Latest / The Animal Advocate / From Protest to Policy: Ending Horse-Drawn Carriages in Philadelphia

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From Protest to Policy: Ending Horse-Drawn Carriages in Philadelphia · The Animal Advocate

0:00
What does it take to get a city to ban a practice that's been around
0:04
for decades? Today's guest has spent 9
0:07
years trying to figure that out. She's not a lawyer, she's
0:11
not a lobbyist. She's an animal lover from Philadelphia
0:15
who saw horses pulling carriages through city streets and
0:18
decided she was gonna do something about it. And what she did
0:22
is a masterclass in smart, persistent,
0:25
creative advocacy.
0:30
Welcome to The Animal Advocate, where we arm animal
0:33
lovers with the information and inspiration you need to become
0:37
effective advocates. I'm your host, Penny Ellison,
0:41
and I've taught animal law and advocacy at the University of Pennsylvania
0:44
since 2006. If you've ever thought,
0:48
"Someone should do something about that," I'm here to guide you
0:52
on your journey to being that someone. You can
0:56
find us on the web at animaladvocacyacademy.com.
1:00
And that's where you'll find show notes and resources, and you can
1:04
send us your comments on episodes and ideas for topics you'd like to
1:08
hear on future shows. So, onto today's
1:11
topic.
1:18
So horse-drawn carriages. If you've ever been to a city
1:22
that has them, you've probably seen the horses standing in
1:25
traffic, heads down, pulling tourists in the heat
1:29
or the cold. Maybe you felt bad for them. Maybe
1:32
you thought somebody should do something about that. Well,
1:36
today's guest is that somebody. Janet White is
1:40
the founder of Carriage Horse Freedom. An organization dedicated
1:43
to ending horse-drawn carriage rides in Philadelphia. And her story
1:47
has lessons for every advocate, regardless of your issue.
1:52
Here's what I want you to listen. For in this conversation. First,
1:56
Janet didn't come to this with any special credentials or connections.
2:00
She started where a lot of us start, seeing a practice she
2:03
believed was wrong and wondering what she could do about it.
2:08
Second, she's been at this for 9 years, and she hasn't given
2:12
up. Persistence is a necessary part of this job.
2:16
Laws don't change overnight, and neither does public opinion.
2:21
Third, and this is the part I think is really brilliant, when
2:24
legislators pushed back on what would replace the carriage experience for
2:28
tourists, Janet didn't just argue that that wasn't necessary.
2:32
She came up with an alternative that completely changed the conversation.
2:36
You're going to want to hear how she did that. And fourth,
2:40
Janet doesn't argue from emotion. Everything she advocates
2:44
for is backed by science, and she'll tell you why that
2:47
matters and how it shaped her strategy. Whether
2:51
your issue is carriage horses or shelter overcrowding or anything
2:55
else, I think you're going to find a lot to take away from this conversation.
2:59
One quick heads up, you're going to hear some train noise in the background of
3:03
this interview. Janet is in Philadelphia, and if you know
3:06
Philly, you know the Frankford El. Waits for no one. So consider
3:10
it local flavor. Let's get into it.
3:14
Welcome, Janet. It's really great to have you. Thank you, Penny. It's great
3:17
to be here. So I want to talk to you because I think you have
3:21
kind of. A unique story as an advocate.
3:25
You know, you're not a lawyer, but you're a powerful and effective advocate.
3:29
And you've picked an issue that's a little bit different, something that I
3:33
haven't talked about on the podcast yet, and that's, you know, horse-drawn carriages.
3:37
So, um, I want to talk to you a little bit about your journey
3:41
as an advocate and how you got started, because I think a lot of us
3:45
look at horses pulling carriages and
3:48
kind of feel bad for them. I used to have a horse when I was
3:51
young, and I, you know, you can see that their posture is often
3:56
telling the story of, you know, even though they might be getting enough food or
3:59
the basics, they look very sort of depressed and
4:03
unhappy. So can you tell me how you sort of
4:06
chose this issue to get so deeply involved in? Yeah,
4:10
well, I grew up in Philadelphia, and ever
4:14
since I was a child, I'd see the horse-drawn carriages in Center City,
4:18
and it always bothered me because They looked
4:22
to me to be overworked and
4:25
dejected and sad, and I just felt
4:29
bad for them. And I didn't really know what to do about it.
4:34
But when I got a little older, I, about 10 years ago
4:37
actually, I found a group of activists who were out
4:41
there protesting against the horse-drawn carriages. And I
4:45
decided I wanted to learn more about the issue. And then I
4:48
joined in with them in some street protests. And I felt at
4:52
least like I was doing something to protest what
4:56
I thought was a very cruel practice. Did you think
5:00
those protests were effective? Did you talk to people who were thinking about taking a
5:04
carriage ride and decided not to? Yeah, these
5:07
protests had been going on for many years. And in
5:11
fact, I mean, the horse carriages were introduced in
5:14
1976 for the bicentennial. As a
5:18
type of tourism. So they were controversial from the very
5:21
start. And I learned that there were many groups over the years
5:25
that were— individuals and groups that were protesting that practice and who
5:29
were actually very effective. So I
5:33
believe the street protests are essential. I think they're a part of the
5:37
advocacy effort, but I think they're a critical part of it.
5:41
Well, the public education part, I guess, because there are a lot of people that
5:45
you know, haven't been exposed and they're here as a tourist and they think that
5:47
the horses are, you know, enjoying it. And I know
5:51
when I see people sometimes, not lately, we'll talk about that,
5:55
but I used to see, you know, 5 people in a carriage or something and
5:58
it looked like an awful lot to be pulling. Yeah, they're actually allowed by
6:02
city law to pull up to 6 people. But no,
6:05
absolutely. The protests really were largely about
6:09
raising public awareness distributing literature, talking with
6:13
people, you know, trying to keep it positive as far as, you know,
6:16
not just out there, you know, fist in the air, but really
6:20
effective in terms of communicating with people and trying to educate them about
6:24
why this practice is wrong. And so
6:28
you made some progress with street protests, but you had to do more than
6:32
that. So what was your next step? In
6:35
2017, I decided to start my own group.
6:39
Because I thought that from what I was
6:43
learning, and I'm still learning, I believe
6:46
that there— it was a big issue. It was— there's many parts to
6:50
the issue. And so it seemed to me that it
6:54
wasn't just about protesting against carriage companies. It was,
6:58
you know, looking at what's involved as far as all the stakeholders
7:01
involved. And it's complex because it involves businesses, not
7:05
just the carriage companies, but the tourism industry in Philadelphia,
7:10
you know, tourism marketing, of course, all the city officials that are
7:13
involved. It's complicated. And so I decided I
7:17
wanted to look at the issue holistically and try to
7:21
address the different parts of it. And I knew there was a lot I had
7:24
to learn. So that's why I turned to different people who are very knowledgeable to
7:28
try to get more information and, you know, advance in
7:31
terms of talking with people who, who really are the decision makers
7:35
in all this. And the name of your organization is
7:39
Carriage Horse Freedom. Okay, so, so
7:43
you started your own organization, and what was interesting in what you said there
7:46
is it sounds as if you did not take a militant, we just
7:50
want to ban this practice. You realize that there might be
7:54
objections from people who are— whose livelihoods depend on this, and you
7:58
decided that instead of just fight for a ban, you would try to
8:02
figure out who all the stakeholders were and sort of respond to those objections?
8:06
Yeah, and I, I, I realized it was a complex issue,
8:10
so I knew there was a lot I needed to learn, and I wanted to
8:14
get as much information as I could. So I reached out to, for instance, a
8:18
government relations attorney I worked with, and I also reached out to
8:22
some academics. For instance, at Thomas Jefferson University,
8:25
there was a program there that I got involved with.
8:29
And we— I worked with them on some of the graduate
8:33
students on this issue. They did a case study.
8:37
So now you have your organization, you hired a government relations
8:41
attorney, right? Yes. And what did he help you do?
8:45
Well, he was someone who had worked with city government, and
8:49
so he was familiar with a lot of the people who were involved
8:52
in terms of city council members and other city officials and
8:56
state officials who would be people we would want to talk with
9:01
to talk about the issue, to find out, you
9:05
know, what they know about it or what they could do about it, you know,
9:08
talk about what would be involved in seeking a ban
9:11
and ban legislation. So, you know, he was someone who
9:15
could help make introductions to some of these people.
9:19
He helped me in presenting my ideas, and he had a lot of great ideas
9:23
and, um, you know, helped with, uh, drafting a strategy
9:27
for our initiative. And, uh, he drafted some ban
9:31
horse carriage legislation, which we presented to city council members,
9:35
which, uh, I think was really helpful for them to see, you know,
9:39
how this could be shaped. That's,
9:42
that's very interesting. And I always like to point out sort of the advocacy lessons
9:46
in there, because there were There were a couple. One was
9:49
getting some knowledgeable help with some connections.
9:53
Another was you drafted something and gave it to city council
9:57
instead of just telling them, I want you to do something about this.
10:01
You said, here's a bill that I think would work.
10:05
So I think that's a great lesson. Have there been bans in other cities?
10:08
Did you have any models to look at? Exactly. Oh yes, there have been bans
10:12
in other cities. In fact, we were working
10:16
specifically looking at the
10:19
Chicago ban example and also the Salt
10:23
Lake City example. They were two different types of
10:27
examples, models. One was based on animal welfare
10:31
and one was based more on a business model.
10:35
So, you know, those were ideas we drew from and,
10:39
you know, working with legislation that actually had passed
10:43
and, you know, just making a few changes. And we also, not only was
10:47
I working with this attorney, but we were working with a very
10:50
prominent equine veterinarian named Holly Cheever,
10:55
who reviewed things as well. And she made suggestions. For instance,
10:59
instead of just saying banning horse-drawn carriages, she thought it was very
11:03
important to make it animal-drawn carriages, because it really, there are
11:07
places where they use mules. You know, there are other equines.
11:10
So just to, you know, again, to provide as much protection as
11:14
possible for the animals. And then with her
11:18
input, you had scientific background for the recommendations that you're making.
11:21
Oh, well, all of my advocacy is based on the veterinary data.
11:25
Absolutely. That's the bottom line. Because to me,
11:29
that's the whole foundation of this whole movement. You have to know what you're talking
11:33
about. It all has to do with the equine, rather the veterinary data.
11:37
You know, you had to prove, you know, is, why is this harmful? You know,
11:41
why should it be banned? You know, not just saying, oh, it's, it's cruel,
11:45
you know, or it's, you know, you have to be, give specific
11:48
veterinary data as to why this should be banned.
11:52
And that's, that's a very important advocacy. Sort of decision point there
11:56
too, because you were advocating for a ban and
12:00
I think a lot of, um, a lot of practices that animal
12:03
advocates things. Should be changed, you have that decision. Point
12:07
where you're trying to say, I wanna be realistic about what I'm seeking,
12:11
but should I be asking just to.
12:15
Make it a little safer, like a. Welfare provision that would say,
12:19
well, maybe we should lower the maximum temperature that
12:23
they can be out there or lower the number of hours that they can be
12:25
out there. But I don't think you ever went that direction, right? You just said
12:29
it should be banned. Right. And the reason for that is, again,
12:33
based on the veterinary data, it was very clear. And in fact,
12:37
even before that, there were, there were changes to the Philadelphia code
12:41
years ago as far as so-called welfare
12:45
improvements. They had like maximum temperature they can be out there. Yeah. Right. So
12:49
that, that was lowered a few years back. So,
12:52
you know, there were incremental changes, but looking at other
12:56
cities and based on the veterinary data, We strongly believe
13:01
that welfare so-called improvements are not enough.
13:05
The practice is harmful. Whether you lower the
13:08
max temperature a few degrees, it really doesn't make a difference. It's the problem
13:12
is the practice. So it's not just about temperatures or
13:16
certain details. It's the fact is that the practice itself is
13:19
just, it's unsustainable. You can't change things
13:23
like the road surface itself. You know, you can't change things that they're
13:27
in traffic. You can't change that. You can't change the
13:30
effect that the extreme temperatures have on these animals
13:34
physiologically. You know, those kind of things, there's nothing you can
13:38
do about it. You can say, well, they can't be out there above 90 degrees,
13:41
but even 90, again, the vet data says it's
13:45
not just the ambient temperature. You know, you have to look at the
13:49
humidity and the, you know, combined temperature and the humidity
13:52
and all of that affects them. So, you know, the fact that they're very
13:56
close to the asphalt, you know, the heat, you know, the, what the heat they're
14:00
experiencing is much greater than what we are experiencing. So those kind of factors
14:04
come into play. This is another one of those issues.
14:08
Also where you don't necessarily have to
14:11
advocate just because of the animals.
14:15
You don't have to appeal to a legislator's love of animals because
14:20
this is. A human welfare issue as well and a human safety issue, right?
14:23
Oh, absolutely. I think they go hand in hand. The animal welfare issue
14:27
for us is the most important, but of course, just as important
14:31
are the public safety issues involved. And because there are so
14:35
many accidents, there are so, you know, the
14:38
point of these animals are prey animals. So what happens
14:42
is when they get spooked, so to speak, they get startled,
14:45
oftentimes they will just by instinct, they'll bolt.
14:50
And then there are accidents. And this happens very frequently. It's
14:53
happened in Philadelphia with serious consequences. And it happens all the time
14:57
in cities where these are used. So, yeah,
15:01
absolutely. We always point that out. It's partly, it's an animal welfare issue.
15:04
Partly it's a public safety issue. And also the city has to consider
15:08
the fact of, you know, possible litigation when there are
15:12
accidents. And they're inevitable. That's just the nature of the horse-drawn
15:16
carriage practice. For sure. So
15:19
let's talk about your journey then. So in 2017, you started your
15:23
own organization. So that's 9 years ago now as of
15:27
this recording. Tell me how
15:31
you're— and you drafted the bill. What happened from there?
15:34
We presented it to a city council member who was very
15:38
involved in— this is his district. And
15:42
we presented it to some other city council members.
15:46
Essentially what we were told, this was back in probably
15:49
2018 into 2020, kind of the
15:53
pandemic was a bit of an interruption, but essentially what I
15:57
was told was, well, you know, can you provide
16:00
a, or suggest or provide a viable alternative to the carriages, horse-drawn
16:04
carriages, you know, because there are businesses
16:08
involved. So I did a lot of research at the time,
16:11
2018, I was seeing that these so-called electric
16:15
horseless carriages were starting to be used in cities
16:18
around the world, but not yet in the US. So I did a lot of
16:22
research. I connected with— they're called e-carriages—
16:25
electric carriage designers, operators
16:30
in different countries. And we had many meetings with
16:33
council members and different
16:37
organizations in Philadelphia and beyond. And the idea
16:40
was, well, maybe we could bring one over here for a city demo.
16:45
And that was in process for coming from another country when the
16:49
pandemic hit and things were interrupted. But essentially,
16:53
once things calmed down after the pandemic, there was
16:56
a company in the U.S. that started using electric carriages,
17:00
and I wanted to find out more about them and how things were
17:04
going. So I visited them in early 2023,
17:09
and I saw the carriages being used there, and it was just
17:12
amazing., and I knew this was going to, this could work very well
17:16
in Philadelphia. So from there I had the opportunity
17:20
to purchase one and I got some assistance from a
17:24
local foundation, Antorus Foundation, who's been
17:27
extremely supportive of our initiative. And, uh, and that's, so
17:31
we brought it up here. We did a lot of work on it, modified it
17:34
and debuted it in the Independence Day Parade in Philadelphia
17:37
in 2023. And it went over big.
17:41
Oh, it's amazing. We call the carriage Caroline, and we
17:45
named it after Caroline Earle White, who was a
17:48
19th century Philadelphia animal advocate who, uh, especially
17:52
was concerned with the carriage horses at that time. So we named it in
17:55
her honor, Caroline E. Carriage. And, um, well, you know, I
17:59
love that cuz she founded a lot of organizations around here, including the
18:02
Pennsylvania SPCA and, and, uh, American Anti-Vivisection
18:06
Society. I might do— I think I'm going to do a podcast just on her
18:09
as an inspirational advocate. Oh, she's an
18:13
extraordinary person. So, yeah, so we put the carriage out there. It
18:16
was— it got rave reviews. People loved it. And
18:20
we knew it was going to be something that could really work for
18:24
Philadelphia. So ever since, you know, it's been in all the big parades,
18:27
it's expanding our operations. And, you know, we really are very excited
18:31
about it. That's, that's great. So now you have a
18:36
practical, uh, alternative to propose to, like, all the other
18:40
tourist organizations that are around Old City that want to see, want to make sure
18:43
that there is something there to bring tourists in. So,
18:47
so what's been happening with the horses? I know I haven't seen them at 6th
18:50
and Market in a long time. What I know is that
18:54
my understanding is that in early
18:58
2023 It seemed like the last horse carriage company in the
19:01
city sold their stables property to a
19:05
developer, and they kind of ceased operations. And as
19:09
far as I know, there's no horse carriage companies operating in Philadelphia at this
19:13
time. No, I certainly haven't seen them. So does that mean that you don't need
19:17
your ban because you effectively got. Rid of them
19:21
anyway? No, absolutely not. We definitely need the ban. Because
19:25
there's no saying that other companies— that company or other
19:28
companies couldn't start up in Philadelphia, start up again, or
19:32
start up as a new company. So I think it's essential
19:36
that there be a ban on the horse carriages so that doesn't, you know,
19:40
again, become a thing again somewhere along the line. Someone
19:43
decides to, you know, start up. But you've made
19:47
great strides, and I think that your advocacy is a lesson in
19:51
persistence, and not just persistence, but creativity, coming up with an
19:55
alternative, understanding. That the legislators kind of, they have. To listen to
19:59
everyone and there are going to be business owners that are against it. So instead
20:02
of just, you know, trying. To win that tug of war, you. Came up with
20:05
a solution and I think it's amazing. Thank you. What we're
20:09
promoting is the so-called ban-replace. Model, which is— Yes, tell me about
20:13
that. Yeah, it's really the international trend
20:17
now, which is, and I think it's a win-win solution.
20:21
So Essentially, municipalities are encouraged
20:26
to ban the horse carriages, and many of them really want to for
20:29
various reasons, but also to replace them
20:33
with electric carriages. So what we're finding is that, and what we're
20:36
promoting, is numerous cities now are,
20:40
city governments are working with their carriage companies to try
20:44
to, you know, help them with the transition because really the
20:47
horse-drawn carriage companies or that industry is it's a
20:51
dying industry. The younger people really, the
20:54
statistics show that most or many younger people are not interested in
20:59
that. So like horse racing, you know, right? What we're seeing
21:03
is that many governments now, city governments, are working
21:06
with their carriage companies to try to help them in a
21:10
transition so that people don't have to lose jobs. It can
21:14
be just sort of a transition from the old industry to the
21:17
new industry. Which is electric carriages. So,
21:21
you know— Which I would think would be a more effective business model. I mean,
21:24
horses are not cheap to take care of. Right, exactly.
21:29
So like one city, for example, is San
21:32
Antonio. They banned the horse carriages, and they're now trying to work with their
21:36
carriage companies to make that transition
21:40
over the course of a few years. So, you know, I do
21:44
think this is the wave of the future. Pretty much like inevitable, I think,
21:48
because the horse carriages are sort of on their way out just in terms of,
21:51
you know, popularity and sustainability. All right.
21:55
Well, well, thank you, Janet. I appreciate learning about this, and I appreciate you giving
21:59
all of the podcast listeners an example of how you
22:03
can really make a difference by choosing your issue
22:06
and focusing and being fact and scientific
22:10
based and staying the course. So Thank you so
22:14
much. Thank you very much.
22:24
Honey. I hope Janet's story of advocacy fired you up the way it fires
22:28
me up, because it really is proof that you don't need a
22:32
law degree or political connections to make real change.
22:36
You need to care, you need to learn,, and you need
22:39
to keep going. I want to come back to Janet's ban
22:43
and replace approach because I think it's one of the most practical
22:47
advocacy strategies out there, and it applies to much more than
22:51
carriage horses. Whenever you're asking a legislator to end
22:55
a practice, the first question you're going to hear is, what about
22:59
the people whose livelihoods depend on it? If you don't
23:02
have an answer, the conversation might just stop right
23:06
there. But if you come to the table with a workable alternative, the
23:10
way Janet came up with an electric carriage, you've just made it a
23:13
whole lot easier for that legislator to say yes. You've turned
23:17
a fight into a solution. So whatever your
23:21
issue is, think about where you could apply that same thinking.
23:25
Don't just say stop. Say, here's
23:29
something better. And if you're listening to Janet's story and thinking, I wanna
23:32
do something like that, but I don't know where to start. That's exactly
23:36
why I created the Four Cs of Legislative Advocacy
23:41
for Animals. It's a free private podcast series where I walk
23:44
you through the four principles that every successful
23:48
animal advocacy campaign has in common. The
23:52
strategies Janet used, they map right onto this framework.
23:55
So head to
23:58
animaladvocacyacademy.com/fourcs. Four
24:02
Cs, F-O-U-R-C-S, and sign up to get access. It's a series
24:05
of 5 episodes, each under 10 minutes, that get delivered
24:09
to your inbox every other day, and it'll. Give you
24:12
a real roadmap for turning. Your passion for animals
24:16
into legislative action. I'll see you
24:20
next week. That's it for today. The Animal Advocate podcast
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