Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Justin Baldoni: What Does It Mean To Be Man Enough? Undefining Masculinity + Digging Into Insecurities, Friendships, Love + Leading a Happier Life

Transcript

Justin Baldoni: What Does It Mean To Be Man Enough? Undefining Masculinity + Digging Into Insecurities, Friendships, Love + Leading a Happier Life · QUESTION EVERYTHING

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Speaker 1: The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
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Speaker 2: Hey guys, I'm Whitney Port and this is with Wit.
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Speaker 2: A lot of you may know me from reality TV
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Speaker 2: and the reality is a lot's happened since the Hills.
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Speaker 2: With Wit is dedicated to having real, raw, and occasionally
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Speaker 2: ridiculous conversations with the people who have had a profound
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Speaker 2: impact on me. Because on with Wit, very little is
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Speaker 2: off limits, subscribe so you don't miss any of the
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Speaker 2: amazing conversations to come. New episodes of with Wit are
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Speaker 2: available every Tuesday on all platforms.
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Speaker 3: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:47
Speaker 3: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
0:50
Speaker 3: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
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Speaker 1: This is pretty smart. What does it mean to be
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Speaker 1: man enough? Strong?
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Speaker 2: Brave?
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Speaker 1: Powerful? Smart?
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Speaker 3: Successful? But who said only men could have those traits?
1:12
Speaker 3: Or that qualities like compassion, intuition, and sensitivity aren't manly.
1:18
Speaker 3: Here's a small example of how we view femininity and
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Speaker 3: masculinity in our culture that I've noticed. Women wearing a
1:25
Speaker 3: business suit is deemed okay, chic, powerful strong men wearing
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Speaker 3: a dress is still seen as strange, weak, So what
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Speaker 3: are we saying. To be masculine is strong, something to
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Speaker 3: strive for, and to be feminine is weak, something to
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Speaker 3: shy away from. So today we're digging in with Justin Baldoni.
1:45
Speaker 3: You probably know Justin from his role as Raphael's Solano
1:48
Speaker 3: on the massively popular series Jane the Virgin or as
1:52
Speaker 3: director of the acclaimed film Five Feet Apart.
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Speaker 1: This man is on a mission.
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Speaker 3: He is stripping away unhealthy expectation surrounding masculinity, creating more
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Speaker 3: space for men and everyone else to fully be themselves.
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Speaker 3: When I was reading his book Man Enough, which has
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Speaker 3: evolved into a whole podcast community, I realized that society
2:13
Speaker 3: rarely provides space for men to be whole, and that's
2:16
Speaker 3: definitely hurting men, but it's hurting everyone. Justin is so
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Speaker 3: raw about his own pain, his discoveries, his learnings, and
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Speaker 3: so generous with his teachings. And wait until you hear
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Speaker 3: how he speaks about his wife their relationship, and if
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Speaker 3: you make it to the end of this spoiler alert,
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Speaker 3: he brings me to tears. Before we dive into the interview.
2:44
Speaker 3: I just want to catch everybody up because when I
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Speaker 3: moved to la in twenty thirteen, I did sideline reporting
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Speaker 3: for an entertainment basketball league and there was like one
2:53
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty sweaty men every Sunday at an Equinox
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Speaker 3: in Los Angeles, all actors, writers, all in entertainment, and
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Speaker 3: Justin Baldoni was one of the kindest human beings.
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Speaker 1: And this was.
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Speaker 3: Pre film, pre TV, before a lot of things. And
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Speaker 3: I would see you on red carpets after so many
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Speaker 3: of the accomplishments, and you were the exact same person
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Speaker 3: that I met all those years ago that would go
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Speaker 3: out of your way to say hello and talk to
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Speaker 3: me and make me feel more at ease and more
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Speaker 3: comfortable in that space. So I wanted to know if
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Speaker 3: you were a kind kid. Were you always that way?
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Speaker 4: First of all, that's very kind of you to say
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Speaker 4: so thank you, And how could I not? You were
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Speaker 4: the only woman with like hyper masculine men I like
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Speaker 4: felt for you.
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Speaker 1: Thank you. A lot of people did it.
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Speaker 4: I think there were probably times where I probably identified
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Speaker 4: more with you than I did with all the guys
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Speaker 4: I was playing with.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine that too.
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Speaker 4: I think inherently I was. I was a very sensitive
4:01
Speaker 4: and I was grown into a very sensitive man. I
4:03
Speaker 4: think I was a highly empathetic kid, but I do
4:07
Speaker 4: know that I had a lot of moments where I
4:11
Speaker 4: diverged from that because my want and desire to be
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Speaker 4: a part of something, a part of that basketball league
4:19
Speaker 4: that like hyper masculine thing, even as a child, would
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Speaker 4: mean that I had to reject all of the parts
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Speaker 4: of me that were weak, were quote unquote feminine, were
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Speaker 4: the mom's boy parts of me, if you will. And
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Speaker 4: so there was definitely parts where I remember I remember
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Speaker 4: specifically being a bully. I remember specifically being mean because
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Speaker 4: I was taught as a young boy that that was
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Speaker 4: like if I could overpower someone else, if I could
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Speaker 4: be like the other boys, then that would gain me
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Speaker 4: admittance into this club. And that was a road to
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Speaker 4: nowhere for sure. So I had moments kind of throughout
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Speaker 4: my life where I've dabbled and played put on those masks.
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Speaker 4: I've played those characters, and it never ended well for me.
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Speaker 3: Did you feel comfortable with your male peers or because
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Speaker 3: you just said like you were trying.
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Speaker 4: To be like that. No, No, I don't think very
5:13
Speaker 4: many men feel comfortable with their with male peers. I
5:17
Speaker 4: mean I think male friends. Yeah, But look even when
5:22
Speaker 4: you look at society, right, we know that men have
5:28
Speaker 4: what's called side to side friendships and women have face
5:31
Speaker 4: to face friendships. Right, So I would argue that most men,
5:37
Speaker 4: if they really check in, don't feel super comfortable with
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Speaker 4: other men. Now, they might, they might lie in whatever
5:45
Speaker 4: call that beta and all the various things that men
5:47
Speaker 4: around the country and the world used to defend themselves
5:50
Speaker 4: with their fragile male egos. But if we were truly
5:54
Speaker 4: comfortable with each other, we would have face to face friendships.
5:57
Speaker 4: We would look at each other in the eye. We
5:59
Speaker 4: wouldn't need to go to a are, sit side by
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Speaker 4: side with somebody else, watch something that distracts us from
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Speaker 4: that connection, drink something that numbs us. Right, that numbs
6:11
Speaker 4: are inhibitions. In order to have friendships. We wouldn't need
6:15
Speaker 4: to just go play sports, just go to the gym,
6:19
Speaker 4: go do something active. We could literally sit and have
6:21
Speaker 4: a coffee or a tea. But that's not how male
6:25
Speaker 4: socialization works. So I for sure wasn't am I Now
6:30
Speaker 4: I have groups of friends that I am very comfortable with,
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Speaker 4: But even in those groups of friends, there are moments
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Speaker 4: of discomfort and moments of uncomfortability. If you will where
6:42
Speaker 4: we see I think where we see like, oh there's
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Speaker 4: a little there's a little something here, let's push through it.
6:50
Speaker 4: That's interesting, I haven't seen you in a while, or
6:52
Speaker 4: there's like a little moment of awkwardness, and we never
6:54
Speaker 4: just we never acknowledge those things. And I'm just on
6:58
Speaker 4: this mission to like rip that veil off and just
7:01
Speaker 4: start to acknowledge it all. Because once we acknowledge it all,
7:04
Speaker 4: we can we can heal, you know, we can we
7:06
Speaker 4: can actually forge those deep, meaningful relationships and be truly
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Speaker 4: comfortable with each other, which.
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Speaker 1: Are so fulfilling.
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Speaker 3: Did you seek that sort of comfort and understanding in
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Speaker 3: romantic partners? Is that how you found sort of a
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Speaker 3: safe place?
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Speaker 4: No? I was super codependent for most of my life.
7:25
Speaker 4: I attracted very toxic women into my life. Was in
7:31
Speaker 4: emotionally abusive relationships, and that all stems from the mother
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Speaker 4: wound and all of the various things that you know,
7:40
Speaker 4: we could go into or we could not. But I
7:42
Speaker 4: for sure, always I was a romantic. I was somebody
7:46
Speaker 4: who loved love, but I was also trying to heal
7:50
Speaker 4: something with the first few women that I dated long term,
7:54
Speaker 4: and that never ends well either.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I did the same. Maybe I'm still doing.
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Speaker 4: It most of us do. I mean, that's just what happens.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's.
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Speaker 4: Generally what we do. That's the pattern that we repeat
8:07
Speaker 4: and repeat until we find until hopefully we find the
8:10
Speaker 4: one where we can break the patterns, and that is
8:13
Speaker 4: that is where I am now. I was lucky enough
8:15
Speaker 4: to break that pattern early on in the dating of
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Speaker 4: my wife, and we're ten years together now.
8:21
Speaker 3: I have so many questions about that because I'm a
8:23
Speaker 3: really big Emily fan. But we're going to talk about
8:26
Speaker 3: that later. So who's not also true? So when I
8:29
Speaker 3: was reading your book, I could tell that identity was
8:31
Speaker 3: really important to you. You are a father, you are
8:35
Speaker 3: a husband, you're a son. And at what point did
8:39
Speaker 3: you know you wanted to have the title of actor
8:42
Speaker 3: and or filmmaker?
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Speaker 4: Never? I had no what. I had zero self I
8:48
Speaker 4: had zero self confidence. So growing up whoa So when
8:53
Speaker 4: I was ten, we moved to Oregon from Los Angeles.
8:56
Speaker 4: My dad was in the entertainment business. He kind of
9:00
Speaker 4: ed product placement, if you will, this thing that is
9:03
Speaker 4: now running all of our lives right branded entertainment. But
9:06
Speaker 4: then it was just kind of putting products in movies,
9:08
Speaker 4: and I grew up going to sets. I remember going
9:11
Speaker 4: and beating sliced alone on the set of Rocky five,
9:14
Speaker 4: and I was like a little kid. He's like, hey,
9:16
Speaker 4: here's to beat youa terrible don't an accent. Don't hold
9:19
Speaker 4: that against me. And then we moved to Oregon when
9:22
Speaker 4: I was ten, and I really just I had no
9:26
Speaker 4: sense of self, I had no identity. I was crowdsourcing
9:31
Speaker 4: my personality. I was bullied and picked on and just
9:35
Speaker 4: an outcast. And I was a kid who was so creative,
9:42
Speaker 4: but I didn't I think I didn't ever let myself
9:45
Speaker 4: dream for fear of those dreams not coming true because
9:50
Speaker 4: I was so sensitive, and I think I knew that
9:53
Speaker 4: about myself inherently, like I'm so far from LA, like
9:55
Speaker 4: that'll never happen to me. I don't think I really
9:58
Speaker 4: ever believed it could happen, And so when it did happen,
10:01
Speaker 4: I was just kind of like, Ah, are we sure
10:04
Speaker 4: this is a mistake, This is a glitch in the matrix? Right?
10:07
Speaker 3: Does it feel like you kind of daydreamed that it
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Speaker 3: would or different?
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Speaker 4: I don't remember daydreaming about this. I don't, Yeah, I
10:19
Speaker 4: just it was just all I can say is it
10:21
Speaker 4: was so far away from me at the time. Yeah,
10:24
Speaker 4: I knew that. I knew that I was here to
10:28
Speaker 4: be of service, Like I knew that's what I wanted.
10:31
Speaker 4: I wanted to serve in some way. I knew I
10:33
Speaker 4: loved entertainment, but I didn't know what my skill sets were.
10:38
Speaker 4: I didn't really have a sense of self. I was
10:39
Speaker 4: an athlete. I thought, you know, there was a time
10:41
Speaker 4: when I was really young that it was like, oh,
10:43
Speaker 4: You're going to be a World Cup player one day,
10:46
Speaker 4: and I was playing Olympic development soccer and then that
10:49
Speaker 4: wasn't it. I just didn't know. It was really a
10:51
Speaker 4: time of exploration and finding myself, which I found I
10:55
Speaker 4: think in my twenties.
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Speaker 1: How did you find it?
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Speaker 3: You like, did you meet somebody who helped you tap
11:01
Speaker 3: into something or what was the turn of events for
11:04
Speaker 3: you that led.
11:05
Speaker 4: Me to the entertainment business? Yeah, heartbreak, heartbreak. I was
11:11
Speaker 4: going to Long Beach State. It was the only school
11:14
Speaker 4: that still offered me some partial scholarship for track and field.
11:18
Speaker 4: It was a D one school, and that was a
11:19
Speaker 4: goal I daydreamed about that, like going and being an
11:22
Speaker 4: athlete but senior year of high school, I tore my
11:25
Speaker 4: hamstring and I lost everything. So the thing that I
11:28
Speaker 4: had daydreamed about, which I thought was going to be
11:29
Speaker 4: my crutch was athletics, was sports. And then when that
11:34
Speaker 4: went away, I had a depression and kind of this
11:37
Speaker 4: eighteen year old identity crisis, and I didn't know what
11:40
Speaker 4: I was supposed to be. But I had this feeling
11:43
Speaker 4: when I tapped into myself that I knew I was
11:45
Speaker 4: supposed to be in southern California, which is where I
11:48
Speaker 4: was born. So I took a partial scholarship to Long
11:51
Speaker 4: Beach State and the first day in California, I met
11:57
Speaker 4: a girl, and that girl and I were together for
12:00
Speaker 4: a year and a half. That was a very toxic relationship.
12:03
Speaker 4: I write a little bit about it in the book.
12:05
Speaker 4: What I'm now realizing and willing to say it was
12:08
Speaker 4: sexual assault, which is very rare. We don't hear men
12:11
Speaker 4: talk about that very often because how you know, this
12:15
Speaker 4: patriarchal lens has big or stronger, tougher men. It's like,
12:18
Speaker 4: how could a woman do that? But it happens more
12:21
Speaker 4: often then we realize. And that's part of my healing
12:23
Speaker 4: journey is naming that, and then eventually this woman cheated
12:26
Speaker 4: on me. I left Long Beach, dropped out, moved to
12:31
Speaker 4: Santa Monica College, and in that I was I didn't
12:34
Speaker 4: have anywhere to live or stay. And my dad had
12:35
Speaker 4: this tiny little office in an apartment building with no furniture,
12:40
Speaker 4: just a couch, and I moved into this tiny, little
12:44
Speaker 4: three hundred square foot office and that's where I lived.
12:47
Speaker 4: I was sleeping on this couch and in that apartment
12:50
Speaker 4: building was a manager who spotted me and asked me
12:53
Speaker 4: if I wanted to be an actor. Later learned that
12:57
Speaker 4: he didn't. He was actually trying to manipulate me and
12:59
Speaker 4: pick me up, if you understand. So again, this very again,
13:05
Speaker 4: this very broken trust, trusting kid. I was just kind
13:08
Speaker 4: of going from place to place and at the same
13:10
Speaker 4: time believing that there was something more for me the
13:13
Speaker 4: whole time, and allowing myself. I always say, I'm kind
13:15
Speaker 4: of like a feather in the wind, going wherever God
13:17
Speaker 4: takes me, and staying optimistic and positive and knowing that
13:19
Speaker 4: there is something for me, yet I don't know what
13:22
Speaker 4: it is. And so I said sure, I'd never really
13:25
Speaker 4: acted before, and then boom, three months later, I got
13:27
Speaker 4: my first job, So it kind of started that way unexpectedly,
13:31
Speaker 4: and even then I was I remember being so broken
13:34
Speaker 4: so again having no real sense of self that when
13:36
Speaker 4: this manager started sending me roles, this is and I
13:39
Speaker 4: think I read about this in the book. When this
13:41
Speaker 4: manager started sending me roles, these auditions that I would
13:44
Speaker 4: get were for these like super sexy, like twenty twenty
13:48
Speaker 4: one year old guys. Yeah, and the descriptions about them
13:53
Speaker 4: were like so intimidating to me that I remember emailing
13:57
Speaker 4: him back and saying are we did you mean to
14:00
Speaker 4: send this to me? Like do they know that? And
14:03
Speaker 4: like a genuine I'll never forget this is a genuine
14:06
Speaker 4: response to one of the first emails he sent me
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Speaker 4: with an audition, saying, hey, I just want to make
14:11
Speaker 4: sure you send this to the right client because it
14:14
Speaker 4: was super hot, sexy, like handsome, and I just that
14:18
Speaker 4: just wasn't me at least that's not how I see
14:19
Speaker 4: myself or saw myself. And I remember he was like, yes, stupid,
14:25
Speaker 4: that was kind of his response was, yes, stupid.
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Speaker 3: Isn't it so interesting that we see ourselves as we
14:31
Speaker 3: did as a kid, Like we never lose that no
14:34
Speaker 3: matter who we grow into yeah.
14:36
Speaker 4: Never.
14:37
Speaker 3: It's wild because when I posted your book when it
14:41
Speaker 3: came out, when I tell I'm not exaggerating, I've never
14:45
Speaker 3: received more messages from people being like, oh, he's it
14:50
Speaker 3: for me. He's like, this is my celebrity crush, this
14:53
Speaker 3: is the heart thrup. And so I think it's so
14:56
Speaker 3: interesting to hear that you don't necessarily feel that on
15:00
Speaker 3: the inside.
15:01
Speaker 4: Oh god, no, oh no, no no. And it's it's hard,
15:07
Speaker 4: and it's also a blessing. I don't think in this
15:09
Speaker 4: business one can survive drinking the kool aid. True, and
15:14
Speaker 4: yet at the same time, I do believe that there's
15:17
Speaker 4: a healthy balance that I'm striving for.
15:19
Speaker 1: But I have a weird question for you.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, please go ahead, please.
15:24
Speaker 3: And you're so humble that this might be strange to answer,
15:28
Speaker 3: But if we can just like put humility aside for
15:31
Speaker 3: a second, how much or where do you think your
15:36
Speaker 3: appearance played into how you feel about your masculinity?
15:43
Speaker 4: You know, my relationship with my parents, it's been very
15:46
Speaker 4: strange because I have early memories of feeling like I
15:54
Speaker 4: was just simply not enough, not good looking enough, not
15:57
Speaker 4: attractive enough, and I was always the friend of the
16:00
Speaker 4: good looking guy. Like in the romantic comedy. I was
16:03
Speaker 4: the friend was I was the funny friend my whole life,
16:06
Speaker 4: so you know, even when it came to dates. I
16:09
Speaker 4: remember in high school we had this this tradition called
16:12
Speaker 4: Sadie Hawkins, which was when the girls asked the guys
16:15
Speaker 4: to a dance, and it was always there was just
16:18
Speaker 4: so much anxiety for me around that, Wow, because I
16:21
Speaker 4: knew I wasn't going to get asked. And you know,
16:23
Speaker 4: my whole life, the girls that I liked never reciprocated.
16:26
Speaker 4: I was always the best friend, and I had braces
16:30
Speaker 4: in height and you know, sophomore in junior year, and
16:32
Speaker 4: so I didn't My relationship with masculinity and my appearance
16:36
Speaker 4: was always that if I only looked like that guy,
16:39
Speaker 4: then I would have my problem solved, which is so
16:42
Speaker 4: many very skinny.
16:44
Speaker 3: What's that So many women feel that, So that's fascinating.
16:48
Speaker 3: I didn't know that men felt that way.
16:50
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's why. You know. One of the coolest responses
16:53
Speaker 4: from the book has been from women who read chapter two,
16:55
Speaker 4: which is about body image and body dysmorphia and muscle
16:58
Speaker 4: dysmorphia and the pressure is we have on our appearance
17:01
Speaker 4: as men that we never talked about. It's nothing near
17:04
Speaker 4: what we have done to women living in this patriarchal
17:08
Speaker 4: society via the male gaze, and how women have been
17:11
Speaker 4: sexualized and objectified forever and viewed as property. However, there's
17:17
Speaker 4: a whole bunch of shit that we don't talk about
17:19
Speaker 4: when it comes to man in our bodies. Yeah, right
17:22
Speaker 4: from our muscles to our penises. There are deep, deep
17:27
Speaker 4: insecurities that come from this false expectation of what it
17:32
Speaker 4: means to be a man, what it means to be
17:35
Speaker 4: an alpha, if you will, which again is such a broken, dated,
17:39
Speaker 4: disproven concept, but I'll have to say yes, I've had
17:43
Speaker 4: a very interesting struggle with it, because for so long
17:47
Speaker 4: it was if I could only look like that, then
17:49
Speaker 4: she would like me. And then when evidently I did
17:52
Speaker 4: look like that, I was shamed for it. And I
17:55
Speaker 4: remember being so confused. I can't even tell you how
17:57
Speaker 4: many times I heard this in my single life or
17:59
Speaker 4: when I was young. Women would tell me like it,
18:03
Speaker 4: almost like confide in me, and they'd say, oh, this
18:06
Speaker 4: is I'm sorry to tell you this, but I really
18:09
Speaker 4: thought you were going to be an asshole. And I
18:12
Speaker 4: remember this feeling of feeling like I have no place.
18:16
Speaker 4: I have nowhere to fit in because and I can't
18:19
Speaker 4: even tell you how many times I've had a woman
18:21
Speaker 4: or a you know, young woman say to me back
18:23
Speaker 4: then in those days, that they was very confusing to
18:27
Speaker 4: meet me, and oftentimes that they were like questioning if
18:30
Speaker 4: I was really that nice, which breaks my heart. And
18:34
Speaker 4: I've heard that. I mean, even my friend Glennon Doyle
18:38
Speaker 4: had a moment where she even confessed to me, because
18:43
Speaker 4: it just breaks my heart that us men have just
18:45
Speaker 4: we've just ruined it, just ruined it, like the fact
18:51
Speaker 4: that you can't you can't be somewhat attractive and nice,
18:57
Speaker 4: this idea of like how we have to be to
19:00
Speaker 4: treat women or to quote unquote get the girl right,
19:05
Speaker 4: possessive again, treating women like objects like notches on a belt,
19:09
Speaker 4: literally things that we say that the men that we
19:13
Speaker 4: have to pretend to be. And if you really dig
19:15
Speaker 4: into all of that, all we're talking about is we're
19:17
Speaker 4: pretending to be a archetype of a person that triggers
19:23
Speaker 4: the person we're trying to get childhood trauma. Like is
19:27
Speaker 4: that a recipe for relationships and success? No?
19:31
Speaker 3: And it's a vicious cycle because women are taught. There's
19:35
Speaker 3: only like one good man, one good job, and so
19:38
Speaker 3: it's such scarcity and we're constantly like you know, after it.
19:42
Speaker 4: And you're then competing with each other to get that right,
19:46
Speaker 4: and men are doing the same thing. That's the as
19:48
Speaker 4: my dear friend Liz Plank says, that's the pyramid scheme
19:51
Speaker 4: of the patriarchy. Mm is it puts everybody. It's hunger games,
19:57
Speaker 4: it's squid games. We're all against each other waymen against women,
20:01
Speaker 4: men against men. We're all just super fucked up, broken
20:05
Speaker 4: people dealing with trauma, trying to figure out how to
20:09
Speaker 4: just make it through the day, suppressing our anxiety and depression,
20:13
Speaker 4: pretending like it doesn't exist, and yet trying to be
20:17
Speaker 4: people were not in order to fall in love, which
20:19
Speaker 4: doesn't make any sense yet. So it's been it was
20:22
Speaker 4: a very interesting journey. And then again once I started
20:26
Speaker 4: hearing that, I remember, I really remember, and this was
20:30
Speaker 4: so hard for young Justin and I have so much
20:33
Speaker 4: compassion for my younger self just being so confused because
20:37
Speaker 4: when that would happen. I remember women losing interest in
20:41
Speaker 4: me despite their physical attraction.
20:44
Speaker 1: Wow.
20:44
Speaker 4: And I experienced this early on with my wife because
20:47
Speaker 4: here I was from far away, someone that they were
20:52
Speaker 4: drawn to physically, sexually, and then I was the nice guy.
20:57
Speaker 4: And there's a cognitive dissonance there, there's a there's this
21:01
Speaker 4: thing that happens where the brain goes like I don't
21:03
Speaker 4: know where to place you, and and that's why for
21:06
Speaker 4: so long I felt like I didn't know where I
21:08
Speaker 4: was or who I was. Now a lot of men
21:10
Speaker 4: would listen to that and be like, well, that just
21:12
Speaker 4: proves our point about the alpha. You can't be too nice, right,
21:16
Speaker 4: you can't be too available. That just that's you know,
21:19
Speaker 4: you got to like you got to reel them in.
21:20
Speaker 4: What are we talking like? Women are a fish? Are we?
21:23
Speaker 4: Are we fishing in the ocean? Now? Is that what
21:25
Speaker 4: we are? But that again proves my point, which is
21:30
Speaker 4: what happens. So you trigger somebody's trauma, you act like
21:33
Speaker 4: an asshole, You get them to have more interest in you.
21:37
Speaker 4: You create a sense of scarcity and fear, and that's
21:40
Speaker 4: how you're going to build love.
21:42
Speaker 1: No, No, it blows up.
21:44
Speaker 4: I was. I was willing to do the opposite so
21:47
Speaker 4: with my wife when that happened, my wife, her father
21:50
Speaker 4: was an alcoholic. He left the family, broke her heart
21:55
Speaker 4: at a very young age, shattered her childhood, ended up
21:58
Speaker 4: dying when she was very young, when she was eighteen,
22:01
Speaker 4: So she has a deep father wound there and she
22:05
Speaker 4: didn't know where to place me in her head. And
22:08
Speaker 4: that wasn't her fault. So it was my job, because
22:11
Speaker 4: I loved her and I knew she was my person
22:15
Speaker 4: to know that her confusion was not about me, and I,
22:21
Speaker 4: for the first time in my life, was willing to
22:25
Speaker 4: lose her, to lose somebody, to abandon my codependence, to
22:29
Speaker 4: heal that part of myself in order to stay true
22:32
Speaker 4: to who I was. And what ended up happening was
22:35
Speaker 4: the miracle, which is we both healed our traumas in
22:39
Speaker 4: this relationship. She confronted hers pushed past it. I confronted mine,
22:44
Speaker 4: pushed past it. And that's why we have such a beautiful, healthy, communicative,
22:49
Speaker 4: loving relationship. It wasn't just one sided. We stayed in it.
22:53
Speaker 4: We were both in it together, and we pushed through
22:56
Speaker 4: and we found each other and we saw each other.
23:00
Speaker 3: I am obsessed with what it means to be a woman,
23:03
Speaker 3: which is why I'm so fascinated by your obsession with
23:05
Speaker 3: what it means to be a man. And I often
23:09
Speaker 3: wonder where that desire comes from, Like nobody.
23:11
Speaker 1: In my family has it. I can't.
23:14
Speaker 3: Everything I read is about femininity and feminism.
23:18
Speaker 1: And I kept thinking as I was reading your book.
23:21
Speaker 3: You had a highly successful career as a filmmaker and
23:26
Speaker 3: as an actor. You could have just kept going down
23:30
Speaker 3: this path, and instead you really stepped out and you
23:35
Speaker 3: wrote this.
23:35
Speaker 1: You did the Ted talk and then you wrote this book, and.
23:40
Speaker 3: I think you probably knew that it was going to
23:44
Speaker 3: cause a ripple in both an incredible way and also
23:48
Speaker 3: in a way where you were probably going to get
23:50
Speaker 3: some naysayers. Why did it feel worth it to you
23:54
Speaker 3: to write this?
23:57
Speaker 4: I've questioned that decision many times. Can imagine why didn't
24:02
Speaker 4: I just stay on this?
24:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a hard job on Jane the Virgin.
24:09
Speaker 4: You know, I don't have the exact answer for you,
24:13
Speaker 4: except that it's very similar to the feeling that I
24:15
Speaker 4: had about my wife when I saw her. I feel
24:19
Speaker 4: like I grew up in the Bay faith. I believe
24:22
Speaker 4: deeply in these teachings, and part of the teachings Bahalah
24:27
Speaker 4: says man must know his own self and what leads
24:31
Speaker 4: to loftiness or abasement and He also talks about this
24:34
Speaker 4: idea that every human being on the planet is endowed
24:38
Speaker 4: with unique capacity to be of service to the world. Now,
24:43
Speaker 4: I think we get that confused very often living in
24:46
Speaker 4: this macro me me, me III society where it's like
24:51
Speaker 4: everybody feels like they have to change the world, Like
24:53
Speaker 4: how many followers can I get? How many listeners can
24:55
Speaker 4: I get? How many downloads? How many what's how big
24:58
Speaker 4: is my audience? How can I reach as many people
25:00
Speaker 4: as possible I need to? I'm here, I believe I'm
25:03
Speaker 4: supposed to change the world. Great, awesome. Good for you.
25:06
Speaker 4: That's your trauma talking. You just want to be loved.
25:09
Speaker 4: Where change starts is in the mirror. Where chain starts
25:13
Speaker 4: is with the person that lives in the house with you,
25:16
Speaker 4: or with your friend, or with your family. Chain starts
25:20
Speaker 4: in those relationships that are so deeply uncomfortable, that are
25:24
Speaker 4: on the verge, you're hanging on by a thread, or
25:26
Speaker 4: that have been broken. It starts in the healing of
25:27
Speaker 4: those relationships. It doesn't start with millions of people. Starts
25:34
Speaker 4: with this with this very tiny audience. It's the micro,
25:38
Speaker 4: it's not the macro. And for me, I have always
25:44
Speaker 4: felt uncomfortable with the large audience it was not expected
25:48
Speaker 4: for me. The more folks who paid attention to me,
25:52
Speaker 4: the more I was hyper aware of the importance of
25:57
Speaker 4: doing that personal work, because one of my greatest fears
26:02
Speaker 4: is standing before God and feeling like I didn't live
26:07
Speaker 4: up to my true potential, or that I was a hypocrite.
26:09
Speaker 4: That I because I believe at the at the end
26:12
Speaker 4: of our lives, God knows what's in our hearts. We
26:15
Speaker 4: might be able to fool millions of people, will never
26:19
Speaker 4: fool our creator ever. And there has been many times
26:23
Speaker 4: in my life where I felt disingenuine, where I felt
26:28
Speaker 4: like my actions and my thoughts weren't in line. And
26:33
Speaker 4: one of those areas was around masculinity. Was was who
26:35
Speaker 4: I felt I was, what my identity was, because for
26:39
Speaker 4: so long I functioned based on what the world thought
26:43
Speaker 4: I was supposed to be. If I'm going to be
26:46
Speaker 4: able to live with myself at the end of my life,
26:48
Speaker 4: what matters is not my accomplishments. What matters is not
26:51
Speaker 4: how many movies I make, how many followers I get,
26:54
Speaker 4: how many acting jobs I get. That's not what matters.
26:57
Speaker 4: Nobody's going to read my resume at my funeral, but
27:03
Speaker 4: they will talk about what I did with my time,
27:07
Speaker 4: how I treated my family, and hopefully who I was
27:12
Speaker 4: behind the scenes, my desire to serve and to use
27:16
Speaker 4: whatever privilege and platform I was given to benefit the whole.
27:20
Speaker 4: And that's why I try to tell people privilege is
27:23
Speaker 4: not a bad thing. It's only bad if you don't
27:25
Speaker 4: use it. It's a tool in your arsenal. If you
27:28
Speaker 4: choose to not use it, shame on you, man, What
27:32
Speaker 4: could you do with it? Right White women have the
27:35
Speaker 4: same opportunity right now. Black men have the same opportunity
27:39
Speaker 4: right now. Believe it or not, I learned about I
27:41
Speaker 4: learned about the nuances of privilege from trans folks. There's
27:45
Speaker 4: so much opportunity in the world, and so yeah, so
27:48
Speaker 4: I just I dove into it. I questioned it all
27:50
Speaker 4: the time. It was writing is terrible. I wouldn't recommend
27:55
Speaker 4: it to anybody. I don't think I'm going to do
27:58
Speaker 4: it again for a long time because it's basically it's
28:01
Speaker 4: basically poking at a wound that you haven't healed yet.
28:06
Speaker 4: And through that writing process, I realize just how much
28:09
Speaker 4: farther I have to go to heal, and it's been
28:11
Speaker 4: one of the biggest blessings of my life. I'm healing
28:14
Speaker 4: deeply right now, and if it weren't for the book,
28:16
Speaker 4: it's a catalyst, I don't know if I would be
28:18
Speaker 4: where I am.
28:20
Speaker 3: I think there's something about kids that feel like they
28:24
Speaker 3: have to be performative in some way in their households
28:29
Speaker 3: that they end up wearing this mask even more so.
28:32
Speaker 3: And I loved how in the book you talked about
28:35
Speaker 3: writing this book not just for yourself, but for your
28:39
Speaker 3: children as well, to become the man that they needed.
28:44
Speaker 3: For men who want to start on the path that
28:47
Speaker 3: you're down, where do you think they can start self reflection?
28:53
Speaker 4: You know, I can count how many times in my
28:56
Speaker 4: life that I think I've genuinely been at asked by
29:00
Speaker 4: people that are not like my wife or my family,
29:04
Speaker 4: how am I feeling we all have to do better?
29:08
Speaker 4: We don't ask men that question. Yeah, we don't ask
29:11
Speaker 4: our boys that question. And when you're raised in a
29:15
Speaker 4: culture that doesn't value your feelings, you don't value your feelings,
29:20
Speaker 4: you have no ability to self reflect because by being
29:23
Speaker 4: born into a culture and a society that values you
29:28
Speaker 4: as a product that outputs, and not as an individual
29:33
Speaker 4: human being. Feelings are a distraction. Your worth is measured
29:39
Speaker 4: by what you do, not by who you are, So
29:44
Speaker 4: it's all backwards. There is no human beings. There's only
29:48
Speaker 4: human doings for masculine men, for people who are born
29:52
Speaker 4: who identify as men. That's what you are raised to think.
29:56
Speaker 4: Your value and your worth is must be proven. First
30:00
Speaker 4: of all. Masculinity is a concept, is something that must
30:02
Speaker 4: be proven and therefore can also be taken away. So
30:06
Speaker 4: you're already starting in a deficit. So when feelings and
30:12
Speaker 4: emotions get in the way of your output, you repress them.
30:16
Speaker 4: When you go your whole life and nobody gives a
30:18
Speaker 4: shit about how you're feeling, you don't think to ask
30:21
Speaker 4: how you're feeling either. That's why for so many men,
30:24
Speaker 4: therapy feels like torture, because it's something that's that broken
30:29
Speaker 4: people go and do people that go to therapy. This
30:32
Speaker 4: idea of therapy is for broken people, not people that
30:35
Speaker 4: are winning. This idea of winning.
30:38
Speaker 3: At life, the fuck does that even mean winning killing it?
30:44
Speaker 4: There is no There is no such thing. We're all
30:46
Speaker 4: going to die in the end. You want to win
30:48
Speaker 4: it life. Your goal should be to live in a
30:51
Speaker 4: way that you have as many people at your funeral
30:53
Speaker 4: that know who you are and that can speak to
30:56
Speaker 4: how you've affected and changed their life as possible. And
30:59
Speaker 4: that's got nothing to do with social media. I'm talking
31:00
Speaker 4: about real people want to live in such a way.
31:04
Speaker 4: See how many folks you can collect by the end
31:06
Speaker 4: of your life that can tell a story about something
31:09
Speaker 4: you did for them that nobody else knew about. That's winning.
31:12
Speaker 4: And guess what, when you win, you're not going to
31:14
Speaker 4: be around to see the product. You're not going to
31:16
Speaker 4: be around to collect the reward. That reward will be
31:19
Speaker 4: in memories and in prayers for you once you've gone.
31:21
Speaker 4: So went back to the back to the feeling. We
31:25
Speaker 4: don't get asked how we're feeling. We don't know how
31:27
Speaker 4: to ask ourselves how we're feeling. We're so disconnected from
31:30
Speaker 4: our bodies, right, That's why I talk so much in
31:32
Speaker 4: the book about the hard work of heart work, about
31:36
Speaker 4: that journey from your head to your heart, about connecting
31:39
Speaker 4: those things. We focus so much on our brains, right,
31:42
Speaker 4: especially if we don't have our if we don't have big,
31:44
Speaker 4: strong bodies, then we overcompensate with our brains. We need
31:48
Speaker 4: to outsmart other men. We need to be the smartest
31:50
Speaker 4: person in the room, all of those types of things,
31:52
Speaker 4: but we don't ever talk about feelings. Feelings are a deficit.
31:57
Speaker 4: Feelings are a distraction, but they're not. They are the
32:00
Speaker 4: key to every good thing in life, even the bad feelings,
32:05
Speaker 4: because the bad feelings are clues that can get you
32:09
Speaker 4: on the right path and set you straight, because those
32:13
Speaker 4: bad feelings like actually lead you to the root of
32:17
Speaker 4: all of your actions, of why and who you are.
32:21
Speaker 4: How can I ever show up as a husband or
32:23
Speaker 4: a father if I didn't know myself truly, if I
32:26
Speaker 4: didn't know the dark parts of me, my shadows, self,
32:30
Speaker 4: my trauma, my pain, my anger, my frustrations, how can
32:33
Speaker 4: I truly show up? I would just be passing it
32:35
Speaker 4: on to my children, just like our parents passed it
32:37
Speaker 4: on to us. And every generation must become better. So
32:41
Speaker 4: men need to become friends with their feelings, with who
32:46
Speaker 4: they are, and that can't start until they start to
32:49
Speaker 4: recognize that they have armor on. That armor that we
32:52
Speaker 4: put on to protect ourselves from other men, well, that
32:55
Speaker 4: armor is also protecting us from ourselves. Yeah, us men
33:00
Speaker 4: don't even know we're wearing it because we don't even
33:03
Speaker 4: know that we've been doing this our entire lives, that
33:06
Speaker 4: we've been conditioned to be in a fight or flight
33:10
Speaker 4: mode in every area our of our lives. We've got
33:13
Speaker 4: to take the armor off. We have to reconnect with
33:15
Speaker 4: our feelings. We have to go into our emotions, and
33:18
Speaker 4: we have to be willing to when somebody asks us
33:20
Speaker 4: how we're doing, to say the truth. And we have
33:23
Speaker 4: to condition other people to ask us how we're doing.
33:26
Speaker 4: You don't have to say yes, you don't have to
33:28
Speaker 4: say okay, you don't have to say you're great. Like
33:30
Speaker 4: we need to start having those types of conversations so
33:33
Speaker 4: that as men, we can know that it's safe to
33:35
Speaker 4: open up, that it's not a deficit, that it's not
33:38
Speaker 4: a distraction, that it's not going to make us weak,
33:40
Speaker 4: that these parts of ourselves are not these feminine ideas, right,
33:44
Speaker 4: that are just human qualities, are not weak spots.
33:48
Speaker 3: Do you think as women we can ask more questions
33:52
Speaker 3: as well, like create spaces where men feel comfortable in
33:57
Speaker 3: that way.
33:58
Speaker 4: I wouldn't put it. I wouldn't I wouldn't put all
34:00
Speaker 4: that on women. I mean, I feel like I think
34:02
Speaker 4: that there are instances where that might happen, But I
34:05
Speaker 4: think already women have to take on the role of
34:10
Speaker 4: being the caretaker, the nurture, and the sexual fantasy. And
34:20
Speaker 4: that's a lot to place. I mean, that's a whole
34:21
Speaker 4: other conversation. I mean, that's a lot to place on women.
34:24
Speaker 4: I mean, I know too many marriages that have fallen apart.
34:28
Speaker 4: And it's also in the data because the men were
34:32
Speaker 4: not truly back to your first question, we're not comfortable
34:34
Speaker 4: with other men could not open up, and the wife
34:38
Speaker 4: became the therapist for those heterosexual relationships. And what happens
34:43
Speaker 4: when the wife becomes the therapist and she's also the mother,
34:45
Speaker 4: and she's also doing most of the work at home. No,
34:49
Speaker 4: sex doesn't make you juicy. You want to hear about
34:53
Speaker 4: your husband's and securities and problems all day long and
34:56
Speaker 4: then also do the housework and then take care of
34:58
Speaker 4: the kids and then be expected to Sex doesn't work
35:01
Speaker 4: that way, And men aren't seeing that. They're not seeing
35:04
Speaker 4: the fact that we need male friends and we need
35:06
Speaker 4: to go to therapy, we need to take some of
35:07
Speaker 4: that burden off of women. That's our work, that's not
35:10
Speaker 4: women's work. So I'm hesitant to ever say that women
35:13
Speaker 4: need to do X because they're already doing You're already
35:16
Speaker 4: doing so much. However, what I can say is this,
35:20
Speaker 4: and this really comes from women, right and untame. Glennon
35:23
Speaker 4: Doyle writes about this in the Boys chapter. Women have
35:26
Speaker 4: to be mindful of their own internal misogyny because you
35:29
Speaker 4: are also products of the patriarchy. So you can't be
35:32
Speaker 4: raised in a environment that brainwashes everybody into believing a
35:37
Speaker 4: certain thing and not be affected by it. And that
35:40
Speaker 4: looks like a lot of different things. But the area
35:43
Speaker 4: that I do hope that women can eventually look at
35:47
Speaker 4: on an individual level is the way that they react
35:51
Speaker 4: when they experience another man's vulnerability, especially in a romantic context. Now,
35:56
Speaker 4: there's a difference between experiencing a man's vulnerability and having
36:01
Speaker 4: a man whine and complain all day. Those are two
36:04
Speaker 4: very different things. Because Glennon Doyle, she writes about it,
36:07
Speaker 4: entertained a dear friend of hers, who, as a feminist,
36:12
Speaker 4: wants her man to open up. The first time he did,
36:14
Speaker 4: she was disgusted because her brain, just like I had
36:18
Speaker 4: my moments, went wait, I need you to be strong
36:21
Speaker 4: and protect me. This is weak, And then the female
36:26
Speaker 4: brain in her went no, no, no, this is wrong.
36:28
Speaker 4: This is bad. Run Run, Run, escape, Escape. That happens
36:32
Speaker 4: all the time. I've gotten countless messages from men who said, hey, man,
36:37
Speaker 4: I opened up in front of my girl and it
36:39
Speaker 4: didn't go well. There's work on both sides, right.
36:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have a little rapid fire. Before you leave me,
36:48
Speaker 3: tell me something about yourself that you wish people could
36:52
Speaker 3: see at first glance? My heart, what's a saying that
36:58
Speaker 3: your dad said often that you really love?
37:02
Speaker 4: He said something my whole life that I've called him
37:05
Speaker 4: on and now he's actually working on. He grew up
37:09
Speaker 4: saying if we're rich in love, and that's all that matters.
37:13
Speaker 4: But his actions didn't say that my whole life, And
37:17
Speaker 4: now I write about it in the book, and now
37:20
Speaker 4: since we've talked about it, he's starting to really understand
37:22
Speaker 4: what being rich in love means. And it's very sweet.
37:27
Speaker 1: I loved that episode of your podcast as well.
37:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, what is a book that changed your life?
37:35
Speaker 4: The Knight and Rusty Armor.
37:37
Speaker 1: Never heard of that. I don't usually get stumped on those.
37:41
Speaker 4: The Nine Rusty Armor is a book that was given
37:45
Speaker 4: to be by one of my therapists, and we read
37:48
Speaker 4: it in a three day intensive that I took my
37:51
Speaker 4: family to the whole ending of my book. I talk
37:53
Speaker 4: about this book and how it changed my life. There's
37:56
Speaker 4: also a female version called Letters from Julie I Believe,
38:00
Speaker 4: which is so nine. Rusty Armor is the is about
38:03
Speaker 4: masculinity and the armor that we wear as men, and
38:07
Speaker 4: Letters from Juliette is the female version and it's really
38:10
Speaker 4: powerful short read. It's like sixty pages.
38:13
Speaker 1: I have to read that. Thank you for sharing that.
38:16
Speaker 4: If you are a woman or a man or gender
38:18
Speaker 4: nonconforming or translate, you will relate to this.
38:22
Speaker 3: Fantastic for sure. I do a pretty smart question. I
38:26
Speaker 3: pick one at random every time, So tell me when
38:30
Speaker 3: to stop stop.
38:33
Speaker 1: Okay, Oh, I like this one. What is your most
38:38
Speaker 1: memorable meal?
38:39
Speaker 4: My nana Grace was like she was my person, my
38:45
Speaker 4: dad's mom. She moved to La when I was born.
38:48
Speaker 4: I was by her side for months as she transitioned. Pasked.
38:53
Speaker 4: She got dementia when I was when I was a teenager,
38:57
Speaker 4: but the love we had for each other was like
39:00
Speaker 4: so deep. She's still my person. I'd come home from
39:04
Speaker 4: school and she used to make two things. She would
39:07
Speaker 4: be making a pot of greens and beans. This Italian
39:11
Speaker 4: dish of It's so simple. It's like olive oil and
39:13
Speaker 4: garlic and green beans and spinach boiled for like hours
39:19
Speaker 4: and fast pasta which was the most flavorful, beautiful, amazing pasta.
39:26
Speaker 4: And she would just whip up and I would just
39:28
Speaker 4: eat it like it was just the who whole place
39:30
Speaker 4: would smell. She lived in our guest house for a
39:32
Speaker 4: few years, and that was like, these are the meals
39:34
Speaker 4: that I just would come home to and just makes
39:39
Speaker 4: me think of her and I love her so much.
39:41
Speaker 1: I can smell it as you're talking about it. I
39:43
Speaker 1: love that.
39:44
Speaker 4: And the difference was she made it with love. That
39:46
Speaker 4: was the difference. That was the difference that she made.
39:48
Speaker 4: And this is what she taught me on that meal, sorry, please,
39:51
Speaker 4: is her cooking taught me how to be a filmmaker,
39:56
Speaker 4: an actor and author all the things that I am doing.
40:00
Speaker 4: Because there are a million people that do what I do.
40:02
Speaker 4: There are a million people that knew how to make
40:04
Speaker 4: exactly what my nano made. But myno made it with
40:07
Speaker 4: love for me, with an intention of loving me for food.
40:12
Speaker 4: And it was through that experience and through that dish
40:15
Speaker 4: that I learned how to do everything in my life,
40:17
Speaker 4: which is why everything that I do, I approached and
40:19
Speaker 4: I do with love with that same intention. So that
40:21
Speaker 4: was all her.
40:23
Speaker 3: That's incredible. What is the smartest decision you've ever made?
40:29
Speaker 4: Marrying my wife? There was a moment where right before
40:33
Speaker 4: we got married, I was hit with a wave of
40:36
Speaker 4: buyer's remorse. Out of nowhere, I was, I was not
40:41
Speaker 4: this man, and out of nowhere, all of this patriarchal
40:45
Speaker 4: bullshit ideas of marriage and ball and chain showed up
40:49
Speaker 4: in my psyche and I had no idea where it
40:51
Speaker 4: came from. And I panicked. I freaked the fuck out,
40:54
Speaker 4: excuse my language, And I was like, does this mean
40:57
Speaker 4: she's not my person? Like what I had just proposed?
40:59
Speaker 4: I just like everything was set and suddenly I had
41:02
Speaker 4: a freak out, and I'd never had this freak out before,
41:05
Speaker 4: and talking to a few friends, sitting with it, recognizing
41:10
Speaker 4: that it wasn't me, it was socialization, it was fear,
41:13
Speaker 4: it was all of the things. And moving forward past
41:15
Speaker 4: that and diving into marriage that was the smartest thing
41:17
Speaker 4: I've ever done.
41:19
Speaker 1: It's beautiful. I'm sorry, I'm getting emotional.
41:21
Speaker 4: Don't be sorry of getting emotional.
41:24
Speaker 1: It was a weird thing to get emotional.
41:25
Speaker 3: About but I think listen, I'm on the outside looking
41:29
Speaker 3: and I know that I don't really know anything about
41:32
Speaker 3: your marriage. But when I see you guys interact it,
41:39
Speaker 3: it makes me feel like it exists.
41:41
Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean? Hmm, Well, it does,
41:48
Speaker 4: and we feel the same thing. But it's also because
41:51
Speaker 4: we do a little auto work and nobody ever really
41:56
Speaker 4: sees the work.
41:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, that part.
42:00
Speaker 4: I'm giving you a huge hug, I'm giving you on
42:02
Speaker 4: my back.
42:03
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, I think it does. Thank you for
42:07
Speaker 1: having me, Thanks for your time. I am so grateful.
42:29
Speaker 1: All right, today is a good day. To have a
42:30
Speaker 1: good day. I'll see you next week.