Latest / The Price of Music / Fans First: Lord Kevin Brennan on fixing live music from the ground up - Bonus Episode

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Fans First: Lord Kevin Brennan on fixing live music from the ground up - Bonus Episode · The Price of Music

0:03
Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, brought to you by
0:05
Music Ally, the show that's fascinated by all the fun and
0:08
games and finances of the music world.
0:11
I'm Steve Lemack, and this is a special bonus edition of the
0:15
show. Thank you very much for
0:17
listening. In a moment, we'll be joined by
0:19
Baron Brennan. There's a first for us, an
0:22
actual member of the House of Lords on the show.
0:25
Although Kevin Brennan isn't your typical Lord, he's a former
0:29
M MP who plays the guitar once suggested that the House of
0:33
Commons should consider having dressed down Thursdays.
0:36
He's also LED a campaign with Billy Bragg to lift the ban on
0:38
prisoners having access to guitars.
0:41
And he's long been a champion of musical issues in Parliament,
0:45
especially around grassroots music venues, which has led him
0:50
to be given his latest role, which is that of spearheading a
0:53
new fan LED review of live and electronic music on behalf of
0:56
the Commons Culture Committee. Take a minute to just let that
1:00
sink in and the importance of it.
1:02
Yes, there will be an actual, there is an actual fan LED
1:06
review. This is a very rare chance to
1:09
tell government what live music in this country really means to
1:13
us and what we like about it and what we don't like and what
1:16
could be done to improve matters.
1:18
It is. It's a wide-ranging survey
1:21
including subjects like ticket resale, but all the findings
1:25
will help discussions at government level about the music
1:29
scene in this country. It's something that we've been
1:32
asking for for ages and it's currently open till the end of
1:36
November. As an overview, this is what it
1:38
says on the actual website. Our aim is to put fans at the
1:42
heart of how the live and electronic music industry works
1:46
and to make sure the government is listening to them.
1:48
To tell us more, here is the man himself, Kevin.
1:51
Welcome to The Price of Music. Thanks Steve, pleasure to be
1:55
here. Thank you for giving us some of
1:57
your time. At the risk of embarrassing you
1:59
before we've even started, I found this quote on a website
2:02
which says of you. This is from the former Long Pig
2:05
singer Crispin Hunt. Kevin Brennan is a rare and
2:09
enviable thing, equally gifted as a writer of songs as he is a
2:14
writer of wrongs. That's what you want on your
2:16
Epitar, isn't it? That's that's quite the endorse.
2:20
I've seen that before I I'll have to buy Crispy a drink next
2:23
time I see him rounded her. I'll be honest that's these are
2:26
good words. It's.
2:28
Very nice of you, although I guess it partly depends on
2:30
whether you like the long pigs or not, but I've got, I've got.
2:33
A point. I've got a question for a music
2:36
question for you, because some people will already know this,
2:41
but I don't know how is your band Because now you've moved
2:44
from the Commons to the Lords because you had a band with some
2:47
fellow MPs called brilliantly, in case you don't know listeners
2:51
MP4. You can see what we did there.
2:54
Yes, we're quite, it's a little bit.
2:57
We hadn't officially sort of disbanded.
3:00
We were, we were for over 20 years, but there's only one left
3:04
in the Commons now. We were basically 4 MPs when we
3:06
started out and it was a cross party.
3:08
Then we had, we had a 2 Labour, an SNP, he ball player guy
3:12
called Pete Wishart who was in Runrick for 18 years.
3:15
So proper, you know, music industry professional, top of
3:18
the pops and everything but and we had a guy called Greg Knight
3:21
who's our drummer, Tory drummer. So we were cross party venture.
3:25
But there's only one left after 20 years and although we haven't
3:29
completely disbanded and we have got actually 1 recording in the
3:32
can, that's never been released. So if the clamour for another
3:36
MP4 record reaches such a great height, maybe we'll drop it at
3:40
some point, as they say these days.
3:41
I mean, everyone's getting back together.
3:43
I mean, give it another five years.
3:44
It could be you could make the comeback the size of Oasis, you
3:48
know? And yeah, I think, yeah, I think
3:50
probably we're more likely to fill one of these very small
3:54
grassroots music venues than the than a, than a principality
3:57
savior regardless. But you never know.
3:59
You never know. I do see, I mean, the reason I
4:01
mention these things is that so, you know, people who aren't
4:05
aware of your backgrounds, don't think that this, you know,
4:07
they're heading up this new survey is some sort of attempt
4:10
to buy credibility because you've, you know, long and often
4:13
been a voice on music industry issues in the Commons, haven't
4:16
you, over the years. Yeah, I have.
4:19
And I'm too old to worry about credibility, so that doesn't
4:23
really, that doesn't really matter.
4:24
But I have, and when I was, when I got it as an MP, what, what I,
4:29
a few things just really rankled me a little bit.
4:31
One was that in the House of Parliament, there was a rule at
4:34
the time you couldn't actually play music anywhere in.
4:38
And I'm thinking this is one of the most important parts of our
4:40
culture, of our economy, you know, and so on.
4:43
And you can't even feature any music in case it might disturb a
4:46
meeting or something like that. I managed to get that changed
4:49
and warming the band was helpful because it was very difficult
4:52
and say when you guys can't play because we were actual MPs and
4:54
then we were able to bring other people in.
4:57
The other thing that that I noticed really about the music
5:00
industry was it was very difficult to understand
5:03
sometimes what the music industry actually wanted out of
5:07
public policy because there were so many different voices.
5:10
Ironically, in an industry, it's all about harmony or should be,
5:13
you know, there were so many different voices.
5:15
Cameron and in in a lot of people don't understand in
5:17
government. Governments really just want to
5:19
know what do you what do you actually want?
5:21
I mean, everyone wants some money obviously and all that,
5:23
but what is it that you actually want and you need of flourish
5:26
and help? Music, you know, continue to be
5:29
a story in the UK And so I thought it was important to put
5:34
some time into understanding the music industry.
5:37
I actually did a fellowship with the industry and Parliament
5:40
Trust and spent, you know, 18 days over a couple of years
5:43
actually visiting all different parts of the industry from, you
5:47
know, publishers to venues to big record labels to live.
5:51
And there's a live venues or. And it was really useful to
5:54
build up that expertise and then be able to try and communicate
5:57
to government what the industry wants and try and get some some
6:00
change. Yeah, I mean, because we quite
6:02
often hear MPs from time to time talking about music or at least
6:06
talking about the success of our music industry.
6:09
I think people like to show off about Britain's pop music
6:12
culture and our position on the global stage and the money
6:16
that's pop music, the pop music industry raises including
6:19
obviously in, in export terms and these is that, is that
6:23
something which is a, you think a genuinely held belief or do
6:26
some people latch on to this? They're saying it just for show
6:30
And in which case how, how will this change matters your your
6:35
review? I suppose that's two questions,
6:37
really. Yeah, I mean, I think that over
6:41
the years a better understanding as as has come about for MPs and
6:46
so on about how the music industry actually is genuinely
6:50
in UK success story. There's only three countries in
6:53
the world that are net exporters of music.
6:56
And you know, it's very unusual. There's there's, there's
6:59
billions of pounds at stake. There's lots and lots of jobs at
7:02
stake in our music industry. And that does map it to
7:05
politicians, to MPs and so on, because it's their constituents,
7:07
it's venues that are within their constituency and, and a
7:12
lot of them themselves this generation, I mean, I'm in my
7:15
60s now, but you know, this generation of people who
7:17
actually grew up, if you like being massive music fans and
7:21
fans of, you know, rock, pop music, all the other different
7:23
genres, you know, are the policy makers.
7:26
So there is more of an understanding of its importance.
7:29
And the, the, the survey we're doing here is really triggered
7:32
by the fact that organizations like the Music Venues Trust and
7:37
so on have pointed out what's happening in our communities to
7:40
some of our grassroots music venues closing down at a fast
7:42
rate. Why is that happening?
7:44
What are the causes of it? Are some of the reasons that's
7:46
happening public policy reasons like the rates or, you know, the
7:50
local councils noise abatement department or whatever it is?
7:53
What are the real causes of that?
7:55
And are there other ways? Are there other issues that are
7:57
going on that mean that, you know, small music and user are
8:01
closing down to people don't want to go to them anymore, you
8:03
know, and you have to. Yeah, you and I probably, I
8:06
think I heard you say this yourself once, Steve.
8:08
You know, if we went to a gig when we were youngsters and you
8:10
saw anyone over the age of 30, you know, you say what you doing
8:13
to your granddad. Direct quote from you.
8:15
I'm used to that. And it's so true.
8:17
You go to these days and you'll see people, you know, from all
8:21
sorts of different age groups. But do younger people today
8:24
actually want to go to the kind of venues that we used to love
8:26
to go to go down the staircase, onto a sticky floor, into a, you
8:29
know, sweaty room and, and the band jumping up and down?
8:33
And so we're, we're all about trying to find that out and
8:35
seeing what we can do to turn the dial in favour of the fans,
8:38
to try and, you know, keep this wonderful live sector we have
8:41
going in the UK. Yeah, I mean, it's probably
8:44
worth just sort of mentioning the history of how this review
8:48
came about because it was, it was originally it was a
8:52
recommendation from the Select Committee on Grassroots Music,
8:55
Wasn't it was dismissed by government at the time.
8:57
But, but in the end, the committee have come back to it
9:00
and said, no, we think that we can get something really
9:03
valuable out of it. Why don't we do it anyway?
9:06
Yeah, exactly. And I think probably the
9:08
government might have been a little bit sort of sort of we
9:12
haven't done the football fan leg review which which some of
9:15
this idea came from. There were all these terrible
9:19
things in football with, you know, owners changing the
9:22
colours of orchids, which they did to my home team in card is,
9:26
you know, and, and all dodgy money coming into the game and
9:29
etcetera, etcetera. And we've seen fans in football
9:32
stand up together, you know, and, and actually work together
9:37
to try and change things. And now there's a football
9:40
regulator, for example, who has just been set up, which will
9:44
have powers to do something about some of these issues where
9:46
you have these terrible owners of football clubs and, and, and
9:49
speak on behalf of the fan. I know I'm not necessarily
9:53
saying we would need a music regulator or something like that
9:55
in, in music, but I do think that there is a case to a
9:59
government to listen more closer to the fans voice.
10:01
So the Select Committee decided, what if the government's not
10:04
going to do it, why don't we do it ourselves?
10:07
They asked me, I used to be a member of that committee when I
10:09
was an MP for a period of time. And when I was on that
10:12
committee, I drove a lot of the inquiries that we did around
10:15
music. We did a quite impactful study
10:19
on the economics of music streaming, you know, which
10:22
turned the dial, brought about change.
10:24
And you ended up with things now like for example, where you
10:27
know, there's there's now a per diem, a daily payment for
10:29
songwriters if they're asked by a major record label to, you
10:33
know, work with somebody on, on writing some new songs rather
10:35
than just have to depend on that song being a big hit to get any
10:38
money at all. Little basic changes like that
10:41
can make a big difference to people, particularly at the
10:44
bottom of the music industry or people are not making the
10:47
millions and billions of pounds some are.
10:50
So I think the committee thought it'd be worth doing.
10:52
And when it's concluded the report, which will be in the new
10:55
year, it'll be presented the committee perciples and then
10:59
they will present to the government.
11:00
And The thing is, the government does have to respond to a Select
11:03
Committee. The House of Commons can't
11:05
guarantee they'll do everything we want and not everything will
11:08
be to do with government either. There might be some
11:10
recommendations that are more to do with industry, but that
11:13
that'll be the procedure. So the survey itself will, will,
11:16
will close probably the end of November I think.
11:18
And then sometime in the new year, we'll come out there,
11:21
there's a report. And how how was it formulated?
11:25
Because I, I, I doubt it's as easy as some people think,
11:30
writing the right sort of questions that generate the most
11:35
informative answers. Does.
11:36
Does that make sense? You, And obviously, you know,
11:40
even before that, I guess someone somewhere has to sit
11:43
down and decide what the scope of it's going to be.
11:46
Because it could be. It could be 5 pages long, or it
11:50
could be 100 pages long, depending on what sort of topics
11:53
you want to cover. Yeah.
11:56
And a lot of that, you know, comes down to to my
11:59
responsibility really to try and produce something that is, you
12:03
know, easy enough to understand, digestible but not superficial.
12:07
I suppose at the end is the sort of thing you want to produce.
12:10
And in my own mind, it seems to me you're looking at it from the
12:14
beginning. You think what, what sort of
12:15
thing will we land with? I'm hoping we might be able to
12:19
come back with almost a sort of fans charter, you know, a
12:25
Hippocratic Oak, if you like, of like music, something where
12:28
where we should say everybody involved in the live music
12:31
factor, from the small venues to the big promoters to the to the
12:35
huge artists to the, you know, the everybody should be able to
12:38
agree that this is a set of values We all to be working to
12:44
when we're dealing with fans. We shouldn't be treating them as
12:47
an afterthought when they are actually the heart and soul.
12:50
And the very reason, you know, you can have a live music event.
12:54
It's no good. It's no fans turn up and people
12:56
don't come along. You know, it's it's not it's not
12:59
a live music event. It's not a gig.
13:01
And it seems to me very often that fans are almost considered
13:06
as a sort of unnecessary requirement for a gig rather
13:10
than the actual essential ingredient, you know, for a good
13:13
gig. And that goes from everything
13:16
from accessibility to gigs to ticketing and the way that, you
13:20
know, ticketing is undertaken for the transport to and from,
13:24
you know, events, You know, all those sorts of things seem to be
13:29
sometimes a complete afterthought when someone's
13:32
putting on a putting on a gig. And everyone ought to be really
13:35
able to agree, you know, we're not going to RIP off the bands.
13:38
But actually very often that is not the case as we know.
13:42
And I think early, some of the early returns I've seen from the
13:45
survey we put out some of the question, you know, suggest that
13:48
a lot of people are concerned about ticket prices.
13:51
That's not surprised, I suppose. You know, we're all concerned
13:53
about price and so on, but they're also concerned about,
13:56
you know, the hidden parts of ticket prices there, you know,
13:58
the add-ons, the booking fees and all those sorts of things.
14:01
They're very supportive actually, the of so far of the
14:05
add on. That's the levy which you've,
14:07
you know, the new live levy which you've, I know you're
14:10
involved with, with lies and new charity that is, is there to
14:13
administer that levy to help support brass roots music venues
14:16
and so on. But they're very suspicious of
14:19
things like booking fees. Where do they go and where
14:21
transparency, you know, for the fan I think is a really
14:24
important thing. And I am, I'm hoping to try and
14:27
get as much buying as possible from people say we will, you
14:31
know, adhere to this set of values when we're dealing with
14:33
fans. Yeah, it does.
14:35
There's so much to pick up from from that answer, including the
14:39
fact that when you get to this part in the survey, I will be
14:43
amazingly, I mean, I'll be, I'd be shocked if more than four
14:49
people, however many thousands of people answer this survey.
14:52
I would be stunned if more than say four people when it comes to
14:56
the question about do you think how happy are you with print at
15:02
home costs? Because there's a whole list of
15:04
these are the costs added to your ticket, as you say,
15:06
there's, you know, the the contribution to grass roots
15:09
venues. There's the, you know, the book,
15:11
the standard booking fee, which I think most of us are sort of,
15:14
you know, resigned to now. But the idea of I'm sorry, I'm
15:18
having to pay to print this out at home.
15:21
If more than four people say, yeah, absolutely at home with
15:24
that, absolutely fine with that, I will be, I will be amazed.
15:28
But there is, I mean, what what you were just saying, which was
15:31
one of the things which struck me actually as, as I went
15:34
through the survey is it does almost take you on the whole
15:38
journey of a gig because it talks about, you know, buying
15:40
the ticket, different aspects of buying the ticket.
15:44
And it talks about what, which sort of venues you go to, which
15:48
ones you like. But as you say, also says, you
15:51
know, how easy is it to get to and you know what, and what's
15:55
the public transport like And how safe do you actually feel
16:00
late at night on a bus, if there's a bus, which I think is,
16:04
is going to create quite a picture, isn't it?
16:06
Quite a detailed picture of what the stumbling blocks, what the
16:10
good things are and what the stumbling blocks might be.
16:13
Yes, and a lot of those things are quite practical things too.
16:16
You know, they're not airy fairy concepts and and so they're
16:19
they're very practical things and and and it and it very
16:23
strongly comes back from the fans that these are things
16:25
they're concerned about. Now you've got this whole
16:26
movement, it seems to be around the country, you know, the music
16:29
cities movement where local authorities saying we want to be
16:34
thought of as a Music City through in Cardiff where I live.
16:37
But you know, Liverpool, Manchester, all these sorts of
16:39
Brasco, all these places they badge themselves.
16:42
We are music cities. We want to be known for having a
16:45
really great music scene in our city.
16:49
OK, that's fine. But if you can't get a bus home
16:53
at the end of the kick because you have there's no buses after
16:57
10:00 or if the train starts running, you know, and, and yet
17:01
the gigs not ending until 11:00 or something like that, then how
17:04
can you badge yourself as a, as a Music City?
17:07
And similarly, you know, if you're, if you're having big
17:09
events and a local authority council is working with a big
17:13
promoter, you know, Live Nation or somebody like that about
17:16
putting an event on if the accessibility is not accepted,
17:22
you know, if you're disabled, you can't go to the event, not
17:24
very good accessibility. You know, if people are getting
17:29
ripped off in the in the ticketing process by fees, you
17:34
know, printed old fees and things that, you know, really
17:36
are just basically a shakedown of the fan rather than actual
17:40
genuine cost to the business, then the local authority, it
17:44
seems to me are in a good position to say, well, we
17:47
badging ourselves as a Music City that must represent certain
17:50
values as well. And and therefore we're going to
17:52
insist that the bus buses run, you know, on time, late at
17:56
night, that people can get home. We're going to insist that the
17:58
promoters adhere to certain standards and treat fans in a
18:01
certain way. And in that way, I think, you
18:05
know, there's an actual lever there with which we can try and
18:08
help move things on a bit. Because the local council is
18:10
actually involved in wanting to have a successful local music
18:13
industry. And they themselves, you know,
18:15
shouldn't be, you know, allowing people to open up next to a
18:19
venue, you know, you know, some residential things, mention an
18:23
existing venue and then try and shut the venue down for making
18:26
noise. You know, that sort of thing is
18:27
the sort of thing that local councils can have some influence
18:30
over. It's interesting how much of
18:32
this is interlinked as well, don't you think?
18:34
This is going off at a slight tangent, but in terms of being
18:38
able to get to a gig on public transport in this day and age
18:42
where we're finding tours are half the length of what they
18:45
were 30 years ago. And there are certain towns
18:48
which are now appear appear to be less utilised by booking
18:56
agents or bands. So certain, certain towns are
18:59
getting bypassed, so the people in that town then have to get on
19:04
a bus or a train to go to the next town where there are still
19:08
gigs. So we're creating more of an
19:10
audience that has to move around.
19:12
And it's that audience where you know, if you used to have a
19:16
venue in Bath, Bath Bath Moles. If Bath Moles shuts then
19:20
everyone in Bath has got to get on a train to Bristol and
19:23
there's got to be a train late enough home from Bristol
19:27
otherwise otherwise you're scuppered on you.
19:30
Exactly. I mean, as I say, you know,
19:31
Cardiff is, is my, there's a lot of, there's a lot of
19:35
concentrated gigs in, in, in cities these days, It's true.
19:39
And towns and places are definitely losing out.
19:42
But if that is going to happen, you've got to have those public
19:45
transport links and they've all got to, to work for people to do
19:48
it, people be able to travel. But secondly, we also need to
19:52
think about why is that happening or what can we do
19:54
perhaps to try and re energize and reinvigorate what's going on
19:58
in some of the smaller, you know, towns and cities that are
20:02
losing out. And, you know, I was thinking
20:05
about this the other day and talking to some some people.
20:07
Interesting thing about the music industry, I think, is how
20:10
in some ways there isn't such a direct connection in the music
20:14
industry between who you support, the band you support,
20:18
the artists you want to go and see sometimes, and the fan you
20:21
know in football. You're a Cardiff City supporter,
20:23
you're a Liverpool supporter, whatever it is.
20:25
And it's a very sort of direct connection in music that that
20:29
that there's a sort of, there's certain barriers between the fan
20:33
and the artists that they love and that they support.
20:36
Whether that barrier is that, you know, the promoter, the gig,
20:39
or whether that barrier is the, the ticket platform or whether
20:42
that barrier is the record label themselves or the management and
20:46
so on. I think with all the technology
20:48
we have these days, there must be loads of fans out there who
20:52
if they were connected to more directly with them, with the
20:55
artists and were, you know, you know that.
20:58
And there was a continuing dialogue on going on that if
21:01
that artist actually then put on a gig in their little town,
21:04
they'd actually find they did have an audience there that was,
21:06
you know, you know, would come and see them.
21:08
But somewhere other it seems to me in the music industry, and
21:11
people said this to me, that that the music industry always
21:14
seems to put up some little layer of a barrier between the
21:17
fan on the artists themselves. It's interesting.
21:20
So I hadn't thought about that really.
21:22
I wonder whether we transfer, you know, love maybe from the
21:26
bands, you know, or the, you know, the football club from
21:30
from the band to maybe actually just the place, the venue.
21:34
You know, that you will support Bedford or Squires like you
21:38
would support your local football team more than maybe
21:42
the away teams who are the bands that are on tour.
21:44
I don't know. Maybe that's.
21:45
I think it's. I think it's a reasonable
21:47
analogy. I think there's a lot of truth
21:49
in that as well. Yeah, I think people do really
21:51
love and support particular venues.
21:55
But I still think that, you know, making that direct
21:58
connection between the artist and the fan is something that we
22:01
could encourage. And there are there are sort of
22:03
people out there who are trying to build those sorts of
22:05
alliances now to make sure that fans have a more direct
22:09
connection and that their experience when they even when
22:12
they go and buy a ticket isn't, isn't as awful as it seems to be
22:15
for lots of people from their responses and survey.
22:17
Another thing which is obviously very relevant, which is included
22:22
in the survey is the resale of tickets and what can be done to
22:28
make that a better experience for fans.
22:32
Because there's AI mean there is an ongoing debate, isn't there
22:36
behind the scenes at the moment where we're expecting some
22:39
announcement of this survey into ticket resale.
22:43
But that is what that's a big subject at the moment, obviously
22:47
coming off the back of big shows like the Oasis gigs.
22:52
But I imagine that's going to be a very, yeah, a very big issue
22:57
once you get to the end of this. Yeah, I, it will be, I mean,
23:00
interestingly, I think the Oasis tour thing was really
23:05
interesting, I think. And, and that's, and that's
23:07
actually I think caused a little bit of a reset in the, in the,
23:12
in the live industry because we were on a pathway, I think
23:15
towards a situation that is quite common in, in America, in
23:19
particular towards this idea of surge pricing.
23:21
You know, in ticketing this idea, like, you know, when you,
23:24
when you get on an aeroplane, you buy your ticket a couple of
23:26
months in advance, it might be 1 price.
23:28
But as you get closer to the to the flight itself, the price
23:31
goes up as the demand and supply vary.
23:34
And so you might sat next to someone on an airplane and
23:37
you've paid a completely different price for the ticket
23:39
for the same for the seat. I think there seems to be a kind
23:44
of visceral hatred for that idea for a gig amongst people.
23:47
And I think it's partly to do with the fact that the gig is
23:50
more of a communal experience than a flight really, isn't it?
23:52
You know, you're not, you're not there to sort of have a
23:54
religious kind of epiphany when you catch and fight is trying to
23:57
get from A to B and hopefully do so in reasonable comfort.
24:00
But the A gig is a completely different thing.
24:03
So people really respond very badly to that idea.
24:06
And the interesting thing was, of course, Ticketmaster were
24:09
accused of surge pricing during the Oasis gig sale.
24:13
In fact, what was going on was something rather different and
24:16
the Competition and Markets Authority had looked into it.
24:19
They're actually admitting people into the ticket sale,
24:22
saying the price of ticket is what whatever £100 and then
24:26
saying as you go and say what should we run out of £100
24:29
tickets but we can give you a ticket for £150.
24:32
But it was exactly the same ticket really.
24:34
They just, you know, dress it up in a different way.
24:37
If they say that's not surge, you know, there were only ever
24:40
that number of tickets available at £100.
24:42
So it's not research. But the point is when you went
24:45
into that cell, you didn't know that was going to happen.
24:47
And that's the point. Yet you need transparency and
24:50
clarity. That's what fans want, you know,
24:52
out of the situation. And I think it invidious to sell
24:56
the same ticket at two different prices, you know, and the same
24:58
sort of seated or or place in the gig at the two different
25:01
prices. And it's certainly invidious to
25:04
put smoke and mirrors around it. I'm trying to pretend, you know,
25:07
to the fan it's something that it actually isn't.
25:10
The other issue you were mentioning.
25:12
Sorry, it's a long answer, Steve, but there's loads in
25:14
this, isn't it? Is, is, is is more the secondary
25:16
ticketing thing when you buy a ticket for resale.
25:20
And the government has said, and they haven't announced the
25:23
details of it has said that it does intend already to act to
25:27
restrict, you know, ticket resale and not have a free for
25:31
all. Like you see tickets on via Gogo
25:34
advertised for, you know, £1000 and all that sort of thing.
25:36
Not not have a free for all, but have a properly regulated
25:40
secondary ticket market where if there is a markup in the price,
25:44
it would be a reasonable one to cover in costs or whatever, but
25:47
not sort of an outrageous bit of just ripping fans off.
25:51
So it'll be interesting to see the details of that proposals.
25:54
Certainly when the survey comes out, we'll see where the
25:56
government but you buy them. But I'm sure this survey and and
25:59
the report following it will happen to say on that subject as
26:02
well. When you get, when you do
26:05
finally try to make sense of the findings, what what, what are
26:08
you hoping that you'll see? Is it?
26:12
Are you looking for general trends or answers for two
26:15
specific questions, or a mixture of the two?
26:20
Yeah, I think it is a mixture of the two.
26:22
There are very, very particular things that, you know, people
26:25
are concerned about, but they're also, you know, more general
26:29
trends that are going on in around live music and gigs and
26:32
so on. As I said, I'm hoping that what
26:34
will be clear are the sorts of things that we ought to be able
26:38
to get. And I know this is probably
26:40
possibly idealistic, but we ought to be able to get, you
26:43
know, everybody in the industry to buy into the notion that fans
26:46
should be treated fairly. You know, I accept it's a
26:51
business. You know, people have got to
26:52
make money out of it. You know, that promoters need to
26:55
take their cut. The venue needs their cut.
26:58
The artist should be paid. You know, I'm creative.
27:00
Remuneration is my whole thing. I want musicians actually to get
27:03
paid, you know, out of all this. And I think all I think fans and
27:07
let's, you know, there are sort of leftover from the three
27:10
festival movement or something, you know, they understand you've
27:13
got to pay, you know, to and it's right that you should pay
27:16
and it's right. The musicians should get
27:17
rewarded for their labour as often they're the only person in
27:19
the room who doesn't get paid when you go to an event, he's
27:22
the actual musician. When the bar starts getting
27:24
paid, the cleaners are getting paid, the doorman's getting
27:27
paid. But you say, would you play for
27:29
free? You know, I've always thought
27:30
that's that's crazy. It is labour when you when you
27:33
when you when you make music. But I would have thought that,
27:38
you know, everybody could agree that that's fair enough, but
27:42
what shouldn't be happening in all of that is that you're
27:45
hiding things from the fans. And, you know, when we were
27:49
talking earlier on about the booking fees thing, I think I've
27:52
asked people this question. And I don't think I've ever come
27:56
across anybody who's just a music fan who actually knows the
27:59
answer to it, which is where do you think the money goes on all
28:04
these additional fees now? What do you think pays for and
28:08
people genuinely don't know they'd, some of them think, does
28:11
it go, you know, on paying for the platform that the ticket is
28:14
being advertised on and being sold through?
28:17
Yeah, in part some of it might go to that, but where else does
28:20
it go? A lot of people don't realize
28:23
that actually in some instances, a chunk of that looking for you
28:27
will be going to the artist themselves.
28:30
Meanwhile, the artists will be there, you know, saying it's
28:33
outrageous ticket prices. I'm going to keep the ticket
28:36
prices down at our gigs. And yet round the other side as
28:41
the, as the customers on their way out the website and bought
28:43
the ticket and they're getting shaken down.
28:45
One of the people shaking them down is the artist themselves.
28:47
You're taking the third of the booking fee or something like
28:49
that. So transparency, you know,
28:52
clarity, treating people fairly and not just treating them as an
28:55
opportunity to shake them down, I think is something fans
28:58
really, really a hankering aspect.
29:00
And this obviously are crucially, once the once the
29:04
scores are in it's there. I I wonder how how much pressure
29:10
there is going to be on. Well, I guess yourself.
29:12
Everyone is involved in it in making sure that this does
29:15
translate into some conversations that government.
29:18
Otherwise, the more cynical of the your music fan will go.
29:22
Look, you see, we did this. We told them what we thought and
29:26
they didn't do anything about it.
29:27
So something's going to have to happen or at least be discussed,
29:33
doesn't it? At the end of this.
29:34
And This is why, you know, I encourage everyone to fill this
29:37
in because the more people that do, you know, the more powerful
29:40
it becomes as a as a piece of data.
29:42
But you know, but then at the other end of it, you know,
29:45
someone's got to go. Crikey, there was, there's,
29:48
there's actually, there's a real appetite from the fans
29:50
themselves. They they do actually want to
29:53
have their voices heard. We're going to have to do
29:55
something about this. Yeah, I mean, when we did the
29:59
music streaming report a few years back, I mean, I would have
30:03
liked to see much more radical change coming out of that than
30:05
actually happened. But, you know, in, sometimes in,
30:09
in, in politics, Yeah. You.
30:12
Well, you can't always get what you want to to quote the whole
30:14
song, but you get what you need sometimes.
30:16
But in the in the music streaming thing, we didn't, not
30:19
every recommendation we made in that report was implemented.
30:22
I actually tried to change the law through a private members
30:24
bill to improve payouts on copyright for, you know, under
30:29
copyright law for streaming to artists.
30:31
But what did happen was a whole series of working groups were
30:34
set up within the part of government that's called the
30:37
Intellectual Property Office, which is really the the
30:40
organization that's there to make sure that, you know, people
30:43
who who have own a copyright and something like a song, for
30:46
example, you know, actually get paid out.
30:48
And that's, that's only exists because the law says they should
30:51
get paid out. Doesn't, you know, exist in
30:53
nature itself. And, you know, lots of groups
30:57
were set up and there's been huge improvements, for example,
30:59
in the transparency of the data that, you know, people like
31:03
Spotify have that ensures people get paid.
31:06
There's been this, you know, this community set up about
31:10
remuneration, which is still working, what's already produced
31:13
this songwriters payment, which I was talking about earlier.
31:16
So things happen. And, you know, it's about
31:19
turning the dial basically and turning that dial in the
31:22
direction of the fan. And I'm very confident that the
31:26
government will actually listen to what we have to say.
31:29
And I'm hoping I can make recommendations.
31:31
They're not, you know, out, out with the theories
31:33
recommendations, but our recommendations that are
31:35
practical, that national government, local government and
31:39
the industry itself can get on board.
31:41
With and as well, obviously the surveys up online, I imagine
31:46
since you've been in post doing this, you've been out talking to
31:49
people around the country as well.
31:51
Just trying to get a feel for what fans think.
31:55
Yes, I haven't. I mean, last week I was down at,
32:00
you know, near my own patch down at the Soon festival, speaking
32:04
there on a panel in Cardiff. Been over to the output event
32:09
over in Belfast as well, which was really just to get
32:12
perspective. Really vibrant music being in
32:14
Belfast. Fantastic to see what's going on
32:17
there. I'm also due to do to get out to
32:21
Glasgow and to Manchester in the in the coming weeks, also doing
32:26
something in the Ministry of Sound in London.
32:28
You would want to make sure we get in that perspective as well.
32:31
And not just the perspective of, you know, small grassroot music
32:34
venues, but also, you know, it's a wider nightlife including
32:38
gloves and electronic music and so on.
32:41
And all of that's good. Another thing that actually
32:45
that's being done by the Clarks who work for the committee when
32:50
the survey it is, and I think spare time Parliament's ever
32:53
done this because, you know, not always cutting edge of things.
32:56
And this isn't exactly cutting edge.
32:57
But the trouble with social media is, you know, it's a it's
33:02
a it's an actual toxic cesspit sometimes these days and say,
33:05
and you, you put anything on there about politics and all
33:08
you'll just get is abuse from bots from Russia or, you know,
33:11
somewhere like that. But there is underneath that
33:14
actually groups of people on social media are really
33:16
interested in live music and want to have their say.
33:19
And if you go on things like Reddit and you look into some of
33:22
these subgroups on Reddit, there are people who are just, you
33:24
know, who are discussing their live music experiences.
33:27
And so we've managed to, you know, get in touch with the, you
33:31
know, the those groups and have really good level of response
33:35
that the hearts in the committee have been really encouraged by
33:38
the fact that you go there and what you get back is, yeah, we'd
33:41
like to have our voice heard in this.
33:43
And they've been getting a response rate.
33:45
You know, they're expecting maybe a, you expect maybe a 5%
33:48
response rate when you put a survey, they'd be getting like
33:50
30% been going out on these groups.
33:53
So we're trying to find other ways of engaging with people,
33:57
you know, then just put in the survey up online and we've also
34:01
distributed around the country to different groups who are
34:04
interested and sort of do it yourself kind of, you know,
34:08
event thing which they can put on.
34:09
So I'm hoping some of them bear some truth as well.
34:13
So we have to wait and see. And I mean, just going back to
34:16
something just before we let you go from earlier on in the
34:20
conversation talking about, you know, grassroots and our love of
34:22
grassroots venues. And I, and I guess you, you've
34:25
seen, you've seen how difficult it is for a lot of small venues
34:30
at the moment. It's, it's not an easy or
34:32
comfortable time, is it for venues with smaller capacities?
34:35
So I mean, out of these conversations, we hope, we hope
34:40
to find some ways of helping, helping them out or finding ways
34:45
where they can help themselves. Maybe some of those venues will
34:49
learn that they've got audiences that maybe don't go, that could
34:53
go. Absolutely, and part what I was
34:56
talking about was the, you know, about more direct connection
35:00
with the fans. Actually venues themselves, more
35:02
venues they are a lot of them are very good at.
35:05
There's some great work being done by people like the Music
35:06
venues Trust and the Independent venues community group who who
35:10
try to encourage venues to do other things during the day, you
35:12
know, and have community event and get people used to going in
35:15
to the building and feeling that it's a place they can go to even
35:18
if they've never been to a gig there.
35:19
People, things like that can be can be very, very useful.
35:23
So all of that is is tremendously important and I'm
35:27
hoping that, you know, this can be part of it.
35:29
I'm doing an event actually in a place called the Pub in Newport,
35:32
which is a great venue, which actually now is owned through,
35:36
you know, the work with the music venues Trust is actually,
35:39
you know, owned. The freehold is owned by the
35:41
community themselves. Too often small venues are in a
35:42
Paris position because you know, once the lease runs out, along
35:46
comes someone else and says, oh, I'd rather put a shoe shop in
35:48
there or something. And you know, a well loved local
35:51
venue is gone, so encouraging those kinds of initiatives are
35:55
really important as well. Is that your favorite is my
35:58
final question. Is that your favorite grassroots
36:00
venue? Have you got a favorite
36:02
grassroots venue? If you say the Forum in
36:04
Tunbridge Wells, I'll know that Mark David from the Music Venue
36:07
Trust has bribed you before coming on.
36:09
Do you have a favorite grassroots venue?
36:13
I've never been to to He tried to entice me to go there.
36:15
I think it's an old public toilet, isn't it, or something.
36:18
Am I wrong or right about that? He's trying to entice me to go
36:21
along and perform. And he's on his, his sort of
36:23
Bowie tribute night or whatever they they have there.
36:25
But my favorite grassroots venue is a little converted old Chapel
36:31
in place called Pentuck on the Hill just outside Cardiff.
36:36
It's run by a guy called Howell Wiggly who who's he's just got a
36:41
tremendously winning formula there.
36:43
And I know this isn't enough for me to some people, but we
36:46
haven't mentioned this people. But there is a phenomenon known
36:48
as tribute bands out there that you know, some people scoff up,
36:52
but they do you know, quite a lot of musicians getting paid so
36:55
they can do their other bands and things that they really want
36:57
to do. So I never, I never scoff on
36:59
anything that means someone gets paid for playing music like, but
37:03
but he's, he seems to what got a winning formula there where it's
37:06
a lovely venue. People want to go there.
37:08
You go there early, if you go there an hour before the kick,
37:11
have a lovely pizza, which, you know, they they, they, they
37:14
provide that. He's got a lovely mixture of
37:17
different programming there. So, yeah, you get the tribute
37:20
bands, which, you know, bring a bit of money, but also you get
37:22
independent artists who, you know, come along for me.
37:25
I went to see. Yeah, I've been to quite a few
37:28
kids. The reason I went to see Cara
37:29
Dillon, you're a folk artist and a couple of weeks ago there and
37:33
from she's from Derry in Northern Ireland.
37:34
Originally she said something, you know, everyone artists
37:38
always at the exhale say, well, you know, thank you for coming
37:40
out this evening. You know, without the fans, you
37:42
know it wouldn't be a gig and you know you made the effort to
37:44
come out and then she said in a lovely Irish accent now sure,
37:47
what else would you be doing? And I think that's that's what
37:50
happens for you, you know, actually people, what else would
37:53
you be doing? You know, they're coming out and
37:55
get going to a gig. What?
37:56
Just get out there and do it. I thought I thought that was
37:58
lovely. But it's a super venue.
38:00
It's called Acapella, the venue, and it's just that, so Cardiff
38:04
and yeah, if you, if you ever get the chance, you, you got to
38:07
go. Excellent.
38:08
It's been lovely talking to you, Kevin.
38:10
Thank you for your time. Good luck with the survey, which
38:14
you can find on the government website.
38:16
If you go to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee page, then
38:19
click on fan LED survey, that'll that'll get you there.
38:22
We'll also put a link at the bottom of this.
38:26
And yes, thanks again for taking time to listen.
38:30
Everybody do go and fill this in.
38:32
It really will, I think, hopefully help shape how live
38:37
music is perceived. It's, it's down to us.
38:40
We're the, we're the people. We're instead of moaning about
38:42
stuff in the pub or at the back of the gig.
38:46
This is the chance. Speak now or forever hold your
38:48
peace. Thanks very much to Kevin
38:51
Brennan, our guest. Thanks for listening to this
38:53
extra edition of The Price of Music.
38:55
We'll be back with another regular show next week.
38:57
Till then, take care everyone. Cheerio.