Latest / Draw Me Anything with Jason Chatfield / The Watercolour Control Problem with Jessie Kanelos Weiner

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The Watercolour Control Problem with Jessie Kanelos Weiner · Draw Me Anything with Jason Chatfield

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm just going to welcome everybody.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much for joining us.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Jessie Kanellis-Weiner.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm the author of Livian Watercolor Newsletter,
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: author of the new book Thinking in Watercolor,
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: and we're so thrilled to have Jason with us today.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: Jason, do you want to tell us, you know, present yourself, who you are?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: In a nutshell.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like you, I'm an artist who's also a comedian.
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  SPEAKER_00: But instead of Paris, I'm in New York.
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  I do a subset called New York Cartoons,
• 0:29
  which details my life in New York with my dog,
• 0:33
  Morris.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hey, Morris.
• 0:38
  yeah that's me in a nutshell perfect so today we're going to
• 0:43
  talk a little bit
• 0:43
  about watercolor i'm just really curious just to hear everyone
• 0:46
  has their own
• 0:47
  philosophy and as far as color is concerned tone uh this will
• 0:51
  be pretty you know
• 0:52
  conversational and in the best possible way but i'm just
• 0:55
  curious i mean i know
• 0:56
  you're a self-taught artist but how do you understand color how
• 0:59
  do you see color
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: how do you decide to use color or not
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I actually, so I didn't go to art school.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: I never studied at a, you know, art college or anything like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I had to kind of look,
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: reverse engineer other people's work and then kind of figure out like,
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: how do they get that?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: How do they do that?
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  SPEAKER_00: And I went to the Met recently to see a whole bunch of different...
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  SPEAKER_00: Paintings that I was learning about.
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  I read the da Vinci biography by Walter Isaacson about the
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  techniques that he developed.
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  And I was trying to look at these paintings and reverse
• 1:40
  engineer how he did it.
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  And instead of encouraging me to use color more and everything,
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  it actually...
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  My philosophy on it now is that it's like just because you can
• 1:53
  doesn't mean you should.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I use it very, very sparingly.
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  And I tend to use it more like there's artists like John Cuneo
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  and Barry Plitt.
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  who use it just sort of in daubs and just like little sparing
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  sort of spots that
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  draw the eye where it needs to go rather than doing the whole
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  thing as a completely
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  SPEAKER_00: worked out,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: color painting.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: I had a reflexive,
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  SPEAKER_00: when I saw the Da Vinci stuff,
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  SPEAKER_00: when I saw all the other paintings,
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  SPEAKER_00: I had a reflexive,
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  SPEAKER_00: like I recoiled them.
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  SPEAKER_00: I love the work.
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  SPEAKER_00: I adore the work.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I'm like, I don't need to do that.
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  I used to think that's what I needed to do to be like a real
• 2:33
  artist and draw.
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  But now I'm like,
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  I sort of pull back and just sort of dab where I need to pull
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  the focus.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just curious.
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  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't want to out you, but you are Australian.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm just curious about like the museums you grew up going to,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: what is in your,
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  SPEAKER_03: if you were to track out your artistic lineage,
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  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_03: what's in it?
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  SPEAKER_03: Who are your big references as far as,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: humor is concerned and also artists you grew up looking at?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I grew up in a very small city called Perth.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's the most isolated city in the world, in Western Australia.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we didn't have a lot of art.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's not a lot of galleries.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's one gallery.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a big art gallery at WA.
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  SPEAKER_00: And once in a while,
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  SPEAKER_00: there'd be a few little boutique galleries that would pop up to show,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: paintings someone did of the beach.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a coastal town.
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  So there's a lot of watercolors of sunsets and beaches,
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  a lot of landscapes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really get a very good... I had a very narrow sort of...
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  SPEAKER_00: The internet was pretty new.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was on dial-up.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't get the education a lot of people get now with like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: with Pinterest and Instagram and all these things where you're just like
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  discovering these things based on what an algorithm can show
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  you that you might
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  SPEAKER_00: like.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I had to go out of my way.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like I would travel a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: I went to London and New York and Paris and all around like Indonesia,
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  SPEAKER_00: Singapore,
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  SPEAKER_00: Malaysia,
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  SPEAKER_00: New Zealand,
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  SPEAKER_00: Japan.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like I had to like broaden my palette.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the influences that I had were so sparse.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like I had all these different influences as far as humor.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was a lot of the cartoonists like Richard Thompson who did Cul-de-sac.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was...
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  SPEAKER_00: a lot of editorial cartoonists like Anne Telnes.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was,
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  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: all these different influences,
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  SPEAKER_00: a lot of New Yorker cartoonists,
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  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
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  SPEAKER_00: like I was a big fan of pretty much everyone in the New Yorker,
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  SPEAKER_00: if I'm honest,
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  SPEAKER_00: like Mort Gerberg,
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  SPEAKER_00: all these people who could like
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  and paint a scene and then draw the eye around the image to
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  land exactly where they
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  SPEAKER_00: intended it to land to sell the joke.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like Chuck Saxon and Roz Chast.
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  SPEAKER_00: I love Roz Chast.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: He's a color in a really nice way.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: so my influence is just an amalgam of like painters,
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  SPEAKER_00: classic painters,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then like classical painters and neoclassical painters,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then also modern cartoonists.
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  And then in the other sense,
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  like traditional incas like Ronald Searle,
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  like incredible...
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  SPEAKER_00: Artists,
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  SPEAKER_00: painter,
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  SPEAKER_00: cartoonists,
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  SPEAKER_00: draftsmen,
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  just beautiful work that I was just drawn into and obsessed
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  with because my
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  grandfather gave me a book of his work when I was very young
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  because he was a POW
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  SPEAKER_00: in Singapore.
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  And he would trade cigarettes for scraps of paper so that he
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  could sketch what was
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  SPEAKER_00: happening in the camp.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's this whole book of his whole life from there onwards.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was just mesmerized by how this trauma that he had just...
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  SPEAKER_00: translated into like Centrinians,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: and all these incredible,
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  SPEAKER_00: silly,
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  SPEAKER_00: wacky,
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  SPEAKER_00: crazy characters and his lens on the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, Searle had a big influence on me.
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  SPEAKER_00: Stedman to a degree as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think my top level, Richard Thompson.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think he was a genius, I think.
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  SPEAKER_00: But not a lot of people knew who he was.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  And did he grow up,
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  you know,
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  watching movies and TV and all that as well?
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we got like American TV and movies.
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  SPEAKER_00: Australia has a very narrow cultural output.
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  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we got a lot of American stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: Ren and Stimpy was like a big thing in my house.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm of the same generation.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: Nickelodeon is a big,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I remember like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: Rocco's Modern Life and Doug and Bobby's World and Ren and Stimpy,
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  SPEAKER_00: all those shows.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was sort of like looking at the TV with a clipboard.
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  I had a little clipboard with like printer paper and a big,
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  like a ballpoint pen.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I would be like trying to copy off the TV.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: What is this?
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, every frame is different.
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  There was no model to follow because every frame of Ren and
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  Stimpy is totally different.
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  SPEAKER_00: And years later, I got to meet Bob Camp, who worked on Ren and Stimpy.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what the hell does it matter with you guys?
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  SPEAKER_00: He was like, we didn't grab it.
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  SPEAKER_00: He was like, we just did whatever we wanted.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yeah, it looks like it too.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I did have that as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: That was a big piece of my, you know, derangement of my brain.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, the humorous side of it, too, I'm sure.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely.
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  SPEAKER_03: So I'm just curious.
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  SPEAKER_03: You were very modest with your presentation of yourself,
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  SPEAKER_03: but you have done cartoons for The New Yorker and Mad Magazine,
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  SPEAKER_03: amongst many,
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  SPEAKER_03: many other places.
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  SPEAKER_03: But I'm just curious about your process as far as when you have an idea,
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  SPEAKER_03: when you decide to use color or not.
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  SPEAKER_03: I know there's a lot of sketching that happens and, you know.
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  SPEAKER_03: working on an initial idea,
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  you have to be super economical as far as the visual and
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  everything that goes
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  SPEAKER_03: together.
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  SPEAKER_03: So when you do use color, why and what inspires you to do so?
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  SPEAKER_03: Or we can talk about tone too.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: I remember trying to figure out how to do...
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  SPEAKER_00: This past week,
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  SPEAKER_00: I was commissioned by...
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  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of the New Yorker,
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  I was commissioned by the Philadelphia Eagles to do their
• 8:15
  official game day poster
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  SPEAKER_00: for this week.
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  Every time they have an away game,
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  they commission an artist to do the official poster.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they theme it around the location.
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  SPEAKER_00: So if it's Texas, they try and make a cowboy shootout thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: In New York, they were like, hey, we'd like to do a New Yorker-style...
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  SPEAKER_00: like a poster where it's a parody of the classic New Yorker cover.
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  SPEAKER_00: But instead of the New Yorker, it's like the Philadelphian.
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  SPEAKER_00: And instead of Eustace Tilly with the hat and the,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: eyeglass and the butterfly,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's one of the players and he's like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: buff and decked out.
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  SPEAKER_00: And instead of the top hat, it's his helmet sitting up there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they said, we want it in color.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, well...
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  We can do it exactly in the colors of the New Yorker's
• 9:01
  traditional...
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  I have it right here.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's the original 1925, very first New Yorker cover was this.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is the very first cover of the New Yorker.
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  SPEAKER_00: And these colors are very muted.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're very pastels and very plain.
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  SPEAKER_00: And part of that was...
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  the techniques at the time and the printing processes so they
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  couldn't do these
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  SPEAKER_00: big,
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  SPEAKER_00: bold,
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  SPEAKER_00: crazy Pantone spot colors and glosses and all this stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: I had to keep it pretty simple.
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  But I initially decided,
• 9:33
  all right,
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  I'm going to do it just like this color and I sent it in.
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  SPEAKER_00: There were a lot of drafts back and forth and when I sent it in,
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  SPEAKER_00: I was like, well, this is how I've decided to approach the color.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, oh, no, we want it totally different.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's going to take a while.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I literally spent like two days painting.
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  And I did it digitally because there were so many changes and
• 9:57
  layers and things.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I would have preferred to do it by hand with watercolor.
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  SPEAKER_00: But they just came back.
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  SPEAKER_00: They have like nine or six,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: seven,
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  SPEAKER_00: eight,
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  SPEAKER_00: nine,
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  SPEAKER_00: depending on the day,
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  SPEAKER_00: people who will sign off on each iteration.
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  So that's a tough thing to do when you're working in color and
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  you have clients who
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  SPEAKER_00: are in a tight turnaround with different sign-off,
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: like an art director and a campaign manager.
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  It's like you're all over the place and you're trying to stay
• 10:26
  focused on the finished product.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're trying to keep it in that little navigator window.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: But it can tuck the joy out of the process too.
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  SPEAKER_00: It really can.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: It really can.
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  SPEAKER_03: If you're feeling overconfident about it.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's right.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I approach...
• 10:40
  So I have this sort of overarching approach when it comes to
• 10:43
  things like color.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, if it serves the image, if it serves...
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: The gag, the idea, the concept, the color has to be doing something.
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  SPEAKER_00: It can't just be for the sake of coloring it in, you know?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've seen jokes that have just been like dressed up with color.
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  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's a pretty thin gag, but they've just drawn it really nicely.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So they're like, yeah, okay, well, I guess at least it's nice to look at.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that funny or interesting or clever.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:13
  So coming back to what I was saying before about the philosophy
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  with color being
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: very selective and stuff like that,
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  SPEAKER_00: I really kept my palette,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially for this New Yorker parody thing,
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  SPEAKER_00: I kept my palette very narrow.
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  There's really only three main colors in it and the rest are
• 11:31
  just a slight
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  SPEAKER_00: variation on a theme,
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  SPEAKER_00: which that's my sweet spot.
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  That's where I like to kind of dance is just keeping the
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  palette super simple and then
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: creativity within confines like that that kind of um
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  knowing that you don't have the infinity of the palette of the
• 11:49
  entire spectrum to
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: play with is actually very liberating because you're like,
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
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  now I have a problem to solve and I have these three things to
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  solve it with.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I really like to do that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I do that with my digital work.
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  SPEAKER_00: I do it with my commissions, with my New Yorker cartoons.
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  If there's a New Yorker cartoon that needs a color to sell the
• 12:05
  idea,
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  I'll do it as a spot color.
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  And if it's an illustration for their daily shouts where it's
• 12:12
  like 10 illustrations...
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  I will usually just find one or two colors and just use those
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  throughout the thing,
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  SPEAKER_00: throughout the whole piece,
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: just to kind of keep it consistent.
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  SPEAKER_00: And green, I don't know why I always lean towards green.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: For some reason, this exact green here is like my wall.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I just gravitate towards greens for some reason.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: Green is quite polarizing, too.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: I worked as a food stylist before I was an illustrator.
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  And green,
• 12:40
  you should never buy a green plate because it kills all colors
• 12:42
  that you see.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: So it's very polarizing.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: But I love green, too, as you can tell.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's probably my favorite color.
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  But I think the nuances in the printing of green is especially
• 12:52
  complicated as well.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that's a really good point, too.
• 12:57
  I've been kind of preaching this similar point about just
• 13:00
  giving yourself these restrictions.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you're working with two colors instead of two complementary colors,
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  and you're really having to find the solutions to using these
• 13:08
  in an interesting
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: way.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's a good reminder to everyone.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: Tuning in that sometimes don't overthink it.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: Give yourself a little limitation and just see what happens.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think also, I mean, that goes for tools as well.
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  Like I have all these different pens and nibs and different
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  kinds of pencils and
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  SPEAKER_00: brushes and stuff.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if I'm really honest,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: if I had to,
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: if there was a fire and I had to grab something and run,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'd probably just grab like,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Probably a dip pen.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Probably my The Hunt 101 dip pen.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's about it.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And a bottle of ink.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think the tyranny of choice, of too much choice can be paralyzing.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: You think you want to sit down and do something,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: and then all of a sudden you're like,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: what am I going to use?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you do limit yourself...
• 13:57
  It actually is very,
• 14:00
  I mean,
• 14:01
  sounds counterintuitive,
• 14:02
  but it's very liberating.
• 14:03
  You can know that you're only going to use these five tools and
• 14:06
  you're like,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: similar to color,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just use,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'll find a solution using just these tools and then I'll figure it out,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's also,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: mastering that one,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: the dip pen too enough where you can say like,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: this is,
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to leave my archives,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: but I'm going to take the pen with me.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's my weapon of choice now.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: I never, ever used to be.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was so petrified of dip pens just because of so much can go wrong.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the, the Crowquill little, I think it's a Hunt 1-2.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then the, yeah, the Hunt 101 Imperial, this one here.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: They're my, they're my weapons of choice really.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're a nightmare to use, but I still need them.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you did?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I did.
• 14:51
  I had a little gift certificate out of a fancy Parisian
• 14:54
  bookstore,
• 14:54
  and I bought that.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know why,
• 14:55
  but it's been interesting just to kind of lean into line work
• 14:59
  and kind of just find
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: that careful balance.
• 15:02
  I'm a colorist,
• 15:03
  if you can't tell with how I'm dressed and everything that I
• 15:05
  do,
• 15:05
  but...
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm trying to think a little bit more strategically about line,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: about actually using colors,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: understanding them in an interesting way,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: because I think there's always so much to learn.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: Color theory in itself is so complex.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: But I wanted to ask you,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: do you have any,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: we've already spoken a few times,
• 15:20
  but do you have any specific questions about watercolor or
• 15:23
  anything that you're
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: struggling with at the moment that you want to ask me about?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've been reading your book,
• 15:27
  and it's been an interesting year for that because all the
• 15:31
  projects that I've had
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: on my drawing board have demanded completely different approaches,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: and some of them have been out in the field.
• 15:39
  And it's been interesting to kind of look at your process and
• 15:42
  your sort of ethos
• 15:43
  about capturing things and the spontaneity of drawing things in
• 15:49
  your lens and
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: your...
• 15:53
  what to exclude like what what you're leaving out of a
• 15:56
  composition um and just kind
• 15:58
  of also learning to play like with with watercolor especially i
• 16:03
  get so caught up in
• 16:04
  the oh it has to look this way it has to be perfect you know
• 16:08
  i'm desperately i'm
• 16:09
  using you know paper towel to try and exert more control than i
• 16:14
  have any business
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: having over the image and um i think
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Lately,
• 16:20
  the thing that I've been really trying to relinquish is this
• 16:24
  idea that I can
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: control every aspect or every element of the color and how it works.
• 16:33
  There are things I know that you can do to get a decent amount
• 16:37
  of control,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: but to a large extent,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: watercolor is seeding
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: I guess a lot of control to the universe, to chaos in a way.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: You think it's going to do one thing and then it does another thing.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess that's what it's doing.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that's what it is.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So because I have this sort of perfectionist tendencies around color,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: because it's so sparing,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I need it to be exactly how I want.
• 17:05
  I'm struggling with that sort of relinquishing of the
• 17:10
  unclenching of like...
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Just letting it do what it's going to do.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: I really find that challenging.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there's a lot of stuff in my...
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think testing is everything with watercolor.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: You always have to test your variables.
• 17:25
  And it's always good to work with the same material,
• 17:28
  speaking of your beloved pen.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: But the more you know your paper,
• 17:30
  the more that you can push it to the limit and you can accept
• 17:33
  that it's going to do
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: what you want it to do.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: So it's all about reliable results.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll show you what I'm working on at the moment.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's very wacky,
• 17:40
  but I'm creating this installation where I'm creating all of
• 17:45
  this three-dimensional
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: watercolor food.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, I love that.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, if you want ones, I got it for you.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: But even something like this,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: I made these lilies,
• 17:59
  but I knew that I needed this cotton paper to create the worm
• 18:02
  that I wanted.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: And it had the softness and it held the light in a specific way.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I think once you know your materials,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: obviously don't buy all of the papers,
• 18:11
  but maybe just alternating between a higher quality paper and a
• 18:14
  less quality paper
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: just to kind of know,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: maybe...
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: I want to create a really cool bleed.
• 18:19
  So,
• 18:20
  you know,
• 18:20
  how am I going to be able to assure that this paper can deliver
• 18:23
  on that?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when you use something like 100% cotton.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: Take out a mortgage on your apartment.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know, right?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the cold press.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: The cold press stuff is good, yeah.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's expensive.
• 18:38
  It's worth it in special occasions,
• 18:40
  but it's not to give yourself any kind of complex either.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where the perfectionism comes from,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: is that I've spent money on this paper,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm like,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: it has to be good,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: because I can't throw this away like it's a piece of cartridge paper.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I got these, the Bien Fang...
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I don't know that brand.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's, I think, I think it's German or Canadian.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the two.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually quite good.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's got a really nice tooth to it.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's...
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've only just started using it instead of the Canson stuff.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I did bring some stuff, you know, at Magazine Sennelier over there.
• 19:19
  I just like got an armful of watercolor blocks and just like
• 19:24
  crammed them into my suitcase.
• 19:26
  And I was trying all these different things and I couldn't even
• 19:28
  tell you what they
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: were called because they were just like,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: it was just a mess.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, so many of them were like pretty pricey.
• 19:36
  So I was like,
• 19:37
  oh,
• 19:37
  this better be good because I only have one shot of this,
• 19:40
  you know.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd say a lot of people think you just sit down and you knock out,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: a masterpiece,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: entre guillemets,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: as we say in French.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: But I think there's so much more.
• 19:51
  It's like science where you're...
• 19:52
  No,
• 19:52
  I don't know anything about science.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's a bad word.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: You're allowed to test out the variables.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing happened just on its own.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like I've created...
• 20:01
  10 different versions of this image and finally one works but
• 20:05
  it's usually the
• 20:06
  first one is the best at the end of the day too but I think you
• 20:09
  always have to
• 20:10
  remind yourself that it's just you're allowed to test you're
• 20:13
  allowed to cut things
• 20:14
  up if something doesn't work out you're allowed to try again
• 20:17
  you know I'll show you
• 20:18
  I'll show you the living mess which is my current studio space
• 20:22
  here but nice I love
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: that that's so great a giant painting one meter wide
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: The same themes of in the book, thinking in watercolor.
• 20:34
  So don't be afraid to even something that I mentioned in the
• 20:38
  book as well is if you
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: do a sketch,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: even just a quick pencil sketch,
• 20:41
  throw on some color on top of the sketch or do some take some
• 20:45
  photocopies and then
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: just try out different variables because.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think if you feel more,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: nothing happens by chance in art,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: but at the same time,
• 20:54
  if you could test that out before you actually pull out the
• 20:57
  20-year-old piece of
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: paper or whatever,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: you'll feel better about it.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I think color obviously has so much to do with where the composition,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: where your focal point is.
• 21:07
  And then obviously when you're telling a joke too,
• 21:09
  it needs to be able to deliver that as well.
• 21:12
  But yeah,
• 21:13
  I have a heavy hand with color just because I love color and
• 21:16
  all of its methods.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: I use a lot of red sometimes, but I've learned to not do that.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Very emotional color.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is.
• 21:23
  And I think it can be really strong,
• 21:24
  especially doing editorial stuff in the past.
• 21:27
  I've decided to go for red and it wasn't the right choice,
• 21:30
  but I understand that now.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: But test out the variables, submit to the moment.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think with watercolor too,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: I should maybe set a timer when I'm doing a watercolor too to say like,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: I know I have 30 seconds where this layer is still wet.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: I can still keep building.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's also an important element of
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: understanding the process of it and knowing when to stop to.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: I did a watercolor with my son the other day.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, okay, I'm going to let it dry down.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: And he took four paper towels and then he was just black.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is that how it works?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually...
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: that's one of the things,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: speaking of,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: the perfectionism and the control is,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: wanting it to just dry quickly,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: wanting the immediate,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: gratification.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to see what it looks like dry already.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, come on.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I get the hair dryer out, you know, but that kind of…
• 22:24
  ruins it sometimes like it just feels like watercolor is this
• 22:28
  it requires patience
• 22:29
  and it requires you know an ability to see control to a degree
• 22:34
  and and like you say
• 22:36
  testing probably does offset some of that you know um i know
• 22:41
  that there's a there's
• 22:41
  a cartoonist do you know sam gross ever see his work in the new
• 22:44
  yorker so he taught
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: me a trick that he does because his his washes were so just like
• 22:51
  It looked so haphazard,
• 22:52
  just like,
• 22:53
  like he randomly,
• 22:54
  and they're beautiful,
• 22:55
  like it's perfect.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: It looks so casually done.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And he said the trick was what he'd do is he'd do the inks,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: but then he'd make like four photocopies of the image.
• 23:07
  And he would have them as like a backup in case the first thing
• 23:11
  didn't work.
• 23:12
  But psychologically,
• 23:14
  knowing that he had the others meant that he had more freedom
• 23:17
  to just try.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then inevitably, the first try would be perfect.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: But he wouldn't.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: He would have been too nervous to do it.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: It wouldn't have been perfect if he hadn't made all the copies.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he would never use the photocopies.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: He'd just have them as a psychological safety net.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely.
• 23:36
  I think I don't want to compare this to sports because that's
• 23:39
  another subject I
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: don't know too much about.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's just muscle memory.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's training.
• 23:44
  It's drawing a little bit every day,
• 23:46
  finding the confidence to just nail that first attempt.
• 23:50
  I don't think it's necessarily about,
• 23:52
  but once again,
• 23:52
  I draw all day every day,
• 23:54
  but I haven't.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: instinct as well.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: But if you still are not confident in the process,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: just even if it's,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think something that's different about my book too,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: Theia and Watercolor,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: is that it's,
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: there are more abstract ways of entering watercolor.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just about picture perfect,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: photorealistic work too,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: which is fine,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: but AI exists now too.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: So why even bother doing that?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: And photography exists for a reason.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: So
• 24:18
  It's just about maybe there's another way that you could just
• 24:20
  practice watercolor,
• 24:21
  maybe just creating some kind of composition with overlapping
• 24:24
  geometric shapes,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: that feeling like you have to really,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: be perfect on every...
• 24:30
  Sometimes I feel like people forget about the ideas behind art
• 24:32
  and not necessarily
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: just about the...
• 24:36
  painting something in front of you or copying something that
• 24:38
  exists already.
• 24:39
  So that's something people should consider a little bit more,
• 24:43
  I think,
• 24:43
  globally.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: Do you find that too?
• 24:45
  Hearing from readers and people wanting to develop their
• 24:50
  creative practice a little bit deeper?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what you...
• 24:54
  We probably get similar things in our inbox about that because
• 24:58
  there are people who
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: have,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: a different idea about what creating art is.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: They've seen or heard or read about,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:08
  different artists and their process and then that's stuck in
• 25:10
  their head as,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: that's how it's done.
• 25:12
  And my philosophy on it is because I didn't go to art school,
• 25:17
  I don't have those...
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: hard and fast traditional rules in my head that are unbreakable kind of
• 25:23
  foundational things i i kind of just do things how i do things
• 25:28
  and i sort of
• 25:29
  champion everyone finding their version of that instead of
• 25:32
  going being prescriptive
• 25:34
  and saying here's how it's done you know because i know that
• 25:36
  there are specific
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: like foundational things it was like it's just science um
• 25:42
  in art where it's like well this is what happens if you do this
• 25:45
  if you mix these
• 25:46
  two colors you're gonna get this this is how light works you
• 25:49
  know there are
• 25:50
  foundational things but then your version of getting those
• 25:53
  results or getting like
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: a style or a look um
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: I always like push people to just like find their own process,
• 26:01
  like dig into their own thing instead of trying to replicate
• 26:04
  somebody else's.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really important.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think like the requests that when people get in touch,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: they're asking me very specific things about tools and about process.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, this is how I do it.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not necessarily how you have to do it.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been doing, you know, charging things.
• 26:25
  um like the watercolor technique of just like you know wetting
• 26:28
  it up and then just
• 26:29
  like dabbing yes yes charge um i had someone asking about that
• 26:34
  and i realized i
• 26:36
  never i don't remember how i learned to do that i think i just
• 26:39
  i don't know if i
• 26:41
  saw someone do it on a video or a i don't know where and i'm
• 26:45
  like and i didn't even
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: know that it was called charging i had to look it up
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I didn't know that.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:52
  apparently it was like all these different words for the
• 26:53
  different kinds of
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: watercolor technique.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I guess that's what it is.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so in people requesting like feedback or asking questions,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: I end up kind of doing some research myself and going,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I know that.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to look it up just so that I don't give them bad advice.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: That was a big part of it, yeah.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a big part of writing in the book,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: too,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: is like,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a self-taught watercolor,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: so how can I articulate these things?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: I know they have their proper ways, but maybe can I rebrand them?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: Am I allowed to do that?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: But it's interesting.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the self-taught portion of doing what we do, it's amazing.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: But hey, I think the best way is just to start where you are.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: You have your references.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: You have, you know, your style can be by just being self-taught as well.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's served me well, for sure.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:46
  So I was wondering if there are any questions from any of the
• 27:50
  viewers out there.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: This is just a quick 30-minute chat,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: so I don't want to take any more of your time than necessary.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: Any more questions from the viewers to either Jason or myself?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: about watercolor in particular, color, how to shoot things or not.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is there anything you're looking forward to at the moment?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: Any exhibitions or any shows or anything in particular you want to share?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, do you know Philippe Le Bon?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: So he has an amazing... It's Frank Cho.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: He has this incredible exhibit up at the moment.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's all this comic art from Frank Cho.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's so beautiful and it's so...
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's black and white and it's this incredible...
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: The balls on this guy to do so much solid,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: to fill in so much black and then also...
• 28:48
  the precision with the hatching and all that it's it does
• 28:51
  something to my brain
• 28:52
  when i look at that work and it just like it's so calming i
• 28:56
  guess but it's also
• 28:57
  just so um encouraging i get so excited when i see it because
• 29:00
  i'm like i'm gonna
• 29:01
  use more solids i'm gonna i'm gonna go back and be as brave as
• 29:04
  this guy um yeah
• 29:07
  that exhibition in particular i'm really excited about philip
• 29:09
  always gets like such
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: incredible
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he's, yes, yes.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think he's on 28th Street in Chelsea, is that right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, something like that.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: 26th, something like that, yeah.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Numbers escaped me, but yeah.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: He's great.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: He always has good wine at his openings as well.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, he is French.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: I know, I know.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: He refuses to have cheap wine.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: I get it, yes.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: I met him when I was in New York last time.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: I just kind of stumbled in.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: He's a pretty friendly guy, too, as far as the galleries are concerned.
• 29:37
  You can just go up and talk to him and he doesn't,
• 29:39
  you know,
• 29:39
  look at your shoes and walk.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he has a great little dog called Copper.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's this beautiful dog.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the mascot for the gallery.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just walked around the gallery all day greeting people.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's so cute.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a fun visit.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: Paige asks, any other books that are inspiring you?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: I just started.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: I have Ways of Seeing by John Berger, which is a classic book about art.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: I've never read it before.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not proud to say that,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: but I'm teaching at a new school,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: and that was a part of the curriculum.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought, okay, I'm going to go back to school myself.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, John Burge is great.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I just got this last week, which is called The Lexicon of Comicana.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a new edition.
• 30:26
  And it's very silly because this was originally published a
• 30:29
  long time ago.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: This new version is a new and updated version done by Brian Walker,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: who's the son of Mort Walker,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: who does a comic strip called Beetle Bailey.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's basically all of the terminology and theory behind,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: all of the things,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: all of the language,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: the shorthand and iconography of cartooning.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, all of these little things.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know when you see,
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: in Spiro or in,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: a Senpai illustration,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: there's,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: this shorthand...
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's universal.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to speak English or French or anything to get it.
• 31:11
  It's just such a universal language that every,
• 31:13
  the iconography is kind of that.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then also they created words for the little things,
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: like for the little dots and whorls and things.
• 31:24
  They call them like queens and spurls and crottle eyes and like
• 31:31
  a crottled eye,
• 31:32
  like crottle.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what, when someone's dead or they're drunk.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love that.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:39
  So I've been,
• 31:39
  it's so silly,
• 31:40
  but I never really dug into the original version.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm now reading this new version.
• 31:47
  And instead of like just cross hatching and all this sort of
• 31:50
  stuff,
• 31:50
  they like,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: They compare each of the styles to different like LZ Seager.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's the hatching from Popeye.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the hatching from Dick Brown's Hagar the Horrible.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, like all these different styles.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Billy DeBeck.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: I love this stuff.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is the, I mean, this is what I studied.
• 32:10
  When I say studied,
• 32:11
  I mean,
• 32:12
  I literally took books out of the library of cartoon
• 32:14
  collections.
• 32:15
  And I was in Perth going,
• 32:16
  how do I learn to do this crazy cartooning thing?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that was like all I had.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the kind of stuff I was studying at the time.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I just got that last week.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's really cool.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: Is that easy to find?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: It just, yeah, it's on, yeah, it's on everything.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Just came out and it's through, it's internationally published.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: I believe it was Gary Groth from Fantagraphics, I think.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay, cool.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Jason, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate it.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: Follow Jason if you haven't done so already.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: Feel free to check out my book, Thinking of Watercolor.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: If you're in Paris, come to my open studio.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's in Montreuil on October 11th and the 12th from 11 to 7 p.m.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: If I can get my act together.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: I have a lot to do in the next couple hours.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway, wish me the best.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: And thanks so much for tuning in.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll talk to you soon, Jason.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Jessie.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Take care.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: Ciao, ciao.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: See you, everybody.