
• 11:28
  it, I trained myself to to spot actors in things.
• 11:32
  This is where it all began. This is where it this is where
• 11:34
  it all began. And I got quite good at that.
• 11:37
  And I would read, you know, I would read cast lists and I
• 11:39
  would remember names and and all of that.
• 11:42
  But I, you know, I didn't. I didn't sort of sit down and
• 11:44
  swat it. It just my my sort of Jack door
• 11:48
  mind worked that way. So I was always very interested
• 11:51
  in actors. I was always thrilled to meet an
• 11:54
  actor. The idea that you could meet an
• 11:55
  actor and hang around with actor.
• 11:56
  Those that I did meet, I was found very kind and very lovely
• 12:00
  and an actors on chat shows always had, you know, great
• 12:02
  stories about theatrical disasters and things and it just
• 12:05
  seemed to me like a wonderful life.
• 12:07
  But I I from the countryside in the middle of nowhere.
• 12:10
  No, despite my brother doing that.
• 12:13
  You know, walk on that that that Prince in the tower.
• 12:15
  We weren't a theatrical family at all.
• 12:17
  I mean I remember going to see a production of Hamlet with my
• 12:20
  mother because the school had an extra ticket and and and it was
• 12:25
  the first folio of Hamlet. So it was you know to be or not
• 12:28
  to be I there's the point and there's lots to talk about.
• 12:30
  You go well the language is slightly different and the and
• 12:32
  the one thing my mom said in the interval was go don't you think
• 12:35
  Ophelia's got thick ankles. So you know we weren't we
• 12:38
  weren't from a we weren't from we weren't a family of of
• 12:41
  theatrical aptitude although all all all of my brothers and
• 12:45
  sisters had had dipped their toe in.
• 12:48
  But you know we were told we don't know anybody We we can't
• 12:53
  afford to send you to drama school.
• 12:54
  We didn't have any money. I mean Dad had left one with
• 12:58
  absolutely nothing and she, you know she thought she was going
• 13:00
  to lose the house every year and and just about managed to not do
• 13:03
  that. And you know you will never act
• 13:08
  unless you get an equity card. And how do you get an equity
• 13:11
  card when you go to drama school when I can't afford that and I
• 13:14
  didn't think I'd ever get in either So it it seemed like an
• 13:19
  impossible thing and I'd always been so but but but it was it
• 13:24
  was certainly what I wanted to do.
• 13:26
  But I I ended up going to university because I I think mom
• 13:32
  wanted me to to because I'd always been quite academic at
• 13:34
  school and so I went to so I did English and drama at university
• 13:39
  double honors which was half practical half academic so that
• 13:43
  I got some sort of ballast and I think I was.
• 13:47
  I'd considered going doing a postgrad after university but
• 13:50
  again I I think I worried that if I auditioned for drama school
• 13:54
  and didn't get in that would be the end of the dream.
• 13:58
  I I look back on a lot of my life and wish I'd had more
• 14:01
  confidence in myself so in and and and whilst I was at
• 14:07
  university I started doing stand up because a friend of mine put
• 14:10
  on a stand up night and said why don't you have a go.
• 14:12
  And I quite like, I thought I again, it was something that I
• 14:15
  never imagined I could do. So I thought, well, I'll have a
• 14:17
  I'll have a bash because I have no, I I know that you know I'm
• 14:21
  never going to get anywhere but so there's so there's nothing to
• 14:24
  lose. I'm not very good if if I'm in
• 14:26
  with a just a chance of getting something, I sort of flake and
• 14:30
  screw it up. Whereas if I think this, if I
• 14:32
  think there's absolutely no hope, I seem to somehow dig deep
• 14:35
  into OK, yeah, it's it's only if all is lost that you can rely on
• 14:39
  me. If the ship's going down, I'll
• 14:42
  I'll rescue us. If the ship is an inch from
• 14:44
  shore, I'll miss grabbing onto the thing we need.
• 14:48
  We've all got that digging our hills and and and so I started
• 14:53
  doing stand up just to see if I could and I thought it might
• 14:55
  improve my lot of auditions I thought it might make me better
• 14:58
  on the telephone I'm I'm I'm still very nervous about phoning
• 15:01
  people up and I do not very just socially robust or confident so
• 15:06
  I thought it would help with all of that and because of that I
• 15:08
  kind of and and people started paying me to do it.
• 15:11
  So when I left university the only thing I got really was the
• 15:15
  odd £40 gig here and there around Manchester.
• 15:19
  So I then wasted the next couple of years thinking that that was
• 15:22
  somehow the way to you know the the the that's how I would
• 15:27
  become. You know, an an actor was to was
• 15:30
  to do, you know to get get for stand up to open some doors and
• 15:35
  it to happen that way. And then acting voice over and
• 15:38
  stand up all sort of started to creep in largely by accident
• 15:43
  sometimes by design and I just kept sort of chipping away
• 15:47
  really. So that yeah, so, so acting was
• 15:51
  a huge ambition and has always been my main ambition.
• 15:55
  Stand up was a was an accident that got out of hand, but I'm
• 15:59
  very grateful to and one day I might consider myself a proper
• 16:03
  one. You know I'm the complete
• 16:06
  opposite of you. Okay.
• 16:08
  If you asked me to pick up the phone and make a telephone call,
• 16:12
  I could do it and be as charming as hell.
• 16:14
  If you asked me to stand up in front of a room full of people
• 16:17
  and try and be funny. That I that I found that really,
• 16:21
  really interesting because you would think the the the stand up
• 16:25
  that requires a huge amount of confidence to go out and do
• 16:28
  that. No, I think it's because if
• 16:30
  you're doing stand up you have license.
• 16:32
  Somebody has paid a ticket, somebody has paid to see a
• 16:35
  performance if if there's a performative element to it.
• 16:38
  I have a job to do and a responsibility and I take those
• 16:42
  things seriously. I've I've always been
• 16:44
  selfemployed. So if ever anyone's giving me
• 16:47
  money to do something I feel I have to earn it.
• 16:49
  Which is why I get very annoyed when doing this job.
• 16:52
  When you encounter people who are on a salary working for say
• 16:55
  companies who make DV DS or you know whatever or what or put A
• 17:00
  and and they're you or run venues who don't do their job
• 17:05
  who don't work we're lazy or useless and you think Christ you
• 17:07
  you know you get holiday pay you get a pension you get.
• 17:10
  I have to I have to graft. I have to sometimes work for you
• 17:14
  know 12 hours for a job. I get paid to do 2 hours work
• 17:17
  for you know whatever. So because of that I always you
• 17:22
  know you take your response I take my responsibility to to an
• 17:24
  audience. You know people have paid money
• 17:26
  to see you even if it's not particularly you but it's the
• 17:29
  the night that you're you have to be on it.
• 17:31
  You do have a responsibility to to come up with the goods and
• 17:34
  and also and you can hide behind performance.
• 17:37
  It's not if iPhone somebody up I get butterflies in the stomach I
• 17:43
  feel physically sick because it might be an inconvenient time
• 17:46
  that I might be I might annoy them and that's me annoying
• 17:49
  them. Whereas if I'm doing a
• 17:51
  performance you know it might just be that they're a bit
• 17:53
  pissed and they they don't like it or that that that you know
• 17:56
  they want to do all sorts of other reasons.
• 17:59
  But but at least there's a block between actual me and them even
• 18:04
  though it looks and sounds like me or or whatever.
• 18:06
  And and like you know I couldn't do street theater where you have
• 18:09
  to be very bold and and and get a crowd around you and be very
• 18:12
  outgoing and very confident. I do admire those people but I
• 18:15
  couldn't do that because I I feel that people need to come to
• 18:19
  me then that's given me a license and then once there's a
• 18:22
  room for the people and there's a microphone there well you've
• 18:24
  got to do something because otherwise it's a disaster.
• 18:27
  So then then again that the ship's going down.
• 18:30
  I've got to, I've got to start. I've got to start.
• 18:31
  Get the bucket out, you know. They pay for a ticket, so
• 18:34
  there's like a permission to be there, isn't there permission
• 18:36
  Absolutely. I still the most terrifying day
• 18:40
  of my life is the day I decided to buck up the confidence and
• 18:44
  try a moment of comedy. So I went to a improvisation
• 18:50
  class in Brighton in this church hall.
• 18:55
  And to this day, I've never been so mortified as to when I stood
• 19:01
  up in front, it was about 20 people in the room.
• 19:03
  I stood up in front of him and there was two of us going out.
• 19:06
  Like I just froze. I I just couldn't be spontaneous
• 19:10
  like that, Like like funny. So anyone that can that can
• 19:13
  deliver a comic performance I'm in awe of.
• 19:17
  It's it's funny. Actors seem to admire it.
• 19:21
  You know when when when you're doing an acting job with
• 19:23
  somebody and they find out that you do stand up as well.
• 19:26
  Actors always go oh God, I couldn't do that and I have to
• 19:29
  say I do. I think there is a, a, a an
• 19:31
  extra carapace if you're an actor because you're you're
• 19:34
  playing a character and because it is a slightly more controlled
• 19:37
  situation. People don't really frown if
• 19:39
  frown if you move about or shout out or something at A at a stand
• 19:43
  up gig. And they they do if you're in a
• 19:44
  in a play. I much prefer the controlled
• 19:46
  environment of a of a theater, you know and and just structured
• 19:52
  you're going to piece piece that you you're working towards.
• 19:55
  And I like working in a company as well, but but most of what
• 19:58
  I've done has been has been stand up.
• 20:00
  Because I started this stand up night in 1997 where my my
• 20:04
  brotherinlaw was in a band at a pub and the landlord said I
• 20:10
  quite fancy doing a comedy night on Tuesdays.
• 20:12
  And he went, oh, my brotherinlaw's a comedian so I
• 20:15
  met with this guy and and we. Started this Tuesday night which
• 20:19
  I thought would run for eight weeks and last week we
• 20:22
  celebrated our 26th birthday and that that was again just me
• 20:27
  going well I want people to come back next week what do I have to
• 20:30
  do to ensure that And again I didn't you know I've never
• 20:32
  really made much money out of it.
• 20:34
  If any sort of runs on a nonprofit making basis really
• 20:36
  the we we charge very little. But that empowers me to then go
• 20:41
  well if you're a bunch of pricks on a stag do or an office party
• 20:44
  I can just go to come in with that's not what this is for.
• 20:47
  And if people you go well actually in a comedy night you
• 20:49
  go well actually this is my company night and it's this is
• 20:51
  how I do it and I'm fine with that.
• 20:54
  So it's it's you know it's it's not 1 where one encourages
• 20:58
  boisterousness. I could deal with that.
• 20:59
  I've done junglers on a Saturday night you know I can I can deal
• 21:02
  with the hecklers and and actually you know there was a
• 21:06
  phase back ten years ago where I you know I I think I was pretty
• 21:09
  reliable comic for taming a difficult crowd but it I I that
• 21:15
  bought they I can do it but I it annoys me I I don't I don't I
• 21:21
  don't get much satisfaction for if if for going out and and
• 21:25
  having to deal with with drunk people Do you know what I mean
• 21:27
  that's I mean fine I could do it but it's not I don't get an
• 21:30
  awful lot of satisfaction. Well I do yeah it's just not
• 21:32
  what I particularly aim to want to spend my time doing.
• 21:36
  So the Tuesday nights excess malarkey is a is a lovely night
• 21:39
  where comics and very eclectic comics and very different comics
• 21:42
  and comics who might not prosper on a Friday and Saturday night
• 21:45
  in front of drunken people can have a great time.
• 21:48
  But as can established acts like Sarah Millican and Delisa
• 21:51
  Chiponder and Robin Ints and Alan Cochran and Gary Delaney,
• 21:54
  all of whom have done it in the past that Joe likes.
• 21:57
  It comes all the time because because I I booked a lot of
• 22:00
  these people early in their career and I was nice to them.
• 22:02
  It's not, it's not rocket science.
• 22:05
  People say, you know, how come you get all these great comics
• 22:07
  coming to your club? You know, well, I wasn't a prick
• 22:10
  when they started out, and if there was money on the door, I
• 22:12
  gave them a bit and and and I and they played in front of nice
• 22:17
  audiences. And I've seen, I think they were
• 22:19
  great endorsements. I think I saw one from Joe
• 22:22
  lasted the other week. Yeah, a video endorsement of
• 22:26
  excess malarkey. Yeah, Joe says.
• 22:28
  It's the best company club in the world, bless him.
• 22:30
  And he gives us a credit on the end of all of his.
• 22:32
  One man showed DVD's in the credits and everything.
• 22:34
  He's a lovely boy. He was.
• 22:35
  He was there last week. That's the Ella Braverman letter
• 22:38
  that he he put out on Instagram. He did live.
• 22:40
  He did live, but he did it for the first time live at my gig
• 22:43
  the night before. Yeah.
• 22:46
  So, you know, that's that sort of stuff, you know, it's, it's
• 22:49
  lovely. But it's it was never my
• 22:52
  ambition. I just wanted people to come
• 22:54
  back next week. And I've, you know, I've always
• 22:57
  been a bit of a grafter, I guess, because I've always
• 22:59
  worried that nobody will ever employ me and I'll never be good
• 23:02
  enough. So you have to sort of produce
• 23:04
  it all yourself. So I'm I'm I'm you know I'm not
• 23:08
  I'm not afraid of sort of hard work in that that regard and and
• 23:13
  that's made it kind of that's why it's carried on.
• 23:16
  I mean since since I started I've you know there are other
• 23:19
  people who fall in love with the club who helped do the door and
• 23:21
  do the tech and help organize it and and now one of those
• 23:25
  audience members now books the acts.
• 23:27
  So I sort of just have to turn up and turn up and do the
• 23:30
  accounts basically turn up do the gig and make sure that we
• 23:37
  haven't gone past which it's always a close thing but it's
• 23:42
  much it's much easier than it was when I started but it's
• 23:45
  still, it's still an uphill struggle because you lose venues
• 23:48
  or you know we've had to change venue very recently.
• 23:52
  I I feel like Sisyphus I there's it's never after 26 years I
• 23:57
  would hope there would be some form of momentum but there's
• 24:00
  not. It's always you're always
• 24:02
  swimming against the tide. You're still going after 26
• 24:05
  years. You said earlier about people
• 24:07
  coming back next week. Well, 26 years.
• 24:09
  That's not a bad run so far, no. But, you know, a lot of people
• 24:13
  who've been doing things that have been successful for 26
• 24:16
  years have have, you know, maybe, maybe it's a reasonable
• 24:20
  living. Don't think I've ever done that.
• 24:23
  Well, away from sort of any kind of financial reward, what's the
• 24:27
  personal sort of gratification for performing comedy?
• 24:32
  Is it? Is it sort of the reaction of
• 24:33
  the crowd? Yeah.
• 24:36
  I yes, absolutely. And it's immediate.
• 24:38
  You know if if you there's there's nothing better than than
• 24:43
  than saying something and it it it generating A spontaneous
• 24:48
  round of applause from a bunch of strangers and you know I
• 24:54
  think I I you know I I always felt like a bit of a an in
• 24:59
  Trudeau and I certainly felt like an an actor who was doing
• 25:02
  stand up and that is a particular breed and they are
• 25:05
  slightly looked down upon by your proper proper stand ups.
• 25:09
  I feel like I've hurt my stripes down and that maybe I'm I'm a
• 25:12
  bit more than an actor doing stand up.
• 25:14
  I would I would hope my my peers would agree but I also I I am
• 25:19
  see it. I I tend to MC now rather than
• 25:21
  do sets because it's just what I like doing and I'm more
• 25:23
  comfortable doing where again you can sort of hide behind the
• 25:27
  job because you say well if nothing else I can just give
• 25:31
  information say you know there's an interval at this point or
• 25:34
  please turn your mobile phones off.
• 25:35
  That doesn't have to be funny now.
• 25:37
  But then if you think a funny way of saying that oh that's a
• 25:39
  bonus. So it's again it's it's sort of
• 25:42
  finding psychological tricks to play on yourself to go well
• 25:45
  there's no expectation that I will be funny here and then when
• 25:48
  you are it's pleasant surprise for everybody so but I think
• 25:53
  because I never had massive ambition.
• 25:55
  I didn't Well it's not that I didn't have ambition it's just I
• 25:58
  never thought I'd be. I never thought I'd be good
• 26:01
  enough to play the Comedy Store and I've closed the Comedy Store
• 26:03
  so you know but I. But because I I never thought I
• 26:08
  would be good enough to do it. It meant I I don't think I ever
• 26:11
  quite tricked myself up. You know I never it it never got
• 26:15
  to that really important thing that I I mean every every time I
• 26:18
  did have an important gig which could have led to something else
• 26:20
  I I did usually screw it up. I always, I always do that and
• 26:23
  I've never impressed industry people.
• 26:25
  I don't know why that you know, do's and things like that.
• 26:28
  I've never been a good networker and I and I always thought,
• 26:31
  well, I'll just let the work speak for itself And I rather
• 26:34
  naively thought that that that's a way to prosper in this
• 26:38
  business and I'm not necessarily sure that it is.
• 26:41
  An element of like schmoozing or you just give the performance
• 26:45
  and then schmoozing sounds. I think networking is a skill.
• 26:51
  Jimmy Carr is an excellent comic.
• 26:54
  He's also an excellent. He was also an excellent
• 26:56
  networker when he was starting out and he worked really hard
• 26:58
  and he and he went to all the right things.
• 27:01
  You know, that's that's not to say he didn't have the skill to
• 27:04
  back it up, but he's also a really good.
• 27:06
  He was also really good at that side of things.
• 27:09
  But they're also, but that's that, you know I could easily
• 27:11
  say, oh I'm yes, I'd be hosting if I got news for you now if I'd
• 27:14
  been a good networker. No, I I it took me a while to
• 27:17
  find my voice as a comic. As I say I always I also I also
• 27:22
  used to think that being a bit of an ass would you know if if
• 27:27
  there were industry people in would would make me seem you
• 27:30
  know like I didn't take any prisoners and it just actually
• 27:34
  put people off I think you know and and and I think and and it's
• 27:38
  not really me either so it was it was sort of false too So you
• 27:41
  I mean you could hindsight is always 2020 it is what it is if
• 27:47
  if you know could I be doing. Could I have done.
• 27:51
  Well I don't know I've I've you know I've done a show at the
• 27:53
  West End I've had a radio series I I always thought things like
• 27:56
  that would maybe lead to something else but but I've I
• 28:00
  think I've discovered as I've got older that there's actually
• 28:03
  one thing doesn't necessarily lead to another It's all a
• 28:06
  series of sort of accidents I just when you think Oh well
• 28:10
  that's not going to happen now because it didn't happen when I
• 28:12
  did that then that will happen from another direction And I
• 28:16
  think the thing to do is there's nothing worse than a than than a
• 28:22
  bitter actor or a or or a a comedian that thinks he's owed a
• 28:27
  living. So I tried very hard to just go
• 28:29
  well I just got to keep doing it and I've been luckier than some
• 28:32
  and I've been unlucky than some and there are worse comedians
• 28:35
  than me that are on television this week and there are better
• 28:39
  comedians that may that have probably never been on Radio 4
• 28:42
  extra or been asked to do some of the things I've been asked to
• 28:45
  do. So you have to you you just have
• 28:48
  to go well I you you can only do what you do and try and do it
• 28:52
  well and and you know excess monarchy is an achievement you
• 28:58
  know that I do. I am very proud of that it's it
• 29:01
  is respected within the within the circuit.
• 29:05
  Again, part of me slightly rueful that, you know, I'll
• 29:09
  still encounter people who are comedy producers at the BBC and
• 29:12
  I'll go and say, oh, I'm right. You know, I'm seeing excess
• 29:14
  malarkey every Tuesday. And they go, oh, what's that
• 29:16
  then? And you go, oh, I would hope
• 29:18
  you'd have heard of it, but there we go, you know, but for
• 29:22
  the satisfaction of what it actually is and the lovely
• 29:25
  audience we get every week and and and the lovely comedians
• 29:28
  that play it, you know it. Yeah, it is.
• 29:30
  It is a lovely thing. I'm going to ask a very
• 29:34
  nonspecific question now, and this will show you how much I.
• 29:38
  Understand comedy, but how would you describe your your own
• 29:43
  personal comedy like your the comedy that, well, it's.
• 29:47
  Yeah, I know. It's it's hard because sometimes
• 29:50
  when you say to people, I tend not to tell people I'm a
• 29:51
  comedian because it leads to questions you can't necessarily
• 29:55
  answer or it's disappointing because.
• 29:57
  You ever get like and tell us a joke?
• 29:59
  Yeah, you can't. You can't.
• 30:01
  I was wondering to ask you that. You know, I thought no don't be
• 30:04
  obvious it doesn't work. And I always cringe on you know
• 30:06
  5 live when there's a phone in and and quite often you know
• 30:10
  they get comics on and then somebody will say so and the
• 30:12
  presenter will go so you're a comic Jim.
• 30:15
  What would you say about this news coming and you go I can't
• 30:18
  I'm on a radio phone and it's not the same as being on a stand
• 30:21
  up stage and it always that it's always really awkward and
• 30:24
  terrible. I always say now that it takes
• 30:28
  most comics seven or eight years to find their voice.
• 30:33
  And when they find it, the real pisser is it's it's actually
• 30:37
  pretty much like the one that you talk it in real life.
• 30:40
  So I mean when I started, I wanted to be Bill Hicks.
• 30:43
  You know I wanted to change the world.
• 30:45
  I wanted to be confrontational and wise and kind of slightly
• 30:49
  raggedy, but you know, beatnik philosopher who took no shit and
• 30:53
  changed the world by sticking it to the man.
• 30:56
  And then you're. Going to tell me that you found
• 30:58
  out that that's not who you are at all well and then I tried to
• 31:03
  be Jack a bit Jack DA bit sort of you know tacit a bit grumpy
• 31:08
  and anti comedy. And as I went on and I used to
• 31:12
  compare the frog and bucket which is a Manchester company
• 31:15
  club that you you cannot be a shrinking Violet to MC or to
• 31:19
  play at and and and and because I earned my stripes in in
• 31:23
  Manchester I always thought I was on the back foot because I
• 31:26
  looked and sounded like this. So I would try and sort of
• 31:29
  coarsen myself up. I would try and try and not be
• 31:32
  the middle class wanker they would assume that I was.
• 31:36
  I mean correctly let's let's be fair.
• 31:39
  But actually as I went on and I got better and more confident as
• 31:42
  a comic and it was my job and I knew I had to do it.
• 31:46
  A lot of that armor sort of falls away and you end up
• 31:50
  actually just sometimes being an exaggerated version of yourself.
• 31:53
  And I you know I would go and and again because I am see a lot
• 31:56
  I make it up on the I make it up there and then I don't
• 31:59
  necessarily have material and you just talk about what's
• 32:02
  happened that week so the so the artifice gets diluted And of
• 32:07
  course then what you do is you know a lot of my stuff
• 32:10
  especially those weekend clubs you know the joke would be on on
• 32:13
  me and the fact that I was a bit of a middleclass wanker and then
• 32:18
  they couldn't say. And then if somebody heckled
• 32:20
  you're a middleclass wanker you sort of go yeah.
• 32:21
  But I've just done 10 jokes to that effect that are better than
• 32:24
  what you've just said And so you would it would disarm them in a
• 32:28
  way because it would take away anything that they wanted to say
• 32:31
  about me And I've always liked to think that generally the the
• 32:35
  the the biggest butt of any of my jokes is is me.
• 32:40
  You know I'm not I don't think I'm a punch downer.
• 32:43
  I mean, I, you know, I've, I've been very, very unkind to
• 32:46
  hecklers, but I I kind of think they deserve it.
• 32:49
  And that's again, that's part of the job.
• 32:50
  You go, well, I've I've got to I've got to shut this person up.
• 32:53
  How far can you push it? Oh, I've pushed it very far.
• 32:56
  I've. I've pushed people out the door.
• 33:01
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 33:02
  I mean with my. Yeah.
• 33:02
  With my I Well, let's. Yeah, I'm.
• 33:07
  Yeah, I know I've gone quite far.
• 33:09
  Yeah. Because I there's and there's
• 33:12
  different sorts of heckling. There's good nature tackling,
• 33:15
  which is fine, and you acknowledge it and that's great.
• 33:17
  There's there's people who don't quite get it who who think
• 33:21
  they're helping when they're not.
• 33:22
  That's quite frustrating. The worst is people who are not
• 33:25
  acting, who are just talking and ignoring it and you can't engage
• 33:27
  with them. That that's that's the killer.
• 33:30
  And then there are the assholes and you have to beat them for
• 33:32
  the good of the night because people haven't paid to to see
• 33:35
  them whether they know it or not.
• 33:37
  The night will be better off with because you can only call
• 33:40
  somebody a variety of them prick three or four times before it
• 33:44
  gets a bit bored, do you know what I mean?
• 33:47
  But but the the beauty is the dynamic usually is if you if you
• 33:51
  prove yourself and they like you and and you beat the person and
• 33:56
  they get irritated with the person then you've got the crowd
• 33:58
  on your side. Doesn't always happen but when
• 34:01
  it does you you know you then that that's very empowering and
• 34:04
  it's and it's good fun. So I'm sort of anything that the
• 34:08
  knight needs but my but my, you know, persona if you like is is
• 34:13
  you know, hopefully a bit self deprecating sort of middle class
• 34:17
  sort of furious about trivia. I'm not as political as I used
• 34:21
  to be just because I feel slightly more out of touch and
• 34:24
  actually because politics depresses me a bit more now than
• 34:27
  it than it invigorates me. I think when you're younger you
• 34:30
  can have that sort of zeal for change and you can, you know,
• 34:35
  you know, be be righteously indignant about stuff and and
• 34:38
  write quite good comedy that is satirical and angry.
• 34:43
  But but now I think I'm I'm funny or if I'm angry about you
• 34:47
  know milk cartons or the fact that I've dropped a potato on my
• 34:50
  foot. You know that that sort of stuff
• 34:54
  and and so I'm a sort of and and also you know I play I tend to
• 34:59
  play places now where I've got a a sort of short hand with the
• 35:03
  audience so I don't have to establish myself.
• 35:07
  I've started to I I need to remind myself of of of going out
• 35:10
  there and doing places where they don't know me for Adam to
• 35:13
  remind myself because I sometimes think oh I'm only
• 35:15
  getting away with it because they know me but you know no
• 35:17
  I've you know I can I can't do it and and and yeah it's it's
• 35:22
  sort of observational sometimes furious but but usually self
• 35:29
  self mocking but but but again a bit like the Doctor Who podcast
• 35:34
  I I tend to try and be sort of cheerful and positive now and to
• 35:38
  kill with kindness just because again I don't really do those
• 35:43
  Friday and Saturday nights anymore that I I don't drink
• 35:46
  anymore either so being the only sober person in Manchester City
• 35:48
  center on a Saturday night is a bit boring So again the tenor of
• 35:53
  what you're doing changes instead of being combative which
• 35:57
  you sometimes need to be to fight fire with fire.
• 35:59
  The atmosphere I try to create at nights I am see now is 1
• 36:03
  where but it's okay. We're fine.
• 36:04
  You know this is this is just nice and I don't I don't get
• 36:07
  mean unless I really need to. I've never been to one of your
• 36:11
  life formulas. I'm almost willing to bet people
• 36:13
  go away just feeling great, you know, for just last couple of
• 36:19
  hours. Life's good, you know.
• 36:21
  Well I hope so. He must must say my Doctor Who
• 36:23
  scarf taught me that really. And that was that was when my
• 36:25
  friend Mark who directed it, said, you know we we decided not
• 36:29
  to swear to have any swear words cuz we're doing a show about
• 36:32
  Doctor Who and and it and it ended up it wasn't the original
• 36:36
  ending but the ending was sort of quite positive and poignant
• 36:40
  and and for the first time I realized that actually you could
• 36:44
  you could get an audience again. I thought the way because the
• 36:47
  comedy I liked when I was a kid was satire, was angry, was stuff
• 36:51
  that would change the world as I sort of course it didn't.
• 36:53
  What it did was it made a few Guardian readers feel good about
• 36:56
  themselves. But I thought that was really
• 37:00
  good currency, you know. And I thought all these sort of
• 37:03
  left wing intellectual comics with with the bee's knees, you
• 37:06
  know as you get older you you you get you get slightly askance
• 37:09
  at some of that and realize but anyway but also there was a sort
• 37:14
  of culture war then where the alternative comedy circuit was a
• 37:17
  repost to the horrible racism and homophobia of the sort of
• 37:20
  club comic circuit. So there was, you know there's
• 37:22
  the the the ground always shifts as well and the pendulum swings
• 37:27
  depending on what what the received wisdom is And then and
• 37:29
  then other voices come in and challenge that.
• 37:31
  So the ground and the landscape is always shifting and and I
• 37:35
  think I've lasted longer than because there are some guys that
• 37:38
  were headlining when I started 20 years ago now who are, who
• 37:41
  are finding it difficult to get work.
• 37:42
  And I think because they're still trying to do what they
• 37:44
  were doing 20 years ago, people sort of get resentful and don't
• 37:47
  like the fact that they have to update their phraseology or
• 37:50
  change their outlook or that we don't look at things like that.
• 37:53
  And then actually the the rebellious youth of 20 years
• 37:56
  ago, if they're not careful, become the reactionary old men
• 37:59
  of today. You know, you don't have to look
• 38:00
  at John Cleese, for example. And.
• 38:03
  And so, you know, you have to be willing to.
• 38:05
  You have, well, you have to watch other comics.
• 38:07
  You have to respect young comics coming through.
• 38:09
  You have to respect different comedic voices.
• 38:12
  You have to actually respect people who might say you know
• 38:14
  that or or think about that joke you did 10 years ago that you
• 38:17
  probably wouldn't do now. That was fine to do 10 years
• 38:19
  years ago that that now just seems a bit ooky.
• 38:22
  And I mean, I say that as, as you know, when I go to bed,
• 38:25
  Shirley is usually going to sleep watching friends, friends,
• 38:28
  the most innocuous, brilliantly written, brilliantly acted show
• 38:31
  and you go whore. There's a lot in this that you
• 38:34
  know. Problematic.
• 38:35
  Some of it, yeah. The one where they have the
• 38:37
  final solution or the one where Ross is only trying to provoke
• 38:41
  debate. You know, whatever I said, there
• 38:43
  are all of it, you know that. That the one with a black person
• 38:46
  in it? That's in season nine.
• 38:47
  You know, you know, and you go forward.
• 38:51
  With me, that one now, and I wouldn't cancel it and I
• 38:54
  wouldn't and I wouldn't be angry with it.
• 38:56
  But you just note those things and go, OK, well, you know that
• 38:59
  it it's worth bearing in mind that you have to keep abreast of
• 39:03
  things. And as I said, I tend to want to
• 39:05
  try and be benign. But yeah, no.
• 39:07
  I used to I used to want to be a sort of political firebrand and
• 39:10
  and and and actually there's a lot of people much better at
• 39:14
  that than me as as well but also much more clued up, much more
• 39:18
  well read. And again I stepped away from
• 39:21
  the news a little bit now because I just want my to be
• 39:25
  nice. And I think politics has changed
• 39:27
  from when I was younger. But but also Master was a
• 39:30
  turning point because it made me realize that there was a as much
• 39:33
  of A value if not actually more value.
• 39:37
  I I didn't realize I was telling a story that people I would
• 39:40
  identify with. I didn't realize I was telling a
• 39:42
  story that would. I've had some quite moving
• 39:45
  things said to me about it. I wasn't.
• 39:47
  I was trying to. I thought I thought people would
• 39:49
  find it funny that I collected things that remember the names
• 39:53
  of actors and people. People are a lot of moths was
• 39:56
  motivated by me saying Doctor Who wasn't shit in the old days.
• 39:59
  There was a lot of that in it. I think that's the old angry
• 40:02
  firebrand political comedian sort of residue there.
• 40:07
  And I did actually. There are political jokes in
• 40:08
  Monster. I thought they were most
• 40:09
  important ones. The ones where I have a go at
• 40:12
  the BNP, the ones where I make a few again, I think quite now, 20
• 40:17
  years later. Smug Guardian reading political
• 40:21
  Saint George was was, you know, Saint George wasn't, wasn't
• 40:26
  actually, you know, all that sort of stuff.
• 40:27
  That smart ass leftist of which I have come out with and I
• 40:31
  thought that was the gold. And actually people came up
• 40:34
  afterwards and said, I love that stuff about you missing your dad
• 40:37
  or or being lonely at school, not fitting in at that school,
• 40:41
  not fitting in at that school. And all the stuff that was the
• 40:43
  sort of story that I had to stick jokes around because you
• 40:47
  can't just do exposition was the stuff.
• 40:49
  Well, that was an accident. I didn't know that was going to
• 40:51
  happen and it was a real turning point for me to go, oh, I I
• 40:56
  don't have to be this cross angry.
• 41:00
  You can actually make people feel comfortable and nice and
• 41:05
  happy. And actually, shouldn't
• 41:07
  comedians make people feel happy?
• 41:09
  Oh, that's it. But I hadn't expected that.
• 41:12
  I hadn't planned for that. I am aimed for that.
• 41:14
  It was on 2 levels for me. The the stuff that moved me the
• 41:17
  most was where I could see me in your experience and and sort of
• 41:22
  how much stops who men because I don't think a lot of people were
• 41:25
  talking about that. Well you see I didn't really
• 41:28
  know Doctor I didn't know Doctor Who fans so I didn't know I was
• 41:31
  telling a story that was had similarities for other people.
• 41:36
  It turns out we're all we're all a bit similar.
• 41:38
  Of course we are. But I I thought I was making
• 41:41
  jokes for people to go, ha ha ha, but actually a lot of people
• 41:44
  go, ha ha ha, I do that too. Because my instant reaction was,
• 41:50
  yeah, comedy. About Doctor Who.
• 41:52
  You know this thing that I take incredibly seriously and
• 41:55
  actually it was almost like permission for me to accept that
• 42:00
  Doctor Who is actually very funny, you know.
• 42:03
  Yes, but I didn't. I didn't want to do that thing.
• 42:05
  I used to get annoyed when sort of, you know in in fanzines and
• 42:08
  stuff when people who purported to like Doctor Who took the piss
• 42:11
  out of it. So it was very important to me
• 42:13
  that the the show was that Moths wasn't taking the piss out of
• 42:16
  Doctor Who, but it was it was allowing me to take the piss out
• 42:20
  of the fact that if you hold up what I do to the cold light of
• 42:24
  day and to ordinary people, it does seem a bit ridiculous.
• 42:30
  But that's Okay. But it wasn't to laugh at, it
• 42:33
  was to laugh with, yeah. And to look at those who say
• 42:37
  it's a very funny show. Yeah and yes and and that
• 42:45
  actually not being and I think that's the other thing and I've
• 42:48
  discovered this doing the podcast as well.
• 42:50
  I was just just been doing the Green Death and I used to I used
• 42:53
  to have real problems with the pert we era for not being what I
• 42:55
  wanted it to be from having read the Target books.
• 42:57
  But I was desperate for Doctor Who to be taken seriously by
• 43:01
  other people because then that would mean I was taken seriously
• 43:04
  maybe. But I and I look at the conduct
• 43:07
  of people on social media now where people get furious with
• 43:10
  people for not enjoying the show in the same way as your or or or
• 43:13
  or take a flippant comment and and say it's dangerous all that
• 43:16
  sort of thing. And you go the minute you lose
• 43:19
  your sense of and This is why I think Russell T Davis is so
• 43:21
  great the minute you lose the fact that it what attracted us
• 43:25
  as kids to the show. Yes it's scary and that sort of
• 43:28
  thing but but it it it it is it has a sense of fun it is a
• 43:32
  generous big hearted show of zeal and adventure and enjoyment
• 43:37
  and and the minute it's you're po faced about it I think you're
• 43:40
  lost and and and I would and I would argue the same with life
• 43:44
  as well I think you know one of the the the reason you know
• 43:49
  Doctor Who deals with the end of the universe but it it is always
• 43:54
  but not in not in a self mocking not in a an arch postmodern sort
• 43:59
  of way but it's it's John Pope's line is that you know are you
• 44:01
  serious about what I do but not necessarily about the way that I
• 44:04
  do it. The the if you lose your sense
• 44:07
  of humor and you lose your sense of imagination and your sense of
• 44:12
  wonder, the one you're not much fun to be around, you know that
• 44:16
  there's there's quite a lot of cynicism, especially in my game
• 44:18
  where people go, yeah, that's shit.
• 44:20
  I get so bored of people telling me why they think something is
• 44:23
  shit, but then I don't need to hear from you.
• 44:26
  Tell me why. I think something good that
• 44:28
  would engage me, that will invigorate me and and it's quite
• 44:31
  nice to celebrate the amount of comedians on Facebook, friends
• 44:34
  of mine and go so Hamilton, that was shit.
• 44:37
  You know this series everybody likes.
• 44:38
  I think it's shit. And you go, you're sort of
• 44:40
  casting your sage self as this sort of sage who is slightly
• 44:44
  loftier than all these all the common people who actually enjoy
• 44:47
  stuff. Yeah, it might be the default
• 44:48
  setting now. We expect things to be good.
• 44:51
  So if they're not, that's when we talk out.
• 44:55
  I just think it it passes for wisdom in some quarters.
• 45:01
  In the same way actually, that in recent times I think outrage
• 45:06
  sometimes passes for wisdom and I I feel often outrageous.
• 45:12
  Is is a is a currency for the mediocre.
• 45:14
  But. Certainly things to be
• 45:16
  outrageous about, but you know, like a piece of Doctor Who.
• 45:20
  Perhaps it's not one of them. Although I'll tell you what I
• 45:23
  think the the day I went from. Admiring your work to being
• 45:28
  completely in love with you was during your commentary for
• 45:32
  episode two of Planet of the Spiders.
• 45:35
  Where a moment that you found so cringeworthy as a child and you
• 45:40
  confess this and you're laughing so hot like belly laughing and
• 45:45
  that's chubby Oates oh blessing. You know what?
• 45:50
  He's turning a corner here. This is not only working to
• 45:55
  accentuate the positive for us, but for you as well.
• 45:59
  I think he died on a park bench. Chubby oats he was cuz he was a.
• 46:04
  I shouldn't be laughing at that. He was.
• 46:06
  He was a comedian. He's terrible at Planet of the
• 46:08
  Spiders. I know, but you're laughing.
• 46:10
  You're right off that. Bless it.
• 46:11
  Yeah. And why not Cuz he's cuz he's of
• 46:14
  a type and he's of a period and he's and he's doing what is and
• 46:18
  it would almost be worse if he wasn't a shit actor.
• 46:23
  It was. It was when you got to episode 3
• 46:25
  and Jenny Laird hits the screen and you'll still try to remain
• 46:28
  positive about the acting. And I'm like, he's struggling
• 46:32
  now. Yeah well that's that's that's
• 46:34
  not. Yeah, see the policeman in
• 46:37
  Planet of the Spiders too almost benefits from not being a very
• 46:40
  good actor. Nesca in Planet of the Spiders
• 46:43
  episode does not benefit from actually being a very good
• 46:46
  actress who's clearly been hit on the head by a frying pan or
• 46:49
  something. She's clearly banged her.
• 46:51
  I think she's walked into the door, do you know what I mean?
• 46:53
  And they've gone. My husband, can we shift the
• 47:01
  direction very quickly to because you have very recently
• 47:06
  walked the cobbles of Coronation Street, yeah.
• 47:10
  So, you know, that's a huge television show, Yeah.
• 47:15
  Obviously we've spoken about your comedy and you know, I know
• 47:18
  you've done a fair number of Big Finish stories as well.
• 47:22
  Three very different settings where you're performing on the
• 47:26
  stage, in a studio with your headphones on or at home maybe
• 47:30
  these days, and. Obviously in front of a camera.
• 47:35
  Do you have a preference? Well I've done a lot of radio
• 47:40
  drama and again that how did I get oh I got into that by
• 47:46
  mistake I they they for some reason a Radio 4 drama had
• 47:52
  failed to cast an American part and and it was due in two days
• 47:57
  time. I don't know where they gone
• 47:58
  wrong but anyway suddenly my agent got a call saying and I it
• 48:02
  says on my CV you know good ear because I'm I'm not I'm not bad
• 48:05
  at voices and accents and stuff and and so this producer rang me
• 48:10
  up and they faxed me the lines and and I did them over the
• 48:15
  phone as an American and did them American and got it and and
• 48:19
  then I think became quite useful to them as somebody that I quite
• 48:23
  often in in Radio 4 dramas. I've, you know, I've, I've
• 48:28
  played two or three different people and got got away with it.
• 48:32
  So I became very useful to Radio 4 producers up here, one for
• 48:36
  that and and two, because I sound like this.
• 48:41
  And so you become suddenly very useful for professional people.
• 48:46
  And you know this voice in, you'd find a million actors who
• 48:50
  sounded like me in London perhaps, but not so many here.
• 48:54
  So geography was helpful and once a couple of producers find
• 48:58
  you reliable and know you could do it quickly, you know, you get
• 49:02
  used quite a lot. So I've done a lot of radio
• 49:05
  drama. I've done a lot of radio drama
• 49:06
  before. I'd even done a big finish and
• 49:14
  you know some, some producers have been, you know been been
• 49:16
  very nice and and sort of get and just give me straight
• 49:18
  offers, you know, I don't have to audition for anything
• 49:21
  anymore. There's there's a lot less stuff
• 49:23
  being made here now, sadly. So I think the golden days are
• 49:26
  gone. But there was a period when I
• 49:28
  was in in in Radio 4 all the time.
• 49:31
  So I got quite, I'm quite comfortable in a radio studio
• 49:35
  and it's always quite fun because, you know, you get to do
• 49:39
  that. Proper oldfashioned acting is
• 49:41
  going well. I've got three different
• 49:42
  characters in this, so I need to make them totally distinct.
• 49:45
  But whilst not, you know, wearing a metaphorical hump and
• 49:47
  eye patch, do you know what I mean?
• 49:49
  And you and because it's radio, you get to work with amazing
• 49:52
  people because it's only a day usually.
• 49:54
  And people like doing radio and it's fairly egalitarian, you
• 49:59
  know, everyone sort of mucks in together.
• 50:00
  So I've worked with some amazing actors on radio.
• 50:04
  I'm, you know, I'm a child of television.
• 50:05
  I was glued to telly as a kid. I love telly and I've also done
• 50:10
  a lot of theater. I mean I I wouldn't my aim was
• 50:13
  to be a Shakespearean actor really that was my my big goal
• 50:19
  and I've and I you know I theater now is so difficult
• 50:22
  because it's you know it's it's such a big commitment now that I
• 50:28
  don't know if I could do a job that was that was miles away.
• 50:30
  But I'll always think about it if it's Shakespeare because I
• 50:34
  love doing it but but telly telly is the is the one where I
• 50:42
  I feel I've kind of underperformed in terms of I I I
• 50:50
  think I think my I I I wish I'd done done more it feels it feels
• 50:57
  good at the moment though I because I this first six months
• 50:59
  of this year I think I had one self tape and was thinking oh
• 51:03
  God you know I've never this is terrible I'm lot and I've had
• 51:07
  like 10 in the past two weeks which is extraordinary So you
• 51:11
  suddenly go oh is it that I did a round of e-mail and casting
• 51:14
  directors that I haven't done for six months because you think
• 51:16
  you're you're the center of the universe you know what I mean
• 51:19
  you think you know they cast that why didn't why didn't they
• 51:22
  ask me do they hate me what what's probably is is that they
• 51:26
  forgot because this shit loads of actors mate and you need to
• 51:30
  keep reminding people of what you do and it's a constant
• 51:34
  networking is wrong but you you know you again I think everyone
• 51:37
  thinks they're the center of the universe.
• 51:39
  Everyone thinks that especially in this profession, which is
• 51:41
  based on rejection, it's a horrible in that way.
• 51:44
  It's it really is a a dysfunctional relationship.
• 51:46
  It it it makes you feel like shit most of the time.
• 51:50
  And then just as you're thinking of leaving it, it tells you that
• 51:54
  you're pretty and you feel wonderful and it treats you like
• 51:57
  a Princess and then, you know, two weeks later it gives you a
• 52:00
  black eye. You know, it's it's it's
• 52:01
  horrible. Every every actor that I thought
• 52:06
  looked into interviews and autobiographies and things like
• 52:09
  that. It just seems to be like a
• 52:11
  constant stream of rejection. It's it.
• 52:14
  It is. But you know what?
• 52:15
  I I don't mind being in it to win.
• 52:17
  If I don't get any of these self tapes I at least feel like I I
• 52:21
  had a shot and and then you can console yourself because I've
• 52:25
  cast stuff as well. You know people make their minds
• 52:27
  up based on what you look like or they're actually already
• 52:30
  going to work with somebody that they that and it's not nepotism.
• 52:34
  Or if if somebody that they know that they worked with before,
• 52:38
  that they know can do it and stuff is so quick these days
• 52:41
  that if it's a toss up between me and somebody who you've never
• 52:44
  worked with and somebody you've worked with five times that
• 52:47
  turned up on time, did it and didn't screw up and you know
• 52:50
  wasn't rude to the PA or ever you go, well, I know, I know Jim
• 52:53
  can do it. Sorry.
• 52:54
  That Toby bloke, you know, and I've benefited from that and
• 52:56
  I've lost out from that. That's there's no point being
• 52:58
  bitter, bitter about that. And in fact, you know,
• 53:02
  interviewing all those actors from who's right and knowing
• 53:04
  actors again I said there's nothing worse than a bitter
• 53:07
  actor. And again I used to think that
• 53:09
  was quite attractive to be sort of I'm missing out and stuff and
• 53:13
  it's not fair. Oh God, it's so unattractive.
• 53:16
  And and I interviewed actors who I considered had amazing careers
• 53:20
  and they were and a lot and most of them weren't happy.
• 53:23
  Most of them had not got what they'd hoped for or had
• 53:28
  disappointments and I thought that was terribly sad because I
• 53:31
  was going but you did that and you were in that.
• 53:34
  And 1st the lesson is it's not the happiness you seek is not
• 53:41
  there. I think if you're an actor you
• 53:44
  think if I get that job that will that will make me happy,
• 53:49
  that will open the doors, that will change my life.
• 53:51
  Well, when I've already said I don't think it's it has that
• 53:54
  sort of momentum where one thing leads to another.
• 53:55
  It's all series of accidents and things.
• 53:57
  But also I think a lot of actors are looking for happiness and
• 54:00
  they think, well, if if I if I'm working and in that thing,
• 54:03
  people will take me seriously, people will respect me and and I
• 54:07
  will feel happy. Well, I know actors who've had
• 54:10
  Whitney Houston died strung out in a bath.
• 54:13
  Do you know what I mean? She had the talent and she had
• 54:15
  the opportunity. She had every the happiness was
• 54:17
  not to be found, that to be found somewhere else so.
• 54:22
  To Robin Williams? Yeah, exactly.
• 54:25
  All career and look. Look how that ended.
• 54:27
  Although actually I would argue that part of the incredibleness
• 54:30
  of his career was that his his psychological makeup that made
• 54:34
  him such a brilliant comic was also what what plagued him.
• 54:40
  But I think there were less remarkable people who who who
• 54:45
  who who remain sort of unhappy with with their lot.
• 54:48
  And I determined a while ago not to be a bitter act.
• 54:52
  Even though I've had massive professional disappointments and
• 54:55
  loads of things that I'd love to have done that I've not had the
• 54:57
  chance to do. I don't want to be the only
• 55:01
  person who can taste bitterness is you.
• 55:04
  You know what I mean? And and and I don't want to be
• 55:08
  that guy. So no, I'm talking a good game.
• 55:10
  Because that doesn't mean that I don't sit at home and get sad
• 55:12
  about things that I've missed out on or or not even got close
• 55:15
  to or anything like that. But I made you make a deal with
• 55:19
  yourself to do this living, which is based on rejection.
• 55:25
  And I think you always, you always fixate on the ones that
• 55:28
  you haven't got as opposed to the ones that you have.
• 55:31
  I'm sure I've got friends who I'm I'm, I'm, I'm meeting up
• 55:35
  with a few friends of mine from university in December.
• 55:37
  When one of them's over in this country, I'm the only one who's
• 55:40
  active, who's still doing it. And they were all great, you
• 55:43
  know. And so you sort of think, Oh
• 55:44
  well hang on and they'll probably be going, God, Toby,
• 55:47
  it's going great for you, isn't it?
• 55:48
  I'm going, no I I didn't. I've self take the first six
• 55:51
  months of 2023, you know, whatever, because you always
• 55:54
  fixate on the stuff that you don't get.
• 55:56
  And I and as I say, you always take it very personally.
• 55:58
  Why when they made that episode of Casualty that was directed by
• 56:01
  that guy I know and written by that guy I know, Why didn't they
• 56:04
  think of me? Well, because not everybody's
• 56:07
  always thinking of you. You're always thinking of you in
• 56:09
  the same way that when I did that radio series about months
• 56:12
  later, I thought, oh shit, why didn't I think of so and so for
• 56:15
  that they'd have been perfect. Why didn't I?
• 56:16
  Because that afternoon I didn't. Not because I think they're
• 56:20
  terrible. Not because I hate them.
• 56:21
  All the things that I think when I'm not, they think I'm
• 56:24
  terrible. They hate me.
• 56:25
  They might just not have thought of me.
• 56:26
  Now, inevitably there will be some who will think of me and
• 56:29
  will think, no, he's shit or we don't like him, or we don't
• 56:31
  think you know or we know. But most of the time, it's
• 56:34
  probably that they just just occur to them because you're not
• 56:38
  the center of the universe. What's the carrot then?
• 56:40
  Why do people put themselves? Through this, because there's
• 56:43
  always hope, that's the thing. Because I could still play full
• 56:48
  stuff. I could still play Leah.
• 56:50
  I could still get cast in that part in that series that might
• 56:57
  open other doors. And I've been.
• 57:00
  I've been close to some stuff that might have been life
• 57:03
  changing, but the difference between life changing and fuck
• 57:07
  all is a very, very thin line. And I might have been up for
• 57:10
  that life changing thing with four other people and #5 got it.
• 57:16
  But you'll never hear of numbers 1/4.
• 57:18
  I remember telling my brother when I when my uncle, who's
• 57:21
  about Chris Matthews, who's the radar technician from the 10th
• 57:24
  planet, I was talking to him and he was, he was runner up to
• 57:28
  Simon Ward for the title role in young Winston and didn't get it,
• 57:33
  and was now playing the Duke of Aragon at Ludlow Castle that,
• 57:36
  you know, 30 years later, nobody's ever heard of him and
• 57:38
  he's had a he's had a long career and he's never stopped
• 57:40
  working, but he didn't have that job that made him, you know.
• 57:44
  But then again, Simon Ward was very famous for a bit.
• 57:47
  But by the end of his career, a lot of people when he died would
• 57:50
  have gone oh, who? Because that's the other thing
• 57:52
  is there have been people that have come and gone in this
• 57:55
  business. I remember being very jealous of
• 57:57
  a comic called Jenny Ross who started around the same I time I
• 58:01
  did got loads of buzz I was a better comic than she was but
• 58:05
  but she was a gobby young woman she she she fitted a particular
• 58:09
  demographic she was very Manchester you know she was
• 58:13
  north and certainly and and and and had the voice of the time
• 58:17
  she did thing called the Sunday show and all that.
• 58:18
  So they we came up at pretty much the same time.
• 58:20
  Remember we did a competition and it was and and it had
• 58:25
  already been decided. They interviewed her beforehand
• 58:28
  this BBC new company thing. They interviewed her before we'd
• 58:31
  even done it and and they said oh it's because she's the
• 58:33
  youngest and I was like, I'm actually younger than she is.
• 58:36
  And it was all it had all been sort of predetermined and I was
• 58:39
  so furious. Well, she her star Sean
• 58:44
  Brightly. And that now she and she
• 58:48
  disappeared. She doesn't do it anymore.
• 58:50
  So what? It's not a race or a competition
• 58:52
  too. You should never compare
• 58:53
  yourself to anybody anyway, because we're different people.
• 58:55
  It wasn't that. It was what she she was what
• 58:58
  they wanted. I wasn't.
• 58:59
  Well, it's a buyer's market. If they don't want to buy what
• 59:02
  you're selling, there's no point getting pissed off about that.
• 59:04
  Somebody wants a three bedroom house and you're a bungalow.
• 59:08
  Well, they're never going to buy you, are you?
• 59:10
  And you can't. You can't get annoyed with
• 59:11
  somebody that's got stairs if you if you haven't got stairs.
• 59:16
  That's a terrible metaphor. It's like you said earlier,
• 59:18
  you've been on the other side of this point where you are casting
• 59:21
  as well. So you've been making those
• 59:22
  decisions too. Yeah.
• 59:24
  Well, only because the radio producers who've produced my
• 59:27
  stuff know that I love it and have been very kind to sort of
• 59:30
  include me on it and. And I've been able to, Yeah.
• 59:33
  So I've been included as part of the process because radios are
• 59:37
  much smaller game. But yes there's there's
• 59:39
  definitely that. But also I think, I think
• 59:41
  there's something to be said for for not having been very huge,
• 59:47
  particularly successful. But is that I've sort of kept
• 59:52
  going and kept, you know, I'm at a proper job for 20 years.
• 59:54
  That's I I actually, I don't see there's anything wrong with
• 59:57
  having a proper job and I've got active friends who who do do
• 1:00:00
  other jobs to pay the bills and that's right and honorable and
• 1:00:04
  decent and there's nothing. There's nothing to to to
• 1:00:08
  denigrate about that, but I I see it as an achievement for me
• 1:00:11
  that I've I've not had to do anything that I don't
• 1:00:15
  particularly enjoy doing. You haven't had to sell your
• 1:00:18
  soul. Well done, yeah.
• 1:00:20
  You know, and as somebody that was told I'd never been, you
• 1:00:23
  know, the people from where I came from and from my background
• 1:00:26
  would never be an actor. The fact that I've been a
• 1:00:28
  professional selfemployed performer and nothing else for
• 1:00:33
  25 years is, is is something that I think about when I am not
• 1:00:38
  a self take for six months. And when I'm I'm you know that I
• 1:00:43
  don't get seen for that job and when that person doesn't answer
• 1:00:46
  the phone or and all those sorts of things because you kind of
• 1:00:48
  need that. But as I say what I what I what
• 1:00:53
  one mustn't be is is is is bitter or angry because it's a
• 1:01:00
  waste of energy. Actually that's not to say that
• 1:01:04
  doesn't take an effort of the will and I don't have times when
• 1:01:08
  I get really down and and I Yeah and I and I feel you know it's
• 1:01:13
  all I feel sort of either you know as I say regretful or
• 1:01:17
  overlooked or whatever but but you know show me, show me
• 1:01:21
  somebody in my profession who doesn't.
• 1:01:23
  And the other thing is, I've known people who've been very,
• 1:01:25
  very successful who who, who are pray to exactly the same, you
• 1:01:33
  know, and I don't think you ever lose it.
• 1:01:37
  I mean, I know actors who've got nothing to complain about, who
• 1:01:42
  complain all the fucking time because you only know what you
• 1:01:47
  know. You've only got the experience
• 1:01:49
  that you've got. And if.
• 1:01:51
  You're relative to the person, isn't it?
• 1:01:53
  Absolutely, absolutely. Well.
• 1:01:55
  I've I've got one last question around acting in comedy and then
• 1:02:00
  I've got a few listener questions.
• 1:02:03
  If you will indulge me, and this is going to be almost an
• 1:02:07
  impossible question for you to answer because the the knowledge
• 1:02:11
  and the the respect for acting that you have in your head is
• 1:02:16
  vast. But I want you to tell me one,
• 1:02:21
  one, just one actor that truly inspires you.
• 1:02:27
  So that's that's dead or alive. Well my favorite actor was
• 1:02:33
  always as a kid was always Ian Home, who I thought was a a
• 1:02:38
  ridiculously good actor. But but I I mean my actors of
• 1:02:43
  choice when I was a kid were Ian Home.
• 1:02:46
  David Warner, Brian Cox, Michael Gambon.
• 1:02:49
  They were my my sort of non Doctor Who actors that I can Oh
• 1:02:53
  and David Bradley, because I used to see him at the Royal
• 1:02:55
  Shakespeare Company quite a lot and he he had the sort of career
• 1:02:58
  that I coveted. He was the kind of, you know the
• 1:03:04
  he would play Gloucester or he would play Polonius or he.
• 1:03:06
  So he wasn't the the lead but he always had the good character
• 1:03:09
  part and he's a chameleon Bradley and he's a brilliant
• 1:03:12
  Shakespearean actor. This before anybody knew him
• 1:03:14
  from doc Two and stuff. Well, I was delighted first when
• 1:03:18
  he got our friends in the North, which he has a really which was
• 1:03:20
  this which was the first telly which when he was quite an older
• 1:03:24
  man that that he really sort of broke through in having been
• 1:03:27
  this you know, great great theater actor, theater character
• 1:03:31
  actor. So I was very pleased when he
• 1:03:32
  had that sort of breakout in our Friends in the North and it just
• 1:03:35
  seemed inevitable. I don't know.
• 1:03:37
  I always think the universe, you always think the universe
• 1:03:39
  revolves around you and Doc two. So it just seemed inevitable
• 1:03:41
  he'd end up with Doctor. He's a lovely bloke.
• 1:03:43
  I've had the pleasure. Oh, of course I work with him
• 1:03:44
  on. I was in it.
• 1:03:46
  Shit, I was in that. Yeah.
• 1:03:47
  And I forget and but but I liked those, those sorts of actors.
• 1:03:54
  I loved Warner because he could do so much without seeming to do
• 1:03:59
  anything. I've always admired that where
• 1:04:02
  it comes from within and I and I think that's magic.
• 1:04:07
  You know he's not. He doesn't have to pull a face
• 1:04:09
  to convey, you know, aching melancholy or or you know, cold
• 1:04:15
  psychosis or whatever. And I always admired the power
• 1:04:18
  of both Gambon and and Cox. But home, I just thought was
• 1:04:25
  became his character so completely and had such a a a
• 1:04:30
  subtle intensity. If you can, if that's not a if,
• 1:04:33
  that's not a contradiction in terms.
• 1:04:35
  And then I read his autobiography and and found him
• 1:04:37
  such a disappointing man and it was all and he sort of admits it
• 1:04:42
  emits it himself in the book. He kind of go you know he's he
• 1:04:46
  he was quite an empty selfish person who sort of poured
• 1:04:51
  himself into his roles and into his work and and that was an
• 1:04:55
  example of sort of going I I wish I'd not actually read that
• 1:04:58
  because I Ian Home. The actor I think was probably
• 1:05:03
  more interesting than Ian Home. The man is certainly I think
• 1:05:08
  more likeable into yeah he odd but but sometimes people but you
• 1:05:13
  get that with comedians sometimes as well when people
• 1:05:15
  are magic on stage and actually quite unimpressive off it and
• 1:05:19
  that's that's where you know you can have technique and you can
• 1:05:23
  have ability but but the but the the, the the real greatness of
• 1:05:27
  any of any really memorable performances is a kind of
• 1:05:30
  alchemy and a kind of and a kind of magic and that's why I admire
• 1:05:33
  it so because you can't replicate it you know.
• 1:05:38
  So Ian Home I think, is probably my favorite actor of all time.
• 1:05:42
  Ian Home play Jack the Ripper in the Johnny Depp film.
• 1:05:48
  Yeah, the Jack the Ripper film. Did you watch that from Hell?
• 1:05:51
  Yeah. Is, is it him?
• 1:05:55
  In the end, I think he I. Think it is.
• 1:05:57
  And he absolutely. As a child he terrified me in
• 1:06:00
  that I've gone back and revisited recently.
• 1:06:02
  It's actually a terrible film now.
• 1:06:04
  Yeah, well yeah, cuz I I started watching that film, quite a lot
• 1:06:07
  of hope and and ended up actually getting a bit and I was
• 1:06:10
  drinking at the time as well. So I don't think I've even seen
• 1:06:12
  it properly. So I can't remember.
• 1:06:15
  He was responsible for many a nightmare when I was a young
• 1:06:18
  man. That's what I'll say.
• 1:06:20
  OK, so I've got some questions here.
• 1:06:24
  Some are sort of Doctor Who based, others are about your
• 1:06:28
  career. So I'll start off with Rod who
• 1:06:31
  who asks. This is quite a biggie as well.
• 1:06:33
  Who does Toby thinks gets the best guest performance in Doctor
• 1:06:38
  Who in the Sixties, 70s and 80s, and why?
• 1:06:43
  So I think he's asking for one from each.
• 1:06:45
  Yeah. OK.
• 1:06:46
  That's a very good question. And you can't say burner Kay,
• 1:06:50
  Burner Kay and burner Kay, well, well, he's not in the 80s sadly.
• 1:06:57
  I I do think Bernard Kay's performance of Saladin is is a
• 1:07:02
  much more interesting one. I think Julian Glover is
• 1:07:04
  greatest Richard the Lionheart, and I think Jean Marsh is
• 1:07:07
  greatest as as Joanna. But I actually think Bernard
• 1:07:11
  gives the more interesting portrayal he's.
• 1:07:14
  I think his performance of Saladin is is super but I I I I
• 1:07:18
  actually think and I and I wish I could I wish I could pick an
• 1:07:22
  actor that is known outside of Doctor Who rather than go Oh no
• 1:07:28
  I'm going to choose the guy who's who's probably most
• 1:07:30
  remarkable things are Doctor but I and and it's a I guess it's a
• 1:07:34
  testament to the fact that Doctor Who allows anybody to
• 1:07:38
  shine. I I think Kevin Stoney gets it
• 1:07:41
  for the the actually the combo of Marvic Chen and and Tobias
• 1:07:45
  Vaughn but he's so good he's and he's so he's so easy to
• 1:07:50
  underestimate I think because he's so obviously good.
• 1:07:53
  But every time that that performance is Mamic and the
• 1:07:56
  amount of little bits that he does like like when he finds a
• 1:08:00
  bit of the set that looks bit like a prison cell and he does
• 1:08:03
  that and and I love it when he says to Zephon, you know a man
• 1:08:07
  such as yourself and he and he turns the line that the word man
• 1:08:10
  into something slightly quizzical it's so and and Vaughn
• 1:08:14
  I think is a brilliant. The hundred ways he can say the
• 1:08:19
  word Packer. Yeah, but then he's also got a
• 1:08:22
  real viciousness as well. He's got that incompetent full
• 1:08:26
  Packer. He's, you know he's dangerous.
• 1:08:28
  I think Stoney is super. So I think I would probably,
• 1:08:34
  yeah, I would probably take him. I I think I like Robert James as
• 1:08:38
  Lesterson in in Power of the Daleks as well.
• 1:08:41
  I was loads of great performances but I think Stoney
• 1:08:44
  for the 60s, for the 70s, well again.
• 1:08:54
  It's it's basically gonna be who comes to mind first because
• 1:08:57
  you'll probably go away and be like, oh why didn't I say dot
• 1:09:00
  dot dot? But I again, I think we can take
• 1:09:02
  people for granted because they're such obviously important
• 1:09:07
  figures. But I think Michael wishes
• 1:09:08
  performance as Davros is remarkable.
• 1:09:11
  I think there are brilliant performances like Tony Beckley
• 1:09:13
  as Harrison Chase and in fact everyone in Seeds of Doom.
• 1:09:16
  I love Mark Jones, Arnold Keeler.
• 1:09:17
  I think he does so much more with that part than there is on
• 1:09:20
  paper. And I think that's a that's
• 1:09:22
  that's one of the best performances in all of Doctor
• 1:09:24
  Who actually. But but what we should does with
• 1:09:26
  Davros is he creates something unique.
• 1:09:29
  He's a synthesis of man and Dalek, and he rationalizes the
• 1:09:33
  two and and talks in a way that nobody talks, but it's entirely
• 1:09:37
  consistent with within the performance and it's totally
• 1:09:41
  believable. And even though he's stuck
• 1:09:42
  behind a sort of wise in the mask and you can't see his eyes,
• 1:09:46
  so he's only got his voice as well.
• 1:09:48
  It has intensity. It's believable.
• 1:09:50
  You don't really think you're watching a man in a mask and
• 1:09:53
  he's, you know, he has guile. He has you know he he thinks
• 1:09:59
  he's perfectly reasonable as well.
• 1:10:01
  It's seeing as it could have been a monster performance I
• 1:10:04
  think. I think it's, I think wish is
• 1:10:06
  remarkable, I think he's great, so I will say.
• 1:10:09
  Where it's It's a completely silent scene apart from gunfire.
• 1:10:16
  Out in the corridor and the camera saw swings around the
• 1:10:19
  bunker and Davros is just there on his own in the half dark,
• 1:10:22
  just tapping his hand. So competitive and he's not
• 1:10:27
  saying a word. No, it's great.
• 1:10:29
  And a word for Peter Miles as well, who I think is excellent
• 1:10:31
  as neither. I mean it's yeah.
• 1:10:33
  So yeah, I think, I think Michael Wisher.
• 1:10:37
  I'll say that that is the most quoted line on this podcast is.
• 1:10:41
  Thank you. That's what I wanted to know.
• 1:10:45
  Yes. Oh, but also because it's so
• 1:10:49
  underrated and it always gets overlooked.
• 1:10:52
  Well one I love William Marla as as William Marla is Mailer in
• 1:10:57
  mind of evil but his his predecessor William Dysart is
• 1:11:02
  Regan. I think in Ambassador's death is
• 1:11:04
  is one of the the unnecessarily under talked about Doctor Who
• 1:11:10
  villains. I think he's absolutely
• 1:11:12
  magnificent. So, but no, I think wish, I
• 1:11:15
  think wish is remarkable. Such an interesting thing to
• 1:11:19
  explore because there are so many left field casting choices.
• 1:11:24
  Some that work like and Busters and others which tone Yeah it's
• 1:11:30
  a tricky one that I mean. I mean I think the best cast
• 1:11:33
  ever assembled to talk to is is ghost like which I think is top
• 1:11:36
  to bottom extraordinary and for show that's on its last legs.
• 1:11:39
  My goodness me they you know they shows there's a life in the
• 1:11:43
  old dog yet but in terms of a standout performances Oh well I
• 1:11:53
  mean Simon Rouse in in in the is is is one of the best
• 1:11:59
  performances in the in the show's history it's it's and
• 1:12:03
  actually I think there is Hughes is is with with much less
• 1:12:09
  pyrotechnic material actually does wonders with with that with
• 1:12:14
  that part is is absolutely no perfect and a very sexy
• 1:12:18
  scientist. She's always to me.
• 1:12:19
  She's always the one that got away, you know?
• 1:12:21
  Yeah, yeah. Get in that target and slam the
• 1:12:23
  door in the face. The others, she's great.
• 1:12:28
  And and I I do love William Gaunt in in Revelation and Clive
• 1:12:34
  Swift in Revelation. I think they're both excellent.
• 1:12:39
  I was watching Snake Dance this week and I was like, they're all
• 1:12:46
  they're all fantastic. I love John Carson in that
• 1:12:49
  again. He's a he's he's one that people
• 1:12:51
  don't talk about enough because I think maybe Martin Clunes
• 1:12:54
  grabs the headlines but they're again that's.
• 1:12:56
  I mean that's a faultless cast they're at there.
• 1:12:59
  Oh she's brilliant. They're.
• 1:13:00
  All super. That very small yawn she gives.
• 1:13:05
  They're all so good. They're all so good.
• 1:13:08
  Everyone's good in in state dance.
• 1:13:10
  It's a it's a beautiful cast. But I think, I think, I think
• 1:13:14
  I'd go for Simon Rouse in the 80s.
• 1:13:16
  I think he's, I think he's terrific.
• 1:13:19
  Thank you, Daniel, Wrongsley asks.
• 1:13:22
  Toby has been very honest and open about having doubts and
• 1:13:26
  second guessing himself during his career.
• 1:13:28
  Does he feel this has changed and evolved over time?
• 1:13:31
  Or is it a question of having good days and bad days?
• 1:13:38
  I wish. I I wish I could outrun the
• 1:13:39
  demons. No.
• 1:13:43
  And I think the reason I'm always doing stuff, people go,
• 1:13:45
  oh, you're so busy. It's because if I I'd worry if I
• 1:13:49
  stopped it, but it would all stop.
• 1:13:51
  And I've always had to generate my own stuff.
• 1:13:54
  I mean, I wish I didn't have to. You know, I I I when when I had,
• 1:13:59
  when I was going into Curry every day and you know scripts
• 1:14:02
  were landing on my doorstep and I just had to learn the lines
• 1:14:05
  and go in and do it. I was as happy as I've ever been
• 1:14:08
  you know because because I wasn't having to do all the
• 1:14:11
  other stuff. You know with the comedy night I
• 1:14:12
  have to have an eye on everything else.
• 1:14:14
  With the podcasts I do it all. You know with you know the radio
• 1:14:17
  stuff that I've done I've usually written it and been in
• 1:14:20
  it as well. So then you've got an eye on
• 1:14:21
  casting and everything else. You know I I I am not a control
• 1:14:25
  freak. I would if you know sign me up
• 1:14:29
  for a seven seasons of something just to you know play a play a
• 1:14:33
  regular part and and I will. I will mow the lawn.
• 1:14:36
  I will make a lasagna. I will alphabetter size my CD's
• 1:14:41
  and I will wait for those scripts to set up go and do my
• 1:14:44
  bit be nice to everybody and come home.
• 1:14:47
  But I've always been played by I mean I don't I I mean I it's I
• 1:14:53
  give myself quite a hard time. I I I'll never be as good as I
• 1:14:56
  want to be but I don't mind that because I I don't like I I I
• 1:15:03
  it's not that I don't like I I react I have an aversion to
• 1:15:06
  overconfidence in people I admire it in some way.
• 1:15:09
  I you know I admire people who are certain of their talent and
• 1:15:13
  you know you know absolutely sort of go out and swagger I
• 1:15:17
  wish but but but but there's also a lot of people whose whose
• 1:15:21
  whose arrogance is is diminishing of others and and
• 1:15:24
  and unkind and and draining and but I think it's also that
• 1:15:29
  because it's not a skill of mine to be self confident in public
• 1:15:32
  and I'm sure a lot of people who seem self confident in public
• 1:15:35
  are actually dying inside. That's what we forget sometimes
• 1:15:38
  when we when we react badly to people you go there's a there's
• 1:15:42
  a comic on the circuit actually a lot of people don't like they
• 1:15:44
  go oh he's he's gruff and he's arrogant and you know I I
• 1:15:47
  actually think he's vulnerable and doesn't know how to express
• 1:15:50
  himself and you have to I think you have to sometimes try and
• 1:15:54
  see that. You know we're all just trying
• 1:15:56
  to get through study life do you know what I mean And we we all
• 1:15:59
  have ways doing and also you don't know when that person's
• 1:16:02
  been like that that they haven't gone home and gone oh God I was
• 1:16:05
  a brick last night. You know you don't see you don't
• 1:16:07
  see behind the curtain. So I always try and be forgiving
• 1:16:10
  of people, but I, I, I, I. What was the question of I've,
• 1:16:17
  I've, I've. Self that case of good days and
• 1:16:19
  bad days. Yeah, I mean, I yeah, I mean
• 1:16:30
  it's I'm trying to get better at not.
• 1:16:38
  It's very easy to fixate on the past and think about things you
• 1:16:41
  should have done differently. It's very easy to think about
• 1:16:44
  the future and going, oh, if only this will happen and then
• 1:16:47
  this and then this will then this.
• 1:16:48
  And I spent a lot of time doing that.
• 1:16:50
  I got really close to a well. No, I thought I got really good.
• 1:16:53
  I had a an audition a couple of weeks ago for a series regular
• 1:16:57
  in something really good series, Really good part.
• 1:17:00
  I know a few of the people involved, and I did this
• 1:17:04
  audition with the casting director who I'd never
• 1:17:08
  auditioned for before. Which I felt was a bit of a
• 1:17:11
  because it's somebody who casts a lot of comedy stuff and it's
• 1:17:12
  like, well, hello. And anyway, it's through the
• 1:17:15
  door and it couldn't have gone better.
• 1:17:17
  I've got no notes. She said that's brilliant.
• 1:17:18
  Let's just do it one more time for that.
• 1:17:20
  Brilliant, Fantastic. I thought, well, that's great.
• 1:17:23
  She said we'll let you know in a couple of days, but there's
• 1:17:25
  about to be something for you in this.
• 1:17:27
  Even if it's not this, then of course, do you mean it's not
• 1:17:29
  yet. But then I was like, no, no,
• 1:17:30
  wait, Well, she didn't have any. It's great, great, great.
• 1:17:33
  Two days go by, three days go by.
• 1:17:36
  So I think, well, do I temp fate now and ring my agent and go,
• 1:17:39
  Because then if I ring her, that might ruin it, you know, because
• 1:17:41
  you think, well, if I don't ring her that you know, you suddenly
• 1:17:43
  think if I don't think about it, that means I will get the part
• 1:17:46
  if I do think about it. And of course none of that,
• 1:17:48
  she's always going to, that doesn't actually do anything.
• 1:17:51
  It's like when I blame myself on.
• 1:17:52
  The Scorpion, when I turn on the radio and we're doing well in
• 1:17:56
  the cricket, the minute I turn on the radio we lose a wicket.
• 1:17:58
  It's entirely my fault. The olds collapse and fight.
• 1:18:02
  Absolutely. And and I've and finally I I
• 1:18:07
  might touch my agent a week later and said I thought that
• 1:18:09
  had gone really well. But you know I'm sure they're
• 1:18:14
  starting filming around about now.
• 1:18:15
  So she got in touch with them and she said actually, no they
• 1:18:17
  haven't cast it yet. Oh great.
• 1:18:19
  But she said but they've done a short list and you're not on it
• 1:18:23
  and you went for going oh I thought I was pretty close and
• 1:18:28
  maybe they'd cast it and I hadn't got it.
• 1:18:30
  Not the Oh no they're still casting it but you're already
• 1:18:32
  active the running. I mean it was worse upon worse
• 1:18:34
  upon worse. And I I tend to sort of, I think
• 1:18:37
  the worst anyway, I and I was trying to do that thing of
• 1:18:40
  going, no, no, behave like it's happening.
• 1:18:42
  And Shez's always ask the universe and it will, you know,
• 1:18:45
  it's like, you know if you if you imagine something positive,
• 1:18:48
  you will make it happen. And if you are a pessimistic
• 1:18:51
  person, which I've always been, that's why you don't get the
• 1:18:53
  things because you give off negative vibes.
• 1:18:55
  So I was trying to do it properly and do all the positive
• 1:18:57
  things. So for that week I was in it, I,
• 1:19:00
  you know, I just had to do it. And then we'd be at the Baftas
• 1:19:03
  and then we'd be and and and then people casting directors
• 1:19:06
  you may not have seen before go, Oh no, Right, okay, brilliant.
• 1:19:09
  And it would open all these doors and suddenly I wouldn't
• 1:19:12
  just be the Doctor Who guy. Suddenly I wouldn't just be the
• 1:19:14
  funny guy. Suddenly this that the other and
• 1:19:17
  I went from all of that to being Oh no, it's just, yeah, just you
• 1:19:21
  still again. And I thought and I've done all
• 1:19:25
  the things that I don't normally do in order to and it's still
• 1:19:28
  because of course you're not in control of it.
• 1:19:29
  That's the problem, isn't it? You're not in control.
• 1:19:33
  And I and I and I, you know I had a week of feeling bereft
• 1:19:38
  because I was there. I was in it.
• 1:19:41
  I was. It's a great show.
• 1:19:42
  It was great part. And I've done a good job.
• 1:19:46
  I know I've done a good job. They don't lie to you but
• 1:19:49
  obviously they then see people afterwards who fit it more or
• 1:19:52
  better or what this whatever and and and I I you know.
• 1:20:01
  So the reason I I I'm always doing stuff is because if I'm
• 1:20:05
  left to myself those doubts it's it's a weird thing because
• 1:20:09
  you've got to think you're good otherwise you wouldn't do it.
• 1:20:13
  But I think I I think. I hope I'm good.
• 1:20:18
  And that's why you keep doing it, is to try and prove that
• 1:20:22
  you're good. And if people laugh, and if
• 1:20:24
  people employ you, that means that your hope that you're good
• 1:20:28
  is true. But of course that if people
• 1:20:31
  don't employ you and and and the key is the key to sanity and I
• 1:20:36
  haven't learned this myself yet is that you've only got to be
• 1:20:40
  good enough for you. But I'm still I'm still trained
• 1:20:44
  to seek seek the approval of others for various reasons that
• 1:20:47
  go right back to my childhood and and I know that's not good
• 1:20:51
  and I know that's not I know that's not healthy and that's
• 1:20:54
  not helpful. But it's really hard not to get
• 1:20:57
  your sense of self worth through the approval of other people.
• 1:21:01
  Which is why one tells jokes, which is why one puts podcasts
• 1:21:04
  out there, Which is why one tries to be in a profession
• 1:21:07
  where people will use will hopefully harness your talent if
• 1:21:11
  you have any. And if people are using that
• 1:21:13
  talent in a, in a in a profession that has a lot of
• 1:21:15
  competition, that makes you go, Oh no, I am good because that
• 1:21:18
  person has said so. Whereas I think sanity comes
• 1:21:21
  when you go, well, no, I'm good enough for me and let's hope
• 1:21:25
  that other people think that. And if they don't, it's actually
• 1:21:27
  Kevin McNally who we talked about before.
• 1:21:30
  He he was talking when I when I interviewed him for Who's Red?
• 1:21:33
  He was talking about getting nervous talking on stage and
• 1:21:35
  then he said actually, then I said to myself, no, they're
• 1:21:38
  fucking lucky to have me. And he wasn't being arrogant
• 1:21:41
  when he said that and he's not. He's not an arrogant man at all,
• 1:21:43
  Kevin, but he isn't very selfpossessed an an amount of.
• 1:21:48
  He's a confident man, but you can be confident without being
• 1:21:51
  arrogant. You can be happy with your own
• 1:21:54
  abilities without being cocky. And he's, he's he's that.
• 1:21:57
  I'd love to be like that but I don't.
• 1:22:00
  But no, I, I, I, I there are. There are times when I think I'm
• 1:22:05
  the best actor for every job. And then when I put that to the
• 1:22:10
  test or put myself out there, I sometimes think I'm a charlatan
• 1:22:14
  and I've just been getting away with it.
• 1:22:15
  I'm rubbish and I've got no talent at all.
• 1:22:17
  And you can think both of those things and it's just juggling
• 1:22:21
  that. It's just juggling that that
• 1:22:24
  those those ups and downs. Wonder sometimes if you don't
• 1:22:29
  have the greatest antidote to all of this.
• 1:22:34
  And that's not to denigrate anything that you're saying, but
• 1:22:36
  I've actually. Heard on your podcast you detail
• 1:22:41
  a particularly shitty week where there's been rejections and
• 1:22:46
  things like that. And then you put in episode one
• 1:22:49
  of the Time Warrior and had a wonderful time with it.
• 1:22:52
  And actually you've got away from that day quite, Chief.
• 1:22:55
  And I'm not saying Doctor Who is the answer to everyone's
• 1:22:58
  problems, but there is something there, you know, definitely.
• 1:23:04
  It's definitely the answer to to to to mine, yeah.
• 1:23:08
  It takes me to my happy place. I think it takes a lot of people
• 1:23:12
  to that happy place, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with
• 1:23:15
  that. We all have our things that we
• 1:23:18
  hide in. And you know I've my God, I mean
• 1:23:23
  I've sought oblivion by other means.
• 1:23:25
  And Doctor Who's much healthier. So you know.
• 1:23:30
  Yeah. And Doctor Who generally does.
• 1:23:33
  I'm not just watching it sometimes.
• 1:23:35
  You know. I love those sort of deep dives
• 1:23:36
  of the research and the archaeology.
• 1:23:38
  That's why I have a slightly curious relationship with my
• 1:23:40
  Doctor Who fandom. It's because I never set out to
• 1:23:43
  be a professional Doctor Who fan.
• 1:23:46
  I even bulk at that. I don't like that it's my hobby
• 1:23:51
  and I really enjoy it. But I but but I've I've part of
• 1:23:56
  my expression of my hobby has been in a performative way
• 1:23:59
  because I'm a performer and so so my worlds have sort of
• 1:24:03
  entwined. But you know is is is my
• 1:24:08
  ambition to be a talking head on the top 50 Doctor Who moments or
• 1:24:13
  is it to play full staff at the role of Shakespeare Company.
• 1:24:16
  Well, no competition makes, you know, to me.
• 1:24:20
  But in the same breath. There is, there is a very
• 1:24:24
  positive like you like me, you have a direct contact with your
• 1:24:29
  audience with podcasting. And you know I, I I'm, I'm a
• 1:24:32
  patron of happy times and places and you know I see the
• 1:24:36
  engagement that you get there and I see that people are loving
• 1:24:39
  what you're putting out and that certainly can't hurt your day.
• 1:24:44
  No. And and and and as I because I
• 1:24:47
  started it during lockdown as well and we've been doing the
• 1:24:49
  comedy club during lockdown now I am proud of that because we
• 1:24:53
  didn't we didn't get any credit for this whatsoever.
• 1:24:55
  My comedy club didn't have a Tuesday off during the plague.
• 1:25:00
  We we we put some we we put just a link to some YouTube clips of
• 1:25:04
  the performers who should have been on on the Tuesday.
• 1:25:06
  I think the lockdown started on a Tuesday or Monday night and we
• 1:25:09
  did that and then from thereafter we we did online
• 1:25:13
  shows. We we paid 4 comics every week
• 1:25:17
  money. So we we funded people.
• 1:25:19
  We supported the arts. We paid people, but we also
• 1:25:24
  reached out across the world and did shows and people were
• 1:25:27
  watching from all over the world and sort of provided a little
• 1:25:30
  community for people. And I was really, really proud
• 1:25:33
  of that. So having realized you could do
• 1:25:34
  that with comedy and then Emily Cook did a brilliant tweet
• 1:25:37
  along. She she should be.
• 1:25:40
  Yeah. Her her OBE is long overdue.
• 1:25:44
  I realized that you know Doctor Who found him had had that
• 1:25:46
  element to it as well. So part of the thing about doing
• 1:25:49
  the podcasts was a was a desire I think to to sort of bring, you
• 1:25:54
  know, provide something that that that gave people some sort
• 1:25:57
  of comfort in the way that not me but Doctor Who can.
• 1:26:01
  And then it's, you know, that it's carried on since then.
• 1:26:03
  And yes, as you say that one of the nice things about the way
• 1:26:06
  the world works and actually the way that the patron in
• 1:26:09
  particular works is that it's a sort of safe space.
• 1:26:12
  And you go, well, this is where I'm doing this and you're
• 1:26:15
  welcome to come here and if you like, it isn't that lovely.
• 1:26:19
  But if you don't, well, you don't, you know, nobody has to
• 1:26:22
  come. So it's it's lovely in that
• 1:26:24
  regard. And you do get lovely, you know,
• 1:26:26
  interaction and feedback. And that is nice, yes.
• 1:26:31
  And I'm gonna move on to John Bensalia's question, who I
• 1:26:35
  believe you've heard recently on my Pyramids of Mars commentary.
• 1:26:38
  I was jogging away to Pyramids of Mars yesterday.
• 1:26:43
  Hey, the feature on Resurrection of the Daleks DVD is
• 1:26:47
  fascinating, in which Toby interviews 5 actors.
• 1:26:51
  With Del Heny, there's a rather sad air about him.
• 1:26:54
  So my question is this, Which of the actors actresses surprised
• 1:26:59
  you for good or bad when being interviewed and why?
• 1:27:02
  Do you know what? That Del Heny thing haunted me
• 1:27:05
  for a very long. It's so sad, isn't it?
• 1:27:08
  Yeah, I felt a bit of a responsibility because when Ed
• 1:27:13
  did the first edit of that, he left all that out.
• 1:27:17
  He because I threw in that last question just as a last question
• 1:27:21
  it was the first interview we did actually it's not it's not
• 1:27:23
  in that order on the thing I didn't think and actually I I
• 1:27:28
  didn't ask him about I think called fallen hero that he's got
• 1:27:30
  an amazing part in that was yeah I I didn't bring enough to the
• 1:27:35
  table there I I I should have had more more in my arsenal to
• 1:27:38
  ask him about actually and he could have perhaps given a
• 1:27:41
  better account of himself but that last question was I knew
• 1:27:45
  he'd won the the what most promising student at rada.
• 1:27:48
  So I thought it's quite a fun question to end on to go, you
• 1:27:50
  know, bring you full circle because I I assumed because
• 1:27:54
  again you forget until you interview because you know when
• 1:27:56
  I was doing Who's Red? I thought, well none of these
• 1:27:57
  people want to be interviewed by me.
• 1:27:58
  They'll all be busy. And of course even some of them
• 1:28:01
  who've had amazing careers are not because acting is not like
• 1:28:05
  that. So I because I'd seen Dell in
• 1:28:08
  stuff like peak practice. He was a semi regular peak
• 1:28:10
  practice. So I thought, oh, he's working
• 1:28:12
  all the time because peak practice had been like 10 years
• 1:28:14
  before and semi regular might have meant, you know three days
• 1:28:19
  filming in a year. But just, you know.
• 1:28:21
  And so I asked that question and and I kindness.
• 1:28:25
  Oh God, no, I haven't earned a living.
• 1:28:26
  And he said doesn't he. I haven't earned a living as an
• 1:28:28
  actor for 10 years. And I was shocked and he did
• 1:28:33
  quite cut quite a sort of forlorn figured out.
• 1:28:37
  And and as I say, I didn't put that in and I said you've got to
• 1:28:41
  put that in this this documentary is about what it's
• 1:28:43
  like being an actor. He was honest.
• 1:28:45
  He did. We didn't push.
• 1:28:46
  We didn't push him to say that. He volunteered that when I'd
• 1:28:49
  asked what I thought was quite an innocuous question and I
• 1:28:51
  think that's quite instructive. And then and we and I think we
• 1:28:55
  then recorded a link where I talked about it after we'd done
• 1:28:58
  everything else. I think the link out of that we
• 1:29:00
  went back to Broadcasting House and I dusted off the the outfit
• 1:29:04
  and and and and and we linked it together in in that way and as
• 1:29:08
  soon as it came out I regretted that because because people say
• 1:29:11
  God dull and he looks he cuts a sad figure and I thought fuck I
• 1:29:14
  pushed for that. You know And now I feel I I feel
• 1:29:21
  if nobody would have known that if we left it out and it
• 1:29:24
  wouldn't have been any worse a documentary and I felt really
• 1:29:29
  guilty about that and I but I so.
• 1:29:31
  So I sort of emailed Dell. I didn't say that directly to
• 1:29:35
  him. Funny enough I did say it to
• 1:29:37
  some of the other actors from that e-mail.
• 1:29:38
  They said oh we like the documentary And I went oh I felt
• 1:29:40
  a bit bad about Dell and nobody rose to they said no it's fine
• 1:29:44
  Toby you feel better about yourself.
• 1:29:45
  But Dell would send me quite nice emails going.
• 1:29:48
  When's when's your book coming out about the acting profession.
• 1:29:50
  Mike Strew. You know say lovely things and
• 1:29:52
  so. So I eventually popped up the
• 1:29:54
  courage to invite him out for a drink and we went for a drink
• 1:29:57
  and had a lovely chat and and he became a sort of social power of
• 1:30:04
  mine actually Dell and and we meet up for drink every now and
• 1:30:07
  again and a a group of us with there was a few of us as me Dell
• 1:30:10
  Bernard Holly Trevor Martin Terence but if you talk to who
• 1:30:14
  people would would would hook up and and I'd sort of have drinks
• 1:30:19
  with and a few sort of friends of my age as well Simon Aries
• 1:30:23
  and robbers people like that but but and Ed straddling but it was
• 1:30:27
  a sort of social group of you know and Clive Doig of old you
• 1:30:33
  know Doctor Who actors and and and me and a few other mates so
• 1:30:38
  so I knew Dell quite well by the well socially socially.
• 1:30:44
  So we remained in touch and I'm glad that I'd emailed him
• 1:30:47
  because I I felt he might have been upset by that.
• 1:30:50
  He wasn't at all he didn't. He was absolutely fine about it.
• 1:30:52
  But I it did haunt me for quite a while and I felt very guilty
• 1:30:59
  and and and I built it up as some big terrible thing and and
• 1:31:03
  as I say when we spoke about it you know it's true I said it and
• 1:31:08
  he was quite and he was quite a glass half empty sort of guy
• 1:31:12
  Dell he would and again it taught me a lesson about
• 1:31:16
  positivity and negativity and how you can choose one or the
• 1:31:19
  other because you know his career by any stretch of the
• 1:31:22
  imagination was a really good one.
• 1:31:24
  And then I started, then I started to imagine and he and he
• 1:31:26
  gave me a few anecdotes where he was maybe in a room when
• 1:31:29
  something happened and and he said what he said, which was the
• 1:31:33
  the caustic thing or the pessimistic thing.
• 1:31:35
  I thought, well, I can see what I can see how you might have
• 1:31:37
  come across there and that won't have done you any favors.
• 1:31:40
  And I know that you're a nice and self deprecating guy.
• 1:31:43
  But this anecdote you've told me about yourself.
• 1:31:45
  I can see how people might have pulled back from you on that and
• 1:31:48
  it and it and it was again a lesson in sort of how sometimes
• 1:31:51
  we say things but they might be taken in a different way.
• 1:31:54
  And how actually people remember my friend John at at sixth form
• 1:31:58
  college. No.
• 1:31:59
  At school saying to me ages ago because I was sometimes quite
• 1:32:01
  depressed at school, you know. And he said, Toby, you know when
• 1:32:05
  you go around and you've got a smile on your face, you put a
• 1:32:07
  smile on everybody else's face and when you don't, you don't.
• 1:32:12
  And I thought, Oh yeah. And that was a really good thing
• 1:32:14
  to tell me. Thanks John.
• 1:32:15
  I've. Heard it myself, you know, and
• 1:32:18
  but I used to romanticize being unhappy.
• 1:32:21
  You know, I used to I used to think it might make people think
• 1:32:24
  you were deep. You know that's like great line.
• 1:32:25
  Doesn't it have to sad. This is happiness for deep
• 1:32:28
  people. But yeah, so I think you, I
• 1:32:32
  think you have to be careful of of of that.
• 1:32:35
  Although not to say I, I, you know feel unhappiness for
• 1:32:38
  effect, but I think you can. I think you can allow it to
• 1:32:41
  consume you sometimes or you can make it everybody else's problem
• 1:32:45
  and I think that's, you know, that's I think that's dangerous
• 1:32:48
  as well. I have to say about that
• 1:32:51
  feature, I thought that was a really savvy move, putting that
• 1:32:56
  in. And actually I I don't want to
• 1:32:59
  criticize Doctor Who features because I think the work that
• 1:33:02
  they do, the the special features is extraordinary.
• 1:33:07
  But you can have 100 talking heads of everyone saying, well,
• 1:33:09
  it was so wonderful and I didn't want to leave and all of this.
• 1:33:13
  And you know, we've heard it a lot.
• 1:33:15
  Some of it quite elaborated, but we've heard it a lot.
• 1:33:18
  And so the moments like that, which really sort of highlighted
• 1:33:22
  the pain of acting, or moments like Tom Baker at the end of the
• 1:33:26
  Elizabeth Sladen documentary or the latter half of the J&T
• 1:33:31
  documentary and certainly the end of the David Whitaker
• 1:33:34
  documentary, which I had no clue about at all with that.
• 1:33:39
  That's the more interesting special features for me.
• 1:33:41
  It's something that makes me feel something.
• 1:33:42
  And actually you learn. You know what?
• 1:33:44
  This was a great show. We were all involved with
• 1:33:46
  something amazing, but it's fucking shit sometimes as well,
• 1:33:49
  you know? Yeah, well, I think Doc Two is
• 1:33:52
  always more interesting if it opens up your thoughts and
• 1:33:55
  experiences to other things. I mean, it was Ed's idea to do
• 1:34:00
  the documentary that way. And it was actually a practical
• 1:34:03
  idea because when you edit a documentary that's a series of
• 1:34:06
  talking heads and you've got six or seven interviewees when you
• 1:34:10
  edit it, it's quite complicated. If you have to go right, I need
• 1:34:12
  Peter Davison talking about the snake and I need Simon Rouse
• 1:34:14
  talking about the snake and I need nearest shoes.
• 1:34:16
  So I'm getting for different sources.
• 1:34:18
  Well, if I just take one actor after another, the edit is easy
• 1:34:22
  because it's the I just edit the interview with that actor, edit
• 1:34:26
  the interview with that actor edit.
• 1:34:27
  So he was saving himself editing days?
• 1:34:29
  Really. Well I guess the tone kind of
• 1:34:32
  has to be consistent for that also if you've got one tone
• 1:34:36
  which is very different. Well I I think that's why he may
• 1:34:39
  be swap the order from the order we actually did the interviews
• 1:34:41
  in to to balance out. But again but but yeah it came
• 1:34:46
  from a practical desire and and and and once he decided to go
• 1:34:49
  well let's let's look at the guest actors and and look at
• 1:34:52
  that in light of the rest of their careers.
• 1:34:55
  That's when I you know it got to him that I would be a decent
• 1:34:58
  presenter for that because I haven't done.
• 1:35:00
  I hadn't done many at that point and it was because it was about
• 1:35:03
  actors and I regret to this day we didn't have an ending.
• 1:35:09
  So I had this brilliant idea of going well why don't I just ad
• 1:35:12
  Lib a closing sentence where I do when I say Genesis, destiny,
• 1:35:16
  resurrection, revelation, remembrance.
• 1:35:19
  And I thought I was being so committed.
• 1:35:20
  It seemed at the time because we hadn't got an ending.
• 1:35:22
  I was like that's brilliant. And then so the next day you
• 1:35:25
  just go, oh God, that was shit. And I think it's awful, but at
• 1:35:29
  the time it seemed like a good way out of something that we
• 1:35:31
  hadn't got, and I will regret it to my dying death.
• 1:35:34
  Frequently thing that you know after decisions are made so hang
• 1:35:39
  on. So the question was about it was
• 1:35:41
  about Dell Henny, wasn't it? But then it was it wasn't really
• 1:35:43
  about Dell Henny. They used this as an example,
• 1:35:45
  but I exercised a ghost. But as I say, Dell and I, I'm
• 1:35:50
  happy with the way it turned out, with Dell and I and I, and
• 1:35:53
  I'm still in touch with his daughter.
• 1:35:54
  Actually, I was very sad when he died, but it was about whether
• 1:36:00
  any actors that were disappointed or surprising.
• 1:36:02
  Yeah, I was. The general tenor is that I was
• 1:36:07
  surprised at how disappointed most of them were.
• 1:36:13
  I mean, I was surprised anybody agreed to be interviewed by me,
• 1:36:16
  but I didn't get turned down by many people at all because
• 1:36:19
  actors like talking about themselves.
• 1:36:22
  But because I think Doctor Who had always told us, when you see
• 1:36:26
  Doctor Who always got good cast, he always got these good actors
• 1:36:29
  to do it a favor. You know, that was always the
• 1:36:31
  thing. That was always the the lie we
• 1:36:33
  were sold about. Most actors are happy to have a
• 1:36:36
  job. They wanted to work.
• 1:36:38
  But I think the way that we you know one of the things we'd say
• 1:36:40
  to people who'd say Doctor Who shit, we go Oh well why do
• 1:36:44
  actors like Julian Glover and you know any number of fame.
• 1:36:49
  Why do all these famous actors want to be and doctor it's the
• 1:36:53
  John Nathan Turner thing. Look at the star power we
• 1:36:55
  attract. Well it's just because they
• 1:36:57
  thought it'd be quite fun and it was work but we we use that as a
• 1:37:01
  currency. So I think I assumed when I was
• 1:37:03
  eating people going would you mind being interviewed I'll buy
• 1:37:06
  you lunch and most person like you can just it's fine.
• 1:37:09
  You can just interview me whenever you like.
• 1:37:13
  You know it's it's nice it's nice to be asked And and as I
• 1:37:17
  said, because I opened it up and talked to them about their
• 1:37:19
  careers. You know, people like Trevor
• 1:37:21
  Martin who was a wonderful actor who had a great career as a
• 1:37:25
  classical actor was like, you know when I asked him he was
• 1:37:29
  like, oh, I was disappointed I didn't do that or get enough of
• 1:37:32
  that or do enough of that. It's like, God, most people
• 1:37:35
  would kill for your career and and it and it makes you realize.
• 1:37:40
  And so I think it was the general tenor that that most
• 1:37:44
  people who I thought had had amazing careers, had not, had,
• 1:37:49
  had not felt themselves to have had amazing careers.
• 1:37:53
  Did anyone buck the trend there then and surprised you in the
• 1:37:55
  other direction? No, but it was satisfying with
• 1:38:01
  Barry Stanton. I haven't actually released
• 1:38:02
  Barry Stanton's interview yet. Who's who's one of the bird
• 1:38:05
  people in in Twin Dilemma? Who is?
• 1:38:08
  Who's actually had a great career as a Royal Shakespeare
• 1:38:11
  Company? I think he's even an associate
• 1:38:13
  artist gave up acting because he he was struggling with his
• 1:38:18
  mobility a bit and he went, I don't regret having given up but
• 1:38:21
  I had a great time and I never stopped working and I'm really
• 1:38:24
  satisfied with what I did and he was just content and I was that
• 1:38:27
  was really that was really nice. But some I was quite surprised.
• 1:38:31
  There's a guy called Michael Allaby who's a leading he's
• 1:38:35
  written books on he wrote books on climate change.
• 1:38:37
  But he's he's one of the sort of ensemble in the keys of marrying
• 1:38:40
  us. He's he plays a nice soldier and
• 1:38:44
  and other bits bobs. But he's he's one of the he's
• 1:38:46
  the he's one of the human guys in the city of millennia, the
• 1:38:50
  one of the affable chap at the desk.
• 1:38:53
  And I interviewed so many actors who dropped out of it and sort
• 1:38:56
  of go, yeah, I sort of gave up and who'd been a bit blase about
• 1:39:00
  it and so I so of course you know you probably did you just
• 1:39:02
  drift away from acting because of the other stuff.
• 1:39:04
  And he went, oh God, no, He said I I had to give up acting
• 1:39:07
  because I had to raise the family.
• 1:39:08
  But I couldn't go into a theater for years after that because I
• 1:39:11
  was so sad. So it's really interesting that
• 1:39:13
  you'd come. I've come away from one set of
• 1:39:15
  actors with a feeling that, oh, you know, this is, this is, this
• 1:39:19
  is what it's like. And then you realize, oh, that
• 1:39:21
  rule doesn't apply to this one because everyone's had their own
• 1:39:23
  individual journey. And I actually found it very
• 1:39:25
  touching how this guy who hadn't acted for like 40 years was
• 1:39:29
  still like, but I was, you know, absolutely heartbroken that I
• 1:39:32
  couldn't couldn't carry on doing it because it is a, you know, it
• 1:39:37
  is a a very particular job and I'm sure there are people that,
• 1:39:42
  well, I'll tell you the one. And and again I was able to
• 1:39:46
  exercise this because I wrote I wrote an article about Info 2
• 1:39:49
  magazine and I I now know his his widow quite well.
• 1:39:54
  It was David Collins who I encountered a few times who who
• 1:39:57
  I thought was a marvelous actor and it's the worst interview I
• 1:40:01
  did. I think my my interview because
• 1:40:05
  I sort of go and you bump Cratchit in Scrooge opposite
• 1:40:08
  George C Scott and you go, yes I was, wasn't I?
• 1:40:12
  And and what was that like. Yes it was right.
• 1:40:15
  And and and. And when he died, I I, you know,
• 1:40:18
  I spoke to his son and I spoke to Karen, his widow, and and and
• 1:40:22
  his son was sort of saying he's always first at the bar after a
• 1:40:24
  play. And you know, the young actors
• 1:40:26
  really looked after him because he had all up to him because he
• 1:40:28
  had all these stories. Then I heard from sort of feet,
• 1:40:30
  you know, women who knew him who sort of said, Oh yeah, And he
• 1:40:33
  got a bit of a twinkle. And I think it was a bit of a
• 1:40:35
  naughty boy. And yeah, we knew.
• 1:40:37
  And I just got this guy who was a bit like E or, you know, and I
• 1:40:42
  did a I did a commentary with him for Phantom as well, and he
• 1:40:45
  was the same there. And yeah, he was such a sort of
• 1:40:47
  vivid and mercurial and interesting actor of death.
• 1:40:52
  And. And I sent Karen the interview I
• 1:40:53
  did with him who's around and she went, God, she said he had
• 1:40:58
  he was going through a difficult time at that time and I think
• 1:41:00
  his aunt did somebody had died and and said he wasn't
• 1:41:03
  necessarily at his happiest but she said God sounds terrible and
• 1:41:06
  I said I think it was me. She said no I don't know if it
• 1:41:08
  was I think well I don't know but but that was a real I'd
• 1:41:13
  expected. I I I think, I think you know,
• 1:41:17
  everything you see of David Collings in his performances is
• 1:41:20
  if somebody you know, with a lot of Ilan and a lot of panache and
• 1:41:24
  a lot of hidden depth. And I actually found him quite,
• 1:41:27
  quite, quite sort of sort of draining the way, you know, I I
• 1:41:31
  felt like I'd gone in with effervescence, but and I came
• 1:41:34
  out rather flat. He's an extraordinary actor
• 1:41:39
  though. Oh, wonderful actor and a
• 1:41:41
  lovely, a lovely bloke. Just not a great interviewee.
• 1:41:46
  And I and I, I'm sure there's there's plenty of other
• 1:41:49
  surprises, but I'm going to hit you with another question now.
• 1:41:54
  Darren Litt, Roundels asks if if you could have acted in any
• 1:41:59
  Doctor Who story, what would it have been?
• 1:42:02
  Oh, now. I mean, you have been in several
• 1:42:05
  Doctor Who stories. I've, well, I've been in a lot
• 1:42:09
  of big, big finishes. Yes, I've been very lucky there,
• 1:42:13
  but I know what Darren means. Well, I should we just take the
• 1:42:25
  old ones into the equation? Because the new ones might might
• 1:42:30
  sound a bit like I like I'm bitter or lobbying or going.
• 1:42:35
  I could have done it better than the person that did it.
• 1:42:36
  Whereas it's a it's purely a it's purely an abstract exercise
• 1:42:40
  isn't it? If I don't I feel I could have
• 1:42:42
  had a bash at Henry Gordon Jago but I don't.
• 1:42:49
  Also, I I quite like doing, you know I quite like cold villainy
• 1:42:54
  as well. So I mean you know any, any
• 1:42:58
  number of I'm. I'm always drawn to the
• 1:43:01
  Hinchcliffe era I think because it's my cuz it's my favorite.
• 1:43:04
  But I I wouldn't have minded having a basher.
• 1:43:06
  Oh I used to. I used to I used to always
• 1:43:08
  pretend to do. I used to do an impression of of
• 1:43:11
  Channing from Spearhead from space because I like that sort
• 1:43:16
  of slightly rather cold detached deadpan delivery.
• 1:43:19
  But the the burning that he has in his eyes.
• 1:43:23
  So yeah sort of subtle. So so either of the you know the
• 1:43:28
  I think Tobias Vaughn as well maybe as he's my namesake but
• 1:43:34
  but I think I, I think you know shorthand casting wise.
• 1:43:39
  I think if, if I was sent the script for Henry to Gordon Jago,
• 1:43:42
  I think, oh, I've I've got I'm, I'm, I'm in with a chance of
• 1:43:45
  this one. And then of course a week later
• 1:43:47
  I'd be told that I'd get told I wasn't even on the short list.
• 1:43:53
  I could see you giving that speech, you know.
• 1:43:54
  You know when he's on the stage before Lisa and Chan, someone
• 1:43:59
  who's legendary, legendary, all of that.
• 1:44:01
  Yeah, yeah, I do. I was thinking, I do like the
• 1:44:04
  way that Brian Miller in state dance, he's another, you know
• 1:44:07
  Doug Dale is a similar sort of type.
• 1:44:09
  I love the way he goes, children off price.
• 1:44:14
  He's superb. He's another quite quiet chap.
• 1:44:19
  Brian Miller, lovely guy. But he's he's, he's actually
• 1:44:22
  quite shy and quite quiet, which makes that performance, you
• 1:44:26
  know, all the more remarkable. I've only ever seen him be
• 1:44:28
  brilliant and everything. Oh, he's a he's a he's an
• 1:44:31
  underrated, he's a terrific actor.
• 1:44:33
  Brian Miller. We were lucky and Doctor Who
• 1:44:35
  were well then. My my last acting stroke comedy
• 1:44:41
  question I've got for you then is it comes from a man very
• 1:44:44
  close to my heart. Mr. Simon Hart Hello Simon.
• 1:44:48
  And he asked. As we said back in the day, I
• 1:44:50
  was lucky enough to see both moths twice and now I know my
• 1:44:56
  BBC oh. Do you miss doing themed comedy
• 1:45:00
  shows? Well, I I mean, I've been
• 1:45:04
  threatening myself to do another one because.
• 1:45:08
  You heard it here first, folks. Well, I mean, things come in
• 1:45:11
  threes, don't they? And I've done two Doctor Who
• 1:45:13
  shows. I haven't done 1/3.
• 1:45:14
  The problem is, every time I've done a Doctor Who show, they've
• 1:45:19
  been quite successful and also marked a massive downturn in my
• 1:45:25
  personal life. So maybe if I get a bit fed up
• 1:45:27
  with Sherry Lee, I should do do a third show, get rid of me.
• 1:45:34
  But I feel I should. But it's it's finding the right
• 1:45:37
  thing to say. You know, I don't.
• 1:45:40
  But I think there is something interesting about you know I'm
• 1:45:43
  about to turn 50 and about kind of sort of not being relevant in
• 1:45:49
  a way and and and trying to rationalize yourself to that and
• 1:45:55
  you know the way that matters that you know there's a lot of
• 1:45:57
  people of my generation who you know there's a lot of
• 1:46:01
  uncertainty when you when you're a middle-aged bloke from a
• 1:46:05
  certain demographic who I think you know life has has changed
• 1:46:14
  for. And I and I've seen it and I've
• 1:46:16
  seen it manifest itself in not very helpful ways and I see a
• 1:46:20
  lot of people going a bit mad getting a bit angry and and and
• 1:46:26
  I I I feel a lot of blokes of my generation were a little bit
• 1:46:30
  lost. And I think there's something in
• 1:46:34
  trying to rationalize that but not to do the default thing that
• 1:46:39
  you know all middle-aged people have done, which is to blame it
• 1:46:44
  on the young and fear anything new.
• 1:46:47
  And of course Doctor Who tells us not to fear anything new and
• 1:46:50
  that actually the things that we're we're worried about turn
• 1:46:53
  out not to be a problem enough. And I I think one can equate
• 1:46:57
  because also you see older Doctor Who fans, you know
• 1:47:01
  behaving disgracefully but also young Doctor Who fans
• 1:47:06
  occasionally behaving, you know behaving quite quite sillyly as
• 1:47:09
  well. You know, there is a there there
• 1:47:11
  there there is something between the way that that different
• 1:47:16
  people approach this program depending on their age and
• 1:47:19
  something about the generation gap and not wanting to make the
• 1:47:22
  mistakes that you know the old uncool people made when I was
• 1:47:26
  younger. You don't want to be that guy,
• 1:47:28
  you know and so it's you know about learning to accept new
• 1:47:32
  things and learning to accept change and not to be bitter
• 1:47:35
  about is that the other and and to go with the flow and and all
• 1:47:39
  of that. So I think there is something
• 1:47:41
  sort of celebratory, but also quite rueful and quite wry that
• 1:47:45
  one could do with being, you know, the middle-aged white guy,
• 1:47:50
  sort of questioning his life but still clinging to this clinging
• 1:47:55
  to this funny old rock we call Doctor Who.
• 1:47:58
  Sounds like a winner to me. I think I'm outrageous to
• 1:48:03
  suggest that you're indefinable Magic episodes.
• 1:48:10
  They're like, they're like mini theme shows in themselves.
• 1:48:14
  They are a bit. They are a bit.
• 1:48:16
  They're the ones I like the best actually.
• 1:48:18
  Let me tell you, you haven't lost your touch, because those
• 1:48:21
  are. Excellent.
• 1:48:23
  Like personal smart. Lots of critique in there as
• 1:48:28
  well. I love listening to those.
• 1:48:31
  Oh good, thanks. Yeah, I like.
• 1:48:32
  I like those. I mean, I and and yes, and and
• 1:48:36
  the. The problem with the one man
• 1:48:38
  shows is that is that leading up to them is the most agonizing
• 1:48:42
  thing because you only find out if they work by doing them.
• 1:48:45
  And there's nothing worse than realizing that a 10 minute
• 1:48:48
  sequence is shit, because you're doing it in front of people who
• 1:48:52
  was staring at you. Or you know, and that's the
• 1:48:54
  only. Way you can do it and and you
• 1:48:58
  know that some of the early versions of moths were
• 1:49:01
  directionless and wrong and bad to each other but but they were
• 1:49:06
  necessary to get to what what is something I'm very very proud of
• 1:49:08
  and and pleased with the the end result.
• 1:49:10
  And then when I toured that show when it was that having done it
• 1:49:13
  there's nothing better than doing it 24 shows in 24 days at
• 1:49:17
  the Edinburgh Fringe to really nail it down And then I toured
• 1:49:20
  that for about three years and that's the probably the most
• 1:49:24
  satisfied as a performer I've ever been because I was doing a
• 1:49:26
  show I knew was good I was doing a show that was going down well
• 1:49:29
  every night. People were coming to see it.
• 1:49:31
  People were coming to see me. It wasn't like I was just on a
• 1:49:34
  stand up show that people happened to be in.
• 1:49:36
  People had bought tickets to see my show.
• 1:49:38
  So you know you sort of go well this is what it is and I'm this
• 1:49:40
  is what this is what you've come for and and it and it went
• 1:49:45
  better than I could ever have expected it to have gone and it
• 1:49:48
  got the radio series so so that was a period where I was very
• 1:49:51
  happy. But you you have to remember the
• 1:49:53
  the bit that leads up to it is sickening and really hard work
• 1:49:57
  but I I found doing both of those shows very rewarding and I
• 1:50:01
  and I sometimes need to remind myself that that I'm I'm good
• 1:50:06
  enough to to still do those and and you know that that people
• 1:50:11
  might actually be interested in seeing them but you have to you
• 1:50:13
  do have to remind yourself those especially as you get you know
• 1:50:17
  more and more we get enclosed into our own homes and broadcast
• 1:50:20
  from our own homes and do just stuff on their own steam.
• 1:50:22
  It's a lot. You insulate yourself a little
• 1:50:24
  bit and it's a lot. It's a lot easier to to just go
• 1:50:28
  well, I don't ever. I can just bring it out there
• 1:50:30
  and it doesn't matter. That's the only reason I'll do
• 1:50:33
  this, you know. But yes, I I would.
• 1:50:37
  I wouldn't be averse to doing one, but I know it would be an
• 1:50:40
  awful lot of a lot of a lot of work.
• 1:50:44
  We're waiting it with basic breath.
• 1:50:48
  I put your head in your hands. Well, look, thank you so much.
• 1:50:53
  I'm going to end part one there. I think we covered in incredible
• 1:50:57
  depth acting and comedy. With your usual fabulous
• 1:51:02
  personal insights. Well, I hope it was.
• 1:51:05
  I don't think I was very funny, but I think I was quite
• 1:51:08
  miserable for most of that. But anyway, I hope it was
• 1:51:10
  interesting. It's honest though, you know
• 1:51:12
  it's honest and it's it's a genuine look at this stuff.
• 1:51:16
  So I'm always saying don't apologize to you, aren't I?
• 1:51:19
  But we'll be back for Part 2, where I'm going to be.
• 1:51:23
  Attempting to drive anecdotes out of you God.
• 1:51:27
  From people that you have met from the Doctor Who universe.
• 1:51:31
  So stay tuned folks. They'll be out in a couple of
• 1:51:33
  days. Toby, thank you very much.
• 1:51:36
  Thanks, Joe. I'll cut it there.