Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: A Small-Town Cheerleader Murder That Became the Highest Rated TV Movie of 1994 with Kellie Martin.

Transcript

Killer Thriller: A Small-Town Cheerleader Murder That Became the Highest Rated TV Movie of 1994 with Kellie Martin. · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: Hey everyone, Elisa Donovan here are back with a new
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: episode of Killer Thriller. Today we're going back to one
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: of the most talked about true crime TV movies of
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: the nineties, a film that still sparks conversation decades later.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: You may know it as death of a cheerleader or
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: maybe a friend to die for. Same story, same tragedy,
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: and it is very real. The film is based on
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: the nineteen eighty four murder of Kirsten Costas, a popular
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: high school student in northern California who was stabbed to
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: death by her classmate Bernadette Proddy, in a crime fueled
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: by jealousy, insecurity and a desperate need to fit in.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: And today's guest didn't play the victims. She played the
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: girl who killed her. Kelly Martin starred as Angela del Vecchio,
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: the fictionalized version of Bernadette, a role that required stepping
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: into the mind of a teenage girl unraveling under social
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: pressure and obsession. Okay, so before we get to Kelly,
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: I'm going to bring in my producer, who is an
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: extraordinary resource surrounding his case because.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: She grew up in the town.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: I was ten. I was ten. It happened in eighty four, right, Yes,
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: So I was born in seventy four, and this was
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: we live in a small town. Like a small town
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: you know, is all relative. It's not that small. But
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: it's not in the middle of right. It's not San
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: francisc It's not San Francisco. It's like a suburb of
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: San Francisco. And I've talked about this before. It weirds
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: me out talking about it. I have to be honest
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: because I get I feel bad, I feel weird. I
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: guess is the word. It was forty years years ago,
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: forty plus years ago, forty two years ago. There's something
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: about this thing that happened that when I talk about it,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: it makes me feel guilty that I'm hurting the people
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: that lived it. Does that make sense?
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Wow?
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because you feel like it is has not healed
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: and it hasn't been.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Any friends, family. So just to give you the context,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: So when I was born, I was born in seventy
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: four and until nineteen eighty I lived on Valley Drive
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: and this happened on Orchard which if you walked from
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: my house to this it's probably like a four minute walk.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I didn't realize it was that close.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, th it was like on my street, which I
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: think is quite interesting what I thought about. It wasn't
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: on my street. It was on the street you take
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Orchard to get to Valley, and it happened on Orchard.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: So and I can't remember if she babysatus or.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Not the Cheererston Yeah wow.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: I think she did it couple times, but she wasn't
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: our regular babysitters. So like our regular babysitters lived down
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: non Valley Drive at the end by the pool, and
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: then we had two other babysitters. But I think possibly
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: she babysat is like once or twice. Right, My parents
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: were definitely friends with her parents, and I have such
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: strong memories of it because I think it was so like.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: What what's the memory? Oh, I can't.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Remember my parents going to the funeral. I can remember
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: sitting in my living room. So we had moved to
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: the town over in nineteen eighty, which is like I say,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: town Over, but like the high school for this town
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: is closer to me than the town it's in. Does
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: that make sense? Like the three towns are basically like
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: one town. And I can remember my dad telling me
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: it was the saddest thing he'd ever been to in
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: his life. And like I can't remember like high school.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I'm saying?
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, but you remember this.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: I remember so many things. I remember looking for the
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: green Pinto, like I totally remember.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: And that was the car that people understand, like that
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: was the car that was associated with the murderer before
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: they knew anything.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: People know this story because of the tory spelling. Kelly Martin.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: The first movie, it had like two names, to kill
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: a cheerleader and then it was and uh to die
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: for or yeah, and then there's the re then they
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: did it again. And also I can remember listening to
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: like my Favorite Murder the podcast when they talked about
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: it and me sort of being like, woh, you know
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: what I mean? Like whoa and the Rolling Stone article
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: a lot of people remember a.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Friend to die for? That's what it was called.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know why I keep was it
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: originally called to kill a cheerleader or something?
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Death of a cheerleader, death of a child.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: So did you talk about the sororities or did you
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: read about the sororities.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, I read about the This is like, it's so
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: disturbing on so many levels, particularly because one I am
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: a female and two I have a thirteen year old
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: daughter and those years like thirteen to eighteen to seventeen
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: are so precarious in so many ways, and people can
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: be cruel to one another, and this just feels like
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: a complete explosion of that. On a level, I think
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: feels like weird, like.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Here's here's my thing on it. We were in I
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: was in one. I went to the neighboring high school.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: So we had a story called Daphne. I think their's
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: was the Bobby's Bobbling. Two Bobbies, Yeah, there were two
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: in Berkeley. Like I don't know if they still exist.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: I mean we had like it was just a different time, right,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: I always say it like it was a different time.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Like I'll give you an example when we were in
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: high school. We had in my high school and this
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: high school are like the right of old schools, right sore,
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: And we hung out with all the kids from this
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: high school. I'm obviously much younger, but like we had
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: rallies that were like kissing rallies, Like it was just
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: a different time. You could literally write a poem like
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: they what, you know, my friend Carrie is really cute,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: she should kiss David too, and then they would be
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: like David and Carrie come down to the center of
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: the gym in front of the entire school.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: And this is like kiss the bottle in public at school.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: This is lacking. Okay, this is weird.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: This is weird.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: The best I don't even know how to explain how
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: great it was. It was the best time ever. And
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: like that was not a good poem. The poems were
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: like extravagant, like it was an excellent poot. He saw
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: her from the football field and her lockers by his
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: you know something something real. It's like a but it
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: feels very like sorority like yeah, like and the sorority
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: party was really really fun. I mean I don't drink,
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: but people did yellow shots and like it was it
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: was not mean, it was fun, but I could see
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: how somebody not in it, Yes was her and the desire,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: the real need to be a part of that. Yeah,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: and feeling because those years like context, like it was
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: like I call it the two popular groups, do you
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: know what I'm saying? Like not just like these like
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: it totally makes me think of like pretty and pank.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Right, well, right, that's what I mean.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: All these things are very identifiable to anybody who has
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: been that age or has a child who is that age,
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: you know, like the groups and the sort of hierarchical
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: nature of things. But the fact that this nineties could
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: lead to to actual murder is so but unfathomable.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Maybe it was just I don't know, Like I don't
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: want to. It's like I don't want to blame the
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: whole group for one person.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: Sure, I mean clearly she had some you know, she
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: was deeply troubled, because I don't think you do this
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: if you aren't.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: But I don't think I ever watched So in ninety
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: four when the movie came out, I was in college.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I knew of the movie because I knew it was
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: about our town, right, I knew it was Tory. I
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: don't think I ever watched it, Like, I have no
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: memory of actually watching it, and so I don't know.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: And it was so loosely based, right because nobody was
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: going to participate, So I don't Yeah, they changed all
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: the names, and did they do the knife with the vegetables?
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: Yes, that was a very big part of it that
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: it was a knife that was in the car for
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: her sister's work or to cut vegetables.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: It was to cut vegetable, So that I remember at
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: the time was so befuddling. So first of all, they
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: didn't it was the case went cold for like a
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: long time. That's why we were all out there looking
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: for the Pinto, looking for the Pinto. Then I remember
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: them it coming out, catching her, she admitting to it,
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: or a family member something. It's all very vague. I
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: mean I was ten years old, but I remember this
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: knife with the vegetable cutting, and me being like, why
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: was she cutting vegetables in her car? Like, we don't
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: have a knife in our car. It was not until
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: and I think I told you this when we were
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: talking off air. It was not until recently, when I
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: was like researching this that I understood the reason they
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: had to get the knife in was so that it
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: was not premeditated. Yes, yes, yeah, And I as a kid,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: never understood the nuance there that I was like, why
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: was she cutting cucumbers?
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: Like?
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: It was so weird to sure? Did you feel like,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: oh this could happen to me?
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: I mean because the mind of a ten year old, right,
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: you can imagine all sorts of things.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: No, I don't remember being scared. I remember being so
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: why are my parents so sad? And I'm sure they
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: like shielded us from it, but not really. I mean,
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: we knew what happened. We knew what happened. And I
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: can remember, and I've told Torri this before, like the
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: I can remember my dad telling me about the song
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: they played. I know what the song is. Every time
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: I hear the song, what is the song? So again
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I get weird. I don't want to say because I
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: get so like I'm giving their private thing. So it's
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: like I only feel okay giving saying what my experience
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: was because it's so devastating. And what's weird is like
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: I also don't think I've ever talked to my parents
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: about it again very much. I've talked to my mom
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: a couple times about it.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: And she's she's still friends with her parents.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Moved away.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: They moved away. Oh yeah, everybody moved away, right, right.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: And I don't know what's interesting. I thought about this though.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: So in Brentwood, where I also live, my house is
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: very very close to Nicole Brown, Simpsons and any same
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: distance about five minute walk. Anytime I walk down Bundy,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: I'm literally like Nicole Brown Simsons, like I think about
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: it every time. Course when I drive on Orchard, I
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: don't think about it, And I don't know why. It's
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: not like I'm like, well.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Well, I think this is the thing. You know, this idea.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: Somebody very smart said this to me once about you know,
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: people want to be close to tragedy, except when they
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: are the ones who are actually experiencing the tragedy.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: It's like, why.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: Instinctually we are rubber nicking at a car accident, Why
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: we're so obsessed with Nancy Guthrie. We cannot get enough information? Yes,
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: but yet when you are deeply in messed in it,
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: you wish nothing more than to have no association with it.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: And so I would call myself somewhere like in the
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: middle there because I want I'm not deeply immeshed in it.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I remember it right, and we were too young, Like
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: I'd have to ask, like, I have a friend who's
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: kind of in the middle of the two ages. So
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: if you know, there's seven years apart from me and the.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: So like thirteen or something or yeah, and I.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Think she has a different experience than even I have.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: But a lot of people still live here, like on
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: that street. One of our friend's moms still lives in
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: that same house. And I think it was like very
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: very close to where it happened. And like I was
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: so young, so like I don't remember, you know, yellow
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: tape and investigators and I don't remember any of that.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: I just remember knowing about it, the pinto the knife
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: and the vegetables. My parents being.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: Just oh, must have been absolutely traumatized. I cannot imagine.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: And I can remember she got out, when she got out,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: and I don't even want to say there's the real names,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: but I think I can remember that. And yeah, I
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: mean it's just And then when this big, huge movie
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: happens about it, even though it was so like in
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: your research, how close is it to the real story,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: So a lot of it is very close, But then
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: they leave out, you know, they leave out a host
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: of things like and for example, I don't remember if they.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: What I will say that the movie does that sounds
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: similar but doesn't go deep enough. They you know, Tory's
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: character is quite mean.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: She's not very nice, and I don't think that's true.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: But everything that I have read about this girl is
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: that she could be very mean. I don't know if
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: that and people all of the all of the classmates
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: that were interviewed ultimately, they were like, no, no one
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: deserves to No one even remotely was suggesting that this
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: deserves she deserved this.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know that that's true.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: You don't know, you don't think so.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. I've never heard that, just saying
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: it paints a better story for the Tory Kell Shorten movie.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: But the Rolling Stone article, they go on and on
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: about a lot of different people just saying she was
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: not nice and she was looking to be you know,
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: the queen Bee and was and.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: All of that. I don't know, but I don't.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: That's not how it resonates to me, just.
• 14:31
  Speaker 5: At all.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Do they do the thing where like she and again,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: it's like so weird to me that I have I
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: don't think I've seen it, because I'm pretty good about
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: like remembering TV shows that I've seen, Because like you
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: could ask me about an episode of like Facts of Life,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: and I'd be like, I know that one. You know,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Like do they do where she gets out of the
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: car the neighbor or sort of like the random nice
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: dad drives her back home next to her house. There
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: they do all of that, So she goes to the neighbor.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: So it's pretty yep, they do all of that, all
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: of them. What it's it's the story like they just
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: definitely kept a lot of it in there.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: What's the most kind of unbelievable to me is the
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: amount the amount of time that passed that she was
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: able to.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Uh live with this.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, now there'd be I don't understand how you
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: do that? Do you know what I mean? It's like
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: if this was now, there'd be DNA everywhere.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Oh sure, yeah.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Does she leave the knife or does she take the knife?
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: Oh?
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she takes the knife they found.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: Takes it, and then she goes home and washes it
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: and cleans it a couple of days later and then
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: puts a kitchen.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I don't know.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: So I think it's pretty diable lollcle that she could
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: spend six months kind of working on her own status
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: in the social circles, sort of gaining you know, popularity
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: so to speak, while she's carrying this incredible guilt.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: And again, I don't know how much of that is
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: accurate from the TV.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: No, this is from the stuff that I read, not
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: I don't even think they do show it a little
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: bit in the movie.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: So what did you think when you watched the movie? Like,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: were you just terrified for like your kids?
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: I felt like the main thing that I really thought
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: was God, that those years of life, particularly for a girl,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: are so so hard, and if you don't have any
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: kind of infrastructure of support with your own family, even
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: if like I mean my parents, and I like I
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: hated my parents quote unquote when I was that age, right,
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: but at the same time, I knew that they were
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: like there from me, and I also felt like I
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: had it's just hard. All of my friends turned against
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: me at one point, and like I felt horrible.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I was suicidal. And you think all these things could.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: Just like are we just a hair away from doing
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: this or is it really? Did this girl have real,
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: real mental problems? And it sounds like her family was
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: very religious and sort of very strict, and I think,
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: you know, there were a lot of pieces of the
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: puzzle that kind of make it a perfect storm that
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: she felt very embarrassed by her own family's home. Like
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: all of these things are identified, like we can all
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: identify in some regard with these things, But how do
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: you get from there to killing someone.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: So interesting too? Because at the time, back then I
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: sort of remember, like you know, like I can I
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: can understand that at the time, or they're like the
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: haves mores, right, Like it's the have and the have mores. Yes, yes,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: But then when I think about like other towns, other communities,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: other places in la oh my god, right, like this
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: is just a pretty average town.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Right, It's like, but the feelings are the same.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: It's all relative, right, And that's the thing that really
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: freaked me out in watching it was.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Do they make Kelly Martin sympathetic in it.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: A little bit? And she talks she you know, uh,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: they do a little bit.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: But it's also she's so she's just so vulnerable. She's
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: such a kind of a warm spirit as a as
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: an actress and as a person that I think, inherently
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: you do you're going to feel and they make very unlikable.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: They make her kind of unlikable.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: I don't think that's not entirely, but they make her
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: like she's very popular, she's mean, she's almost bullying her.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: I think they're taking a lot there's I don't want
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: to speak out of school because again I was in
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: you know, ten years old third grade at the time,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: but like, I think they really leaned into that, and
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: I don't think that's all accurate.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, because you don't know how much people are.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: Again, a lot of what I'm saying I'm taking from
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: the Rolling Stone article, from other extensive articles that are
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: written about this with the interviewing these children, and also
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: you don't know, you know, people start to to inflame
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: and inflate stories because they might feel important. So you know,
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: to your point, maybe these things aren't as true. You know,
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And you know, girl,
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: people can feel inferior even if someone is being perfectly nice.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Of the thing we're trying to do with this show
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: is sort of see where these things are accurate and
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: where they aren't. You know, Like I'm getting on a tangent,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: but I'm watching the JFK Carolyn Bissett and I'm like, oh, yeah,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: how made up is this? Like how would they know
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: what's happening?
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: But I still like it, Like that's the thing. I
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: can two things can be true. I can enjoy it,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: while I'm also like, I don't this isn't a documentary
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: because I mean, this is just a small town thing
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: that happened. Was and then the fact that it became
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: a movie was sort of wild too, Like I remember
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: being like.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: What right, like surprised that that was even happening.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: And then how many people justifiably believe it's exactly true,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: so that you're like, cause I'm kind of like here going,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I don't think so, I think so, I don't think so.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's true. And I was here right,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: I mean right, but you get my point.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: It's like and it was just so terrible.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Anyway, Well, we're.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Going to chat with Kelly and get her insight.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I've spoken to her about it before, and it's interesting
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: because she plays the other person and she had to
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: figure out how to do that navigate, Yeah.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: How to do that? Yep, all right, here we go, Kelly,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Killer Thriller.
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here and for talking
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: about this, which I'm sure you have spoken about before.
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: Maybe it's kind of been a minute actually, Oh.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Good, Okay, okay, Well.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: This case is so hard to metabolize and it's heartbreaking
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: on a lot of levels.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: But what did you just to start? What did you
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: know about the case, and what were you unaware of?
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: I have to be honest with you, I didn't know
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: much except that it was based on a true story.
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: And what was I seventeen when I did this. I
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: think I didn't want to know much about it. I
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: kind of wanted to just play Angela's just this, you know,
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: kind of my version of of of who she is.
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: And I didn't want to be bogged down by anything true.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: So you didn't write, you didn't try to talk to
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: anybody or anyone in the community.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: You really tried to base it on what you saw
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: on the page.
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
• 22:25
  Speaker 5: And I also knowing that she you know, that Bernadette exists, yes,
• 22:32
  Speaker 5: was like really colored my.
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: Portrayal of her. I wanted her to be.
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: As sympathetic as possible. I wanted her to be like
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: the opposite of a monster I did. I wanted people
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: to really be able to kind of identify with her
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: on the levels. So that was really my impetus, and
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: I really haven't followed it much, except when I did
• 23:01
  Speaker 5: the new version, I was like, oh, I kind of
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: delved into it a little bit more, but right, definitely
• 23:06
  Speaker 5: didn't with the first one.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, so.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: This is gonna be my question later on, but I'll
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: ask it now since we're into it.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: You and Tory were both very close.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: To the ages of these girls, and so did you
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: identify because so that everybody knows this is really this
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: community was very.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you can call it.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: It was a very wealthy community, and everybody there were
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: very high expectations.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: It was very conventional.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: So these girls, it was all about fitting in, being
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: the best, being well liked, and you know, those are
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: things that anyone at that age can identify with to
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: some degree. So did you do you remember feeling like, oh,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: I identify with these feelings.
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, I definitely identified with those feelings and certainly
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: always put a ton of pressure on myself. But I,
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: like Angela, felt very much like a fish out of water.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: She really didn't fit in with that community.
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: And there's I've never you know, it's fundy like I've
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: been in so many situations where I felt that imposter syndrome,
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: and I think that Angela felt that overwhelmingly in this
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: community with.
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: Her very Catholic.
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: Modest, humble family and then these kind of like perfect, affluent.
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: Blonde, you know people that she was around.
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: I think that that feeling of desperately wanting to fit in,
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: which I definitely felt like because I was a child
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: actor too, so like I never fit in in high school.
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: I mean I pretty much went to high school on set,
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: so when I did have experience with my peers, I
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: felt like I had like two left feet. I just
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: never felt like I fit in. And I really I
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: know that Angela felt so much like that. I also
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: think the thing that I don't think I felt, but
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: I feel like I really tapped into when I was
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: trying to portray her as this feeling of shame even
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: before she committed the murder, this overwhelming feeling of like
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: not only that she's not good enough, but shame.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: Yes, so that anything I've read extensively about this case,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: and there so much of what she says, you know,
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: her confession is really heartbreaking because she can't and a
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: lot of focus is put on how you know she
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: was more she was seemingly more concerned about what was
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: going to happen to her as opposed to this horrific
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: act that she had committed, But I feel like you
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: can't separate the two because that deep feeling that she
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: had of insecurity and shame for her own not only
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: for her inability to be what perhaps she felt she
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: was supposed to be, that her family didn't have enough,
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: and that's just heartbreaking.
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: I found her to be very heartbreaking.
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: And you know when you read this, when you read
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: the script, it definitely felt a little.
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: Bit more neutral than that.
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: And then she watched the film once it was made,
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: and Tory definitely played the character very kind of mean,
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: like she was mean.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: Everything that I read about Kirsten, it just seemed like
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: she wasn't a very nice person, that she was quite
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: mean and used her popularity to climb up the ladder
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: and really demean other people.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Now clearly she did not deserve to die for that.
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: It's great, but it's yeah. I think when I did
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: this scene where actually stabbed, where I stabb her, I
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: wanted her to just be quiet, just be quiet, just
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: stop it, just stop being that way, stop being mean,
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: and just be quiet. Is kind of how I envisioned it,
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: and I don't First of all, the fact that there
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: was a knife in the car is the craziest thing
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: to me.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I kept saying, really, wait, well this is the thing.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: And then, like some things I read, it seemed like
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: that was fantastical. There's no way that it was in
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: the car. But then it seems like, well, it was
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: in the car, So did she really put it? Did
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: her sister use it to cut vegetables?
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Like what?
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: I don't know what it was actually used for in
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: the car, but I believe it was in the car,
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: and I really do I think that that's what it was.
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: This kind of like.
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: Just stop, just stop, just be quiet for a second,
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: and almost like let me talk to you, like let me,
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: let me me go now. And I also feel like
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: she was just in this Angela was just in this
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: pressure cooker. She was just like I feel like she
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: never she just wasn't seen, She wasn't heard by anyone
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: in her family, by anyone at school, and she just
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: wanted someone to hear her.
• 28:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah, So then when nobody did, then she kind of
• 28:27
  Speaker 6: lived in this delusion of oh, this this is what
• 28:31
  Speaker 6: people who are happy do.
• 28:33
  Speaker 5: This is what people who are you know, members functioning
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: members of society do and act like and are. And
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: so if she can't be part of this group. Then
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: then she's somehow failed. But I really do, like I
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: felt so much. I mean, I am an empathetic person,
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: like that is just me. I just I'm a sponge,
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: which is a or why I'm an actor is that
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: I soak up that kind of sadness and shape and
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: all of that when I'm working. And that was really
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: my overwhelming feeling for her, and I did. I did
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: have empathy for her also, especially being a mom. Now, yes,
• 29:19
  Speaker 5: kids just can't yes can't you know?
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: Yes, I have a thirteen year old right now, and
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: she's at that age where everything that she knew before
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: she's questioning like who am I?
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: How do I fit in?
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: And she's going from this kid that was really independent
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: and like on her own program to now like oh what.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Is everyone else doing? Oh?
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: I want to do these other And it's it's a
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: part of growing up, right, but it's so terrifying when
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: it can be this, you know. I read that she
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: that some of the classmates of Bernadette were saying, you know,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: all of the things that we're talking about. And then
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: the thing that really broke her was not making the
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: yearbook staff and that was just like that was it
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: and I think that really speaks to how it's the
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: building up of all of these things, and it can
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: just be one one little extra that just puts you
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: in the place where I can no longer take this.
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: Yep, exactly. And I mean I even said to my
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: nine year old this morning, and I said, Okay, go
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: to your room, brush your teeth, put your shoes on,
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: put your glasses on, and come back out. She's like,
• 30:30
  Speaker 5: that's too many things. And I was like, really, I think,
• 30:35
  Speaker 5: I said, no, it's not. It's not too many things.
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: But you don't know what's too much for someone, Yes,
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: what it's like to be in that in that mind
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: and in that emotional place. And obviously this is not
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: the way to solve your problems. But I do feel
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: like she just it got It was so much and
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: it's one of those things that now I do feel
• 30:59
  Speaker 5: like as a society generally, we are pretty pretty well
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: versed in recognizing when someone needs help when to intervene,
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: Especially the way her parents were portrayed. They were completely
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: out to lunch and therapy or any of that would
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: not have been something they would go to. You just
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: pray on it.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: There were many theories about how this girl was murdered,
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: none of which included it was going it was a classmate, right.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: At first they were like, oh, there.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: Are Satanists or a PCP driven induced rampage by someone.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: And then once they.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Started to focus on the community, they immediately focused on
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: two of the girls that had become kind of decided
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: they weren't going to be like the rest, like dyeing
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: their hair. They were punk rock, and I went, that
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: was me. I was that person. I shaved half my head,
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: I had combat boots, I wore black eyeliner, And for
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: sure the community at my school thought we were like
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: sacrificing animals in the park, you know, which we weren't.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: We were painting and making videos, you.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Know, like r right, we were doing but you were different, Yes,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: but we were different. And it was like, if anything's wrong,
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: they've probably done it.
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: No, so of course that's who you would focus on.
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: You wouldn't focus on a good little Catholic girl, right,
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: just kind of in the shadows, like, no.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Way, right, that's not your priend respect.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: Were you surprised at how so? She The murder happens
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: in June, and it's not until December that she confesses,
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: and apparently throughout that time, which they portray in the
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: movie as well, she you know, was starting to like
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: be the head of different clubs and was very engaged
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: in sort of getting the popularity that she craved. Did
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: you find that shocking?
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: Absolutely on one level.
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: However, it does make I can make it make sense
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: in that once she got Kristen to just be quiet,
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: to stop, to stop, then she could move into she
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: is and kind of be what she's capable of. And
• 33:42
  Speaker 5: I think that this one person was standing in her
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: way and was so loud in her face that she
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: just needed to be able to move past this person.
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: That's how I can make it makes sense. But of
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: course it's sho of course, yes, yeah, that you just
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: move on with life and and then she flourishes like
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: it truly is amazing and shocking.
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: And all of that. But that is how I think
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: I made it make sense.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's such a great I love that whole
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: intention of like just stop, just be quiet so I
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: can have a moment.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: And I think that's like that rage, like that's.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: Those things build and I think anybody can understand that
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: sort of feeling. Yeah, So you and Tori she was
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: definitely your counterpart in this film. And I know you
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: guys have spoken about this on her podcast, but what
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: do you remember about the two of you telling the
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: story either on set or how did you talk about
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: your characters or did you try to sort of stay
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: away from each other or what was the.
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: So we totally stayed away from each other you did?
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: I was the prissy thing you ever met when I
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: was years old and I knew that Tory like was
• 35:05
  Speaker 5: known as a party girl, and I didn't. I mean,
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: I worked with Tory for a minute on Troop Beverly
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: Hills when we were like little kids, so I think
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: that was probably the last time I saw her.
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: So I totally.
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: Took her reputation to mean that we were very different creatures,
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: like we're not going to be we're not going to
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: be friends. I was very prissy. I don't even think
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: I said oh my god. I would say, oh my gosh,
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: you know, like that's me at seventeen. So it kind
• 35:35
  Speaker 5: of ended up being a little methidy like I'm Daniel
• 35:38
  Speaker 5: d Lewis or something, so like the makeup trailer, like
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: we didn't talk, and we definitely did not talk about
• 35:45
  Speaker 5: characters or any of that, I really think. And the
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: director was very older, like he was I want to say,
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: like eighty, because.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: Were like, oh wow, he was very connected to the
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: exactly identified with him.
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: And so I really think that I took a lot
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: of like my own prettiness and kind of feeling very
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: much a fish out of water just in my own
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: life and put that in there. But then I got
• 36:17
  Speaker 5: to work with Valerie Harper, who is who was. I'm
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: so sad she's not with us anymore. An absolute gift
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: there is just She's one of my favorite people that
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: I've ever what a light and I feel like she
• 36:34
  Speaker 5: really informed so much of what I ended up doing
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: as a character because she was the mom. So I
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: feel like there was so much of her that I used.
• 36:44
  Speaker 5: I kind of like a leech I sucked and scale.
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: But it's funny.
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: When Tori and I did talk about this recently, I
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: was like, because Tory and I have never been friends.
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: We're not enemies, but we just never were close. So
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: it's just so funny how I was so judging of her.
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: And then also I had to real chip on my shoulder,
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: so you opened a can of worms. I on my
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: shoulder about how the show I was on, Life Goes On.
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: I felt like we worked so hard and it was
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: so good and.
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: We never really got the glory because we were on
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: like Sundays at seven and we were just kind of
• 37:21
  Speaker 5: a family show. But nine o two knows so hot
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: at that moment, and I was so jealous of that.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: So I brought all of that with me.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's sort of a gift, like a
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: sort of yeah.
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: I know. I mean, I'm I'm not totally method, but
• 37:41
  Speaker 5: I'm a little method, So I did. I brought all
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: that baggage with me and just used it right. So yeah,
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: like Tori and I like didn't really talk much like
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: at all.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I love it. I did not know
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: any of that.
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: I know.
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: It's so funny. It's weird.
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: Even know, if I told her that on the podcast,
• 38:02
  Speaker 5: I probably wanted to be more polite than that.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Right, I'm sure. I'm sure I probably did.
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: Looking back now as an adult, do you think that
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: you understand that character Bernadette and your character any differently?
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: You know, or would you do? Do you just think
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: you understand her any differently than things I did that.
• 38:22
  Speaker 5: I think like I said earlier, being a mom, I
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: feel like I understand her differently because I have two daughters.
• 38:29
  Speaker 5: I have a nineteen year old and a nine year old,
• 38:31
  Speaker 5: and my nineteen year old definitely went through some stuff
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: and I had to really like adjust my way of
• 38:38
  Speaker 5: thinking in order to imagine what it must must be
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: like for her. So I do feel like as a mom,
• 38:44
  Speaker 5: I definitely see Bernadette in a different way now. But
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: then I think I just that feeling of shame and confession,
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: confessing things, and you know, like she confess in the
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: in the confessional. You remember that scene yep, Percy of Work,
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: by the way, curche first scene.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that was a really mean a d
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: that isn't that is a mean schedule? Yeah, that's a
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: mean first.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: So I mean, I think.
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: Maybe if I were to play her today, I would
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: have I would have made her a little bit have
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: those moments of savvy and not just been a deer
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: in headlights the whole time. Because she really was a
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: deer in headlights the whole time. But that's where I.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Was at at that moment, right right.
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: That was just me, you know, I think about today,
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: just that that sure that a person could go through
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: all of that and bring it to the point of
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: taking a classmate's friend's life without the Internet, without social media,
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: without any of those things. And that terrifies me to
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: think about today what teenagers go through and that pressure
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: that they could just be sitting in their room and
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: innudated with with negativity and people judging them and making
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: them feel like it's really scary.
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Like, who would Bernadotte have been with social media?
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: Oh all of that, right, that is a super interesting
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: thing to think about. Maybe she would have had an outlet,
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: you know, right, Maybe it wouldn't have been as bad.
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: Maybe she would have found her people on Reddit.
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: I don't know. You know, you can't see it both ways.
• 40:54
  Speaker 5: And sure I am so I hate technology, like I
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: literally like if I could go back to like medieval England,
• 41:02
  Speaker 5: I would do it. I think technology is really terrifying
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: in so many ways. But that being said, I do
• 41:10
  Speaker 5: think that there are so many communities, and especially marginalized communities.
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: If you need to find your people, you know, you
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: sometimes can. It can be a really positive thing as
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: opposed to just a negative thing. So who knows, But
• 41:27
  Speaker 5: maybe things could have been different.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: For her.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, why do you think that this film continues to
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: be a sort of called classic?
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Why are we still talking about it?
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: Good question, because people really still talk to me about
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: this movie.
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: I think it was pretty well done.
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: And especially TV movies have evolved into being very obviously
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: not the good ones that Nicole Kidman does, but the
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: ones that are made to be kind of formulaic. Now,
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: I do feel like this was a little film and
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: could have been released in the theaters because I really
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: do think it was patient and it took its time
• 42:09
  Speaker 5: telling the story. So I do think that just the
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: quality of it holds up. I think it's just this
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: kind of crazy and plausible thing, like you just can't
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: imagine it happening, So it is one to revisit. I
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: think that maybe there's that element of like nineties fabulous,
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: like you know, it's Dona mart and Becca.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: That exactly, and everybody loves the nineties right now.
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: Especially, you know, that's part of why people like to
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: revisit it. But it definitely, I mean, it's a fascinating
• 42:42
  Speaker 5: crime story with kind of these interesting characters, and I
• 42:48
  Speaker 5: mean I think that's why people come back to it.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, it certainly impacted that community. I mean, it
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: pretty much decimated that community in a very archway where
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: people still didn't you know, our executive producer grew up there,
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: and she talks about how she remembers looking for the Pinto,
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: like looking for the car that the murderer drove, and
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: you know, like I was, it impacted everyone, and you know, rightfully,
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: so people don't really want to talk about it. It's
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: like and Bernadette she who apparently she never served a
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: full sentence.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: She was a minor, right, she was a.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: Minor as she served seven of the nine years, and
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: you know, and thinking about so she's out, and she's
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: been out for quite some time, and I wonder is
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: if social media is helping her today?
• 43:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah, she's never reached out to me, which she hasn't
• 43:48
  Speaker 5: was always no, that was always my fear. It's just
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: something I carried with me when I was when I
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: was making the film. Is I almost not that I
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: wanted to make her proud. I wanted to do her justice, sure,
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: and knowing I was playing a real person was just
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: it weighed heavily on me. But I think that community,
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, even if like some high school
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: kid gets into a car accident and passes away. It
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: can ruin a community, It can haunt a community.
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: I mean, those kids never get over it.
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: My sister passed away at nineteen from lupus, and her
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: friends whenever they see me, it's like they've seen a ghost.
• 44:31
  Speaker 5: They are haunted by. And that was an illness, you know,
• 44:35
  Speaker 5: it wasn't a horrific murder. So the fact that like
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: these two people were you know this, these two people
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: were involved in this horrific murder at your high school.
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: In your community.
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: Like, I get it. I don't think you can move
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: on from that. You carry out with you, especially when
• 44:57
  Speaker 5: you're a teenager. My gosh, right printed on your psyche
• 45:03
  Speaker 5: for the rest of your life.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: For sure, for sure. I mean I I.
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: Just this makes me we A friend of mine in
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: high school was died in a motorcycle accident, and that
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: was like, I mean, I remember all of us coming
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: together in the in the church basement and all, and
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: you can't because you can't really even metabolize what's happening
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: at that age really, and then it becomes.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Like a part of the fabric of your life.
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: And I everything that I've I've read more about that
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: community and you know, several people have said where they've said,
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: you know, now what I what I am reading is
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: still years old from now, but years after the the murder,
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: and you know, they were asking, do you think anything
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: has changed and has this had an impact that's positive
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: in terms of how things are handled.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Sort of socially and culturally, And the answer was no.
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'm sure that the people who lived there,
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: I doubt they saw it as a reflection of who
• 46:14
  Speaker 5: they were. I mean, I bet they just you know,
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: thought this sad, desperate.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: Girl, right, like singular blame exactly.
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: You'd like to think, I mean, I'm just guessing here.
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: You'd like to think that they would have thought, oh,
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: how what are we showing these kids? How can we
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: how can we do better for them? How can we
• 46:38
  Speaker 5: do better for you know, a family that doesn't feel
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: welcome here. You'd like to think that they do that,
• 46:46
  Speaker 5: But that's just not usually what happens. So yeah, I
• 46:52
  Speaker 5: don't know, but I mean, I would imagine that the
• 46:54
  Speaker 5: kids who knew these girls, like it's affected the choices
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: they've made for i mean forever, Like it really is
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: kind of it's monumental.
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: It's such a tender time that those years, those Oh
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: it breaks me heart. I mean as a mom, like
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: it breaks my heart now.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: I mean mine too, mine too.
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: You know this the the we we talk so much
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: about bullying these days, and it's such a word that
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: everybody is familiar with, and it's massively negative connotations right.
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: And overused sometimes and overused. It's not really bullying, right
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: exactly exactly.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's just like such a different time we
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: live in, but you see the same dynamics.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: Like I said, my daughter, I see it, I see
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: it happening.
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: And no, i' have ane my nine year old. This
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: is like about to enter that preteen world.
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: So it's like I'm really enjoying every moment with her
• 47:53
  Speaker 5: that I possibly can while it's still simple.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, I know. I just came back. I've been
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: traveling a lot and.
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: I came back, you know, and I struggle with that
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: thing of you have to do this, you have to
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: do that, and this is that, and like you're saying,
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: this is not too much to ask, like brush your
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: teeth and do your homework. Don't be on the thing
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: like why why do you have this tab open on
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: your school laptop? You don't need it for that, and
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: she said to me, God, you just come home and
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: you just like yell at me and ask me to
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: do all this stuff. And I almost like fell down
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: in tears and went, what is the balance?
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: You know, like what where I.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: Don't just go, hey, everything's cool, like do whatever you want?
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: No, you come in and you like get to work. Yes,
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: but what a great thing that she called you out
• 48:42
  Speaker 5: on that. Yes, I mean I think that that's.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: A good point.
• 48:45
  Speaker 5: My daughters have kept me very accountable for my behavior,
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: and I'm grateful for that, even though it's hard to
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: hear in the moments. Yeah, the fact that you're raising
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: someone who will say, what, come on, right, give me
• 48:58
  Speaker 5: a break? Yeah, But that's that's a well adjusted kid, right.
• 49:04
  Speaker 5: You know. That is as opposed to Angela would have
• 49:06
  Speaker 5: been like I'm sorry, you know, buried her head in
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: the sand and just stewed about it and felt awful
• 49:14
  Speaker 5: about what she had done. Right. So I hope we
• 49:19
  Speaker 5: can raise our daughters to be, you know, those confident
• 49:22
  Speaker 5: people who are.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: Like, geez, right, I need a breas but right, check yourself. Yeah,
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: I know, I hope so too. I hope so too.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: This has been so great You're such a pleasure.
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: And we said at the beginning that we didn't were
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: sort of shocked that we don't think we've ever actually met,
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: which seems crazy.
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: But but now we have, okay, And I'm so pleased
• 49:54
  Speaker 5: to be able to talk about this. And it's so
• 49:57
  Speaker 5: fun to think, you know, that something I did when
• 50:00
  Speaker 5: I was seventeen, like that we still are talking about
• 50:03
  Speaker 5: it now. It's kind of amazing.
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, Bravo, it's it's it's meaningful work.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much, Kelly.
• 50:14
  Speaker 5: It was my pleasure. Nice to meet you too.
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: Bye.