Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S5 E29 The Storage Unit of Death - A Tennessee Horror

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S5 E29 The Storage Unit of Death - A Tennessee Horror · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Welcome, Welcome everybody. I know it's been so long.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: I haven't been live in days. Where have I been
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: working on what we're going to be talking about tonight?
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Now you all know where's Lama been and all the les.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: That's where, That's where I've been. Well, hello everyone, and
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of True Crime and Wine Time,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: where we dive in to the most jaw dropping true
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: crime stories. We'll slip in something smooth to take the
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: edge off. So poor Glass, lock your doors and let's
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: uncork the truth behind some of the darkest of crimes.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: And boy do we have one tonight? Oh my goodness. Anyway,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: tonight I have a lovely guess co host with me,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Lady and Gray. Because the lovely Terry true crime is
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: over in Europe. She left us here, said, now I'm
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: manning the ship.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Just a little jillous, just a little jealous.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you for being here with us tonight.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate you having me on. I'm eager to
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: share this case for my little area of Appalachia. Besides,
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: the proper pronunciation is Appalachia. It's never Appalachia? Yeah, is it? Though?
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Is it?
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Is it? Because I don't see a tea in that
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: word anywhere. But I guess you apple atches do as
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: you please, I suppose.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: But okay, well, this case, this is a case of murder,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: and this memberment in a city city literally found it
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: as a hub of railroad tracks running trains in every direction,
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: but now it's truckers on interstate highways delivering goods and
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: contraband to the masses. The murders of two teenagers, Adam
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: and Samantha, and the ensuing trial of the accused, Howard
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: hawk Willis, brought the kind of notoriety to town that
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: no one wants. Fair warning, there will be mocking of
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: this man.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, so much, so much. It's also unfortunate that
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: he has a cool name like Hawk. I know he
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: is not deserving of the names. No, he's not not
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: at all. Well, you guys, before we begin, if you're
• 2:36
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• 2:38
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• 2:41
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• 2:45
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• 2:53
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• 2:59
  Speaker 1: a review, download whatever it says to do, please do
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: as it helps our little pod get noticed. Well, you guys,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: let's talk about what we're drinking real quick before we
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: get into to the story, because it's a special night
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: with a special guest. And I, as I said, may
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: have locked myself in my room for three days working
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: on this. That's exactly what happened. So al will feet
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: picked me up. What is one of my favorite wines
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: and it is a Kennison plum wine. It's a grape
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: wine with natural flavors and a caramel color. Ooh, Mama
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: learns about last Friday we talked about how to make
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: wine for members. If you haven't seen that video yet,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: it was interesting. Now on the label, it says it
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: is inspired by the traditional Japanese beverage um Shoo. Now
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Kenson Plum is richly aromatic and delightfully fruity, with notes
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: of ripe plum, marishino, cherry, and sweet pear. It's a
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: medium body, sweet and refreshingly tangy. And it is twelve
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: percent and trusts me with a story like this one,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna need it. As a matter of fact, I
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: have another bottle, so.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna need it really well. Apparently someone thinks I'm
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Ron Burton because I came in here to my script
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: and I have a note today I'm drinking the blood
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: of my enemies. But actually, although maybe I would be,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: I'm drinking this non alcoholic leers h what is it dry?
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: It says dry London spirit, so it's supposed to be
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: like a I guess it's a black origin. But it's
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: actually makes a nice little mocktail with I've got tonic
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: water and lime with it, and it's pretty tasty, and
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: it's a good option to have on hand with those
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: haughty parties coming up for your designated driver or somebody
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: who maybe wants to offernate their drinks so they didn't
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: get out of hand and still feel like they're blending in.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: So it's actually really nice options.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: It sounds favorite.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: It really is. It's tasty.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Maybe I should add a but what do they call
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: non alcoholic liquors or whatever? I should add that to
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: my mom.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: That is, yeah, stuff to have a non alcoholic spirit,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: that's what that's called.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: I love that. All right, Well, that's great. Congratulations Amos
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: for being a member for fourteen Minds. Oh my gosh,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Amos is drinking a seven Bruce smooth seven coffee drink.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Please sponsor us seven b please, we do like coffee
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: as much as we love wine. Also, happy six month
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: number verse three too wicked ban cheese. So thank you, guys.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: We love our members here. All right, you guys, Now
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: tonight's case, all right, buckle up, Buckle up, because it's
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: going to be a long one, Okay, it is, but
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: I promise you that it is only that way because
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: of all of the twist in turns and moments of
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: what in the fuck that we just couldn't skip over
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: at all, couldn't do it. So we're gonna be here
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: for a while, but I promise you it's constantly moving, okay,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: So if you can't stay for the whole thing, that's okay,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: but you're definitely going to want to watch the rest later.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: As part of the replay crew, also shout out we
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: love you replay crew. And with that, let's get into
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: the story of Howard Hawk Willis Shelby. Are you guys
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: ready for this craziness? Because boy, I wasn't. I wasn't
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: at all. Now. Nestled in the northeast corner of Tennessee
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: lies Washington County, a stretch of rolling hills, misty valleys,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: and history older than the state itself. Here the apple Atchia.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: You're welcome, leading Grace. Yes, I love learning new things
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: right Appalachia Mountains, kriilled, small towns where stories linger longer
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: than the morning fog. Virginia sits just twenty miles to
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: the north North Carolina, thirty to the east, and between
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: them an area that's seen the best and worst of
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: what humanity can do.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Okay. Boone Lake is the beating heart of the community,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: a man made reservoir surrounded by wooded hills, quiet neighborhoods.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: It's named for Daniel Boone, or, as he wrote it,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Daniel Boone. That's da n apostrophe L B o N
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: And it's local treasure. There's an actual Boone's Creek Creek
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: named after him, Daniel Boone High School, and the school
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: mascot is the Trailblazers in his honor. Around here, his
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: name is everywhere.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I can see that a so that picture of boom,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's gorgeous.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: It's a nice lake.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Net is gorge well. On speaking of this lake, on
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: any summer weekend, you'll find a lake alive with laughter
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: and engines, fishermen casting lines before sunrise, families water skiing
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: under the afternoon sun, and teenagers flocking to a sandy
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: stretch of a shoreline they call boom beach. Restaurants and
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: marinas dot the edge, and there are places where locals
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: tie up their boats, grab dinner, maybe listen to a
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: live band as twilight turns the water gold. I'll tell
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: you what, there's really not a cooler feeling than being
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: on a boat and taking it up to a restaurant
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: with a docks. We have some lakes around here, Yeah,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: on that before and it's just like it's so weird.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: But also it's like entrance, but then it's really not
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: because you know half the people there do the same things.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: It's like and then they're all just staring at you
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: as you're trying to navigate the boat out of the doc.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: But it's so funny.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Michael says his house is literally on Boons the Wilderness
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Trail in Kentucky. Well, I love that. That is awesome.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Now listen. This place is amazing, right, It's the kind
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: of place where life feels simple and safe. But on
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: October eleventh, two thousand and two, that illusion was shattered.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: On October eleven, two thousand and two, it was a cool,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: aut of morning when Luther Earl whitson a local fisherman.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: He's just along the quiet edge of Boon Light near
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Winder Park, a family friendly spot between Johnson City and Bristol.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: The park is usually full of kids playing soccer, parents
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: at the batting cages, dog chasing tennis balls into the lake.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: I mean tons of fun right well. As Luther drifted
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: near a boat ramp, something strange caught his eye. A
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: pale shape bobbing in the water. From a distance, it
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: looked almost like a mask, maybe a Halloween direction. This
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: was October, after all, However, the fishermen had stumbled not
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: on debris, but on the beginning of a nightmare that
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: would haunt Boone Lake forever.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: As the boat grew closer, the truth became undeniable. It
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: wasn't a mask. It was a human head, sever pale
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: and floating just beneath the surface. The heart been like
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: didn't stop with the discovery of the severed head the merry.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Next morning, on October twelfth, the water gave up another secret.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: That's Saturday, a word Brownlow. Baker was taking part in
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: a local fishing tournament when something strange drifted into his view.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: At first glance, it again looked like debris, maybe a glove,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: But as his boat drew closer, the truth surfaced. It
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: was a human hand. Now Baker's instincts kicked in and
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: he grabbed his fishing net and scooped it carefully from
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: the water, carrying it to shore near a bridge, where
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: he met with sheriff's deputies. The same calm hands that
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: had reeled in bass and carpet now held evidence of
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: a brutal, brutal killing.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: By now, investigators were scrambling. This was probably something new
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: to the I don't think it's happened before. Once a
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: married head was shocking enough, But two discoveries just a
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: day apart told then they weren't dealing with a boating accident.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: This was methodical. Someone had dismembered a human being in
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: scattered the remains across Moon Lake.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Later that afternoon, a Washington County Sheriff's apartment bus rolled
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: slowly down a lakeside road. Behind the wheel was Jerry Taylor,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: a bus driver assigned to transport inmates in the department's
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: community service program. His crew of orange vested men stepped out,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: boots crunching over the muddy shoreline near de Vault Bridge.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Within twenty minutes, one of the inmates called out, there
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: was another severed hand, two hands, one had one lake
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: and still no name.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, not far away, Isaac Nichols had brought his daughter
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: a nephew, out for a quiet afternoon of fishing. She'd
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: have been an ordinary day, a family by the water
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: holes in the sand, But when his daughter wandered along
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: the shore, she spotted something something small, round and pale,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: a piece of human skull about five inches wide. When
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: officers arrived, Nichols handed over the fragment and it was
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: logged by booking Officer Dwayne Cohen at the Washington County
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Share Department. Another piece of a horrifying puzzle that seemed
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: to grow darker with every passing hour.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Now, aside from the facts that Howard Hawk Willis was
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: fifty one at the time of the October two thousand
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: and two murders, he was a truck driver. He'd been
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: married a few times and had a daughter. There isn't
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: much else about him that we could find, except that
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: this wasn't the first time, nor the second that someone
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: in his proximity had gone missing. Oh.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: His first wife, twenty five year old Nancy Deborah winneger
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: bar Willis, who went by Debbie, was last seen alive
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: on December twenty third, nineteen eighty six. She went to
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: visit her family in Yates City, Virginia, which is just
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: across the state line from Tennessee. Like that twenty miles
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: from where I am. For Christmas holidays. She was supposed
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: to return to her home in Ringo, Georgia, but she
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: never contacted her family again, which was very uncharacteristic of Debbie.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Now, Howard said the last time he saw her was
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: when she told him she was leaving and he took
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: her to a bus station in Chattanooga, Tennessee. The couple
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: at the time were building a home in Bradley County, Tennessee,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: but Nancy disappeared before they could move there. Now, we
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: hear that excuse all the time, she's leaving me. I
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: don't know what happened. She took her stuff and left. Okay,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: she sure, buddy. Sadly, though, Debbie has never been found
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: and no one has ever been charged with her disappearance.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Though Willis considered a very big suspect and I agree.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I agree, I agree crazy.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I think by the end of this we can kind
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: of gotch what happened.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: To several people. Yes, a few years before the mergers
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: of Adam Smantha, Willis had a run in with the law,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: and not just any old law enforcement, but the FEDS.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: In the spring of nineteen ninety nine, Willis meant Kenneth
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Hart Adams. Adams helped broke radeal that would make Willis
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of money. All Willis had to do was
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: drive his rig to South Texas to pick up a
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: load of limes.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: That's it, just some limes, the limes.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: No, it wasn't just the limes. The red was the
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: seventeen hundred pounds of cocaine.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Shit wasn't of cocaine, budd He.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Once he up the limes, Willis just had to drive
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: it to a loading dock in Brooklyn, New York and
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: leave it there. And for doing the delivery, some guy, na.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, do we have lady and Grace freeze on us.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: I think so oh oh, no, Momento, I think she froze.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: That's okay, you know what, I'll just take over while
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: she either disappears and comes back or something like that.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: All right, So, and for doing the delivery, some guy
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: named Jake would pay Willis ninety thousand dollars. Let me
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: do that. To prove the deal was legit, Adams gave
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Willis twenty thousand dollars up front when he arrived. Hold On,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: there we go. When he arrived at the meeting spot
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, Willis waited and waited, but the man he
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: was supposed to meet never showed up. He tried calling
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: the number he'd been given, but there was no answer.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: So he stayed in his truck for three days, with
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: the lingering smell of rotting limes and bricks of cocaine
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: worth millions of dollars. Alicao found her way back there.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: There she is, he begg That's okay, it happens. We
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: worked with it. Reflexible, Okay. Now, he finally got a
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: call from the man, who then told him he needed
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: to move the truck to an area off of the
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: New Jersey Turnpike, which was notorious for road pirates, which
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I loved the term.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Road pirates, road pirates.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: When Willis arrived, the guy was waiting for him. He
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: took Willis's keys, told him to sit tight and that
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: mystery man would call him tomorrow, even put him up
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: for that night in a trucker motel. But that call
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: never came, and he never came because the mystery man
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: made a big, huge mistake. Not a time you want
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: to be making mistakes with seventeen pounds of cocaine.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: I really want to know who this mystery man is.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Apparently he had parked the rig too close to someone
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: else's loading dock, who called the police to have them
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: move it. The police ran the plates and they traced
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: back to Willis. So they called the phone number attached,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: and his wife, Wilda was home. Ah Wilda. They told
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: her that they found her husband's truck, but not him,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: and they needed her permission to open it. Our concerns
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: were not about her husband that will be later, or
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: about the enormous amount of cocaine she didn't know existed. No,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: it was about the lines she was afraid they would foil.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I love you, Wilda.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: A few days later, Willis had talked to Wilda, who's
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: told him what happened, and he took a train back home.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: But three days later he took a plane to Newark,
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: New Jersey, and was immediately rested.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: But Howard Hawk Willis had already decided one thing. He
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: wasn't going down alone. He kind of deal with federal
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: prosecutors that he would give them everything they needed against
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: his co conspirator, Kenneth Hart Adams in exchange they'd go
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: easy on him and give him fail which they did
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: on a two hundred thousand dollars bond. But in April
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: two thousand and two, none of that mattered because Adams
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: took a plead deal before Willis could ever have the
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: chance to testify against him.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: Oh no, no, Well, because Willis was out on bond,
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: the drug smuggling smuggler suspected wife killer promised the court
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: he'd chickened regularly with federal officers that he'd returned for
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: sentences in the fall.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Across my work, the promise has meant nothing to Howard Willis.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Prosecutors weren't going to give him a life sentence, but
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: to him, any life on the out constantly spent looking
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: over his shoulder was better than one waiting for him
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: behind bars.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: But staying on the run takes money, and money was
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: something Willis just didn't have. Well, well, I think we
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: don't wait. Took their job then, right, right. Ever, since
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: this federal arrest two years earlier, things had gone from
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: bad to worse. The court case strained him, his second
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: marriage fell apart, and by now he was completely broke.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: He couldn't leave the country either, as a federal fell
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: in his name was a red flag on every watch list.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: He couldn't ask for help, not even from family, because
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: his mother, aunt and uncle had already put their homes
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: on the line to post his bail.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Crazy. And as for his stepfather, San Thomas, that was
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: a dead end two And as a matter of fact,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Sam Thomas had been reported missing just days before the
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: young Christmer newlyweds. Interesting. Now, I'm not just sping cheeky
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: when I bring this up, but it is important to
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: know that Thomas wasn't just Howard Willis's stepdad. He was
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: also ex wife will DOA's remember her uncle. No, no, Mama,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: put the banjo away. Don't get it out. It's not
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: appropriate right now.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, actually I didn't even that didn't even make any
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: register with me. Oh well, I'm like, oh well, whatever.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: You're like, that sounds normal for timas what.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: People next door now. Before their names were ever the news,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Adam Christmer and Samantha Limming were just two teenagers trying
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: to figure out who they were at Richland High School
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: in Georgia. Adam didn't stand out much. He wasn't the
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: last clown or the football star. He was the kind
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: of kid you passed in the hallway every day and
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: never really notice. He enjoyed hunting and being out in nature.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Now he had a small scar on his right cheek
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: left over from a cis removal, and another faint mark
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: on his temple where a new one was forming. On
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: the other side of his face, a tiny bump sat
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: under his skin, a forgotten babe from a backyard game
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: gone wrong. They were the kind of imperfections you'd only
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: see if you were really looking, and most people weren't.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: But Samantha Foster Lemming noticed. She was younger by a year,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: a little bolder, a little louder. Sometime after ninth grade,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: she and Adam found each other.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: All Adam's family couldn't check the feeling it. Something about
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: the relationship was off. At first there words were the
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: normal kind two kids growing up, too fast, too close.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: But then came Howard Hawk Willis. He was older, too old,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: and from the moment he entered their lives, everything about
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: him felt wrong.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: It's believed that Willis came into their lives because of
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: his daughter, Kelly. Samantha's two older brothers, Daniel and Richard
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Foster had a friend, Kelly Willis, who later befriended Samantha.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Before the couple got their own place, they actually lived
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: with Kelly in a trailer where her father, Howard Willis,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: also seemed to live as well. That part was a
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: little confusing, so he might have been like an there's
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of people, a lot of houses, a lot
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: of states. We did our best.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: There is and there's a lot of going back and forth. Yes,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: it became clear to everyone around them that the relationship
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: between Samantha and Willis wasn't paternal, but rather pretor. Every
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: time Willis appeared with Samantha at the Chrismer home, Adam's
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: family felt the air change. The way he looked at
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: her was possessive and territorial, and the way He looked
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: at Adam like he was competition, not company. It was weird, and.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: It was weird, and people's suspicions were not off. Several
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: months after the murders, investigators would uncover a set of
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: photographs developed at a CBS in Johnson City. In those
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: images were two young women, one of them unmistakenly Samantha
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Posts in ways no teenage girl should be, and the
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: photos were taken by Willis himself. The photos spoke of
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: volumes about what Willis might have wanted for Samantha, and
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: maybe how far he was willing to go to get it.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: But Adam was seventeen. He wasn't a boy anymore, and
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: he wasn't about to be told who he could dude
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: or couldn't love. Against his family's protests, he dropped out
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: of school, just like Samantha and started splitting his time
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: between Willis's mother's house in Johnson City, Tennessee, and Willis's
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: place in Chickamauga, Georgia.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Well, it broke his parents heart, but they told him,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: They told themselves that it was temporary, that Adam would
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: come home once he realized who Willis really was. They
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: couldn't stop him from seeing the girl. They couldn't stop
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: him from following that man. But there was one thing
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that they could stop.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: When Adam and Samantha started talking about marriage, his family
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: drew a hard line. They refused to sign the papers,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: refused to give their consent before his eighteenth birthday. It was,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: as they later said, the only authority they had left.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Which, yes, good parents they were. Hell it went out.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: No one knows why it was so important to Willis
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: that the two teenagers got married. Maybe it was control,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: and maybe it was an obsession. Whatever his reasons, one
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: thing is clear. Willis had a plan. Adam's parents may
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: have drawn their line, but he knew a way around that.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Willis told the young couple that there was a loophole
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: in Georgia law that allowed miners to marry without parental
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: consent if the girl was pregnant. Now Samantha wasn't, but
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: she had a friend who was.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: So. Under Willis's direction, Samanth approached her friend and asked
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: her for a year and sample. She took it to
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: a local doctor, claiming it was her own. Since it
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: came back positive and the doctor had no reason to
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: think it wasn't hers, they signed the paperwork that would
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: allow the wedding to go forward. Yeah.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: On August twenty or two thousand and two, afternoon, Adam
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Chrismere and Samantha Limming walked hand in hand into the
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Walker County Courthouse in Lafayette, Georgia. They were young, nervous,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: a little defiant. I'm barely out of a childhood, but
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: already convinced they were in love and ready for forever. Now.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: One thing I didn't add in our notes that I
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: learned I forgot to put in there was that not
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: only did Adam and Samantha get married, but so did
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: his daughter Kelly. And oh gosh, I forget her husband,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: seem Bradley. Maybe he comes up later, But they all
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: got married together on the same day at the courthouse together.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: It was a group wedding, you guys, of teenagers.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: The devil wedding of teenagers.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, yes, yes, now, But just waiting just a few
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: steps behind them, silent and watchful, was Howard hawk Willis,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: the man who before for long would destroy them both.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: This is creepy mm hmm.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: By October, the couple had recently moved in their own
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: prayer in Rossville, Georgia, which was about ten minutes across
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: the state line from Chattanooga, Tennessee, and only a few
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: miles from Adam's mom, Teresa Chrismer, who lived on Lookout Mountain, Georgia.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Even though Adam and his parents weren't saying Ada Hi,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Adam's always called Teresa every two or three days. Now.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: The last known interactions the couple had were sadly with
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: each of their mothers. On October fourth, Patty Lemmings, Samantha's mother,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: had dinner with Adam and Samantha at Pizza Hut. She
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: said they didn't seem as if anything was wrong or
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: that they were in danger. Samantha told her that they
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: would be heading to Johnson City for a few days
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: with Willis to do some work for Willis's mom. Adam
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: told Samantha Howard said let's go, and the couple left
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: in a red jeep that Patty thought belonged to Howard Willis,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: who she saw was driving. Look at that old ass
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Pizza Hut. I know that old pizza huh and.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: That salad bar and those personal pizzas.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, the nineties and odds were amazing.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Time I go back to the eighties we had. Two
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: days later, on not cover six six, Teresa Christmer had
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: received a phone call from Adam where he sounded up
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: stat and crying, and he told her that he wanted
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: to come home. I just have one more thing to
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: do for Howard. He added, it was the last time
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: she ever heard from her son. Both Teresa and Patty
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: would try to contact Adam and Samantha, but all attempts
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: were fruitless. Teresa specifically had a secret contact number for
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Adam and left a voicemail looking for him.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: A few days later, Teresa got a phone call from
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: a Bradley detective who was looking for Adam, but most
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: likely inquiring about a local missing elderly man. And that
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: is when Teresa had to do the unthinkable, and she
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: filed a missing person's report for Adam. Quote. I just
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: had a terrible, terrible feeling. I thought he was in
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: trouble or something bad had happened to him.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: On October eleven, the secret contact number called Teresa, but
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: it wasn't Adam on the line. It was Howard Willis Hm.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: He mighty surprised. She asked him if he knew where
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: Adam was, and Willis Tohart The last time he had
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: seen Adam was in Georgia at their trailer. While she
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: was on the phone with Willis, she told her husband
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: to go to a neighbor's house to call the Walker County,
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Georgia Sheriff's office and inform them of the contact with Willis.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Teresa said that while on the phone with him, she
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: could hear two win men talking in the background. I
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: think I know it's true women words.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: I do too, and she.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Heard Willis tell him shut up. She described his demeanor
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: on the telephone though, as cool as a cucumber.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Remember Willis's missing stepdad, Sam Thomas. The investigation was running
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: parallel to what was going on with Adam and Samantha,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: but it took no time at all to start connecting
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: the dots. In the Mountains, people tend to live quiet,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: isolated lives, and Sam Thomas did too. That's why it
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: would be more than a month before anyone even realized
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: he was gone.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Now, what exactly happened inside Sam Thomas's home on Old
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Lead Mine Valley Road is still something investigators can only
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: piece together from what little was left behind. Blood on
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: the stairs, a few smudged footprints, a handful of fingerprints
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: under a fluoroscopic light. The house told quite a story,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: one of violence, precision, and intent. Authorities believe that seventy
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: three year old Sam Thompson Thomas never saw it coming.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: He was ambushed, most likely inside of his home, shot
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: and killed. Whoever did this wasn't just trying to kill him,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: though they were erasing him. Investigators say it was all
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: part of the plan to make sure the body couldn't
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: be identified if it ever turned up.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Barley, October two thousand and two, Howard Willis was starting
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: to unravel his New York court. Night was creeping closer
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: and reality was setting in. People were going to start
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: asking questions. Sam Thomas advanished just somehow. His credit cards
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: were still very much alive.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, what this guy?
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: I know?
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: And you know what, Willis was right to worry because
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: detectives were closing in. It started with a phone call.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: A relative of Sam Thomas told investigators. So she tried
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: calling his cell phone weeks after he went missing, and
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: someone answered, it wasn't Sam, No, it was Howard Hawk.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Willis look at him just answering all these phones.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Because of course it was him. Of course He's like everywhere.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Now go ahead, sorry, that one moment, that one slip
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: cracked the case wide open. From there, investigators followed a
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: paper trail. They had discovered that Willis was spending the
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: dead man's money. He was using Sam Thomas's name and
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: credit cards, trying to build himself a false identity so
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: he could vanish completely and maybe even flee the country.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, sure, that's less Ham's like to me. But
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: now surveyllage footage from a Chattanooga Walmart tells the story.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Mm hm, yep, guys Walmart. Because of course, now, two
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: separate visits September fifth and September seventh, show Willis at
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: the register, racking up over one thousand dollars in purchases
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: on Sam Thomas's cards. But what caught investigator's attention wasn't
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: just the transactions. It was who was standing beside him
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: in both videos. Right there next to Willis is seventeen
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: year old Adam Christmer.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: What detectives in Bradley Kenley were still putting together the
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: pieces of Sam Thomas's murder. They knew there were gaps
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: in the timeline and answered questions about what exactly happened and.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: When investigators didn't know how or if Adam and Samantha
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: were involved, but but they did believe that the couple,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: at the very least had to have known a lot
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: of the Chrisly details. The young couple was naive, trusting,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: desperate for belonging, exactly the kind of people Willis could
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: bend to his will. But now they were a problem,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: even a risk.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: On October eighth, Willis voluntarily went to the station and
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: was interviewed for the first time about his missing elderly
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: step dad. He was actually supposed to come in on
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: October fourth for a whole different matter, but told Detective
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Seanda if all he could not come in that.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Day a suspicious hmmm in trusting No.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Investigators did ask him if he knew the whereabouts of
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Adam and Samantha. He said that he had last seen
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: them on October fourth, and he thought they were possibly
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: in Georgia. Was enough yet to charge him with murder,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: but it was enough to reel me in for the
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: credit card fraud and for breaking the terms of his
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: federal bail.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Oh no, so sayah not now. On October eleventh, Bradley
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: County officers showed up in Johnson city with an a restaurant.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Now it was unrelated to the missing kids, but at
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: least on paper it was. They found Willis out of
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Aunt Marie's house, just behind his mother's place. In the driveway,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: two jeeps sat waiting, one blue, one red. Just a
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: few hours after Willis's arrest, fisherman Luther Earl Whiston would
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: find the head of a young man like you, guys,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: these timelines in days are so like like so much
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: is happening each day in like the span of two weeks.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: It's crazy, it's crazy. Two days light. Someone from an
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: East Tennessee law enforcement agency contacted Teresa Christmer and asked
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: her for a description of any unique physical features of
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Adam's head or face. She told them about the cysts
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: and about the baby and Betty in his cheek. Little
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: did she know that she had just identified part of
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: her young son's remains. Now the question was where was
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: the rest of him? And where the heck was Samantha.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: So heartbreaking? M H, I hate this story. I hate
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: this guy. I know. From the jail, Willis made several
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: phone calls to his mother, Emma Betty Hawk Willis. She
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: goes by Betty so we're gonna call her Betty, Betty,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Betty A lot about Betty. The calls were monitored, asked,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: y'all calls always are, and during one of them, Betty
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: mentioned something about a storage unit. Before she could finish
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: the thought, though, Willis cut her off. Shut up, he snapped,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: got a bunch of idiots.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Detectives didn't need to hear anything else. They started calling
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: every sales storage facility in Johnson City and turna bingo.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Two days before his arrest on October ninth, Betty had
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: rented a storage year at a twenty four hour facility
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: in town.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Now that's it. Yeah, that's it. Right there there it is.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: I was just there the other day. You took that picture.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: According to the manager, it was Willis who called about
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: the rental first, but he'd been told his mother had
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: to be the one to sign for it. So Betty
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: showed up, filled out the paperwork, and dropped off a
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: check for fifty five dollars in the lock box. Don't worry,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: You're the good. You're the good. Betty's Betty Ross. You
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: are a good, good one.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: You're the good Betty.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: You're a good Betty.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: That check was written on her account. Betty H. Willis,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: her sister Marie Holmes, whose house we saw the picture
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: of and where Willis was found, was listed as the
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: emergency contact, and in a twist of surprised exactly no one,
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: the check bounced. Yeah, four days later for insubvision funds.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: So what do we learn here in class? If your
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: son's a suspected murder and you ran him a storage
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: unit on the day of the crime, congratulations, you just
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: earned yourself a nice shiny accessory after the fact.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Charge Can it resist? I was so good I had
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: to press the button. I had to press the button.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: Quick.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Question though, I've noticed, because this is a Southern case,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: I'm obviously not. But you know, is that everybody goes
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: by like two surnames. What is that about? Is that
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: something y'all do down there?
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: Well, some people go by two first names, like Betty,
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Sue or Sure. You know.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: I noticed everybody keeps all of their names, and I
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, my goodness, guys.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: And you really know you're in trouble when your mama
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: says them. Also, if you have three or four, you
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: know she'll never get down saying your name.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Awesome. I was like, this is kind of weird, but okay.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Now back to the storage unit. You guy there. When
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: law enforcement officers learned about the rented storage unit, police
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: officers went to the unit and found it padlocked because
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: of course, however, the smell of decay was clear, and
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: officers saw maggot activity at the crack where the door
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: met the concrete.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: I would die. Maggots are on the level of clowns
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: and dolls. Fight me.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, thank you.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: M The storage unit investigators found what would become the
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: centerpiece of this horrifying case.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Two beige, fifty gallon rubber made containers covered with a
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: blue tarp. On top of the tarp were a hammer,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: a hatchet, and a pair of scissors. The containers themselves
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: were tied tightly with a yellow nylon rope. Nearby on
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: the floor sat two large plastic fuel cans filled with
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: kerosene and a plastic bag containing five pop top air
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: freshener cans rested on the containers. Really nice containers, but.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: They both not been tied tightly enough to keep the
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: maggots inside.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: I don't really understand what the point was of tying them.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, those are good containers.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: Green ticking instigators from the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation carefully
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: collected fingerprint samples from everything, the tarp, the tools, even
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: the container, even the containers. One fingerprint later matched to
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: Willis's right thumb found on the tarp would connect him
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: ircrivocably to the scene. Oh look, ye oh yeah.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Now inside the containers, the full horror was revealed in
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: one a female body and the other a male without
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: head or hands. Both were wrapped in layers of fabric
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: blankets and bits of carpet. The male body was treaated
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: in a black coat with a distinctive red plaid flannel lining.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: That's creepy and that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: get two capital murder charges?
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes it is. I love learning new things here.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting. I like it. Forensic entomologists would
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: later know insects too. The container with the female body
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: had live flower I'm going to pull up penalope, Garcia.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Is it gone yet? But not you by, while the
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: male container had only Pubui. Samples were carefully collected from
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: each container. Experts would later use these to estimate the
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: timeline of the murders. Evans would help reconstruct exactly when
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: these young lives were taken.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, y'all remember this. It's like two thousand and two,
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: which I think would have been like the early seasons
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: of CSI, the original, the biggest one.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that the whole fly maggot gestation thing
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: was definitely on an episode of CSI I saw around this.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Time, yet more than one.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Well, I only could have watched it when I was
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: in high school, which was at during this four years here,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: So okay, I don't know if it was before or
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: after this event, and maybe they used I don't know anyway,
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: just thrown them out. There's some throwbacks.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Now. Officials later investigated local retailers who sold the type
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: of container in which the bodies were found. They found
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: and bought an identical container from the Johnson City Walmart.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Because of course Walmart's involved. It's everywhere in Chattanooga, in
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: Johnson City, and I don't even want to go anywhere
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: else everywhere.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Now. A loss prevention employee at Walmart researched the sales
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: history at the store for that particular storage container store
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: record to reflect that. On October seventh, two thousand and two,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: at ten twenty nine in the morning, someone bought six
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: pop top style cans of air freshener at of the
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: same type found in the storage unit.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: Later that day, at three point fifty one pm, someone
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: bought one fifty gallen river May container, a hatchet, and
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: a particular brand of tennis shoes. The tennis shoes were
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: the same brand as those worn by Willis on the
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: day of his arrest.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: Hmmm, I don't know a lot of stuff going on
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: to Walmart, Michael says. The body Farm in Tennessee is
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: where they study insect activity on condavers is wild af
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: I agree.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: We need a road trip to the body farm.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: I am not going, are you. I'm not doing it.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: How far way is it from you not doing it?
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Not doing it? Don't talk me into it. Actually, the
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, the body farm does amazing work, right, That's
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: why thanks to the work they do and the people
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: who donate their bodies as science, it's helped solve lots
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: of murders. Right, but no, thank you. All right. It's
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: the one part of death for me though, like it's
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: I can't I don't like to think about that part.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: Everything else I'm vine with, but like what happens.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: After afterwards is well, what do you why do you
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: think I don't want the may it?
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean it's the circle of life, you know
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: it is. But no, thank you, I'm good.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Now the autopsy reports revealed what had really happened to
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Adam and Samantha now. Samantha's body was found nude, gagged
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: and her hands bound together with zip ties. More zip
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: ties secured her feet. Her body should bruise on her torso,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: right leg, shoulder, and both feet. She had several marks
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: showing struggle or restraint or both, meaning she was tied
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: up for a very long time. Toxicology tests also found
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: benzo diazepine and her stomach and liver, a drug that
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: would have sedated her or made her compliant, made it
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: easier for someone to control her. And then two gunshot
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: wounds to the back of the head. Just horrible. She's
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: only sixteen.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Adam's autopsy told a different kind of horror. He was
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: still dressed in cargo shorts, his body wrapped in a
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: comforter after being dismembered. His head and hands were missing,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: and his legs had been cut clean through the bone
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: just to make him fit inside the plastic container. There
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: was no blood where the cuts were made, meaning Adam
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: was already dead when the dismemberament began. One bullet, when
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: entering from under his chin, had ended his life.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: Hey, Savage, I missed you. I guess you'll forget, but
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know. If you saw his comment leg.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Then all of them, no, would not leave with it. Yeah,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: you have to get the gay out of the ditch man.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Now. The States forensic etymologist, an expert on insect activity,
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: excuse me, studied the larvae and pupet found inside each container.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Was she discovered established a haunting timeline. Sorry Adam had
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: died first. The flies on his body had matured to
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: the one to four day old pupe stage, while the
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: flies on Samantha's body were only in the larvae feeding stage,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: meaning about thirty six hours separate the two deaths.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: Based on insect growth patterns and environmental data, and I
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: just believe I'm glad somebody has that job and I
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: don't have to do it, the estimate was chillingly precise.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Adam's death likely occurred between October fifth and October eighth,
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: two thousand and two. Samantha's followed between October seventh and
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: October twelfth, the forensic anthropologist, doctor R. Ped Bass confirmed it.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: Through decompositional analysis, Adam's liver showed a more advanced stage
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: of decay, reinforcing the entomologist's findings.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: So from the time that Willis was arrested, there was
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: a police presence outside of his mother, Betty's home, and
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: when Adam's head was found later that same night, search
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: warrants were executed on both Betty and aunt Marie's house,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: with more occurring over the following weeks. So let's about
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: what was observed and found by investigators that we believe,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: by the way, was all found in Betty's place. I don't, lady,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: and we're gonna find anything to like super confirm what
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: came from where, But based on chargos, it seemed like
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: we deduced it to mostly being Betty's home.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: I think Marie just had the misfortunate of living backyard
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: neighbor with her sister, and she knew some other stuff.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: I think first, the house smelled real bad, especially in
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: the garage. Oh look at that. There was an enormous
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: amount of debris on the carpet, including white paint stains
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: and glass fragments. Those glass shards would be identical to
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: glass shards collected from carpet that was inside the container
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: that held Samantha's body. Flies and flylaar Bi were present
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: on the living room floor. Look at that place. Not
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: a surprise. We already know why that's important. One area
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: of the living room carpet had a large bleach spot.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Super nice, suspicious.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: No. In the dining room and hallway portions of the
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: carpet were haphazardly cut and had been removed. We all
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: have I guess and what that means. A pillow case
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: with a yellow and tan floor pattern was found, which
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: was identical to a pillow case found inside the container
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: with Samantha's body. A black nil on rope found inside
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: the house was consistent with the texture and appearance of
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: the rope tied around Adam's body.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: Right, if you think that's all, Nope, there's more. He
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: used to watch. A fabric found beneath the garage door
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: was consistent in appearance with the jacket found with Adam's body.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: You remember that red flannel we talked about. That's what
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: we're talking about now. A singular one pop top air
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: freshener that was the same type brand in scent as
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: the other five air fresheners found in the storage units. Okay,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: you know where that last one went. A red Jeep.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: While the inside of the house was definitely not clean
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: and disgusting, the jeep was extremely so. In fact, the
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: carpeting was still damp. Although it was clean, there was
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: still a foul odor inside. However, after testing, nothing in
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: the jeep was linked to Willis or the victims. I mean,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: I imagine when you clean stuff, stuff comes back as inconclusive.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: More so was in never But that's the only clean
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: thing on this property was not jeeps. So that's suspicious.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: It makes you wonder about that jeep.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: Right, if Betty can't keep her house clean, sure as
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: hell clean clean.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: And lastly, found three cigarette butts, each containing DNA that
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: either matched female offspring of Patty Lemming, Samantha's mother and
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: by the way, she was the only daughter or male
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: offspring of Teresa Christmer Adam's mother. So both the kids
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: DNA bron Well, we assume it is exactly deduction tells
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: us exactly. I mean, that's exactly who they belonged to.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: It's so long too. Lastly, behind Betty's house. A nearer
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: neighbors outbuilding an unloaded reson a seven point sixty five
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: five automatic pistol laid in the grass with three unfired
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: thirty two caliber bullets laying on the ground beside it.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: The gun was one of World War Born era of
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Spanish origin, so it's very old. The neighbor, Larry Hendrix,
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: told investigators that wasn't his and he had never seen it.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's an old ass gun. It just outside
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Willy Nillo.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: World War One. It's over one hundred years old now,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: I mean it was almost one hundred years old then, yeah, yeah.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: Now in the garage, a box of Winchester thirty two
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: caliber ammunition in a paper bag was sitting on top
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: of a dresser. There were unique bunter marks on the
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: bullets found in the yard that were identical to the
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: bullets in the Winchester box. Ballistics testing compared the sample
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: bullets fired from the recovered pistol matched the bullet recovered
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: from Samnanthus body. You guys, they had found the murder
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: weapon out in the yard. Paul Willy Nilly out in
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: the yard.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: It's out in the yard. I don't know who put
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: it there, had it got there? But there we go.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, even I can see that's a man. I
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: can see. Investigators had already collected a buttload of evidence,
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, wouldn't need any more to cure a conviction.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: But luckily for the victims, investigators and us here at
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: True Crime and wind Huh Cower Hawk, Willis did not
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: know how to keep his mouth shut.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: M M, thank goodness, Team Dean Savage, Team Dean. Now
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: we already know that investigators were listening in on his
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: geo house calls, and that's how they learned about the
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: storage unit. You'll soon see that he gave them all
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: the probable cause on a silver platter. So let's talk
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: about the other dumb shit that was talked about on
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: the phone in the first week after his arrest, shall we.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Warrants had to be literally like the easiest warrence to write.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: People monitor for going to Oh my god, I can't
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: believe he's in this. The morning after his arrest, Willis
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: told his mother Betty, to do the things he'd already
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: told her to do and to grab some are fresher
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: for that stinking house.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: Sir, for breezes good. But that that's not that good.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: No way.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: When he found out that the police had told his
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: blue jeep, Willis brushed it off. They're wasting their time.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: He told her there's nothing in that car, never has been.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: But a day later, during a call with his aunt Marie,
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: she mentioned that his ex wife, Wilda Wilda knew he
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: had been using the blue jeep, knew he hadn't been
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: using the blue jeep at all, He had been driving
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: the red one. And that little detail turned out to
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: be very important.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: You'll get a search, Warts, You'll get a search Warts.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: Everybody gets a search. Warts with an idiot. Oh my gosh,
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: you guys, you think the word vomit would stop? But no, no,
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: not at all.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: No.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: The next day and another call between Willis and Mama
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Dearest Betty, she brought up moving the furniture, which she
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: said was padlocked. Willis asked because of the check, and
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: Betty said she didn't have the fifty five dollars to
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: take care of it. What you don't have fifty five
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: dollars to take care of a place you put two
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: dead bodies?
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: What you better find that fifty five dollars right.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: Now and take a rocket scientist to figure out the
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: mother's son duo. We're referring to the storage unit that
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: contained the bodies of Adam and Samantha Chrismer like, what
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: kind of what kind of conversation is that? I cannot
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: even Well, you're.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: Just moving furniture, nothing, don't be alarmed about.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: Well, that is the beast, well the best. Both both
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: are accurate, and they Bradley County was playing Oprah pretty
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: much everybody she didn't searched in here.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: The day after that, Betty told Willis that police had
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: searched both her home and Aunt Marie's. Shocking, how did
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: you I mean? And look, we already went over what
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: they found. She said that they taking her red jeep
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: some clothing, and that she thought she might be charged
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: as an assistory to murder. Oh, girl, you most certainly are.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: Then she told him that police had found two severed
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: hands in a head and that they've been identified by
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Adam's mother. Betty also added, I'm not taking anything over
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: there to the storage shed. I haven't been back because
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: I thought we were followed. When Willis started to snap back,
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: would you shut she said, cut him off. They already know.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: No shit, Betty, Right, Michael, could you imagine buying that
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: on storage Oh my gosh.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: That happened on an episode of Criminal Minds. They didn't
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: find a body, but they found others.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's some crime stories where that
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: has happened. Yet there was some on death row. They
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: were they were children, sadly were found in storage units
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: and gross.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: Hey, your bill.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: Right, because that's exactly what But I like how she
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: was like, they already know already. I've been talking about
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: it on the phone for the last five days. I
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: mean literally still in two thousand and two. Guys, guess
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: what a jail phone call. This phone call is being recorded.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: That's exactly what it said. But they're like, nope, we're fine. No,
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: they'll never decipher our code. Ever, they'll never figure out
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: what FO I give. The Adelson's are run for their money.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: On October sixteenth, Willis called his aunt Marie's house, and
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: Betty answered. She told him she knew he was being
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: charged because police found a quote big spot of blood
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: in the blue jeep. She also said police believed he'd
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: driven her car on Fourth with the victims inside. Willis,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: of course denied it. Even though we have eyewitnessed, so, yes, okay,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: But Betty went on, saying police had told her she'd
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: be charged too, and that she'd planned the murders and
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: Willis had carried them out. I mean some of those
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: little smoke and mirrors, but I know, yeah, And then
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: came this line, Oh this is my favorite part. Oh
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: my gosh. Okay, you guys, prepare your okay, right, And
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: then came this line one for the True Crime Hall
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: of Infamy. Betty had complained to Willis that police had
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: taken everything from the garage, including her. George foreman grell
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: Willa shouted, what in the damn hell is it? George
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: forman grill evidence too, and Betty, without missing a beat, says,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know Howard. We probably cooked the parts before
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: we got rid of them.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: Okay, Now, to be fair, we have seen that kind
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: of thing before.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but like, roll that real.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: Right up here.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: What's your grill doing then in your garage? If you
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: used it so much that you're so pissed about it?
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: And also like what, yeah, Betty doesn't deserve a lean, mean,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: gretling machine.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: No she doesn't.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I would have given anything to have
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: been whoever had to listen to their calls. So how
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: do I get that job listening to gall calls? I'll
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: do it.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: I'll be a monitor. You don't even pay for it.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, here I'm doing for Fred. Let got all
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: the stuff I volunteered for it. Anyway, here are people's drama.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: But we're gonna talk about the MVP of the story
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: a few minutes here. Yes, Wilda and Howard Willis got
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: married in nineteen ninety two, and they divorced in July
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: two thousand and two, just a few months for all
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: this before all this crazy shit went down, and the
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: two stayed in contact after the divorce. I really don't
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: know why, but anyway, she said, one of the reasons
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: for their split was because she was tired of coming
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: home from her third shift job to find teenagers spending
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: the night at their house. I had two children on
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: my own priori marriage, and I did not approve of
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: the teenagers hanging around and sleeping at my house. The
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: kids would just show up while I worked third shift,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: and he was allowing it. Yeah, Nopeye had probably eating
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: all our food too, eating all our food, You Lake,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Howard probably lack kids.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they wanted Howard sucks everything. Well, Wilda, I love you.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: Let's find out more about why we love Wilda, shall we?
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: Wilda said that during their fourteen year relationship, Betty Willis
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: was a constant source of trouble. To the surprise of
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: no one. A year after they were married, Wilda had
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: to take out a protection order against Betty, and then
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety nine, when Willis filed for bankruptcy, Betty
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: for some reason intervened and filed an objection to the bankruptcy,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: which I didn't even know. I didn't know that right, Like, bitches,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: is not a wedding. What do you mean you object
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: to my bankruptcy? Like? Who even are you? And what
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: does that mean? I don't know what it means.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: I don't even know.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: It's some just weird Tennessee stuff. I don't know. I
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: Georgia.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wherever they were living at the time, Yeah, I
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: don't know either close together. Now, over all those years,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: Wilda said, Betty routinely threatened people's lives, and I believe her.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: I do too. On October fourth, Wilda said that Willis
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: stopped by her house in Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia, in Betty's Reggie.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, regiep again?
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Will yeah? Will thisas all blonde female inside the
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: jeep that a young man standing outside of it. The
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: next time she saw Willis was October eighth, when Willis
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: had come down to talk to officers at the Bradley
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: County Sheriff's office. He told Wilda that he was unable
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: to find Adam and Samantha that day.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Interesting Now. Before his arrest on October eleventh, he
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: called Wilda and told her that Patty Lemmings, Samantha's mom,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: had called him to tell him that Samantha was missing
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: and asked whether he knew of her whereabouts. When Wilda
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: asked him where the kids were, he told her that
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: they had left Johnson City that morning. So his story
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: is all over the place, somewhere I can't find them.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: Oh they left. I didn't pick them up. Okay, two
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: people saw me and the regiep Oh maybe, but no, that's.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know what you lave.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: The mother who burst Samantha was wrong about you being
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: in a reggie picking her daughter up the last time
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: he saw. Okay, you guys, we are not even to
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: the infurior. You guys are gonna hate this guy so much.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: Know he's just.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: When we get to one of what his lawyers call me,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: and she'll understand all about this man. After Willis was arrested,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: Wilda went to the Washington County Sheriff office and told
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: them that either Betty or Marie called her and said
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: that Willis wanted Wilda to go to his federal court
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: hearing the following Monday. Wilda agreed to wear a wire
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: and meet with Betty and aunt Marie and on her
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: visit with Willis also who said that he had some
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: things to tell her. Detective Seonda Ifa also gave Wilda
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: a tape recorder and asked her to begin recording her
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: conversations with Willis and record she did.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes she did. Yes, we love We love Wilda.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: I stand for Wilda Wilda. I believe it's still with us.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: If anybody knows Wlda, ask her she's going to talk,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: because she just seems awesome and I appreciate everything that
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: she did and the start of you. She's a freaking
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: hero and deserve some applause. So anyway, so when Wilda
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: went to visit Willis in jail, they had to talk
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: through a plexiglass window, which made it very hard to
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: hear anything clearly. And it is very hard. And the
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: telephones that are usually there are shit. It's awful.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: Well, that's why the toilet paper's there, because the phones
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: are shit.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: Oh I recognize it's not the cleex. Shut up, that's
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: what that is. When people cry, we're not getting cleanex.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: We're just sitting some toilet paper here.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: What.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's weird now. Willis told her to come back
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: the next day and to bring a tape recorder, a notebook,
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: and a pencil. That's right. Willis asked her, Hey, come
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: visit me in jail and tape the whole thing.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: They look uncomfortable is what they look like.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, those are jail chairs. But so the cops
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: are already like, hey, record everything, and Willis is just like, babe, ex, babe,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: come and record it. It's fine. I still don't understand
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: why he asked her to do this. I don't understand, right,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: So will just said, well, that might not be easy, right.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: He actually suggests did that she bring a fifty dollars lawyer.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know what lawyer prices are in Tennessee, but
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: holy shit.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: That was a that would be a really bad lawyer anywhere.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, anyway, suggests that she bring this fifty dollars
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: lawyer with her and pretend to be his assistant and
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: have the lawyer leave once they were inside. That way
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: they could talk face to face in private, Like, what
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: lawyer is signing up to do this? Literally risking his
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: entire you know, license, probably, and he's only charged fifty dollars.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: What is happening?
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's our auk Willis is, what's happening here?
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, listen, it's not get out of Jeoffrey thinking.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: But you can't say that he wasn't creative.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah he tried, kid. Yeah. The next day, October sixteenth,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: she or a according to Vice again and went to
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: visit Betty and Aunt Marie before heading back to the jail.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: After that visit, she returned to see Willis, this time
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: with the tape recorder and notepad he'd asked for, and
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: this time the two met in a private visitation room.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: What Willis didn't know was that the room wasn't all
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: that private. Investigate investigators that hid in the microphone inside
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: of trash can, because of course they did, and on
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: that tape Willis confess.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, oh my god, she didn't have to
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: get the fifty dollars lawyer. And he didn't even like
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: question it, like wait, we got ahead and room and
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: there's no lawyer, like what is it? Nope, he didn't.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: You guys, I saw what happened, all right, here's what happened.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: So Wilda asked him if he killed Adam and Samantha.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: He explained that it all happened on Sunday, October sixth
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: at his mother Betty's house. Remember you, guys, this is
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: all record that Adam was wild on something came after
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: him and went all the pieces whatever that means. He said, Yeah,
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: I blew their brains out. I just pulled the trigger
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: right then and there on them. Willis, that's going to
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: give you the death penalty. Sir, Oh my gosh, I
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: can't believe I haven't thought of this, and unless three
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: and a half days working on this. Sorry, uh, Lama,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: brother Rolama has just said, what's she talking about, Willis?
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: I can't believe I didn't think about that at all.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: I'm not tapping in here somewhere.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, I was doing the zone, all right. So his reason,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: he said, was that Adams said he had robbed and
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: killed Sam Thomas, remember the missing elderly stepped in a
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: no no, and that Adam was laughing about it. Okay, okay.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: He also said that he cut off Adam's head and
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: hands and threw them into the river near to Vaultbridge,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: and then put Adam and Samantha's bodies in the storage unit.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: Will This said Wilson showed no emotion when telling her
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: this story, quote like it didn't matter to him. They
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: were dead and gone. And I agree, like, what how
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: are we even are we even saying any of that.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: You knew these kids, you took care of these kids,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: and you're just like, oh, yeah, he told you he
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: he killed my stuff, y'ad and he was laughing about it.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: So what shut shut up.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: Always, everybody else, shut.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: Up your He was this pro tip, pro tip if
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: you're committing crime, don't treat jail phones like a podcast
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: or do so I can talk about them on my podcast.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: He is a ruthless bastard.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: He is terrible. You just it, just buckle up better.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: After that meeting, Willa kept getting calls from Willis, and
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: every time he did, she would press that record button
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: and then turn the tape over to investigators. Though he
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: would never outright confess again, he would tell her that
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: his mother killed the kids, that Daniel Foster, Samantha's own
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: brother did it, and even that the mafia killed them. Yes,
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: of course, but it didn't matter because his later calls
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: were still full of statements that basically implicated himself.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: Anyway, He's not a good layer.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: He does a lot, he does have a lot of
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: practice at it, but he's not good at it.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Now. Willis was soon transferred to New
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: York to deal with his federal charges, but he's still
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: kept in contact with Wilda. On January first, two thousand
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: and three, Wilda got a request from Willis and from
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: aunt Marie to fly to New York and visit him
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: in person. Now, law enforcement told her not to go.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: But.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: She went anyway because she's Wilda and she's the best, right,
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: so she went. She met with Willis face to face
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: in a large community room with no wire, no tape recorder,
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: no official record, just the two of them, which normally
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: would kind of bother me a little bit that stuff
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: comes out that's not recorded, But honestly, I don't think
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: she's making anything up because Willis freaking talks about everything
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: all the freaking time. So yeah, now, Wilda didn't think
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: Willis had any idea that she was working for the police,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: and he gave her, oh my god, he gave her
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: a very suspicious to do list for someone who was
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: still maintaining his innocence. All right, so let's talk about
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: what he asked Wilda to do while he is sitting
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: in federal jail. Let's hear about it.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: Okay, out of one found a chainsaw that he claimed
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: Betty Betty his matter. Remember he's fifty one. How old
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: is she had thrown out of a car window?
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you guys, So I am the belief that
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: a seventy plus year old woman through a freaking chainsaw
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: out of a car window. Like, what are you? What's
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: you talking about? Willis what I mean? Maybe Betty was
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: a former Olympic shop put her back at her day,
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: I guess, But like even that, like what a chainsaw
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: out the car window? Okay? Okay, sir, okay.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: And he didn't just say somewhere out there, oh no,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: he gave her literal turn by turned directions, the kind
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: of directions you get in the country from Chattanooga to
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: take Ice tventy five north past the Oudlewall exit to
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: the gravel office semi trucks, walk to the guardrail, and
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: then keep walking until you can't see your car. Look
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: to the right, and there in the ditch she would
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: find the chainsaw.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: Again. He literally just said, my old ass mom threw
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: a chain saw out the window. But in order to
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: find it, you need to park your car and you
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: get out. You need to walk till you can't see
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: the car no more, and then look in a ditch.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: And that's that's where she find it. Like, how far
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: can your mom throw a chainsaw? What is what?
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: Really he's trying, he shined. You gotta guys not even
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: prepared for what he told her to do with it. Okay,
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: he told her to clean it with gasoline to get
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: rid of any fingerprints. Then break into Daniel Foster's house, yes,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: Samantha's brother, steal some of his clothes, wrapped the chainsaw
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: in them, stash it under his trailer, and then anonymous
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: anonymously tip off the police about where to find it.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: H I mean, he didn't do it, You guys didn't
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: do this he didn't kill a cat. He didn't do
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: it all, so no, it's totally not all like. So
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: now he's telling her where this is, and he's like,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: but listen, I didn't have anything to do with it,
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: but I need you to then go create, go do
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: another felony for me by breaking into this poor sweet
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: dead girl's brother's house and frame him.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: And it's fine, had it, I'll figure it out.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, amos, Yes, he did give her a gavenger hunt
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: for his own evidence that he knows nothing about because
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: he didn't do it. He didn't do it, he said,
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: you guys, lady face it is.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: So he got that shit right.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: Right now, you guys. It was in that conversation where
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: Willis gave some new information about what really transpired. Okay,
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: let's go for a new story. Why not? Why not, Williams?
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: Why not? He told Wilda that Adam and Samantha had
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: in fact came to Johnson City with him to help
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: clean Betty's house because it had been vandalized, but he
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: took another trip down to Georgia and returned back to
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: his mom's on October sixth, So they were here, but like,
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: I was gone, so I don't I don't know what
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: happened to them, Okay.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: He said. Samantha also arrived at Betty's house that night,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: and then the next day Adam showed up. Willis went
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: to the mall. Then Beauty Spot in Unicoy County. Don't
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: go there. There's a whole other crimes that happened there.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: You just you're talking. You want to get your band
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: Joe out if you go to beauty spots.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna need to know more about Beauty Spot.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: I have a whole other prime I can tell you
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: about that. Oh good now and a few other places
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: during the day. And when he returned back to the house,
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: the newly Wins were gone and that it was him.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: He's such the noble guy that discovered their bodies in
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: the storage unit. Seriously.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, First of all, I just wanted to know. I
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: didn't know Beauty Spot was that kind of thing. I
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: thought it was a store.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: Now it's an actual place in Unicoy County, and I
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: mean it's beautiful.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: It is okay that it has a great view, but.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go up there during the day and it's nice,
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: but come down before you it gets dark. Because the
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: thing is any place somebody can drive to the lazy
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: criminal taps will drive to the various activities.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: So true, then this explained because I was like, why
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: would Willis go to a beauty store? That's fucking weird.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: No, I probably went to spot because he probably about
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: some munshan on the way up.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: Oh, he was putting stuff there. But then again, they
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: weren't good at hiding anything, so I don't even know,
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: all right, they're real bad at it. And so like,
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: I like how he's like, I was gone, I brought
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: them up here, then I was gone, but then when
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: I came back, they were gone. And then I went
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: into the storage unit that my mom had just rented,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: and there they were. Oh my gosh.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: What He was shocked to discover a gambling in the establishment.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: Right now, you guys, Okay, So, according to him, he
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: finds their bodies in the story that belonged to his
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: mom that he knew nothing about. Right, Oh my god,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: what would you do? What would you do?
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you what he did, all right
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: in his story that it's not real, Okay. He didn't
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: call the police because he wanted to find evidence, and
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: after conversations with his mother, he decided he should record them.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: First quote, if Bradley County had not falsified a bunch
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: of bullshit and had me arrested, it would have been
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: over a long time ago. I would have immediately recorded
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: it and took it to the police. That's right, you guys.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: He's also a detective.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: He was going to save the day. Yeah, I mean,
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: I guess. I don't know he's all of it.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: But somehow he knew where his mom threw a chainsaw
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: out the window.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: Threw it out the window, but you could throw it.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: You had to go get out of your car and
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: you can see your car to find how far she
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: threw it. Why didn't you just throw the door forming
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: grille out there with it to keep it safe? Yes, didn't,
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: she said, would have had it. I don't know. When
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: Wilda got back to Tennessee, she went straight to investigators
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: and told them everything.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: Could you imagine their faces?
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: What? And on January third, with detectives in toe, Wilda
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: actually found the chainsaw exactly where he said it would be.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: And get this. As she was looking, Willis called her
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: from New York to guide her to the expot exact spot.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: That call recorded time.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: In again how would you know that though? How how
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: would you know unless you were there and got out
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: of your car and walked all right.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: Until you couldn't see your car anymore, And.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: Which means if she was in the car throwing the chainsaw,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: Reverend landed, you wouldn't have been able to see. You
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: couldn't see the car from there, So how'd you know?
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: How did he know? This guy? I hate this guys.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: As we open this, we will mock the shit out.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: Of him because he's stupid.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: Now in another recorded call, because there were several he
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: didn't learn his lesson from the storage you and it
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: or talking about anything else. He is just still Look.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: Willis told Wilda about other items he had thrown in
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: the river, but he was very clear that she needed
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: to get the chainsaw first. Don't take it home, maybe
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: put it in a storage unit, just kidding, and don't
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: let the police find it until everything was together. Like,
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: that's not suspicious at all, That is not when an
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: innocent person like was that. I know you found this
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: piece of evidence. I'm asking you again to commit another
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: felony by tampering with evidence and breaking into a house
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: and all of that. Okay, but don't take it home.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know what she's supposed to do with it
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: after she wipes it with gasolinian, Oh, she takes it
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: back to the brother's house. That's right. But then don't
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: call the cops until everything comes together, Okay, and he
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: has a plan. It's fine, it's fine. Don't worry about
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: it now. Then he told her if that wasn't ludicrous enough,
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: he then told her to put the word out on
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: the street that she wanted information on Daniel Foster, as
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: if this was some sort of spy operation, Like what
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: is Wilda supposed to do? Hey, God, it's just hey,
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: person on the street, we have any information about Daniel Foster?
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: Like what what are you even asking of her? Oh?
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: My gosh, I know, it's like well drafted. I don't know.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: This is crazy. Willa kept recording every call and turning
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: them over to investigators. In one of them, Willis insisted
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: that it was Dan Daniel Foster who killed Adam and
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: Smith at Betty's house, and that Betty told him afterwards
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: and that Daniel was trying to frame him. M Okay,
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: when did Daniel get to Betty's house? We've never heard
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: that story.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: You just usually get a chainsaw and frame.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: Daniel, he said. He said, Betty never told him why
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: Daniel killed them, but he understood that both both victims
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: were shot before Adam was dismembered. So now he's back
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: to I didn't do it, but I still know where
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: the chainsaw is that Daniel used. He saw a lot
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: of war. But right, we gotta give it back to
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: Daniel now because whatever reason, well maybe decided she's the
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: one head to get rid of. I don't know what.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: Why is Betty covering for Daniel's ass? She doesn't know
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: why to get it, but she's willing to, like chuck
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: a chainsaw up the car window for some good guy.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: She doesn't even know that apparently like killed her his
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: sister and husband. Like, what are you even? What is happening? Right?
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: We didn't got the court yet either with these stories.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: Yet. Oh my gosh, we told you all this was
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: gonna be a long show. Yeah, I think you're starting
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: to see why. Okay, it does not get better. It
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: does not. So even though he was constantly changing the narrative,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: he was still giving away the truth, right, Like there's
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: a whole lot of truth in those things. He just
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: was like, but it wasn't me right, my mom through
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: the chainside, nothing to do with I wasn't even there,
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: according to him one of the other times. All right,
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: and now you guys, you guys, if none of us
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: has been ridiculous enough for you, prepare yourselves. Okay, because
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: Willis started sending Wilda riddles and drawings to pass along
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: to detectives, supposedly to speed things up. That's yes, yes, So.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: Now Howard Hawk Willis thinks he's as clever as zodiac
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: or bt K. There's not enough room in my head,
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: roll my eyes back far enough for that. I need
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: riddles and.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: Lady in Gray. He's just trying to solve the mystery. Okay,
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: I didn't do it, but he's going to get to
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: the bottom of it by sending riddles and games to
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: the police instead of just telling them what he knows. Okay,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: so he is practically writing his problem.
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes he is.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: He wrote a lot of things as well. Everything all right,
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: So what is my little mama doing, Little Lamma, what
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: are you doing? You should be in the bedroom. He's
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: probably asleep either way, Get some water, get to bed,
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: make pebe trick your homework first. Sorry, mom, duties my
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: mama duties.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: Gotta do it, I do it.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: Go be arm right, gotta be doing it all right?
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: Where were we? Oh? My godness, you guys speaking of
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: handing them probable cause. He even dictated a summary of
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: what supposedly happened that October that he wanted Wilda to
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: hype up and deliver to prosecutors. Again, all you had
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: to do would be like, I've got things to say,
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: let me talk to the prosecutors. And they would have
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: sent their happy asses to New York. Trust me, they'd
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: have been on a freaking red eye flight. I don't
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: know if that's how red eye flight works, I don't know,
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: but they would have been there. Okay.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: Do you know what that reminds me of Sarah Boone
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: when she went there and she had that lace of
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: stuff to talk to.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know if we know who Sarah Boone's dad is. Okay,
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: but this guy, okay, this guy over here could be
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: a candidate, and you'll see why. You'll be like, no, yes, Now, obviously,
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: Wila didn't need to do any of that because she
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: was already giving them the tapes. She didn't need to
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: type up anything for them. She yeah, sure, no.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: She also had email correspondence with Gertrude Lark, the sister
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: of Willis's first wife, who had been missing for many years.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: In one of those emails, Wilda wrote that she believed
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: that Betty was involved in the murder of Debbie. We've
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: already talked about her, as well as some of those
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: other kids Howard was connected with in Georgia. In a
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: later email to missus Lark, Wilda wrote that she planned
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: to ask the district attorney to allow her to meet
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: with Willis face to face and push every button I
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: can to get Howard to tell the truth about everyone.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: Wilda wasn't just interested in getting answers for Debbie, but
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: also for her missing uncle and Willis's stepdad, Sam Thomas.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: The night he told me he killed those two kids,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: I told the cop he killed his first wife and
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: he killed my uncle, Sam Thomas. This is how the
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: relationship is between the between Howard and This is where
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: the Tennessee roots part comes in. Sam Thomas was my
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: blood uncle and he's Howard Willis's stepfather. We were raised
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: as cousins and tell his mom and my uncle divorced
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: about the time Howard was sixteen. We knew each other
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: as kids, and he is eleven years older than me.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: So see, it's not like blood incestuous. It's just that
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: relationship by marriage that still makes things kind of creepy.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: In early two thousand and three, Wilda was able to
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: lead detectives to the body of Sam Thomas over thirty
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: miles away from his home in Lookout Mountain, Georgia, based
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 2: on information will escape her, but you all remember that
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: is where Adam's family lived. They were able to confirm
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: that Sam had been shot and his arms severed at
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: the elbows, but his head had not been found. You
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: can't tell me he could give me directions that close
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: and not be involved to an extent, Wilda said, I'm
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: really holding off making it disc decision about his guilt
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: or innocence until I see what Bradley County comes up with.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know what information brand Bradley County has. I
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: just know that how what Howard had told me to me,
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: you can't know as much as he knows without either
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: being the one to pull the trigger or at least
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: be involved. And she's right, I agree with her. Unfortunately,
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: to this day, no one has been charged in the
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: Sam Thomas Herder.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: I mean I come into her for Bill. I'm like, well,
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: I'm girl, hold on making a decision, be a girl.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: I think she didn't want to face it, but I
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: think she knew, you know what I mean? Like married,
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: he knew too much. How could he not be involved?
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: She was married with him for fourteen years, dealing with
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: this kind of shit for fourteen years.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: Cray, she knewing, he knew what he could do. But
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: Betty Willis was rested in charge in March fourth, two
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: thousand and three as an accessory after the fact. The
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: first story murder, two counts of abuse of a corpse,
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: and one count of soliciting another to destroy evidence.
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: Ooh, that's not good for you, Betty.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: About six months after Betty look at her. She just
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: looks mean. About six months after Betty was indicted, she
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: decided she was ready to get this whole thing over with.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: She filed the motion for a speedy trial. The court
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: was like, alrighty, Betty, you got it, they said to
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: date December fifteenth, two thousand and three.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, a'm a saying it's like a thank God was
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: written by the people from entire king. Oh that's so true.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: You don't even know, right, So but just one week
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: before her trial, the prosecution suddenly hit paused and asked
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: the judge for a continuance, evening they could have put
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: Betty on trial for being an accessory after the fact
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: to murder until the actual murderer, her son, Howard Willis,
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: had been ouly tried and convicted. Okay, so basically, in
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: legal terms, you can't be the after the fat person
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: until the fact is proven in core, which makes sense. Yeah,
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: even though you know, I don't really think that was necessary,
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: but okay, whatever, Okay, So the prosecution says, yeah, we
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: gotta wait for Howard, and the judge was like, yeah,
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: that checks out. So the motion for us speedy trial
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: was denied.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: Five years after Baby was first charged and now seventy
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: six years old. Her trial was expected to begin in
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: November two thousand and seven because Willis's trial was expected
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: to convince that October spoiler, they didn't. But I found
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: this court hearing really high lost the whole apple does
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: fall far from the tree, saying.
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, this is ridiculous.
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 2: She has it's hilarious.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: Eddy's and pretzels. I didn't get dinner before we started.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: Let me snack. You guys know I love my snacks.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: Snacks all right, so prepare yourselves. So Betty appeared in
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: court briefly before Judge Robert Cup, who she had seen
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: so often that the two had developed an oddly cordial rapport.
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: She arrived with a man described as her common law husband,
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: Russell Dorman, who sported a shaved head and a neck
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: tattoo because because of Corse awesome, she said her freaking seventies.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: Oh this boyfriend that has a shaved head and neck tattoo? Like,
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: what is Betty? Us kids.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: Around here?
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it's true, right, I guess right?
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: So he calls he calls Betty up to the podium.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: The judges right, And when Russell joined her at the podium,
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: the judge Cup asked him like, is there any reason
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: you're up here with her? Like what are you doing? Right?
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: And he said that he thought he meant both of them,
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: and oh boy, that's a real winner you got there, Betty,
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: just what you deserve, right. So Judge Cup then was like,
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: well she can handle herself, like, go get along, good along.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: What are you doing? Oh boy?
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: Turning back to Betty, the judge asked warmly, how are
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: you doing. I'm pretty good, she replied, Well you look good,
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 2: he said, and what was a real bit small talk?
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: But the cool in our court rooms?
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, it might be that southern charm y'all are talking about. Yeah, okay. Well,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: to another surprise of no one, she also had a
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: history of cycling through attorneys, much like her son during
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: the Soul Core proceedings, they're just like in and out,
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: in and out, in and out, which will make sense later,
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: Savage says, just because the rappers wrinkled, doesn't the candy
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 1: ain't still sweet? Oh boys, I.
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: Don't know if I want to think that way, not
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: with Betty's standing. That was not sweeking.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: She's so she like runs through so many attorneys doing
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: because we're at what like five years after the murders.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: Well they're having this conversation, right, and Judge Cupp actually
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: threatened her to make represent herself, saying, you flushed some
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: of the best defense attorneys. You guys, again, you don't
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: know it yet, but this is a family problem. It's hereditary.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: It's genetic.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: Apple and tree, which you will see.
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 1: Now. Judge Cup then asked her, are you going to
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: represent yourself. Are you going to hire a lawyer? Do
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: you have the ability to hire one, to which Betty
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: responded with yes. Then came the judge's final jeb. He said,
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: is he going to have the ability to put up
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: with you? You may want to go out of this
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: area if you don't want to come back.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: This part I don't understand. I remember I hadn't understand it.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: But Betty was permitted to move to Oklahoma while I'm
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: bond waiting for her trial. But I'm fly. Betty died
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 2: in October two thousand and nine.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: Wow, I'm sorry. I don't know what a noised to me.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: Don't either like she's okay. I know somebody wants to
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: say something, but I'm not gonna speak for her. She'll
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: speak later, AIN'TI. Marie Hawk Holmes was also charged with
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: an attempt at Tampa with evidence for trying to get
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: willed to destroy Willis's confession tape. She entered a best
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: interest plea. I'm not sure what that means. I haven't
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: seen that before, but okay, I guess I don't know.
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: Just plead do it and get it up with it.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: Was sending to two months in jail. Marie died on
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: August twenty eight, twenty eleven.
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: So I don't know much. I mean, I kind of
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: find much about Marie. I'm not going to say she
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: sucks as much as Betty. She had a thank you teasuary, though.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: Tell you what they named everybody? I think in all
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: it's Tennessee in her obituary Marie everybody except Betty by
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: the way. By the way, Betty's not in it. Huh No,
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: Betty was passed before. But still usually you'll say, yeah,
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: maybe Marie was the road pirates we talked about earlier.
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: Baby, she was a road pirate.
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: I do think that is a patch she might have had.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people have a lot of people
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: the means of a glass. If they're as they have
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 2: a problem with it.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, okay, now you guys, we would love
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: to get close to wrapping up the story tonight. Okay,
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: I know it's one. We've been here for an hour
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: and forty minutes. But don't you worry, Howard hawk Willis says,
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: Shenanigan's they don't stop here, So we're gonna keep going.
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: We're gonna keep going, okay, because as we just stated
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: a few minutes ago, I think we found Sarah Boone's
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: inspiration because willis himself. We'd go through a salout of
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: nine to ten lawyers until his trial eight years after
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: his arrest. Anyways, it's not boring, Okay.
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. His first two appointed attorneys were James Bowman
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 2: and Stacy Street. While Stacy Street was an excellent defense
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 2: attorney and he is presently a district court criminal judge,
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 2: James Bowman was considered to be the best he was.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: That's James Bowman right there. He was a fifty four
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 2: year veteran of the courts. He handled about twenty five
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 2: capital murder cases in his career, and not one of
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: those defendants went on to receive the death penalty.
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: Is mister Bowman still with us.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure if he is.
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'll talk to Stacy Street, who looks like
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: he's judge.
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: Now he is a judgment.
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: Didn't know Stacey was a guy when I was writing this.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was like, he's a nice guy. I mean,
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: he's a nice man, you know. I mean, I'm mad him,
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: but I don't know him. But anyway, and not one
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: of his defeats Man Baby, I know I saw that. No,
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 2: he's like Austin, He's a man baby, I could know. Sorry, Okay, Anyway,
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: it was important that James Bodwin had for him to
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 2: have experience on his for murder case capital murder cases,
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: because that was very much on the table with WILLI
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 2: for willis mm hmm.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: Now, oh, I'm sorry, I just realized I was true
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: in a pretzel. You probably all heard. I'm sorry, m m.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: This is not We'm as as Mr Snack eating time.
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: Sorry now, but was no rook Okay, I mean twenty
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: five capital market like that is a big deal, Okay,
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: because despite what people think, it's very hard for there
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: to be a death penalty case to go after death
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: in a lot of states. So twenty five may sound
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: like a little number, but it's a lot actually because
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: it takes years to prepare for them.
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 2: There were probably all plea deals, you know what I'm saying,
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 2: A woman.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, remember at that point, the defender's job is
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: to just not get them put to death, so they
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: could be plea deals as well. Sure. Yeah, Now, he
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: said he has had plenty of difficult clients in his career,
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: but even he would later admit that Howard Hawk. Willis
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: was a whole different level of difficult. Okay. Quote, he
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: had his notion of what he wanted to talk about
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: and his notion of how he wanted to handle his case. Basically,
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: Willis thought he was running the whole shop, which kind
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: of you are, but also, no, you're not a lawyer
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: for a reason. What are you doing? This is like
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: the best at tourney? You would get it sounds like
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: in Tennessee.
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: In this district, it would be yes at that time.
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's a public defender, and I think I
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: would try to hire him. I mean, that's how good
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: he was, you know what I'm saying. Technically, Bowman said
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 2: that Willis had that right to be in charge as
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 2: long as what he wanted to do stayed within the law.
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 2: Big kicker there, which, given what we know about him,
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: is doing and had a lot of heavy lifting. Eventually,
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 2: Bowman and Street had enough to fouwed the motion to
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: withdrawal from representing Willis. When he was asked why, Bowen said,
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: he can explain, but it would require breach of attorney
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 2: client privilege. All I could say was that there had
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: been a conflict between them. Bowman, Oh, sorry, who.
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: That he asked his attorneys Bowman and Straight to break
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: into Daniel Foster's trailer and take his clothes and wrap it,
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: wrap the chainsaw and put it under his trailer. Who
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: thinks he asked his lawyers to do that. Oh, he
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: definitely was asking his lawyers to like frame somebody. That's
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: That's basically what they were saying without actually saying it.
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: So Now. Bowman explained that both he and Street had
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 1: constant issues, but trying to get Willis to cooperate, he
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: wouldn't give them key information or stay focused, and he
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: keeps sending them down weird investigative rabbit holes that had
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with the case. I went down rabbit
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: holes myself because you stupid houred hawk Willis. Now. Willis
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 1: also loves demanding evidence so he could review it, but
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: then he'd refused to actually review its.
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, that sounds like somebody looks sarapoon.
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, what he did the same thing.
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: She said, I need my discovery. That's too much to
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 2: look at. I don't like yeah. Steel. Bowman admitted that
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: Willison help a bit, mostly in getting background info, but
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: the second they tried to get him to talk about
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: what happened around the time of the merse he could
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: beletely shut down. Basically, his own lawyers were like, he
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: wouldn't listen, but he's legally allowed to be his own
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: worst enemy. Now, I will add this that they lasted
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: about eighteen months, which is about the longest time that
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: his lawyers. Really the lawyers stuck with him, because after
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: that it was.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: Just like yeah, but also like, I mean, all the
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: other attorneys are great too, but like he got the
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: top two in the first round. Okay, you know he
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: did experience and you know, getting people because he's he's
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: up for the death bounty, y'all. Okay, And here he
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: was assigned two of the best lawyers you could possibly have. Again,
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: the other one's great too, not knocking them, but like,
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: what why are you trying to fuck this up? Willis?
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: What are you doing? Okay? So next on the revolving
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: door of defense attorneys. Then where William Lawson and Jean
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 1: Scott Why? Oh my gosh, Now I need to know
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: why William Lawson, why he has a mug shut?
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 1: That he gets a mug shot?
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: Oh no?
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 1: And then Jeane Jean looks like a Jean Jean's just
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: happy to be here. He looks like a gene. Yeah right, yeah,
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 2: We may have to find that. I might have to
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 2: dig into that rabbit hole because obviously we didn't see this.
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 2: Where does Capin find these pictures?
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know. She's amazing at what she told me. Now,
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 1: Lawson had already handled two capital cases and thousands of others.
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: But even before he really got started, he had a
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 1: feeling this wasn't going to last long. Willis had quite
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: the long criminal history and a pattern of getting lawyers
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: appointed and then getting them fired. And yeah, that tracks,
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 1: that tracks in everything we know. Hold on, we're getting
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: a message. We're getting a message from producer Amy Feels
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: saying stealing money from his clients. Oh no, no, attorney
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: a Lasson. Oh no, he was arrested for stealing money
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: from this clients. I'm looking great. What year was this,
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: Oh twenty.
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: Nineteen, Oh that was recently. How did I know?
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, resent I was.
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: Oh I was living in boondy and that's why I
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: missed that.
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: He's stole more than sixty four or sixty five thousand
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: from his clients. Well he has no murder, no, yeah,
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: so he's charged Loston with one count of theft over
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: sixty thousand and one count of theft over one thousand.
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 1: He turned himself in and had a bond. Oh, he
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: definitely worked his way out of that one. That doesn't
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: even sound like a sixty one. Okay, anyway back to
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: this story.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, but I'm glad we got that update. Thank you,
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 2: thank you, happing to NamUs for the behind the scenes updates.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: On top of things, it's probably Willis's complaint. I'm just kidding,
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 1: but it was.
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: Maybe it was. We don't know. At first, Lawson tried
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 2: to do his job, but he said the biggest problem
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 2: was simple. Willis just wouldn't talk to him about the case.
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 2: He tried to investigate even without Willis's help, but kept
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 2: hitting walls. Willis wouldn't discuss Betty Willis or Daniel Foster
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 2: or the statements Willis made to Wilda. Lawson was looking
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: for anything they could explain or soften the case against Willis.
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a freaking job. He's just like, do
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: give me something, like literally anything, right, Lawson said. Willis
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: never once claimed he was innocent, never offered a defense theory,
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: never mentioned acting in self defense. Or under duress or
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: in defense of someone else. Nope, no, no, no, nope.
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 1: He also explained something really cute. Any defense strategy they
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: used had to be credible because juries can smell nonsense
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 1: from a mile away, right and in his deal, okay,
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: that's true. So and mister Lawson's view, given the mouth
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: of evidence, this case was really just going to come
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: down to the penalty phase. I mean, the only question
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: that was left was whether Willis would get life or death,
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: not if he was guilty or not guilty. Okay, And
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, we're not winning that one, bro Okay,
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 1: you're gonna have to give me something if you don't
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: want to, you.
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: Know that, trained and left the station m H. On
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: September twenty eight, two thousand and five, Lawson filed the
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 2: motion to withdraw just two days after Willis told him
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: that he filed a complaint with the Board of Professional Responsibility,
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: which he makes.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: Like a Karen huh, he looks like a Karen.
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: Look though, he looks like he wants the manager all
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: the time, all the time, always what's the manager? And
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 2: fun fact, Willis hadn't even filed it yet. That wouldn't
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: happen for two more weeks, he said, I've just filed it,
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 2: but he hadn't yet. But in the motion, Lawson referred
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 2: to Willis as a blatant provocateur and that he said
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: to the press at the hearing that this meant liar.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: He's a liar. Just to be clear, he's a liar.
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: I want you to know that, you know, in case
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: we have listeners who don't follow trials like we do. Yeah,
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 1: this is all this stuff that these lawyers are saying,
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: first and foremost is not normal. Okay. A lawyer will
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 1: go through leaps and bounds to not talk about a
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: client past or farmer and in bad ways, right because
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 1: it doesn't look good as them, right, Like if you're
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: hiring a way and you're like, well he just talks
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 1: shit about like, you know, three of his clients and
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 1: putting all their dirty laundry in there, not gonna want
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 1: to hire that guy, right. So, lawyers usually do not
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: say anything negative about their client, no matter what. Okay,
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 1: they really try not to. And this is when you
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: know you are a shithole client, You've caused a bunch
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 1: of problems when you have a slew of lawyers being like, no,
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: this guy says he's a liar. He's the worst. Okay, yes,
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: amis your own lawyer calling you a liar? Yeah? Remember
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 1: the one before that was like basically he asked us
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: to do a legal shit. We were like no, but right,
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 1: so now lawyers can withdraw for all sorts of reasons. Right,
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 1: maybe they already worked with somebody that was a witness,
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: like conflicts of interest, things like that, right, that happens
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 1: all the time, but this was not like that. Some
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: of the attorneys were because of that. But that's because
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: he ran out of options now. Well as for Jean Scott,
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: the co counsel that was with laws and he didn't
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: have any major issues with Willis at the point, so
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 1: he stayed on. Also, if you saw remember his picture,
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 1: of course, he looks like a guy that would stay on.
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: He's just happy to be wherever it looks like. But
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: see there he is, right like I'm here, I'm happy
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: all the time, all right. But even he admitted that
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: Willis and the judge didn't exactly get along in all fairness,
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: they clashed, he said.
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 2: After Lawson tapped out, Woody Smith stepped in to replace
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 2: him and teamed up with the Jean Scott, because of
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 2: course he does. And to be fair, they actually did
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of work. They brought in private investigators, a
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 2: mitigation expert, and basically rebuilt the defense team from scratch.
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 2: They even tried to get will Willis's confession to will
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 2: to thrown out, but that didn't go through. No, oh.
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 1: Very much, so, very much so. But Will let you guys,
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: wasn't given up. Though he wanted to file emotion to
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: suppress everything found in his mother, Betty Willis's house. Okay,
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: why okay, nothing now in there? Nothing happened at Betty's
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: house though, you guys, But we don't want we don't
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: want it in there. No, but Jean Scott had other ideas.
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: He thought their best play was to pen the whole
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: thing on Betty. Okay, I would have to disagree with you,
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 1: Jean Scott. But she can throw a chainsaw out of
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 1: cart Wedow, however fucking far away.
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: So maybe, okay, maybe maybe.
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: And he did say honestly, after dealing with Betty himself,
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: Scott said he had good reason to believe she was
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 1: more than just an accessivey after the fact, despite the
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: fact that that's exactly what she was charged with. But
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, I do think Betty was involved in a
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: lot of things. It doesn't make sense for her to
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 1: have killed them based on all we know. I don't
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 1: actually think she had anything to do with this one.
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly right.
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, rest a development joke for y'all.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, Things between Willis and his turns though, we're starting
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 2: to get tense again. On March nineteen, two thousand and seven,
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 2: Scott fouled the motion to with raw. At the hearing,
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 2: the judge basically told them to go have a prayer meeting. Yes,
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: that was the judge's words, to try to patch things up.
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 2: Jus how judges talk in East Tennessee.
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, okay, well and you guess what he did.
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: He did? They did, you guys, they won't have that
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 1: prayer meeting and after that come to Jesus meeting. Scott
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 1: actually went back and filed a motion to suppress Willis's
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: statement anyway, like a peace offering. I don't know why
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 1: you did this. By June, though, both Scott and Smith
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 1: told the court they no longer wanted to withdraw. But
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: the peace didn't last long. Oh okay, Gene is really
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 1: sticking it out here.
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 2: He tried, He really tried. After multiple delays, reschedules, court
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 2: and the courtrooms oap opera level drama, the trial was
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 2: finally set for July fourteen, two thousand and eight. July July,
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: then boom it got canceled that April. Why because both
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 2: attorneys went to the Board of Professional Responsibility and were
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 2: basically told, yeah, this relationship is too toxic to continue.
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: So they threw.
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like you gotta go.
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 1: They're like, yo, honey, yeah, listen to you. Are you
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 1: in a safe relationship? Blink once? If you need our help, you.
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 2: Need to go. Well that's when the judge finally dropped
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: the hammer and told Willis that he would have to
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: defend himself. You've blown through all of them, you flushed
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: them all.
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, guys, didn't see that coming, did you. Yeah.
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 2: And just to add a cherry on this absolute sunday
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 2: of chaos, guess who got called back to sit as
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: his side chair counsel. That's right, James Bowman, his very
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 2: first attorney. Full circle.
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: Baby, Oh man, I cannot. That's why I'm wondering if
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: like he is still with us. I hope so, because
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: like I just want to hear you know, he's got
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: there every day me.
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: Like, he's over there going I told you not to
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 2: do that.
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 1: I told you not to do that, getting paid right,
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 1: be like, well, this guy's just walking himself to the chairs.
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: He had me the first time and then didn't want
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 1: to cooperate. But he's a layer in now. So okay, okay,
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 1: oh man, hold on string time in case you guys
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: can't care that what a mess.
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 2: We told you a train Frank t o'clock at not
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 2: you can run your clocks by.
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 1: Train, that's true. Yeah, all right, So let's get into
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 1: the shoot show a trial, shall we, because that's exactly
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 1: what it is, all right. So because whenever somebody's representing themselves,
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 1: don't care who you are, it's the best pro see
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 1: is just the hubris of people just crumbles. And I
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: love it. I love it, honest really, it really is,
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: all right you guys. So finally, finally, after all of
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: these years, on Monday, June fourteenth, twenty ten, the death
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: penalty trial for Howard hawk Willis began. Now, we're not
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: going to repeat all the information we've just presented to
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: you that was already talked about in the trial. We're
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: not going to do it was all brought up there.
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 1: That's how we know most of it, Okay, But we
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 1: are going to go over some of this stuff that
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: we haven't talked about, right, So that way you guys
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: kind of have like all the pieces to the puzzle.
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: All right, So just remember most of what we talked about,
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 1: what was talked about in trial. We're just not going
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 1: to talk about that part, okay. But before we do that,
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 1: we know you all want to hear about this shit
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 1: show of an opening statement, Am I right? Am I right?
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 1: Oh man? What I wouldn't have give for this to
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: be televised.
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 2: Would have been a great one to be telling us,
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 2: And I know I probably would have been in the
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 2: courthouse watching this just because it was a ship show.
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 2: Right out of the gate, Willis tells the jury that
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 2: he's a humanitarian and a true American, just a guy.
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 2: I'm surprising say, I'm just a good old boy.
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 1: You know, that's a good boy like.
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 2: Old Poop did with. You know, I'm just the old
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 2: country boy, just a guy who's he was just a
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 2: guy who had been wrong by the system and betrayed
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 2: by an ex wife with quote some sort of vengeance in.
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: This matter, Okay, sir, I'm sorry, but I can't respect anybody.
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: But that goes up in the first things. They're like,
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 1: I'm a true American, Like wait, get out of here.
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 1: Why are you even saying right now? That was relevance
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 1: you being a freaking killer America's kill all the time?
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: Like that means literally nothing.
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, dobber was American. Exactly what it gain was American?
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 2: What are you talking about.
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 1: There's a whole listening brother that looked just like you,
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: exactly nothing. And he's a humanitarian, which is my favorite.
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 2: He just took those two young people under his wing,
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 2: trying to help them out.
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: You guys, says he knows this is a trial, right,
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: not open mic night out of truck staff.
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know the same thing.
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know right. So then he launches into what
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 1: I can only describe as a conspiracy buffet, okay, accusing
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: basically everyone involved in the case of wrongdoing, right, everybody
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 1: but him, Okay, the state, his ex random investigators, you
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: name it, all conspiring against more poor Howard hawk willis, Oh,
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: poor boy. He then starts to listen, listing all the
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 1: things the state didn't tell you, as if he's about
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 1: to blow the lid off of a government cover up.
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 1: All right, you guys prepared to get red pilled. Everyone,
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: this is your moment. We're all about to be red
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 1: pilled by Howard Hawk Willis guy.
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, they didn't tell you that I've been a resident
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 2: in Georgia for years? Okay, Oh, girls, it didn't matter.
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 1: And it had to be a resident of a state
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 1: to go there.
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 2: And now, who girls, well, why did you come to Tennessee?
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 2: Maybe he can stay in Georgia. Did you would even
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 2: be here? And this missed? They didn't and did? He said,
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 2: they didn't tell you that I was up here for
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: a mission and forgiveness, to make up with my mother.
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 1: A mission of forgive.
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 2: Now I'm surprised, my mama.
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: I just want to say, he might have I just
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 1: might have changed it for my northern you know that.
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. That's a direct coat quote. But I
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: do love how you don't have to like change your
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 1: accent at all to read for him. And it's amazing.
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 1: I love it. I'm sorry, No, it's authentic and I
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: love it. You know, he's he's just a good old
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: mama boy, you guys. He was just trying to heal
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 1: his relationship with his mom.
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he did. He blamed her for throwing the
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 2: changeaw out the car window.
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: Did it kills for people with a young kid? I
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 2: I know, I don't.
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 1: She's my mama and I love her.
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 2: I just I just wonder what kind of that bringing
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 2: he had. It just frightens me. Then it gets weirder,
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 2: because of course it does. He claims the state's timeline
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 2: his bogus, and that they've been doing all sorts of
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 2: things to him since August, not October. He tells the
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 2: jury that he was arrested, he was throwing naked in
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 2: a jail cell and left there overnight on suicide watch.
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 2: What she says was a cover up for what they
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 2: were doing to him.
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm cover up. So while you were a free man,
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 1: they have been doing things to you since then? Like,
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: what are you even saying? M m, that's true. I
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 1: don't see. I don't know if he had any siblings
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: or not. I didn't look, but I don't think so.
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 2: I don't think I ever heard of any.
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 1: But if he did, they hid great, Oh my gosh.
• 2:04:52
  Speaker 1: Rade right, Okay, so they are doing this to him.
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 1: He's just an innocent guy, you guys, it is he
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 1: Then he insists that his phone calls were unmonitored and
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 1: used to set him up. Oh okay, so somebody made you.
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 1: You literally ask your ex wife to bring a recorder
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 1: and record you, Like, we have that on recording of
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 1: you asking her to do that. What are you saying?
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: All right? Then he also says that there's no blood
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 1: anywhere she's not wrong about and that if a chainsaw
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 1: had been used like the prosecution claim, it would have
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 1: thrown blood all over the house. Okay, but we'll get
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 1: back to that. We'll get back to that. Then he
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 1: starts talking about the weather. Seriously, guys, the weather.
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, yes, perfect, perfect blackett all right.
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 1: So here's his argument. He says it was hot in Rossville, Georgia,
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: so there's no way Adam Kristmere would have been wearing
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 1: a jacket. Shut up, what sir? Okay, you don't let
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 1: weather get in the way of fashion, first of all,
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 1: and two what kind of no, it's too hot, nobody's
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 1: wearing a jacket.
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 2: That's yeah, that tells you nothing happened because the jackets
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 2: a lie got you.
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 1: Like, I mean, no fence. But like this kid like
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 1: left his parents' house. I doubt he has much shit.
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: He probably has like two bags of stuff that's his,
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 1: So he's just gonna take it around everywhere. And like
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 1: I still wear sweaters in the summertime.
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, we just watched a grown man spend
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 2: like three months wearing a beanie inside a house. In fact,
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 2: is called a ship though, But that so your outerwear
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 2: is not necessarily conducive to your weather. About this yet, Oh,
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 2: I know, wouldn't that be amazing? And then, after spending
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 2: several minutes claiming he's a victim of a massive setup,
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 2: Willis hits the jury with this gem m ladies and gentlemen.
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 2: I think this crime is horrendous. Is terrible, ladies, gentlemen,
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 2: there's no forensics on that gun to tie it to me.
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 2: It then proceeded declaire, this is my favorite part. That
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 2: Adam and Samantha were actually members of a street game,
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 2: the crips and criminals. What the crips? Yes, yes, really,
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 2: we got no grips here.
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 1: He said that with the straight face.
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 2: He would say, we got no crips here. You want
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 2: to talk about the ridge runners up there with the moonshine,
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 2: we talk about those he's.
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 1: Got the corn bread Mafia or whatever, the Crypts, sixteen
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 1: seventeen year old from some smallest town in Georgia. Like
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 1: fifty people are members of the Crypts. Yeah, oh be honest,
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 1: I'm really starting to understand his previous lawyers like it.
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 2: The withdrawal from this case, because like, oh my god,
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 2: it's all starting to come together.
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 1: Why are you even saying crypt keepers? Maybe not the
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 1: blood right the problems if they were right? All right?
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: So after spinning his web of conspiracy and forgive miss
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 1: missions with mommy, Willis wasn't done, not even close, because
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 1: why would he be. No, he turned to the jury
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 1: and told them to consider not just the evidence, but
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 1: the lack of evidence. Okay, which, okay, fair enough, This
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 1: is a thing defense attorneys actually do, the one thing
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 1: he's done that's actually a defense or anything. Except remember though,
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 1: he was his own attorney, so this was just basically
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 1: telling the jury like, trust me, bro, there's nothing to
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 1: see here, right, Like it's fine. Then he teased that
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 1: a defense expert would come in later and clear up
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 1: all the state's mistakes. Spoiler alert, that never happened, never.
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 2: Happened, never happened.
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 1: That's what happened, just solved it. Maybe he's a blood
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 1: so he's trying to pin it on them. But and
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 1: anything else we've.
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 2: Heard makes more sense than him than.
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 2: Will slauns into a speech about his unailable rights as
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 2: an American citizen. Again okay, but no, thank you doesn't
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 2: matter on the ones that protect the innocent from being
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 2: thrown in prison. He even reminded the jury that he was,
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 2: in his own words, a good decent man. Those are
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 2: only those are his words, and only his words.
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 1: Nobody else to say that I was quote good.
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 2: Then, in an incredibly and extremely distasteful move, he decided
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 2: to attack Samantha's mother, Patty Lemming, calling her drunk and
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 2: bringing up an old hit and run accident. Is that
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 2: somehow helped his case? He also claimed that Adam and
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 2: Samantha brought drugs into his house and that's why he
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 2: kicked him out. So now, was that before or after
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 2: he's murdered them?
• 2:11:09
  Speaker 1: Picked him up? Yeah? Or pick him up to take
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 1: him to his mom's house. Because you know, when I
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 1: think a bunch of young kids are on drugs, I'm
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: going to take him, drive him up to my mom's house.
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 1: Leave them there, yeah, and then drive you know, five
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 1: hours away, and it's like, what's no, shut up? Were
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 1: they doing drugs or choosing lives?
• 2:11:35
  Speaker 2: Well, the lines were in New York, so.
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 1: Just oh my god, I hate this guy, all right,
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 1: and even listen, even if the kids were on drugs
• 2:11:48
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, okay, because whatever happened to them,
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 1: it was not what should have happened to them. And no, no, no,
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 1: like liar, that lies. So also, you guys, it came.
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 1: So there's also this picture. We couldn't find this picture, okay,
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 1: so let me describe this picture real quick because I
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 1: couldn't find it. Looked everywhere, but this picture was a
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 1: very big deal. Okay, well it's gonna come up actually now.
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 1: But this is not the picture I'm referring to, but
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: is similar of nature. Right, so before they disappear, I
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: think this is like a wedding gift or something he paid.
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 1: Willis paid money for them to have an Olin Mills portrait.
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 1: Y'all remember that study Owen Mills, Penny Sierras, you'd like
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 1: your special ones, right, Well, apparently there is a photo
• 2:12:39
  Speaker 1: that the use in court. I couldn't find it where
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 1: it is. Samantha Willis is in the picture too, because
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 1: why not have this guy that you haven't even known
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 1: for a year being like a paid photo shoot with you, Okay,
• 2:12:54
  Speaker 1: who's also like literally old enough to be your grandpa. Okay.
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 1: But anyways, so he apparently has his hand on uh
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 1: her shoulder, Samantha's shoulder, and then so he's it looks
• 2:13:08
  Speaker 1: like he's very close with her, and then like Adam
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 1: is kind of like off to the side. Okay, it's
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 1: very weird. It's very very weird. Yes, Olin Mills Photos, Yes, lady, Okay,
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 1: So anyway, that's the photo they're talking about. Couldn't find it,
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 1: just wanted to explain to you.
• 2:13:26
  Speaker 2: It was probably a set. They are a series they
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 2: did like in one visit, this is one that we see. Yeah, yeah,
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 2: the one that you're talking about is, well, yes, correct
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 2: one either. I don't remember this one.
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 1: I mean I get why it may not be floating around,
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 1: but it is the same exact series. Yeahs Willis's in
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 1: this one. So I just want to preface so that
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 1: way it makes more sense. Okay. So now when it
• 2:13:50
  Speaker 1: comes to the infamous Olin Mills Olin Mills portrait of
• 2:13:54
  Speaker 1: Adam and Samantha that I just told you about. Willis
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 1: had paid for it, Okay, the one where the prosecution
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 1: showed something sinister happening between him and Samantha, which, in
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 1: my opinion, yes, okay, there was. He said quote, this
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 1: was a present to the young folks. Olin Mills is
• 2:14:18
  Speaker 1: not a pornography studio. There was nothing sinister about it
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 1: at all. I mean, yes, that's definitely a sentence you
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 1: never want to say out loud and open court. But
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 1: there were also remember earlier we talked about how there
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 1: were photos in CBS that were after they had murdered
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 1: that were not okay, they were done by Howard. There
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 1: was definitely and then the way that she was found Samantha. Yeah, yeah,
• 2:14:49
  Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to talk about
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 1: that too much because that's just it's too far.
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 2: It's never really been to say it, you know. So
• 2:14:57
  Speaker 2: I don't think I need I don't think it's necessary
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 2: because the murder nothing.
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 1: But you can come you can easily come to your
• 2:15:05
  Speaker 1: own conclusions of that. Now, after all of that, okay,
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 1: he's like, there's nothing wrong with that photo. You guys
• 2:15:12
  Speaker 1: are blown out of proportions. Right, After all that, he
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 1: wrapped things up with the line, please do not rush
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 1: to judgment like I am ready to find him guilty
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 1: right now, all right, which I mean that might have
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 1: been the most normal thing he said all day, Like
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 1: for real, what I ask you.
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 2: Was, Yeah. Well, the first round of witnesses in the
• 2:15:37
  Speaker 2: trial were able to show that Willis was very close
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 2: with Adam and Samantha in some place the newlywed couple
• 2:15:43
  Speaker 2: at the Johnson City home of Betty Willis multiple times
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 2: between April and September of two thousand and two. So
• 2:15:53
  Speaker 2: that's five month period.
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 1: There, right, But he didn't know them that well.
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, no, he didn't know him at all. But but
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 2: he did take him to his mother's house for several
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 2: visits over several months.
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he paid for photos and there are some
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 1: things he didn't know them.
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 2: Let him get married, helped him get married Alvesta. One
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 2: of those witnesses was doctor Vicky Rhn of edineering at
• 2:16:17
  Speaker 2: the Eastridge Animal Hospital in Chattanooga. On December twenty fifth,
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 2: two thousand and two, she checked in a dog named
• 2:16:25
  Speaker 2: Doge for boarding. The paperwork listed Samantha Christmas as the
• 2:16:29
  Speaker 2: owner and guess who was the emergency contact Howard Willis, because.
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 1: Of course he didn't know them. He didn't know them
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 1: that well. Nope, no, no, Now, no one ever came
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 1: back for Doge or Dodge or Doggy. I don't know
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 1: how they said their pets names. I think it could
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 1: be Doggy, right, do you? Maybe it is? Okay, it
• 2:16:52
  Speaker 1: could be I don't know. I don't know either way.
• 2:16:55
  Speaker 1: That was the pet s name somehow. So months later,
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 1: when doctor Ryan learned of the murders, she adopted the
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 1: dog herself. Oh now, no, doctor Ryan isn't some star witness.
• 2:17:12
  Speaker 1: But I just wanted to talk about her because I'm
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 1: sure that what she did would have meant so much
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 1: to Samantha to take her dog in like that, and
• 2:17:21
  Speaker 1: to know that her little fur baby was loved and
• 2:17:23
  Speaker 1: taken care of even after she was gone. So Doctor
• 2:17:29
  Speaker 1: Vicky Ryan.
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, thank you you are hero. Who are you? Then
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 2: we've got James Robert Miller, an attorney from Johnson City.
• 2:17:39
  Speaker 2: He went to Baby's house with his secretary to do
• 2:17:43
  Speaker 2: some quick business with her on September twenty seven, two
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 2: thousand and two. When he pulled up, he saw Willis outside.
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 2: What is it with these lawyers in there.
• 2:17:56
  Speaker 1: That's the same tie Willis is wearing.
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I was thinking that too. It's creepy.
• 2:18:03
  Speaker 1: It's the same tie that will I mean, I guess
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 1: they only have so many ties at the Walmart, right, Yeah,
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 1: must have been a popular tie that year. Do you
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 1: think I got five times Walmart or something? I guess.
• 2:18:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know, But no too, that's funny.
• 2:18:30
  Speaker 1: Now, inside the house, the place was a wreck, okay,
• 2:18:34
  Speaker 1: and debris was all over every room, as we've heard about.
• 2:18:38
  Speaker 1: But in that mess he saw two teens, a boy
• 2:18:41
  Speaker 1: and a girl, sitting around and playing video games. Now,
• 2:18:45
  Speaker 1: Miller made small talk with the girl, who told him
• 2:18:48
  Speaker 1: she'd met Howard at a heart ease a week or
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 1: two earlier, and that she'd come up from Georgia to
• 2:18:55
  Speaker 1: help clean the house. At one point, he noticed the
• 2:18:58
  Speaker 1: girl in the backyard with will and so the girl
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 1: made a phone call, handed the phone back to Willis,
• 2:19:05
  Speaker 1: he talked, and then gave it back to a girl. So,
• 2:19:09
  Speaker 1: even a week before their deaths, they're in Johnson City.
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 1: Clearly they've been there numerous times.
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 2: Willis was there with them. He didn't just take them
• 2:19:21
  Speaker 2: and then drop them off and then go back to
• 2:19:24
  Speaker 2: Georgia because he's there.
• 2:19:26
  Speaker 1: I remember this guy's an attorney. I think he's a
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 1: pretty credible witness. Okay, I mean maybe.
• 2:19:33
  Speaker 2: I think so too. I think so too. And now
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 2: we come to the best witness of them all.
• 2:19:42
  Speaker 1: Next to Wilda. The ws R were winning.
• 2:19:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, the w's are winning. Will McLay Will McClay, Betty's
• 2:19:52
  Speaker 2: next door nahor, who apparently had much animosity, animosity and
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 2: discussed simply just oozing from her mouth every time she
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 2: mentioned Willis or his mother.
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I stand for Wilma Clay Wilma. I don't
• 2:20:11
  Speaker 1: know if she's still with us, but if she has,
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 1: just let her know.
• 2:20:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, we like you well. Wilma said that
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 2: when she saw Willis, his daughter Kelly, and the same
• 2:20:26
  Speaker 2: young couple at Betty's house several times between spring and
• 2:20:29
  Speaker 2: fall and two thousand and two, but after September she
• 2:20:32
  Speaker 2: never saw the teenagers again. Then came the early morning
• 2:20:37
  Speaker 2: hours of Saturday, October fifth, Wilma stepped outside for a
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 2: smoke and spotted Willis standing by Betty's red jeep. The
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 2: jeep was packed with belongings, like someone was moving out
• 2:20:49
  Speaker 2: or trying to disappear. She watched him flick of cigarette,
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 2: grab a plastic back from the jeep and toss it
• 2:20:55
  Speaker 2: to the ground. When she went out later to grab
• 2:20:58
  Speaker 2: her newspaper, the garage door was down, but this time
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 2: the lighting side was on and the garagelt was never on.
• 2:21:06
  Speaker 1: Never hmm. This was the day they before supposedly uh
• 2:21:14
  Speaker 1: Adam was killed. I think the uh the bug bug
• 2:21:21
  Speaker 1: person uh determined that his day of death was the sixth,
• 2:21:26
  Speaker 1: if I remember. I think so based on the pepe
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 1: so personally, though, my favorite will McLeay moment is when
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 1: Willis is cross examining her, because remember he's representing, he
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 1: gets across everybody. Okay, oh man, I wish I could
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 1: have seen this trial all right. So he's cross examining
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 1: her and he says, you didn't get along with Beddy Hawk,
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 1: did you? And Wilda was all like, no, nobody did.
• 2:21:57
  Speaker 1: She was low life evil, just like yes, spicy Wilma, Yes,
• 2:22:06
  Speaker 1: boom my drop. And it was at this point, though,
• 2:22:08
  Speaker 1: that Judge Blackwood instructed the jury to disregard the comment
• 2:22:12
  Speaker 1: the witnesses last comment.
• 2:22:16
  Speaker 2: You know the judges bare going right.
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, go Wilma. We love Wilma and wilda, the
• 2:22:26
  Speaker 1: two w's, yes, always winning. Speaking of winning, Wilma kept winning. Okay,
• 2:22:34
  Speaker 1: because after the fact, after all this has happened, Betty's house,
• 2:22:37
  Speaker 1: to no one's surprise, was condemned and torn down. So
• 2:22:43
  Speaker 1: the Clays bought her lot. Bought her lot. They planted
• 2:22:49
  Speaker 1: some trees and let what was once a sight of
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 1: horrific darkness be overrun by nature's beauty, which Captain is like, girl,
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 1: it is too, but you know what, still.
• 2:23:03
  Speaker 2: It has to look better than that house did because
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 2: we saw the inside, so you know, the outside was
• 2:23:07
  Speaker 2: disgusting too.
• 2:23:08
  Speaker 1: Oh we went too far. I think I'm gonna accidentally
• 2:23:12
  Speaker 1: click something. There we go. No, I won't touch anything, amos. No, no, no,
• 2:23:18
  Speaker 1: hands don't see you can see my hands, you do it?
• 2:23:21
  Speaker 2: There we go. There's the pretty lot. That's where the
• 2:23:24
  Speaker 2: house was, right. I took that picture too the other day.
• 2:23:31
  Speaker 2: I would have that a little bit.
• 2:23:33
  Speaker 1: Definitely. What is that like an apple tree or.
• 2:23:37
  Speaker 2: There's an apple tree? Yeah?
• 2:23:38
  Speaker 1: And you see that definitely?
• 2:23:40
  Speaker 2: You see that that shed over to the left, yes,
• 2:23:45
  Speaker 2: or the picture that is uh, Wilma's properties on that side.
• 2:23:49
  Speaker 2: Their house is over there. Okay, Well, the plays is
• 2:23:52
  Speaker 2: over there and on that that fence that's behind him,
• 2:23:57
  Speaker 2: that would be Maurice's property for her house, that chamelink
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 2: fence on the other side of that chainlink fence. Just
• 2:24:04
  Speaker 2: say that just tells you where the houses were related
• 2:24:06
  Speaker 2: to each other. That's probably why Marie got the gift
• 2:24:09
  Speaker 2: of a sir to warrant.
• 2:24:10
  Speaker 1: Also, oh for sure, for sure.
• 2:24:16
  Speaker 2: Then there's the Samantha letter. During cross examination of Detective
• 2:24:21
  Speaker 2: Shonda Efall from the Bradley County Office Sheriff's Office, an
• 2:24:26
  Speaker 2: interesting detail came up. Our girl Wilda had given her
• 2:24:31
  Speaker 2: letter postmark October eighth, two thousand and two, sat from
• 2:24:34
  Speaker 2: Chattanooga and addressed to Betty Hawk.
• 2:24:37
  Speaker 1: Hmm hmmm. Did the letter say, gosh, we for sure
• 2:24:41
  Speaker 1: I've heard that day October eighth, one October eighth, continue, oh,
• 2:24:47
  Speaker 1: we always find him. So the letters stated that Adam
• 2:24:52
  Speaker 1: Chrismere and her brother Daniel Vasser robbed and killed Sam
• 2:24:59
  Speaker 1: Thomas and set Howard Willis up for the crime. What, oh,
• 2:25:05
  Speaker 1: my goodness, my gosh. Now we'll say that a DNA
• 2:25:11
  Speaker 1: profile taken from that envelope showed that it matched the
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 1: offspring of Samantha's mother, Patty Lemming, meaning that it came
• 2:25:20
  Speaker 1: from Samantha herself. She is the only daughter. There are
• 2:25:24
  Speaker 1: no other no other daughters in this family, so that
• 2:25:29
  Speaker 1: that is interesting. But we'll get back get back into it.
• 2:25:33
  Speaker 2: But then there was doctor Larry Miller, a handwriting expert
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 2: for the state. He examined the same letter an envelope
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 2: and agreed that the handwriting belonged to Samantha. That when
• 2:25:47
  Speaker 2: super lawyer Willis, I just had Wily Coyote just pop
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 2: in my head because I'm sure that's how he thought
• 2:25:55
  Speaker 2: of himself, you know, Wally, I'm a genius, Wally code
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 2: Press Savdary Cross. He had to admit that there was
• 2:26:03
  Speaker 2: no way to know when the letter was actually written
• 2:26:06
  Speaker 2: or who put it in the.
• 2:26:07
  Speaker 1: Mail, So, okay, it's true. I mean, I think that's
• 2:26:12
  Speaker 1: pretty safe though, to assume that this letter was from Samantha.
• 2:26:18
  Speaker 1: And I do think this is my my my theory.
• 2:26:21
  Speaker 1: This is not based on this is this is my
• 2:26:23
  Speaker 1: thought process here. But I think that it did come
• 2:26:25
  Speaker 1: from Samantha. I think that this is one of those
• 2:26:28
  Speaker 1: things that Willis told Wilda to wait for before she
• 2:26:33
  Speaker 1: called the cops about the chainsaw, you know, hiding the
• 2:26:38
  Speaker 1: chainsaw under Daniel's house and then wait for everything to
• 2:26:40
  Speaker 1: come together. I think that this was one of the
• 2:26:43
  Speaker 1: things he was referring to, because you remember that dumbass
• 2:26:46
  Speaker 1: planning had that we talked about a little while ago.
• 2:26:50
  Speaker 1: So I think that she was forced to write it
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 1: and he was. Actually, if you paid attention to the
• 2:26:56
  Speaker 1: December eighth date, we've repeated that date several times because
• 2:27:01
  Speaker 1: guess who was down by Chattanooga in Georgia talking to
• 2:27:07
  Speaker 1: the Bradley County Police. He rescheduled from October fourth to
• 2:27:12
  Speaker 1: October eighth. Yeah, oh my gosh, the same day that
• 2:27:17
  Speaker 1: the letter was postmarked. Oh my gosh. They didn't help
• 2:27:20
  Speaker 1: you at all, Willis. No idiots, God doesn't take a
• 2:27:28
  Speaker 1: rock asign just to know how dates were anyway, though,
• 2:27:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, I will say this, when you think about
• 2:27:35
  Speaker 1: what must have went down to get her to write
• 2:27:37
  Speaker 1: that letter, that poor girl, I don't think, by the way,
• 2:27:43
  Speaker 1: I don't believe anything she said to be true at all.
• 2:27:48
  Speaker 1: It's so weird how it fits, you know Willis's narrative
• 2:27:53
  Speaker 1: of what happened. And yeah, I just I don't know.
• 2:27:58
  Speaker 1: It just it discussed me, you know, I know these
• 2:28:01
  Speaker 1: two are married, but they're still babies. There's still little babies.
• 2:28:05
  Speaker 1: And uh, I hate this guy. I hate him so much.
• 2:28:10
  Speaker 2: He's awful. He's just terrible. Then TBI agent Bradley Everett
• 2:28:16
  Speaker 2: took the stand. He testified that when he tested the
• 2:28:20
  Speaker 2: white tennis shoes which were apparently bought with the pop
• 2:28:23
  Speaker 2: top air freshers at Walmart, remember that and kloes Willis
• 2:28:27
  Speaker 2: was wearing when he rested, there was no blood on them.
• 2:28:29
  Speaker 2: He also stated that no blood was from either victim
• 2:28:33
  Speaker 2: was found at Baby's house either, which is interesting because
• 2:28:37
  Speaker 2: that place was trashed.
• 2:28:38
  Speaker 1: That place was trash, it really really was. And that
• 2:28:44
  Speaker 1: does confuse me a little bit because that place was,
• 2:28:47
  Speaker 1: I know, but wrecked. There's no way you could clean up.
• 2:28:51
  Speaker 1: But there were parts of carpet. Miss. I'm not saying
• 2:28:53
  Speaker 1: they it just lucked out, is what I think. Just
• 2:28:58
  Speaker 1: because they didn't find blood doesn't mean they wasn't there,
• 2:29:00
  Speaker 1: because you could also get inconsistent results. Right when something's clean,
• 2:29:05
  Speaker 1: you know that they cleaned up blood there, but you're
• 2:29:08
  Speaker 1: not going to get that result. And I think that's
• 2:29:10
  Speaker 1: a lot. That's what happened. That's okay, So there's no
• 2:29:12
  Speaker 1: blood on the shoes he was wearing. Like, okay, and
• 2:29:17
  Speaker 1: that's not whatever gotcha you think it is, Willis.
• 2:29:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, change your shoes.
• 2:29:23
  Speaker 1: You can change your shoes at any point, like you
• 2:29:25
  Speaker 1: probably and you bought those if I remember right, the
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 1: day on that receipt is after the kids would have
• 2:29:32
  Speaker 1: been dead.
• 2:29:33
  Speaker 2: Maybe you've got replacement shoes.
• 2:29:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know exactly, That's what I'm saying. We don't
• 2:29:39
  Speaker 1: know that other ship if they're in the river, a
• 2:29:42
  Speaker 1: different river, that he.
• 2:29:45
  Speaker 2: He might have thrown those shoes in the river and
• 2:29:47
  Speaker 2: people wouldn't have that be just like she's in the river,
• 2:29:49
  Speaker 2: you see that all nobody cares.
• 2:29:53
  Speaker 1: Weapon in his mom's yards. So I don't know with
• 2:29:56
  Speaker 1: this fucking guy.
• 2:29:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, I know that was like, okay, why didn't you
• 2:30:01
  Speaker 2: throw that in the lake too, I mean you were
• 2:30:03
  Speaker 2: already there, You're already at the lake. Why would you
• 2:30:06
  Speaker 2: leave it?
• 2:30:07
  Speaker 1: Oh my god? Anyway, thank god he was an idiot.
• 2:30:11
  Speaker 1: So and to testify more about how trash the house was,
• 2:30:16
  Speaker 1: Willis called doctor Robert Allen to the Standard, who just
• 2:30:21
  Speaker 1: happened to be Betty's next door neighbor and her physician.
• 2:30:25
  Speaker 1: In two thousand and two, he testified that around September fifteenth,
• 2:30:31
  Speaker 1: Betty had been hospitalized after showing psychotic behavior, paranoia, and anxiety.
• 2:30:39
  Speaker 1: And this man does have a story. He does. I'm
• 2:30:42
  Speaker 1: gonna get into it till after.
• 2:30:44
  Speaker 2: You're here just a second. When you went into her
• 2:30:47
  Speaker 2: house that same month, he said that it looked like
• 2:30:49
  Speaker 2: something out of a horror movie. Graffiti on the walls,
• 2:30:53
  Speaker 2: appliants slipped over, busted toilets that bothers me a lot
• 2:30:58
  Speaker 2: for some reason, and food crawling with insects and maggots.
• 2:31:02
  Speaker 2: Damn it. Well, enough with the maggots, okay, in this
• 2:31:04
  Speaker 2: story everywhere. Doctor Allen even wrote a letter to Betty's
• 2:31:10
  Speaker 2: insurance company a couple of days later to confirm the
• 2:31:14
  Speaker 2: damage of her vandalism. Playing Now, okay, this is a doctor,
• 2:31:18
  Speaker 2: a physician type doctor. Okay, he's probably a really good
• 2:31:23
  Speaker 2: witness for this insurance company at this time.
• 2:31:28
  Speaker 1: But later, Lady and I, Lady Gray and I have
• 2:31:33
  Speaker 1: our own theories about this interaction. Uh, Sir, Doctor Robert
• 2:31:40
  Speaker 1: Allen does find himself in some legal trouble later as too.
• 2:31:44
  Speaker 1: Apparently many people in the story, as we learned in researching,
• 2:31:49
  Speaker 1: you know, some car chase driving under the influence, having
• 2:31:54
  Speaker 1: a gun he wasn't supposed to do drugs, vandalizing his
• 2:31:58
  Speaker 1: own jail cell by removing a nail. It's not that serious,
• 2:32:02
  Speaker 1: not serious, but boy do they make it sound super serious.
• 2:32:06
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but uh it's kind of weird, like why
• 2:32:10
  Speaker 1: are you having him to your insurance? But I don't know.
• 2:32:14
  Speaker 1: We have we have questions.
• 2:32:17
  Speaker 2: I got a questions about this vandalism because I'm not
• 2:32:20
  Speaker 2: so sure he was stranger vandalism, if you know what
• 2:32:23
  Speaker 2: I'm saying, I don't think so.
• 2:32:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, if he's saying that she was hospitalized for
• 2:32:28
  Speaker 1: doing all this and then her house was vandalized, which
• 2:32:31
  Speaker 1: we don't know. I don't think we actually know when
• 2:32:34
  Speaker 1: that happened.
• 2:32:35
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't see when that happened either.
• 2:32:37
  Speaker 1: I kind of find a data when it happened either.
• 2:32:39
  Speaker 1: It was sometime though in September before after I don't know, right, but.
• 2:32:45
  Speaker 2: Maybe she did it when she was having a psychotic
• 2:32:48
  Speaker 2: bird who knows. I don't know, but it's just our mess.
• 2:32:55
  Speaker 1: Mess now. Up next is Pamela Marsh, the resident manager
• 2:33:00
  Speaker 1: of a North Georgia trailer park. She testified that on
• 2:33:04
  Speaker 1: September twenty third Samantha and Adam rented a trailer there
• 2:33:08
  Speaker 1: and they weren't alone. By the way, this is going
• 2:33:11
  Speaker 1: to be their first place, just them as a married couple,
• 2:33:15
  Speaker 1: so a very big move for the two. Right. Well,
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 1: Howard Willis was with them, and he's the one who
• 2:33:23
  Speaker 1: paid their one hundred and ninety dollars deposit. So okay,
• 2:33:28
  Speaker 1: all right, mister Willis, he says, alarian. He as a humanityarian, right,
• 2:33:36
  Speaker 1: look at him. That's what I'm saying.
• 2:33:41
  Speaker 2: He had plans. I don't know. Fast forward to the
• 2:33:46
  Speaker 2: of October fourth, Pamela said Adam stopped by her trailer
• 2:33:51
  Speaker 2: to make a phone call. She overheard him telling someone
• 2:33:54
  Speaker 2: on the other end that he wanted to come home.
• 2:33:57
  Speaker 2: That says, hours later, around ten thirty p m. Adam
• 2:34:00
  Speaker 2: came back, but this time to turn in his key.
• 2:34:04
  Speaker 2: It just moves away, yeah, exactly, he just moved in.
• 2:34:10
  Speaker 2: He told her he was leaving to take care of
• 2:34:12
  Speaker 2: a sick grandmother in Virginia. Hay sat on the porch
• 2:34:16
  Speaker 2: with her for a while before Willis pulled up in
• 2:34:19
  Speaker 2: his g in his vehicle and Adam left with him.
• 2:34:22
  Speaker 2: Pamela never saw smitha Lee.
• 2:34:25
  Speaker 1: That not I will say This is one of the
• 2:34:28
  Speaker 1: few things that occurred in the story that just like
• 2:34:30
  Speaker 1: really confuses me, Like, I don't know what's going on here.
• 2:34:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know what would make them turn in a
• 2:34:37
  Speaker 1: key after two weeks. I mean, even if Howard is
• 2:34:41
  Speaker 1: paying for the place, why is he turning in his
• 2:34:45
  Speaker 1: key after two weeks? First of all? And then he
• 2:34:49
  Speaker 1: says he tells us he's crying to his mom that
• 2:34:52
  Speaker 1: he wants to come home, but he has something else
• 2:34:54
  Speaker 1: he needs to do for Howard, and then he turns
• 2:34:58
  Speaker 1: in his key, and then talking about sick grandma in
• 2:35:01
  Speaker 1: Virginia that he didn't have.
• 2:35:03
  Speaker 2: I think that was a story to that woman to
• 2:35:06
  Speaker 2: get out of maybe get out of the lease or
• 2:35:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know, to explain why he was leaving the
• 2:35:11
  Speaker 2: trailer park that strength, but maybe so she wouldn't wonder
• 2:35:16
  Speaker 2: where he was. You know, she wouldn't be one to say, well,
• 2:35:19
  Speaker 2: he didn't show back up, do you know what I'm saying.
• 2:35:22
  Speaker 1: So the twenty third, they sign the or they get
• 2:35:27
  Speaker 1: the trailer or whatever hold on one day? Did so
• 2:35:32
  Speaker 1: they get the trailer okay, on the twenty third, So
• 2:35:35
  Speaker 1: that is two days later. Two days later, on the
• 2:35:38
  Speaker 1: twenty fifth is when Samantha checks her dog into the
• 2:35:44
  Speaker 1: like little doggye hotel thing or whatever. All right, so
• 2:35:48
  Speaker 1: she's checking her dog in. And then however, many days
• 2:35:54
  Speaker 1: after that until the fourth, we know that they were
• 2:35:58
  Speaker 1: in Johnson City at the end of September because lawyer
• 2:36:01
  Speaker 1: man Solemn there right, and then somehow they come back
• 2:36:05
  Speaker 1: before the Forests, have dinner with her mom. He talks
• 2:36:09
  Speaker 1: to Pamela, like where were things supposed to go from here?
• 2:36:15
  Speaker 1: That's where a lot of my question marks are, is like, Okay,
• 2:36:18
  Speaker 1: what did him and sam then? What were their plans?
• 2:36:23
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 2:36:25
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't. I wonder if Howard rented this
• 2:36:34
  Speaker 2: for him to have a place to go, you know
• 2:36:35
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying, m and maybe And then I think
• 2:36:39
  Speaker 2: that like what I was to say, and I think
• 2:36:41
  Speaker 2: that that was one reason Adam clearly didn't like the
• 2:36:47
  Speaker 2: situation he was in. I mean when he told his
• 2:36:50
  Speaker 2: mom he wanted to come back home, but he had
• 2:36:51
  Speaker 2: to do some one more thing for hourd before he
• 2:36:54
  Speaker 2: could come back home, which I don't who knows what
• 2:36:56
  Speaker 2: that was in his head what he was told? You know,
• 2:36:59
  Speaker 2: what are you playing on?
• 2:37:01
  Speaker 3: This?
• 2:37:01
  Speaker 2: Is?
• 2:37:02
  Speaker 1: This is the part in this story where there's a
• 2:37:04
  Speaker 1: lot more questions than I could find answers. Obviously, we
• 2:37:07
  Speaker 1: were never going to get answers because sadly, Adam and
• 2:37:11
  Speaker 1: Samantha were murdered shortly after this. But something nefarious was
• 2:37:16
  Speaker 1: going on.
• 2:37:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there was something going on. Okay.
• 2:37:24
  Speaker 1: So next on the stand was Brandon Chancey Willis's son
• 2:37:30
  Speaker 1: in law. That's who's married to Brandon. Not what did
• 2:37:33
  Speaker 1: I say earlier? Bradley's Brandon. He was married to Kelly
• 2:37:37
  Speaker 1: Willis's son in law. And he's also the guy who
• 2:37:40
  Speaker 1: owned the blue jeep. Remember we talked about the red jeep,
• 2:37:43
  Speaker 1: Blue Jay, the red jeep. Anyway, he owned the blue
• 2:37:46
  Speaker 1: jeep right, and that blue jeep was parked outside Anti
• 2:37:50
  Speaker 1: Marine's homeshouse when police searched it, which is weird because
• 2:37:54
  Speaker 1: Brandon and Kelly lived in Georgia. I don't know how
• 2:37:58
  Speaker 1: has jeep made it all the way up there.
• 2:38:00
  Speaker 2: Whatever, somebody drove it there, nobody.
• 2:38:03
  Speaker 1: There for some reason. Briend said one of the jeep's
• 2:38:07
  Speaker 1: rear side windows was broken, so he covered it with
• 2:38:11
  Speaker 1: a blue tarp when it rained. Oh oh, look at that.
• 2:38:19
  Speaker 2: He also described Betty Willis as an unusually strong woman.
• 2:38:28
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, fairly, that's not an exaggeration. He claimed
• 2:38:35
  Speaker 2: she once picked up a heavy container full of tools,
• 2:38:38
  Speaker 2: chains and ropes that he, a mechanic, couldn't live And
• 2:38:43
  Speaker 2: I say, bullshit. If he couldn't lived it, she didn't lifted.
• 2:38:50
  Speaker 2: I I don't know.
• 2:38:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe she was able to throw the
• 2:38:53
  Speaker 1: chainsaw at a great distance out of a car window.
• 2:38:56
  Speaker 1: After all, I don't know. It bothers me, like, why
• 2:39:00
  Speaker 1: is there so much about how strong this old lady?
• 2:39:03
  Speaker 1: Like what is happening is.
• 2:39:05
  Speaker 2: Trying to blame his mother, oh boy mother, or at
• 2:39:13
  Speaker 2: least make her give reasonable doubt that it's him by
• 2:39:19
  Speaker 2: this incredibly strong woman who's no longer alive.
• 2:39:24
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, strongest woman in the world. You can chock
• 2:39:27
  Speaker 1: a chainsaw at her car door caring. Oh my god. Anyway, okay,
• 2:39:34
  Speaker 1: you guys. When it was Howard Willis's turn for his
• 2:39:37
  Speaker 1: closing argument, that's right, we're getting close to wrapping up
• 2:39:39
  Speaker 1: you guys, he started off politely, and thank the jury
• 2:39:44
  Speaker 1: for being there, as if they came voluntarily. No, sir,
• 2:39:49
  Speaker 1: they were summoned to listen to your stupid case, listening
• 2:39:54
  Speaker 1: to your stupid voice all right. They're not there because
• 2:39:57
  Speaker 1: they want to be there. They're there because they're legally
• 2:39:59
  Speaker 1: bound to be there. But okay, but you guys, in
• 2:40:04
  Speaker 1: true Willis fashion, he immediately launched into accusations that law
• 2:40:10
  Speaker 1: enforcement coerced him into making the statements. You know, the
• 2:40:16
  Speaker 1: statements they told Wilda to bring a tape recorder to
• 2:40:20
  Speaker 1: and record them, and the ones he said out loud
• 2:40:24
  Speaker 1: to his own mother on the jailhouse phone calls. I said,
• 2:40:27
  Speaker 1: your colleague is speeding recorded. Okay, these are recorded.
• 2:40:34
  Speaker 2: He asked the jurors to really think about why there
• 2:40:36
  Speaker 2: was no trace evidence, no blood, no bone, no flesh
• 2:40:41
  Speaker 2: found in the chainsaw that was supposedly used in the murders.
• 2:40:44
  Speaker 2: Now that he is asking them some good questions right there.
• 2:40:49
  Speaker 1: But I mean, it's a fair question if you didn't
• 2:40:54
  Speaker 1: listen to any other parts of the trial.
• 2:41:00
  Speaker 2: Forget all the other stuff, right.
• 2:41:03
  Speaker 1: Don't don't listen to all the evidence. I mean I would,
• 2:41:06
  Speaker 1: I would seriously consider that, you know, if if you
• 2:41:11
  Speaker 1: didn't leave Bilba and the police are right to the
• 2:41:14
  Speaker 1: freaking chainsaw, and you didn't confess right like, oh, I
• 2:41:19
  Speaker 1: love them to the chainsel. That has nothing to do
• 2:41:21
  Speaker 1: with these murders, but it was hidden in the woods.
• 2:41:24
  Speaker 1: Then my mom threw but it's not involved, okay, right? Oh,
• 2:41:29
  Speaker 1: and also if doctor Mona Stevens, another MVP the medical
• 2:41:34
  Speaker 1: examiner hadn't told the jury about the pair of shorts
• 2:41:38
  Speaker 1: Adam was wearing that had evidence of chainsaw activity, I mean, like,
• 2:41:44
  Speaker 1: what are you even saying? All right? And then it
• 2:41:48
  Speaker 1: appeared as if his hands and head were cut off
• 2:41:51
  Speaker 1: after he was wrapped in several layers of betting type material.
• 2:41:57
  Speaker 1: That's right, In case you guys were wondering whether there
• 2:41:59
  Speaker 1: was no blood. Nice, right, you have they wrapped them
• 2:42:04
  Speaker 1: in blankets and then did that to them. Now, I
• 2:42:09
  Speaker 1: think the blood would still get some places, but probably
• 2:42:11
  Speaker 1: not as much. Right. And plus at this point.
• 2:42:13
  Speaker 2: There, well he was and he was dead, so it's
• 2:42:17
  Speaker 2: not gonna be burting.
• 2:42:19
  Speaker 1: Correct, Yes, I mean it'll still get places, right. Oh.
• 2:42:22
  Speaker 1: And and as you can see the chainsaw that's right there,
• 2:42:26
  Speaker 1: the little blade that was on it, right, there are
• 2:42:28
  Speaker 1: bits of bone and clothing in the chainsaw blade when
• 2:42:33
  Speaker 1: it was recovered. So his hope there was no blood,
• 2:42:36
  Speaker 1: no bone, no flesh found in the train soul sir,
• 2:42:40
  Speaker 1: what are you scurious right now? Justice Shane says, this
• 2:42:46
  Speaker 1: trial always interested me. I used to live near where
• 2:42:48
  Speaker 1: this happened. Yes, is this trial line?
• 2:42:52
  Speaker 2: No?
• 2:42:53
  Speaker 1: And I'm devastated about it. I just learned about this
• 2:42:55
  Speaker 1: thanks to the lovely lady in Gray, who also lives
• 2:42:58
  Speaker 1: in Tennessee. The holy crap, I wish it was. I
• 2:43:03
  Speaker 1: have never heard of the story until Laden Gray brought
• 2:43:07
  Speaker 1: it to us.
• 2:43:08
  Speaker 2: It's sort of been a great one.
• 2:43:10
  Speaker 1: Could you imagine our faces?
• 2:43:14
  Speaker 2: Oh what this guy? We have gotten a lot of
• 2:43:20
  Speaker 2: eye rolls from lama In with so many eye rolls,
• 2:43:24
  Speaker 2: so many eye rolls.
• 2:43:25
  Speaker 1: I mean to just sit there and be like there
• 2:43:27
  Speaker 1: was none of that. Like that's literally her in that
• 2:43:31
  Speaker 1: bottom picture pointing at the shorts. You know, like this
• 2:43:36
  Speaker 1: comes from a freaking chainsaw. You guys, He's like, you
• 2:43:42
  Speaker 1: don't know that though, Yeah, you don't know that.
• 2:43:46
  Speaker 2: You just think it no good.
• 2:43:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've watched a few trials about unfortunately dismemberment,
• 2:43:55
  Speaker 1: and the bones really do tell a story. Okay.
• 2:44:03
  Speaker 2: Then came the twist that only a Willi Straker deliver.
• 2:44:07
  Speaker 2: After burning through ten attorneys, he told the jury he
• 2:44:12
  Speaker 2: still hadn't been supplied a lawyer.
• 2:44:16
  Speaker 1: Really, Sir, sir, are you serious?
• 2:44:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, he did.
• 2:44:23
  Speaker 1: It wouldn't give you a lawyer. Everybody's aspiring against me.
• 2:44:28
  Speaker 2: I'm a I'm a true American and I have that
• 2:44:31
  Speaker 2: right a lawyer.
• 2:44:36
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 2:44:40
  Speaker 2: He also accused his ex wife Wilda of perjury.
• 2:44:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, people, mister liar, liar who lies about everything.
• 2:44:55
  Speaker 2: And what can only be described as corum chaos, Wilda
• 2:45:00
  Speaker 2: bless Wilda was escorted out by the cheek Bayliff, apparently
• 2:45:04
  Speaker 2: for making faces that Willis Waite gave his closing statements.
• 2:45:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, first of all, iconic Wilda iconic again Lavio. Second,
• 2:45:15
  Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't have been able to hide my facial
• 2:45:17
  Speaker 1: expressions during this nonsense. Could you imagine me in the
• 2:45:20
  Speaker 1: core room leading, Yeah.
• 2:45:24
  Speaker 2: You be going the whole time, Bayleff will be going,
• 2:45:29
  Speaker 2: excuse me, maya, excuse me?
• 2:45:31
  Speaker 1: May just this? Jane as, does Lady and Gray have
• 2:45:35
  Speaker 1: a channel? No, she doesn't yet. No, Lady and Gray
• 2:45:40
  Speaker 1: is one of our fabulous mods. She's uh also part
• 2:45:45
  Speaker 1: of our staff, she writes, she researches. I've conned her
• 2:45:49
  Speaker 1: into guests co hosting some shows. I'm very persuasive, they say,
• 2:45:58
  Speaker 1: but no, she does do. She's starting to do war
• 2:46:00
  Speaker 1: shows here on our channel as well. So I love it.
• 2:46:04
  Speaker 1: I love it. But yes, she does all of the things.
• 2:46:07
  Speaker 1: She wears a hat of many hats I forgot.
• 2:46:12
  Speaker 2: But I don't do as much as Amos or Lama, oh,
• 2:46:22
  Speaker 2: Terry or cap. And this cappin is like the goddess
• 2:46:27
  Speaker 2: of the slide shows.
• 2:46:29
  Speaker 1: That's true, That is true. All right, Okay, where were we?
• 2:46:35
  Speaker 2: Where were we? Oh?
• 2:46:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, nonsense.
• 2:46:39
  Speaker 2: Willis pointed out that while the gun was matched to
• 2:46:42
  Speaker 2: Samantha Christmas murder, there was hey, oh god love the
• 2:46:47
  Speaker 2: ten boy, thank you, there was no DNA linking it
• 2:46:50
  Speaker 2: to him directly. Then he turned on doctor Aaron Watson,
• 2:46:55
  Speaker 2: these states, an amology expert, dismissing her as just a
• 2:46:59
  Speaker 2: doctoral candidate when she worked the case.
• 2:47:03
  Speaker 1: Now fuck you with your doctorate degree.
• 2:47:06
  Speaker 2: Okay, sir, she's probably still smarter than he was. Like,
• 2:47:12
  Speaker 2: she's just a bug lady. He admitted that some of
• 2:47:17
  Speaker 2: his own witnesses had tried to stab him in the
• 2:47:19
  Speaker 2: back blame the meetia because, as he said, who would
• 2:47:23
  Speaker 2: want to be associated with this case?
• 2:47:27
  Speaker 1: Fair enough, howard? Fair enough?
• 2:47:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, hard to argue Gregg James Bowman back into it,
• 2:47:33
  Speaker 2: didn't you.
• 2:47:35
  Speaker 1: Also, thanks for the common justice, Jane, I hope if
• 2:47:38
  Speaker 1: you let us please like subscribe hit the notification bell.
• 2:47:42
  Speaker 1: We do stuff all the time, all over the place,
• 2:47:45
  Speaker 1: so we always got something going. Oh, this week is
• 2:47:48
  Speaker 1: the one we kind into it as much. And the
• 2:47:51
  Speaker 1: first time in like six months. You would think I
• 2:47:54
  Speaker 1: took the week off. I did not. Instead, I was
• 2:47:57
  Speaker 1: working on this. I was like, do not. They're the talent.
• 2:48:01
  Speaker 1: I am busy putting this together, lady or lady, But
• 2:48:10
  Speaker 1: did anyone try to chainsaw him in the bag?
• 2:48:14
  Speaker 2: No, thesaw was over there where you can't see it
• 2:48:17
  Speaker 2: from your car.
• 2:48:19
  Speaker 1: His mom threw it so far.
• 2:48:21
  Speaker 2: Mom threw it so far.
• 2:48:24
  Speaker 1: Okay. So he also then claimed that the prosecution's entire
• 2:48:30
  Speaker 1: story was a lot. All right, listen, we have covered
• 2:48:36
  Speaker 1: how many bullshit zealous prosecution cases these last couple of
• 2:48:40
  Speaker 1: months we have, all right, and we call them out.
• 2:48:43
  Speaker 1: We called them out every single time. We we're like, nope, yes,
• 2:48:48
  Speaker 1: we think that person probably did it, but you didn't
• 2:48:50
  Speaker 1: do your job. You've covered way more than I'm comfortable, honestly,
• 2:48:55
  Speaker 1: in the.
• 2:48:56
  Speaker 2: Last couple months.
• 2:48:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a problem, it really is, right, But this
• 2:49:02
  Speaker 1: was the biggest slam dunk case. I think I might
• 2:49:04
  Speaker 1: have seen.
• 2:49:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, when you when you confess and it's recorded
• 2:49:13
  Speaker 2: and you asked to bring the tape recorder so you could.
• 2:49:16
  Speaker 1: Talk, and then you lead them to evidence.
• 2:49:22
  Speaker 2: What? Oh I know.
• 2:49:25
  Speaker 1: Now. Not only did he say that the prosecution's entire
• 2:49:29
  Speaker 1: story was excuse me a lie, he also accused Patti Lemmings,
• 2:49:33
  Speaker 1: Samantha's mother, of fabricating stories to protect her family. Says,
• 2:49:40
  Speaker 1: mister fabricator of stories. What and in case you guys
• 2:49:48
  Speaker 1: are wondering, yes, and that is mister Dna, I did
• 2:49:56
  Speaker 1: put together this spher a wipe. I only did that.
• 2:49:59
  Speaker 1: I like that one. Justice Jane says, I'm gonna have
• 2:50:05
  Speaker 1: to rewind. But yes you will, girl, Yes you will.
• 2:50:08
  Speaker 1: How a young couple, well, he actually had a daughter.
• 2:50:12
  Speaker 1: It was around the same age as this young couple.
• 2:50:16
  Speaker 1: And Samantha's older brothers knew Kelly. And then that's just
• 2:50:21
  Speaker 1: kind of how they met, right, small town ish, somebody
• 2:50:25
  Speaker 1: knows your sibling, kind of like that, right, So he
• 2:50:27
  Speaker 1: met the kids through his his daughter, and he's real.
• 2:50:34
  Speaker 2: This is creepy gross.
• 2:50:37
  Speaker 1: Oh, heymn so much. Mister DNA's hips don't lie that's true.
• 2:50:44
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'll watch Jurassic Park, watch try to wind down after.
• 2:50:47
  Speaker 2: The show's actually a good idea.
• 2:50:51
  Speaker 1: Maybe we have like a Jurassic Park marathon in the courtyard.
• 2:50:55
  Speaker 1: We should do that soon. Yes, somebody leave a note
• 2:50:59
  Speaker 1: that I said that, so tomorrow I can be like,
• 2:51:01
  Speaker 1: damn it, Lama, why you say we're gonna do things anyway?
• 2:51:07
  Speaker 1: Let's get back to this. We're almost done, guys, I promise. Okay,
• 2:51:10
  Speaker 1: sorry sidetracked.
• 2:51:12
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 2:51:13
  Speaker 1: So he says, Samantha's my mom's making umpunch stories because
• 2:51:16
  Speaker 1: I guess right, and then he goes, this isn't CSI,
• 2:51:22
  Speaker 1: he told the jury, But the technologies are still there.
• 2:51:27
  Speaker 1: Whatever the hell that's supposed to me? Like, I don't
• 2:51:31
  Speaker 1: I mean this. This seems to be they use all
• 2:51:34
  Speaker 1: of the CSI available in two thousand and two. Okay,
• 2:51:40
  Speaker 1: though according to Kapin, she did leave this in my notes.
• 2:51:43
  Speaker 1: She said that means put on your sunglasses and go
• 2:51:48
  Speaker 1: with it.
• 2:51:50
  Speaker 2: So she's thinking CSI Miami, CSI Miami.
• 2:51:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, David Caruso and this classes Yeah, he's iconic too.
• 2:52:01
  Speaker 1: I love it. Yes, dinosaurs, you know I can't say
• 2:52:07
  Speaker 1: him no to dinosaurs. You guys, I love dinosaurs, all right.
• 2:52:13
  Speaker 1: So then came another recurring theme that he again hadn't
• 2:52:18
  Speaker 1: been given a lawyer for nine months because you went
• 2:52:21
  Speaker 1: through nine or ten.
• 2:52:22
  Speaker 2: Of them, you didn't have a lawyer you had been.
• 2:52:28
  Speaker 1: And that they quote you, guys, are you ready for this?
• 2:52:33
  Speaker 1: They scrambled his brains for nine months? Sir, Your Shenanigan's
• 2:52:43
  Speaker 1: happened years before.
• 2:52:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:52:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even sommern citizens everyone else are like, dude, sit down,
• 2:52:54
  Speaker 1: you're embarrassing us. He really, yeah, I apple atcha, yes, yes, yes,
• 2:53:07
  Speaker 1: we should start writing a script right now for CSI
• 2:53:11
  Speaker 1: apple atcha.
• 2:53:14
  Speaker 2: Very good. I'm proud of you.
• 2:53:19
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
• 2:53:20
  Speaker 2: Oh yeahs guys, well yeah, but you know he wasn't finished.
• 2:53:25
  Speaker 2: Do ut finished. At one point, he even laughed and
• 2:53:28
  Speaker 2: accused the prosecution of failing to talk to anyone who
• 2:53:32
  Speaker 2: really knew Betty Hawk. Willis m I'm sure that miss Clay,
• 2:53:39
  Speaker 2: this Wilma didn't know her at all. I hadn't lived
• 2:53:43
  Speaker 2: next door to her, and I'm not proving that the
• 2:53:46
  Speaker 2: murders even happened in Washington County at all. He also
• 2:53:49
  Speaker 2: insisted he never asked will to to set anyone up.
• 2:53:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, again that one conversation may not have been recorded,
• 2:53:58
  Speaker 1: but it's kind of weird that And how will dud
• 2:54:03
  Speaker 1: found the chainsaw and he called her on the phone,
• 2:54:06
  Speaker 1: which was recorded, giving her more instructions on how to
• 2:54:10
  Speaker 1: have the fine the chainsaw exactly with the cops right there.
• 2:54:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, that's what gets me. Not only was
• 2:54:17
  Speaker 2: the recorded, the cops were there, dios. Finally, he closed
• 2:54:27
  Speaker 2: with the police, asking the jury to look at the
• 2:54:29
  Speaker 2: evidence itself and not get swayed by the big words
• 2:54:34
  Speaker 2: from the prosecution's experts. Think about where that chainsaw was found.
• 2:54:39
  Speaker 1: I have been Willis, I have been thinking about it
• 2:54:42
  Speaker 1: a lot.
• 2:54:44
  Speaker 2: It would have been right along the route for somebody
• 2:54:46
  Speaker 2: transporting in bodies to Johnson's city. And that leads gets
• 2:54:52
  Speaker 2: you off the hook howl.
• 2:54:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, so it's kind of an interesting clean there. Well,
• 2:55:00
  Speaker 1: let's remember he lied it up, but there was a
• 2:55:02
  Speaker 1: lot of truth in what he said. Just it wasn't
• 2:55:04
  Speaker 1: him when he's telling me, right, I mean, this guy, like,
• 2:55:10
  Speaker 1: I feel like my brain is scrambled from this this
• 2:55:13
  Speaker 1: story of how much he gave directions to it, like
• 2:55:17
  Speaker 1: his fucking knack quest or Google or thirty you like,
• 2:55:21
  Speaker 1: turn left, at the tig.
• 2:55:25
  Speaker 4: That you didn't know, and you'll see that one because
• 2:55:29
  Speaker 4: you look at that the name of that city, you
• 2:55:31
  Speaker 4: know what, right middle of nowhere, and.
• 2:55:36
  Speaker 1: Like that's the thing too, is I know Tennessee is
• 2:55:38
  Speaker 1: like a very rural place, okay, and then you just
• 2:55:42
  Speaker 1: so happen to know where some chainsaw is in the
• 2:55:45
  Speaker 1: middle freaking nowhere in a ditch that you had to walk, like,
• 2:55:49
  Speaker 1: get out of here, get out of here, sir, guys
• 2:55:54
  Speaker 1: and you guys. In a bold finale, which god, anybody
• 2:56:00
  Speaker 1: can find me a picture of this. I have looked
• 2:56:03
  Speaker 1: everywhere I've scoured, I watched a bunch of videos looking
• 2:56:06
  Speaker 1: for it, and nobody gave it to me. But in
• 2:56:09
  Speaker 1: a bullet finale, he rolled out a chart showing multiple
• 2:56:14
  Speaker 1: possible outcomes, basically telling the jury that unless they were
• 2:56:19
  Speaker 1: a hundred percent sure beyond a reasonable doubt, they couldn't
• 2:56:26
  Speaker 1: convict him, which sir, that it's not what that means.
• 2:56:30
  Speaker 1: First of all, okay, it's not one hundred percent Okay, wrong. Two,
• 2:56:37
  Speaker 1: I need to find out what all of his multiple
• 2:56:40
  Speaker 1: possible outcomes were, because we have heard so much.
• 2:56:48
  Speaker 2: What I know, it's like what I want to see
• 2:56:52
  Speaker 2: that I want to see that piece of well that
• 2:56:54
  Speaker 2: would have been if that was in his closing statements,
• 2:56:56
  Speaker 2: they wouldn't have probably seen anything we wouldn't be able
• 2:56:58
  Speaker 2: to see.
• 2:56:59
  Speaker 1: So that means he also made a chart in jail,
• 2:57:06
  Speaker 1: A jail chart, a jail chart. Can you imagine what
• 2:57:09
  Speaker 1: that must have look like. I don't know.
• 2:57:12
  Speaker 2: He probably did it on toilet paper. I'm well know
• 2:57:15
  Speaker 2: he was representing himself. He probably had paper, probably had some.
• 2:57:20
  Speaker 1: As Captain says, thirty fury forty eight, could have been raptors, could.
• 2:57:25
  Speaker 2: Have been sores, dynoss.
• 2:57:33
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, very crazy. Now this is what happens
• 2:57:35
  Speaker 1: when all right, lady okay.
• 2:57:39
  Speaker 2: Deliberating for a total nine and a half hours, and
• 2:57:42
  Speaker 2: to no one's surprised, this jury of six men and
• 2:57:46
  Speaker 2: six women delivered guilty verdicts for all three counts. Because
• 2:57:50
  Speaker 2: of his death fily case, the jury immediately moved into
• 2:57:53
  Speaker 2: the sentencing phase of trial.
• 2:58:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think Amy and I collected it at
• 2:58:03
  Speaker 1: the same time. Sorry, She's like, let me just do it.
• 2:58:08
  Speaker 2: Shit.
• 2:58:11
  Speaker 1: Sorry, all right. So the prosecution started by introducing autopsy
• 2:58:19
  Speaker 1: photos of Adam and Samantha's bodies that they had not
• 2:58:23
  Speaker 1: previously shown because listen, prosecutors really do try not to
• 2:58:29
  Speaker 1: show really awful photos. They really do, and they had
• 2:58:36
  Speaker 1: to wait until this moment. Right. So the photos you guys, though,
• 2:58:39
  Speaker 1: were so gruesome that one of the jurors became physically
• 2:58:44
  Speaker 1: ill and the judge had to call a recess until
• 2:58:47
  Speaker 1: the jury as a whole felt well enough to continue. Like,
• 2:58:51
  Speaker 1: holy shit, that's saying a lot o goodness.
• 2:58:58
  Speaker 2: You know they'd already seen some probably correct, But yeah,
• 2:59:02
  Speaker 2: I guess they couldn show some in the guilt phase
• 2:59:05
  Speaker 2: because they'd be too prejudicial. But you could show them
• 2:59:08
  Speaker 2: here in the penalty phase because they can.
• 2:59:12
  Speaker 1: Or the prosecution just reserved them for maximum impact in
• 2:59:19
  Speaker 1: the penalty phase. But I think your argument actually makes
• 2:59:22
  Speaker 1: a lot more sense legally.
• 2:59:24
  Speaker 2: But kind of could be both together.
• 2:59:26
  Speaker 1: It could be both. Yeah, who knows, it's as I've learned.
• 2:59:29
  Speaker 1: Who knows in Tennessee. Oh, you're about to watch The
• 2:59:33
  Speaker 1: Birdcage for the thousand times. I love that.
• 2:59:36
  Speaker 2: I love that movie. It's so funny. That might make
• 2:59:39
  Speaker 2: me feel good too, what made me laugh?
• 2:59:42
  Speaker 1: Ye need to do something happy after this, all right?
• 2:59:45
  Speaker 2: So where are we? They did then the Mothers, then
• 2:59:52
  Speaker 2: the Mothers of Adam and Smantha took the stand, and
• 2:59:54
  Speaker 2: this is one of those moments where the entire courtroom shifted.
• 2:59:58
  Speaker 2: Both women spoke about what life I had been like
• 3:00:00
  Speaker 2: since her children were found murdered. Both were under the
• 3:00:03
  Speaker 2: care of doctors on medications for depression and anxiety that's
• 3:00:08
  Speaker 2: followed every since. And I can totally understand that.
• 3:00:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now, Teresa Chris Mayer, Adam's mom, called him my baby.
• 3:00:18
  Speaker 1: She said his death shattered her ability to trust people
• 3:00:21
  Speaker 1: and even to hold down a job. She used to
• 3:00:25
  Speaker 1: write poetry, but now quote, I can no longer find
• 3:00:29
  Speaker 1: the words.
• 3:00:31
  Speaker 2: So sad, it's terrible. Then came Patty Flemming, Samantha's mother.
• 3:00:38
  Speaker 2: She walked to the stand clutching a handkerchief, her family
• 3:00:41
  Speaker 2: crying behind her. During her testimony. Earlier in the trial,
• 3:00:45
  Speaker 2: she was asked if she recognized several pieces of jewelry
• 3:00:48
  Speaker 2: her daughter was wearing when she died. She said, yes, sir,
• 3:00:52
  Speaker 2: I carry them in my purse. I carry them everywhere
• 3:00:54
  Speaker 2: I go.
• 3:00:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, God's heartbreaking right. Her voice trembled as she told
• 3:01:03
  Speaker 1: the jury that family members checked in on her constantly,
• 3:01:06
  Speaker 1: worried that she might hurt herself. Well my life has
• 3:01:11
  Speaker 1: changed forever, she said through tears. Samantha was my only daughter.
• 3:01:19
  Speaker 2: She talked about Samantha's dreams of being a vet or
• 3:01:22
  Speaker 2: maybe a lawyer, but then she said, now we'll never know.
• 3:01:26
  Speaker 2: She wrote down completely at that point, and when she
• 3:01:29
  Speaker 2: lets the stand, more than half the jurors were crying too.
• 3:01:33
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. You know, it's just one of those
• 3:01:36
  Speaker 1: moments where you're reminded at the human cost sitting at
• 3:01:42
  Speaker 1: the heart of it all right, you know, it just
• 3:01:46
  Speaker 1: scatters everywhere, the graf just like hitting all corners everywhere,
• 3:01:51
  Speaker 1: you know. And sadly, Patty Leming did die in twenty nineteen,
• 3:01:56
  Speaker 1: but I hope she found peace and is with her
• 3:01:59
  Speaker 1: daughter now.
• 3:02:03
  Speaker 2: I hope she founds me. Also, when the judge asked
• 3:02:06
  Speaker 2: Willis if he had any mitigating circumstances he wanted to
• 3:02:09
  Speaker 2: argue in court, he said, I'll let the record speak
• 3:02:13
  Speaker 2: for hisself, your honor, okay, buddy, And with that. On
• 3:02:20
  Speaker 2: June twenty first, twenty ten, is two hours after the
• 3:02:23
  Speaker 2: jury jury returned a guilty verdict, they sentenced toward Hawk
• 3:02:28
  Speaker 2: Willis to death.
• 3:02:34
  Speaker 1: Well a few months after the trial was over, Adam's
• 3:02:38
  Speaker 1: body was finally turned over to his family after eight years.
• 3:02:46
  Speaker 1: I don't see why the state had the body for
• 3:02:48
  Speaker 1: that long, to be honest, it makes no sense to me.
• 3:02:51
  Speaker 1: That seems very unnecessary, and quite frankly, I can't think
• 3:02:56
  Speaker 1: of a case off the top of my head, even
• 3:02:59
  Speaker 1: even ones a dismemberment that they held onto a victim's body.
• 3:03:04
  Speaker 2: That I think maybe the reason that Kembitt was because
• 3:03:08
  Speaker 2: of dismemberment, even though I don't know that's why, and
• 3:03:10
  Speaker 2: it seems it seems odd.
• 3:03:12
  Speaker 1: To me too.
• 3:03:13
  Speaker 2: But I did watch a movie about a case was
• 3:03:17
  Speaker 2: out west somewhere where this eighteen nineteen year old boy
• 3:03:22
  Speaker 2: was on a cross trip and he got kidnapped by
• 3:03:25
  Speaker 2: some people in his car and they end up killing him,
• 3:03:28
  Speaker 2: and they that family didn't get his body for until
• 3:03:32
  Speaker 2: the trials were over, and it was about seven or
• 3:03:35
  Speaker 2: eight years like that, And I didn't understand then why
• 3:03:37
  Speaker 2: they couldn't release the body. It seemed like if you
• 3:03:41
  Speaker 2: had all the evidence.
• 3:03:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, at a certain point it doesn't matter. I
• 3:03:51
  Speaker 1: can't remember what bone doctors are not anthropologists, but they
• 3:03:57
  Speaker 1: specialized in literally dismemberant and stuff, right, I just I
• 3:04:02
  Speaker 1: don't know why eight years ridiculously long time. But either way, yeah,
• 3:04:08
  Speaker 1: you know, that was very hard on the family, you know,
• 3:04:10
  Speaker 1: because while they held on to Adam's body, Samantha's body
• 3:04:14
  Speaker 1: was laid to rest years earlier, you know. But Teresa
• 3:04:19
  Speaker 1: couldn't bury her son anyway. She said, it wasn't the
• 3:04:24
  Speaker 1: same because Adam wasn't there.
• 3:04:30
  Speaker 2: Teresa said Willis's conviction in Dycay this were bitter sweet,
• 3:04:34
  Speaker 2: sweet because justice was served, but bitter because it didn't
• 3:04:38
  Speaker 2: undo the pain or bring Adam back. Now that Adam's
• 3:04:41
  Speaker 2: body was on his way home, Christus said, there will
• 3:04:43
  Speaker 2: be a new beginning, close the page and start all
• 3:04:46
  Speaker 2: over again.
• 3:04:49
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Now, Adam's funeral was held on October first,
• 3:04:55
  Speaker 1: twenty ten, almost eight years to the day of his murder.
• 3:05:00
  Speaker 1: That's it always a means is me when dates line
• 3:05:03
  Speaker 1: up like that, I know, you know. Now Wilson's and
• 3:05:07
  Speaker 1: Son's funeral home. They did cover the cost, and Adam
• 3:05:12
  Speaker 1: was cremated and placed beside his father, so that after
• 3:05:15
  Speaker 1: all this time, Adam can finally rest where he belongs.
• 3:05:23
  Speaker 2: That's sad, I mean, I'm glad he's back where the
• 3:05:27
  Speaker 2: family can has a place to go and he's no
• 3:05:30
  Speaker 2: one he's residing. As for Howard hawk Willis, he'sa garbage.
• 3:05:37
  Speaker 2: He is still sitting on death row at the Riverband
• 3:05:40
  Speaker 2: Correctional Facility in Millageville, Georgia. He has filed appeals for
• 3:05:45
  Speaker 2: several different constitutional issues, all denied. And I read the appeal, sir,
• 3:05:51
  Speaker 2: and you really did this to yourself. You know, you
• 3:05:55
  Speaker 2: could have had a really good lawyer, maybe you wouldn't
• 3:05:57
  Speaker 2: be on sitting on death row. But oh well, it's appeal.
• 3:06:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. It was a joke, I know.
• 3:06:04
  Speaker 2: And they even brought in his rotating door of lawyers
• 3:06:07
  Speaker 2: to testify about his behavior because he tried to say,
• 3:06:10
  Speaker 2: I was forced to represent myself and that's unconstitutional, and
• 3:06:14
  Speaker 2: they said, well, you did this, you did this, you
• 3:06:16
  Speaker 2: did this. They testified about things that I'm sure we
• 3:06:21
  Speaker 2: didn't hear, but they're still things they couldn't say because
• 3:06:24
  Speaker 2: of client turny privilege. And so he asked for a
• 3:06:29
  Speaker 2: new trial based in twenty nineteen, based on new evidence,
• 3:06:34
  Speaker 2: but that was denied.
• 3:06:35
  Speaker 1: Also, it was denied. Honestly, I saw what he was
• 3:06:39
  Speaker 1: talking about, what evidence was like, Well, these witnesses didn't
• 3:06:42
  Speaker 1: tell us the way that saw this, And this and this,
• 3:06:45
  Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, but maybe if you had a lawyer,
• 3:06:47
  Speaker 1: you would have called them first and foremost. And honestly,
• 3:06:50
  Speaker 1: the things he brought up did not would not have
• 3:06:54
  Speaker 1: changed the verdict at all at all. Like he wanted
• 3:06:58
  Speaker 1: to bring up Samantha's letter again, well, I only knew
• 3:07:00
  Speaker 1: about it a month before we were supposed to go
• 3:07:02
  Speaker 1: to dry Well. Even though he had it for a
• 3:07:06
  Speaker 1: long time. His lawyers fucking had it, they him, but
• 3:07:09
  Speaker 1: he didn't look at it.
• 3:07:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably the stuff he said. I want to
• 3:07:13
  Speaker 2: want all this evidence, but then I'm not evenna look
• 3:07:15
  Speaker 2: at it.
• 3:07:15
  Speaker 1: Like again, Samantha's letter makes you look real bad, bro,
• 3:07:19
  Speaker 1: Like that is not helping your case whatsoever. And they
• 3:07:22
  Speaker 1: actually convinced me more that you did some horrific shit
• 3:07:27
  Speaker 1: to her to.
• 3:07:28
  Speaker 2: Get her to make to write that letter. Yeah I
• 3:07:31
  Speaker 2: agree with that.
• 3:07:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, Now, you guys, just this year, because yeah, he's
• 3:07:36
  Speaker 1: still love you, Willis decided to go on a hunger
• 3:07:40
  Speaker 1: strike because he's a humanitarian. You guys protest inmate health care,
• 3:07:46
  Speaker 1: facility security and the quality of food because again he's
• 3:07:52
  Speaker 1: a humanitarian. In case you forgot, you know, he's a
• 3:07:55
  Speaker 1: reputation to uphole that. After all, it's a good American,
• 3:08:00
  Speaker 1: you know, American. Don't forget that. He's true American.
• 3:08:03
  Speaker 2: That's right, true Americans.
• 3:08:09
  Speaker 1: Now, Eric Stanton, who Aaron, I'm sorry, Aaron, not Eric
• 3:08:13
  Speaker 1: Aaron Stanton, who is now a professor, but was with
• 3:08:17
  Speaker 1: the Washington County Sheriff's Office at the time of Adam's
• 3:08:21
  Speaker 1: Samantha's murders. She said Willis knows how to play the
• 3:08:26
  Speaker 1: legal system, apparently not very well though, since he's on
• 3:08:30
  Speaker 1: death row, so he's not good at it. Are you
• 3:08:36
  Speaker 1: are you Willis?
• 3:08:37
  Speaker 2: No? Yeah? Yeah. He also called him a narcissistic sociopath.
• 3:08:44
  Speaker 2: No way, I would never say that about Howard Hawk Willis,
• 3:08:49
  Speaker 2: and I will be very very surprised if the state
• 3:08:51
  Speaker 2: executes him. I think he will stall an appeal and
• 3:08:54
  Speaker 2: appeal until he dies in metropolises. He's not stupid. He
• 3:08:58
  Speaker 2: is highly intelligent. He wants to die natural causes in
• 3:09:01
  Speaker 2: prison and stick it to them and go out knowing
• 3:09:04
  Speaker 2: the stake and execute him.
• 3:09:07
  Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah, cool, well you guys, all right, Well, listen,
• 3:09:16
  Speaker 1: that wraps up our case coverage of the Howard Hawk
• 3:09:24
  Speaker 1: Willis story. All right, but before we sign off. We
• 3:09:28
  Speaker 1: do have some closing thoughts because this was a lot taken.
• 3:09:31
  Speaker 1: This is a very long podcast. Double the link that
• 3:09:35
  Speaker 1: it's supposed to be. Sorry, Terry, and I hear this
• 3:09:39
  Speaker 1: is what happens when nobody reels me in. No, I'm
• 3:09:43
  Speaker 1: just kidding. How could we not talk about all of this?
• 3:09:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, really, it's a lot, right, And I do
• 3:09:51
  Speaker 1: recommend going back and listening to it again because you're
• 3:09:54
  Speaker 1: going to pick up on a lot of dates. You're
• 3:09:55
  Speaker 1: gonna be like, wait a second, yes, yes, we heard
• 3:09:59
  Speaker 1: it correct, Yes, yes, all right, So let's do our
• 3:10:04
  Speaker 1: closing thoughts. I'll go ahead and do mine first. So
• 3:10:09
  Speaker 1: after sitting through everything, okay, the investigations, the confessions, the courtroom, courtroom,
• 3:10:17
  Speaker 1: theatrics that Willis gave us, what really hits the hardest
• 3:10:21
  Speaker 1: about this case of Howard Hawk Willis isn't just like
• 3:10:26
  Speaker 1: the horror of what he did. It's the sheer weight
• 3:10:29
  Speaker 1: of how much pain he left behind and how long
• 3:10:34
  Speaker 1: that pain kept echoing. You know, Adam and Samantha were
• 3:10:39
  Speaker 1: just two kids who should have had their whole lives
• 3:10:43
  Speaker 1: ahead of them. Adam was seventeen, Samantha was sixteen. They
• 3:10:48
  Speaker 1: were newly married and just doing the kind of reckless,
• 3:10:51
  Speaker 1: hopeful thing only young people do when they believe love
• 3:10:57
  Speaker 1: is more than the world's cruelty. Like, let's be honest,
• 3:11:00
  Speaker 1: we've all been infatuated teas of them getting married. No,
• 3:11:04
  Speaker 1: but everybody tried to stop it. What are you going
• 3:11:06
  Speaker 1: to do?
• 3:11:07
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 3:11:09
  Speaker 1: What's sad is is that in a matter of hours
• 3:11:11
  Speaker 1: they were gone, mutilated, hidden away, and turned into evidence
• 3:11:17
  Speaker 1: boxes in a courtroom. You know, in two thousand and two,
• 3:11:22
  Speaker 1: I was the same age as both of them, that's right.
• 3:11:26
  Speaker 1: Little Lama was a little lama, little teen mama in
• 3:11:31
  Speaker 1: two thousand and two as well. And I can't help
• 3:11:33
  Speaker 1: but think of all the things that I've experienced in
• 3:11:36
  Speaker 1: the last twenty three years, you know, things that they
• 3:11:39
  Speaker 1: never got to because the future they were entitled to
• 3:11:43
  Speaker 1: was stolen from them. And as a mother, my heart
• 3:11:47
  Speaker 1: aches for their mother's you know, Adam's mom, Teresa, who
• 3:11:52
  Speaker 1: described him as my baby and saying she used to
• 3:11:56
  Speaker 1: write poetry but could no longer find the words.
• 3:12:00
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 3:12:00
  Speaker 1: That's that's what grief does. It doesn't just make the person,
• 3:12:05
  Speaker 1: It doesn't just take the person you love, right, it
• 3:12:09
  Speaker 1: takes the language you use to describe love in the
• 3:12:12
  Speaker 1: first place, you know, as a saying old saying goes.
• 3:12:15
  Speaker 1: And one of my favorite grief is just a love
• 3:12:18
  Speaker 1: with no place to go. Now Patty Samantha's mom in
• 3:12:25
  Speaker 1: such despair that others had to check on her to
• 3:12:29
  Speaker 1: make sure she didn't take her own life, talking about
• 3:12:33
  Speaker 1: all the things her daughter wanted to be but never
• 3:12:36
  Speaker 1: would have the chance. And that's the part of every
• 3:12:40
  Speaker 1: true crime case that we cover, right, that the headlines
• 3:12:45
  Speaker 1: never hold on to long enough, the quiet, everyday moments
• 3:12:50
  Speaker 1: that never get to happen again. Meanwhile, over in the courtroom,
• 3:12:56
  Speaker 1: Howard Hawk Willis is giving his own version of events.
• 3:13:01
  Speaker 1: And yet, y'all we laughed a lot because this guy's
• 3:13:04
  Speaker 1: a fuck wagon. Yeah right, but we laughed because what
• 3:13:07
  Speaker 1: has happened is heinous and horrible. Okay, we mock him
• 3:13:12
  Speaker 1: because people like him, they don't deserve anything else. Okay,
• 3:13:18
  Speaker 1: you know, he turned what should have been remorse for
• 3:13:23
  Speaker 1: his actions into a performance. There's something very, very chilling
• 3:13:29
  Speaker 1: about that, right, Watching a man on trial talk like
• 3:13:33
  Speaker 1: he's just arguing with a traffic cop trying to gaslight
• 3:13:37
  Speaker 1: literally everyone that was listening, you almost forgot for a
• 3:13:43
  Speaker 1: second that this someone is accused of calling two teenagers
• 3:13:49
  Speaker 1: apart he has a monster. And then, after all that
• 3:13:55
  Speaker 1: noise of him, all the accusations, all those theatrics, what's
• 3:14:00
  Speaker 1: left is still two kids in plastic tubs and two
• 3:14:05
  Speaker 1: mothers who couldn't sleep at night. And yet this wasn't
• 3:14:10
  Speaker 1: the beginning of Willis's darkness.
• 3:14:13
  Speaker 2: No.
• 3:14:13
  Speaker 1: Remember, back earlier, when we first introduced him in the story,
• 3:14:18
  Speaker 1: there was also Sam Thomas, a man who helped, raised
• 3:14:21
  Speaker 1: and trusted Howard. Now, no one was charged for his
• 3:14:26
  Speaker 1: burder for reasons, quite frankly unbeknownst to me. They have
• 3:14:30
  Speaker 1: enough already for me, but they haven't, so they must
• 3:14:36
  Speaker 1: know more than we know. And I respect that you know.
• 3:14:38
  Speaker 1: But he too, he was shot. He was sound, shot
• 3:14:42
  Speaker 1: and dismembered, just like Adam and Samantha would be. I mean,
• 3:14:47
  Speaker 1: come on, right. And then there's Debbie Willis Howard's ex wife. Well,
• 3:14:52
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say she's the first. She might
• 3:14:53
  Speaker 1: be the second. Either way. She vanished before all of this,
• 3:14:58
  Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty six, when these kids were born. Okay,
• 3:15:03
  Speaker 1: that's how long Debby has been missing, all right, And
• 3:15:07
  Speaker 1: she's still missing to this day. No, body, no closure,
• 3:15:11
  Speaker 1: her disappearance, lingering over everything that came after, like she
• 3:15:16
  Speaker 1: was the first ghost in a long line of them.
• 3:15:20
  Speaker 1: By the time Howard Hawk Willis went on trial, it
• 3:15:24
  Speaker 1: wasn't just one tragedy, all right. It was a pattern,
• 3:15:30
  Speaker 1: a cycle, and you can't tell me otherwise. He was
• 3:15:34
  Speaker 1: a man who seemed to take people in, use them,
• 3:15:38
  Speaker 1: and then erased them, as if human life meant nothing
• 3:15:41
  Speaker 1: more to him than evidence to hide. Adam will always
• 3:15:47
  Speaker 1: be seventeen, Samantha will always be sixteen. And while their
• 3:15:53
  Speaker 1: murders have been solved, let's not forget. We still need
• 3:15:58
  Speaker 1: to get justice for Willis and Sam Thomas because their
• 3:16:04
  Speaker 1: families deserve answers as well. And I think we know
• 3:16:10
  Speaker 1: who's behind.
• 3:16:11
  Speaker 2: I think we do too, behind those that was so well,
• 3:16:16
  Speaker 2: said Lama. From start to Seeing as Howard Hawk Willis
• 3:16:20
  Speaker 2: cast blame on everyone else, he held his own private
• 3:16:24
  Speaker 2: parade of attorneys, tried to wear down prosecutors and multiple judges,
• 3:16:30
  Speaker 2: all in the lame attempt to put off the inevitable.
• 3:16:33
  Speaker 2: I don't have fruit, but I do believe he's responsible
• 3:16:36
  Speaker 2: for Davy's disappearance and most likely murder, as well as
• 3:16:40
  Speaker 2: the murder of Sam Thomas. I also think in his
• 3:16:44
  Speaker 2: mind that since he got away with those crimes, he
• 3:16:48
  Speaker 2: thought he was the smartest person in any room, and
• 3:16:50
  Speaker 2: he thought he could get away with two more murders
• 3:16:52
  Speaker 2: and go on with his life as he always had done.
• 3:16:58
  Speaker 2: For some odd reason, he thought tossing identifying body parts
• 3:17:05
  Speaker 2: into a popular and well used lake was a good
• 3:17:08
  Speaker 2: forensic countermeasure. Thank god, he's a stupid idiot, But in
• 3:17:12
  Speaker 2: this case, the lake became the first witness, and his
• 3:17:15
  Speaker 2: testimony stood for itself.
• 3:17:19
  Speaker 1: And I wonder too, like these are the only people
• 3:17:22
  Speaker 1: we know about. I know you kind of wonder if
• 3:17:26
  Speaker 1: there might be some others along the years, because to
• 3:17:30
  Speaker 1: be that brazen.
• 3:17:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like he had a lot of practice. He
• 3:17:36
  Speaker 2: had a lot of confidence in his ability to get
• 3:17:39
  Speaker 2: away with it, more than I would think even doing
• 3:17:42
  Speaker 2: the crime, but getting away with it. I can get
• 3:17:45
  Speaker 2: get away with this, I can do it.
• 3:17:47
  Speaker 1: I agree. I think there might be I don't know who,
• 3:17:51
  Speaker 1: but somebody should take a look into some things. Right now,
• 3:17:55
  Speaker 1: you guys, let's wrap up this show. You guys have
• 3:17:57
  Speaker 1: been amazing. We've been here for three hours. You're all champs,
• 3:18:01
  Speaker 1: but we just have a few more quick promos to
• 3:18:03
  Speaker 1: do before we go. If you like what you've heard tonight,
• 3:18:06
  Speaker 1: be sure to follow all of our socials and subscribe
• 3:18:08
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• 3:18:12
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• 3:18:15
  Speaker 1: a review, whatever ask of you. All of that helps
• 3:18:18
  Speaker 1: us tremendously in getting our channel out there.
• 3:18:23
  Speaker 2: Next week on True Crime in one time, Lama will
• 3:18:27
  Speaker 2: have another fabulous co host. Well, she's going to have
• 3:18:31
  Speaker 2: a fabulous co host. I should let that another rout,
• 3:18:35
  Speaker 2: the lovely Capin who I can't wait because I always
• 3:18:38
  Speaker 2: love when she's on. She always has really interesting cases.
• 3:18:41
  Speaker 2: And they will be talking about the unsold murder of
• 3:18:44
  Speaker 2: Jeanette de Palma in nineteen seventy two and why it
• 3:18:48
  Speaker 2: made the New Jersey suburbs whisper about witchcraft and human
• 3:18:52
  Speaker 2: sacrifices for decades.
• 3:18:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, all the satanic panic our heart's desire, because it's
• 3:19:02
  Speaker 1: all right. I really love that right now. If you
• 3:19:05
  Speaker 1: need more of Terry A True Crime and I, you
• 3:19:07
  Speaker 1: can always find us doing something on our True Crime
• 3:19:10
  Speaker 1: and Winetime YouTube channel. While Terry is in Europe, you
• 3:19:13
  Speaker 1: can still watch or listen to New episodes of Midday
• 3:19:16
  Speaker 1: Missing on Mondays and Wednesdays at one pm Eastern twelve
• 3:19:20
  Speaker 1: pm Central for Caush Court. You guys, I will be
• 3:19:24
  Speaker 1: live Monday, October thirteenth for the sentencing of Donna Adelson. Yes, yes, right,
• 3:19:32
  Speaker 1: and we'll probably maybe have another day of reading the
• 3:19:35
  Speaker 1: latest letters from Chad Davell if he ever uploads anny,
• 3:19:38
  Speaker 1: because he hasn't.
• 3:19:41
  Speaker 2: Company. You didn't know that, I mean a little angry
• 3:19:43
  Speaker 2: with him. I promised that.
• 3:19:47
  Speaker 1: He's busy eating a deity in stuff.
• 3:19:50
  Speaker 2: Jeez, I guess.
• 3:19:53
  Speaker 1: And I will also be doing quite a few Lama
• 3:19:56
  Speaker 1: learns about episodes for our best season Higher Members. If
• 3:20:00
  Speaker 1: you don't know what that is, it's just a show
• 3:20:03
  Speaker 1: where people have suggested things they learn about. They pick
• 3:20:06
  Speaker 1: a few topics and we learn about them together in
• 3:20:08
  Speaker 1: real time. Because that's just something I really love too
• 3:20:11
  Speaker 1: to do, is learn random, weird stuff. We just had
• 3:20:14
  Speaker 1: our first show Friday. What else did we learn about?
• 3:20:16
  Speaker 1: We learned about how to make wine, rugaroos, a roller,
• 3:20:20
  Speaker 1: rugarar roller coaster, and cedar points Chaser. The smartest dog
• 3:20:27
  Speaker 1: in the world.
• 3:20:28
  Speaker 2: Oh that was amazing. I had a Border Collie and
• 3:20:31
  Speaker 2: he knew some things, but he did not know that
• 3:20:34
  Speaker 2: many words, right at all? People who don't know that
• 3:20:38
  Speaker 2: many words. But it is a rugaroo like a chupacabra.
• 3:20:44
  Speaker 1: No, okay, no, they're very different. It's a weird one.
• 3:20:48
  Speaker 1: It's basically a casion werewolf. Okay, it's a French werewolf. Okay,
• 3:20:54
  Speaker 1: that is what I took away from it. But I
• 3:20:56
  Speaker 1: do have up for us to talk about Casun folklore
• 3:20:59
  Speaker 1: next week anyway. Memberships, speaking of, if you're not a member,
• 3:21:04
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• 3:21:06
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  Speaker 1: like to say before we go or sign off for anything? Sherry,
• 3:21:44
  Speaker 1: our lady, and Gray.
• 3:21:47
  Speaker 2: I just want to say that thank you everyone for
• 3:21:49
  Speaker 2: being here with us tonight, and thank you for having
• 3:21:52
  Speaker 2: me on as a guest and for allowing me to
• 3:21:55
  Speaker 2: bring this lowcuse with all the color and the chicanery
• 3:21:59
  Speaker 2: and chaos for everyone to listen to. Not all y'all.
• 3:22:04
  Speaker 1: When Mom was like, hey, can you guys guess co
• 3:22:07
  Speaker 1: hosts some shows in October and I'll let you pick
• 3:22:10
  Speaker 1: whatever case you guys.
• 3:22:11
  Speaker 2: Want to do.
• 3:22:12
  Speaker 1: And you're like, yeah, I'll do this one. I said, cool,
• 3:22:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know what that's about, but that sounds great.
• 3:22:18
  Speaker 1: And then my entire week became devoted to this greatness.
• 3:22:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know because I wrote it. I wrote a
• 3:22:26
  Speaker 2: pretty long script and she came back and she said,
• 3:22:28
  Speaker 2: I've beten down some rabbit holes last night, and liqu
• 3:22:30
  Speaker 2: what I did.
• 3:22:31
  Speaker 1: I added like ten more pages. No, I really do
• 3:22:39
  Speaker 1: appreciate you sharing this story, not only Howard Hawk Wills's,
• 3:22:42
  Speaker 1: but you know, Adam and Samantha, Sam Timus, Debbie Willis.
• 3:22:47
  Speaker 1: There was so much to this story. It was. It
• 3:22:52
  Speaker 1: was very captivating, and I really appreciate you bringing it
• 3:22:55
  Speaker 1: to our attention. You know, we hear a lot of cases,
• 3:22:58
  Speaker 1: but this one, this one's never I've never of this case.
• 3:23:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sure other people have. I have not so I
• 3:23:03
  Speaker 1: really appreciate that. Now, I just want to say thank
• 3:23:07
  Speaker 1: you everyone for listening and supporting us. Until next time,
• 3:23:11
  Speaker 1: take care of your mind, take care of each other,
• 3:23:13
  Speaker 1: and never stop asking the hard questions how you get
• 3:23:17
  Speaker 1: down rabbit holes? Now, everyone, go forth and be amazing nice,