Latest / Brandon Fogal Evolution / #325 - Alex Hormozi: Can You Be Born Again and Still Fall Away? George Janko Challenges His Faith Journey

Transcript

#325 - Alex Hormozi: Can You Be Born Again and Still Fall Away? George Janko Challenges His Faith Journey · Brandon Fogal Evolution

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Do you believe that someone can lose their salvation if they've trusted in Jesus?
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This has been a complex debate for many, many centuries.
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A lot of people have thought about this. I don't know where you stand on this,
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but Alex Ramosi and George Janko got in kind of a pretty in-depth discussion
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about this, whether someone can be saved and then fall away from the faith.
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And were they genuinely saved in the first place?
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Alex Ramosi was very just authentic and real, just says what he means.
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And he talks about before he, like there was a time early on in his life that
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he was a Christian. He was raised in a Christian household. He came to faith.
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He says he was a born again believer, but then he fell away.
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Do you think that that is possible? And does that, is that scripturally sound?
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All right, we're going to first take a look at this. We're going to take a look
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at a few different clips of this discussion. It was very intriguing.
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99% of people that identify as Christian aren't actually Christian.
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And so when I asked them, they're like, oh, I'm a Christian. I'm like, okay.
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So just to be clear, you believe that God became man, lived a perfect life,
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you know, 2000 years ago, and then died for your sins and, you know,
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left his teachings here to encourage you to live a life like his.
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And so that's, that's what you think. And they're like, well,
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I mean, I mean, I mean, yeah, but I mean, I wouldn't go. And I'm like,
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okay, got it. So you're not a Christian.
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And so I, I have such respect for it, deference for it that like,
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if I were to say I am a Christian, then it means that I believe that Jesus is
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God and all of my actions would stem from that.
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Now I was a board again Christian and I did have this for a period of my life
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and it did change my behavior dramatically.
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Whatever, whatever level of motivation you think I have now, it was 10 times bigger.
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Now, I don't know if I agree that someone can be like, have like,
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okay, it's, it gets very dicey and very confusing because the Bible even itself
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speaks about people having faith.
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And I'm at the very end of this video, we're going to actually look at a scripture
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passage that talks about this.
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It's the parable of the sower and talks about somebody that believes for a while,
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but then things, the worries of this world, things choke out that faith.
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But it does talk about that they believed for a certain amount of time,
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but then they fell away based on the cares of this life.
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So this is where it gets, it's kind of not, I wouldn't say really confusing,
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but like, I think it's the type of faith that we're talking about.
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That if you have a genuine faith, like a real faith, and this is where it's
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weird because it's like, I think about like in faith, because we have to have
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faith in a lot of different things in our life.
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Like I'm driving down the road. I have to have faith that I'm going over a hill
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that on the other side of that hill, like the Department of Transportation did
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a good job and made a road on that side of the hill.
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But I don't know that it's actually over there, but I just trust that it is.
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And I think that we just take a lot of things based on faith that we think that
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that is what is trustworthy. You know, we don't even think about it.
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So this is where it gets confusing because when we're talking about God, like he's unseen.
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We can't see, taste or touch or feel him. We can't prove God's existence.
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And it's like, it's, it's even like beyond like of knowing, like think that
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there's atoms out there or there's gravity or there's certain laws of nature
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or it's, it's something that's like, it's, it's not even in this world.
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So it's like, we don't even, how can we really trust in it? I think that's why
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I come down to it. it has to be almost like imparted to us.
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It's a divine thing. Something outside of this world has to give us what I would
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say as genuine, saving, authentic faith.
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And for someone to believe for a certain amount of time, I think it just,
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a lot of people, they go to church or they, they're around Christians.
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They start thinking about this type of stuff, but, and they might think that,
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yeah, Jesus could have existed. He could have been real.
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Because I think about times in my life, I thought about like,
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there could have been this guy, Jesus, and he could have lived,
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he could have been resurrected, or did he just fake his resurrection,
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and then he went off to India or something?
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Then you have all these things that bounce back in your mind,
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you start questioning everything.
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At what point is it a real, legitimate, life-saving, salvation faith.
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And I think that is, it comes down to like the divine, like God has to give
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us divine saving faith. That's where I kind of lean towards,
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but we're going to go a little bit further because they got into a number of different issues.
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And George is like, I love how, what he does in his videos, because he gets
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down to the heart of it and he gets down to like putting people on,
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I wouldn't say the hot seat, but just like ultimate vulnerability position.
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Like he's, he asks tough questions and, and Alex Ramosi, he was like,
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he didn't hide, didn't hide anything. He didn't hold anything back.
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He said what he like, and I, you've seen different people on Georgia's show
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that people kind of put on a mask. They kind of put on a front.
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They're not really like true to themselves.
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I think we saw like a real side of who Alex Ramosi is in this video.
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Jesus also says that I am the vine and you are the fruit apart from me. We can't do anything.
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So when you say, I believe, when you were walking with Jesus,
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did you ever ask him, hey, like, I'm seeing this on the table.
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My eyes are looking at it. You say, whoever has eyes and wants to see, and I want to see.
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Did you find yourself in a position where you just didn't want to see it?
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No, I think I desperately wanted to see. Desperately wanted to see. Yeah.
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I mean, it was a very arduous search for many years.
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And I've had that myself as well. Because if it, and this goes for anybody that's even a believer.
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Like if you're a believer and you trust in God or you think he's there.
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And then you start talking to him. You start really putting him to the test.
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Like God, really show yourself.
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For me, at least in my perspective, in my life, I have not had, besides my,
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major conversion moment, I've never really had a sense where God's like,
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I'm here, I'm here, I'm going to give you goosebumps, I'm going to make you feel a certain way.
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Like he's there's like a sense and like he is extremely hidden extremely hidden
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at least for me like because i want god i got.
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I i i've went through many crisis moments in my life and my faith and i'm like
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calling out to god and i don't hear an answer and that's why i see it as the
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difference like everything in naturally within me would say to go the opposite
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way to give up on jesus stop trusting in him do what you want just live how
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you want and that's how like,
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i think that that is the difference between a faith that we conjure up as humans
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and we think we have we believe that there was this guy jesus or there is this
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there has to be a god out there somewhere and this couldn't be in just all random,
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As opposed to, I'm going to stake my life, everything that I am entrusting in this.
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Like I'm throwing everything else like out.
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I don't care about anything else. I'm giving my life over to this.
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I'm surrendering completely.
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And I think that to give your life completely and surrender completely has to
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be like initiated by God.
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And everything else is just, can be just a man-made, we create it out of our own mind.
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And we think we believe something. And it's just like, it's not really challenging
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us or changing anything else. It's just like, I believe if I go,
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if I drive over this side of the road, like I just think it's there,
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you know, it's not really like testing me.
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Like, and I think that that is the difference because I've had times in my life,
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like early on when I became a Christian that like.
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I felt seriously the, the, like kind of like the parable of the,
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the sower, the man that goes out to sow and, and then birds come up and snatch it.
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Like, I felt like, like doubts creeping in and I, I constantly and like questioning
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my faith and making me really like, do I really believe this?
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Like when I have something that I want to do that I don't think that the Bible
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says I can do at that moment, there's a real like choice.
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Do I really believe Jesus? And do I really believe the Bible?
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Or do I just want to go do this thing? And I, and I.
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And I think that that's its own thing. But like early on when I was a Christian,
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at least I had where I had to almost silence the voice of like of doubt.
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I had to like make a decision after I really do.
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I did believe I trusted in trust in God.
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I really believed I had to like say, I cannot doubt anymore.
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I cannot allow myself to doubt.
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And whenever that voice creeps up, I got to say silence completely shut up. I don't care.
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And there was a moment in my life that I did that. I don't know if you've had
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that for you personally.
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But I had that moment. I said, I don't care. I'm not even going to listen to that.
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I'm not even going to entertain the thought of it not being real,
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of God not being real, of the Bible not being real. And I just said, I am fully in it.
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But, and I don't know if Alex went through that same type of thing in his life
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and he was really questioning because it does become like, you,
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you think there's things in your life that you want to accomplish.
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You want to go towards and go after.
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And you think that almost Jesus can be holding you back.
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Like, and it, and it kind of is, it's like, if you're a Christian,
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you can't do everything you want.
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You can't say everything you want to want to say you, you like, you are kind of like,
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like i don't know you have to like put like a a mouthpiece on or you are or
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how you don't you can't let everything fly out because you you're you care about
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your witness you don't want you don't want to push people away and like and
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i don't know if he was struggling with that,
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but he gets into this video about talking about like he even went to a therapist
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and and talked about this and the therapist was like you just got to make a
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decision you just got to choose one way or the other do you believe it or do you not
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and it's like if you give that to someone, like a regular person,
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like, oh, I'm just going to believe it or not.
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I'm just going to believe it or not. Well, everything on the good side of like
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my life being enjoyable and happy would seem like, don't believe that stuff.
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Do what you want, live how you want.
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And that's why the gospel itself, the good news of Jesus Christ,
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it goes against everything human nature.
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It goes against everything that we want to believe because we want to live however the hell we want.
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We don't want to deny ourselves i want to move a little bit further on because
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this is where i i think that gets to the crux of the issue for him for alex
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because he brings up the issue of free will and he doesn't really agree with it,
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and i i kind of almost agree with him in a certain way about free will but i'll
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let you hear what he says that again i would say that i like,
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all right well screw it i i actually have a hard time with free will,
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because free will presupposes that we're at 100% control of all of our actions.
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And you can prove that that's not true because you can change people's behavior
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by moving and manipulating the variables in their environment.
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And so I think there's oftentimes the illusion of choice more than there is
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the actuality of choice.
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And so even if we agree that a 1% change can occur in someone's behavior through
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influence, then it means that it's just a gradient, which means that there's
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a chance that we have 100% control.
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And if you have 100% control of someone's behavior, than they do not have free will.
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And so when you get into this argument of like, okay, well, okay,
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if I do believe we can influence, if you can influence, you can control.
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If you can control, then the whole concept around this choice for eternal salvation,
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might not be as individual as we have framed it to be. May I dissect that backwards?
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And that, I think that gets to really like the heart of the issue.
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When you think about it, like do we have choice to be saved or not?
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Do we have choice to be with God for eternity or not?
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I would say yes and no.
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I don't think we have the power within us. It's like something God commands us to be perfect.
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Do we have the ability to be perfect?
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And God commands us, love the Lord your God with all your heart,
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soul, mind, and strength. Do we have that ability?
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And so it's like the command is to do this, but I don't think it necessarily
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means we have the ability within us to do it.
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And the command is to believe in Jesus Christ. Do we have the ability to believe
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in Jesus Christ in a way that saves us?
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And I think it starts with not just like believing. I don't think the believing
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necessarily just like triggers us being saved and in a right standing with God.
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It kind of doesn't. It kind of doesn't. I think the thing that starts it all
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is God has to kind of rewire our nature. He has to make us alive.
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And that is, that goes against the free will. Like, did God give the same amount
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of grace to Pontius Pilate as he gave to Saul of Tarsus, who became the apostle Paul?
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And I don't think, I think we all kind of agree with it. Like everybody,
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everywhere in this world, that some people have a, like, I hate to say better
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chance because it's like, it doesn't matter.
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You could be going, like taken to church every Sunday, sitting in a pew,
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but then all you are is further condemning yourself to hell forever.
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Because I think everybody within us, we're going to reject Jesus.
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We're going to reject the gospel, no matter how much it's like,
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no matter how articulate someone is, how,
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good they present it, how many good feelings they get, like they start doing
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a guitar and just start soothing you in, believe in Jesus,
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believe in.
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I don't think that it's going to cross the threshold of someone surrendering
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to Jesus. That is not what's going to do it. I think what has to happen,
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God has to first be that first cause.
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Because I, for me personally, and you might have the same like kind of remembrance
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in your life if you are a Christian, that like the moment you became a Christian,
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I remember like the first time I like called out to God,
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started talking to him like legitimately, like actually believing he is there.
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And it's not like that before that, like I just probably parroted prayers and
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said like things about Jesus, about God, but I really didn't believe he's there.
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I just, I'm saying things, but I'm aware of everybody else being listening to
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my prayer or something like that.
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So I didn't have a genuine faith. I was just saying things, but I,
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there was a moment when I, when God, and I think this is where like God turned
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on the lights and then I started talking to him and I really believed he was there.
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And then like faith, Then repentance came and it was like a domino effect.
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So I think these things about like, do we have free will or not? I think yes and no.
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We all have the like free will. Like we are choosing what we want,
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but we don't have the ability to, to want.
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What we want we like i can't,
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i i like when i grew when i was young i wanted to like salad and i didn't like
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salad but i really wanted to like it i wanted to like it and i think that is
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the thing with with god and with jesus it's like,
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but this is this goes even further because then there's like the whole like
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the whole world it lays in the sway and the power of the evil one there's
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not just that we don't have the ability within us but we have an active enemy
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that is doing everything in his power to keep us from this.
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So there's, it goes beyond just like, I want to like salad. I really want to,
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because I did, but I couldn't change my desires to liking salad.
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I think God is the one who has to kind of rewire our wants, rewire our desires,
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rewire, like even like open our eyes.
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It's like, there's a sense that it has to be divinely given.
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God has to open our eyes like when
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when peter said that jesus you are the christ the son of the living god,
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jesus didn't say to peter like you are so smart peter i cannot believe you came
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up with that you figured it out peter you did such a great job,
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no jesus said uh you bless you're blessed peter because my father has revealed
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this to you my my father is one who who turned on the lights and i think that's
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what it gets down to no matter like this is where it comes into the whole calvinist verse arminian debate.
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Does God just give everyone just a chance? And it's like, who's going to reach
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out and who's going to believe?
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And I think that goes to our nature.
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We want it to be fair. We want everybody to have a chance, a real shot at this,
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a real shot to get to heaven.
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Everybody does. And if you don't, then you deserve to go to hell because you didn't believe in it.
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And rather, I think it's like, even the people that believe,
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they deserve just as much as the people that are going to go to hell.
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And that's the difference. It's
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like the people that believe and trust in Jesus, they're getting a gift.
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They're getting saved from something. They're doing something.
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They're getting grace that other people didn't.
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And that's why it's like a different language to people that are outside of the faith.
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And I think that like, but it's like, we're still called to tell people about
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Jesus, but God is the one who has to make it happen.
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And I think that's the difference. But let me know what you think about that.
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All right. On this last one, we're going to take a look at this, this last clip.
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I would actually like to push back on you. And this is my first pushback on you.
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I don't believe that you believed in Jesus with all your heart.
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I think that you are wrong.
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I like to build a relationship with you off of this and sit with you.
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And if you would let me pray with you on this.
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And I know that's very uncomfortable because you kind of like just let it go.
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But I love you, dude. And I know that we just met, but I really care about you.
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And I care about your mission.
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But if I had to listen to your words or Christ's words, I would assume his is.
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I would tell you to listen to Christ. So when Jesus says that the good works
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that I start in you, I will finish.
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And so he says there that if you are a Christian, you can't fade away off of
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being a Christian. And if that is the case, then I am already saved.
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I've been, yeah, then I am already saved. If that is true.
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And that is really, I mean, that is so like refreshing just to hear like,
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Like, because what George brings up is that issue.
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Like, I think when someone does have a genuine, like that, like,
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like soul saving faith, that like that faith, that faith that God gives them,
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and that God shields like, because it's like our faith is like a shield and
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God is shielding us through this world, carrying us through the whole, the whole thing.
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And by that faith, he's the one like, he doesn't matter what he puts us through.
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He's like giving us that faith the whole time that's going to carry us through,
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and i think what and with all due respect to alex i don't think he really ever
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like in the sense the saving faith believed he might have had that,
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human faith that he just believes something like i think anybody can have faith
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like people that are like muslims they believe their faith mormons they believe
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with their faith that like there's certain things or whatever or any any type of religion out there.
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People have faith in whatever, but it's a, a human intellectual thing.
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It's not a divine, the God of the true God, the true and living God imparting
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this, giving this gift of faith.
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And I think that that is the difference because Alex, he probably believed,
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but him to say he was born again, I don't know his soul. I don't know his heart.
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I don't know what's going on.
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But if you are actively denying Jesus right now, it doesn't seem like you really
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believed. It kind of like just proves that you really never had genuine faith.
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Like, like I'm talking about is like, it's, it's just this difference between
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a natural faith and a supernatural faith. I think that's what it comes down
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to this, the authentic faith that God gives that he has not had that yet,
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but it's not to say his story's up.
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And I do believe like, if, and it's like people that are put in certain circumstances,
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like God is really putting, he's throwing him into you, he throwing him into
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like situations around Christians, going on George's show, talking about these things.
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I just see that you shouldn't get discouraged. I want someone to believe.
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I want them to become a Christian so badly.
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It's like, if that's on your heart and you care so much, it's more than likely
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proof that God has put it on your heart that they will eventually be saved.
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To me, that's how I think of it.
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He's like the one who has predestined the ends, but he's also predestined the
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means to do it. Like he he's predestined or ordained people's prayers and the
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acts that they're going to do to try to push people to faith in Christ.
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And so it's like, that's where I see it. Like, well, I, I don't try to get due
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to discouraged and thinking, oh, Alex is never going to believe.
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I don't think he actually was in because that born again thing, that is something.
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That if you are born again, that is a regenerative act that God, the Holy Spirit does.
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And that Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born again before you can see the kingdom of heaven.
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And it's like a supernatural thing that is not, it's like, we do not have any hand in it whatsoever.
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It's completely God doing it.
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Like him, like unilaterally, monergistically, him, like he's doing the work.
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We do nothing about it. But once he makes us alive, like I had that moment that
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I believe that happened. Like I, the guy, like looking back at the time,
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I did not know that was what was going on.
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But I would say every Christian has had that happen to them.
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They might not have noticed it at the moment it happened, but there is this
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instantaneous act that happens in their life that makes you alive.
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You could be going to church every day of your life, but then there's a moment,
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an experiential moment that God does.
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He turns on the lights and then you reach out to him in faith and repentance
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and all that kind of stuff follows.
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And I just, I don't think that Alex has had that moment if he's denying it right now.
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But it's not to say that his story's over or up or anything like that.
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That's where I stand on it.
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But it's so refreshing to hear Alex talk about this because he's not combative.
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He's not like, I'm not going to say anything about it or he's like dissing on
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it he understands that even practically speaking i think this comes to the whole
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like joe joe rogan like he understands like people that are that have christ
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in their life or say they do,
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for the most part not always but like they have they seem to live a more healthy
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like happy life and i and even that like if i'm going to be real i have i have
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so many freaking issues and like as a christian i have so.
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My life got so messed up after I became a Christian because I was start,
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I started going against my, my natural desires and things that I want to do.
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And like, and then you're like, you're reaching out to God. It doesn't even
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feel like he's there. Like most of my life, it doesn't feel like he's there,
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but something keeps me going for some reason.
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And I don't know if you have, have experienced that on your side,
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but it's like something supernaturally is keeping me going and keeping my faith in Jesus.
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Like I, everything in me could say to go the opposite way, everything outside
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of me could say to go the opposite way. But like, I, for some reason can't let
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it go. I can't let Jesus go.
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And I think that the whole point of like, as a Christian, it's God,
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that's not letting you go like he's the one behind the door.
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Like, uh, I think of the, uh, the story of in a pilgrim's progress.
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Christian, he goes into this room and he sees that this, uh,
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this wall that's on fire.
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And on the outside, he sees this, this demon is it's representing Satan throwing
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water on the, on the, this wall of fire. And it just keeps, but it keeps like,
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it's not going out. It actually keeps getting a bigger blaze of fire.
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But then the interpreter or something shows a Christian behind the wall,
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that there's this man who's putting this oil in and it's causing the fire to
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get bigger and bigger. And I think that that is Jesus behind all of our faith, all of our faith.
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He is, he's supplying the oil of the Holy spirit that keeps, that keeps it burning.
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No matter how much Satan wants to douse us with water, Jesus is supplying the
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Holy spirit of the oil that's making our faith grow.
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And he's protecting us and shielding us through this world by that,
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by our faith. That's kind of how I see it.
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And that's from like the, even the book of first Peter, that we are shielded by faith.
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I believe that's in the first chapter of first Peter. I did want to finish off,
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this with reading the parable, the parable of the sower. This is in Matthew chapter 13.
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Since we're at the end of the video, I'm just going to throw out some text.
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I love, I could read the, I love, love the Bible and I love to sneak it in there
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as much as I can. Not sneak it in there for you.
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Actually, I'm sneaking it in there for myself.
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Matthew chapter 13, verse one. We're going to read through to verse 30. This is Jesus.
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It's always about, it's all about Jesus. Okay, here we go. Matthew 13, verse one.
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That same day, Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea and a great
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crowd and great crowds gathered about him so that he got into a boat and sat down.
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And the whole crowd stood on the beach and he told them many things in parables.
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A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path and
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birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground where they did
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not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up since they had no depth of soil.
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But when the sun rose, they were scorched, and since they had no root, they withered away.
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Other seeds fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
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Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold,
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some sixty, some thirty.
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He who has ears, let him hear.
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Then the disciples came and said to him, Why do you speak to them in parables?
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And he answered them, To you has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom
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of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
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For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance.
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But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
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This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see,
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and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
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Indeed, in their case, the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says,
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You will indeed hear, but will never understand, and you will indeed see,
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but will never perceive.
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For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely
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hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes,
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and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.
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But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
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For truly I say to you, many prophets and righteous people have longed to see
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what you see and did not see it and to hear what you hear and did not hear it.
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Hear then the parable of the sower. He's going to explain it to them.
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When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it,
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the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart.
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This is what was sown along the path.
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As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and
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immediately receives it with joy.
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Yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. And when tribulation
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or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
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As for what was sown among the thorns, this is the one who hears the word,
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but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word and it proves unfruitful.
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As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands
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it. He indeed bears fruit and yields.
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In one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.
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He put it, uh, all right, actually, we're just going to read to 23. All right.
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So those are the four different people, like the one that gets snatched up immediately.
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That's like, I think that like, you can probably just picture this,
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like throughout your life, if you tell anybody about Jesus immediately,
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something's going to, a distraction is going to come in and try to push them away.
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Or someone believes rule like that. I want to hear more about this.
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They might even get baptized. They believe, but it's like, it's not really, they, uh.
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I don't, I mean, it's not like it's like, like landed in their heart and it's
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like changed their life.
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They, there's something there. I would say like, I don't know.
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I, it's not, it's, it's, it's tough to say, but like even talks about,
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they believe for a while, but then they fell away. Like something choked it
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did not allow it to become fruitful.
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And I think that's the difference between people that genuinely have that life-saving faith.
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They're going to like the, the thing that represents like that shows that someone
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has that is the endurance factor, is the perseverance.
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Even Paul the Apostle, in his last letters, he says, I finished the race. I kept the faith.
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He's like, Paul the Apostle struggling with this.
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Even think about John the Baptist. He was having doubts at the end of his life.
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Jesus, are you really the one?
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Before he got beheaded. Paul the Apostle was struggling with that.
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I think that is the thing. Like we are all fighting through this.
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We're working out our salvation with fear and trembling, you know,
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trying to like keep it together, you know, but I think ultimately God is the
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one who's going to keep us through it.
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And that's the, that's the thing that shows whether you really had the faith
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to begin with in the first place. If you really were saved, that's where I see it.
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Let me know what you think about all that, because I know a lot of people disagree,
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and how all the, like that works. And I think even like myself,
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I'm open to anything. I don't think I got it perfectly.
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I'm going to get there and I'm going to say, I knew exactly.
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I think all of us are going to be like, man, I had that completely wrong. I was way off of there.
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But you had that one, right? And I was wrong about this.
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I think we're all going to be in good shape when we get there.
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You know, it's not our understanding about everything about the Bible or about God.
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But ultimately, it's just, it's a childlike faith that saves us. So that's all it is.
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All right we'll leave it at that i hope you have a wonderful rest of your weekend
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and i'll see you on the next one.