Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 78: Not All Men?

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Ep. 78: Not All Men? · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word.
• 0:26
  And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Hello. Hey, are you guys interested in Jesse McCartney? That was maybe one of our most exciting intros ever. Have you ever heard that song? Well, I have.
• 0:54
  I wasn't talking to you.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: I was talking about the royal you. You out there in the world. If you have not heard Jesse McCartney, can I interest you in some some music? Some real beats.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Yep. From either the early two thousands or the February. Yeah.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: It depends on, like, what vibe of his. Because he was such a thing when we were younger. Mhmm. And he's he's a musician, in case you have no idea where we're going with this. And he was such a thing when we were a kid.
• 1:29
  And then he he disappeared for a minute. Mhmm.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: And then
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: he came back with a great album. Mhmm. And we're trying to go to his concert next weekend, but, you know, we're busy. We have lives. So we'll see.
• 1:40
  And also, we're just, like, old. And lazy. Yeah.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: I'm like, ugh. I do wanna do that. But at the end of the day, do I really
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Want to drive an hour downtown to see Jesse McCartney? I don't know.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: We'll see we'll see where I'm at. You'll find out next week. Maybe. If we've decided by then. I think it's on Friday.
• 2:02
  We'll have to have decided by then. So I wanted to tell a story for our intro today. Here's a story. Wow. This is so many throwbacks today already of Alyssa's.
• 2:18
  That sounds bad. Sounds like we need a trigger warning in that story. No.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: It so I was Ray and
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: I had several ordeals this week, and one of them was driving to the FedEx store. We ended up sitting in traffic for an hour and a half, and you'll hear more about that story later. But when we finally did wind up at the FedEx store, I go in, and there's this couple in front of me. And the FedEx worker, she looks at the package and she goes, that's UPS. And the husband goes, oh, no.
• 2:58
  Now mind you, we're in a city where the traffic is real bad, and this parking lot's horrible. So it's just I'm sure it's been an ordeal for them too. Mhmm. And he's like, ugh. You know, she told me and he wasn't being mean, but he was talking about his wife.
• 3:11
  And he he was like, she told me it was FedEx, and I should have double checked, but I just assumed and blah blah blah. And so the FedEx worker was like, well, you know, the technically, the envelope is FedEx. It's just the label is UPS. And she goes, she she was really right. Your wife was really right.
• 3:29
  And the guy just like cracks up. He goes, you women, you always stick together. And it doesn't matter. Like, you're always girl power, you know, whatever. Mhmm.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Solidarity, sister. I was cracking up because it's like,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: it it doesn't always occur to me that that wouldn't be applicable for men. Mhmm. You know? Because women, not always, but so often do stick together.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I think one of the differences that I see between men and women today is that women are kind of always looking out for each other. Mhmm. Not every woman, I would say, but the women in my life that I surround myself with were sticking up for each other, were watching each other's backs, whereas a lot of men are kind of, like,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: self centered. Well, I think, you know, we've talked about the male loneliness epidemic, which I think would be a really good whole episode on its own. Mhmm. But it's this concept of, like, lone wolf. Mhmm.
• 4:29
  Like, I'm gonna do everything on my own. I don't need your support. I don't need anybody else's support. Whereas women will, like, throw all of their support even at a total stranger.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Like, doesn't have to be your best friend.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: I've been known to do that. Mhmm. I wanna hype someone up so much that they're confused.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Well, even like we were at a party last night, and there was a girl there who we Brie has met a couple times. I've never met before. And she went up to get a drink and I was like, do we need to go with her? Does she need like a group? Because she was just standing there by herself and I didn't want her to be alone.
• 5:02
  Mhmm. But that's what women will do. Women will pack bond really quick. Mhmm. And just be there for each other.
• 5:08
  That really doesn't have anything to do with with our topic today. I just thought it was a fun story from my week.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, it could tie
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: in if we want it to. It could tie in strictly because when we were sitting in an hour and a half long traffic to get to the FedEx store. It's been a week, guys.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: It's been a wild almost everything we've tried to do
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: has been unsuccessful. We've really failed. It's been a failure of a week.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'll admit it. Yeah. It's been rough. And I've been in a mood because of it.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. We've both been on our periods. Oh. It's been a bad time.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I need, like, a vacation
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: from life. From this week.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I just need to go away and have an attitude adjustment. You said that recently. And it hasn't happened yet.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Anyway,
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: today Today. We I'm just gonna start out with a trigger warning. The pretty much the title of this episode is not all men. Mhmm. We're gonna be talking about some sensitive topics.
• 6:12
  So if you're at all uncomfortable with that, feel free to skip this episode and go back and listen to one of our 70 other episodes. We don't wanna lose you. You still wanna hang out with us. We're very chatty and fun. But maybe maybe, you know, respect yourself, respect your boundaries.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Yep. We're gonna be talking a little bit about violence against women and assault and things like that. So we know that that's sensitive for some people. For for everybody, really. But if it's particularly sensitive to you, yeah, we've got lots of other episodes.
• 6:43
  We have a good time all the time.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Can I recommend our halloween episode from last year? Frankly, I don't remember what it's called. But it was about the Salem witch trials.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Was it called? Witch, please. No. But it should have been. I think we weren't as crazy back then.
• 6:58
  We were still kind of like tiptoeing around, is this okay? Is this not? And now we just don't care.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: We just don't care. Mhmm. We say what you know, eventually the family stopped listening. So Eventually. Eventually, they did.
• 7:10
  So now we say whatever we want. Yes.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: But it was about the Salem witch trials back, last year, and
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: it came out on Halloween. It did. And it
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: was very good. So hop back
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: and listen to that one. Mhmm. And then come back next week when we talk about more Halloween y things. Yeah. Weeny.
• 7:27
  Anyway. So we decided to start this episode off because we're talking about the concept of not all men. Mhmm. And if you're unfamiliar with that phrase, it comes from, I would say, online. A lot of social media.
• 7:44
  Yeah. And essentially when women will will talk about their stories. Like, hey, a quarter of women will be assaulted in their lifetime. And we'll go into some more stats later. But you'll see a post about that.
• 7:56
  And you'll get all kinds of comments that say, not all men.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Another big one I would say that was very popular maybe a year ago was the man versus the
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: bear. Mhmm.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: People were asked, specifically women were asked, if you were in the woods alone and you saw a man or you saw a bear, which one would you choose?
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: And most women said the bear. Mhmm. Because they're more threatened by men. And so men's response to that was not all men are terrible. But the reality is men have become quite the weapon towards women.
• 8:31
  And so now women have to be on guard all the time.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. And we wanted to share some of our own stories. And frankly, our stories like, you'll hear these stories. And if you're women out there listening, I don't think these stories will be crazy to you. You'll probably sit there and be like, oh, yeah.
• 8:47
  That happened to me yesterday. Mhmm. But this is why the issue is so widespread. Mhmm. So we'll just share some of our own lives.
• 8:56
  Are you ready?
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Buckle up. Oh, boy. If you're our parents Sorry.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Sorry. Wasn't our fault. Yeah. Be mad at society. Yeah.
• 9:05
  So one of my stories was and we'll go through these pretty quick. But in high school, I remember one of my really good guy friends came up to me one time. And this was someone that I was I was pretty close with. And he said, hey, so all the guys are betting on your bra size. Could you tell me what it is so I can win the bet?
• 9:27
  And that started me off on a path of knowing that men were not
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: safe Mhmm.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: In high school. Mhmm. You wanna tell one of yours?
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: I'm just trying to pick which one. I think a time when I felt particularly unsafe and unsettled was in college. I took a job cleaning one of the buildings at night. And it was from nine to eleven at night, Monday through Friday. And my boss at the time was this middle aged man.
• 10:02
  And I would get there kind of early for the job, and I would sit in the office. And it was just like me by myself in this office with this man. And he always made me very uncomfortable, but I couldn't quite say I was uncomfortable because he never did anything specifically to me. Except for staring at me all the time, moving his tongue in a really weird way when he looked at me. And then sometimes, because you're just cleaning a building, right?
• 10:27
  You're having headphones in, not paying attention, he would jump in the room that you're in and scare you and think it was really funny. But to a woman, that's terrifying. I'm alone. I'm cornered in this classroom. There's not a lot of people in this building at 10:30 at night.
• 10:42
  And you're coming up and you're surprising me alone in this room. Yep. I'm uncomfortable. Mhmm. I feel unsafe.
• 10:49
  Yep. And eventually, he was let go. I'm not sure why. But he was let go.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Another one of mine was just probably maybe a few years ago. I went to Meijer and I was at the self checkout. And, you know, you go to self checkout because you don't wanna interact with other humans. Like, do not speak to me.
• 11:07
  And I'm scanning all my stuff, whatever. And the employee comes up to me. And he was a man probably well into his seventies. And at that point, I'm in my twenties. And he kinda looks me up and down and goes, wow.
• 11:20
  You're really beautiful. And I was like, okay. And, you know, you're kinda, like, laughing because that's what women are taught to do, diffuse the situation. Yeah. And he goes, you're the perfect age.
• 11:29
  Older than my granddaughters, but younger than my daughters. Ew. Yeah. And I just you laugh and you walk away. You don't report it because they're not you know they're not gonna Yeah.
• 11:43
  Mhmm. And so you just accept bad behavior
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: And hope that something worse doesn't happen.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. I did get a boy in trouble one time. Good. Good. I had just started a new school.
• 11:58
  It was middle school, specifically. I was in eighth grade. And my class had met in the library Mhmm. With a substitute, I believe. So we're just like, on the computers.
• 12:08
  This is a brand new school to me. I don't know a lot of people. But this guy came over and was just talking. He was chatting me up. Would not stop talking.
• 12:17
  Oddly enough, we did become friends later on in high school. But
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: he just wouldn't stop talking
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: to me. And he kept pressuring me and asking me for a hug. I remember that over and over asking me to hug him. And I wrote a letter to my teacher the next day. I was like, here's what happened.
• 12:32
  This kid is in my class. He made me very uncomfortable. And what I really appreciated was this male teacher took it very seriously. And he gave the letter to the office, the principal, whatever. This kid actually got, like, suspended.
• 12:51
  Looking back, I'm like, oh. And I remember at the time feeling bad after we had become friends. I was like, oh, I'm sorry that I did that to you. That was awful. But then you grow up and you're like, no, no, no.
• 13:04
  That was okay.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: That was the right response.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And maybe he learned something from that.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Maybe he learned, I don't treat women that way. Right. And when we call it out Mhmm. Hopefully yeah.
• 13:14
  Hopefully, they learn. And then also, hopefully, they don't have the opportunity to do it to someone else. Mhmm. Brie and I just so like I said, we sat yesterday two days ago in an hour and a half worth of traffic.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: It was really thrilling. And we're sitting there with our windows down. We had our music playing, whatever.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: I'm having a good time. Like, if I'm gonna be stuck literally for an hour and a half on the freeway, I'm gonna turn up some good jams, and I'm gonna, do a little dance.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: And there was this older man in a big pickup truck in the lane next to us who also had his windows down. And I had noticed him before, like, scooting up next to us and sitting really close to us, leaning his head far to kinda look at us and whatever. Mhmm. And I kinda thought he was annoyed by our music. So I had turned the music down a little bit.
• 14:04
  But he just kept doing it. And then at one point, he was like he stopped very close to us and shouted out his window at us, like, asking us how much longer the traffic was and just doing things that made us feel very uncomfortable and unsafe. And then continued after that. Even after that, we closed our windows because we were like, alright. But I can't stop him from looking at us.
• 14:26
  And he kept continually stopping very close to us, leaning over and looking at us. And it's just, you just expect it Mhmm. As a woman.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: These are things that as women, you're just, that's just part of your existence is feeling uncomfortable.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Now one of the things that we saw when we were researching is kind of the idea that women treat all men as if they're threats. Because, you know, this concept of not all men comes from the idea, I think, that not all men would actually physically attack you. And that's fair. No one out here is saying well, maybe some people are.
• 15:06
  I don't know. We're not out here saying a 100% of men are fully willing to attack women.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: That's clearly not the case. However, if you're a man who has catcalled a woman or who has stared at her boobs instead of her eyes while you're having a conversation or or who has cornered her in a room Mhmm. And had an uncomfortable conversation or who has asked repeatedly for a hug or whatever. Little micro things.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Or commented on a woman's outfit Mhmm. Saying it's making you uncomfortable Mhmm. Or sexualizing her in any way. Right.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Then you are part of the problem. Mhmm. It almost is all men. Because if you are making someone else feel unsafe and uncomfortable, then you are a part of the problem. Even if you aren't the person that would attack a woman.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like you cannot say not all men if you would also say boys will be boys. Yeah. If you're defending that, oh, just boys are just visual creatures and they're they struggle with those things. Mhmm. You're part of the problem.
• 16:15
  Right.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Or if you'll do things like anything that devalues a woman. Anything at all that devalues her and makes her less of a human, less of an equal. Mhmm. You are a part of the problem. And you are a part of the problem that makes us feel unsafe.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: And so we have to behave as though everyone is a threat.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: I would also love to know, boys, were you ever taught as children the same things as girls were taught as children? Like, when you do get your license and you go get gas, don't do it alone at night. Or if you do have to get out of your car, hold your keys between your hands, or carry pepper spray on you. I remember in that job that I had in college, I would have to walk there at night. And it wasn't close.
• 17:01
  It was a good, I don't know, ten minute walk.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: It was pretty far. Yeah.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: At night. And always being on guard, having to have pepper spray on me. Mhmm. Keeping my eyes open. Just like it.
• 17:15
  It's and it's stuff like that,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: but it's even we've talked about this when we go into a grocery store, being hyper aware of any men that are in the aisle with you.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Or did I see him before? Has he been following me around?
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Now should I memorize what he looks like? Yep. Should I remember what outfit he's wearing? Yep.
• 17:34
  Should I make sure that he's not following me out to my car? Mhmm. When I do get to my car, do I have to real quick check underneath and make sure there's no one underneath my car or that someone didn't tag my car in some way?
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. These are all things that we were taught that we logically do have to think about.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: And one of the things that I think is a problem with this concept of not all men Because it's everywhere. Like you make any post, any truthful post about your own life situations and you will see the comments not all men. And the problem with this it is that it reframes the conversation. So instead of it being about that woman's real life experience
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Now suddenly it's about having to defend men, I guess. Like, it reframes things and minimizes and redirects the focus away from her story
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Or from the real statistics that are out there. Mhmm. Instead of just let believing women. Mhmm. And letting them say like, this is my my life.
• 18:37
  This is really what's happening to me. And as if you consider yourself an ally to women, you don't get to sit there and like defend yourself all the time. Just believe her. Hear her and say, you know what? I see that.
• 18:52
  Let's change it.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. And these are things that I'm gonna do as a man to make people more comfortable. Like, I saw a TikTok, and I might have reposted it on our TikTok. But this interviewer was going around a city and asking men like, hey, what do you do in your daily life to make women feel more comfortable? And a lot of men were like, I don't think I do anything.
• 19:14
  I don't think there's a thing that I do. There was one man who was like, you know what? If I see a woman walking alone on a sidewalk and I'm also happening to walk that direction, I move over to the other sidewalk. Just because I know that that would make her feel more comfortable. Mhmm.
• 19:31
  And it does like, it's
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: a minor inconvenience to And what does that look like? Even forget, like, as general people, but, like, as Christians, as we're called to love and care for others Mhmm. What does it look like when you stop defending yourself
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: And defending all men, I guess, And just say, I care about that other person Mhmm. More than my own comfort, more than my own irritation with the situation, whatever. I care about her. And so I'm going to do this simply for that reason. Because we are called to do that.
• 20:07
  I think just humanity should do that. But particularly Christians who are the ones defending this poor behavior so often, we are called to care for others. Right?
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: And it's really frustrating when specifically the Christian people like, remember the Me Too movement? Mhmm. So many women were coming out and saying like, yes, I have also been catcalled. Yes, I've been assaulted. Yes, I've been XYZ.
• 20:31
  This is my story, too. Mhmm. The Christian people were really against that.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Really mad. But they're also the same people
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: saying boys will be boys. Mhmm. And saying, cover up because I don't want you to make my my son or my husband stumble. Mhmm. When really the problem is, hey, how about we just, right from the beginning, teach men that women are people and women should also be respected.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Because you can't control like, okay. Let's assume for argument's sake. And we'll get into a little bit about why clothes don't matter at all when it comes to assault. But let's assume for just a moment that that was accurate.
• 21:12
  You cannot control the whole world. Mm-mm. So if what you're teaching the children around you, whether that's in their Sunday school classes or whether that's your kids or your friend's kids or whatever, you're teaching them, you young boys have no self control. Therefore, the girls need to be your self control for you. Mhmm.
• 21:32
  What happens when he goes to the beach? Mhmm. What happens when he goes to the mall? What happens when he watches a movie and people are wearing things that aren't hyper conservative? That aren't turtlenecks,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: you Like, people aren't controlling him for him.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Right. Self control is the only thing you can control. You can't self control other people. And that's a fruit of the spirit. And so when you try to self control other people, it doesn't go well for you.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: That's why we see absolutely countless pastors, people in authority in churches, having all kinds of allegations against them, being in court for assault. I mean, no one's surprised when we hear it anymore because it's every day.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: No. We just recently posted a story on TikTok about Robert Morris, who is, I believe, a Texas pastor, like mega church pastor. And he also was Donald Trump's, like, spiritual adviser for a time. He's not anymore, obviously. Not obviously.
• 22:38
  Not obviously. No. But he was just convicted for something that he did in the eighties, which was assaulting a minor Mhmm. For multiple years.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Well, when you teach boys, you have no self control. What do you think that the result of that is gonna be? When you teach anyone, you have no responsibility for yourself and what you do Mhmm. Then they will have no responsibility for themselves and what they do.
• 23:05
  Mhmm. If you teach them instead, you are in charge of yourself and your behaviors. Respect others. Mhmm. Because it's what you've been called to do.
• 23:15
  Because that is what God has asked of you. Because it's what it's just being a human. It's just being a respectful, good human. Mhmm. That's a very different life that they're gonna live.
• 23:26
  You are setting your boys up for failure when you teach them boys will be boys. Mhmm. When you teach them not all men. Teach them not to be all men.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. But also teach them to believe women. Yes. And yes, you should be able to answer, like, what things are you doing in your day to day life that make women feel safer Mhmm. Or more comfortable?
• 23:50
  You should be able to answer that question. I wanna
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: go into some of the stats too, just to show what a big global problem this is. Because obviously, like, we haven't quoted this in a while. Where you sit determines what you see, which is a quote from Beth Moore. And I think we see our circle here in The United States. But this is a global problem.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: This is not just an Us problem. So here's some of the stats. And it's there's a lot of them, so bear with me for a minute. According to the WHO, about thirty five percent of women globally have experienced physical or sexual partner or nonpartner violence in their lifetime. That's over a third of women.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: And that's violence. We're not just talking about catcalling in that situation. We'll get to that one. In the EU, one in three women report having experienced violence, physical, sexual, or threats. A hundred and thirty seven women are murdered each day globally by a family member, most of which are men.
• 24:48
  Eighty two percent of female parliamentarians, so women in government, report psychological violence, including threats and harassment, while in office. Nearly half of those report more severe threats, including assault, rape, and abduction. Now here's some more. It doesn't end here. Like, would love for it to just be that.
• 25:06
  Mhmm. That's bad enough. But it doesn't end there. According to US data, sixty five percent of women report having been harassed in public spaces. That includes catcalling and unwanted touching.
• 25:18
  So you're not just talking from a distance necessarily. Both of which are bad, but it can get worse. A 2024 UK survey found that women are very fearful of experiencing online harm. So it also impacts how we interact with people online due to cyberstalking and trolling and misogyny, which means that women have to do more safety work online, including avoiding posting certain things, deleting certain things, putting locks on all of their social medias. So yet another layer of things that we have to do to keep ourselves safe.
• 25:52
  Mhmm. Because I don't know if you can find me from the internet. Over their lifetimes, estimates vary, but studies suggest that one in four to one in three women will experience partner violence. That's twenty five to thirty three percent Mhmm. Of women.
• 26:10
  That's an absolutely unacceptable amount of women. Yeah. To imagine that, that, like, on a good day, a quarter of us and I say us because it's us. It's it's all of the women that would stick together and walk with you to the bathroom.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. One in four of them will be assaulted by their partner. And I feel like it's so sad because none of these statistics to me are shocking.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: That's sad in and of itself. Yep. But what's even more frustrating to me is there's so many people out there who will not believe this. Who will say things like, well there's gray areas. If he's a frat boy at a frat party, and they've both been drinking, and she removes consent halfway through, then that's morally that that's a gray area.
• 27:06
  Mhmm. It's not
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: a gray area.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: It's not a
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: gray area.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: And everybody out there knows exactly what I'm talking about right now. That's the thing is that so many men out there Mhmm. Are taught that women are lying about this. Mhmm. Or that no is only sometimes no.
• 27:23
  Mhmm. Or that, well, touching is okay if you didn't mean anything
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: By it. Like, they just don't believe women.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Or let's talk about marital rape.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Growing up, because we grew up in Christian spaces, that was not a thing. And you can look conservative Christian church does not believe as a whole that marital rape is a thing, that it's even an option because women don't have the option to say no. The moment that you sign that marriage certificate and say I do, your consent is stripped from you. And so you can't say no. You have to be fine with whatever he decides to do to you.
• 28:08
  And so those kinds of cases even you know, we say one in four to one in three. Those cases aren't even being reported half the time. So now this number skyrockets because those women have been taught that their assault isn't assault. Or women also have to weigh, like, okay, if I report this,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: what else is gonna happen to Like, I I think you spoke about this a few episodes ago. There's a woman who reported being assaulted and then lost her job afterwards, even though she won the case. Mhmm. Were we talking about this?
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: It's a TV show. But yeah.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. But things like that will happen because now you're too much drama. Mhmm.
• 28:52
  So now we have to get rid of you. Mhmm.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Well, that's so hey, mom. I'm gonna tell one of your stories. When we were quite young Mhmm. Our mom was working for a company. And this was, you know, back in the day when the Me Too movement had not yet existed.
• 29:07
  And women simply did not have really any rights Mhmm. In their workspaces. And she had a man that was repeatedly, like, telling her super dirty jokes, would seek her out to tell her these really inappropriate jokes. And so our dad called him and yelled at him, reamed him out. And shortly after, our mom was let go.
• 29:30
  Mhmm. Gee. I wonder why. Why could that be? Or from my own life.
• 29:38
  I was working at a church. And I've told you guys this story before. But I was working at a church. And I was being harassed by the husband of a friend. And he would not leave me alone.
• 29:49
  He would corner me in rooms. He tried to touch me, and I reported it. And shortly after, I was laid off. Mhmm. Because even in religious spaces, especially in religious spaces, women are not believed.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Or if they are believed, they're
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: too much drama. They're believed to be less than. Mhmm. And so it's okay to walk all over them because they don't see you on their level. They don't see you as equal to them.
• 30:18
  They don't see you as a person.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: So it's okay to sexualize you. It's okay to give you unwanted touches because you don't hold the same value that they do. And that's why this podcast is called We Are More. Because we do have value equal to men. And it's one
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: of the questions that, as I was researching, kept coming up was for men out there that want to be helpful to women, that want to be an ally, what does it look like to be an ally? Is it just good behavior? Is it just not assaulting women? Is that really the bar? Because I think that's the bar.
• 31:07
  Mhmm. I'm trying to, like, look at and social media is a hellhole. But you look out there and you look at social media and you look at the comments on things and you see all this. And the bar for men, we said this recently, is on the ground.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: And that bar is simply, haven't assaulted anyone today. Like, really? Because in my mind, if you want to be an ally to women, you you don't assault them.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: That that's pretty much right there. Box number one. No assaulting.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Box number two would then be looking at those microbehaviors. Mhmm. Staring at her chest instead of her eyes.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Looking her up and down really obviously. Or really, you know, at all. Maybe just don't sexualize her at all.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Commenting on whether she's wearing makeup or not.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Oh, all the time. I get that all the time.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: Or whether she's smiling enough for you Mhmm. And making you feel comfortable all the time.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: And it also includes calling out other men's bad behavior.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Yes. Hey, if your friend is saying a sexist joke, I guarantee you that's making a woman uncomfortable. Mhmm. Or even if there's not a woman in the room,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: how about we call that out? Mhmm.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: And say, not
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: okay. Right. Because women you know, there's some women that are comfortable calling it out. There are other women, 25 to 33%, who have been in situations that were violent enough that now they're afraid to call it
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: out. Mhmm.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: They've been intimidated into not calling it out. For valid reasons. I cannot fault the women who are afraid to call out bad behavior because that bad behavior cost them something. Mhmm. So when you see someone else behaving badly, don't put it just on the women in the room to deal with that.
• 33:09
  Some of us can and will. But some of us have been hurt because of these behaviors. Mhmm. So it is on you as an ally to call it out, to say that's not acceptable. I will not be in the same room with this.
• 33:25
  You can leave.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: You can apologize and then you can still leave. Here's a couple of quotes that I found as well. And these were from some various interviews of just women talking about their daily life. One says, even for women who don't experience violence or harassment, the fear of it is part of daily life from a young age. Mhmm.
• 33:45
  We have been taught, most of us, that men are threatening. Because even if the violence wasn't against us, if it's one in four, then it's probably either a mom or an aunt or a good friend or a sister? Everybody I wouldn't even say knows at least one person.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: I would say every woman knows at least 10 women Oh, yeah. Who have experienced violence in some way Mhmm. From men.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: And every woman that I know has experienced catcalling, has experienced men sexualizing her body
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Has experienced being made to feel unsafe.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Well, even like modesty culture. Mhmm. Right? More often than not, it's not because they think because I'm a Christian, I should cover up.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: It's because men are threatening, I need to cover up. Mhmm. Because I don't feel like having a man stare at my chest all day or at my legs all day. So I am going to choose to wear something else.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Even though I wanna wear this other thing.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. And that's yeah. Exactly. It's not because we feel that and I guess I can't speak for everyone. But for me in my life, it was never because I felt like God was telling me to do this.
• 35:12
  It was never because I found that in the bible. Mhmm. And we actually have a very contentious post on our TikTok all about People are up in arms about People got real mad. I posted, always remember, modesty isn't a fruit of the spirit. And people got mad.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. If you wanna go read some fun comments, go ahead. But
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: really, like, I didn't dress a certain way because I felt like God was asking it of me. And that wasn't even really how our parents presented it to us. It was presented, at least for us, and I can't speak for all kids who grew up in Christian churches, but for us, it was presented as this is a safety issue.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Because here's another quote. Men only have one thing on their mind.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: That's what's always being preached to women.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Is men are always thinking about sex. So because they're always thinking about sex
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: You have to change everything about yourself. Mhmm. So that you can stay safe.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: So that you don't become a statistic.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. There's an art exhibit. Sad to call it art, but there's a touring art exhibit called What Were You Wearing? And it exhibits an outfit that someone was wearing and then a small kind of snippet of something that they say. But it was it's the outfit that a person was wearing when they were assaulted.
• 36:43
  And it's basically saying, the whole exhibit is saying, it doesn't matter what you were wearing. It's not about someone wearing something too skimpy, and that's why they were assaulted. But that's so often what women specifically are asked when they come forward and say, hey, I was assaulted. They say, what were you wearing? Not, I'm so sorry.
• 37:05
  But there's like kids in school uniforms or women wearing their business clothes, like fully covered up head to toe. I'm looking at some options right now, just like athletic wear, basketball shorts. Like, there's no rhyme or reason Mhmm. To what a person's wearing and why they were assaulted. Mhmm.
• 37:31
  I think it's a matter of where they were, the convenience. And often, it's someone that that person knows. Mhmm. And that exhibit started in 2013, but I think it's still touring.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: It's just like we said before, when you teach a bunch of men, you have no self control, particularly religious men. You've taught them all growing up. You have no self control. You are a sexual being. And that's all that you are.
• 38:03
  You have nothing else to offer the world.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: They're told they're powerful without reason. And they're told they're sexual. Mhmm. And then they take out that power in a violent way Right. On someone else.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Right. Another quote that I found, and this is from a YouGov poll. She said, we're scared of all of you until we know you. And even after we know you, half the time I'm still scared. But that's so true.
• 38:32
  And it's it is heartbreaking because as a woman, any of you women out there that are listening, you know what I'm talking about. Like, this is not a surprise to you. We all feel this. But if for the men out there that are listening, understand that. Hear that and take that in.
• 38:51
  We're not surface level, like, oh, I kind of have to be aware or whatever. We are legitimately scared to walk down the grocery aisle when you're there, to walk out into a parking lot, to walk past you on the sidewalk. Because we have to be. You are a threat until I know you personally. And how many men do I get to, like, know personally?
• 39:19
  Not all the men I walk past on the sidewalk.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Well, we said this in the last episode. The first thing you learn in gun safety is treat every weapon like it's a loaded weapon. Or if you're in health care, when you go to clean up a room, treat every room like it's covered in blood.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: And then you have
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: to clean every single surface. For women, it's treat every man Mhmm. As if he's a threat so that you don't become a statistic. Mhmm.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: And those microbehaviors too, like, know I keep coming back to that. I don't really like to call them microbehaviors, but I don't I don't know what other Behaviors. Yeah. The nontechnical assault but makes women very uncomfortable behaviors. Know that that's all part of the problem.
• 40:11
  It's all part of the threat. Because when you do those sorts of things and I would say that in my life experience, a massive percentage of the men that I've known have behaved in one of those ways, whether it was towards me or towards someone
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: else. Mhmm.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: When you exhibit those behaviors, that makes me have to look at you and say, he might be a threat. Not necessarily immediately that he is, but he might be a threat. Mhmm. And if you might be a threat, then I have to treat you like you are one. Mhmm.
• 40:48
  And that impacts society. It impacts broader society. Because now we can't interact with each other in a healthy way.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Or specifically, if you're a man of faith and you're hoping to fulfill what God asked you to do, go forth, spread the good news. Now you can't reach over 50% of those people.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Because
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: they view you as threatening. Anything that comes out of your mouth is gonna be, nope, no, thank you. I don't want to interact with you. And unfortunately, we also find a lot of violence in the church. Because men, Christian men, are told they have unprecedented power over women.
• 41:36
  And so we, you and I, Alyssa, have seen so many men, Christian men, be violent that we know personally churches around us who have had big, major problems with men. In Grand Rapids, there was just the stepson of the guy who created Covenant Eyes,
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: I believe.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: That's correct. Was convicted for having child pornography on his phone, and he was trying to reach, like, a 14 year old child. Mhmm. Which what is Covenant Eyes?
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: So Covenant Eyes was an app that was created specifically, I think, for Christian men, but I don't think it had to be Christian men. And it's essentially like a porn blocker. So it stops you from being able to get on certain sites, but then it also has you, I think, assigned, like, a accountability type partner. And that person gets, like, a report emailed to them every so often. I don't know how often.
• 42:40
  And I guess it would flag, like, if you said if you were on certain sites or or whatever. I don't know. And the articles that I read said that the founder of it created it specifically so that his stepsons would not fall into the the sin of porn. Didn't work. And, yeah, I mean, that was Brie and I went to college in Grand Rapids.
• 43:03
  So that hits very close to home.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: I think when we were in college, wasn't there a radio host that got busted too for I think you're right. Yeah. Child pornography in the studio?
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yes. I forgot about that.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: It's everywhere. I mean, we could have countless, countless stories
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: Of these situations. This is why women find men threatening, all men threatening. Mhmm.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: So to ally with us, to be part of the solution instead of the problem, look at all of your personal behaviors. Mhmm. Analyze all of them and say, am I am I perpetuating these problems? Am I only
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: kind and generous to women that I find attractive? Mhmm. Do I say sexist jokes? Do I look a woman up and down? Mhmm.
• 43:58
  Do I stare
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: at her boobs? Do I judge her for what she's wearing? Do I talk about my sex life with her for some unknown reason? Mhmm. That happens all the time too.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Do I tell a woman that she needs to start having babies?
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. It's just it's everywhere. And believe women. It it boils down to that really simply. Believe women.
• 44:21
  Hear women. Fight for women. It doesn't have to be all that complicated. Mm-mm. And if, frankly, if if we could get you all not you all.
• 44:32
  You guys are great. The royal you? The royal broader you even. Oh. Yeah.
• 44:37
  The worldwide you. If that would work, if you just followed those instructions, I don't think we'd need a podcast. We the last seventy seven some odd hours would have been waste. Unfortunately, they have not been. Mhmm.
• 44:53
  Because we're still sitting right here. And if anything, it feels like it's getting worse. Women have to deal with so much more that I think men don't recognize that we're dealing with.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Because of these ideas, because of what we've experienced, because of what we've seen other women experience. And those include things like hyperawareness, modifying behavior, like your route home, Mhmm. Not going the same way home all the time because you don't know who's gonna follow you, dressing differently, the times of day we're comfortable being out. I don't wanna be out after dark because I don't know who's around. I need to make sure that my work shift ends at a certain time because if it's dark in the parking lot and the parking lot's not well lit, I don't know who's gonna be out there.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Or I have to make sure that I go with someone. Like, I have a partner to walk out to my car with Mhmm. Or to the bathroom with at a concert or some larger event. It's such a joke that, like,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: oh, women always go to the bathroom together. Well, ask the question why.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. It's not because I want this girl to sit and hear me pee. No. No. It's because I don't want either of us to get kidnapped Mhmm.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Or worse. Yeah. It's a safety thing. And it always is. Like, you see women go in groups.
• 46:06
  And when we talked about going up and standing with someone in line, that was a safe situation. But the underlying message there is that women stick together because they may feel unsafe. Because I know that when you're standing there alone, you're scanning the room. You know who's where. You know who's behaving strangely.
• 46:31
  I know that. So I wanna come up and help you and keep you safe. It also causes emotional issues. Stress, anxiety, exhaustion, consistent internalized fear. And that impacts how you interact with the world around you.
• 46:46
  Mhmm. It impacts how you interview for jobs, how you speak to coworkers, how you work on projects, especially if you're someone who has dealt with more extreme violence. Mhmm. So I think it's important to say that, yes, in theory, not all men are violent. It's important to acknowledge that here in this space.
• 47:14
  It's not important to acknowledge it on every single post you see on the Internet.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: We'll say it here. Assume it's been set out into the world. You don't need to
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: say it again. We're good. The world knows. Also, understand, what's the motivation behind you saying that?
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Are you trying to devalue what she's saying and what she's experienced? Mhmm. And defend yourself and make it your own story? Or are you genuinely genuinely trying to say like, hey, I don't want it to be all men. Mhmm.
• 47:41
  How can I help? Right.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: The issue is nuanced. It's yeah. Maybe it's not all men. But that's not the important part of the story.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: The important part of the story is that it's enough men. Mhmm. It's enough that we feel unsafe. And that's all you need to know.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Statistically. We already went over it. Like, look at the statistics. Mhmm.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Alright. So just to end on a lightly better, nicer note. Not better, nicer. Call to action. Okay.
• 48:13
  There we go. A call to action.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: That's good. Motivation.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about accountability. So men who are not all men can do things like actively call out harassment, sexism, boundary violations amongst their peers, amongst the Internet. Mhmm. Amongst the global you. Call it out.
• 48:38
  They can also do bystander training intervention or intervention training where you can go into spaces and someone can talk to you about, like, what could you do? Let's train you on how to better react to these situations. Because sometimes you might not have experienced it and so you don't know.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: So talk to someone who has. Whether that's a class, whether it's someone you know personally, like, have that conversation if the woman's comfortable with it
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: and say, what could I do? Or if you feel like going and seeking out that training is not accessible to you, find a YouTube video.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Or TikTok. Yep. They're everywhere. And also holding institutions, including workplace, school, all of it accountable to better behaviors.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: Saying I'm going to fight for better behaviors. Mhmm. Not just in my own world, but in a broader world. I'm gonna teach the people around me how to behave. Mhmm.
• 49:34
  Maybe that's your kids. Maybe you're teaching your kids different. And it's hard to keep teach your kids different things than you were taught. Mhmm. But it's important.
• 49:44
  It's important for how we move forward as a broader society. Women are leaving churches at an absolutely staggering rate. And it's because, broadly, we don't feel safe there.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. When you don't feel heard, understood, and you feel physically unsafe Mhmm. No. I'm not gonna go back there.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: Exactly. So you need to call those places into account. You need to say, no. No. No.
• 50:10
  I see what's going on. Even if she doesn't feel that she can say anything. Or maybe she did. Maybe like so many of us, she did say something, and no one believed her or cared.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: So now you can stand in that gap as an ally. Anyone. Men, women, stand in the gap. Mhmm. Be there.
• 50:30
  Just be an ally to women. Yeah. That's I mean, I think there's there's a lot of things. Like, can look this up. How can I be a better ally?
• 50:38
  Mhmm. And there's many a thing. But those are just some suggestions of things that you can do that would make a big impact. That would show you as a safe person. That would show you that you are not all men.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: Just like respect people. Mhmm. All people, not just men. Women too. And don't treat all of them like everything they do is frivolous and stupid.
• 51:02
  Mhmm.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: How about that? Wouldn't that be lovely? Alright. So next week, we're actually getting a little bit lighter
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: for the next couple of weeks. Mhmm. Because frankly, it's been a
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: lot of heavy episodes, and I need some fun in my life. So next week, we're gonna be talking about because we're getting into spooky season.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: We are in spooky season. I mean, this is a spooky episode.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: True. True. But we're going for more fun spooky,
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: I guess.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: So we're gonna be talking about Mary Shelley, who wrote Frankenstein. Mhmm. And a little bit of her life and her process and the idea of monsters and all that kind of fun stuff. Mhmm. And then the following week, so right before Halloween, the day before Halloween, we are gonna be talking about haunted houses.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: And Alyssa and I are both going to build our well, collectively, we're gonna build one haunted house room by room. Mhmm. And what would be in those rooms? And we're gonna surprise each other with what we think would build a wonderful haunted house. In our own lives.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: So stay tuned for those. We're actually really excited about those.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Mean, they're
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: gonna be so much fun. In the meantime, be nice humans. That's all. That's all I got.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Do you have any advice? Be nice humans.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: That you got that's mine. I get really rude.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: I think specifically women in this situation too, because I feel like that's more of our audience.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: It just is. Mhmm. Stand by each other. Yeah. Listen to each other.
• 52:27
  And be that kind of girl that builds another girl up with outrageous confidence Mhmm. And protects her very fiercely.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And on that note, we will talk to you guys again next week.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye.