Latest / Core Memory / She's Ready To Gene Edit Babies - EP 32 Cathy Tie

Transcript

She's Ready To Gene Edit Babies - EP 32 Cathy Tie · Core Memory

0:00
SPEAKER_01: I saw your Instagram post, I think, today.
0:03
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
0:05
SPEAKER_01: It was awesome.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: Was it the Barbie one?
0:06
SPEAKER_00: It's the Barbie one.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: I love that movie.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: I was watching it on the plane yesterday coming to SF.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: But you're doing, like, uh, you're like biotech influencer now.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was, like, produced and everything.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
0:20
SPEAKER_00: actually,
0:20
SPEAKER_00: okay,
0:20
SPEAKER_00: so for that video,
0:21
SPEAKER_00: it's my friend who's a videographer for The Weeknd and Future,
0:25
SPEAKER_00: those rap artists and hip-hop artists.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: He made my favorite music video by The Weeknd called Reminder,
0:31
SPEAKER_00: and then we met through The Weeknd's non-profit group,
0:35
SPEAKER_00: And then I was like,
0:35
SPEAKER_00: hey,
0:36
SPEAKER_00: you probably don't know anything about gene editing,
0:37
SPEAKER_00: but I can tell you about it and also I want to make this fun video.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: And he flew to New York and made it.
0:43
Very different than rap music videos,
0:45
of course,
0:45
but he put it all together.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: So shout out to Gerard.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
0:49
SPEAKER_01: well,
0:49
SPEAKER_01: I think we'll at least put a link in,
0:51
but hopefully we can run a little of the footage while we're
0:54
talking because it was
0:55
SPEAKER_01: awesome.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you gotta have fun, you know, sometimes, once in a while.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: Kathy Tai, how are you?
1:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: How are you?
1:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: We didn't know each other until relatively recently.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: I think we had,
1:25
I'm sure we have many friends or at least acquaintances in
1:28
common from biotech
1:30
SPEAKER_01: land.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: And then Josie Zaner, who you do, I've known Josie for many, many years.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's amazing.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
1:39
the two of you were working on a project that we wrote about
1:42
called the Los Angeles
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Project to do gene editing on,
1:47
SPEAKER_01: Animals may glow in the dark bunnies and things like that.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think that got announced in January or February.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
1:54
SPEAKER_00: that was February,
1:55
SPEAKER_00: but,
1:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:55
SPEAKER_00: we were working on it for the last like 18 to 24 months.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's amazing.
2:01
It's based in Austin and ideas,
2:03
you know,
2:03
we want to make unicorns and dragons.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: It's all synthetic biology at the end of the day.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: So Josie and I were thinking about,
2:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
2:10
how to really use it to our full creative potential and how to
2:13
make cool things.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:15
You've had a busy year because I wrote about that earlier in
2:20
the year that it feels
2:21
SPEAKER_01: like a million things have happened.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: We ended up, we ended up
2:24
SPEAKER_01: Well,
2:24
SPEAKER_01: I ended up following...
2:25
SPEAKER_01: All right,
2:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna step back before I get into this whole story.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you are... You're in the biotech field.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: You're kind of like a prodigy in some ways.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you were working in a university lab when you were 15 or 16.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it feels like I'm a Disney child star, but like biotech.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, your bio reminds me a little bit of Laura Deming.
2:50
You both talked your way into these university labs at a very
2:54
young age and started
2:55
SPEAKER_01: publishing papers and doing things teenagers don't normally do.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: You ended up running, I think, two biotech companies.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, before I started Los Angeles Project.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: Right, and then you're a Teal Fellow.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: And so you have this track record of,
3:13
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
3:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: starting biotech startups that did well,
3:17
SPEAKER_01: and then did the Los Angeles project,
3:19
SPEAKER_01: and then we have big news,
3:21
SPEAKER_01: which is just in the last month,
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SPEAKER_01: you've announced the Manhattan Project,
3:24
SPEAKER_01: which is exciting and controversial.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: It's been such a crazy year.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: Sorry,
3:31
SPEAKER_00: I talked to you last,
3:33
SPEAKER_00: like at least over a call,
3:34
SPEAKER_00: it was when I was stuck in Manila,
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Philippines.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: And I remember being so jet-lagged,
3:40
SPEAKER_00: but you were like,
3:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm in the middle of like a shoot in Switzerland,
3:43
SPEAKER_00: somewhere in Northern Europe.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: I was in Switzerland.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: Switzerland, yeah.
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And I snuck in a call with you and you quickly turned around
3:50
that amazing article,
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SPEAKER_00: very well written.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: And it was just the most chaotic time in my life.
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SPEAKER_00: And I feel like just the whole year has been insane from,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I feel like you saw it front row seat,
4:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
4:01
SPEAKER_00: Los Angeles project,
4:02
SPEAKER_00: Manila,
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SPEAKER_00: Philippines,
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SPEAKER_00: and like now Manhattan project,
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SPEAKER_00: so.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: Happy to tell you all about it.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we're gonna get into all this stuff.
4:09
So we'll finish a beat on the Manhattan Project just to let
4:12
people know where we're coming from.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: But just in the last month,
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SPEAKER_01: you announced a new startup,
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SPEAKER_01: new company based in New York to do...
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SPEAKER_01: You were very explicit and open to do gene editing on embryos,
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SPEAKER_01: which is a highly touchy,
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SPEAKER_01: controversial subject for many people.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: And you just came out and said, we're going to go do this.
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SPEAKER_01: And so that's kind of job number one right now, is building that company.
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That's my full-time job right now,
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is being the co-founder and CEO of that company.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's been, yeah, I mean, it's exactly what you said.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: It takes a lot of courage to come out and say it,
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SPEAKER_00: especially in the scientific community where everyone is sort of,
4:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
4:58
SPEAKER_00: It's sort of a monolith.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Everyone's very careful about what they say in the public,
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even though many people agree with this mission and what the
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technology and the
5:06
SPEAKER_00: science needs to do for humanity,
5:09
SPEAKER_00: people won't say it out loud.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: But I feel like it's about time.
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SPEAKER_00: It's been seven years since the first gene-edited children were born,
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SPEAKER_00: although that was done in a way that
5:18
SPEAKER_00: isn't super transparent, but still, it's been seven years.
5:22
And then before that,
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it's been 10 years since gene editing was first used on human
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embryos.
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SPEAKER_00: It happened in China in 2015 by another scientist named Jun Chu Huang.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to pronounce his name because,
5:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: in Chinese,
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SPEAKER_00: there's like the accents on the different syllables,
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SPEAKER_00: but there's another scientist in China that did this.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: So it's been 10 years since that happened,
5:43
SPEAKER_00: and everyone has the exact same narrative,
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SPEAKER_00: the exact same messaging,
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SPEAKER_00: like an absolute ban.
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SPEAKER_00: This is immoral, but it's been 10 years.
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SPEAKER_00: And I feel like we've tried so many things,
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SPEAKER_00: and finally,
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SPEAKER_00: we have to push the conversation forward.
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SPEAKER_00: And there's probably a right way of doing it.
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SPEAKER_00: It's just you need transparency.
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SPEAKER_00: You need IRB approval.
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SPEAKER_00: You need the public to be aligned with it.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: You need it to be ethical, of course.
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SPEAKER_00: And then I think it's just about pushing the science along.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: All right, what do we do at Core Memory?
6:08
SPEAKER_01: We cover innovative,
6:10
SPEAKER_01: fast-moving,
6:11
SPEAKER_01: forward-thinking companies,
6:13
SPEAKER_01: which is why Core Memory is sponsored by Brex,
6:17
because Brex is the intelligent finance platform for many of
6:22
these companies.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: 30,000 companies, from startups to the world's largest corporations.
6:28
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high yield business banking and expense automation tools that
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SPEAKER_01: don't have to waste your time on it yourself.
6:53
Go to brex.com slash core memory to learn more and just,
6:57
you know,
6:58
get with the program.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Let's get going.
6:59
Let's get out of this archaic finance software and move toward
7:04
the future.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: Core memory and Brex.
7:08
And so we've,
7:09
on this show,
7:10
in my writing,
7:10
we've covered a lot lately about
7:13
What's been going on in the IVF world where we've started doing
7:17
more open and
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SPEAKER_01: available screening of embryos for certain traits,
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SPEAKER_01: a lot of this is around health and people going through the IVF process.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: get to pick the healthiest-looking embryos.
7:32
They get to screen for certain diseases or at least get some
7:35
sort of percentages
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SPEAKER_01: that you may or may not get.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: Cancer, all sorts of different conditions.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Orchid is a company we've profiled that has put a lot of, I think,
7:48
SPEAKER_01: scientific rigor into all of this.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: That in and of itself is controversial for some people.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: I see every time Noor posts about Orchid on Twitter,
7:59
SPEAKER_01: you've got some people in the pro camp,
8:01
SPEAKER_01: and then you've got a bunch of people who are like,
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SPEAKER_01: this is especially kind of from the religious side,
8:05
SPEAKER_01: I think,
8:06
SPEAKER_01: of
8:07
You're killing babies,
8:08
you're making this decision on who gets to live,
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who gets to die.
8:11
And then this next step has been even more controversial if
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people start to think,
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SPEAKER_01: okay,
8:17
SPEAKER_01: now we're going to gene edit babies to pick certain traits,
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SPEAKER_01: and people get nervous about this,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
8:25
SPEAKER_01: It's like, what's gonna happen?
8:27
SPEAKER_01: And so...
8:30
SPEAKER_01: It's such a hot-button topic.
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SPEAKER_01: What has happened since you announced this, NPR covered it?
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SPEAKER_01: I feel like I haven't seen some massive backlash.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, everyone's so nice to me.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, damn.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: I was waiting for the bulb job.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: I was waiting for hate mobs.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: I was waiting for crazy people to give me death threats.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: And it was actually really pleasant.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: We got dozens of positive messages from people,
8:58
SPEAKER_00: including patients,
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SPEAKER_00: like people that have genetic diseases,
9:01
SPEAKER_00: like hereditary cancers or trachomerate tooth disease.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: And they come to us and say, hey, you know what?
9:08
SPEAKER_00: I have this mutation going through IVF right now.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: Can we actually use your technology right now to...
9:13
SPEAKER_00: change the outcome of some of these embryos.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: So I think from a technology perspective,
9:18
what we're doing is obviously adjacent to embryo screening and
9:23
some of the
9:24
SPEAKER_00: companies that you mentioned,
9:25
SPEAKER_00: and there's quite a few now.
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SPEAKER_00: But I think philosophically,
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SPEAKER_00: it's quite different because instead of selecting the embryo,
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SPEAKER_00: we're actually giving all embryos a chance.
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SPEAKER_00: And,
9:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
9:36
SPEAKER_00: from a religious perspective,
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SPEAKER_00: instead of thinking about it as,
9:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
9:41
SPEAKER_00: in some cases,
9:42
SPEAKER_00: and I don't necessarily agree with it,
9:43
SPEAKER_00: but people say,
9:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
9:44
SPEAKER_00: you're discarding an embryo,
9:45
SPEAKER_00: discarding a life.
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What we're trying to do is save that embryo and save that life
9:49
and give it another chance.
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SPEAKER_00: And also...
9:51
SPEAKER_00: For couples going through IVFs,
9:53
they're typically older and they have less embryos to choose
9:57
from in the first
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SPEAKER_00: place.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: So I think having more embryos that could be viable,
10:01
SPEAKER_00: disease-free,
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SPEAKER_00: is actually super helpful from like an embryo count perspective.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we're trying to give people more options, more chances.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: And so philosophically, I think that's where we're different.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: And hopefully,
10:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:13
we keep getting the message across in a way that people can
10:15
resonate with and be
10:16
SPEAKER_00: aligned with.
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SPEAKER_01: And is that how you're framing the Manhattan Project right now?
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It's mostly for people going through IVF,
10:24
or can you make other changes to the embryo?
10:27
We're only focused on eliminating diseases right now because
10:30
from a scientific
10:31
SPEAKER_00: perspective,
10:31
SPEAKER_00: the correlation is very well understood for a handful of diseases.
10:35
Quite a few actually,
10:36
you know,
10:37
just in terms of genotype-phenotype relationships.
10:40
You know that's the one mutation or this one disease gene is
10:42
absolutely responsible
10:44
SPEAKER_00: for the outcome of a patient getting a disease.
10:46
So that's where we feel comfortable applying this technology,
10:49
at least in the first phase.
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SPEAKER_00: You know,
10:51
and I think that's where we have to be responsible with the
10:54
science and that's
10:54
SPEAKER_00: actually where we draw the line.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: It's on disease prevention.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: I think anything else when it comes to polygenic traits,
11:01
SPEAKER_00: things that people talk about a lot in the media,
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SPEAKER_00: especially when people are trying to sensationalize it,
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SPEAKER_00: like enhancements,
11:07
SPEAKER_00: eugenics,
11:08
SPEAKER_00: we're not interested in that.
11:09
We're not interested in things that we don't even understand
11:11
from the scientific perspective.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: IQ is one that everyone talks about or attractiveness.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: It's really,
11:16
really hard from a scientific perspective to understand the
11:20
genetic causes of those
11:21
SPEAKER_00: things.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: So you're looking at monogenetic single gene illnesses for right now?
11:27
SPEAKER_00: For now, yes.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: So I come in with my partner.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: We get the IVF test.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: It says, we've identified this embryo may suffer from this condition.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: And you would what?
11:39
You would go in and use CRISPR to remove,
11:43
to swap out this damaged part of the DNA?
11:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
11:46
SPEAKER_00: it's a simple microinjection to the embryo,
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SPEAKER_00: and it contains the changes that you would want to make.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: Now,
11:53
SPEAKER_00: since seven years ago when the first gene-edited babies were born,
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SPEAKER_00: there's way better techniques that are way more precise and safe,
12:00
SPEAKER_00: meaning that there's less potential for off-target effects,
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SPEAKER_00: so unintended consequences.
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SPEAKER_00: things like base editing, for example.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: It helps,
12:09
SPEAKER_00: especially if it's just a single nucleotide change,
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SPEAKER_00: which applies to quite a few diseases.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't induce a double strand break,
12:16
SPEAKER_00: so it's simply a chemical-induced change for that one nucleotide,
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SPEAKER_00: like an ATCG.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: You replace that, and then you're able to have a healthy embryo.
12:25
And so we just did a story on baby KJ,
12:27
KJ Muldoon,
12:28
who became a celebrity baby.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: I feel like he was born eight months ago or nine months ago,
12:38
SPEAKER_01: somewhere in there,
12:39
SPEAKER_01: I think,
12:39
SPEAKER_01: in Pennsylvania,
12:41
SPEAKER_01: and had a single gene monogenetic disorder.
12:47
was going to be life-threatening at some point was when he
12:53
consumed protein it was
12:54
SPEAKER_01: over producing ammonia it was not being um
13:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, his body just didn't process protein the way most people do.
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SPEAKER_01: And so, totally debilitating condition.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: This was the first time I...
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SPEAKER_01: We've had gene therapies before,
13:15
SPEAKER_01: but the first time people kind of sprung into action with this infant...
13:21
SPEAKER_01: and were able to push through a gene therapy,
13:24
SPEAKER_01: get FDA approval,
13:26
SPEAKER_01: had something ready,
13:27
SPEAKER_01: and into a baby.
13:28
SPEAKER_01: This was worldwide news.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: The thought is,
13:32
SPEAKER_01: at least in the story that we wrote,
13:35
we were arguing this was a milestone where it looks like
13:39
there's millions upon
13:41
SPEAKER_01: millions of kids that suffer from these rare genetic conditions.
13:45
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we are now entering a phase where
13:48
Regulators are ready to move more quickly where we've proven
13:52
out that this
13:52
SPEAKER_01: technology is safe enough.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, so this is all falling in a similar bucket.
13:57
You would be arguing the editing technology has gotten safe
14:02
enough that we can,
14:04
because I imagine that must be some of the pushback you would
14:07
be getting is like,
14:08
SPEAKER_01: are we at this point where this is safe enough?
14:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a couple things there.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: I think one, that does advance the field from a consent perspective.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: From the technology side,
14:19
you're just using it earlier when it's actually much more
14:24
effective to get the
14:25
SPEAKER_00: genetic changes into the embryo or the blastoid.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: I think for an organism, especially an adult, there's trillions of cells.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: This is why somatic gene therapies are really difficult to develop.
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It's because you have to deliver the genetic changes to the
14:44
specific cells in your body.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: And just because there's trillions of them,
14:48
SPEAKER_00: you have to do it in an effective way,
14:49
SPEAKER_00: but also it has to be safe for the host because you do it via a virus,
14:53
SPEAKER_00: so you don't want to kill the host either.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: So it's a very complex issue.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: It's really the delivery mechanism that's very difficult.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: But with an embryo or a very early stage blastoid,
15:05
SPEAKER_00: you have the potential just to change the entire embryo at once with one
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SPEAKER_00: microinjection.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: So it becomes a lot more effective from a technology perspective,
15:15
SPEAKER_00: but also from a cost perspective.
15:17
The first gene therapy that was approved by the FDA for sickle
15:22
cell anemia
15:24
SPEAKER_00: CAST-GV, it's $2 to $3 million USD per patient per dose.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: And,
15:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:30
SPEAKER_00: for something that you can inject into an embryo,
15:33
SPEAKER_00: it would be like 1% of the cost,
15:36
SPEAKER_00: if not less than that.
15:39
SPEAKER_00: And one of the biggest issues for every country right now is the national
15:42
SPEAKER_00: healthcare spending for,
15:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:45
SPEAKER_00: healthcare for,
15:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:47
SPEAKER_00: doctor consultations,
15:48
SPEAKER_00: drug pricing,
15:48
SPEAKER_00: especially in this country.
15:50
And so if you're able to provide patients that have
15:52
debilitating heritable diseases
15:54
SPEAKER_00: with a much more cost-effective and safer option,
15:58
SPEAKER_00: then why not do it?
16:00
SPEAKER_00: And part of what you said about, you know, is it safe enough now?
16:04
SPEAKER_00: While that's a great milestone,
16:05
SPEAKER_00: I think,
16:05
SPEAKER_00: for the germline gene therapy side,
16:07
SPEAKER_00: it's still very early because there's been proposals of a moratorium,
16:11
SPEAKER_00: a 10-year ban.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: So it's a paradox, right?
16:14
SPEAKER_00: It's a paradox in the sense that bioethicists
16:17
SPEAKER_00: want to keep saying that's not safe,
16:19
SPEAKER_00: or people want to keep saying that's not safe,
16:21
SPEAKER_00: but you can't make it safe if you don't work on it.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's important to push this narrative forward.
16:26
It's been 10 years since we first saw a scientist in China
16:29
gene-edited human embryo,
16:31
Jianzhu.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, there's been no progress in the conversation publicly.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: And I think the public's tired of that.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's stagnation across all fields, especially biotech.
16:41
And I feel like this is the one area where we can significantly
16:44
change how medicine
16:45
SPEAKER_00: is created,
16:47
SPEAKER_00: how healthcare issues are addressed,
16:49
SPEAKER_00: while saving lives,
16:50
SPEAKER_00: saving money for countries and national healthcare systems.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
16:55
SPEAKER_00: but most importantly,
16:56
give people an option to not have to spend money when they're
16:59
like not have to get
17:01
SPEAKER_00: treatments when they're an adult after they've suffered from the disease,
17:03
SPEAKER_00: but rather not be born with the disease in the first place.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think there needs to be more research done in this space.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: It's definitely not ready right now because there was a moratorium.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: There's such a, you know,
17:15
SPEAKER_00: There's so much sensitivity around it.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: There was a federal funding ban in the US for this technology.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: I do think that doing animal studies,
17:23
SPEAKER_00: even IRB-approved cell line studies,
17:25
SPEAKER_00: things like that,
17:26
that's really important to address the safety issue if we want
17:29
to have this
17:29
SPEAKER_00: conversation productively.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: All right, well, let's get into some of the controversy.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: All right.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: Which you have, in some ways, a personal relationship to.
17:44
You mentioned the Chinese doctor 10 years ago,
17:48
but then more recently,
17:50
how many years ago?
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Five, six?
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Seven.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Seven years ago.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to need help on the pronunciation now.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Oh, He Jianhui.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: And then people call him JK.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: And so he was a Chinese scientist, um,
18:08
did gene and please help me out if i butcher something but did
18:12
gene editing on two
18:13
two children i think and and so ended up huge controversy i
18:20
mean the scientific
18:21
world they were they were still um in the embryos right and and
18:26
and was trying to
18:27
alter their genes to prevent them from getting hiv later in
18:31
life i think they lived
18:33
SPEAKER_01: in uh
18:34
SPEAKER_01: a region that had very high prevalence of HIV, and the argument was
18:39
SPEAKER_01: was kind of putting in this safety measure.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: The scientific community recoiled.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: I think the arguments were this technology is not ready.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: You're also changing the genes.
18:49
It's not like you're changing this for an illness that these
18:52
children already have.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of this predictive, preventative measure.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: J.K.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: ended up spending three years in prison.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: So the Chinese government seemed to
19:06
SPEAKER_01: You had worldwide scientists reacting against it,
19:08
and then the Chinese government seemed to see this negative
19:12
attention and really
19:14
SPEAKER_01: crack down.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: And so J.K.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: was in jail for three years.
19:17
Then he comes out,
19:19
he starts a new lab,
19:20
which I didn't know he was gonna do that.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: I thought maybe he'd be in the penalty box for a very, very long time.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: And then it was like earlier this year?
19:31
SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, I'll let you tell the story.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the two of you...
19:34
SPEAKER_01: The two of you meet,
19:36
SPEAKER_01: and then for a moment in time,
19:38
it looks like you were maybe going to start this type of
19:42
company in China.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: So, well, why don't I let you tell the story?
19:47
What was your relationship like with JK,
19:51
and did I sum up most of those points?
19:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good summary of his previous life and work.
19:59
And I met him about two years ago through mutual connection,
20:03
who is from Shanghai.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
20:05
SPEAKER_00: I was just as shocked as you are when I found out after prison,
20:09
SPEAKER_00: he was going to go back to the germline editing space.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to do more of that.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Can we define germline really quick for people?
20:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, germline cells are reproductive-related cells.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: So sperm, egg, embryos, really anything that's not a somatic cell.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: Somatic cells are basically anything that's not a germline cell.
20:26
So like your eyes,
20:27
your skin cells,
20:28
your hair cells,
20:29
those are somatic cells.
20:30
So when you say somatic gene therapy,
20:32
it's just targeting any of your organs or your eyes.
20:39
When you say germline gene correction,
20:40
you're talking about anything to do with reproduction.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: your embryo or even eggs.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: I guess sperm as well.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So you're doing this editing at this very early, early stage.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
20:53
And just as the embryo is dividing cells very rapidly,
20:56
you do it as early as possible.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: So as it divides,
20:59
it has a healthy copy of the disease gene or corrected version
21:02
of the disease gene
21:03
SPEAKER_00: as it divides and divides into a full human being.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: I know I cut you off.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: I knew we were going to say germline a lot.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to throw that there.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: So he comes out, he's doing this work.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: It catches your attention.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: And...
21:17
SPEAKER_00: I guess I didn't know too much about the details before that,
21:22
so I don't specifically know what happened in 2018 when the
21:25
twins were announced,
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Lulu and Nana.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: But earlier this year,
21:30
SPEAKER_00: we did have a very short-lived personal relationship,
21:33
SPEAKER_00: and then I was banned from China.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: You announced on Twitter.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, if I'm going too far, let me know.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: But you announced on Twitter you were getting it married.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: It was kind of amazing.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: JK had the best Twitter account going on or X account, whatever.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, he was doing these amazing posts.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: I kind of loved it.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: It was like biotech marketing.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: same thing, influencer sort of style and very funny.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: And then anyway,
22:04
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
22:05
SPEAKER_01: the two of you were publicly kind of getting together on X.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: And then I saw the story and I reached out to both of you.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to go to China and do a piece on all this.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: And then in the middle of it, I think you got married.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: You had a wedding ceremony.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we had a ceremony.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: You had a ceremony,
22:27
SPEAKER_01: and then you kind of came back to the US for a minute,
22:30
SPEAKER_01: and then we're heading back to China on X,
22:34
SPEAKER_01: looked like to go start a new biotech research lab or startup,
22:38
SPEAKER_01: and then,
22:39
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
22:39
SPEAKER_01: you were not able to get in to China.
22:42
So the Chinese government must have seen all these things going
22:46
on on X and had some concerns.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:52
I don't want to comment too much on the relationship,
22:54
but I do wish him the best.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: For me, it's been a very wild ride.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: I've never had travel restrictions before,
23:03
SPEAKER_00: so when that happened to me,
23:04
SPEAKER_00: I was really confused and surprised,
23:07
SPEAKER_00: and you were one of the first people I talked to about it,
23:10
SPEAKER_00: and you wrote an excellent piece.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: I still read it once in a while, just to feel nostalgic.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: But, yeah, you know, it was a very strange experience.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I think I learned a lot from that.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't mean to trivialize anything.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm sitting here with a slight smile on my face.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: Only if it's your life, and I don't mean to.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: Only because it was dramatic and, like, this whirlwind.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I was shooting a movie in Switzerland when all this happened.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: I remember we would...
23:40
SPEAKER_01: We're doing our shoot,
23:42
SPEAKER_01: and then I was interviewing you on the side,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: and then we were packing up our gear,
23:45
SPEAKER_01: and I was writing the story up,
23:47
because I think there were a lot of people in my journalism
23:50
world that were
23:51
SPEAKER_01: fascinated by the story.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, J.K.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: has been this person that science writers have been interested in a lot,
23:59
SPEAKER_01: and then there was this whole
24:01
SPEAKER_01: In my head at that time, I was like, oh, well, this is fascinating.
24:06
I think China will race ahead of the United States on this type
24:11
of technology,
24:12
SPEAKER_01: and I...
24:14
SPEAKER_01: We talked about some of this,
24:15
SPEAKER_01: but...
24:19
SPEAKER_01: You could see...
24:21
SPEAKER_01: Like,
24:21
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
24:22
SPEAKER_01: the US and China are competing on many fronts,
24:24
SPEAKER_01: but to me,
24:25
SPEAKER_01: the US has felt restrictive on this type of technology.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: You could see a world where China pushed dramatically ahead,
24:34
SPEAKER_01: and it looked for a minute,
24:36
SPEAKER_01: like,
24:36
SPEAKER_01: the two of you could be this,
24:37
SPEAKER_01: like,
24:37
SPEAKER_01: superpower,
24:38
SPEAKER_01: you know?
24:39
SPEAKER_01: Coming together to do this.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: And then, so, yeah, I don't mean... I'm not even trying to...
24:44
SPEAKER_01: really pry into your personal life,
24:46
but obviously something changed and you decided to come to this
24:50
in the US.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, you got banned.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: So you were stuck in the Philippines for a few days.
24:57
Yeah,
24:57
it was the longest five days of my life because I have no
25:02
experience with geopolitics.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Canada, where it was very peaceful.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: And then I spent most of my life in Silicon Valley and then LA.
25:12
I was excited to spend more time in China because I moved out
25:16
when I was four.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: I moved to Canada.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: I was excited to learn more about the country.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: I hear about things in the news.
25:22
They have a lot of cool robots and drones that deliver food and
25:27
bubble tea.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: I was excited to see all those things.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: Of course, see what's happening in the biotech side.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: But I think from a biotech perspective,
25:37
SPEAKER_00: at least on the pharma side,
25:39
there's eight pharma companies that have over a $200 billion
25:46
market cap in the US.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: There's actually none in China.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: There's zero in China.
25:51
And I feel like although China does well in a lot of things
25:55
like manufacturing,
25:58
SPEAKER_00: robots, things like that.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if biotech,
26:04
SPEAKER_00: from a market cap perspective,
26:05
just looking at the fact that the US has eight $200 billion
26:08
market cap pharma
26:09
SPEAKER_00: companies and China has zero.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if China is as aggressive there.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, surely they can.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: They have, from an embryo perspective, they have
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Lots of IVF clinics.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: They have lots of embryos.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: They have lots of primate centers, lots of monkey embryos.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: Those are really good for research.
26:26
Monkey embryos,
26:27
what you use to do preclinical research before you use human
26:31
embryos,
26:31
of course.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: And so they definitely have a lot of potential.
26:35
But unfortunately,
26:38
after my travel restrictions happened three months ago,
26:41
SPEAKER_00: You know,
26:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't have access to,
26:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:44
SPEAKER_00: being in China or,
26:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:45
SPEAKER_00: what's happening there,
26:47
SPEAKER_00: information on what's happening there on the biotech side.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: But I am super excited to be building this in the U.S.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: I think,
26:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:53
SPEAKER_00: despite the moratorium or the proposed moratorium,
26:56
SPEAKER_00: despite the federal funding ban over the last 13 years,
26:59
SPEAKER_00: I think some of the best talent and research on embryology,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: on genetic modification,
27:04
SPEAKER_00: like gene editing,
27:05
SPEAKER_00: gene correction and germline cells,
27:07
SPEAKER_00: it's still happening in the U.S.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: and it's just being privately funded.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: And I spoke to a lot of those researchers and,
27:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:13
SPEAKER_00: we have a super exciting announcement coming up in later in September.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: We're working with actually like 12 like amazing PIs,
27:21
SPEAKER_00: researchers in this embryology space,
27:24
SPEAKER_00: genetic engineering,
27:25
SPEAKER_00: genetic gene editing,
27:26
SPEAKER_00: gene correction space for germline.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: Even bioethics, we have a bioethics person on board now.
27:30
So,
27:31
you know,
27:31
I think we're moving ahead really fast and it's all US talent.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think that US still leads the way in this field,
27:39
SPEAKER_00: not just technologically,
27:40
SPEAKER_00: but also ethically.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I want to get back to that.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: Last question on the personal drama.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
27:44
did you ever get any more insight from some Chinese government
27:49
official on exactly
27:50
SPEAKER_01: what they were upset about or why you were banned?
27:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to comment.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: No, I don't want to.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: I do not want to get more involved in the geopolitics stuff.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: I just want to focus on my science, on my little lab.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: Because would you be able to say if you were,
28:05
SPEAKER_01: you obviously did not see that coming or you wouldn't have got other.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: So that was.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: I wish I knew because if I had known,
28:12
I would not have gone in the first place because what happened
28:15
was I gave up my
28:16
SPEAKER_00: place in LA,
28:17
SPEAKER_00: my car.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: I moved all my furniture into storage.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: I brought all my things with me, including my dog.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: And then halfway or more than halfway to China in Manila,
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Philippines,
28:29
SPEAKER_00: that's when I found out I couldn't travel to China.
28:31
But by the time I found out that I couldn't go to China,
28:34
I already gave up all my things in LA.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: So I literally didn't have a place to go back to.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: I had no home.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: So I had to go to my parents' house for a bit.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: I stayed at hotels.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: And literally right now, I'm still staying at a hotel.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: So I had no idea.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: I really didn't know.
28:47
So somebody was watching something,
28:49
but they didn't raise concerns to you or anything.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: They just didn't let you in.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I wish I knew.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: But,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: on the plane,
28:58
SPEAKER_00: it's weird because,
28:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:59
SPEAKER_00: from LA to Manila,
29:00
SPEAKER_00: it's a 14 and a half hour flight.
29:02
I was with my dog and I would see the flight attendants like
29:05
whispering about me.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: It was so weird because,
29:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:08
sometimes I see people whispering about me because maybe I have
29:10
a dog and they're
29:11
SPEAKER_00: like,
29:11
SPEAKER_00: oh,
29:11
SPEAKER_00: the dog is so cute.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: But,
29:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:13
SPEAKER_00: just the whole flight,
29:14
SPEAKER_00: I would catch them in the,
29:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:16
SPEAKER_00: lavatory area and they're like just whispering and being like,
29:19
SPEAKER_00: that's Kathy.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Like...
29:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, what's going on?
29:23
SPEAKER_00: And now it makes sense,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: because as soon as I landed,
29:25
SPEAKER_00: I got off the plane,
29:26
SPEAKER_00: and there was someone holding up a sign with my name.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: They brought me over to the transfer desk, and that's when I found out.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: They took my boarding pass, and that's when I found out I couldn't go.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: Just crazy.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay,
29:35
SPEAKER_01: since day one,
29:36
the Core Memory Podcast has been supported by the fine people
29:40
at E1 Ventures.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: They are a young and ambitious VC firm in Silicon Valley,
29:45
SPEAKER_01: investing in young and ambitious companies and people.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much to E1 Ventures for all your support.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: Your point on China and the pharmaceutical companies is interesting.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: I remember for a while,
29:58
SPEAKER_01: I got really into the Beijing Genomics Institute,
30:01
SPEAKER_01: BGI,
30:02
SPEAKER_01: and they were this dominant force in DNA sequencing.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: And I remember the founder had one of my favorite quotes of all time,
30:10
SPEAKER_01: which was something like,
30:11
SPEAKER_01: if it's cute,
30:12
SPEAKER_01: we're going to sequence it.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: If it tastes good, we're going to sequence it.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: It was basically like, we're going to sequence everything.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think they did, you know, just run around.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: doing all kinds of animals, everything.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: And then,
30:22
SPEAKER_01: so I,
30:23
SPEAKER_01: and I,
30:23
SPEAKER_01: in my head,
30:25
SPEAKER_01: just from that,
30:26
SPEAKER_01: and this was a long time ago,
30:27
SPEAKER_01: 16 years or something,
30:28
SPEAKER_01: I just,
30:29
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
30:29
SPEAKER_01: okay,
30:30
SPEAKER_01: well,
30:30
SPEAKER_01: they're going to race way faster than the US.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: When you're talking about the,
30:34
SPEAKER_01: um,
30:35
SPEAKER_01: some of this very advanced work and everything,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: that does seem to be the case that the US remains,
30:40
SPEAKER_01: at least in my eyes,
30:42
SPEAKER_01: the world leader in this type of technology.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: You brought up the monkeys as well,
30:48
SPEAKER_01: which is an interesting thing,
30:49
SPEAKER_01: because in China,
30:50
SPEAKER_01: I think they have much more access to monkeys than the U.S.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: does, and it is this key part of experimentation.
30:58
I keep running into this in both the brain-computer interface
31:01
field and on this
31:02
SPEAKER_01: genetic stuff,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: so I'm curious.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow, that does converge, right?
31:05
SPEAKER_01: How that plays out, yeah.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: So there's quite a shortage of monkeys in the U.S.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: right now, and it's a...
31:12
It's definitely not the most pleasant topic to talk about,
31:15
because of what they're used for.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it's like no joke, you know?
31:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
31:21
SPEAKER_01: I hear about these islands in the Caribbean,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: where people go,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: it's a crazy,
31:25
SPEAKER_01: crazy world.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: So you decided to do this in the US.
31:32
It's an interesting time because my impression from friends is
31:39
that with the Trump
31:40
SPEAKER_01: administration,
31:41
SPEAKER_01: it was like I heard they're even like anti-IVF,
31:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:45
SPEAKER_01: and not even the stuff we're talking about with
31:49
and things like that,
31:50
they're just kind of anti-IVF to begin with,
31:52
much more conservative.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: So for you to start this in this moment in time,
31:58
SPEAKER_01: it didn't feel like extra risky on top of the pre-existing controversy,
32:05
SPEAKER_01: I guess.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
32:08
SPEAKER_00: it's hard to predict politics,
32:11
SPEAKER_00: especially when you're not an expert,
32:12
SPEAKER_00: but from an external perspective,
32:14
the same framework has been around for 13 years in terms of
32:20
federal funding ban
32:21
SPEAKER_00: from the Congress to FDA to review this technology.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: And that's been a long time, like 13 years.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: And the technology has progressed a lot since then.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: Back then,
32:33
what got the Congress a little stressed about germline gene
32:36
editing was actually
32:38
SPEAKER_00: MRT,
32:38
SPEAKER_00: mitochondrial replacement therapy,
32:39
SPEAKER_00: this idea of a three-parent child.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what that is.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do you know what a mitochondria is?
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: The powerhouse of the cell.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: So I made that joke on X,
32:51
SPEAKER_00: actually,
32:51
SPEAKER_00: at some point,
32:52
but it's actually really important to know because mitochondria
32:56
replacement therapy
32:56
SPEAKER_00: was the first type of germline gene therapy that was looked at by FDA,
33:01
SPEAKER_00: and that's what caused Congress to pull funding from the FDA,
33:05
SPEAKER_00: and that,
33:06
SPEAKER_00: because it's a germline gene therapy,
33:07
SPEAKER_00: that,
33:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:08
SPEAKER_00: that then applies for all germline gene editing.
33:10
So then later on,
33:11
when it came to nucleus gene editing,
33:13
like the DNA,
33:14
the double helix,
33:15
SPEAKER_00: that still fell under the same rules as overall germline gene therapy.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: But what were they freaked out about in particular?
33:22
Yeah,
33:22
mitochondria replacement therapy is idea where you have...
33:26
So there's a cell,
33:26
right?
33:27
SPEAKER_00: And there's a nucleus.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: And then there's other, you know, organelles.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: There's a cytoplasm, which is, like, the surrounding fluid.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: And then inside, there's, like, organelles.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: There's mitochondria.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: And the mitochondria sometimes can have mutations.
33:42
So in the context where a couple has an embryo where the embryo
33:46
has mitochondria
33:46
SPEAKER_00: that has mutations,
33:47
SPEAKER_00: anti-DNA mutations,
33:49
then what you can do is replace that mitochondria through
33:54
sucking it out and then
33:57
replacing that cytoplasm mitochondria with the cytoplasm
34:01
mitochondria of a healthy
34:02
SPEAKER_00: embryo.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: In this context, it was actually done on an egg cell.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: It was done by Shukram Atalapov at Oregon, OHSU.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: And it was the idea of taking a donor egg,
34:12
SPEAKER_00: a very healthy donor egg with healthy mitochondria,
34:16
SPEAKER_00: healthy cytoplasm,
34:17
SPEAKER_00: taking that out and putting it into a patient egg.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: So the nucleus is still the patient's nucleus.
34:24
It's still her DNA,
34:25
but the cytoplasm with the mitochondria is someone else's from
34:31
another egg.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: I see.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: And then when you fuse that with the sperm, you can still have an embryo.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: But from a science perspective, you're looking at three different people,
34:39
participating in creating an embryo instead of two,
34:41
which is what's normally done.
34:43
And so the news press sensationalized it and called it a
34:46
three-parent child.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: And then people objected to that on the usual ground.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: This is weird to wrap their head around as a family.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
34:55
SPEAKER_00: a Republican senator came out in Congress and said,
34:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:00
SPEAKER_00: we can't allow this and then fold funding.
35:02
So it's actually not against the law to do germline gene
35:04
therapy,
35:04
but there's no law to appeal.
35:07
It's really just the funding that has been removed from the
35:11
Congress to FDA to look
35:12
SPEAKER_00: at this technology and improve it.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: But it really did start with MRT,
35:15
SPEAKER_00: a mitochondrial replacement therapy,
35:17
SPEAKER_00: which wasn't specifically germline gene editing,
35:20
SPEAKER_00: right?
35:21
SPEAKER_00: You're not actually gene editing the nucleus of the cell,
35:23
but that's what started the regulation change that affected all
35:26
germline gene
35:26
SPEAKER_00: therapies.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: So it's been a long time since that happened.
35:29
SPEAKER_00: That was like the early 2010s.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: Now we're in 2025, the technology has progressed a lot.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: The UK has done additional studies on this.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: In fact,
35:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:38
SPEAKER_00: that technology,
35:40
SPEAKER_00: that technology that I've described that Dr.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: Mittalapapa,
35:44
SPEAKER_00: which has you worked on,
35:45
SPEAKER_00: that's been used by IVF clinics around the world.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: Over 100 children have been born with that technology.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: And yet we're not allowed to do anything.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: We're not allowed to perform that in the US,
35:56
SPEAKER_00: but in other countries like Mexico,
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Ukraine,
35:59
SPEAKER_00: and other countries,
36:00
SPEAKER_00: that has been done in other IVF clinics.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: So I think from a technology perspective, we're so much more ahead.
36:07
And I think from a public sentiment perspective and also a
36:10
healthcare cost
36:11
SPEAKER_00: perspective,
36:11
I think this is needed at least to have a conversation about
36:14
and to do experiments
36:16
SPEAKER_00: the right way to show safety and efficacy.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
36:19
SPEAKER_00: if people,
36:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:20
SPEAKER_00: we live in democracy,
36:21
SPEAKER_00: so like if most people want this,
36:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:23
SPEAKER_00: and they're the taxpayers to fund this research,
36:26
SPEAKER_00: why should we not,
36:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:27
SPEAKER_00: work on this?
36:27
SPEAKER_00: And in a way, you know, we don't want to withhold treatment.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: In fact, that's unethical if we do have the treatment on our hands.
36:34
So you didn't get any major pushback when you came out and
36:39
announced this?
36:40
SPEAKER_00: No.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: Maybe people are working on it in secret.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: But so far, no.
36:45
It's been like three weeks,
36:47
three and a half weeks,
36:48
and everything's good.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: We've been getting so much support.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: I think people are just tired of the same narrative.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
36:53
SPEAKER_00: if you look at the news articles from 10 years ago in 2015,
36:56
when the first Chinese scientist that generated a human embryo
37:00
but didn't implant
37:01
SPEAKER_00: it,
37:01
SPEAKER_00: it's the same pushback from the same people,
37:03
SPEAKER_00: same reporters,
37:04
SPEAKER_00: the same scientific...
37:06
know leaders it's the exact same narrative so i think people
37:09
are tired of it like
37:10
and you know like other things haven't worked so you know
37:14
people are desperate for
37:15
for change i can't tell i get because x is such a it's very
37:21
hard for me to tell how
37:22
close to reality it is or or the like mainstream opinion i do
37:27
see when orchid posts
37:29
SPEAKER_01: um and we ran our we
37:32
SPEAKER_01: ran a video on them.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
37:33
SPEAKER_01: the comments are pretty nasty,
37:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:36
SPEAKER_01: and you get people that more or less see this as abortion or something,
37:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:42
SPEAKER_01: like on that level of you're meddling with
37:45
meddling with the way things are meant to be and still a very
37:51
Christian country.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: And like I mentioned, I mean, especially with the... Yeah, I don't know.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you... It's interesting to me.
37:59
I mean,
37:59
you didn't get any pushback,
38:01
but I can't tell if you're right that overall...
38:05
SPEAKER_01: minds have changed or not, yeah.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, we'll see how things go.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure,
38:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:09
SPEAKER_00: once we announce more things get more reach,
38:11
SPEAKER_00: you never know how the sentiment might change in replies and such.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, it's also understandable.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: An embryo is something,
38:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:20
SPEAKER_00: historically is made,
38:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:23
SPEAKER_00: through love and,
38:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:24
SPEAKER_00: intimacy and a lot of culturals and traditions and
38:29
SPEAKER_00: just throughout history, it's such a special thing.
38:33
And to suddenly apply a very logical view on it and tell people
38:37
what to do and what
38:38
SPEAKER_00: not to do,
38:39
I can see how that is a little bit violating to people's
38:43
subconscious thoughts and
38:44
SPEAKER_00: their feelings about something that is so private and intimate.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: Historically,
38:49
humankind has not been able to have this type of conversation
38:52
or have these
38:53
SPEAKER_00: technologies be available until the last decade or a couple of decades.
38:57
So it's quite understandable why people have that gut reaction
39:01
or like that very
39:02
SPEAKER_00: first jerk reaction.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: But I'm also confident that at least with this approach,
39:08
SPEAKER_00: for what we're doing,
39:09
it's really for a small group of people that have debilitating
39:13
heritable diseases.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: And it ultimately is a choice.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: If you don't want it, totally, that's fine.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: But there are many people who want it.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: So why apply
39:23
a rule or a law to all the people and not give them the option
39:28
to have if they want
39:29
SPEAKER_00: it,
39:29
especially if they have a very painful disease that they don't
39:33
want to pass down to
39:33
SPEAKER_00: their children.
39:34
And it could be very expensive to take care of from like a
39:36
national health care
39:37
SPEAKER_00: cost perspective.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: You have this fantastic track record.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: I have it in my notes, but you might have to save me time.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: Your first company was Renomics, and you started running that at 18.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:51
SPEAKER_01: And it's still going, isn't it?
39:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's still going.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you stay there for what, like three years or so?
39:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was there for three years from 18 to 21.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: And what does it do?
40:01
SPEAKER_00: At first, we're focused on genetic testing analysis.
40:03
There's a large number of variants that you see in tests are
40:07
variants of unknown significance.
40:09
So we were deciphering the pathogenicity of those variants in
40:12
cancer testing panels
40:13
SPEAKER_00: for BRCA1,
40:14
SPEAKER_00: BRCA2.
40:15
We sold a lot of data to companies around the world that do
40:18
genetic testing,
40:19
SPEAKER_00: including a company you mentioned earlier,
40:21
SPEAKER_00: Beijing Genomics Institute.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: as well as several other genetic testing labs in the US and Europe.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: And then later on, we became more of a genomic services company.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: We do mutagenesis.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: It's been a while,
40:33
SPEAKER_00: but multi-site parallel mutagenesis to make mutation libraries for enzyme
40:37
SPEAKER_00: engineering,
40:38
SPEAKER_00: protein engineering projects.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: So we supplied variants for some bio companies,
40:42
SPEAKER_00: pharma companies to make better drugs,
40:44
SPEAKER_00: better proteins and enzymes.
40:46
And I just bring this up just to give the audience some sense
40:49
of where you're
40:50
SPEAKER_01: coming from and what you've done,
40:52
SPEAKER_01: you know?
40:52
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, super impressive.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: You ran that as an 18-year-old.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: Can I ask a crass question?
40:58
I mean,
40:58
that was financially,
41:00
it seems like that must have been good for you.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
41:05
SPEAKER_00: it was definitely a big risk at the time,
41:07
and I actually ended up investing a bunch of my Teal Fellowship
41:11
money into that
41:12
SPEAKER_00: company,
41:12
SPEAKER_00: too.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I really, really liked running that and ended up doing well.
41:18
And then you did some venture capital work,
41:21
and then you started another company,
41:22
LockBio.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: And what happened to Lock?
41:26
SPEAKER_00: It's still running.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: It's a really great company.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: It's a Shopify for drugs platform.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: You know,
41:31
the idea that you can white label the entire stack of a
41:34
telehealth offering from
41:35
SPEAKER_00: the software to payment processing to compliance to doctor consultations,
41:40
SPEAKER_00: pharmacy fulfillment for medications.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: You can just white label all of that and give any brand,
41:45
SPEAKER_00: any company,
41:47
SPEAKER_00: just all the access to run a healthcare operation and compete with
41:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:53
leading companies like Hems and Roman who are redefining the
41:55
consumer experience
41:56
SPEAKER_00: for healthcare and drug prescriptions.
41:58
I think,
41:59
um,
41:59
you know,
41:59
that was our goal and we were quite successful at it.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: And then, if I can speak frankly... Yeah.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: You're an adventure.
42:07
SPEAKER_01: You confuse me a little bit.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
42:09
SPEAKER_01: you start the year announcing the Los Angeles Project,
42:12
SPEAKER_01: which in and of itself,
42:14
SPEAKER_01: I think,
42:14
SPEAKER_01: would be,
42:15
SPEAKER_01: um...
42:16
SPEAKER_01: That would be enough for a lot of people.
42:18
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna go make genetically engineered animals.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna make unicorns.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: That seems like a full-time sort of job.
42:25
And then you shifted so quickly to maybe going off to China to
42:31
start a whole other
42:32
SPEAKER_01: venture,
42:33
SPEAKER_01: and then now back.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, is this...
42:38
SPEAKER_01: I assume one does not plan for this?
42:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this was just life taking you where life was taking you.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, why not just do the Los Angeles project full-time?
42:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, that was my plan.
42:49
I was going to move from Los Angeles to Austin to be with my
42:53
team and run the company there.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, none of this was planned.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
43:02
For me,
43:02
like,
43:02
nothing happens for a while,
43:03
and then suddenly everything happens.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: This is the heart of my question.
43:07
I feel like you must have been searching for something or in a
43:12
open-minded period
43:13
SPEAKER_01: of life where you were looking for your next big adventure.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: And then I just would have thought,
43:18
SPEAKER_01: oh,
43:18
SPEAKER_01: well,
43:19
SPEAKER_01: the Los Angeles,
43:19
SPEAKER_01: that seems like quite an adventure to go on.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: And you shifted gears so quick.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's two parts.
43:26
I think one is,
43:28
personally,
43:29
I was in a place where I was in LA for four years already.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: I went through a breakup last year that was really heartbreaking.
43:37
And I wanted to kind of go out and be authentic and just be
43:41
myself and just do the
43:42
thing that my heart desires instead of conforming to society
43:46
and what society
43:47
SPEAKER_00: expected of me and how I should be acting based on.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: other people's perception of me, which honestly wasn't a bad life.
43:54
I just think that maybe I was deprogrammed when I was 18 to
44:00
drop out of school and
44:01
SPEAKER_00: really see the world for what it is,
44:02
SPEAKER_00: and that curiosity never left me.
44:06
I think a lot of it is like genetic testing is something that
44:10
caught my interest.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: Like I was always into philosophy in high school.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: I took six courses in philosophy, including college credits.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: And I felt like DNA just held the answer to so many of our questions.
44:24
It's this bridge between the physical reality and kind of the
44:29
intangible reality.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: And so I've always had this curiosity around it.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: I love gene editing, too, this concept where you can change genes.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: But I ended up being more pragmatic and starting to sell drugs online.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: But my heart was always in genetics.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: So that's why I attempted,
44:49
SPEAKER_00: through so many ways,
44:50
SPEAKER_00: to really think about what I wanted to do back in genomics.
44:55
Yeah,
44:55
it took a lot of attempts,
44:56
and a lot of those attempts were public.
44:57
SPEAKER_00: But it was really unplanned.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day,
45:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to solve that question I have,
45:04
SPEAKER_00: the initial question that drew me into studying DNA,
45:08
SPEAKER_00: studying genetics.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: It's just like, what is the reality of life?
45:11
SPEAKER_00: And what is consciousness?
45:13
SPEAKER_00: What are we all experiencing right now?
45:17
SPEAKER_00: So that's what drew me back, especially back to human genetics.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: And so that's how I ended up back here.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's been a crazy journey.
45:24
SPEAKER_01: You said you were deprogrammed,
45:27
which you could read that as that's something that happens to
45:32
you or something that
45:34
SPEAKER_01: you more actively chase.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: Did you have a pretty traditional upbringing?
45:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, yeah, relatively.
45:45
It's kind of your typical,
45:46
like,
45:46
immigrant kid story or,
45:48
you know,
45:48
very ambitious.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: Like,
45:50
SPEAKER_00: every year I would,
45:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
45:54
SPEAKER_00: cold email,
45:55
SPEAKER_00: in high school,
45:56
SPEAKER_00: I would cold email 100 professors.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: and I would try to get some type of lab position.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: Nothing was ever handed to me.
46:03
Even when I published a paper when I was 16,
46:04
I emailed 100 professors,
46:08
and one of them replied.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, you know what?
46:11
SPEAKER_00: Sure, come to my lab.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: Ended up being the only high school kid he's ever had in his lab.
46:15
SPEAKER_00: And I actually revisited him many years later.
46:18
SPEAKER_00: I actually made a donation to his lab, and he was really thankful.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: It was such a cool reunion moment.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: So I really hustled.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: But I think more importantly, like I was always challenging norms.
46:29
I was put into this like academically rigorous program in high
46:32
school called IB.
46:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's a lot of your viewers went through IB.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: International baccalaureate?
46:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: It's like AP, but like philosophical.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:40
SPEAKER_01: Was this a public or a private high school?
46:42
SPEAKER_00: This was a public high school.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: And I was very ambitious.
46:46
Everybody wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer,
46:49
and it was very,
46:50
very competitive.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: So I was in the rat race quite a bit.
46:54
During my summers off in high school,
46:55
I went to Penn to study philosophy and psychology.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: I went to Harvard to study physics the next summer.
47:00
These are all real college credits that you would get at the
47:02
end of the summer.
47:03
And I remember the Harvard physics was so hard because I didn't
47:06
take any physics before then.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: I had like a bald slaw on my head.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: because I was so stressed out.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: So I was in the rat race, really deep in it.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to get into the best college.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: I was taking all the SAT tests, all the SAT two subject tests.
47:19
SPEAKER_00: So I was very, very hard working.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: But then I realized, what is the point of that?
47:24
SPEAKER_00: You just end up getting an internship position.
47:26
In college,
47:27
everybody was trying to get an internship at JP Morgan or do a
47:32
PhD.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: And I was already in the lab since I was in high school.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: And looking around me, everyone was so depressed.
47:38
Like all the PhDs and postdocs were just pipetting 14 hours a
47:41
day,
47:42
you know,
47:43
writing grants.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I just really, I started questioning reality.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: So when I had the opportunity to start my own company,
47:52
SPEAKER_00: although at a young age,
47:54
I feel like I've seen enough of that and really felt the rat
47:56
race myself to kind of
47:58
SPEAKER_00: see through and take that chance,
47:59
SPEAKER_00: take that leap of faith.
48:00
And the Teal Fellowship only helped,
48:01
you know,
48:01
confirm that that is an okay path to take.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: And so after I took that,
48:07
SPEAKER_00: I was just,
48:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:09
blown away at how different the world is when you're outside of
48:12
that race versus
48:13
SPEAKER_00: when you're in it.
48:14
So I had to do a lot of deprogramming to kind of like see the
48:17
world for what it is
48:18
and create my own world model instead of kind of just looking
48:22
at like courses and
48:23
criteria and the next job and the next job after that and live
48:26
my life that way.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: It's a really hard thing to do, especially when you're 18.
48:29
My parents,
48:30
I think,
48:30
always fully expected I would be a lawyer or a doctor.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: And then I became a philosophy major in college.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: And here I am still gainfully employed.
48:40
But I remember there was like a horrifying conversation to have
48:44
with my parents.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: The philosophy is so cool.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
48:46
SPEAKER_01: Well,
48:46
SPEAKER_01: philosophy was fine,
48:47
SPEAKER_01: I guess,
48:48
SPEAKER_01: just because I positioned that as pre-law,
48:50
SPEAKER_01: which you can do.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: But in my head, I had already checked out of that.
48:56
I think I knew in my head that I was not going the route that
49:00
I'm sure my parents expected.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: And it's really, I went to a very competitive high school.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, same thing.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: I was very much in the...
49:08
SPEAKER_01: rat race and and so when you were deprogramming yourself and having these
49:13
realizations how did your parents react it's got to be kind of
49:17
cool when your kid's
49:17
like i'm going to start a company at 18 um they're kind of
49:21
traditional i mean they
49:22
just want to protect me and they're like you know our like 18
49:25
year old daughter is
49:26
in san francisco alone they're in canada um so that's where i
49:29
grew up in canada and
49:31
SPEAKER_01: um in like vancouver toronto toronto okay
49:33
SPEAKER_00: So quite far from SF,
49:34
SPEAKER_00: and especially when you're 18 alone in SF,
49:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:37
SPEAKER_00: your parents are pretty worried.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: And,
49:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:41
SPEAKER_00: my grandparents too,
49:42
SPEAKER_00: like my family's pretty close and they were like,
49:45
SPEAKER_00: oh,
49:45
SPEAKER_00: you're never gonna find a husband if you don't go to college.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: That's where you're supposed to find a husband.
49:51
SPEAKER_00: And so,
49:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:51
at first there was definitely a lot of pushback just to put me
49:55
back in the
49:55
SPEAKER_00: traditional route.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: Did you tell them how many single men were in San Francisco?
50:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
50:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that made them more worried or less,
50:03
SPEAKER_00: but yeah,
50:05
SPEAKER_00: it's just,
50:06
I think at some point you have to realize that like your life
50:08
is your own and
50:09
SPEAKER_00: you've got to take control of it.
50:10
And even though it kind of is hard to deal with people who are
50:15
close to you not
50:16
SPEAKER_00: approving some of your decisions,
50:17
SPEAKER_00: at the end of the day,
50:18
SPEAKER_00: like it is your life and you're responsible for how you live it.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: And you have to be happy with the way,
50:23
SPEAKER_00: the chances that you took,
50:24
SPEAKER_00: the risks that you,
50:26
SPEAKER_00: the bets that you made on yourself at the end of your life.
50:29
Did you end up in a biotech community house,
50:33
or where did you live when you were 18?
50:35
SPEAKER_01: That does seem scary.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I lived with a random couple I found on Airbnb.
50:39
SPEAKER_00: They're actually so nice.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: I think the guy worked for HBO or something,
50:45
SPEAKER_00: or Hulu at the time,
50:47
SPEAKER_00: and they were my local parents.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:51
How long did it take your parents to feel comfortable with what
50:55
you'd chosen to do?
50:57
SPEAKER_00: I think it took them seven years.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: I think I was 25 when they were like, you know what, it is what it is.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: She's not going to change her mind.
51:04
SPEAKER_00: You know,
51:05
SPEAKER_00: there were many years,
51:06
SPEAKER_00: even when I was a VC,
51:08
SPEAKER_00: because Michael,
51:08
SPEAKER_00: as a VC,
51:09
SPEAKER_00: during my like one year at...
51:12
at the VC firm was to learn,
51:14
and they're like,
51:15
why don't you just learn in school?
51:16
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, honestly, not a bad idea.
51:18
SPEAKER_00: So I did re-enroll in school, but I didn't attend any.
51:23
SPEAKER_00: I went to the orientation,
51:25
SPEAKER_00: got my student card,
51:26
SPEAKER_00: and then everybody was like,
51:28
SPEAKER_00: oh,
51:28
SPEAKER_00: I want an internship at Goldman Sachs.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, I can't hang out with you.
51:32
SPEAKER_00: And then so I kept a student card so I can get student discounts.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: Where was it?
51:38
SPEAKER_01: What school?
51:39
SPEAKER_00: Columbia.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: So I dropped out twice.
51:41
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
51:42
SPEAKER_01: Most people don't know that.
51:44
SPEAKER_01: You did LA for a bit, and now you've picked New York.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: You like New York.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: I love New York.
51:51
SPEAKER_00: It was so unexpected because I was supposed to go to Beijing,
51:56
SPEAKER_00: and then I went to Toronto,
51:57
SPEAKER_00: and I was trying to figure out my next steps.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, the last three months have been so crazy.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: I was in Toronto, and I was like, okay, what do I do?
52:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I start a company.
52:06
SPEAKER_00: My co-founder has been amazing.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: Ariana Haisoli, she was head of biological science at Colossal.
52:11
SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
52:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I saw that.
52:13
SPEAKER_01: That is right.
52:15
SPEAKER_01: Colossal's doing pretty massive gene editing on...
52:20
animals best known at the moment for trying to bring the woolly
52:25
mammoth back.
52:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
52:27
So she was the head of biological sciences there,
52:30
and she did her postdoc at the church lab.
52:32
And she's just like me in terms of passion for bringing this
52:35
technology to parents
52:37
who may have genetic diseases and want the option to have
52:41
germline gene therapies
52:42
SPEAKER_00: available to them.
52:43
SPEAKER_00: So she's very passionate about that too, very bold about that mission.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: So we teamed up.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: I went to Boston to visit her when I was still at my parents' house.
52:53
SPEAKER_00: And we really got along,
52:55
SPEAKER_00: and we decided to start this company together,
52:58
SPEAKER_00: and now we've brought on some incredible people,
53:01
SPEAKER_00: and we actually have a lab,
53:02
SPEAKER_00: a full lab set up now in New York City.
53:05
SPEAKER_00: We chose New York for a number of different reasons,
53:07
SPEAKER_00: from the research collaborations you can have,
53:11
SPEAKER_00: IVF centers,
53:12
SPEAKER_00: regulations,
53:13
SPEAKER_00: to the fact that it's just called Manhattan,
53:15
SPEAKER_00: so we can call ourselves a Manhattan Project.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: And it's a nice city.
53:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a little unfair.
53:21
SPEAKER_01: You've got the Los Angeles Project and the Manhattan Project.
53:24
SPEAKER_00: I think you sound very creative with names.
53:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you're taking some good ones.
53:27
SPEAKER_01: That's bold.
53:30
What is,
53:30
like,
53:32
annoying reporter question,
53:33
I mean,
53:33
what is the trajectory of the company like?
53:36
So you've only been around for about a month,
53:39
so you've got this team you're assembling.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: How long does it take to begin offering these types of services?
53:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, it depends on regulatory.
53:48
Our goal right now is just to do the preclinical work in animal
53:50
models and we're
53:52
SPEAKER_00: getting IRB approvals and such.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: So that's the first step is to create data in animal models,
53:58
SPEAKER_00: cell lines to show safety and efficacy.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: Once that is done,
54:02
SPEAKER_00: and we also concurrently want to do more public outreach,
54:06
want to do patient advocacy type of work to bring in a
54:09
different type of just a
54:10
number of different opinions to the table and push us along
54:13
from a regulatory
54:14
SPEAKER_00: perspective.
54:15
SPEAKER_00: Once that's done,
54:16
SPEAKER_00: once regulatory changes,
54:18
then I think we'll be positioned to then bring it to the clinic
54:23
and bring it as a
54:23
SPEAKER_00: real option to patients.
54:25
Once regulatory changes,
54:26
you know,
54:27
those could be famous last words for some people.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't, yeah.
54:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, we all have to bet on something.
54:38
SPEAKER_01: And so,
54:39
SPEAKER_01: are there...
54:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
54:41
SPEAKER_01: we talked about China a little bit,
54:42
SPEAKER_01: but like,
54:43
SPEAKER_01: is Europe doing this type of thing,
54:45
SPEAKER_01: or this is like a US and China thing to be had?
54:48
SPEAKER_00: I think there are other countries doing this, for sure.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
54:51
SPEAKER_00: IVF clinics have been doing MRT,
54:53
SPEAKER_00: for example,
54:53
SPEAKER_00: in other countries for a very long time now.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: A UK group published a paper about MRT in embryos.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: So people are talking about germline gene correction in many countries.
55:07
And I think regulations will change across many countries,
55:13
not just the US,
55:14
once that happens.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: OK.
55:15
SPEAKER_01: All right, let's get sci-fi for a minute.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: Like,
55:20
SPEAKER_01: if I were in your shoes,
55:22
SPEAKER_01: I would talk about curing debilitating illnesses and things like that,
55:28
SPEAKER_01: and definitely frame stuff that way.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: Part of me might think like,
55:34
SPEAKER_01: oh,
55:35
SPEAKER_01: but,
55:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
55:35
SPEAKER_01: there are other uses to this type of technology eventually.
55:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, where does your head go?
55:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
55:42
SPEAKER_01: definitely starting out on illness,
55:46
SPEAKER_01: but do we...
55:47
SPEAKER_01: You have a company that's making genetically engineered animals as well.
55:52
SPEAKER_01: Do we... I'm less into the eugenics stuff.
55:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm not convinced that society...
56:00
SPEAKER_01: goes that way or that they coalesce around,
56:03
SPEAKER_01: like,
56:03
SPEAKER_01: wanting all the babies to look the same and everything like that.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm more interested in, like, superpowers.
56:08
SPEAKER_01: And,
56:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
56:10
SPEAKER_01: we do,
56:11
or there's companies like Variant Bio that I've written on that
56:14
have been scouring
56:16
SPEAKER_01: the world for these unique populations of people that have...
56:20
SPEAKER_01: tremendous genes for fighting diabetes or increasing your metabolism.
56:25
SPEAKER_01: And their VC pitched them as, like, finding the X-Men of the world.
56:32
SPEAKER_01: But,
56:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
56:32
SPEAKER_01: so I'm more interested in things like that,
56:36
SPEAKER_01: or maybe you want to be really tall,
56:38
SPEAKER_01: or less like everybody looks the same and more...
56:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
56:43
SPEAKER_01: sometimes people want a little something extra for their kids,
56:47
SPEAKER_01: and is that of interest to you?
56:50
SPEAKER_01: We can start there.
56:52
SPEAKER_01: My other question is like,
56:53
SPEAKER_01: even if it's not of interest to you,
56:55
SPEAKER_01: do you think it's inevitable that we're going that direction?
56:59
SPEAKER_01: That was a lot.
56:59
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
57:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:00
SPEAKER_01: Pick whatever you like.
57:03
Well,
57:04
like a couple of days ago,
57:05
I learned that,
57:07
do you know this basketball player Yao Ming?
57:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
57:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: I grew up in Houston.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
57:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: Houston Rockets.
57:15
SPEAKER_00: So Yao Ming was actually, I don't know if you want to call this like...
57:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say eugenics, but... Genetically engineered?
57:27
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: So, essentially, his mom is a very famous Chinese basketball player.
57:34
SPEAKER_00: She's 6'2", so very tall for a Chinese woman.
57:37
SPEAKER_00: And then his dad is also a basketball player in China,
57:41
SPEAKER_00: I think 6'7",
57:43
SPEAKER_00: 6'9",
57:43
SPEAKER_00: something pretty tall too,
57:45
SPEAKER_00: especially for China.
57:46
SPEAKER_00: And so when his mom retired from basketball,
57:51
SPEAKER_00: the government was like,
57:52
SPEAKER_00: if you're going to retire,
57:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:54
SPEAKER_00: you got to get married and make an offspring,
57:57
SPEAKER_00: make a baby.
57:59
SPEAKER_00: And so they arranged that marriage.
58:01
They arranged some of their best basketball players to
58:04
reproduce and create a baby
58:06
that is going to be genetically predisposed to being really
58:09
tall and being very
58:11
SPEAKER_00: good at basketball.
58:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, that worked.
58:12
SPEAKER_00: And it worked.
58:14
But,
58:14
you know,
58:14
at the beginning,
58:15
Yao Ming didn't like basketball,
58:17
according to his documentary.
58:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't know him.
58:21
But,
58:21
you know,
58:21
he didn't...
58:22
He became,
58:23
like,
58:23
7'6",
58:23
so way taller than his parents.
58:25
SPEAKER_00: He didn't like basketball.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: He wanted to do, like, archaeology or something.
58:28
SPEAKER_00: But then, you know, you got to just keep your bread for this.
58:32
SPEAKER_00: You got to practice.
58:33
SPEAKER_00: So then he got...
58:34
SPEAKER_00: better and better,
58:34
SPEAKER_00: and then he came to the US,
58:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
58:36
SPEAKER_00: dominated the sports,
58:38
SPEAKER_00: um,
58:39
SPEAKER_00: uh,
58:39
SPEAKER_00: kind of,
58:40
SPEAKER_00: like,
58:40
SPEAKER_00: narrative,
58:40
SPEAKER_00: like,
58:41
SPEAKER_00: all the basketball games.
58:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, he was a superstar, right?
58:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, he was...
58:47
SPEAKER_01: object of fascination for his height for coming from China,
58:50
SPEAKER_01: and then was just a very good basketball player.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
58:52
SPEAKER_01: he was an all-star for a number of years before,
58:54
SPEAKER_01: I think he had feet conditions that slowed him down.
58:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
58:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
58:57
SPEAKER_00: so in a way,
58:59
SPEAKER_00: can one argue that that was an enhancement,
59:02
SPEAKER_00: like a genetically,
59:03
SPEAKER_00: a genetic,
59:05
like something unnatural genetics that resulted in enhancement
59:08
that was intended?
59:10
SPEAKER_00: I think that was a long time ago, too.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: I think he's in his 40s.
59:14
SPEAKER_00: He's kind of old.
59:16
SPEAKER_00: So that was already 40 years ago.
59:18
SPEAKER_00: So much of that was already happening back then.
59:20
SPEAKER_00: And who knows what has happened from then on.
59:24
And that was for something visible,
59:26
for heights,
59:27
for ability to play basketball.
59:29
I mean,
59:29
I don't know what else people could be breeding for,
59:32
breeding humans for,
59:33
right?
59:33
SPEAKER_00: Like there's so many things that we don't know,
59:35
but in a way that's actually really successful because now we
59:39
have Yao Ming that's
59:40
SPEAKER_00: a success case for this type of genetic engineering.
59:45
SPEAKER_00: So from like a germline gene correction perspective,
59:48
I wouldn't say like this is like the first or biggest use case
59:51
because this can
59:52
SPEAKER_00: already happen.
59:52
This has been happening for like decades now since Yao Ming or
59:56
even before then.
59:59
SPEAKER_00: And for a lot of those traits like,
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:00:02
SPEAKER_00: IQ,
1:00:02
SPEAKER_00: just going back to IQ,
1:00:03
SPEAKER_00: attractiveness,
1:00:04
SPEAKER_00: it's not really fully well understood.
1:00:06
So just to go in to make edits may not even be as effective as
1:00:10
just like have two
1:00:11
people be set up in a marriage with the traits that you like
1:00:14
and then do whatever
1:00:15
SPEAKER_00: you did with Yao Ming's parents.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of my stance on that for now.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, I'm with you.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: And obviously we do this all the time as humans, right?
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: And it's like perfectly okay to discriminate around intelligence.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, everyone's like, you want to find someone...
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: intelligent to hang out with, and it's all okay.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_01: But,
1:00:40
SPEAKER_01: okay,
1:00:43
SPEAKER_01: assuming we are able to do multi-genes,
1:00:48
SPEAKER_01: and let's do the thought exercise that we can't,
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: we do know what causes higher IQs or whatever.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, is that something you're open-minded to?
1:01:01
SPEAKER_00: The science has to be there for there to be a productive discussion.
1:01:04
I also think it's,
1:01:06
I believe in having this conversation with different
1:01:08
stakeholders.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_00: I think one part is obviously science.
1:01:11
SPEAKER_00: Science has to work, has to be there.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: The genotype phenotype correlation has to be super solid.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_00: R squared value has to be very valid.
1:01:19
And then on top of that,
1:01:20
you have to bring in legal experts,
1:01:24
people in charge of public health.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_00: people that do bioethics,
1:01:30
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:01:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:01:30
you really want to present everyone's opinion at like a round
1:01:34
table almost,
1:01:35
SPEAKER_00: and then you determine how it's used by society.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_00: And also different countries may use it differently.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_00: Or like, I can't control what Russia does, for example.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_00: So when the technology is available,
1:01:44
those are all conversations that will be had in different
1:01:47
countries and different
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: people will end up doing different things.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_00: But that's the same with any technology.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_00: Even with AI or space or any defense technologies,
1:01:56
SPEAKER_00: the way you use it is based on the groups that have control of it.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think who's going to have control of it,
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: it's not really just a scientist,
1:02:05
SPEAKER_00: it's going to be society,
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: companies,
1:02:08
SPEAKER_00: regulators,
1:02:08
SPEAKER_00: people whose opinions should all be heard.
1:02:12
Where do you imagine China ends up coming down on those types
1:02:17
of questions?
1:02:18
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's too broad, but let's look at the way JK was treated.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:02:22
SPEAKER_01: it's a little bit of a hard case because there was so much controversy,
1:02:26
SPEAKER_01: I think,
1:02:27
around the techniques that were used and the specific nature of
1:02:35
doing this on these
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: twins before they actually had some
1:02:38
SPEAKER_01: you were being treated for.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, you know, crack down on him very, very hard.
1:02:44
And clearly,
1:02:45
we're trying to save face to the international community,
1:02:49
I think,
1:02:49
on some level.
1:02:50
And so if you play that out,
1:02:53
you're looking at me like maybe you don't agree with that.
1:02:55
SPEAKER_00: You're trying to get me banned in China forever.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, you do what you gotta do, because I understand.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_01: You have a lot more at stake than I do.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_01: But if you play it out
1:03:08
SPEAKER_01: forward.
1:03:08
We're in this moment in time where it feels to me like the US
1:03:12
and China are racing
1:03:13
SPEAKER_01: forward on many,
1:03:13
SPEAKER_01: many fronts.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_01: You can see a world where China wants to be at the head of this,
1:03:18
SPEAKER_01: but they also do seem to be having this face-saving.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_01: We want to do what is the consensus somewhere around them.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
1:03:28
I just keep wondering if you think one country really goes for
1:03:31
it and is like,
1:03:33
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:03:34
We're gonna,
1:03:35
even if other people don't agree,
1:03:36
we're gonna go for this and push the edge.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_01: Or do you think when it comes to biotech,
1:03:42
SPEAKER_01: the US and China are both in this kind of face-saving,
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: we're gonna be very pragmatic about how we advance this stuff?
1:03:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, is there a race dynamic like we have in AI and space and...
1:03:55
I would argue that the biotech dynamic is very different
1:03:59
because it's rooted in
1:04:00
SPEAKER_00: collaboration between academic institutions.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_00: If you look at publishing, it's more international.
1:04:09
And that's why you can't really replicate an ecosystem in your
1:04:12
own country and have
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: it be a closed system the way that you can with software companies.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_00: For example,
1:04:17
SPEAKER_00: Google,
1:04:18
SPEAKER_00: Meta,
1:04:19
SPEAKER_00: they're not allowed to operate in China,
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: and they have a different version of it just built for China.
1:04:25
I don't think you can do the same for biotech because I think
1:04:29
the difference here
1:04:30
SPEAKER_00: is that for software companies,
1:04:32
SPEAKER_00: you have a local maxima,
1:04:35
SPEAKER_00: so it's more localized.
1:04:37
You can just cut it off and build your own,
1:04:39
and that's the new local maxima.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_00: For biotech, it's global.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_00: There's a global maxima.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_00: The fact that if you create a cancer drug in the US, it'll work anywhere.
1:04:49
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:04:49
Like you're going to have patients all over the world that
1:04:52
could use this drug.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_00: So you don't necessarily want to block off,
1:04:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:56
SPEAKER_00: all the innovation happening in the U.S.,
1:04:58
SPEAKER_00: for example,
1:04:59
SPEAKER_00: and just try to build your own cancer drug to replicate it.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think the dynamic is different from that perspective.
1:05:04
And as a result,
1:05:07
academia throughout the world is a little bit more of a
1:05:11
monolith.
1:05:12
SPEAKER_00: Like,
1:05:12
SPEAKER_00: for example,
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: if one thing is deemed unethical,
1:05:15
SPEAKER_00: it's most likely deemed unethical in other countries.
1:05:19
I don't think,
1:05:20
I mean,
1:05:20
that's just the way that biotech works and that's very
1:05:22
different.
1:05:24
I don't foresee a future where China or any other country is
1:05:27
just fully closed off
1:05:28
to collaborating with external research groups because that
1:05:31
cuts off a lot of
1:05:32
SPEAKER_00: opportunities.
1:05:33
SPEAKER_00: That's how biotech progresses.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: That's how innovation works in biotech.
1:05:38
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of my answer.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_01: As somebody who was born in China,
1:05:42
SPEAKER_01: grew up in Canada,
1:05:44
SPEAKER_01: worked in the US,
1:05:45
SPEAKER_01: had this,
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: were willing to possibly go move your entire life to China.
1:05:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, horrible, giant question.
1:05:54
But yeah,
1:05:54
what do you make of the current state of this whole US-China
1:05:57
dynamic writ large?
1:05:59
SPEAKER_01: And...
1:06:02
SPEAKER_01: It seems generally unhealthy to me,
1:06:03
SPEAKER_01: the way we're both pitted against each other,
1:06:06
SPEAKER_01: although there does seem to be some reality to it,
1:06:09
SPEAKER_01: although sometimes I think this is all theater made up to
1:06:16
SPEAKER_01: to have the world move along?
1:06:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to answer it if you don't want, but I was curious.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I don't know.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_00: I feel like every day there's news about stuff.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_00: I remember when I was in China very briefly this year,
1:06:31
there were news about how the tariffs were going to apply to
1:06:35
China and also other
1:06:36
SPEAKER_00: countries.
1:06:36
I'm Canadian,
1:06:37
so it definitely impacted supermarkets and things like that in
1:06:41
Canada.
1:06:42
SPEAKER_00: But in China,
1:06:43
SPEAKER_00: I remember like all the manufacturers started being like,
1:06:46
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:06:46
SPEAKER_00: look at this Hermes bag.
1:06:47
SPEAKER_00: It's actually $2.
1:06:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, look at how we actually manufactured this.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_00: This is not what it's marketed to be.
1:06:53
It's not actually manufactured or like hand painted or
1:06:56
something in France.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_00: It's actually just made look at this factory.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_00: So I remember that really clearly.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
1:07:01
SPEAKER_00: probably doesn't answer your question,
1:07:02
SPEAKER_00: but I do feel like there's always like something random that comes out.
1:07:07
But there was like this one moment,
1:07:08
though,
1:07:09
where TikTok was almost banned in the US.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_00: TikTok, you know, being like a Chinese company, that was a whole thing.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of American users went on like Red Note.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_00: and started interacting with Chinese citizens on that app.
1:07:25
And I thought that was a really beautiful moment because they
1:07:27
got to share their
1:07:29
SPEAKER_00: passions or how their day-to-day looks.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_00: The Chinese citizens were like, oh, look at this.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_00: This is the train I took or this is my home, this is my cat.
1:07:37
SPEAKER_00: And then the Americans were doing the exact same thing.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was a really beautiful moment.
1:07:41
SPEAKER_00: So while there's tensions,
1:07:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:07:43
SPEAKER_00: like with terrorists and economic policies or governments,
1:07:47
I do feel like the people of both countries are actually more
1:07:50
similar than
1:07:51
SPEAKER_00: different.
1:07:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think it would be really beautiful for like the populations,
1:07:55
SPEAKER_00: the people to connect more from both countries.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_01: Of course they are, right?
1:07:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is the way this always works.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_01: And when I go to China, people are so nice and...
1:08:06
I just don't think you can travel anywhere and interact with
1:08:08
each other without
1:08:09
SPEAKER_01: realizing we're all...
1:08:11
SPEAKER_01: It's not like I'm breaking new ground here,
1:08:13
SPEAKER_01: but we're all quite similar and on a pretty fundamental level.
1:08:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was just curious on your... I feel like on...
1:08:23
SPEAKER_01: a couple of your other answers.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't wanna say what I don't know.
1:08:27
SPEAKER_01: I felt like you were holding back a little bit.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:08:31
SPEAKER_01: you were like,
1:08:32
SPEAKER_01: when you started this company at the very beginning,
1:08:33
SPEAKER_01: you're like,
1:08:34
SPEAKER_01: look,
1:08:34
SPEAKER_01: this has been around for 10 years.
1:08:36
SPEAKER_01: We haven't done much.
1:08:37
And then when I talked to Josie about the Los Angeles project,
1:08:42
you know,
1:08:42
she's like,
1:08:43
oh...
1:08:44
SPEAKER_01: Most of these biotech people are such conservative duds.
1:08:47
SPEAKER_01: Nobody's trying to do anything interesting.
1:08:49
And I think when you and I have talked,
1:08:51
you kind of agree with that idea in the large.
1:08:58
SPEAKER_01: Are you disappointed with the state of biotech?
1:09:02
SPEAKER_01: We have all these fantastic tools at our disposal,
1:09:05
and it does seem like most startups are just trying to hunt
1:09:10
this single molecule
1:09:12
SPEAKER_01: they can make to sell for a whole bunch of money to Pfizer.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I don't know.
1:09:18
I get the sense that you feel like it's mostly a quite
1:09:23
conservative field,
1:09:24
SPEAKER_01: given the tools that we have.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
1:09:28
SPEAKER_00: I think anyone you ask that's building a company in this space,
1:09:33
SPEAKER_00: aka they've shown that they are willing to take risks,
1:09:37
SPEAKER_00: they probably see that.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_00: Academia and then anything to do with pharma and afterwards,
1:09:43
SPEAKER_00: it's been the same playbook for a long time.
1:09:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's even more censorship in academia than ever.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_00: For example,
1:09:50
SPEAKER_00: there are scientists that really agree with me,
1:09:52
SPEAKER_00: but they would have to whisper it to me in a real life,
1:09:55
SPEAKER_00: in-person setting,
1:09:56
SPEAKER_00: at a lab.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's just really unfortunate.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_00: When I was 18, I started my company first in the genetic testing space.
1:10:06
SPEAKER_00: I really liked the idea that you can use data to prevent diseases.
1:10:10
And then I was like,
1:10:12
okay,
1:10:12
once you figure out you have a disease,
1:10:14
what are you going to do?
1:10:15
SPEAKER_00: Can we fix it?
1:10:16
SPEAKER_00: Can we use gene editing?
1:10:17
SPEAKER_00: We have CRISPR now.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_00: There's so many things we can do.
1:10:19
SPEAKER_00: And nothing materialized.
1:10:20
SPEAKER_00: It's been like 11 years.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm 29 now.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_00: And that field hasn't changed.
1:10:24
The genetic testing field is the exact same because insurance
1:10:27
only covers the
1:10:28
SPEAKER_00: genetic testing of only a certain few genes.
1:10:31
SPEAKER_00: And so without the feedback loop of you test more genes,
1:10:34
SPEAKER_00: get more data,
1:10:35
SPEAKER_00: and then you inform what that data means,
1:10:37
SPEAKER_00: you don't get real progress.
1:10:38
So the system right now is set up in a way where it doesn't
1:10:43
change all that much.
1:10:46
And it feels like,
1:10:48
I mean,
1:10:48
this morning I was speaking with a bioethicist.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_00: One of the few that's actually very,
1:10:54
SPEAKER_00: very for this space,
1:10:55
SPEAKER_00: he actually reached out to me after the announcement.
1:10:59
SPEAKER_00: And he was like,
1:10:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:10:59
this is the most exciting thing right now in the whole space in
1:11:05
my entire career.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_00: This is the only part of biotech that has no stagnation.
1:11:10
And I think he said it really wonderfully because what feels
1:11:13
like the rest of
1:11:13
SPEAKER_00: biotech is just stagnating.
1:11:15
SPEAKER_00: It's been 11 years since I was 18 starting that company.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_00: Nothing changed.
1:11:20
Maybe there's a few more somatic gene therapies,
1:11:22
but they cost $2 million.
1:11:23
SPEAKER_00: So it just feels like...
1:11:28
SPEAKER_00: It feels like no one's bold enough to think differently,
1:11:31
and I think maybe because where biotech is different is that
1:11:34
you typically need a
1:11:35
SPEAKER_00: PhD,
1:11:35
SPEAKER_00: you have to read a ton of papers,
1:11:36
you can spend time in the lab to really understand it and know
1:11:39
what to do with
1:11:41
SPEAKER_00: biotech versus an AI or software,
1:11:43
SPEAKER_00: even robotics,
1:11:44
SPEAKER_00: you can just code something in your backyard or something,
1:11:46
SPEAKER_00: or a garage,
1:11:47
SPEAKER_00: right?
1:11:48
SPEAKER_00: You build something, that's how Amazon started in your garage.
1:11:52
SPEAKER_00: But with biotech, there is that barrier.
1:11:54
SPEAKER_00: And so to get through that barrier,
1:11:55
SPEAKER_00: you have to go through academia,
1:11:56
which then programs you to think and say things a certain way
1:12:00
because there's so
1:12:00
SPEAKER_00: much censorship now.
1:12:02
SPEAKER_00: And then by the time you're done with it,
1:12:04
SPEAKER_00: after your PhD and your postdoc,
1:12:05
SPEAKER_00: you're like 30 years old or maybe early 30s.
1:12:08
you've already kind of been programmed to say and do a certain
1:12:10
type of thing and
1:12:11
SPEAKER_00: academia is a monopoly.
1:12:13
SPEAKER_00: So,
1:12:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:12:14
SPEAKER_00: if you say the wrong thing,
1:12:15
SPEAKER_00: if you like go against the crowd,
1:12:17
SPEAKER_00: then you get ostracized and you can't publish,
1:12:19
SPEAKER_00: you can't get grants and then your life is over versus in tech,
1:12:23
SPEAKER_00: just get another job at another big tech company.
1:12:25
SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot more at stake for this.
1:12:28
SPEAKER_00: I think that's one of the reasons for stagnation,
1:12:31
SPEAKER_00: but not just academia,
1:12:32
SPEAKER_00: it's like the biotech industry as a whole.
1:12:33
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of other issues like reimbursements,
1:12:36
SPEAKER_00: like for example,
1:12:37
SPEAKER_00: for genetic testing,
1:12:38
SPEAKER_00: that's why you have a lack of data and more genes that can test.
1:12:43
SPEAKER_00: So all to say that I am pretty bullish on this because it feels like,
1:12:48
SPEAKER_00: as the bioethicist earlier today said,
1:12:49
SPEAKER_00: it feels like it's the only part of biotech with less stagnation,
1:12:53
SPEAKER_00: and he's trying to spend more time with us too.
1:12:55
SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited about that.
1:12:56
SPEAKER_01: Seems like George Church could get away with just about anything.
1:13:00
SPEAKER_01: His lab,
1:13:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:13:02
SPEAKER_01: they always make these big proclamations,
1:13:05
SPEAKER_01: but it feels almost like limited to his lab to some degree.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
1:13:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:13:12
SPEAKER_00: he's done a lot of work in this space,
1:13:15
and I really like the fact that he is quite open-minded in
1:13:18
terms of what this
1:13:19
SPEAKER_00: technology can do and the applications that are applicable here.
1:13:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
1:13:27
SPEAKER_00: I think,
1:13:28
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:13:28
SPEAKER_00: someone earlier today actually also told me,
1:13:30
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:13:30
SPEAKER_00: he's like the dawn,
1:13:31
SPEAKER_00: like a benevolent dawn of biotech.
1:13:34
SPEAKER_01: It seems to be, you know, I've started...
1:13:39
SPEAKER_01: Hundreds of startups.
1:13:41
SPEAKER_01: It's hard to keep track.
1:13:42
SPEAKER_01: All right, I'm going to set you free after one last question.
1:13:45
SPEAKER_01: This Instagram post I'm fascinated by, is this the start?
1:13:50
SPEAKER_01: Was that just like a one-off or are you,
1:13:53
SPEAKER_01: I felt like you were almost like a character that you're,
1:13:57
SPEAKER_01: this like biotech character that you're embracing.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_01: Is this going to be an ongoing thing or was that a one-off?
1:14:06
SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
1:14:06
SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
1:14:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, right now I am a biotech Barbie.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_00: And you're a podcast Ken.
1:14:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm just Ken.
1:14:15
SPEAKER_01: You're Ken-off.
1:14:19
SPEAKER_01: Because, wait, you did have a couple biotech Barbie posts.
1:14:23
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just...
1:14:24
SPEAKER_01: Was it just one?
1:14:25
I know the video was one,
1:14:26
but I thought you posted first just with the newspaper.
1:14:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was like a screenshot of the video.
1:14:31
SPEAKER_01: Right, right, okay.
1:14:33
So,
1:14:34
yeah,
1:14:34
that's what made me start thinking this was going to be an
1:14:37
ongoing.
1:14:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll see.
1:14:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
1:14:39
SPEAKER_00: I am also a little new to this media game, but I'm having fun.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes...
1:14:44
SPEAKER_00: Biotech,
1:14:47
SPEAKER_00: there needs to be a way for biotech to be communicated to masses,
1:14:51
SPEAKER_00: the public,
1:14:52
SPEAKER_00: and entertainment could be a good way to do it.
1:14:55
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's not me in the future, but I'm having fun while I'm at it.
1:15:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:01
SPEAKER_01: Is there anything you would like to set the record straight?
1:15:04
SPEAKER_01: I think MIT Tech Review did a big story on some of this saga.
1:15:09
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, NPR covered your launch.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_01: Are there things that people got wrong that you want to fix?
1:15:18
SPEAKER_00: Truthfully, I didn't read the MIT Tech Review article.
1:15:22
But no,
1:15:23
I think we covered a lot of subjects,
1:15:26
and I'm pretty happy with what we covered.
1:15:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't think we missed anything.
1:15:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:15:30
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:15:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, I definitely didn't want to make you cry or anything.
1:15:33
SPEAKER_01: So we had more like love life drama than I usually get on my podcast.
1:15:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I did it to myself.
1:15:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:15:43
It's not often I have like a,
1:15:45
you know,
1:15:45
international biotech celebrity couple kind of thing.
1:15:53
SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for coming in.
1:15:55
SPEAKER_01: We really appreciate it.
1:15:56
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
1:15:57
SPEAKER_00: That was fun.
1:16:02
core memory podcast is hosted by me ashley vance it is produced
1:16:07
by david nicholson
1:16:09
and me our theme song is by james mercer and john sortland and
1:16:15
the show is edited
1:16:17
SPEAKER_01: by the john sortland
1:16:20
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, as always, to Brex and E1 Ventures for making this possible.
1:16:27
Please visit our Substack YouTube and podcast channels to get
1:16:32
more of what Core Memory makes.
1:16:34
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, y'all.