Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / How Introverts Can Master Networking Without Feeling Drained with Saja Raoof
Transcript
- Gary Johnson: Welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing, where we get brutally honest about marketing, business development, and the messy middle of making it all work. I'm Gary Johnson, marketing coach, strategist, and professional BS detector for attorneys and professional advisors who are tired of doing what everyone else does. And if you listen to this and think, I need help with this, my next group coaching cohort starts June 11th. Check out the show notes for details. So around here, we skip the fluff, real conversations, real insights, and yeah, probably a few F-bombs along the way. So let's get into this. Today's episode is for anyone who hears the word networking and immediately feels drained. I'm joined by my friend Saja Raoulf, a business immigration attorney and founder of SAR Law. Saja helps highly skilled individuals and companies navigate complex immigration processes, and she's built a thriving practice doing it. But what makes this conversation really interesting is how she approaches networking, especially as someone who doesn't fit the typical always-on work-the-room stereotype. We're going to get into how introverts can build real relationships without forcing it, what actually works and why networking doesn't have to feel like a performance. Saja knows her shit inside and out, and the proof is in the pudding. Her results speak volumes, not just in her successful immigration practice, but also in her networking group. She runs the biggest networking group improvisers. And that's out of about six hundred and fifty groups. She also mentors and coaches other group leaders to be extremely successful in networking and she is a fucking introvert. So without further ado, welcome Saja to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. I am so excited to be here, Gary. Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction and for having me here. I am just I I was wondering when the first F bomb would drop. Thank you for inserting it from the very first. We just cut straight to it, right? Yes, thank you. All right, so let's start with why does networking feel so uncomfortable or draining for a lot of attorneys, especially introverts? Because we are really trained on overthinking. Overanalyzing and ⁓ for why are some people wired to be introverts versus extroverts, ⁓ I I'll leave that to the physiologists and psychologists. But the single most challenging thing that I struggled with when I graduated law school was networking. I would ask a friend from law school to go with me to the to events, I would show up to immigration. lawyer organization networking events, speak when spoken to, and then leave without really having any conversations. Part of it, maybe, who knows, nurture, nature, culture. Grew up in a part of the world that encouraged sort of a quiet demeanor for especially for women. And so it's a struggle to show up to something that you can't really prepare for. Yes, you could look at an attendee list, you can do some homework on the attendees, but it's the conversations with complete strangers. Yeah. That really raises my and until today. It it never got comfortable. I I got really good at it, but it's always something I have to prepare for. It's always something that I have to build protections around. Yeah. It's so true. And I feel I love that you are so honest and blunt about it. ⁓ I I was at a Provisor meeting, this was about a year ago. And there was somebody who was speaking about networking. And the first thing she did was she said, raise of hands. There's about 60 people that are in the room. She said, Raise your hands. Who here is uncomfortable about getting into, like, has a little bit of anxiety or a lot of anxiety of coming into this room? Me being a group leader, I knew probably almost every single person in that room. I was the only person to raise their hand. And I'm like, You guys are all a bunch of fucking liars because they're like, we have to be comfortable. No, you don't. Like, I always say that if you got some butterflies in your stomach, then that means you care. That means that you really are like, okay, I want to build some relationships. It also might be, shit, I'm not prepared for this. ⁓ my God, what are they going to say? Which you can you can do certain things to overcome it, but. I love that you shared that because it's so genuine and it's so honest. And so many people are like, they mask behind, I'm just comfortable in doing this. And you're like, bullshit, you are. Like, come on, you know. And and even like our groups, right? That we run, we get a little bit of anxiety beforehand. It's not debilitating, right? But it is this little uncomfortableness. So in that vein, How do you overcome that? Are is there anything that you do that's like, okay, I do this to quote unquote get ready for a networking event? If it's a meeting that I'm running, like San Francisco 14 or Glam, I have those days on my calendar every month blocked off to meetings. So I will run a meeting from seven to nine AM and then cannot be reached unless it's an emergency. I do not schedule meetings. It used to be for the whole day. ⁓ now until about one or so I can I can start talking to people, but I'm it's counterproductive to ⁓ schedule to have a meeting scheduled where I'm facilitating, followed immediately by a client call. Yeah. Yeah. Does that okay, so is the reason why? Because you need to regain like regain your energy and your momentum. Exactly. If networking drains you and if talking to people drains you, don't schedule two ⁓ things of those nature back to back. Yeah. Brilliant advice, people. There's one RA nugget and we're only what, a couple of minutes into this. So ⁓ I I but but you understand your strengths and weaknesses, right? And but you understand how this affects you. And instead of not doing it, you schedule around it that it's like I'm gonna do other stuff besides chit chatting with people. Uh-huh And for your extroverts, schedule something right afterwards so you get some more pumping, which is exactly what I do. I'm like, let's just let's just double up on these things. But that's we're getting complete opposites. That sounds like talking in a foreign language to me. So when you think about networking, what do you think people are getting wrong about it from the start? To quote my dear friend Belle Walker. Love Bell. I was at her meeting this morning and she shared that the way she talks about networking is the first thing you should expect to gain is a community. And the second thing is a she didn't use Rolodex, but it's the word that comes to mind. Yes. We all know what a Rolodex is. And a Rolodex of resources, people to refer your clients to. And then third and last is the expectation that you'll receive referrals. And she said if you come in with that third expectation as your top priority, you may be disappointed. And I 100% agree with the way she framed it. And sometimes we can come to networking with I I I'd never joined a networking organization before provisors. So I had almost zero practice. And I noticed and learned over time that givers are the ones who thrive the most and that it's about ⁓ supporting others and embracing that community that you build around yourself. Yeah, brilliant. I mean, one of my favorite books is The Go Giver. I talk about it a lot. And it's just Bob Berg's brilliance on that is simple, but it's just that attitude of that, because then what happens is just like you had said, you build a community of relationships, not transactions. There's a huge difference between the two when you're networking When people are networking wrong and it feels ⁓ because they're just a transaction. They're like, Hey Saja, what do you do? Yeah, and you can't help me. Next, hey, so and so, what do you and next, you know, and you feel that way. Even when you can help the person out, uh-huh, you just feel that and you're like, There's no connection here, you know, nothing. And and I think that's brilliant. Build a community, build your resources, your Rolodex of resources, and then hopefully expect some ⁓ referrals back. So now, as an introvert, do you think introverts actually have an advantage when it comes to building relationships as opposed to obnoxious individuals like myself? ⁓ I didn't use the word obnoxious. You did. I did. And the answer is yes. So I had a misconception that you had to be loudly confident and talkative and energized by people in order to succeed in networking. Until I came across a book called Networking for People Who Hate Networking by DeVore Zo. What a brilliant name. And I I read her book twice and it was a game changer. She doesn't argue that you need to change your nature. She argues that you protect your manager energy, like the example I mentioned with back to back meetings, and that you leverage your strengths as an introvert. So what are those strengths? Listening for sure. Yep. It's not just the and that's not exclusive to introverts, of course. It's an it's an empath, regardless of whether you're introvert or extrovert. But it is more that I prefer to listen than to have to come up with what to say. Yeah. So hence this interview. So I when I'm any time that I can have the opportunity to delegate the talking to somebody else. Yep. That's what I do. So when I interview candidates from my group, I give my EC members who are joining me on the call, your job is to have the conversation and my job is to quietly judge. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That part is easier now. I can handle interview on my own. But ⁓ if I go into a breakout room and I'm rarely in a chatty mood, I will there's a number of tricks. I I some introverts prefer the smaller ⁓ environment in breakout room. Yep. Yep. I actually prefer the main room, the the bigger meeting. Because I don't have to engage one day. So when I'm putting when I'm putting a breakout room, I ⁓ suggest that if there's a prompt, let's go in alphabetical order. With a name like Saja Rouf, both my names are late in the alphabet, they'll run out of time and they'll never get to me. my god. Okay, next time I have a breakout that you're in, and I'm gonna say the one from Z to A and you'll go, Screw you asshole. This one's from my buddy Saja. That is so strategic though. Like, I love that aspect. Or my ⁓ my business coach, your colleague and friend Ale Yajnik. Who I love dearly. Yes. He once told me he when he's in a breakout room, he quickly unmutes himself and appoints himself the conversation facilitator so that he calls on people and lets them do the talking. And he so that's brilliant. I mean there's you know. all kinds of tactics for how to minimize the the awkwardness of the of the conversations. Yeah. And I mean it it it really i is especially you notice I'm not very chatty right now. And instead of just going, I'm just gonna suffer through it, you're like, I'm gonna delegate this over to somebody else. I'm gonna get other people to talk, you know, which when I I would say that the people look at you then as the leader, right? Because you're the one who is delegating it out. You're like, okay, like, ⁓ hey, so why don't you go first? And they're like, you're so gracious. They do not know that you're like, God, don't ask me any questions. You know, they're just thinking, hey, this is good. But it also shows, wow, she's a true leader. ⁓ and this goes back to the go giver. It's just kind of a natural thing, but it's also a function that you utilize so that. you don't have to like hate it, endure it, and be like forced into you know, into doing that. So I I think that's brilliant. So speaking of forced, how do you approach a networking event in a way that actually feels natural and not forced, where you can network effectively in let's say a big room. Like PV at night? Like PV at night, yes. It's a great example. I almost never attend those unless I plan it with at least one other friend. Okay. Because Okay, so let's stop right there, real quick. Because that's an important point. Why is it important to bring a friend? Because knowing myself on the day of it it's not going to be necessarily cold feet, but all of a sudden a nap will appear more appealing than going to PV at night. Yep. So if I have an accountability buddy, a wingman or a wingwoman, then that's I'm more likely to show up. Of course I'm not gonna cancel on a friend. With a number of caveats. So if you go with an introvert, the pros of that is that you both want to show up a little bit late and leave a little bit early and be decided on when exactly to leave and you share you don't need to justify that to each other. But you have a game plan. However, also another dear friend Angela Dunes called me before The last PV at night we had here in the Bay Area and she said, Are you going? I said, No. She said, That's all the excuse I needed to hear. We both didn't go. And yeah. I mean we ended up having dinner together, but just we did we couldn't I wasn't up for the drive and she couldn't so Yeah. If you go with an extrovert alternatively, if you go with an extroverted wing person ⁓ to one of these events, they will take on the responsibility of talking and There's your delegation again. I love it. They they could get really wrapped up in a conversation when you're trying to leave and you're trying to pull them away and they can't be and disengage. So Yeah. Yeah. It's totally true. Like for the extroverts that are listening to this too, Wing Person is fantastic for this. Even if they're an extrovert, they could be an introvert, extrovert doesn't make a difference. And one of the reasons why I say that is because when I go, it it it allows the comfortability of walking into a room. You've got your buddy right there. But what I typically do, and you're gonna hate this, but what I typically do is I we have a game plan and I say, I'm going that way, you go that way. But we also know that when our confidence is low or lowered, we then come back to home base, which is each other. So for instance, if you're going in and you're like, Okay, I'm going up to these people and you start talking to them and they're just making you feel like a third wheel. Like And you're trying to, yeah, it's just not happening. You're like, damn it, do they not like me? All the bullshit goes on in our heads and going back to that person can fill it up. It's almost like a video game where your health is down all of a sudden ding ding ding ding ding. Uh-huh. And it's vice versa. So then you have that safe spot, but also you can introduce them to other people too. So being inclusive and saying, Hey, hey, hey, Nicole, come over here. You know, I want to. I want to introduce you to this person. I just met this. And and you'll be able to find her, which then creates a lot of good community. It also creates your Rolodex, not only for you, but the other person. But I love that idea of a r of bringing a wing person and having that game plan with them because they need to be on the same. I the other thing that I don't do is we always go separately. Cause I want to get out of there. And I never say goodbye. I do, what do they call it? The Irish goodbye or the Houdini, I just disappear, you know? ⁓ because it's takes thirty minutes to then just leave and bye. And then they always guilt you. Sasha, why are you leaving? Shut the hell up. I just wanna get out of here, you know. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so for someone walking into a room where they don't know anyone, is there a simple way to start a conversation without overthinking it? Zach says in her book that you It's better to approach groupings of people that have an odd number of people because it's likely one will be ⁓ open to chatting with you. And that you know, this brings us to the pain of small talk, ⁓ which I have immune immunized myself from in my meetings. It's not possible to small talk with people in breakout rooms from the moment we open the Zoom at seven AM. Everyone nobody has the opportun it's impossible to chit chat with me 'cause I need every focus I can I can pay to do my what I enjoy about preparing I I enjoy preparing for the meetings. I have elaborate spreadsheets and and those I r it's it's the running of the meeting that's stressful. So I protect my energy by blocking small talk and then it's always a good idea to have an open ended two or three questions in mind. How did you what do you do? How did you choose that career? Like that question. Yeah. And if they say I fell into it, probe a little bit further. Yeah. And Dale Carnegie, I'm from his book, says people love to talk about themselves. They love to so just you can have a whole conversation by just you asking questions and hearing and listening back. And this is not intentional, but it it just so happened on a couple of occasions that something I'm wearing or holding prompts a conversation. It invites a conversation. So Yep. I was wearing earrings that had Farsi script on them. Somebody asked what it said. And at first I wished I hadn't torn them because it wasn't a conversation, but they did put the bur did took the burden off of me. And then one time I was ⁓ I embroider and I had a large piece that I was working on sticking out of my purse ⁓ at a bar association event. Somebody noticed it and asked to look at it, and that was ⁓ it's good. Yeah. I I love Carnegie's quote of if you want to be interesting, be interested. ⁓ And for the listeners right now, Sasha does this extremely well. And I've actually seen it in real life at group leader summits. So there's 400, 500 group leaders at the summit, and it's big and it's loud. And Sasha's always the most interesting person in the room. And this is a bunch of Driven type A personalities. A lot of them are pretty sure, but they're all leaders. They all are interesting. They all this wonderful stuff. And I I love observing, you know, just as a a coach of this, but I love observing certain people and saying, okay, what's working, what's not working, because I can learn from them. And one of the things that I so witnessed, which just touched my heart, was everybody wanted to talk to you, which I know you're like, fuck you, get away from me. But I noticed that when you're talking to them, you're not saying a lot. And yet they're so interested in speaking to you. And I'm like, damn. And again, it's a nice reminder for me that the old ad is you got two ears, one, one mouth, use it proportionately when you're networking. I know you'll probably say, you've got two ears, two eyes, a neck, ⁓ an arm, and a mouth. use it proportionally, like one twentieth of the time is gonna be that. But but it really makes you interesting, right? And and I think we've been trained to be like, in order to be interesting, we have to come up with just these elaborate stories. Or we need to be the loudest one in the room, or we need to be like so persuasive, which really is manipulative. And it's just, it just feels weird. It just doesn't feel authentic, right? And it's it's just, you know, I think we just as a society been taught wrong. That's why I love that you're that that you're talking about it because you're not alone. You're absolutely not alone, you know, which is great. Okay, so we all want to get something out of a networking event, right? We're going there for a reason. And I love what you had said from Bell, which was, you know, build a community, build a Rolodex of People that can help out your clients, your family, your friends, so just resources out there, and then expect to get referrals. But what does good networking actually look like for you at a after an event? Like after you've left an event and you go, Wow, that was really successful. What is that for you? It's when I manage to uncover a deep conversation. That is the best case scenario. When I find some ground of commonality with somebody else. And recently I met an estate planning attorney in the Bay Area who went to Michigan for graduate school. And we reminisced about that and we we that was a wonderful deep conversation beyond the small talk. So that's my best case scenario. What you don't want, what ⁓ the way I use when I used to attend networking events before, maybe talk to a few people, probably gather a few business cards. If I remember to connect with them on LinkedIn, and then I never hear or see them again. So that is it's not a waste of time. It's just not mm strategic. ⁓ as you have said many times on your LinkedIn, there needs to be follow up. There needs to be some kind of meaningful continuity because it's not it shouldn't be a one time interaction or exposure. You're not going to get much value out of that. Yep. Yeah. And on that vein How do you build those deeper relationships instead of just surface level connections? Because what you're talking about is you go to an event, you get people's business, you don't follow up, like, you know, but the after is there's a lot, not just, hey, I I got connected with you on LinkedIn, but how do you build deep relationships? Because you do have deep relationships, you know. ⁓ and so how do you, how do you? build those deeper relationships. It's built over time. And in the initial the initial phase of getting to know other people, ⁓ I ask a lot of questions. ⁓ a lot of it is inspired by ⁓ Sam Lee, who is fellow SF4T member and San the group leader of San Jose 2. He brings a whole worksheet to his Troikas and he really understands in depth your business. Mm-hmm. And I also take notes not just on ideal client and where they're located, but also what seems interesting about this individual that I'm ascertaining from the stroika. Yeah. And one of my favorite examples of that is Marjorie Heinrich, who is a personal injury attorney. My first troika with her, she the way she spoke about her cases was captivity. Like we were all just listening to her. And so that's something I keep in mind that if I If she were if she were to send me a referral, an immigration referral, and I have the opportunity to thank her in a testimonial, then I can say she's a from personal knowledge that she's a captivating storyteller. And of course that's something a great quality to have in a litigator. Mm-hmm. So I look for things to praise people on. I look for qualities, positive attributes, what strikes me about this individual that is memorable. And then I keep it in mind And I find opportunities to either apply it in my life, that quality or that tip or whatever it is, and I then get in touch with that person and then mention it to them. So for example, Yeah. Garrett Goldman, who is a website designer here in the Bay Area, asked me one time, How do you describe what you do to a six-year-old? And I thought that was an amazing question. It is such a great way to really boil down in a short, memorable way what somebody does. Yeah. And I used it so much in my networking. And I I got in touch with him one time and I said, I've actually named a whole networking game. Yeah. Around I called it the Goldman Tetlow game. From him, Sarah Tetlow suggested that we make it a group activity. It's all built around how do you and and so When I get in touch with him and I tell him this, that is a more meaningful way to connect than if I just add him to my mailing list. That is so fucking brilliant. ⁓ my God. Like, because everybody loves to be praised. And when it's coming from somebody like yourself, you're like, wait, what? And I love that you utilize that in your reach out. Like, you know, that's absolutely brilliant. I mean, because then it it automatically creates a connection. They feel really cool. And then they go, Wow, she must be a warm individual. She must be like somebody I need to speak to. Holy shit, this is like yours just stringing gold fucking today. So thank you. Like that's a good move in in life. I mean to borrow a word used earlier forced. Yeah. It's a sincere thing. I was genuinely impressed by that question. And I don't have an agenda and I'm not trying to sort of ⁓ fabricate a fake there's nothing transactional about it and it applies in life generally. So there is a coffee shop across the street from my office and they go out of their way to ⁓ draw on your cup when you order. Yeah. And I mentioned that to them one time. I said, you know, I'm an immigration attorney. Things are stressful for me right now. And coming to your coffee shop and getting this thoughtfully designed cup. is always a nice touch to my day. And so we're trained, again, as attorney specially to look for a fault, look for things to criticize about. But life is so much better if you look for opportunities to praise and compliment. ⁓ God. Okay, last question for you. For someone who does find networking exhausting, how do they stay consistent without burning out? And I know you gave us one where you block in the time afterwards and making sure that you're You're filling your energy up ⁓ as well. But is there anything else that allows you to be consistent because you're a freaking really consistent person? I love spreadsheets. Okay. I love mapping out my networking plan. I love I use spreadsheets for troika information, for as I mentioned earlier, planning a meeting that I'm facilitating, everything onboarding a new member that goes into a spreadsheet goes through phases. It needs to I keep myself highly organized. And if organized, then consistency naturally follows. Saja. Unbelievable. Like, thank you. Like there's so many were great things. Like we just talked about blocking time, but also getting your community, building Rolodex of resources, ex then expect referrals instead of the reverse, you know, and networking the the book networking what'd you say networking for those who hate networking for people who hate networking by Divorce for people who hate networking I love that and also listen if you're an introvert you're gonna be already great at that if you're an extrovert shut your shut your hole and listen listen you know ⁓ but also I love your idea of delegating talking so you're like hey hey hey and especially when you are in a breakout room because I didn't even think about like, ⁓ my gosh, this would be fantastic. But bring a wing person. Have that game plan with them before you even go. It'll keep you accountable, but it'll also take a little bit of that stress down because again, you can delegate the talking and you know, you're like, we understand each other's expectations for this. So we're going in with the same thing. But also when you're going up to groups in an event, look for the people that have. Odd numbers. So three, five, seven. Look for those because there's always be one person who you might be able to break into as opposed to that one on one. Ask open-ended questions, wear something interesting. That's always a good one, too, because it's a conversation starter. I don't know if extroverts are going to really love that one because again, like you had said, you're like, ⁓ why to wear these earrings? But look to uncover a deep conversation by being really curious about them and understanding that deep relationships are about asking lots of questions about them, looking for things that you can praise them on, especially when you reach out to people you don't know, but you learned something a little bit about them. And have a plan to stay consistent, be organized when you get that. Look at all those fing nuggets, Saja. So especially for this podcast, I have to add one more thought. The reason why I'm so drawn to your podcast, as I've told you, Gary, is your humor. And for introverts, it helps with managing your stress. So and you don't have to get to the point where you don't have to change your nature. You embrace it and you embrace and you leverage its strengths. I use humor all the time within the context of introversion. So I if I put in the breakout room alone, ⁓ I will take a picture of it and post it on Facebook and thank God I landed in a an empty breakout room. Or like at PV at night, one of the top survival skills for introverts is to utilize the restroom. Just go and take your breathwash your hands and Oprah is an introvert and she does that. So Yeah. and take a picture and post it on Facebook and tag your extroverted friends, taught taught them and just make it make it a funny thing. So I love that because look It's it I think personally introversion is an a a strength if you can utilize it. And like all that stuff that you said, it empowers us to say, we can do that. And for any of you attorneys who are introverts who are like, I just don't want to network, I would so suggest utilize what Saja said. Try practice it a few times. You're not gonna be great at the beginning. It's something new, you know? It's like any skill. We start it, ⁓ it's gonna be awful. It's gonna be awkward. It's gonna feel awkward because you've never done it before. But the more you do it, the better you're gonna get with this. And the more effective you will be, and you will attract so many wonderful people, like wonderful people, not the crazy ones that are out there, but the really good ones that wanna build a deep relationship. Because if you want to charge a lot of money for your services, it's based on relationships, not on transactions. So Saja, thank you. ⁓ my God. Now if if somebody wants to get a hold of you, we're we're gonna put all of her contact information from her LinkedIn to her website to her email address. Like you'll be able to get a hold of Saja because if she says it, you're not gonna fucking remember. And it's right there, so you can just click it. But also watch the whole well, you're already watching this, so screw that. So but subscribe to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. I would greatly appreciate it. And Saja, you are Amazing what you do, and I cannot tell you how much I love you in my life. And I just thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Gary. Thank you. You're welcome. That's it for today's episode of Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. If you got a spark of inspiration, learned something new, or at least got a good laugh, make sure to follow, rate, and share this with someone who needs to hear it. Thanks for hanging out with me. And remember, the best marketing. is the one that actually sounds like you. See you next time.