Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / Yoko Ono at 93: Art, Sound, and the Legacy Revisited [Episode 359]

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Yoko Ono at 93: Art, Sound, and the Legacy Revisited [Episode 359] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

0:00
Speaker 1: Up next, we're celebrating Yoko Ono as she approaches her
0:03
Speaker 1: ninety third birthday, with new exhibitions and Beatles films bringing
0:07
Speaker 1: her back into the spotlight. We're joined by an author
0:10
Speaker 1: exploring her life impact and music, plus a preview of
0:13
Speaker 1: a brand new book on Yoko's groundbreaking sound.
0:17
Speaker 2: We're totally rock and roll. I mean gott to leave you.
0:21
Speaker 2: You're reading Little Hands says it's time to rock and roll.
0:24
Speaker 1: Roll up, I totally booked. Welcome back to book don
0:33
Speaker 1: rock the podcast for those about to read and rock.
0:35
Speaker 1: I'm Eric Seditch. We have a returning guest to the show.
0:39
Speaker 1: She is Madeline Bacaro, author of the biography In Your Mind,
0:44
Speaker 1: The Infinite Universe of Yoko Ono, and she's got a
0:48
Speaker 1: updated version of that book out. Also got some exciting
0:51
Speaker 1: news about a new Yoko book that we'll be coming
0:54
Speaker 1: out soon. Madeline, Welcome back to the show. Good to
0:56
Speaker 1: see you again.
0:57
Speaker 2: Thank you so so much.
0:59
Speaker 1: Yoko's ninety third birthday coming up right February eighteenth. Yeah,
1:03
Speaker 1: and she's back in the spotlight again. Art world, the
1:07
Speaker 1: Beatles slash film world. I want to get into all that,
1:10
Speaker 1: but let's start with your book in your mind. The
1:13
Speaker 1: Infinite Universe of Yoko Ono, which came out in twenty
1:16
Speaker 1: twenty one, and I had you on for that. There
1:18
Speaker 1: is now a new expanded ebook out, so tell us
1:21
Speaker 1: about that.
1:22
Speaker 2: People have been begging me to do the ebook, so
1:25
Speaker 2: I finally did it, and over the course of four
1:28
Speaker 2: years since the other one came out, I've added a
1:31
Speaker 2: lot more information throughout and in the hardcover as well.
1:34
Speaker 2: So this is the hardcover which you could only get
1:38
Speaker 2: exclusively to me at conceptualbooks dot com. And it's five
1:43
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty eight pages and it's everything you ever
1:46
Speaker 2: need to know artwork, films, music, philosophy, ancestry, upbringing and
1:53
Speaker 2: it's all super super interesting. It's amazing her life.
1:58
Speaker 1: Now. That is the updated edition you're holding there.
2:01
Speaker 2: Yes, it's the hardcover.
2:02
Speaker 1: So it's hardcover and ebook ebook, gotcha? Okay? Well, and
2:09
Speaker 1: people can listen to the episode where you talked about
2:12
Speaker 1: the original version of the book. That's episode one oh nine.
2:16
Speaker 1: Talk about your history with Yoko. You're a longtime fan.
2:19
Speaker 1: You were pen pals with the Oko.
2:21
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I started. I saw a picture of her
2:24
Speaker 2: in a magazine when I was ten years old and
2:27
Speaker 2: it was she was in front of her film Bottoms,
2:31
Speaker 2: which is naked behind kind of in close up, and
2:34
Speaker 2: I thought, wow, this is really kookie and it's Alt
2:36
Speaker 2: just doing something so strange. I love this, And she
2:39
Speaker 2: looked a litterally sly in the picture, and I just
2:41
Speaker 2: always kept it because I just wanted to know who
2:44
Speaker 2: she was, and I heard she was Japanese. And then
2:46
Speaker 2: about a year later, I hear she's with John Lennon.
2:50
Speaker 2: I get the White album, and you know she's supposedly
2:53
Speaker 2: you know, singing on there. And so it was great.
2:57
Speaker 2: I could follow them every day in the news whatever
2:59
Speaker 2: they want doing, and it was really every day something else,
3:03
Speaker 2: a new single, a new album, a new you know,
3:07
Speaker 2: stunt of publicity thing and bedans for peace and planting
3:11
Speaker 2: acorns and concerts. It was just one thing after another,
3:15
Speaker 2: and tons and tons of interviews and I saved all
3:18
Speaker 2: of those. I saved every article I could find, every interview,
3:22
Speaker 2: and eventually, when I started writing about her, those were
3:27
Speaker 2: really helpful to have. And then I gathered all my
3:31
Speaker 2: articles together and realized I could possibly have a book here,
3:36
Speaker 2: and took a couple of years to really put it
3:38
Speaker 2: together and flesh it out.
3:40
Speaker 1: What was it about Yoko that you connected with, just
3:43
Speaker 1: that she.
3:44
Speaker 2: Was so unique. I'm an only child, and I could
3:48
Speaker 2: sense her loneliness and her She had a horrible childhood,
3:53
Speaker 2: so I could see a bit of her pain. But
3:54
Speaker 2: she was always very whimsical about, you know, the way
3:58
Speaker 2: she portrayed her work, always asking you to participate in it,
4:03
Speaker 2: and there was always some elements of healing in it.
4:05
Speaker 2: So I always gravitated toward that.
4:08
Speaker 1: Much of what's been documented regarding Yoko or the year
4:11
Speaker 1: she's been with John, but your book covers her entire life.
4:17
Speaker 1: So you mentioned childhood, where's Yoko from? What were her
4:20
Speaker 1: childhood and teen years like?
4:22
Speaker 2: Well, she was born in Japan nineteen thirty three and
4:27
Speaker 2: she was twelve years old when America bombs Tokyo where
4:32
Speaker 2: she was living with her parents, and she had to
4:35
Speaker 2: they were sent Her and her younger siblings were sent
4:38
Speaker 2: to a farmhouse and the suburbs for shelter, and her
4:43
Speaker 2: mother didn't realize how dilapidated this farmhouse was when she
4:48
Speaker 2: arranged for them to go there, and it was really
4:50
Speaker 2: a mess and there was nothing around. They were given
4:55
Speaker 2: kimonos and jewelry to trade for food, but the people
4:59
Speaker 2: in the were all pretty much peasants and wouldn't trade
5:02
Speaker 2: with them. Everybody was hoarding food. It was this horrible situation.
5:06
Speaker 2: She saw a family go into the woodsity poors and
5:09
Speaker 2: mushrooms and they died. And she was just trying to
5:13
Speaker 2: keep her brother and sister happy and fed, and it
5:15
Speaker 2: was very, very hard, and this traumatized her her whole life.
5:19
Speaker 2: She was trying to imagine things. I mean, in the
5:23
Speaker 2: farm house, her brother was hungry and she said, well,
5:27
Speaker 2: what would you want to eat? And he said pizza.
5:30
Speaker 2: So she said, okay, imagine the ice cream, imagine the pizza,
5:33
Speaker 2: and he became happy. And she said, Wow, it is
5:37
Speaker 2: amazing what you can do in your mind. So that
5:40
Speaker 2: was the basis of all her work.
5:42
Speaker 1: Wow. What serious relationships did she have prior to John.
5:46
Speaker 2: She had a first husband who was also Japanese, toshi Ichianagi,
5:50
Speaker 2: and he was a composer and he was a colleague
5:55
Speaker 2: of John Cage, and she actually toured Japan with him
5:58
Speaker 2: and John Cage and Mayazumi and participated in their performances.
6:04
Speaker 2: But she wasn't happy doing that because she really wanted
6:06
Speaker 2: to do her own part. And they grew apart and
6:11
Speaker 2: she met an entrepreneur from America. Tony Coxy, actually sought
6:16
Speaker 2: her out because he had heard about her work, and
6:19
Speaker 2: he found her into Japan in a hospital. She had
6:23
Speaker 2: been admitted because she was very, very depressed. She had
6:28
Speaker 2: tried to commit suicide actually, and he went over there
6:30
Speaker 2: and got her out of the hospital and became her
6:33
Speaker 2: promoter and husband, and they did some work in Japan,
6:37
Speaker 2: and they came to New York and did all work there,
6:39
Speaker 2: and then they went to London, and that's when everything
6:42
Speaker 2: happens with John Lennon.
6:44
Speaker 1: Yes, take us back to that day when they met.
6:47
Speaker 2: It was November nineteen sixty six, and she was getting
6:51
Speaker 2: her exhibition ready in the basement of Indica Gallery, which
6:55
Speaker 2: is owned by John Dunbar, and it was kind of
7:00
Speaker 2: it was all white, and everything was really strange. There
7:03
Speaker 2: was a ladder going up to the ceiling with a
7:07
Speaker 2: magnifying glass hanging from it, and when John climbed the
7:11
Speaker 2: ladder and he looked through the glass, he saw the
7:13
Speaker 2: tiny little letters that said yes. And that was so
7:17
Speaker 2: encouraging to him because he was very pessimistic about art
7:21
Speaker 2: and the whole scene. And he just really fell in
7:24
Speaker 2: love with all her ideas and her work, and that's
7:27
Speaker 2: when they really clicked.
7:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, they clicked. He was married to Cynthia at the time.
7:33
Speaker 2: They were both married with small children at the time,
7:36
Speaker 2: so they're very hesitant to delve into a relationship.
7:42
Speaker 1: One of the biggest narratives around Yoko Ono is her
7:44
Speaker 1: relationship with the Beatles through her relationship with John. What
7:48
Speaker 1: are the biggest misconceptions about her role in that story?
7:51
Speaker 1: What does history actually show?
7:53
Speaker 2: History shows and the Beatles have actually stated that, you know,
7:57
Speaker 2: they were on the verge of breaking up before she
8:01
Speaker 2: entered the picture, and there was so many tensions due
8:05
Speaker 2: to managerial problems, George wanting to put out his own songs.
8:10
Speaker 2: He had a double triple album pretty much ready to
8:14
Speaker 2: go all things must pass, and he was feeling stifled
8:17
Speaker 2: in the group. Everybody was upset, except maybe Paul. You know,
8:22
Speaker 2: Paul wanted to continue, but you know, she just came
8:25
Speaker 2: along at that time. But actually she didn't want the
8:29
Speaker 2: Beatles to break up. When John told her he was
8:32
Speaker 2: leaving the Beatles, he actually turned to her and said, okay,
8:36
Speaker 2: now it's just you and me, and she was devastated.
8:40
Speaker 2: She said, well, wait a minute, what's he going to
8:42
Speaker 2: do when what's he going to be preoccupied with? Well,
8:44
Speaker 2: I'm doing my work because she was first and foremost
8:47
Speaker 2: an artist, and she didn't know they were going to
8:50
Speaker 2: collaborate so well and hit the ground running. But they
8:53
Speaker 2: did and everything was okay. But you know, she was
8:57
Speaker 2: really nervous there.
8:59
Speaker 1: And that goes against the narrative that people thought that
9:01
Speaker 1: she was looking to break up the Beatles.
9:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in the book, I have quotes from hundreds
9:07
Speaker 2: of quotes, mostly from her, but a lot from you know,
9:10
Speaker 2: John Paul, people that worked with them, Ringo even and
9:16
Speaker 2: just musicians who worked with her and people who knew her,
9:19
Speaker 2: and it all they all weave the story and it's
9:22
Speaker 2: quotes from the time, So it's not anything st people
9:25
Speaker 2: are saying in hindsight and speculating. It's all, you know,
9:29
Speaker 2: it's how the whole story happened.
9:32
Speaker 1: How did she get along with the rest of the
9:34
Speaker 1: members of the band, Ringo, Paul, and George.
9:37
Speaker 2: In the beginning, she there's an audio tape of her saying,
9:40
Speaker 2: you know, Paul and John are so so close, and
9:42
Speaker 2: Paul has been very respectful to me. He's almost like
9:45
Speaker 2: a brother. It's really really nice like in the beginning,
9:48
Speaker 2: and then you know, when John brought her into the studio,
9:53
Speaker 2: there was some animosity because nobody had really brought their
9:56
Speaker 2: others into the studio. But Ringo was always very cool
10:02
Speaker 2: with her. He loves her. They all have that piece
10:04
Speaker 2: and love vibe going, and you know, he visits her
10:07
Speaker 2: whenever he's in New York. And Ringo was always cool.
10:11
Speaker 2: And it was just really Paul that had a big
10:12
Speaker 2: problem and George, you know, but Paul came around later
10:16
Speaker 2: and said, look, if he really loves this woman, yeah,
10:20
Speaker 2: I'm not going to fight it anymore. So that was that.
10:24
Speaker 1: What are the insights or discoveries from the expanded ebook
10:28
Speaker 1: edition that stand out?
10:29
Speaker 2: Well, every chapter has something additional, like oh this quote,
10:33
Speaker 2: you know, she said this about this, and I talk
10:35
Speaker 2: about that, so I would, you know, insert all those
10:38
Speaker 2: But a little bit of it is that I've since
10:42
Speaker 2: spoken to her daughter, who had been missing for so long,
10:46
Speaker 2: and she gave me a little bit more insight. And
10:49
Speaker 2: you know, more quotes from Sean her Son's who's really
10:53
Speaker 2: supporting the book. He loves it, and you know, just
10:56
Speaker 2: a lot of details.
10:59
Speaker 1: A lot more de Yeah tell us about the daughter.
11:02
Speaker 1: Is that from her first marriage.
11:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, the daughter from her first marriage, who her husband
11:08
Speaker 2: had absconded with the child's because it turns out, you know,
11:11
Speaker 2: the husband and child were very very close. He had
11:14
Speaker 2: raised her while Yoka was basically doing all the work,
11:18
Speaker 2: you know, her art, and just like you know, when
11:22
Speaker 2: she was with John, he raised their son Sean while
11:26
Speaker 2: Yoga did the business. But it didn't mean Yoko didn't
11:30
Speaker 2: love the child. She did, and he, the husband, was
11:35
Speaker 2: intimidated by the relationship with John and she He thought
11:38
Speaker 2: that eventually they would take the daughter and you know,
11:42
Speaker 2: he wouldn't be able to see her again. So he
11:44
Speaker 2: left with her and they ended up. Nobody knew this
11:48
Speaker 2: until recently, that they ended up inside of a cult
11:51
Speaker 2: where he was kind of hiding and wow, yeah, it's
11:56
Speaker 2: her life story is just so insane, and they and
12:01
Speaker 2: then they became disillusioned with that and they tried, they left,
12:05
Speaker 2: and he still hid the child because he was under
12:09
Speaker 2: this delusion that Yoko was still going to sue him
12:13
Speaker 2: or arrest him when if they became public. But as
12:18
Speaker 2: soon as the daughter was old enough and was having
12:20
Speaker 2: her first child, she said, you know, I'm really I
12:23
Speaker 2: have to contact my mother, and she did, and it
12:25
Speaker 2: was in the nineties, and then they've since become very very.
12:28
Speaker 1: Close again, okay, very close. What's her name?
12:31
Speaker 2: Kyoko?
12:32
Speaker 1: Kyoko? Yeah, okay, Oh, that's right, isn't uh? In one
12:36
Speaker 1: of John's songs, he says, that's Yoko, So you're right, right, right, yes, yes, okay.
12:43
Speaker 1: Well that's a good transition into the upcoming book. You
12:46
Speaker 1: have a new book coming out which is exclusively about
12:50
Speaker 1: Yoko's music. Talk about what's in that book and when
12:52
Speaker 1: can we expect to see that come out.
12:54
Speaker 2: The biography has chapters about every album and every song
12:58
Speaker 2: pretty much, you know, in detail. But I was thinking
13:02
Speaker 2: about it and I wanted to speak with musicians and
13:05
Speaker 2: people who were influenced by her as well and bands
13:08
Speaker 2: that have covered her work. So this is going to
13:12
Speaker 2: be listen in the musical universe of Yokohana. It's going
13:17
Speaker 2: to be exclusively about her music. And I'm working on
13:20
Speaker 2: it and it'll be about a year or so when
13:23
Speaker 2: this comes up.
13:24
Speaker 1: Okay, but yeah, yeah, who does that artwork for the cover?
13:27
Speaker 2: So yeah, the cover of this book is by an
13:30
Speaker 2: Australian artist, Kat MacInnis, and she's really great. She does whimsical.
13:37
Speaker 2: It was a greeting card. I found it online and
13:39
Speaker 2: I asked her if she would lend it to me
13:42
Speaker 2: for the cover, and she was gracious enough, and she
13:44
Speaker 2: does all kinds of She has a website and she
13:47
Speaker 2: has a gift wrapping paper and cards that she designs.
13:50
Speaker 2: And then I asked her to make like a nighttime
13:52
Speaker 2: version for my music book and she made me this one.
13:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great, it's great, lovely.
13:57
Speaker 2: I love it.
13:58
Speaker 1: What are the musicians that you Who are the musicians
14:02
Speaker 1: that you spoke with?
14:03
Speaker 2: Jim Cultner? Actually he oh, yeah, the drummer of hundreds
14:07
Speaker 2: of classic records. I'm asking each one of them also,
14:10
Speaker 2: what's their favorite song by Yoko? So his answer to
14:14
Speaker 2: me was so great. He said, you know, I've been
14:17
Speaker 2: on albums by hundreds of people and hundreds of bands,
14:23
Speaker 2: and I've played on the hundreds of songs. But my
14:25
Speaker 2: favorite album, not just song, not just the Yoko's, but
14:30
Speaker 2: of all time is Listen the Snow is Falling. So
14:34
Speaker 2: I love that. It's just this really beautiful, delicate song.
14:37
Speaker 2: And I'm so happy that he appreciates it so much.
14:40
Speaker 1: What album is that awesome?
14:42
Speaker 2: It's a single, it's the B side of Happy Christmas
14:45
Speaker 2: War is over. Okay, this beautiful song, it's so gorgeous.
14:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jim Calner. I don't know if there's been a
14:51
Speaker 1: documentary on him, but there should be. But then again,
14:54
Speaker 1: he's a very humble guy. Because at the story, I
14:56
Speaker 1: always think of the Traveling Wilbury's he's on that album.
14:59
Speaker 1: I know he's on the first, so I think he's
15:00
Speaker 1: on the second two. But he didn't want They said, well,
15:03
Speaker 1: you can become a Wilbury. We'll give you a name.
15:05
Speaker 1: He's like, no, I'm good, Jim Wilbury. You know, I'll
15:09
Speaker 1: stick in the background. You guys, you guys get can
15:12
Speaker 1: get the spotlight. Yeah, so that's called Jim Keltner. A
15:15
Speaker 1: lot of people that worked with Yoko in the studio.
15:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, people that worked with her, toured with her. And
15:21
Speaker 2: I'm gonna there are so many now cover albums, complete
15:25
Speaker 2: cover albums with just Yoko's songs, so that's gonna be great.
15:29
Speaker 2: David Byrne is on one of them, and of course
15:32
Speaker 2: Elvis Costello covered Walking on the n Ice a while ago.
15:35
Speaker 2: Harry Nilsen did some of her songs and if I
15:38
Speaker 2: don't interview them myself. I have quotes from in you know,
15:42
Speaker 2: if they're diseased, let's say, like Harry Nilson, I have
15:44
Speaker 2: quotes from him talking about those songs that he loved
15:47
Speaker 2: so much of hers that he covered and you know
15:51
Speaker 2: got the B fifty two's were influenced by harsonic youth
15:54
Speaker 2: ristin more. You know.
15:55
Speaker 1: Wow, Now walking on Thin Ice is your biggest commercial success.
16:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was number one. There's a It came out
16:06
Speaker 2: as a single in nineteen eighty one, two months after
16:08
Speaker 2: John was killed. He was carrying a tape of that
16:11
Speaker 2: song on him when he passed away, and he had
16:14
Speaker 2: been playing it over and over and over the night before,
16:17
Speaker 2: and that song on there's an on no box that
16:24
Speaker 2: came out. It was a compilation of first CD compilation
16:27
Speaker 2: of all of her work, and the version of it
16:32
Speaker 2: on there. They left the tape running at the end
16:36
Speaker 2: and John says, I think you just cut your first
16:38
Speaker 2: number one, Yogo. And then in two thousand and three
16:41
Speaker 2: that became a reality because it became number one on
16:44
Speaker 2: these dance charts of remixes that she put out, and
16:47
Speaker 2: again in twenty thirteen.
16:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, many people overlook Yoko's music. What makes your musical
16:52
Speaker 1: catalog so important historically in your opinion, I think it.
16:56
Speaker 2: Runs the gamut. You know, there's the avant garde stuff,
16:58
Speaker 2: and there's the beautiful ballads and heartbreaking, delicate songs and
17:04
Speaker 2: the wild freakout and she's got like some of the
17:07
Speaker 2: most amazing musicians in the world on those things. She's
17:10
Speaker 2: got Everic Clapton, Ringo John. You know, it's just to
17:14
Speaker 2: make Keltner so uh, there's something for everyone if people
17:20
Speaker 2: would just realize that she does more than the abrasive stuff, right.
17:26
Speaker 1: And I'm curious in what way she helped shape experimental
17:31
Speaker 1: or avant garde music, you know, the artists that came
17:34
Speaker 1: after her that were inspired by her. What are your
17:36
Speaker 1: thoughts on that. She must have some younger artists who
17:40
Speaker 1: are fans.
17:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the guys in Red Cross love her
17:46
Speaker 2: and they did actually a little tribute as the Tater Toss.
17:49
Speaker 2: They covered Yoko songs and there's like shown a Knife
17:54
Speaker 2: from Japan, as I said, sonic Youth. But there are
18:00
Speaker 2: other I'm they're they're bubbling up everywhere. You know, they're
18:03
Speaker 2: just bands that always cite her death. Cab for Cutie
18:07
Speaker 2: used one of her songs as an intro to their
18:09
Speaker 2: single and it's great Bands seven, it's just yeah, I'm
18:14
Speaker 2: just gonna dive really deep into it. And then there's
18:16
Speaker 2: ones that she collaborated with as well, so.
18:19
Speaker 1: She challenged traditional ideas about what music could be. With
18:24
Speaker 1: that said, which of her albums do you think maybe
18:26
Speaker 1: deserves a reappraisal by critics by fans that maybe was overlooked.
18:32
Speaker 2: I think the major one is the double album Approximately
18:36
Speaker 2: Infinite Universe. There's all kinds of songs on there, and
18:41
Speaker 2: those are the ones that people say, oh, I didn't
18:44
Speaker 2: know she did things like this. You know, those are great,
18:48
Speaker 2: and then the one after that, Feeling the Space. But
18:53
Speaker 2: her most recent two albums there's Between My Head and
18:58
Speaker 2: the Sky and Take Me to the Land of Hell,
19:00
Speaker 2: and those are really fantastic too. They have a wide variety.
19:05
Speaker 1: How many total albums did she release studio album?
19:07
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, you know, I actually count it, but
19:10
Speaker 2: look it up at one time, Yeah, I look at
19:12
Speaker 2: it than John had done, because she put out a
19:16
Speaker 2: couple of doubles and he was still doing single records.
19:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'll look it up here. While I do that.
19:23
Speaker 1: You mentioned artists who are fans of her, What about her? What?
19:28
Speaker 1: Who was she a fan of? What bands? Did she
19:30
Speaker 1: follow any anyone that would be surprising?
19:33
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny she okay, she was born in nineteen
19:36
Speaker 2: thirty three, so it's not like she had a turn
19:39
Speaker 2: table growing up and posters on her walls and went
19:41
Speaker 2: to concert. There was no rock and roll until, like
19:43
Speaker 2: you know, she was over twenty sure, and she was
19:46
Speaker 2: immersed in the culture of japan kabuki theater, you know,
19:52
Speaker 2: music accompanied by a koto, you know, that kind of
19:56
Speaker 2: shrill and ya andka music, And that's where she gets
20:03
Speaker 2: a lot of her tonality and her vocals is from
20:05
Speaker 2: Japanese vocalists. But she listens to everything, you know, tribal
20:10
Speaker 2: African folk. But it wasn't until John started playing her
20:16
Speaker 2: traditional rock and roll and Irish folk songs that she
20:22
Speaker 2: started appreciating. Yeah, that kind of music.
20:25
Speaker 1: He opened her mind and she opened his mind.
20:27
Speaker 2: Yeah. He gave her a beat and rained her ant
20:30
Speaker 2: a little bit, and she let him open up and
20:33
Speaker 2: go crazy. That's great.
20:35
Speaker 1: Fourteen studio albums, eight collaborative albums, forty singles. Do you
20:40
Speaker 1: think her music is better appreciated now than it was
20:43
Speaker 1: when it first came out.
20:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the people that appreciated it when it
20:47
Speaker 2: first came out, loved it so much, so our passion
20:51
Speaker 2: equals you know, how many people like it now. But yeah,
20:54
Speaker 2: I mean back then, when I would ask her or
20:58
Speaker 2: say I love this song show, you know, you know,
21:00
Speaker 2: she'd be surprised because to her, you know, people didn't
21:03
Speaker 2: really talk about it.
21:07
Speaker 1: Get every episode of Booked on Rock Commercial free by
21:10
Speaker 1: grabbing a backstage pass on Patreon. It's just five dollars
21:14
Speaker 1: a month and a great way to support the show.
21:16
Speaker 1: Check the show notes for the link, or visit bookdown
21:18
Speaker 1: rock dot com to sign up. Our guest is author
21:22
Speaker 1: and journalist Madeline Bacaro. Or Book In Your Mind The
21:24
Speaker 1: Infinite Universe of Yoko Ono, now available as an expanded
21:28
Speaker 1: ebook also the hardcover, and we'll put a link in
21:33
Speaker 1: the show notes is where people can go to get that.
21:36
Speaker 1: We've got a new book coming which covers Yoko's music.
21:39
Speaker 1: She's currently a spotlight again with major art exhibitions. So
21:42
Speaker 1: tell us about these.
21:44
Speaker 2: So right now, who's one at the MCA in Chicago.
21:47
Speaker 2: It's called Musicook the Mind and it's been traveling. It
21:50
Speaker 2: was at the Tate Modern it's going to La and X,
21:55
Speaker 2: I believe, but yeah, it's been in Germany and it's
22:00
Speaker 2: just incredible. It's a huge retrospective and there was one
22:06
Speaker 2: in New York in twenty fifteen. Is basically the same
22:10
Speaker 2: with added objects and things. But you walk through these
22:13
Speaker 2: white spaces and interact with the art and people are
22:18
Speaker 2: loving it. Millions of people are going through these spaces
22:21
Speaker 2: every day, and it's just amazing that people are not
22:26
Speaker 2: just aware now of who she is, but you know
22:29
Speaker 2: what the meaning behind her art. And I said that,
22:33
Speaker 2: like if you go and see a van Go exhibition
22:37
Speaker 2: or an expressive expressionist or surrealist exhibition, you don't come
22:41
Speaker 2: out going wow. That was for me. That involved me
22:45
Speaker 2: and that was kind of healing and I learned something valuable.
22:50
Speaker 2: So that's what you get from her work.
22:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, how would you describe her style? Do you have
22:55
Speaker 1: any of her art behind you there? I'm looking Actually
22:58
Speaker 1: I do that.
22:58
Speaker 2: That's a it's called sky puddle and it's a piece
23:02
Speaker 2: that's just supposed to be on the floor and it
23:05
Speaker 2: just reflects the sky. A lot of her stuff is
23:07
Speaker 2: about the sky. Also have a sky jigsaw puzzle piece
23:10
Speaker 2: of big one there of loose sight, and just a
23:14
Speaker 2: lot of things. You know, these are very few of
23:17
Speaker 2: the things that you can actually own and hold because
23:20
Speaker 2: most of it is imaginary or intangible.
23:23
Speaker 1: If someone only knows her through Beatles history, what's the
23:25
Speaker 1: first thing you'd want them to understand about her as
23:28
Speaker 1: an artist?
23:29
Speaker 2: As an artist, everything she's showing is very simplistic and
23:35
Speaker 2: very pure, but there's deep meaning behind each thing and
23:41
Speaker 2: it doesn't take long to really sit and understand it.
23:45
Speaker 2: And if you want to, my book explains most of it,
23:48
Speaker 2: and it's not. Once you see what it's about, you say, wow,
23:52
Speaker 2: I didn't real There's a postcard that's called a hole
23:55
Speaker 2: to see the Sky through, and you know, people just think, oh,
23:59
Speaker 2: this is KOOKI. It's a hole and can look up.
24:01
Speaker 2: But what it represents is what I was saying. In
24:04
Speaker 2: that farmhouse that was dilapidated and she's there hungry with
24:07
Speaker 2: her siblings, there was a hole in the roof and
24:10
Speaker 2: that was the only positive vision she had of the
24:15
Speaker 2: sky in the midst of this war. So she just
24:20
Speaker 2: does something simple like that and doesn't really explain it.
24:23
Speaker 2: But if you connect the dots, you see what it's
24:25
Speaker 2: really about.
24:26
Speaker 1: Well, that answers my question, because I wonder why her
24:29
Speaker 1: work resonates so strongly with modern audiences today. So she
24:34
Speaker 1: challenges you, but not to the point you're you're gonna
24:36
Speaker 1: get it if you.
24:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a slight challenge. But she's very humorous.
24:42
Speaker 2: She's she's like a zen master with like the wonderment
24:45
Speaker 2: of a child. Still, you know, she's why. She's smart,
24:48
Speaker 2: she's funny, she's brilliant, and that's what John loved about her.
24:52
Speaker 2: And listen, you know, John was her biggest fan. Her
24:54
Speaker 2: son Sean is our biggest fan now, and I just
24:57
Speaker 2: want to back them up and show people what she
25:01
Speaker 2: did well.
25:02
Speaker 1: Another facet of her that I think I respect the
25:04
Speaker 1: most would be just her emotional courage, you know, to
25:07
Speaker 1: have to to go through what she went through. You know,
25:10
Speaker 1: during that whole period, get people, you know, pointing a
25:14
Speaker 1: finger at her, and she dealt with a lot, and.
25:17
Speaker 2: Not just that. You know, the war could be horrible enough,
25:21
Speaker 2: and then people just lying about her in the press
25:25
Speaker 2: and attacking her, people pulling her hair, yelling at John
25:29
Speaker 2: to leave her, and then you know, you think John's
25:32
Speaker 2: death would be the worst of everything, but several you
25:35
Speaker 2: know people who were employed by her were stealing from her,
25:40
Speaker 2: kidnapping threats, death threats. She was living a nightmare after
25:44
Speaker 2: he died, not just because he was gone, but it
25:47
Speaker 2: was just a nightmare all around.
25:50
Speaker 1: Sam Mendez is directing these four films. It's a biopic
25:56
Speaker 1: series on the Beatles. Sony Pictures is doing it and
25:59
Speaker 1: Eat which movie focuses on a different band members perspective.
26:03
Speaker 1: It's titled The Beatles, a form film cinematic event scheduled
26:07
Speaker 1: for simultaneous theatrical release in April twenty twenty eight. So
26:11
Speaker 1: Cassi play the role of Yoko is Anna? So why
26:15
Speaker 1: I think I could pronounce that right? She's playing Yoko.
26:18
Speaker 1: She's gained to claim. I looked at her. She's going
26:19
Speaker 1: to claim for her role as Lady Maraco in the
26:23
Speaker 1: FX series Showgun. So what are your thoughts on their
26:26
Speaker 1: choosing her to play Yoko.
26:28
Speaker 2: I think she looks very beautiful and actually her hair
26:32
Speaker 2: is very similar to Yoko's, the way it waves I
26:34
Speaker 2: saw it.
26:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, what are you hoping the filmmakers get right about
26:38
Speaker 1: her portrayal?
26:40
Speaker 2: Mainly the voice because there's no accent like Yoko's. It's
26:45
Speaker 2: it's going to take that girl so much studying because
26:48
Speaker 2: it's kind of like the accent is Japanese and Liverpudlian
26:52
Speaker 2: because of hanging with John so much. It's just the
26:55
Speaker 2: weirdest accent. But it's such a cool voice. Yeah.
26:58
Speaker 1: What aspect of her life do you feel is still
27:02
Speaker 1: the most overlooked?
27:03
Speaker 2: Her wisdom?
27:05
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, well I think and that's what's gotten her
27:07
Speaker 1: through all the difficult times she does this. Yeah, she
27:10
Speaker 1: has that wisdom.
27:12
Speaker 2: She has wisdom. She was also very spiritual. She always
27:15
Speaker 2: also consulted psychics and astrologers, and in a way she
27:20
Speaker 2: seemed to bog her life down with all of that.
27:23
Speaker 2: She really ran her life according to astrological charts and
27:28
Speaker 2: all that. And we'll never know if things would have
27:33
Speaker 2: been worse if she didn't do that, Like, you don't know,
27:35
Speaker 2: but she seemed to believe in all that, or need
27:39
Speaker 2: to believe in something other than religion or God. You know,
27:44
Speaker 2: she just needed a power to believe in.
27:47
Speaker 1: What do you think ultimately she would want her artistic
27:49
Speaker 1: legacy to be.
27:51
Speaker 2: You know, she's always very flippant and just says, look,
27:53
Speaker 2: I had a good life, don't worry about me, you know,
27:58
Speaker 2: so I don't know. I mean, I think she really
28:01
Speaker 2: would want people to understand her work, and I think
28:07
Speaker 2: she really left it open ended. She left it unfinished.
28:10
Speaker 2: She wants you to finish it and take away from
28:13
Speaker 2: what it means to you. But I think what it
28:16
Speaker 2: meant to her is so profound that I would like
28:21
Speaker 2: to perpetuate her actual meetings as well.
28:25
Speaker 1: I was good ask her what you think defines her
28:27
Speaker 1: most as an artist? Music? Her art.
28:31
Speaker 2: Oh, it's all part of the same thing. You know.
28:33
Speaker 2: She didn't think of it as separate entities. It's all
28:38
Speaker 2: the same. You know. She wanted it all to be seamless.
28:43
Speaker 1: Really, So let's get to this again. Where can people
28:46
Speaker 1: go to get the updates on the new book and
28:50
Speaker 1: your work. There's a website people can go to.
28:52
Speaker 2: Yes, it's in your mindbook dot com.
28:55
Speaker 1: Okay, and that's where they can get the hardcover version
28:57
Speaker 1: of the ebook.
28:59
Speaker 2: That's that conception old books dot com. But you'll be
29:01
Speaker 2: led there. You'll be led there if you go to
29:04
Speaker 2: the website.
29:05
Speaker 1: Now, the e book is available on the usual outlets
29:07
Speaker 1: I think is Amazon.
29:08
Speaker 2: On Amazon, it's on book.
29:10
Speaker 1: Baby, okay.
29:11
Speaker 2: And then we the good news is no overseas shipping charges.
29:14
Speaker 2: That was killer.
29:16
Speaker 1: All right, Well, that's great and we got something to
29:19
Speaker 1: look forward to a year from now. We hope to
29:21
Speaker 1: have you back on and talk about the book on
29:23
Speaker 1: Yoko's music. Thanks so much for coming back on Madeline.
29:29
Speaker 1: You're one of my earlier guests. So I can't believe
29:32
Speaker 1: I've been I've been doing the show for I think
29:34
Speaker 1: three years now. I don't know. Time fly. Yeah, thanks,
29:38
Speaker 1: thanks so much again, and all the best for the
29:40
Speaker 1: upcoming book.
29:41
Speaker 2: Thank you.
29:49
Speaker 1: That's it. It's in the books.