Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #126 Jason Flom with Amanda Knox in Times of COVID

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#126 Jason Flom with Amanda Knox in Times of COVID · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to a brand new mini series, Wrongful Conviction with
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Jason Flamm. In the time of COVID. You know, we're
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: moving into our second month since this was declared a pandemic,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: and many of us have been isolating for just as
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: long or even longer. Being away from our loved ones
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: is painful. Let's be honest, Being without physical touch just
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: playing sucks and there's only so much that video conferencing
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: can do to fill that void. So my team and
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: I have been reaching out to the experts our wrongfully
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: convicted community for advice on how to cope with the
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: dark side of isolation. Last week, we spoke with Damien
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Eccles of the West Memphis three, and if you haven't
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: had a chance, I strongly recommend listening to his advice
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  Speaker 1: about focusing on the things that you do have control over,
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  Speaker 1: like scheduling, self improvement, exercise, art, literature, and most importantly,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: holding on to your sense of humor through the darkness.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: This week, we'll talk to a woman who is at
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  Speaker 1: the center of an international scandal when she was demonized
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: in the media all while trying to navigate a legal
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: system in a language that was foreign to her. Eventually
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  Speaker 1: she was sentenced to twenty six years in an Italian
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  Speaker 1: prison for a crime she simply didn't commit. She'll tell
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: us about how she's holding up now, her concerns for
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: all those isolating alone as well as the currently incarcerated,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: and what she did to make the best use of
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: her time and to combat the absence of physical touch
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: while she was in prison. And you can hear her
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: entire story of triumph over tragedy in the first episode
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: of our second season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Plum.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: She's the host of Vice Media's Scarlet Letter Report and
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: the Truth About True Crime podcast, and she's someone that
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  Speaker 1: I proudly referred to as my little sister, Amanda Knox uncoping.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: In the time of COVID.
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  Speaker 1: They have one of my absolute favorite human beings, someone
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  Speaker 1: that I referred to as my little sister. Amanda Knox
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  Speaker 1: is our guest today.
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  Speaker 3: Hi Amanda, Hi big brother.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: How are things with you during this time of COVID,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: let's just call it, how are things with you?
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: And Chris?
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  Speaker 4: Well, we are very fortunate compared to a lot of people,
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  Speaker 4: even within our own family. You know, Chris and I haven't.
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  Speaker 3: Had to change our lifestyles all that much.
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  Speaker 4: We've already work from home, so we're used to being
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  Speaker 4: in that self disciplined rhythm. We're used to feeling a
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  Speaker 4: little caged up. We are healthy. We have not lost
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: our jobs. We cannot say the same for everyone in
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: our family. We have friends who have definitely lost their jobs.
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: There are a number of people in our family who
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  Speaker 4: are at high risk. I'm thinking particularly of my oma,
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: who is in her eighties and needs to go to
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: the hospital in a few weeks for heart surgery.
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  Speaker 3: So it's really a difficult.
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  Speaker 4: Time knowing how fragile we all are and having that reinforced,
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  Speaker 4: even if Chris and I personally are.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: Very, very fortunate.
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  Speaker 4: Like on the phone the other day, Jason, you said
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  Speaker 4: you're lucky to be quarantined with your partner, and I
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  Speaker 4: couldn't agree more. I have friends who don't have that privilege,
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  Speaker 4: and I understand what it means to not have loving,
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  Speaker 4: caring touch for a long, extended period of time.
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  Speaker 1: That's one of the things that I find the hardest
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  Speaker 1: to comprehend is when someone like you was in the situation.
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  Speaker 2: You were in. There.
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  Speaker 1: You are in a tiny cell in a foreign country.
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  Speaker 1: You really can't be more alone. And as you said,
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  Speaker 1: for years, you went without a friendly or loving touch
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  Speaker 1: from any other human being, right, And how did you
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  Speaker 1: cope with that? And what can we learn from that
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  Speaker 1: experience for people who are alone?
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  Speaker 2: Now?
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  Speaker 4: You know, my experience of it was it almost happened
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  Speaker 4: without me realizing it, where I stopped being used to
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  Speaker 4: people having loving touch towards me. I slowly, over the
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  Speaker 4: course of time, grew unfamiliar with human contact. You know,
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  Speaker 4: that wasn't a pat down, a strip search, or a
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  Speaker 4: potential threat from another inmate.
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  Speaker 3: I learned.
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  Speaker 4: Slowly that I was very alone, and that the only
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  Speaker 4: touch that belonged to me, and the only thing that
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  Speaker 4: belonged to me was my own and my own mind.
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  Speaker 4: So I'm thinking a lot about that these days. You know,
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  Speaker 4: I have friends who are struggling with that now, and
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  Speaker 4: you know, not just people that I know in prison,
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  Speaker 4: but I just have friends who don't have partners. And
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  Speaker 4: I remember what it felt like and how much it
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  Speaker 4: meant for someone to just hold your hand. And I deeply,
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  Speaker 4: deeply feel and empathize with anyone out there, imprisoned or not,
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  Speaker 4: who can't rely on that. So any insight that I
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  Speaker 4: have for how to deal with that. One thing that
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: I did when I was in prison and I felt
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  Speaker 4: very physically distant from people was when I wrote my
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  Speaker 4: letters to people at home, I would have a picture
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  Speaker 4: of them in front of me, and I got so
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  Speaker 4: lonely that it got to the point that I would
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  Speaker 4: caress their faces in the picture like I would touch
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  Speaker 4: the actual picture to feel like I was physically connecting
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  Speaker 4: with them in some way. And that sounds crazy. A
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  Speaker 4: lot of the things that I talk about when I
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: talk about surviving prison tactics make me sound like a
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  Speaker 4: crazy person, but that did help. Another thing that helped
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  Speaker 4: me was having a better understanding of my own body.
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  Speaker 4: So in the same way that I stayed sane by
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  Speaker 4: really feeding my mind and learning to express my thoughts
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  Speaker 4: even just to myself through either journaling or reflection. I
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  Speaker 4: think one thing that could greatly help people during this
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  Speaker 4: time is to find indoor activities that get you engaged
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  Speaker 4: with your own body. I cannot recommend yoga enough because
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  Speaker 4: you don't need a lot of space, and by moving
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  Speaker 4: through different poses, you discover muscles that you never knew existed.
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  Speaker 3: And that process.
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  Speaker 4: Of getting in touch with your own body can alleviate
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  Speaker 4: the feeling of being out of touch with other people's bodies.
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  Speaker 4: And you can find zoom classes online. There are great
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  Speaker 4: resources on YouTube. A lot of people are sharing their
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  Speaker 4: skills and wisdom out there, especially in the yoga realm, for.
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  Speaker 1: So many people who are now stuck in, you know,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: very small spaces relative to what they're used to anyway,
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  Speaker 1: not relative to what you were used to, but the
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  Speaker 1: walls maybe feeling like they're closing in. They have maybe
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  Speaker 1: you know, numerous people that they're sharing their space with.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it's a recipe for people to go stir crazy.
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  Speaker 2: But you had, you know.
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  Speaker 1: Just thinking about the concrete walls and the gray and
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  Speaker 1: the lack of creature comforts. But how did you I mean,
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  Speaker 1: you were flung into this situation, not of your own making.
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  Speaker 1: You were facing twenty six.
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  Speaker 2: Years of this.
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  Speaker 1: So for you, what were some of the things that
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  Speaker 1: besides yoga or caressing the photos?
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  Speaker 2: How did you adjust? I mean, how did you keep
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  Speaker 2: from just bouncing off the walls.
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  Speaker 4: Over the course of my imprisonment, I was either in
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  Speaker 4: a cell with one other person or a cell with
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  Speaker 4: four other people, and I learned what it was like
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  Speaker 4: to navigate a small space with lots of people, and
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  Speaker 4: also an even smaller place with just one other person.
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  Speaker 3: When we are in.
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  Speaker 4: Close quarters with each other, we all need to learn
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  Speaker 4: to understand each other's boundaries and needs and to come
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  Speaker 4: up with compromises and routines that we can rely on,
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  Speaker 4: so that at the very least there's something that we
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  Speaker 4: have control over. The thing that's really difficult about this
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  Speaker 4: time of coronavirus for all of us is the uncertainty.
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  Speaker 4: We don't know when it's going to be over. We
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: don't know what the world is going to look like
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  Speaker 4: once it is over, and we're sitting here in our
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  Speaker 4: small spaces feeling very powerless and out of control, like
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  Speaker 4: we don't have control over our own lives. So what
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  Speaker 4: I learned to do, and something that the prison environment
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  Speaker 4: kind of facilitates for you, is you don't really get
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  Speaker 4: to determine.
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  Speaker 3: What the routine is. You know, when you're in a.
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  Speaker 4: Prison cell, lunch comes. At the time that lunch comes,
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  Speaker 4: you don't have control over that. You don't have control
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  Speaker 4: over when dinner comes. What you do have are many, many,
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  Speaker 4: many many hours at a time in a small space
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  Speaker 4: where you have limited abilities of what you can do.
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  Speaker 4: And one thing that I did in a big cell
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  Speaker 4: or a small cell was I tried to think of
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  Speaker 4: how I could make this day worth living, because I
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  Speaker 4: was always having that conversation with myself where my time
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  Speaker 4: was the thing that was being taken from me, and
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  Speaker 4: was there any way that I could salvage my time
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  Speaker 4: in a meaningful way so that it made living worth it?
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  Speaker 4: And very often that meant that I was doing a
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  Speaker 4: heck of a lot of reading. I was studying languages,
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  Speaker 4: not just to try to become fluent in attack for
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: my own survival's sake, but also for the joy of
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  Speaker 4: learning languages. The one thing that I think that people
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  Speaker 4: are really dealing with right now that I didn't have
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  Speaker 4: to deal with prison, and that I think is both
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  Speaker 4: a blessing and a curse, is you know, in prison,
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  Speaker 4: one of the hardest things to do is to find
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  Speaker 4: reason to be purposeful. It's hard when you are removed
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  Speaker 4: from society and told that you're a worthless human being,
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  Speaker 4: less than a human being that doesn't have anything to
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  Speaker 4: offer society, to then get up every day and say
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  Speaker 4: I'm going to do something purposeful. I'm going to learn
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  Speaker 4: something because I'm worth something, and my mind through exercise
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  Speaker 4: has potential.
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  Speaker 3: Today, people in quarantine may.
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  Speaker 4: Be struggling with wondering when their next meal is going
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  Speaker 4: to come, how they can keep earning and have patent
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  Speaker 4: in the world when the source of their income and
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  Speaker 4: the way that they have spent their time has been
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  Speaker 4: removed from them.
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  Speaker 3: You know, it's one.
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  Speaker 4: Thing to say, use this time to like learn a
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  Speaker 4: new skill, but some people don't have the ability to
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  Speaker 4: learn a new skill when they're taking care of their
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  Speaker 4: children or they're trying to figure out how they're going
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  Speaker 4: to get a job in this economy. Not all of
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  Speaker 4: us have the privilege of finally getting to read that
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  Speaker 4: book that's been on the shelf for ages and ages
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  Speaker 4: and ages, And like, the one thing that I can
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  Speaker 4: say is, at the end of the day, there's only
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  Speaker 4: so much you can do. So at the start of
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  Speaker 4: the day, at any given day, you can think through
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  Speaker 4: what it is that you're able to do to solve
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  Speaker 4: the problems you have. And then once you've moved through
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  Speaker 4: all those motions that you can literally do in a
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  Speaker 4: single day, don't beat yourself up because you can't do
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  Speaker 4: anything more. Let yourself be at peace with the fact
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  Speaker 4: that you've done everything that you can do. That's something
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  Speaker 4: that I had to live with every day, was, you know,
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  Speaker 4: wishing that I could do so much more and trying
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  Speaker 4: to give myself a break when at the end of
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  Speaker 4: the day, I just I was still stuck there.
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  Speaker 3: I was still trapped.
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  Speaker 4: But I had written a letter to my mom, I
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  Speaker 4: had done three hundred sit ups, and that was what
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  Speaker 4: I could accomplish.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about art, music, literature. Were there particular pieces
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: of music or books or anything from the creative space
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  Speaker 1: that really helped you then or that are really helpful
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  Speaker 1: that other people might find helpful now even a even
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  Speaker 1: a special movie or what?
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  Speaker 2: What?
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  Speaker 4: What has fed my soul and what is feeding my
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  Speaker 4: soul today? Absolutely so, without a doubt. And I wonder
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  Speaker 4: if you could guess what my favorite book was in prison?
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  Speaker 3: Do you do you have any guess?
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  Speaker 2: Oh?
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  Speaker 1: Wait, I'm going to make a guess. I mean, I
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: could say Jess Mercy, or I could say something much more.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I don't know what's coming to mind. I
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  Speaker 1: mean Jonathan Livingston Seagull. I don't know what. Tell me.
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  Speaker 4: I did read that my favorite favorite book in prison
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: was The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and and.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: I have to say that, like then and now, I.
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  Speaker 4: Recommend any piece of literature or film or series or
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  Speaker 4: music that has world building.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: Built within it.
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  Speaker 4: I have a genuine appreciation for someone who can imagine
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: worlds and galaxies and create new rules for them and
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: for me. Because I'm so deeply involved with my work
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: with really sad, serious stuff, the kind of stuff that
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: you read about in Just Mercy. For my own sanity's sake,
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: I try to counterbalance that with a combination of British
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: humor and weird Al. So I'm a big, huge fan
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: of weird Al. I love someone who's willing to be
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: silly and absurd and create this whole other alternate reality
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  Speaker 4: to the one that we're sitting in that is just
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: a lot more fun.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: What weird Al should I be checking out. I'm really
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: not that familiar. Other than his hit songs, I don't
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  Speaker 1: really know much of it.
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, Wow, his albums are so solid. Honestly,
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  Speaker 4: I would love for you to see his music videos
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  Speaker 4: because he's also such an incredible performer. He has an
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: amazing presence, and since we do have access to the Internet,
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: unlike in prison, we can enjoy that. So, I mean,
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: white and Nerdy is so funny, and he's just aware
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: of himself in a way that gives me hope for humanity,
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: where he can make fun of himself and the world
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: by creating these alternate realities in the same way Hitchhiker's
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: Guide to the Galaxy was this huge escape for me
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: in prison, where I would be totally sad sitting on
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  Speaker 4: my cot in the prison, and I would just stick
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: ear plugs in and stick my nose in that book
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: and find myself giggling despite myself.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: It's funny. Just reminded me.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know why, but thinking about weird Al reminded
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: me of a song.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: I had to look it.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Up to see who it was by, but I don't
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: know if you've ever heard, there's a wonderful video called
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Everyday Normal Guy by I don't know that one John Lahoy.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: It's sort of a play on rap. He's basically taking
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: the piss out of himself and so he talks about,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: you know, the lyric start off of just a regular,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: everyday normal guy, nothing special about me, motherfucker.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: He probably learned from weird Al.
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: If I had to guess, I mean, weird Al is
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: the source of all hilarious inspiration in terms of the music.
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: I think Lonely Island and even Fly to the Concords.
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: Everyone is inspired by weird Al and he he's just
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: a nice guy who who is willing to be silly
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: for our benefit.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: So I feel like we've covered a lot of ground
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: here and now I guess all this really left is
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: for me to say, you know, thank you again for
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: making time to do this. And I always.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: Of course Jason always, it always makes me feel better
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: to talk to my big brother.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Oh well, I you know, I don't know what to say.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna get all choked up here in a minute.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: But so I'm going to thank everyone for listening. Of course,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: don't tune out yet, because the best is yet to come.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Once again, have my hands in the in the prayer
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: position by my heart as I say this.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Thank you just for being.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: You and for being a part of my life and
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: for sharing with our audience. It means the world to me.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: And now the floor as yours. I'm just going to
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: sit back and listen. So Amanda Knox for words of wisdom.
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: So I know that, like right now, this time is
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: a period that's particularly frustrating because everyone is reacting differently
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: to this pandemic. Some people are really aware of it
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: and embracing all of the things that need to be
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: done to protect themselves from it. A lot of people
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: are in denial about it and everything on that spectrum.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: And the one thing that I try to keep in
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: mind when I am thinking about this is a lot
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: of people are not doing the right thing in response
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: to what is happening, just like a lot of people
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: are making wrongful convictions happen, and you know a lot
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: of those people are doing so with malicious content, but.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: A lot of people aren't.
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: A lot of people are scared, a lot of people
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: are being fed bad information, a lot of people are
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: in denial, and there's a lot of psychological factors that
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: are going on as people are processing this very very
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: difficult time. And my one recommendation for everyone going through
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: this as they're interacting with people in the world is
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: to remember that like kindness does go a long way.
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: That doesn't mean not holding people accountable or not calling
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: people out who are doing the wrong thing, but remembering
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: that it's not a good versus evils equation. It's humans
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: being dumb, which we all are at least that's how
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: I feel about it.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we all are dumb to some varying degrees, and I,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: you know, I recognize it in myself.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: It's funny, but yes, we all have.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: Our we all of our blind spots, and we all
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: are we all have our like.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: I look the.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: World and I see like I ask myself, why do
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: people make these huge mistakes that have impacts on other
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: people's lives? And I can't believe that the vast majority
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: of them are sitting there cackling away thinking that they're
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: doing something horrible to someone. I think a lot of
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: people are trying to do what they think is right
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: without recognizing that they aren't acknowledging all of the information
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: available to them, and the vast majority of them are
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: being selfish, but being selfish in a very human way.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: That really comes down to fear and denial. And the
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: way that you combat that, I've found is by seeing
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: where it's coming from but also calling it what it is,
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: which is the person across from you is not an
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: evil person. They're just a person, if that makes any sense.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: It's kind of a big topic that I think about
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: a lot. When I think about prosecutors and when I
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: think about investigators, I'm always trying to really see the
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: person across from.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: Me who is so wrong.
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: And yet not succumb to a thinking that doesn't actually
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: help me engage with them and fix the problem. So
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: I don't know, I guess that's my plug for being
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: ever thoughtful and having compassion even for those who don't
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: seem to deserve it.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: Be kind.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: The first step to knowing yourself is being kind to yourself,
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: and that then leads you to be your best self.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: This is a time that is very difficult for everyone
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: to be their best self, but you can do it.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: Love you.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Well, right or giving a flat for that one? Wow,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: this is really It's always a great experience speaking with Amanda,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: but that was particularly meaningful for me because I'm going
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: through the same things, some of the same things that
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: many of you are going through. And to hear Amanda
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: talk about how she almost created her own version of
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: FaceTime by using photographs of people she loved and caressing
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: those photographs, I mean, wow, that really puts things in
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: perspective for me.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Amanda.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: I just feel privileged to be able to be a
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: part of helping you help others by sharing your story.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: And before we sign off from me and everyone on
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: the Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm team and members of
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: our extended family, I want to extend our heartfelt thanks
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: to our healthcare providers, essential workers and first responders, and
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: everyone who's keeping our society going.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: In the meantime, I hope you've been listening to false
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: confession experts Laura and I writer and Steve Drisen as
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: they enlighten all of us about how the hell so
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: many people would ever admit to crimes that they didn't commit,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: and stay tuned for our new season of Ronful Conviction
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: with Jason Flomm coming up in May. Next week, we're
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: talking to the one and only nick Yaris and if
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: you want to get a head start on his story,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: we released a two parter season nine, episode.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Five that will blow your mind.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: So come back for more alternative perspective on living in
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: the time of COVID from someone who's been to hell
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: and back. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: It really helps. And I'm a proud.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Be sure to.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one