Latest / The Fourcast / President Xi or Trump - who's the UK's biggest threat? | Fourcast

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President Xi or Trump - who's the UK's biggest threat? | Fourcast · The Fourcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the forecast.
0:01
I'm Krishnan Guru Murthy. My guests today are going to
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address the big question of the the brewing trade war between
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the United States on one side and China on the other, with
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Britain sort of in the middle trying to work out where it
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sits. Victor GAO is a Chinese lawyer
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and academic. He's vice president of the
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Beijing based Center for China and Globalization, and he's also
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a professor at SU Chiao University.
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Baroness Helena Kennedy is a Labour peer and an eminent human
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rights lawyer. And she's also Co chair of the
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Inter Parliamentary Alliance on China known as IPAC.
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Thank you for joining us, Victor.
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We've had a lot of people talking to us over the last few
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days warning that trade war can lead to real war.
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Do you think that's true? Of course, if you look back to
0:52
the 1920s and 1930s, trade war and tariff war, etcetera,
0:59
combined together may eventually push the situation in the
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direction of war or even global war.
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So I think we all need to do the right thing, and the right thing
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for today is to protect free trade and don't allow any
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country, no matter how big it is, how powerful it is to
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trample upon the rules of free trade and hold a gun at the head
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of mankind. That's not going to work because
1:25
it may lead the whole world into a war or a global war.
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But what does that mean in real terms?
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Because you, you can't tell Donald Trump what to do.
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So you know that the world has little impact on him when it
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comes down to it. So you know, what do you mean?
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You know, you, you can't let one person hold a gun when he's got
1:48
his trade policy. That's what he's doing.
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I would say the United States right now is holding a gun at so
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many countries head and issuing ultimatum forcing them to do
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what they may or may not believe is in the best of interest of
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all. So many countries in the sense
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this is trampling on free trade and if you really destroy free
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trade then you will live in a completely different world.
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Rule of the jungle will prevail and the hegemony, dominance,
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etcetera will be the rule of the game.
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So I think for today, all of us need to make a decision and the
2:26
choice is not between China versus the United States.
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The choice is whether the United States is doing the right thing
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or the wrong thing. If the United States is doing
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the right thing, follow it's leadership.
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If the United States is doing the wrong thing, do not follow
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the leadership. It's the same for China.
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If China's doing the right thing, go with China.
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If China does the wrong thing, do not go with China.
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And right now, I think the only litmus test is whether you are
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protecting or promoting free trade, or whether you are
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disrupting or destroying free trade.
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This is a choice for everyone, for mankind as a whole.
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China's decision is to stand up to the occasion and fiercely
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defend free trade for itself as well As for the benefit of all
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the other countries. And that's why China's slapping
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125% the territory tariff against the United States and
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China has also declared at such high level of tariff, no US
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goods exported to China will have any market to
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marketability. Literally saying we are prepared
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for a complete breakup between China and the United States as
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far as trade is concerned. Now for other countries, you may
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or may not have that courage or wisdom or vision to do what
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China is doing, but at least in the in your heart, you need to
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tell yourself which country is doing the right thing and which
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country is doing the wrong thing.
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China's position is also very clear.
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If you want to launch a war, if you want to impose a war on
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China, whether it is tariff war or trade war or scientific war
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or chips war or Cold War, proxy war or Total War, China is
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always prepared to fight to the end, to defend itself and in the
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case of the trade war and the tariff war, to defend the free
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trade. Well, let, let me immediately
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say that I, I, I have a great sympathy with the, with what
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China's experiencing just now in terms of the, the extraordinary
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high level of tariffs that are being applied by the United
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States. I think that that is so much in
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defiance of, of the, of the sort of World Trade Organization's
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way of doing business and so on. And I really do not think that
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economically it makes any, any sense to the United States or to
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the world. So let me let me make that clear
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from the start. I, I, I have have my own
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problems in relation to China because I think that here is
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this incredible power and I think that it, it doesn't look
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after its own workers often. Well, I'm concerned about what
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happens in Xinjiang province and I think there are issues about
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proper compensation of workers. And I don't like the idea of any
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kind of forced labour. And I, and I, and it surprises
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me that a nation like China, which is so concerned with doing
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justice by its many rather than its few, is doing that to any
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set of workers. So I have concerns about what
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happens in factories around China and, and I've made that
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very clear. And so I'm a critic of China
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with regard to how it deals with minorities and how it deals with
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issues of rights and how it deals with the rule of law.
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But let's go back to the business of trade.
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I've always felt that we should keep doors open.
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I'm not a hawk when it comes to relationships with China.
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I think that Britain should be having discussions about trade.
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But I think that we've got to be very clear.
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And Victor, I, I suspect that you're going to agree with me,
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but there's a difference. Um, but I don't know about
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whether there's a difference anymore in the United States,
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but there's a difference in Britain with regard to the
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commercial world and the, the, the, and the state.
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And, and the state does not have access into the private matters
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concerning a company. But you know that your governing
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body, the Communist Party of China, is able to access at any
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time because of the Power Wheels.
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It's able at any time to access any kind of information that
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companies in China might hold in relation to those with whom it's
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doing trade. And so I do have concerns about
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whether I'm doing trade with certain kinds of companies that
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are in China, whether in fact it is going to be deleterious to
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the national security of Britain.
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And, and I know that because of the different cyber invasions
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that have been at the hands of China.
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And so I, I, I have concerns about that and I, I, I do.
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But I do think that the door should be open to have
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continuing discussions with you around the issue of trade.
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I do think that it's very important that we continue to
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have close relations because of climate change and the ways in
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which there can be collaborations around all of
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that. And there are many different
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issues in the world where it's so important that a huge nation
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like China should be part of the the great conversation of
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mankind. But I also have deep concerns
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about the fact that there isn't that separation of interests as
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between the private sector and the state of China as it's run
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by the Communist Party of China. Victor.
7:51
Thank you very much. I listened very carefully to
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what Helena has to say and I highly respect her as a person.
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On the other hand, for the several things she mentioned
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about, for example, foster labour, I hope Helena will
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really do better homework to realize that forced labour is
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not being practiced at all by any stretch of the imagination.
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And the complete transformation of China over the past 46 years
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is not because of false labour, is not because of the false
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allegation about IP violations, for example.
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So I hope people in Britain and elsewhere should really have a
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very objective look at China and try to understand what are the
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real driving forces between China's complete transformation.
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That's number one. Number 2 is that for people like
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Kalana and all the other distinguished people, I treat
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all of you with great respect and decency, but we may have
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difference of opinion. So if you have criticism about
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China, be very straightforward, but criticism should be for the
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purpose of trying your best to help China, to improve our
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situation rather than condemning China, for example, or whole
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China as the culprit, to humiliate it, because that's not
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constructive. So in that sense, I think when
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we talk about the trade war or the tariff war, we need to
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really make a final decision, whether in your heart or in the
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public, that is whether you want to protect free trade.
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I think it's seeing all of us as interest to protect free trade.
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China is the largest trading partner with about 140 nations
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in the world. So we have a vested interest in
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promoting free trade, and we have a vested interest in
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telling the United States, telling President Trump and his
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administration, don't mess with China, don't mess with free
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trade, don't mess with mankind. Don't try to be a hegemon who
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holds a gun at the head of the other countries and force it
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into kowtowing to the United States if it is dominant.
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Well, you know, when you hear the the concerns of somebody
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like Helena Kennedy. So do you see that in order to
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build more global alliance in this trade war, in this rivalry
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with America, China may have to address some of those concerns?
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Allow me to emphasize for the record, that is for all these
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decades, especially ever since 1978, and I have full knowledge
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of what China's doing for all these years.
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Everyday China is improving itself.
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Everyday China is learning from its experiences, trying to
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understand why it failed, how we can move forward better.
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And whereas the United States is worried that they don't have
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enough enemies in the world, we are always worried that we do
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not have enough friends in the world.
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So what we call criticism and self criticism is treated as a
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virtue in China. We always criticize ourselves
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and we welcome positive constructive criticism for
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anyone in the world. What we don't like is false
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accusation, is accusation without doing the homework is
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confounding black and white, for example, and try to accuse China
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as the culprit, whereas the realities on the ground are
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completely different. So I think if Hananah is really
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very constructively minded and the goal is to help China to
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improve, I don't know. You will be my heroine and I
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think we will treat you with highest respect and decency.
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And I hope you will tell everyone you know that China
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welcomes positive constructive criticism, but absolutely will
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fight against any false accusation and ungrounded
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condemnation. Victor, I, you know that I'm a
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lawyer, but I'm a lawyer who's very much engaged with human
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rights issues. And, and I, I'm afraid I don't
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have very much truck with the idea that there are no human
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rights abuses being conducted against the Uyghur people in
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Xinjiang province. Because I've seen too much of
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the evidence and I've heard too often from people who, who have
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been at the receiving end of, of persecution and have had to flee
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that persecution. And so I, and it's very
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interesting, Michelle Bachelet, who I think is a very highly
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respected politician. She was the president of Chile.
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She's ended up being the head of the Human Rights Commission at
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the United Nations. And just before she stepped down
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from that role, in fact, the day before, umm, I think she was
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rather anxious not to do it before that because having China
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involved in international, umm, uh, institutions is so
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important. But she published her report.
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She had gone to we to, uh, to see the Uyghur to visit Xinjiang
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province. She went to China with a
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delegation of, of, uh, independent minded people and
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they wrote a report saying that there were serious human rights
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abuse. They didn't accept the concept
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of genocide, but they said that there were serious crimes
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against humanity taking place against the, the Uyghur people.
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Now, this is not some biased outfit.
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This is not somebody who's working within the Trump
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administration who for whatever reasons have their own problems
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with China. This was, this was an
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independent group of people who went there.
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And so I don't have any doubt about the fact that there are
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serious human rights uses there. Now, if China wanted to have
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conversations about how, you know, are they dealing with
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terrorism? Do you, do you have collective
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punishments? Do you punish all of the people
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there in the ways that I think they are being punished?
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I'm happy to have those conversations with leading
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figures in China. But those things do alarm the
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West. Certainly the European WI don't
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know whether they're causing great concern to either Russia
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or to the United States at the moment.
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But but people in, in, in, in those countries also care about
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these issues. And so it seems to me that
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there's so many things that China could do.
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It could very easily say we were trying to deal with, we felt
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with terrorism and it may be that we came down too heavily
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and we're going to seek to address all of that and we would
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like assistance in doing so. If China, for example, in
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relation to the Russia Ukraine war and which was was started
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undoubtedly by by Russia. If China took a position
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alongside Europe in supporting an end to that war that did
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justice for the Ukrainian people, then I think that that
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you would be creating a very different kind of perception of
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the journey that China is on in trying to address some of these
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issues. But there's no sign that that
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President Xi is interested in doing any of that.
15:15
Allow me to respond. I listened to you very
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carefully. Helena.
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You know, China is a nation with 56 different nationalities.
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Wiggle is one of the 56 different nationalities.
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So to start with, you need to ask a question why first of all,
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all the other 55 nationalities are very happy and very quiet,
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very law abiding and prospering together with the transformation
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in China. And why the Wiggle nationality
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has some problem now? Then you also need to ask what
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is the real problem involving some of the people in the Wiggle
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nationality. The reason is very simple.
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Xinjiang borders with Afghanistan.
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Just imagine if London borders with Afghanistan, then you will
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know immediately your risk profile will be completely
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different. And the 20 year war in
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Afghanistan launched by the United States and participated
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by NATO is a real thing. Afghanistan is still suffering
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from the aftermath of the 20 year old war.
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And in in Xinjiang, do you know among the wiggles there are
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people who call for jihad? Jihad against whom?
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Against China? No.
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Against the Chinese Communist Party?
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No. Against the Chinese people?
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No. Against the people like the hard
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nationality like me? No.
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They are calling for jihad against American troops
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occupying Afghanistan. They are calling for jihad
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against the NATO soldiers fighting in Afghanistan,
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including British soldiers. They were on the battleground.
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They killed the NATO soldiers, American soldiers.
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Some of them were arrested, some of them were put into prison in
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Guantanamo Bay. All this is real.
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Don't pretend that you do not know.
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And as a result. I do know.
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I do know. Over.
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Allow me, allow me to finish. I listen to you very carefully
17:18
just now without any interruption.
17:20
Therefore, the spillover of terrorism, radicalization and
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extremism from Afghanistan, from those people who want to launch
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jihad against America, against NATO, against British soldiers,
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for example, into Xinjiang is real.
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It's not pretended, it's not fabricated.
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If you say no, China is immune from all these radicalization
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from Afghanistan into Xinjiang, then you do not know what you
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are talking about. So that's number one.
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Now, the second thing is very interesting.
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While terrorism, extremism, radicalization are what we
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consider evil forces, do you know what their real ultimate
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goal is? Their ultimate goal is to split
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Xinjiang into a separate, independent country.
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They want to take away Xinjiang from China, and do you think the
18:11
1.4 billion people in China will ever tolerate such a prospect?
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Someone using whatever means they have at disposal, sometimes
18:20
being fanned by some Western countries behind them, try to
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take away Xinjiang, 1/6 of the landmass of China.
18:27
Now, when you talk about human rights problems, tell me whether
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you see any country in the world which has a perfect record of
18:36
human rights. Every country has some problems,
18:39
different in nature, different in degree, in state, etcetera.
18:43
When you say in China you have human rights problems, I agree
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with you. I want to work with you to see
18:49
whether these human rights problems can be addressed.
18:52
But when you say wow, there are atrocities, there are crimes
18:56
against humanity, there are other things.
18:59
For example, you have mass detention of legal people.
19:02
No, Heather, you do not know what you are talking about.
19:06
I actually met with the head of the World We Go Congress and I
19:13
met with the former chairman of the United States Congressional
19:18
International Religion Committee, for example.
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Both of them were we goes, we chatted, we can talk, we can
19:27
exchange views. They know my view is completely
19:30
different from them. They know they are getting the
19:33
support. And both of them actually very
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interesting. They are U.S. citizens, they
19:37
carry US passport. But their goal is to really
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create a situation where ultimately, according to their
19:46
version of the truth, that the Wiggles will have their own
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homeland, Wiggles will have their own Republic, or Riggles
19:53
will have their Caliphate. Now from Chinese perspective,
19:57
this mission will never be possible.
20:00
We will never allow that to be accomplished.
20:02
So when you say, I support about.
20:04
The points about Ukraine. Ukraine is very simple.
20:07
From day one, China has been calling for ceasefire, immediate
20:11
ceasefire. China called Russia to ceasefire
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to China called on Ukraine to do the ceasefire.
20:18
Now people accuse China of siding with Russia and providing
20:22
support to Russia. Allow me to mention one thing.
20:25
If China provided weapons to Russia, the war would have been
20:30
over already. Because if you know that China
20:35
is the biggest producer of all these weapons of all kinds, et
20:40
cetera, if China provides all these things to Russia, it will
20:43
be 1 sided in addition to all the advantages and the
20:47
superiorities that Russia are. You denying that any any
20:50
Russian, any Chinese weapons have gone to Russia?
20:53
No, there has been no Chinese weapon at all by any stretch of
20:59
the imagination provided by China to Russia, because
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otherwise Russia would have won the war already.
21:05
So we need to be very careful. China has been calling for
21:08
ceasefire from day one. Second point, China has never
21:12
provided any weapon to Russia. Thirdly, China has been treating
21:16
Russia and Ukraine on the same footing, meaning we want to
21:21
create a situation where both of them will need to sit down at
21:24
the negotiation table. I will not be surprised.
21:27
Eventually, Beijing may be chosen as the venue for the most
21:31
important Russian Ukraine. Dialogue may be participated by
21:36
Russia by the United States at the same time.
21:38
Let me just ask Helen. I mean, you're part of the, oh,
21:40
you're the Co chair of the Inter Parliamentary Alliance on China,
21:43
which, you know, the members of that group often talk about the,
21:46
the threats that China represents.
21:49
Can you explain what you actually think the, the fear is
21:54
that what China's ambitions globally might be and what the
21:58
threat to Britain is? Because that's what's leading to
22:00
these conversations about Chinese involvement in British
22:03
steel or nuclear plants and the question of whether they should
22:06
be stopped. I am not someone who thinks that
22:10
umm, umm, China is the devil Incarnate.
22:13
I don't, I don't believe that, Umm, I, I know many Chinese
22:17
people, umm, and I've been to China a number of times and I,
22:21
and I, and I know as, as Victor would say, many, many people,
22:25
umm, are people of goodwill and, uh, and so on.
22:29
When, when Victor talked, my criticisms are different from
22:32
those of, for example, some of the others who are on part of
22:36
the alliance. My, my concerns are, are first
22:39
of all, about human rights. And I don't accept Victor's
22:42
picture, which is that why, why, why, why they're Uyghur.
22:46
And, and I think, I mean, it's a bit like people would say, why
22:48
the Irish as if somehow, you know, there are some people who
22:52
are more inclined towards terrorism.
22:54
It's, it's just not true. The problem in, in Xinjiang
22:58
province is that, yes, I'm sure that there are jihadists and I'm
23:01
sure that there are people, um, who, uh, um, want to live in a
23:05
caliphate and, and are extremists and have been
23:08
affected by the sort of Talibanization of, of, um,
23:12
creating a sort of political Islam.
23:14
But but those people are few and I think the majority of people
23:19
are absolutely wanting to live a peaceful life in in Xinjiang
23:23
province. They're not unhappy about being
23:26
part of China if China respects them and respects their rights.
23:30
And that's been my experience in my meeting with many of the
23:33
Uyghur people. And so I I don't accept this.
23:35
The business is that terrorism and the, and when the United
23:39
States created this notion of a war on terrorism after 9-11,
23:44
unfortunately, it gave excuses to other countries to go after
23:48
the small numbers of people who might have those sort of
23:50
jihadist views to actually exact a much greater, if you like
23:54
punishment on the whole community in order to, to to, to
23:58
prevent the rise of it. I think that there are people
24:02
who want inside China, who want to be respected and to live as
24:06
Muslims to, to follow their religion and not to, uh, feel
24:10
that they have to become like the Han.
24:11
It's that sort of homogenization which seems to be part of
24:15
president She's, um, plan for, for China.
24:19
Now, when, when Victor says, and he's a very smart man, so he
24:23
knows that I will say this to him when he says that the
24:26
people, all the other provinces and all the other, many, many
24:30
peoples of minorities who are not Han Chinese, they all accept
24:35
all of this and that they're, they're, they're happy.
24:38
They're not many of them just get on with life quietly,
24:41
knowing that because of the authoritarian nature of the
24:44
regime, they couldn't possibly speak out and they couldn't
24:47
possibly insist on practice using their own religion or
24:50
their own culture and so forth. And so it's about the fear and,
24:55
uh, and that is what I'm afraid creates that, uh, culture of
25:00
basically, uh, that chilling effect, which means that people
25:03
just live their daily life and get on with it.
25:06
Umm, and, and so I don't agree with it with him about the, the
25:10
everybody else is happy. Umm, I do think that China has
25:13
made the most incredible, incredible strides.
25:17
Umm, it was an, A poor, poorly, many people struggling and the
25:21
whole business of, of that advance over the, the, the, the
25:25
decades, um, since the, the, since 1950 really has been
25:30
incredible. However, to, to, to, to achieve
25:34
that, there has been a great deal of repression, A cultural
25:38
revolution which was absolutely hellish for many, many families
25:42
and people. And so the, yes, now China has
25:46
embraced the market. China is now wanting to play in
25:49
the global market and to to embrace large parts of
25:53
capitalism. However, however, those things
25:56
that that I think make democracies work should be also
26:01
making whatever China is running works, which is more rights for
26:06
people, more participation, listening to their voices and I
26:09
believe elections. But Victor would say that's not
26:12
possible in China. But I do they feel very strongly
26:15
that people who live on borders everywhere have this problem,
26:20
which is that lines are drawn, which state creates created
26:23
nation states. And so there are there are often
26:25
problems of this kind on borders where people feel I'm culturally
26:30
more like the folk on the other side of that border.
26:33
And we're dealing with it in relation to Russian speaking
26:35
people in Ukraine and so forth. But you there are ways of
26:39
dealing with that. And one of the ways of dealing
26:41
with it is not by repression, but by actually listening and
26:45
allowing people to be as much of you know, what it is they want
26:48
to be without doing it the way that I think is happening
26:52
currently in China. But when to go back could?
26:54
You also just explain, you know, Helena, I mean, you know, this
26:57
question of sort of what the perceived threat from China is.
27:00
As China becomes economically and militarily very strong,
27:03
there is this sense of sort of, well, you know, they are not the
27:07
entirely innocent, just simply trading nation and that they do
27:12
pose a threat. So what is that perceived
27:14
threat? Well, first of all, we all, we
27:17
know that because of the huge numbers of people that there are
27:20
inside the, the continent or the nation of China, they can very
27:25
easily, they have a, a workforce that will work very cheaply and
27:29
that they can therefore undercut what's happening in other parts
27:31
of the world. So, so that there's that that
27:34
whole competition. It's not an equality of arms.
27:37
They can produce things much more cheaply.
27:40
And therefore it has is created for the United States and
27:44
certainly for Western countries and for Britain and ways in
27:47
which products can be produced in a way that could never be
27:50
produced for the cost that if they were made here.
27:53
So that that, that, that let's face that reality.
27:55
The other thing is that the Chinese people are incredibly
27:57
clever, very smart. They're very good at sort of
28:00
seeing what other people are doing, adapting it and adopting
28:02
it. And some would say stealing the
28:04
intellectual property of of others who have invented things.
28:09
And so, but that has gone on, not just with China, but China's
28:14
very good at it. The other thing is that China in
28:17
its, in its, if you like, its Belt and Road.
28:20
Some policies have gone into Africa full of poor places,
28:27
places that need infrastructure and so on.
28:29
And it has been mopping up the, the friendship of nations that
28:35
helps them both at the United Nations to, to, to flatten
28:38
criticism, but it also helps them in relation to securing
28:42
some of the rare earth minerals that are very important in the
28:45
creation of technology. And so let's be very clear.
28:48
This is a strategy that China has adopted.
28:51
And we have to be very wary of what it would mean for us,
28:54
because if China is buying up companies here in Britain, we
28:57
have to do we have to, I mean, the business recently of the
29:01
downturn of, of steel has concerned me because it, for us,
29:07
that's very important because it's taking jobs away from, from
29:09
huge numbers of people. And if we don't have a capacity
29:11
for making steel, it puts us at the mercies of buying steel from
29:15
El elsewhere. So we too have to be strategic.
29:18
And so in being strategic, I think that we should be, and I
29:21
advocated this publicly. I think that we should be doing
29:24
a review of all of the companies that we do business with or that
29:27
we might be like thinking of doing business with to look at
29:30
and examine the potential that for interfering with our own
29:34
national security or our own national prosperity, actually.
29:38
So the, the, I, I think that, that we need to know that.
29:41
Now what we, what is different is that in Britain, certainly,
29:46
and when it comes to things like, um, cybersecurity
29:50
companies operate separately, there is no, the, the state is
29:54
not interfering. And I am confident of that in
29:57
that, but I'm not confident of it in relation to China.
30:00
I think that China, for example, if it, if it wanted to, could
30:04
walk into any company and say, we want to see you're, you're
30:08
doing stuff for health commodities in Britain, We'd
30:11
like to see the, the, the data. Data has become one of the most
30:16
valuable commodities in the world.
30:17
More, much, much more valuable than gold or oil.
30:20
Data is the future and I'm afraid that China has long term
30:24
prospects in relation to acquiring our data because of
30:28
how valuable it would be to them.
30:29
OK, Victor, you know, address some of that, but can you also
30:32
just address the basic suspicion in Britain at the moment around
30:36
British steel, which is that it was clearly not in China's
30:40
interest to make British steel flourish and that you were in a
30:45
position as a country to effectively sabotage a British
30:48
industry? I understand that the Chinese
30:51
company running this bridge steel faces a dilemma because
30:55
the British Steel is losing money, tons of money on a daily
30:59
basis, so commercially you cannot support it.
31:03
So the company either need to be nationalized by the British
31:05
government or some other willing buyer need to take it over from
31:09
the Chinese company. Now there are many reasons why
31:12
the company British Steel is losing money, but if you run the
31:16
company, you will know that if you are faced with a situation
31:20
where you keep pumping money in but still cannot revive it, then
31:26
you need to reach a point of cut and run away from it.
31:29
Is that right? So I don't think the situation
31:31
involving British Steel has any geopolitical motivation behind
31:36
it. It's purely an investment which
31:38
doesn't work and becomes a liability, total liability.
31:43
So I hope Britain actually will make sure that the furnaces will
31:47
never be closed. You still have some iron or
31:50
steel making capabilities, just just in case or any existences
31:55
for example. But to imagine that China as a
31:58
country has a secret agenda of moving into British steel and
32:03
shutter furnace and create a situation where Britain will
32:07
have no steel making capacity, That's too much of A Hollywood
32:11
movie. That's too much of exhaust on
32:13
your imagination. I would say.
32:15
So my personal view is let British steel be saved and let
32:19
Britain still keep whatever amount of steel making
32:23
capacities. But the financial failure of
32:26
this British steel has nothing to do with the Chinese
32:29
government, has nothing to do with whether China wishes
32:33
Britain good or bad. Now allow me to use the other
32:37
one, he Clay nuclear power station.
32:39
China was very much involved and China was very happy to work
32:43
with the French company to get this nuclear power station down.
32:46
Britain suffered all the hysteria, eventually created a
32:50
situation where the Chinese company was forced out.
32:53
But eventually you end up with a situation where the French
32:56
company can no longer support it because it's too much of A
32:59
burden, financial burden. So Britain is hit with the
33:04
failure of King Claire and I think it will suffer a shortage
33:09
of power in the coming years. At a time when the Americans
33:13
keep telling you power, power, power is the key in the AIH, you
33:18
need to have at least a double the current power capacity to
33:22
support a meaningful AI industry.
33:25
So eventually Britain suffers all the consequences.
33:29
You no longer have enough power to support your current use and
33:32
you will have a big short shortage of power if you really
33:38
want to commit yourself to an AI revolution.
33:41
Now very briefly, I do not have enough time to address all the
33:44
points. However, I mentioned oppression.
33:47
Let me tell you, if you talk about China with billions, 1.4
33:52
billion people in oppression without being able to express
33:56
their views, why is it the case that China produces more data
34:01
than anyone else? Chinese language data is
34:06
probably 1 of the largest pool of data in the world of today.
34:09
How do you explain that China's mobile phone and laptop and
34:15
computer penetration are among the highest in the world of
34:19
people to chat freely without any concerns about each other.
34:23
But if you say whether in China there is a red button issue that
34:27
you cannot talk about, which are considered political taboo, Of
34:30
course, every country has a red button issue.
34:33
In China, what is on the red button issue list?
34:37
Tibetan independence, Xinjiang independence, Hong Kong
34:40
independence, Taiwan independence.
34:43
You cannot challenge the one party state.
34:46
More or less. China is a democracy in its own
34:47
way. We in addition to the Communist
34:49
Party of China, we have eight other democratic parties which
34:53
started their existence before 1949.
34:58
And then if you talk about people, Canada, come to Beijing,
35:03
come to any part of China, you see free movement of people back
35:07
and forth now people from the West to the east, from the South
35:10
to the north and vice versa on the high speed railway.
35:14
And I never see any such convenience of public
35:18
transformation, movement of goods, services and ideas across
35:23
multiple applications. That's why TikTok in the United
35:26
States is so popular. That's why so many applications
35:30
are very popular in the United United States, in Western
35:32
countries, in the global S Why? Because they started in China.
35:36
They have proven their middle in China.
35:39
Therefore they went to the rest of the world.
35:42
If you think China is a country of oppression, do you think you
35:47
can really come up with the app like a TikTok?
35:50
Do you think Russia can produce 1?
35:52
Do you think people's the the DPRK can produce?
35:56
Right now you are thinking about things completely out of touch.
36:01
So if you want to criticize China for the purpose of helping
36:05
China improve, you'll be welcome.
36:07
If you want to use all these stereotypes and labels which
36:11
completely are not applicable to China, then my advice is Helena,
36:17
maybe next time when I'm in London, we can have a cup of tea
36:20
to help you to really being reoriented to the realities in
36:26
China. China is the megatrend in the
36:28
world. Victor, can I just tell you I'm,
36:31
I'm just going, I'm just going to tell you that I, I, I, I take
36:35
my hat off to the, the sheer ingenuity of the Chinese people
36:39
that you know, the, the, the, the cleverness and the
36:41
inventiveness is, is, is, is to be greatly admired.
36:46
But I do want you to know that I can't come and visit you in
36:49
Beijing as you're inviting me to do and you're saying I'd be very
36:52
welcome. You might put the welcome that
36:55
out for me, but I'm afraid I've been sanctioned by the Chinese.
36:58
The Chinese. Guys, then you need to ask why?
37:01
Why should China sanction you? And let me Kevin.
37:04
I tell why I know. I know perfectly well why they
37:07
sanctioned me. They sanctioned me because as a
37:09
parliamentarian along with Lord Alton in the House of Lords, he
37:14
and I were both highly critical of what was happening to the
37:19
Uyghur people in Xinjiang province.
37:22
And I was also very critical of what was happening to the rule
37:25
of law in, uh, Hong Kong. And, uh, but five members of the
37:30
House of Commons were also sanctioned.
37:33
And it was about freedom of speech, you see, and I think
37:35
freedom of speech isn't operative in China.
37:38
And, uh, and so when, uh, people in Britain, even
37:41
parliamentarians who are protected with what they say in
37:45
Parliament, when we were talking about what was going on there,
37:50
that was, that was, that made us alien to the, the regime in
37:56
China. And I'm afraid I've been
37:57
sanctioned. So I can't visit my, my friends
38:00
in China. I can't visit and see the
38:03
wonderful art. I can't go out and see the
38:06
beauties of China because I'm banned from China.
38:09
And so I just want you to know that it's a source of serious
38:12
sadness to me, but I'm not going to be able to take up your very
38:16
kind. Helena, allow me to make a
38:20
point. You mentioned the freedom of
38:21
speech. I am, as a Chinese national,
38:25
sitting in my home in Beijing, talking with you.
38:29
Now, do you think I can do this in a great Cultural Revolution
38:32
between 1966 to 1976? No.
38:35
I might be imprisoned at that time.
38:38
Is that right? But now.
38:39
But are you shocked that Helena is banned?
38:41
I hope eventually sanctions against you will be removed and
38:45
you will be welcome to China. But there is a precondition I
38:49
would say, that is really deal with China as it is without
38:53
blowing things out of proportion, and deal with China
38:56
as it is, deal with the Chinese people as it is, deal with the
39:00
person like Victor GAO as I am. We, we must wrap it up, I'm
39:04
afraid. But thank you very much indeed,
39:06
both of you. Thank you, Baroness.
39:08
Thank you for. The Victor GAO, thank you both
39:10
very much indeed. Thank you very much.
39:11
Thank you. That's the forecast.
39:13
Bye bye.