Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Revisiting: Patti Smith

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Revisiting: Patti Smith · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Hey y'all, today we have the one and only Patti
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Smith on the show. Patti's the prototypical downtown New York
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: City artist. Her 1975 debut album Horses is credited as
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: one of the masterpieces of its time. It also cemented
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: her as one of rock and roll's great lyricists. But
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: her writing extends far beyond music. Her 2010 memoir, Just Kids,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: won the National Book Award for its brilliant portrayal of
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: the late 60s bohemian art scene in New York and
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Patti's experience living in the Chelsea Hotel with famed photographer
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Robert Mapplethorpe. During those years, Patti hung out with Andy
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Warhol at the factory and was mentored by great writers
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: like William S. Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg. Today, Patti publishes
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: near daily offerings of poems, songs, and serialized fiction on
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: her sub stack. It's a journal of sorts that she
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: started during the solitary days of the pandemic. On today's episode,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell talks to Patti Smith about her writing in
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: the studio Jimi Hendrix built, Electric Lady. It was there,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: she tells Malcolm, that she met Hendrix in 1970, just
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: weeks before he passed. She also talks about hanging out
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: with and writing lyrics for Janis Joplin. And she recalls
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: the fun that she had during a failed attempt to
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: cover Adele in concert. This is Broken Record, liner notes
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: for the digital age. I'm Justin Richmond. Here's Malcolm Gladwell
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: and Patti Smith.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Patti, thank you for joining us on Broken Record.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: We are here in Electric Lady Studios, a place that
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: you have a special relationship to. And little bits of
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: you are all around this place, I noticed as I
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: came in. When did you first come here? What is
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: your history with Electric Lady?
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: Well, my very first time I came was Jimmy's opening party,
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: which I think is August 26, 1970.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Jimi Hendrix.
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: Jimi Hendrix had a party to open it, and I
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: was writing record reviews and things at the time, and
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: I was invited. So I was very excited because he
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: was one of my favorite artists. And I came, but
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: I wasn't used to going to high-profile parties. And so
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: I wound up sitting on the steps and just watching
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: people go back and forth because I just didn't have
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: the nerve to go in. And Jimmy had to leave
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: the party early. I think he had a flight. He
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: was going to the Isle of Wight. And he had
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: that big festival. He was going to London in any event.
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: And he saw me sitting on the steps. I mean,
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: this was 1970. I was, you know, I had a
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: certain look, you know, I was probably appealing in a
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: certain way. And he laughed and he said, you're not going,
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: he had that really, that soft voice, not going to
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: the party, you know, I can't do it. And I said, well,
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: I'm a little shy. And he said, and he told
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: me he was shy too. He said, actually, people didn't
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: understand that about him, but he was shy. And he
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: said it was interesting how you could be such an
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: aggressive performer yet still be shy around people. And he
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: told me that he was going to go and do
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: these shows, a handful of shows. And then he was
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: going to come back, go to Woodstock and gather musicians
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: from all over the world and then have them sit
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: in a circle and and play, just like Ornette Coleman is,
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: you know, a dicophonist or whatever, out of tune, different keys,
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: instruments that didn't normally go together, meld together, play and
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: play and play till they connected and found a common language.
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: And to him, that would be the language of peace.
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: And then he left. And of course, we never saw
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: him again. He died in London. only maybe a couple
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: weeks later, a few weeks later, I think, which was heartbreaking.
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: So that was my introduction to Electric Ladies Studios. I
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: didn't even have the nerve to come inside and never
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: dreamed that I would one day be recording because I
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: was working in a bookstore and writing reviews. But subsequently,
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: I recorded my first independent single, Piss Factory, Horses here,
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: and just a plethora of other albums. Over half my
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: albums I've recorded here, including my last album. So it's
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: become quite a home for me. And in terms of
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: you mentioning bits and pieces of me here, you can't
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: imagine what an honor it is still, after all these years,
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: to walk in here and see Horses on the Wall,
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: other pictures on the wall, It means a great deal
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: to me.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: When you came in, you were pointing at a collage
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: on the wall. That's not yours, is it?
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: No, the collage is just part of the art that
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: was here. If you go in the bathroom, have you
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: gone to the bathroom here yet?
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: It's decoupage.
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: And it's the same. All the art is the same.
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: All these murals were here when the studio opened. Jimmy
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: commissioned all of these murals. And the bathrooms, the lady
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: and men's room, are all decoupage, which was very It
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: was a very late 60s thing. And, you know, varnished,
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: lots of collage material varnished over. And that is probably
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: a piece of artwork that was in one of the offices.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: But you have to go in the bathroom before you leave.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: I will be sure to. But who else was at
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: the party?
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: Do you remember?
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: No, because I was, I mean, probably Eddie Kramer. And,
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: you know, I didn't know any of these people.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: As I said, I.
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: I was working in a bookstore and I knew a
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: handful of people. I knew some writers from Max's Kansas
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: City or had met Lou Reed and a few people. But,
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: you know, these were like probably, you know, maybe there
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: were a lot of celebrities or models or producers, but
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: it wasn't part of my world. So I only cared
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: about Jimi Hendrix. So I don't know who else was
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: at the party.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: At that point, you'd been in New York for how long?
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: I came to New York in 1967, July of 1967,
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: so like a couple of years. But I went to Brooklyn.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: I moved to Brooklyn with Robert Mapplethorpe, and then we
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: moved to the Chelsea Hotel in August of 69. So
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: this was a year later. So I was still quite
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: the fledgling.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to come back to that period, but
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: I want to do this little exercise first, which is,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: you know, as I— look back on your career, it's
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: unusual in many respects, but one of the things that's
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: most unusual about it is it's like, it's really kind of,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: you can give me the exact number, it's really four
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: or five different lives.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: It's a few, yeah.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: I want you to go through your, tell me all
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: the Patti Smith lives.
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: Well, funny enough, I'm writing a book about that. So,
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: but I can, I mean, in terms of my public life,
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: my public life started quite slowly and 1971, I did,
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: you know, I came to New York, really, I wanted
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: to be an artist, a visual artist. And really, I
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: felt like language for some reason, I was also writing
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: a lot of poetry and poetry really sort of eclipsed
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: the visual arts. So I really dedicated myself to poetry
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: in the late 60s and early 70s.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: And I was working in a bookstore.
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: So I would say, That period of my life from
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: 67 to 75 was really devoted to writing poetry, starting
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: to perform publicly, and of course being greatly influenced and
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: shepherded by Robert Mapplethorpe and then Sam Shepard. These formative
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: years that I had, I was very lucky to have
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: so many good teachers and You know, in breaking my
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: life up, I would say that period from 67 to
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: 75 was my university.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: I was friends with William Burroughs.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: You've skipped?
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: Childhood.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: Life number one is— I'm not going through that with you.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: No, no, we don't have to go through it. I'm
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: just saying part one is pre-New York.
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, part one is pre-New York, but in terms of
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: the work that I do— Yeah. it would really start
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: when I came to New York. Because when I came
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: to New York, I was 20. I was excited about everything.
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: I was well-read. I had a good work ethic in
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: terms of writing and doing jobs. You know, I've been
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: working since I was about 14, whether in factories or
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: picking blueberries or working in bookstores. So in 1967, when
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: I came to New York and met Robert, That was
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: when I really, along with him, made a vow to,
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: you know, pretty much to art. Art being all the
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: fields of art. But I was, I became much more
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: devoted to poetry. And that period was really my learning period.
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: I met a lot of people who helped me along,
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: encouraged me, bought Newworth encouraged me to write lyrics. Jim
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: Carroll to write poetry. I was so lucky to know
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: William Burroughs and Gregory Corso and Allen Ginsberg. And not
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: just as friends, but teachers. They looked at my work.
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: They encouraged me. They invited me to read with them.
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: and to be somewhat part of their world.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: Were you meeting these people?
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: In the lobby of the Chelsea Hotel, mostly. I mean,
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: back then, Robert and I moved there in 69, and
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: there was the El Quixote bar next door to it,
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: and they all went there. I mean, I didn't really drink,
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: but they all went there. So you could go and
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: sit in the bar and sit next to Carl Solomon
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: or Terry Southern and William, and I had a big
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: crush on William, so... you know, we became friends. But
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: back then, everybody was around. You know, there wasn't the
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: same cult of celebrity. It was just like in the Chelsea,
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: I was living there. And so was Janis Joplin living
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: there for a while. Only we all dressed the same.
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: We all listened to the same music. They were a
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: couple years older than me, some of these people. But
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: we were of the same mindset. And yeah, some of
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: them are real well-known, but we all commingled. And, uh,
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: cause every, all of us were like, as I would say,
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: outside society, Janice Joplin was big, but also she couldn't
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: go into fancy hotels because of the way she dressed. And, um,
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: we all talked and hung out together, but I had
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: very good mentors very early on. For instance, Bobby Newworth,
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: who I recognize from being in Don't Look Back. Uh,
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: Bobby was also a painter and a songwriter is, I mean,
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: And Bobby introduced me. He was tour managing Janice Joplin
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: at the time, and she was writing material. And Bobby
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: liked my poems, and he encouraged me to write some
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: lyrics for her. You know, I had a lot of
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: encouragement from people.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: I was sort of an unusual... I was.
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: Like Holden Caulfield at the Chelsea, a little mix of
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: Holden Caulfield or Eloise at the Plaza.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I was not.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: even though I was sort of a South Jersey hick,
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: but I was really well read. And I was also
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: probably one of the few people who wasn't stoned or
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: speeding half the time because I didn't take drugs. And
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: I had a steady job, which meant I could be
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: hit for a couple of dollars.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: Here and there. I don't know.
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: I can't say why these really great people, you know,
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: took me in under their wing, but they did.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: I'm struck in that you're a, That world that you're
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: inhabiting in this sort of first stage, 67 to 75,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: how many people are like you, outsiders who come to
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: New York? I'm fascinated by the notion of people who arrive,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: the difference between arriving to New York from, as you did,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: you know, as you call yourself, a hick from South Jersey,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: difference between encountering all of what was going on culturally.
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: Well, I'll tell you one thing. I came to New
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: York for a job. That's why, I mean, in South Jersey,
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: there wasn't a lot of work. And then they had
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: the New York shipyard closed down in 1967 or 66,
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: and 30,000 people went out of work.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: And there wasn't any work.
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: I mean, you had the Columbia Record pressing plant near
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: where I lived or the Campbell Soup plant, but all
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: the factory jobs, any kind of, in Philadelphia, any kind
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: of bookstore job, anything was taken. And I had no
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: real skills. So I actually went to New York looking
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: for work. That was my first preoccupation. I wanted to
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: be an artist. I wanted to meet people like me
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: who were more outsider types or more devoted to art.
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: But the first thing I wanted to find was a job.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: New York at the time was great for people like
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: me because you could get an apartment, even if you
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: only made like $ 60 a week. you could get an
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: apartment for $ 80 a month. I mean, it might be
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: filled with cockroaches and stuff, but when you're young, I mean,
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: I didn't care. It was a really good time for
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: people like me, and they came from all over. There
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: was also the fact that a lot of kids that
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: were gay kids, which we didn't even have that term then,
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: but a lot of kids that were from all over
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: America who were thrown out by their families, disowned, or
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: were abused in their neighborhoods or down south or wherever
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: they were from, they all migrated to New York City.
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: Because New York City was, you know, you can say
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: anything about, you know, the problems with the police or stuff.
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: But at that time, considering where a lot of this
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: came from and what the kind of abuse you would
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: get if you were different, just dress indifferent, was so
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: strong that to come to a place like New York
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: City where nobody cared, you could dress the way you wanted,
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: you know, you could reinvent yourself, you could be, you know, really,
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: you know, any sexual persuasion, at least to a point,
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: at least among a like-minded society.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. How did you meet Robert Mapplethorpe?
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: I met him, you know, first I met him in
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: Brooklyn in I had nowhere to, I came to New
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: York with about $ 5 and no job and nowhere to stay.
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: I knew a couple of people who went to Pratt university,
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: but I'd forgotten that it was summertime and there was
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: nobody there. And when I went to their apartments, some
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: of them had moved out. And, uh, one of the
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: people I was looking for had moved out and Robert
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: was staying there. And, uh, I was just directed to Robert.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Ask Robert. Ask him.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: They didn't even tell me his name. Ask my roommate
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: if they know where your friend lives.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: And he did.
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: So he led me to where my friend lived.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: My friend was away.
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: And I wound up sleeping in the hallway or on
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: the stoop on the 3rd of July. Because I remember
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: I woke up at the 4th of July, you know,
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: sitting asleep on the stoop. with firecrackers going off. And
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: it was all these kids setting off firecrackers because I
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: had forgotten that it was Independence Day. And indeed, I
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: was independent. And then I just serendipitously met him a
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: couple of times. And one afternoon or one evening, he
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: sort of rescued me from a difficult situation. And we
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: started talking. And we walked around the village all night
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: for hours talking. And Robert was on acid, but I
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: had never even seen acid in person. I had only
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: read about it like in Anais Nin or Henry Miller books.
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: I'd never seen anybody on acid. And we just talked
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: all night. And then in the end, he said, do
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: you have a place to stay? And I said, no.
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: And neither did he. Because of different circumstances, neither one
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: of us had an apartment. But he had the key
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: to somebody else's apartment who was away. And then we
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: went there and sat up talking. Till dawn, and then
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: we never parted.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Until we did.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: Well, I'd found somebody like me. Somebody who had been disenfranchised.
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: Someone who had been sort of disowned by his father.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: Someone who, you know, wanted to devote himself to art.
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: You know, the perfect boy to meet at 20 years old.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, Just Kids, it's this beautiful thing about your
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: career that you've produced these transcendent things in more than
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: one genre. I mean... It's such a rare thing to have.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, I remember I didn't really know much about
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: you until I read Just Kids. I thought it was
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: one of the most beautiful love stories I've ever read.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: But then I realized, oh, this is written by someone
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: who has also produced a kind of series of iconic
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: albums as well. I mean, that kind of double threat
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: is very impressive.
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: Well, it's just the way I am. I mean, believe me,
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: when I was young, all I wanted to be was
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: an abstract expressionist painter. I would have been happy just
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: being like Joan Mitchell or de Kooning or somebody. And
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: I do produce, I have produced a lot of visual work,
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: but it's just part of me. What made it even
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: more complicated wasn't just that I wrote poetry and then,
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: you know, obviously I've written books and recorded. Then to
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: throw performing into the mix, which that was just another one.
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: I thought, oh my gosh, just Robert always used to
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: worry about me. He'd say, can't you just pick one?
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: He would worry that I would spread myself too thin,
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: but it's just part of my jumping bean personality, I suppose.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: But I do what calls me for different reasons.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Does it feel different to create music than to create
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: other kinds of art?
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: Well, I'm not really a musician. I don't create a
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: whole lot of music. I mean, I write little melodies.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: And they're often similar. It's like, left to my own devices,
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: I would be sort of a polar music player.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: Or porch song writer.
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: Because when I write things on my own, they're like
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: little porch songs. And I don't really play anything except
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: feedback and about four or five chords.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: And I don't think like a musician.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: I have a natural feel for melody and might sing
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: to myself walking down the street, but I'm not. I
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: was married to a great musician. I know I've seen
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: how a musician's mind works, you know, and I'm more
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: prone to language.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Wait, talk about this a little bit more. What exactly
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: do you mean by the way a musician's mind works?
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I can't... I'm just saying that the
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: way that I'm obsessed with writing and the way that
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: I really have to write every day. I've written almost
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: every day since I was a kid. And whether anyone
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: sees it or not, I would say 70% of my
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: writing has never been published. I am compelled to write. And... musician,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: at least my husband was compelled to translate his, you know, dreams,
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: his thoughts, his vision into music.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: And I don't really think like that.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: I'm more a performer.
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: And people say, oh, you're too modest. You don't want
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: to be called a musician. Well, I don't want to
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: be called a musician because I haven't earned that. But
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: I am a performer and I'm a strong performer and
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: I have earned that.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: And that's good enough for me.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and then come
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: back with more from Malcolm Gladwell and Patti Smith. We're
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: back with more from Malcolm Gladwell's interview with Patti Smith.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Let's go back to the many lives of Patti Smith.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: So life number one is, as you say, that period
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: ending in 75. Number two is what?
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: I would say the next stage is really, you know,
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: going out into the world, performing. having a public life,
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: which part of me is, you know, I'm very reclusive,
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: not very social, and I could spend 14 hours just
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: working on, you know, the end of chapter seven. You know,
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: I don't crave public life, but it has called to me,
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: you know, in the 70s, of course, until I left
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: in 79, I became the leader of a band.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: And I like that.
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: I like that position of being sort of having my people.
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: My brother was the head of my crew. I had
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: a small loyal group and seeing the world and having
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: some effect on people, a positive effect on people, or
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: having an effect on new artists or having an effect
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: on the disenfranchised all over the world.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: And that was meaningful.
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: So I would say that period, it was very demanding
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: and very demanding on me physically. But I would say
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: that entering public life. That took up a lot of
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: my time until the end of the 70s, which in
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: some ways, it had its great greatness and it had
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: its excitement. But in terms of being a writer, it
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: definitely interrupted my evolution and interrupted my evolution as a
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: human being. Because the stress and the demands of a
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: life like that, sometimes one develops a demanding habits or
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: you know a less caring or you might be compassionate
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: in terms of the world but in terms of interaction
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: you know i was i had a lot of hubris
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: and i had to as a girl uh moving through
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: this period of time you know i had to be
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: tough and i could be tough i could be mean
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: as a snake actually.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: What was your first important performance as a musician.
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: Well, there's a lot of them, but I would say
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: one of the most important, just in terms of comprehending
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: where we were at, was performing in London at the
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: Roundhouse in 76, when you go to Europe and I think, well,
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: whoever heard of us? We didn't have social media and
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: stuff like that. You might have your picture in some
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: rock magazines or something. And we didn't have any hits
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: or anything like that. It was a lot of word
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: of mouth. And so we went to play the roundhouse.
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: It was so packed. And there were actually young guys
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: coming through a hole in the roof, jumping down into
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: the crowd to get in. And later, when I met
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: Paul Simonon from The Clash, he told me that he
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: was one of those kids.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, really?
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: Because he didn't have the money to get in. So
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: that's how he got in.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Was that your first international tour?
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: Maybe our first job was in Brussels, which was even crazier.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: It was just that first tour. It was just suddenly
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: seeing that people liked our work in places we'd never been.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: Brussels, Finland, you know, it was awesome.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: You know, Sweden, we went to, and, you know, being from,
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: you know, a lower middle class background, and never having
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: any money to travel, getting to see all these places
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: was awesome. We didn't make all that much money or anything,
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: but we didn't care. We were getting to see the
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: world and getting to meet new people and see, you know,
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: what they were doing. And because I started out a
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: little older, because I was in my, I don't know
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: how old I was, but, you know, we had a
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: lot of younger kids, 18, 20, who wanted to do things.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: And, uh, a lot of girls checking out the situation.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: And what I always told him is I had no
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: particular gifts.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: If I could do it, you could do it.
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: If you have a vision and if you have will
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: and you have a benevolent vision that you want to
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: share with people, you know, in some guts, you can
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: do it.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: I'm curious about that era in rock and roll. Is
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: the relationship of the artist to the audience in that era, mid-70s,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: different than it is today?
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: Mine isn't. I can't say because I don't really go
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: to concerts. When I was younger, I learned a lot
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: about how to interact with the audience from Johnny Winter
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: because I had a job sort of helping with Johnny.
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: Johnny was completely colorblind. And when I was living at
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: the Chelsea's, so was Johnny. And Steve Paul, his manager,
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: actually gave me a job because I was very trustworthy. Just,
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: you know, walking with Johnny when he had to cross
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: a lot of streets and things because he couldn't tell
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: the red from the green traffic lights, things like that.
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: I went to London once with them just to make
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: sure Johnny was maneuvering the streets well. And so I
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: went to a lot of his concerts. And Johnny was
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: one of the most, in all my life, one of
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: the most electric performers I ever saw. Just such a
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: great singer, such a great guitar player and fearless. He
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: was the first person I saw jump into the crowd
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: with an electric guitar. Just so much energy and so
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: much interaction with the people, looking them straight in the eye.
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: I mean, because I was like into like Bob Dylan
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: or when I was younger, Lou Reed or the Velvet Underground.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: They all were really cool. You know, they didn't interact.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying that critically. I loved that, you know,
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: but Johnny Winter was a totally different animal. And where
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: I would have imagined I would have been more like
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: Bob Dylan because I really modeled myself after Bob Dylan,
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: I was really more like Johnny. I just, I don't
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: know where it comes from, but I can be sort
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: of like stand there like Edith Piaf and do a
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: little song. But especially when I was young, I was
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: an animal.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Tell me what that means.
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: Well, I just mean I was fearless.
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: I would jump off a piano. I went on my knees.
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: I would play like I had the loudest amplifier when
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: we played improvisation or feedback and put my foot through
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: an amp if I was pissed off.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: I just could rip.
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: I had the heaviest strings on my electric guitar. I
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: could just slide my hand and rip them out in one.
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: I ripped a pickup out of my Duosonic once. I
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: just had so much concentrated energy. And I'm not saying
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: I don't have energy now, but at 75, I pace
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: myself different. Every once in a while, though, that comes through.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: She's still there. She just paces herself.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: What is it? You call it energy. Is it frustration?
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Is it anger? Is it enthusiasm?
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: No, it's just pure energy.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Pure energy.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: And that's what you saw in Johnny Winter?
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: Because it wasn't even political. I didn't really have... I mean,
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: of course, I've always been a humanist or something, but
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: I wasn't... What I did was only political. It was
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: personally political. What I wanted to do was create space
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: for new people because I perceived that.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: I loved rock and roll. I loved it.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: I was brought up with it, danced to it, listened
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: to it, daydreamed to it, and... I didn't want to
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: see it become like stadium acts, glamorous acts, all about
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: just indulgence.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: I didn't really like the direction it was going into.
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: I wanted to preserve some of the... I mean, it
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: might seem like a lot of hubris for a young girl, that,
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: you know, but I had a lot of hubris. I mean,
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: I could have like played Coriolanus or something. I had
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: so much hubris, but I mean, think of like who
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: we lost, my generation.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: We lost, when I.
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: Was a teenager, President Kennedy got shot and then Martin
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: Luther King, you know, then Bobby Kennedy. And then, you know,
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: we have our musicians that we love. And then Brian
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: Jones died and Jimi Hendrix died and Jim Morrison died
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: and Janis Joplin died. I mean, these were like such
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: important voices. And, you know, they were just how I imagined.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: I imagined that, you know, music of the future was
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: going to be Jimi Hendrix, Coltrane, you know, all the
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: people that I loved. And we just lost them.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: Really quickly.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: Lost Coltrane early. That poetic voice that was so strong
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: in the late 60s. And I didn't want to see
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: it go. I didn't want to see it diffused into
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: some other place. But, you know, also I was highly opinionated.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: So I was just trying to kick open doors. I
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: only expected to do one record. You know, Clive Davis
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: asked me to do a record. I was amazed at that. fine,
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: I did a record and then I was just going
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: to go back to, you know, back to the bookstore,
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: back to writing poetry. But I did have an aim
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: with that record was to create space for new people,
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: for people who became Michael Stipe, you know, for whoever.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: That was my goal.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: So when you're on that initial tour of Europe and though,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: you know, the kids are climbing through the hole in
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: the roof to get into the crowd, is that what they're,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: that's what they're responding to?
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: I didn't take it personally. Like, they were responding to me.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: They were responding to something new that they could do
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: themselves or maybe eclipse.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: And that's what I wanted.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: I didn't want to be the king or queen or
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: princess of anything. I just wanted to, you know, shake
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: things up.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: What were you playing in those concerts? Other than your
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: own work, what were you playing?
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, my own work also incorporated, you know,
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: our version of Land of a Thousand Dances and Gloria.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: And just our songs, reggae songs. If I liked a
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: certain R & B song, we'd try it. But mostly
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: our own stuff.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Is there a difference in the way you approach covering
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: a song versus one of your own?
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: It depends on the song.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: Like sometimes Land of a Thousand Dances, really a catalyst
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: for an apocalypse, you know. It was sometimes a song,
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: because I was just starting out. We started out with piano,
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: like Lenny K, my pianist, and I. And it was basically,
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: we started out musically, mostly for three chord songs that
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: I could rap over. I wasn't particularly a great singer.
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: I didn't know much about singing. I mean, I sang
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: in like the school choir and stuff, but it was
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: more a vehicle for me to improvise poetry. You know,
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: horses grew from a lot of improvisation, like being at
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: CBGBs and doing a 22-minute version of Land of a
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: Thousand Dances that was a lot of poetry. And that's
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: why I think like William Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg and Gregory,
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: they like me. They like the fusion of this energy
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: and youth, but with a semi-sophisticated aspect, poetic aspect.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: But then, you know, also.
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: There are certain songs that I'll just do as the song.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: I do it much better now because I'm a better
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: singer than I was when I was younger. I mostly
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: sang out of my nose when I was younger.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: You know, for instance, what song?
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: These days we did Blame It on the Sun by
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: Stevie Wonder. Just do a really nice, respectful version. I
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: covered Stay, the one that Rihanna and Mickey Echo did.
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: I love covering songs. Every once in a while, I
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: have a disaster where I try to cover a song
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: where I don't really have the range or the technique
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: to do that song, but I'll get so enamored with.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: A song, I'll try.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: What's an example of a disaster?
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: Oh, the worst.
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: It was Rolling in the Deep. I tried doing that,
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: and it was so bad that I just was laughing.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: And the people knew it was bad, and they were
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: just saying, do it anyway. But I just loved that.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: Chorus, you know. And I used to try to do.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: four top songs, but I couldn't quite get like Bernadette
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: or I'll Be There.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: I'd love these great choruses.
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: But I've gotten better. I do a lot of Neil
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: Young covers because I love his lyrics, but also we
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: sing pretty much in the same key. I can keep
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: the songs in Neil's key.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: And do them.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: You've never collaborated with him, have you?
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: No.
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: I mean, I've improvised on stage with them, but no,
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: I haven't really collaborated with really anybody.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: You mentioned Michael Stipe. You talked about that idea of
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: creating opportunities for others. Does he fit into that?
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: Well, Michael Stipe, when I heard his music or saw,
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: you know, sometimes Fred would watch MTV to see what
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: was happening musically. And I was very taken with REM.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: And Fred used to tease me when, you know, because
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: I'd be like washing dishes or something.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: He'd say, Tricia, your boy's on.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: And I'd come out and it would be like Michael
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: singing Losing My Religion or something. And because I really
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: liked his music. And when Fred died, my first Valentine's
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: Day without Fred, the phone rang that night and this
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: voice came over the.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: I don't think Michael would mind me. I think I've
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: told this before, but it was Michael. Michael Stipe calling
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: me from Barcelona. He was on the road and he
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: was a bit... I think he had had a couple
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: of drinks. And it had occurred to him, I guess
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: he really liked me. He really liked our music. He
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: was inspired by horses when he was younger. And it
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: occurred to him because this is the beauty of Michael.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: He's so human and has such a compassionate, empathetic sense.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: It occurred to him that I was recently widowed and
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: I was going to have my first Valentine's Day without
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: my husband, who obviously I greatly loved. So he called
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: to wish me happy Valentine's Day. And slowly, I mean,
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: eventually I got to meet him, saw his concerts. And
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: when I came to New York, it was a huge
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: challenge for me to really came financially empty-handed with my kids.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: And Michael, who I was just getting to know without
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: going into a lot of details, made it possible for
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: me to start a new life in New York City.
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: And we've been so close ever since. I mean, he
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: just did that. And, of course, it inspired me to
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: work as hard as I could to earn his trust
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: in me and also his belief in me that I
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: could get back on my feet and take care of
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: myself and my family if I just had a helping hand.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: And I'm not ashamed to say that I needed one.
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: And now we're just loving friends. It was interesting though,
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: just by chance, I got nominated to be in the
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: Hall of Fame like seven or eight times. And finally
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: I did get in, I think it was 2007, the
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: same year as Michael. And I always imagined that if
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: I ever did, I would ask Michael to speak for me.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: And Michael secretly imagined that I might speak for them
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: But neither one of us could speak for each other
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: because we both, we made it at the same time.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Did you play together that evening?
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: I'm sure we did. It's like such a blur. I mean,
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: everybody sort of played together, but I don't remember, truthfully.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: What I do remember was sitting in Michael's suite. He
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: had a beautiful suite in the hotel. I think it
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: was the Waldorf Astoria where they used to have the ceremony.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: He had a beautiful white suit on and I was
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: all in black. And we went to the elevator hand
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: in hand together. And that picture of him all in
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: white and me all in black heading to our ceremony
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: is still in my head.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Patti Smith after
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: this break. Here's the rest of Malcolm Gladwell's conversation with
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Patti Smith.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about your next life. Detroit and marriage. And
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: it seems, to an outsider, like a very dramatic change
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: in the kind of life you were living.
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, it was in the fact that I
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: went from playing for 80,000 people in a stadium in Florence,
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: which was my last job. It was just our job.
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: We had no open and act.
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: And that was my last job to living a quiet
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: life in Detroit.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: But What I've always.
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: Wanted more than anything else was simply to do good work,
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: work of quality. And I could see my future. I
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: was in Europe. I was getting quite big. I know
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: that sounds conceited, but it's the truth. 80,000 is a lot.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: We were huge We were as big as the Rolling
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: Stones in Italy, really. I mean, in terms of performing,
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: not recording-wise. But where was that all going for me
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: as an artist? I wasn't growing. I wasn't evolving as
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: a human being or as an artist. I didn't really
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: have fame and fortune goals ever. I always had a
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: goal to do something great, which is actually takes his
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: a little more conceited than thinking I want to be
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: rich and famous. I just wanted to be great, do
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: something great, to do something, you know, worthy, to do
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: something that will endure, to do something to add to
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: the pantheon of all the great work that's been done.
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: So it gave me an opportunity to really think about,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: you know, for 16 years, what direction do I want
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: to go to, to develop a writer discipline, which I did,
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: and to reacquaint myself with being a citizen and being,
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: you know, a human being, you know, who doesn't place
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: themselves in the center.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: How old are you when you get married?
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: I was 33.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: And where did you meet Fred?
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: I met him in Detroit at a job.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: You know, we played the Ford Theater in 1976. But really,
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm not comfortable with talking a lot about
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: that period of my life. It's really private. But the
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: thing is, I love my kids. I love Fred. We
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: didn't have the perfect life. It wasn't like always a paradise.
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: We had our problems. I don't mean just with each other.
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: I mean, we had, you know, things our own, you know,
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: all the things that people go through. You know, sometimes
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: it was hard. Sometimes it was financially hard because we
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: really left everything, all of our options.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: We were sort of cut off.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: But I have to say they're probably the most precious
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: years of my life. I loved Fred. I've never met
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: anyone else like him. I love my kids. He gave
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: me these, you know, a son and a daughter that,
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: you know, magnify my life. And for for myself personally,
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: I think I evolved quite a bit in that time period.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: And I became a writer, not just writing poetry late
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: at night, stoned on pot or something.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, a writer. I wrote every day.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: I developed, you know, a really strong work ethic, which
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: I still have today. And because of those years, I
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: was able to write Just Kids. That Just Kids didn't
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: come out of anywhere. It came out of all those
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: years of writing and rewriting and learning about writing.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: What's fascinating is you go from being part of this alive, diverse,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: creative community in New York, the Chelsea Hotel, all those names.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: And then in Detroit, is there a community in Detroit
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: like that? There isn't.
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, I, I didn't experience it, but Fred was
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: like a one man community. I mean, he had, first
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: of all, such a history. He was intelligent and beautiful
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: and athletic and, uh, interested in so many things, political,
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: such a good father, but he was, you know, a
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: very private man. You know, I've always been, in my life,
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: in my young life, I always had some person in
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: my life that was meaningful and that I had a
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: meaningful and fruitful relationship with. You know, it was Robert
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: and then Sam Shepard. You know, I had other relationships
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: that were important, but you know, it was important for me,
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: something I always wanted as well, not just to be
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: an artist, but to have a person in my life.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: And he was the person. So, and as I said before,
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: I have a loner aspect.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: I missed, if I.
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: Missed anything from the two things I missed the most,
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: I missed the camaraderie of my band. And my brother
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: was the head of our crew. And I missed that
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: lively relationship we had. I missed seeing him on the
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: side of the stage watching every move. I missed him
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: handing me my guitar. I missed the camaraderie. And I
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: also missed having a cafe on every street. I missed
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: New York in that way. But I came from rural
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: South Jersey. I was the oldest of four children. Came
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: from a very lively, chaotic household. So this was not
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: an unfamiliar life. No, I mean, it was a life
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: that I could adapt to. Also, I was with a
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: fellow artist and a fellow thinker.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Well, would you say you learned how to write in
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: those years? They turned you into a writer. Can you
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: talk about what that meant? I mean, you were writing every.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: It's just like anything else.
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: You know, there's that, I don't know if it's a
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: joke or like a cliche where it says writing is 1%
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: inspiration and 90% or whatever perspiration. Well, I learned about
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: that 90%. I learned about the manual labor of writing.
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: And I learned, well, it's just, it became my discipline.
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: I got up early in the morning when everyone was sleeping.
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: When I had the kids, they'd be sleeping. I'd get
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: up at five in the morning and write from five
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: to eight every morning. And then they'd get up if,
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: as they got older, get them ready for school. and
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: do whatever tasks I had to do. But I always
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: took at least three hours whenever it was to just concentrate.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: And I didn't.
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: Have the prolific skills, you know, of other writers. I
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: don't know how to explain it. It's just like anything else.
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: It's a discipline.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: It's like if you start out with your muscles weak
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: and then you start exercising or doing certain things and by,
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: you know, after several months you crave exercise, you know,
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: and then it becomes not so painful. It's just part
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: of your regimen. It's just part of the work that
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: I do. I can't really break it down. I'm just
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: simply saying by the fact that I did it every day.
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: And if you want to learn to play the oboe
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: and you're not a prodigy, you might have to work
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: harder practicing several hours a day till you get just
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: the hang of the read.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Would you share that writing with people? What were you
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: doing with it?
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: I just did it and moved on.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: I mean, I really, it's still, I have notebooks full
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: of stuff, but it's like, I just keep going. So,
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: you know, I imagine that one day I'd look back
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: or I'd sit and work on it and maybe publish it.
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: But what really happens is we really write in a
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: certain way. It's almost organic. We write the same thing
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: over and over in a different way. I'm also so
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: immersed with the present and also being at my age,
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: I finally grasped being happy with present tense that I
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: am more immersed in the writing that I'm doing now.
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: I look at all these notebooks and I know that
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: in there, there's probably some jewels, but there's probably a
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: lot of stuff that's just really the genesis of what
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: I'm writing now.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: When do you start working on Just Kids?
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: Well, Robert asked me to write it the day, well,
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: only hours before he died, which I never expected. And
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: that was in 89.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: You never expected him to ask you to write it? No.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Why didn't you expect that?
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: Well, I don't write nonfiction. I mean, I wrote poetry
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: and fairy tales and little stories. I mean, I'm not
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: a nonfiction writer. I wrote a lot of pieces about Robert,
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: about Robert's work for his catalogs and things. But what
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: he asked me to write was our story. And our
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: story was very specific because he used to have me
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: tell it to him just some nights. He'd say, tell
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: me our story. And we'd be at the Chelsea and
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: maybe we wouldn't have enough to eat and couldn't sleep.
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: And he'd say, tell me our story. And so I
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: would start, well, there was a girl. She wanted to
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: be an artist and she came to New York City.
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: And then I'd tell how we met and keep updating it.
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: So I knew what he meant by our story. It
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: was sort of a game that we played. So yeah,
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: he said, will you write our story? And I said,
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: do you want me to? And he said, you have to,
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: no one else can write it. And I perceived what
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: he wanted wasn't just for him, you know, our story
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: or the romance of our friendship, but also the genesis
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: of Robert as an artist. Because I knew more than anybody,
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: I lived with them. I watched him work for 12,
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: 13 hours sometimes on one drawing. We went through so
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: many different, shed so many skins together that I knew
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: that I had the information.
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: I knew that I had lived it. We had lived it.
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: So I promised him I'd do it, really not knowing
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: how I'd do it. I didn't have a book contract.
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: I didn't have any connection with writing a nonfiction book.
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: But then a series of things happened. My pianist, who
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: I really loved, who was only 37, died suddenly of
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: a pulmonary defect, which was terrible. When Robert died, I
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: had just had my second child. And then my husband
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: started being ill. And, you know, by the end of 94,
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: my husband died. My brother died also of the same
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: pulmonary defect as just by chance of Richard's soul. For
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: the next years, my preoccupation was how to take care
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: of my children. You know, I couldn't live the same
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: way that Fred and I had lived because I don't drive.
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: I didn't have a support system, a big support system
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: in Michigan. So I decided to take our children back
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: to New York and find work. So the book was
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: set aside. And then finally, I met an editor, Betsy Lerner,
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: who became my, not only my best friend, but my
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: savior at the time because she got me a really,
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: really great contract to write the Robert book, which gave
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: me some income. But I had so much trouble writing it.
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: I was still processing all the loss around me. My
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: life had changed again. I was now performing again, but
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: without my brother, without my pianist, and having two kids.
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: So I was negotiating a very hard C. But eventually
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: Betsy helped. She was my editor through that process and
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: it took a while. So he asked me to write
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: it in 89 and it came out 2010, which can
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: give you some idea of what a struggle it was
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: to write it. Also, I wanted it to be, I
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: wanted him to be something he would have been proud of.
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: I wanted it to be as accurate as possible and
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: to give people a sense not just of Robert and I,
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: Robert's work, but the atmosphere of our time.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: So there were a lot of challenges.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: And emotionally difficult.
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: It was emotionally difficult because it's sort of like bringing
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: Robert to life for the people was also sad. It
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: was painful, you know, and also reverberated other losses. But
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: I was so happy. I can't tell you how happy
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: I was because I vowed to him I would do it.
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: So I completed my vow. I did as I promised.
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: And once again, it's just, you know, when we did Horses,
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: I just thought, well, we'll do a record and some,
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: I was hoping like, you know, a small disenfranchised group
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: of people would like it, you know, would dig it,
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: you know, and that would be it. And with this
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: book also, I thought, well, a certain group of people
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: will like it, but that's okay.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: I've done it.
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: I've done my best, but somehow I don't really to
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: this day understand, but I mean, it won a National
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: Book Award and it's sold over well over a million
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: copies globally. It's in 43 languages. And to this date,
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: the most successful thing I ever did. I mean, I've
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: never even had a gold record. Even horses didn't go gold.
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: I don't have one gold record. And I'm not complaining
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: about that. I'm just simply, in comparison, Just Kids eclipsed
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: in terms of I don't know how other way to
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: say it, but success in that kind of success, it
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: eclipsed everything.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: Else I did.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: It's a masterpiece.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, thanks.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: You know what?
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: Johnny Depp was my first reader. And I actually was staying.
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: I was struggling with the end of it so much.
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: And I just needed to get away. And he has
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: a compound in the south of France. So.
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: He let me come to.
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: The compound and they have, he and Vanessa had renovated
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: a little chapel into a guest house. And he, you know,
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: I stayed there until I finished it. And every day
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: he would just even, he'd bring me like, because they
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: had a cook there, bring me a little tray of
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: food and leave it outside. And finally I finished it
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: and I came out.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: How long were you there?
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: I don't know, a month. I don't know. I actually,
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: I don't remember. Yeah.
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: But when I finished it and then I called in
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: all of my changes or any, you know, I went
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: through the whole thing.
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: It was done.
• 53:56
  Speaker 4: It was absolutely done. And I had my manuscript, you know,
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: with all these, all the little changes and stuff. And
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: he came to the door and I gave it to
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: him and I said, it's done. And he was the first,
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: other than Betsy or the publisher, the first person to
• 54:14
  Speaker 4: read it. And then he disappeared for like 30 hours
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: or something. And then he came back, he knocked on
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: the door and I opened it and he said, it's
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: a fucking masterpiece.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: And I was like, oh my God.
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: And I only mentioned that because you said that, you know,
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: I'm not bragging or anything, but he said that. And
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: he like meant it with all his heart. And I thought, well,
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: I don't know who's going to like this book, but
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: Johnny likes it. And he's well-read, you know, so.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because a book like yourself has
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: many different lives. You know, it's simultaneously a love story,
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: but it's also this picture of New York. It's the
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: best picture of 70s New York that I've ever read.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: If you had no interest in the love story part
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: or no interest in you or Robert Mapplethorpe, You could
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: still read it and think it's a masterpiece.
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's so nice.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: But it goes back to a question I asked at
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: the very beginning is that always in New York, the
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: weird thing about New York is the people who see
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: it most clearly and beautifully and live it most are
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: the outsiders, the ones who didn't come to New York.
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: That's interesting that you should say that. And I think
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: perhaps it's because for myself, but I think I could
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: see that like, even in the people that really struggled
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: back then, you know, I would see like Candy Darling
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: and Jackie Curtis and all these different artists that came
• 55:43
  Speaker 4: from all different places. For myself, it was gratitude because
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: I was, you know, where I came from in South Jersey,
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: there was no real culture there, not even a good library.
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: No cafe, no bookstore.
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: There was, you know, you went to Philadelphia, you could
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: get on a bus and go to Philadelphia for culture.
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: But day to day, and also because I was a
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: different kind of, I was sort of a bohemian kid.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: And, you know, I was, looked different.
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: You know, I grew up when, you know, people tease
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: their hair into beehives and, you know, wore a lot
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: of makeup. And there was a certain look to the
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: late 50s, early 60s, mid 60s. But I was, mentally,
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: I was not from my own culture. I loved the
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: people that I grew up with. They were awesome, and
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: there were great things about where I came from, and
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: I think about it very nostalgically. But culturally, there was nothing,
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: and there was no work and no real culture and
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: not a lot of people of a like.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: Mind, no real community.
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: And going to New York and sitting in the East
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: Village for a couple of nights with no work, just
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: literally roaming around looking for work, falling asleep on stoops,
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: waking up, watching all these people, all the, these people
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: that were so, you know, they all look like they were, um,
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: they could have been in, uh, Sergeant Pepper on the
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: cover of Sergeant Pepper, you know, wearing tie dye or
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: bell bottoms and people were smoking pot and books everywhere
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: and reading Allen Ginsberg and playing Ornette Coleman, you know,
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: it's just, uh, you know, and here in like, uh,
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: Jefferson airplane, like in boom boxes or it was just, uh,
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: it was such a swirl for a person like me
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: to enter. And so many great things happened to me
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: in New York. You know, nothing really bad happened to
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: me in New York. Bad things happened to people I knew.
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: But for me, it was just, I met so many
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: great people. I met great teachers, great artists, and poets.
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: I mean, not that I got friends with them, but
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, I got to shake hands with Auden.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: You know, it's just like you never knew New York City.
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: All these people were just there.
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: There wasn't people, paparazzis and people asking for cell phone pictures.
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: I remember one day I went to the, I was
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: given out flyers or something on the steps of the
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: Metropolitan Museum of Art. And then I was walking down
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: Fifth Avenue. Coming up this way was Lee Razuel, Jacqueline Onassis,
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: and Nourieff. Walking together, just talking. And I was like, oh,
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: my God. And you just pass them by and think, wow,
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: that was cool, you know. When I worked at Scribner's,
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: I used to wait on Katharine Hepburn. I waited on
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: Elizabeth Taylor and.
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: Richard Burton, you know.
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: It's just these, all these people, and it was, but
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: there was nobody running around and grabbing at them and
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: taking their picture. It was just, New York was a
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: pretty cool place, you know. And nobody asked for it.
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: It was just considered uncool. Just considered uncool. You just
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: didn't do that. You see Paul McCartney sitting in a barstool.
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: You just didn't bug him. You just didn't do that.
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: You know, it's a whole different world now. But the
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: fact that, you know, you could get apartments so cheap,
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: you could get a job, you could meet like... like-minded people.
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: I have a lot of gratitude for that period. I
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: have a lot of gratitude for the city in general,
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: for the climate in general, for the community in general.
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: There was a lot of rough spots, believe me.
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: But the overall... opportunity I'm very grateful for. And I
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: think when you have gratitude, you're going to look at
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: things different.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: We have a little time left. Talk a little bit
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: about what you're up to now. There's like, there's Patti
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: Smith in my inbox. You're in my life now. Tell
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: me a little about this. It's very exciting.
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: Well, during the pandemic, March 9th, we played the Fillmore West.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: We did two nights at the Fillmore. Then we headed
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: to Seattle to do another show. And then we were
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: about to embark on a world tour. I wanted to
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: do a world tour because I, at that point I
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: was like 72 or whatever three. And I felt it
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: was important to, while I still had good voice and
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: a lot of energy to do at least one more
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: fairly big tour. And it was really a world tour. Well,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: we flew to Seattle and then I woke up in
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: the morning and, and, uh, I put on the news,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: and it was the mayor of Seattle or the governor,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: and he was telling how they were going to go
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: into lockdown. He said, the sold-out show at State Theater,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: Patti Smith and her band, is canceled.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: And I was like, what?
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't know what was really going on.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: I knew something. I knew the aura of things. And
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: so then we left and we went home. And I thought, okay,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: we have to be in quarantine for 14 days. We
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: have jobs coming up at the end of March and
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 4: then we were going to Australia, but I thought it
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: would be okay. Never dreaming that I wouldn't be leaving
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: my house for almost two years, hardly.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: And that's what happened.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: So because I was, you know, I was 73 and
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: I have a bronchial condition, I was deemed a high risk.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 4: So I'd obviously be really careful. New York City, really,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: I mean, the amount of illness and death was like
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: a real thing. And of course, I understand the nature
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: of pandemics. I had studied the Spanish flu epidemic. I
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: was quarantined as a child with a bird flu and tuberculosis.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: And so I knew a lot about quarantines, what it
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: all meant, but I still never imagined it was going
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: to go on for so long. And I'm a restless person.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 4: I like movement. I had my little suitcase packed to
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: go away for a year, practically. And it was a
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: little hard for me to settle down.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: So I just started writing, as usual. I just wrote
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: every day.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: And I was approached by someone through Betsy from Substack,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: which is a subscription-based service. And I thought this was
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: interesting because I had been writing this diary, sort of
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: a pandemic diary, but I envisioned it to go to
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: some other places, to move into some parallel worlds, and
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: I was interested to see where it would go. And
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: the idea of doing something episodic I thought was really cool,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: you know, because like Arthur Conan Doyle and, of course,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: Dickens and then Louisa May Alcott, even Jo March, her character–
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: They did things episodically, and that's how they were paid,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: by the word back then.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: And I thought it.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: Would be real interesting, and, well, it would be a
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: challenge to be able to deliver things weekly because I
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: had been used to being on the road and getting
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: more sporadic as a writer. So I accepted that challenge,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: and I found it took me a little while to
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 4: figure out what to give the people and what they liked.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: But I've been there almost a year and I actually
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 4: love it. And it is growing in terms of what
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: I can offer the people because I can do little
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 4: videos live in time, just talk to the people or
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 4: read them a poem. I can do any kind of
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: audio I want, send them stories, send them pictures, read
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: their comments.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: And that's what I do.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm I'm developing it as we go along,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 4: and I'm letting the people at this point help me.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: Sort of guide me as to where I should go.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: So the melting is my favorite part, although it's not
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: necessarily the most popular part, but it's my favorite because
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: it's such an interesting challenge. And I love to read
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: the people's comments. Because even if you have only 50
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: comments or maybe 90 or maybe 30, when you write
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 4: a book or you put out a book, you might
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 4: get reviewed a couple of times or maybe somebody on
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: the street tells you they like it or you can
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: look at the sales. But you're not really hearing any
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: kind of real intellectual feedback. And I love the comments
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: that people write. Sometimes the comments are more poetic than
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: the post I've done. And sometimes they're really interesting or
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: they really display a real understanding of what I'm doing
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 4: because sometimes I'm attempting something a bit abstract and they're
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 4: very accepting because it's really like at this point of
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: my melting, it's regressional right now and I'm writing it
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: in time and I don't really know what I'm going
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: to write each week. And so it's sort of like,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 4: not like a drug, but it's, it can move into
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: a hallucinatory places and the people there, even if it's
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: a small amount, they're into it. And that's really inspiring,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 4: you know, and it just like yesterday I was supposed
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: to do the melting, but it was my wedding anniversary. Truthfully,
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 4: I was, sometimes I get a little sad. I really
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: miss Fred. So I did a little post for Fred yesterday. And, uh,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: so the mountains a day late, but it was really, uh,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: A lifesaver for me. I mean, it was a nice
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 4: thing to have a job, you know, because I lost
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: all of our work, which having a job helps me
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: help others. But it wasn't just that, like to have
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 4: any financial reward. It was being in lockdown, not seeing anybody,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 4: not going anywhere, and having some kind of feedback, creating
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: for people and hearing from them. That was really good.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: I love my sub stack. I'm still developing it. And
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: I think that I've gleaned that people really like knowing
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: about music. So when the melting's over, what would I do?
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: Maybe take song after song, you know, post a song,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: sing it to the people, tell them the story of
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 4: how the song was written. There's so many different things
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: that I can do if that's what the people like.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: And I also have my Instagram, which I also like.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: And they're my two social things.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: The latest iteration in the many lives of.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know, I never, you know, I don't really,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 4: it took me long enough just to get a cell
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: phone and then I wasn't engaging in any social media,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 4: but my daughter really suggested that I should have an
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: Instagram and set it up for me.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: And it's so easy to do.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 4: And I really like it because I can suggest books
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: or there's a lot of different things I can do
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: in that small You know, it's just this little thing.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: You know, you put a picture and say a few words,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 4: but you can bring people a movie they never saw
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 4: or remembering a certain person on their birthday.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: And I like that.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: Patty, I think I've occupied you for long enough. Thank you.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: I haven't done a whole lot of interviews in the
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: past couple years. And then I found the few that
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 4: I've done. I tend to, like, I'm just talking away.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: No, this is fantastic. It was fantastic. And such an honor,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: by the way, since I'm such a fan of yours.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: That was so nice what you said about the book.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: I was the equivalent when I read that book of
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: the guys falling from the ceiling.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Patti. This has been great. I really appreciate it.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: Good. Thanks to Patti Smith for sharing her inspiration and
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: story with Malcolm. You can hear her new album and
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: all of our favorite Patti Smith songs on a playlist
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: at BrokenRecordPodcast.com. And be sure to check out her sub
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: stack at pattysmith.substack.com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: channel at youtube.com slash broken record podcast, where you can
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: find all of our new episodes. You can follow us
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: on Twitter at broken record. Broken record is produced with
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Talladay, Eric Sandler,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: and Jennifer Sanchez with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia Lobel. Broken Record is a production
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and others
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is
• 1:08:50
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• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: listening for $ 4. 99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: Apple Podcast Subscriptions. And if you like the show, please
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: For Theme Music by Kenny Beats, I'm Justin Richman.