Latest / The Payments Shed / Ep. 69 - From Broken Cross-Border Payments to Agentic Commerce — Why Stablecoins Change Everything with Damisa

Transcript

Ep. 69 - From Broken Cross-Border Payments to Agentic Commerce — Why Stablecoins Change Everything with Damisa · The Payments Shed

• 0:00
  Welcome to the Payment Shed Podcast, the weekly podcast that
• 0:03
  dives into the big topics, trends and people shaping the
• 0:06
  worlds of payments, fintech and business leadership with your
• 0:09
  two Co hosts, myself Grant Evans and Justin Hannah.
• 0:13
  Welcome back to the Payment Shed Podcast.
• 0:15
  Today we are joined by Jordan Lawrence, Co founder of Demisa
• 0:19
  Jordan, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us today.
• 0:21
  Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here.
• 0:22
  And we're just talking about the the PCN connection from when it
• 0:25
  all started on my podcast. It's.
• 0:27
  So awesome to be a full circle moment.
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  Obviously a partner of ours now of PCN.
• 0:31
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, Can. You tell us a little bit about
• 0:33
  your career and payments, fintech and, and what's kind of
• 0:36
  led to the creation of Demisa and, and where you are now.
• 0:40
  Yeah, so the payments thing started probably back in the
• 0:44
  year 2001 when I started a an online surf shop, which became a
• 0:48
  quite a big, big thing across across Europe.
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  And then I I built that very early days of course in
• 0:55
  e-commerce and had this random kind of network of payments
• 0:58
  people because it was quite early e-commerce back then.
• 1:01
  Sold all that moved to the Netherlands 2006.
• 1:04
  Of course, timing there was the kind of fintech was up and
• 1:07
  coming Agen started, you know, world pay was was not even well
• 1:11
  pay. Then I think it was pivot and
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  you know, the payment space was just starting basically in
• 1:15
  Amsterdam. So we so people were asking me,
• 1:18
  look, do you know this and that person to to kind of join my
• 1:21
  e-commerce and payments team and and I had this network.
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  So I said, OK, I do know these people, but I'm going to charge
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  you for it. So set up a recruitment company
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  which was, which was PCN that became a kind of, yeah,
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  staffing, recruitment media, yeah, advisory and consultancy
• 1:38
  business and then sold that in 2023 after quite some time, so
• 1:44
  12 years. And then in 2019 started Vault,
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  which was came around because Tom Greenwood, who owned IFX at
• 1:53
  the time was a customer of PCN. He had this idea around open
• 1:57
  banking, but not necessarily the network in, in payments again.
• 2:01
  So he said, what do you think of this idea?
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  Should we do this together? And I said, sure, sounds good.
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  So we started Vault and then the rest, the rest is history I
• 2:09
  guess. So Vault was, I was there for
• 2:12
  about 6 years as the Chief growth officer, opened up the
• 2:15
  Sao Paulo offices, opened up Australia, so Sydney and then
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  came back. Vault was about 300 people at
• 2:21
  the time, quite a big company. And I had this idea around
• 2:25
  stable coins. So kind of stepped out of Vault
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  and started Demisa to do what I considered the next level of
• 2:31
  account to account payments, which of course crypto
• 2:33
  stablecoin, but. No one came to you and said,
• 2:35
  hey, what about stablecoins? Because that seems to be what
• 2:37
  convinces you to go and start a based on that intro there.
• 2:41
  There's somewhat of a stronger will, I guess there.
• 2:43
  I stayed, stayed in the accounts of accounts place for, for a
• 2:45
  while. And then, yeah, when I, when I
• 2:47
  stepped out of Vault, I couldn't really leave the, the idea
• 2:49
  alone. So I thought, I mean, I was
• 2:50
  working on the stablecoin things probably four years ago at
• 2:53
  Vault, right? Probably a bit early then, but
• 2:55
  it feels a bit early now. But yeah.
• 2:57
  And we wanted to then obviously dive into the detail on Demisa
• 3:00
  and and cross-border payments. They've obviously existed
• 3:03
  forever, but what's actually broken that needs fixing and
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  where you guys kind of getting involved with that at the
• 3:09
  moment? The term broken might be a
• 3:11
  little bit strong, but everybody uses it.
• 3:13
  You know, I don't think it's broken.
• 3:15
  I think it's working very well in certain corridors.
• 3:17
  It's it's, I guess you could call it broken in places where
• 3:21
  there's a lot of correspondent banks in the middle.
• 3:23
  So This is why Demisa is focusing on those, those markets
• 3:26
  which are not kind of G3, right. You say inefficient instead
• 3:29
  then. Very inefficient, exactly that.
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  You know, I, I had a, we had an office at PCN in Cape Town for
• 3:36
  quite some time. It was a great excuse to, to get
• 3:39
  away in the winters from Amsterdam and be down in Cape
• 3:41
  Town. But actually it was quite
• 3:43
  difficult back then to grow a business in South Africa.
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  There's a lot of HR laws around the whole whole thing.
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  So actually we closed that down and I experienced first hand, we
• 3:52
  moved, it was probably about 1/4 of $1,000,000 equivalent from
• 3:57
  South Africa, a bank in South Africa, I won't name which one.
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  It was to our offices in Hong Kong.
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  And the money literally went missing for I think it was about
• 4:04
  3 months, three months, three months.
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  It was a crazy amount of time. Yeah.
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  And, and basically I'd kind of written it off at this point and
• 4:12
  they found, they eventually found it and it turned out, but
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  it was a very long time. I think that was a very extreme
• 4:16
  example, but ultimately this was 10 years ago.
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  There was so many intermediary banks in the middle
• 4:22
  correspondent banks, and no one knew where the money was.
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  Where does that inefficiency is? Where does that inefficiency
• 4:29
  actually sit then, when when moving funds around the world?
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  So it's correspondent banking, right?
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  And that's the thing, SWIFT still works on the correspondent
• 4:38
  banks in those markets, right? And if you're moving money
• 4:41
  between Singapore and New York, London works great.
• 4:44
  Well, it's almost instant. It's a wonderful experience.
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  But in these other markets where there's so many correspondent
• 4:48
  banks in the middle, that is where I think money goes missing
• 4:51
  and and problems occur. So yeah, inefficient in these in
• 4:55
  these markets I think. Fair enough.
• 4:57
  What? What at what?
• 4:58
  Point was it that kind of aha moment before?
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  Actually I've been involved in stable coins.
• 5:04
  I'm interested, now I need to do something about it.
• 5:06
  Yeah. So the idea, and I think this is
• 5:08
  the aha moment, the idea of stable coins which came around
• 5:11
  at Vault was basically what was going around the world
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  connecting all these domestic payment systems, right?
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  So account to account payments, you can pay something from your
• 5:20
  bank account, but that was still inherently domestic, right?
• 5:24
  If you wanted to, you know, use your Dutch bank account to buy a
• 5:27
  pair of shoes in New York, you've got PayPal, MasterCard,
• 5:29
  Visa, Amex, right? He can't use your bank account
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  really. So I thought, why don't we use
• 5:33
  those domestic payment rails and have stable coins in the middle?
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  So actually on the front end, the customer in the Netherlands
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  is seeing the pair of shoes on the back end.
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  They're buying stable coins and it's just off ramping to the
• 5:43
  merchant on the other side. So kind of a global check out.
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  I still think it's a good idea by the way, I don't think
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  anybody has done it yet. But still, that was when I was
• 5:50
  really looking into the stable coin piece then.
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  And I think that was when I realised actually there's a
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  really efficient way to move money around outside of the the
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  normal rails. And then when I looked into it
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  in close detail those four years ago, it still was a bit unsafe.
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  And actually in the end it was costing more than a traditional
• 6:12
  payment on a credit card. So it wasn't very viable.
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  But now, you know, things have come down in price, things have
• 6:18
  speed up, compliance is better. So yeah.
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  Does it represent a massive opportunity maybe in emerging
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  markets where those inefficiencies have been more
• 6:27
  prevalent historically? A. 100%, I think that is, that's
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  the main, that's where demise is focusing on these markets,
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  right, where it's difficult to move money around like Africa,
• 6:36
  it's difficult to get money out of like Indonesia or certain
• 6:39
  countries in Africa. And obviously, people have been
• 6:43
  taking advantage of those countries because it's so
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  difficult. So we've got a customer in
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  Ghana, which sends business to another customer, customer of
• 6:51
  ours in Poland. And before we came along, they
• 6:53
  were paying 12% to get money from Ghana to Poland, 12% going
• 6:57
  through three different exchanges, right?
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  We come along, we charge them 3%.
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  I mean, there's still a healthy take rate, probably as much as
• 7:03
  we can get away with making it fair you got to have.
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  A good you got to have a good product margin to be willing to
• 7:10
  swallow a 12% hit, right? Oh.
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  No choice, right? There's no choice.
• 7:14
  You'd pay 12% and something, right?
• 7:15
  Yeah, this is a catering company.
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  So they a catering company. They they sell probably 120
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  million a year worth of catering equipment, ovens, industrial
• 7:24
  gases, all sorts of stuff. And in Ghana they just can't get
• 7:28
  get it. So they got to pay for it.
• 7:29
  Yeah. That was what obviously you have
• 7:33
  Demisa that's doing this right, which is which is fantastic
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  apart from the the cost and the time, which of course is
• 7:40
  extremely important to most businesses.
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  Why are traditional rails not improving what they're doing
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  today or why? Why have they chosen only now to
• 7:48
  do something about it? I think there's a lot of money
• 7:54
  being made is the answer right? So the answer is it is getting
• 7:59
  better and cheaper on traditional rails in established
• 8:02
  markets. But still in these markets where
• 8:05
  what we're saying now is inefficient, you can still take
• 8:09
  advantage and make a lot of money as a bank in these in
• 8:11
  these markets, right? And I don't want to sound like a
• 8:16
  sort of conspiracy theorist here, but it is prohibitive to
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  business. So you've got these countries
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  that are very successful in selling and doing what they're
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  doing. Isn't it in their advantage to
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  keep the markets a bit down, which could be competitive,
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  right? So if they make it prohibitive
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  to do business by charging higher costs and all the rest of
• 8:33
  it, a the banks can make loads of money and B you eliminate
• 8:36
  competition from the market. We had Eric from Velocity, I
• 8:39
  know you know, on the show a few months ago and the point he made
• 8:42
  was around think of all that money that's just sat, you know,
• 8:47
  stuck and what that can do for an economy if you can pull that
• 8:51
  out faster. So your example of, you know,
• 8:53
  that cash is there for three months, right?
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  What, what that quarter $1,000,000 would have been used
• 8:57
  for in that time. It's the same situation, right?
• 9:00
  When and I guess This is why you got is talk about not just
• 9:04
  savings, but generating businesses revenue, right?
• 9:07
  Is that why you kind of turn that off, right?
• 9:08
  It's because you're, you're getting the funds that faster to
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  then be used and they can buy more stock, they can make more
• 9:14
  sales, right. It becomes like a domino effect.
• 9:16
  Yeah, and you can make money out of this idle cash, like you say,
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  right? So if money has just gone
• 9:19
  missing or is stuck between country and country, it can be
• 9:23
  SAT in a stable coin. Well, it doesn't have to be
• 9:25
  Demisa, but we have this yield generation platform which
• 9:29
  actually you can make money out of whilst your money's just
• 9:31
  sitting around being idle. So, you know, one of the things
• 9:34
  people focus on is, you know, speed of transaction with
• 9:38
  stablecoins, which is not quite true.
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  And actually the big enterprise businesses and commodities
• 9:42
  traders, import export companies don't really care about another
• 9:45
  day of of a faster payment. What they care about is when the
• 9:49
  money isn't with them, how much money are they making out of
• 9:52
  that money, right? And that's what stablecoins are
• 9:55
  amazing for, because it's generating daily yield.
• 9:57
  Are we talking just about kind of e-commerce merchants?
• 10:00
  Are we talking about marketplaces could be talking
• 10:02
  about remittance providers with kind of is a capture all kind of
• 10:05
  conversation that many businesses should be should be
• 10:08
  having a conversation with their finance teams on.
• 10:10
  Unfortunately there's so many use cases, right?
• 10:11
  Yeah, it's a, it's a bit of a prioritisation situation.
• 10:14
  So the answer is all of it. I think what we're focusing on
• 10:18
  is, you know, import, export commodities companies are moving
• 10:21
  big amounts of money in and out countries that of course those
• 10:25
  problems are, you know, exaggerated massively when we're
• 10:28
  talking about 10s of millions rather than just a small
• 10:30
  e-commerce transaction. And for marketplaces, think
• 10:34
  about like Mango Pay, who's built an entire business around
• 10:37
  a kind of escrow service on Fiat, right?
• 10:39
  And the more money they can cram into that escrow, which is
• 10:41
  holding there, they make more interest.
• 10:44
  So we've kind of built the same, we've bought built this
• 10:46
  stablecoin based escrow system in the back end for
• 10:48
  marketplaces. So if you're moving money across
• 10:50
  borders and you don't necessarily trust the
• 10:51
  counterparty or the counterparty doesn't trust you for that
• 10:54
  matter to send the goods, you're buying a €50,000 Rolex from
• 10:57
  Chrono 24 or something, you know, then it could be from
• 11:01
  anybody. So the money sits in an escrow
• 11:03
  service on stablecoins generating yield.
• 11:06
  Everything gets ticked off the other, the other end.
• 11:07
  We've plugged in off chain verification 0 knowledge proofs
• 11:11
  so that when the goods are ticked off and everyone's happy
• 11:13
  with the result, the money gets released on a smart contract.
• 11:16
  CEI, service, infrastructure, orchestration, treasury,
• 11:20
  liquidity, so all all four of those things.
• 11:23
  That's it. Yeah, it's all-encompassing.
• 11:25
  And we are licensed in many regions, right.
• 11:27
  And where we don't have licenses, they're coming.
• 11:31
  So we're able to hold these funds for customers.
• 11:33
  And then as I say, the use cases are really abundant.
• 11:35
  So Treasury is a really big one and a complete no brainer.
• 11:38
  If a, if a company is used to waiting two days to get their
• 11:40
  money from a, from a, from a different country in a different
• 11:43
  currency, they may as well stick it in a, in a treasury account
• 11:47
  earning yield and wait the two days as well, right?
• 11:49
  And they're going to make money out of it.
• 11:50
  So that's one. And then the marketplace,
• 11:52
  marketplace escrow thing is the other you.
• 11:54
  Mentioned about licenses Difficult.
• 12:01
  I went through with Vault, that seemed more difficult.
• 12:06
  So I think it's just a process, right?
• 12:09
  We've got the license in Australia, the Australian
• 12:11
  Financial Services license, DCE, the dynamic currency exchange.
• 12:15
  We have a VASP in Poland like a lot of people and currently the
• 12:19
  CASP is on it's way. We have an MSB in Canada.
• 12:21
  But the most tricky one, I think my guy, is making things quite
• 12:25
  difficult for people in Europe. Here, for example, the Polish
• 12:29
  VASP, you cannot upgrade to a CASP at the moment because the
• 12:33
  framework doesn't exist, so you have to go out of the country to
• 12:35
  get something else. So in June, when Micah says you
• 12:38
  need to have the CASP, I think a lot of people can be in, can be
• 12:42
  in trouble. That'll be everyone's expected.
• 12:44
  It's very exciting too. It's too.
• 12:46
  Far away. Not from a license perspective,
• 12:49
  right. They say it'll be with you next
• 12:50
  week. Could be with you in two months.
• 12:51
  Yeah, if. We look at the crypto versus
• 12:54
  Fiat conversation that's rumbled on for some time as well and
• 12:57
  trusts maybe being a a challenge for the the crypto sector.
• 13:01
  And maybe it's becoming less so with stablecoin and the
• 13:03
  stablecoin use cases that we see now in the adoption that we see
• 13:06
  with it. When people hear crypto and they
• 13:09
  assume our volatility and risk. How do you guys tackle that as a
• 13:13
  conversation point if you're ever challenged on like, you
• 13:15
  know, is it secure or is it as safe as the traditional rails?
• 13:18
  The albeit the clunky processes that are there, they're kind of
• 13:21
  processes that people have known and trusted, albeit probably got
• 13:24
  frustrated with. I mean, it's, it's, it's a
• 13:27
  question that comes up all the time, right?
• 13:29
  If you talk to ACFO of an enterprise business and you
• 13:33
  start talking about crypto, they will run a mile.
• 13:35
  It's just, it's, it's, people are not ready for it yet.
• 13:38
  And so we've totally abstracted the whole crypto piece away from
• 13:43
  our, our interface, right? So you don't even you don't have
• 13:45
  to see the crypto if you don't want to.
• 13:48
  When you start explaining to treasury professionals and CFOs
• 13:52
  about the savings you're going to make about the money you're
• 13:54
  going to earn on the yield and you sort of don't really mention
• 13:59
  the crypto too much in focus, they become very interested,
• 14:02
  right? We've developed a platform where
• 14:04
  you don't have to do an API integration if you don't want
• 14:06
  to. You can test it out like a wise
• 14:07
  transfer. So test out what you have now,
• 14:10
  test out R1 on a small amount. If you like it and it works, use
• 14:13
  it. If you can see the benefits of
• 14:16
  scale of magnitude on the deposits you have on the on the
• 14:19
  yield generation, do a full integration.
• 14:22
  So I think our message is like, you know, if you don't want to
• 14:25
  trust the crypto, don't trust the crypto.
• 14:26
  Try it, if you like it, let's go.
• 14:29
  But it is a real bone of contention to many CF OS.
• 14:32
  You mentioned crypto and they don't like it.
• 14:33
  Which is crazy because most of the the legacy banks that
• 14:36
  they're probably banking with are now investing or acquiring
• 14:40
  kind of stable coin businesses or crypto businesses and that
• 14:42
  trying to enable that within their own infrastructure.
• 14:44
  Agree. Yeah, I completely agree.
• 14:46
  I mean, yeah, the banks specifically, right.
• 14:48
  And if you look at some of the banking products that are in the
• 14:51
  news at the moment, I mean, we're in, what are we in now?
• 14:55
  End of March, right, in 2026. And the private credit market
• 14:59
  seems to have completely fallen apart.
• 15:01
  So, you know, sometimes these new products that come along,
• 15:03
  which is more risky, your, your things you're working with now
• 15:05
  or actually the new, the new, let's say, the stablecoins
• 15:08
  specifically, which are backed by some of the biggest banks in
• 15:10
  the world, one to one, right? If BlackRock goes under, JP
• 15:13
  Morgan goes under, State Street goes under.
• 15:15
  I mean, the world is probably in a very bad place anyway, right?
• 15:17
  So yeah, it's probably safer than the normal banking
• 15:20
  transfers, yeah. I suppose it's one of these
• 15:22
  things around the difficulty you're having is, is open the
• 15:25
  doors, but actually when people see the product and how it
• 15:27
  works, that they could probably be sold pretty quickly on it,
• 15:30
  right? It's just getting them to to
• 15:31
  trust the product and and the brand behind it.
• 15:34
  Yeah, that's it. But it is a bit, it's a bit of a
• 15:37
  battle mentioning crypto to traditional companies.
• 15:40
  Yeah, I think it's got you mentioned there.
• 15:42
  I'm just talking to CF OS. Why should they trust And I
• 15:46
  think that's probably the biggest question they're having
• 15:48
  at the minute until they see how it works.
• 15:50
  I think being able to say don't have to invest all your tech
• 15:53
  team's time into integrate an API, just have have a look at it
• 15:59
  and if it works then we have a further conversation.
• 16:01
  I think it's an origin story, open banking or paid by banks
• 16:05
  started in gaming, gambling orchestration quite prevalently
• 16:09
  started in gaming and gambling, cryptocurrency gaming and
• 16:12
  gambling, like that association that comes with maybe the
• 16:16
  testing waters of some of these things.
• 16:18
  Then you almost have to recoin the whole thing, which of stable
• 16:22
  coin obviously has helped with that somewhat and then put
• 16:26
  regulation around it, which we're seeing with stablecoin
• 16:29
  now. So it's not speculative crypto
• 16:30
  anymore. And then traditional banks start
• 16:33
  to make the investment in those platforms and then you have up
• 16:36
  stablecoin, but backed by XYZ bank.
• 16:40
  Exactly. And then you get the adoption
• 16:42
  and it goes forward, right. And then you can say then with
• 16:45
  Fiat, does it actually deserve the level of trust that that we
• 16:47
  give it? I don't.
• 16:48
  Think so Money, money literally can go missing, right?
• 16:51
  Especially in these, as I've seen myself, three months is
• 16:55
  very extreme, but it can go. You know, I, I just come back
• 16:57
  from Africa for two weeks. I, I was at 4 different
• 16:59
  conferences down there, commodities conferences, energy
• 17:01
  trading conferences, even a gambling 1 Sigma was down, was
• 17:04
  down in Cape Town. And you know the problems are
• 17:08
  all the same, right? Money goes missing.
• 17:10
  They can't get money out of countries.
• 17:11
  Liquidity is a problem. So why do they trust the Fiat
• 17:14
  system so much over the stablecoin system?
• 17:16
  If you look at the capital controls and some of these
• 17:18
  African markets specifically, they've been in place and
• 17:22
  prohibited people doing business in that continent.
• 17:24
  So you could have a big business in in South Africa that wants to
• 17:27
  do business in Zambia. They can't because they can't
• 17:30
  get the money out. So, so they might have the best
• 17:32
  proposal in the world, something that's going to lift their
• 17:34
  business to the next level, but they can't take the project
• 17:36
  there because they can't get the money out of the country due to
• 17:38
  capital controls. But I'm sure they'll find find a
• 17:40
  way around it. But it's it's really solving
• 17:41
  problems down there. Today's episode is sponsored by
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  global mass payouts within that platform.
• 18:04
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• 18:07
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• 18:10
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• 18:14
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• 18:16
  You can learn more at ISX dot Financial.
• 18:19
  That's ISX dot Financial and a big thank you to the team at ISX
• 18:23
  for supporting the show. Sometimes businesses are getting
• 18:27
  getting in their own way, right? Exactly that.
• 18:29
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think like back to the to
• 18:32
  the point of convincing people when, when you say, look, you
• 18:36
  can move forward with that €10 million project now, 10 million,
• 18:39
  whatever dollar project now in Zambia, you know, here's how you
• 18:42
  can do it. People are like, wow, this is
• 18:44
  amazing. And also, you know, we're all
• 18:46
  from the payment space, which is great.
• 18:48
  And, and you know, when you're talking to payments people about
• 18:51
  payment problems, treasury, all the rest of it, you can say,
• 18:55
  look, I understand your problems, talk to them in their
• 18:57
  language and fix the problem. I think a lot of the time people
• 19:01
  are coming at this stable coin payment space, not from the
• 19:05
  payment space. So they're talking like crypto
• 19:07
  and, you know, zero knowledge proofs and all this stuff and
• 19:10
  people just go, OK, I've no idea what you're talking about.
• 19:12
  Please get out. Right.
• 19:13
  And so I think the payments background does help.
• 19:17
  Yeah, convince people. Education.
• 19:19
  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:20
  Seems, seems seems key. Look, we we talk about AIA lot
• 19:24
  on this show. From from a Demeter perspective,
• 19:29
  where do you see AI playing it's role within kind of the stable
• 19:32
  coin world? I mean, we have this entire AI
• 19:37
  based routing engine, what used to be card, it used to be called
• 19:40
  like a smart routing in the credit card world, right, Where
• 19:43
  we can be completely stable coin agnostic on our on our platform
• 19:46
  and route the payment using the stablecoin which is going to
• 19:49
  generate the most yield, the most cost effective time if
• 19:52
  that's what the customer wants based on every transaction.
• 19:55
  So AI is already making that a lot smoother if you see in some
• 20:00
  of these markets where the liquidity is really low.
• 20:02
  Malawi, Indonesia, some of these markets where money is hard to
• 20:06
  get out of the country, we've plugged in multiple liquidity
• 20:10
  providers in each market where we can use AI to facilitate the
• 20:16
  liquidity out of those markets by by orchestrating all the
• 20:19
  liquidity providers in that country.
• 20:20
  So we get most of the liquidity before anybody else does.
• 20:24
  Also, if you're looking at an OTC trade, because the API trade
• 20:28
  is not available because let's say the liquidity's been moved
• 20:30
  up, taken up that day and we're now on the secondary market,
• 20:34
  right? The AI will talk to the OTC desk
• 20:37
  and get the best price for the customer.
• 20:39
  So the use cases for AI and this are completely endless, right.
• 20:43
  That's not to mention the marketing is going on, the
• 20:45
  development of the platform, everything we're, we're using it
• 20:48
  quite, quite heavily. It's, it's an interesting to get
• 20:51
  your take on this because agentic commerce is the belle of
• 20:53
  the ball in payments land, particularly in the acquirer
• 20:56
  side at the moment. But when we put that agentic
• 20:59
  notion into traditional banking systems particularly and, and
• 21:05
  how that could maybe work in terms of cross-border payments
• 21:07
  with stable coins from an agentic modelling point of view,
• 21:11
  is that something that will potentially happen as well?
• 21:13
  Because the use case at the moment is go and buy my holiday,
• 21:16
  go and buy my T-shirt from Amazon or whatever.
• 21:20
  But can you, can you get to a point where it's like I want to
• 21:22
  make these five transactions today like large value
• 21:26
  transactions potentially could you, could you get to that stage
• 21:28
  with Agentic? This is the point.
• 21:30
  I think it's the large transactions which are going to
• 21:32
  be exposed and I think the fraud is going to be massive.
• 21:34
  So for every agentic payment that goes on, there's going to
• 21:38
  be another agent trying to hack into it.
• 21:40
  And so I think fraud is going to explode for the higher value
• 21:42
  ones. For the lower value ones, I
• 21:43
  think if you have a stablecoin wallet sat there with, you know,
• 21:48
  programmable money in it to pay fines, to pay smaller payments,
• 21:52
  I think it's going to be fine. I think it's very, very early
• 21:56
  and I think the the fraud levels going on using agentic payments
• 22:02
  are going to be prohibited for probably the next two or three.
• 22:05
  Years we're doing that age-old payments thing of getting very,
• 22:07
  very excited very quickly and shouting about a thing and then
• 22:11
  not real that we're not talking about the fraud element of it
• 22:14
  enough. Like I'm really agree with you
• 22:15
  there. Like the fraud side of this is
• 22:17
  going to be scary. Prohibitive, I think.
• 22:19
  Yeah, I. Think low value, low effort.
• 22:21
  I think people are quite, quite happy with right.
• 22:24
  It's no one's going to want to pay with their mortgage, right?
• 22:27
  Or like say pay it's high value items.
• 22:29
  People just don't trust it right now.
• 22:30
  You mentioned that'd be, we spoke about it before as well as
• 22:33
  this is AI trying to be fraudulent versus being defended
• 22:38
  by AI. And it comes AI versus AI and
• 22:40
  who's going to win? We just don't know.
• 22:42
  And his LMMS are getting smarter by the day, defending and
• 22:46
  attacking. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:47
  I love it. I think.
• 22:48
  I think if you could build it right and and you see it
• 22:50
  happening, we use Claude everyday.
• 22:51
  I'm sure you guys do as well, you know, and and.
• 22:54
  You've moved to Claude recently? I have moved to Claude.
• 22:56
  He was a ChatGPT fanboy over his mate.
• 22:59
  Yeah. When you get on to Claude, it's
• 23:00
  like you've just moved forward 20 years, right?
• 23:03
  Yeah, but if. Claude does argue, argue with me
• 23:06
  quite a lot, whereas ChatGPT used to wish me a very good
• 23:08
  morning. Claude's is straight to the
• 23:10
  point. It was a little bit more like my
• 23:12
  wife kind of set up. We're recording, but it just
• 23:14
  tells me what I need to do, right?
• 23:16
  And it doesn't really care how I do it.
• 23:17
  So I'm telling you to do this. This is the right answer.
• 23:21
  So yeah, I'm I'm a convert. Me too.
• 23:23
  And you can see when you use Claude how the agentic AI would
• 23:25
  work really, really well. But as I say, I think at the
• 23:29
  moment, for every one person that's using it for good means,
• 23:33
  I think there's going to be somebody there trying to trying
• 23:35
  to hack into all Claude. Yeah, I think.
• 23:38
  There's a lot of vulnerable businesses right now, which is
• 23:40
  probably why they don't trust everything else that's going on
• 23:42
  with the web. And it may be stable coin
• 23:44
  because they're seeing the impacts of what AI could have
• 23:46
  every single day when they go on social media.
• 23:48
  Yeah, try. And I mean, going off topic now,
• 23:50
  but I can scroll on social media and see videos that are being
• 23:53
  credited by AI and sometimes that puts me off AI more than it
• 23:57
  makes me want to use it because it is doing more negative than
• 24:00
  good in some ways. Yeah, there's this whole
• 24:01
  movement away from it, right, where people are trying to
• 24:04
  humanize the whole thing. But I do believe that, you know,
• 24:06
  the output you can get from AI is so great, the world will
• 24:10
  become a better place eventually because of it all.
• 24:13
  But on the payment side, it's very scary.
• 24:15
  Just about review the work it puts out.
• 24:17
  If you're me lazy about it and take the first thing it gives
• 24:20
  you, you can get it to go back and create this thing you were
• 24:23
  looking for it to do and still say 4 hours, right?
• 24:25
  Yeah. It's the laziness of humans
• 24:28
  sometimes where we're like, I just want it to be a 2 minute
• 24:30
  thing. Yeah, even though you've taken a
• 24:31
  six hour thing to a 10 minute thing, right.
• 24:33
  Go review, tweak, revise. Like use the tool properly.
• 24:37
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 24:38
  But bring that into the the the marketing world is more and more
• 24:41
  people are using AI because they're hearing about it more.
• 24:45
  If we think about stablecoin where that works, more people
• 24:47
  are talking about it. There's more user cases, People
• 24:50
  are going to start trusting it a little bit more.
• 24:53
  I think you're right. But to your point there, Grant,
• 24:55
  like you're going to start making payments and you're going
• 24:58
  to take the easy route and think, Oh, my agent won't pay
• 24:59
  for it and because it's fast, I'm not trying to get a.
• 25:04
  Refund well, I was going to ask you that was another question
• 25:06
  because you talked about the attack defence like you know
• 25:08
  fraud side of things, but just two payment systems both running
• 25:13
  on AI not from a fraudulent or attack defence point of view
• 25:16
  just working together. The big thing for me around this
• 25:20
  was payments companies that are not getting ahead of preparing
• 25:24
  for the inbound AI influx. So that AI will then learn and
• 25:28
  we've talked about a couple of times in the past, but that AI
• 25:30
  will start to go, oh, that payment system didn't like me
• 25:33
  last time. I'm not going to go to that
• 25:35
  website because I know that website uses that payment
• 25:37
  system, right? And this one accepted me and
• 25:39
  these 20 and they start building their own short lists of where
• 25:42
  good payments work for them as the AI tool.
• 25:44
  Like that's quite a scary notion, right?
• 25:46
  That you could be blacklisted by every.
• 25:49
  Sort of head of optimization that every.
• 25:51
  Payment company. A good shot for AI, but it's,
• 25:53
  you know, there's a valid risk there, I think.
• 25:55
  And then the EI gets together and starts negotiating prices,
• 25:58
  yeah. RFP received from AI It's.
• 26:01
  A really good point, but also within the open banking world is
• 26:03
  actually based on this specific consumer where they're based.
• 26:07
  We know that this issuer doesn't really like people with this IP
• 26:12
  and it does start to kind of have an an opinion on things
• 26:17
  that shouldn't have an opinion because it's an LLM.
• 26:19
  It just learns from every single thing it's told or it sees.
• 26:23
  But at what point is a discrimination?
• 26:25
  Yeah. It's a good question.
• 26:26
  That is a good question. Unconscious discrimination.
• 26:29
  But but, and it's already happening, right?
• 26:32
  And it's only going to be able to tell you what is being told
• 26:34
  and what it's taking and scraping.
• 26:37
  Let's look to the future. I feel like Demise are probably
• 26:41
  one of the only businesses that are in the future right now.
• 26:43
  You're actually doing what what businesses are having problems
• 26:46
  doing as opposed to jumping on on on a bandwagon.
• 26:50
  Will stable coins replace cost on the banking?
• 26:55
  Will stable coins replace cards on banking?
• 26:57
  Yes, I think for not every single use case.
• 27:03
  I think the cards are always going to be around, but look at
• 27:06
  cards attached to a stablecoin wallet for an off ramp, right?
• 27:09
  That's already there. You have companies like Calip,
• 27:11
  Calipay, great business. You have reap over over in Asia
• 27:16
  that actually connects cards to stablecoin wallets, right, for
• 27:18
  the off ramp. So you might just see a hybrid
• 27:22
  right where people are still going to use their cards
• 27:24
  connected to their traditional bank account.
• 27:25
  But then if they're in a situation where you know,
• 27:30
  they're travelling and they want to keep, I don't know, I'm just
• 27:33
  thinking loud here, but a budget for that travel, right, is that
• 27:36
  if they keep that money in a stablecoin wallet, that's what
• 27:39
  they'll be using for travel, generating yield every single
• 27:41
  day and use the card as the off ramp, great.
• 27:43
  If they want to use a traditional bank account with a
• 27:44
  card to pay for a holiday, it's going to come with all sorts of
• 27:47
  insurances and everything else, they can still want to use it.
• 27:49
  So I think the short answer is I think they're always going to be
• 27:52
  cards around whether that's connected to a stablecoin off
• 27:56
  ramp for the transaction or whether that's using traditional
• 28:00
  accounts. I think it's going to be a
• 28:01
  hybrid. You mentioned that insurance
• 28:03
  from a consumer perspective, where do you think insurance
• 28:06
  insurers sit in this world when it comes to stable coins?
• 28:10
  Is there many out there that are willing to take that risk and
• 28:13
  really trying to understand it from a from a business
• 28:15
  perspective when it comes to insurance and stable coins?
• 28:18
  Insuring the transaction. Correct I.
• 28:20
  Don't think you need to. OK, So the, the myth of the the
• 28:27
  stablecoin or crypto payment being faster than Fiat payment,
• 28:30
  I think is that you know, is not, is not right, right.
• 28:33
  But what is right is the the settlement finality, right?
• 28:37
  The stablecoin is settled in the wallet.
• 28:39
  It's unfungible. It's on the blockchain.
• 28:40
  It can't be, it can't be defrauded, right?
• 28:43
  So it's there, it's the off ramp piece, right?
• 28:45
  They're still going to go for the compliance checks, the FX,
• 28:47
  it can still get caught up with all that.
• 28:50
  So it can take longer to actually get to to your bank
• 28:54
  that a normal payment if it's caught up in compliance and all
• 28:56
  the rest of it. I think I've gone completely off
• 28:59
  tangent here. What was the I?
• 29:01
  I suppose it's we talk about maybe how businesses want to use
• 29:03
  stable coin, talk about stable coin providers, but from say a
• 29:07
  car perspective, there's charge about liability etcetera and
• 29:10
  there's people willing to willing to, to, to die on the
• 29:13
  hill for card holders. Are we seeing that same kind of
• 29:17
  trust and defence in the stable coin world?
• 29:22
  Not yet I think is the answer. So charge, but is, is there a
• 29:26
  chargeback mechanism? I think it's down to the, the
• 29:28
  provider of the payment, right? The, the, the payment service
• 29:31
  writer using stablecoins. So for example, This is why we
• 29:33
  have the escrow thing built in, right?
• 29:35
  So there is some kind of recourse for a consumer because
• 29:38
  they've ticked off the goods to say, I've got it.
• 29:41
  Then the money gets released. If they say it's not here, then
• 29:43
  they don't, you know, they, they, they don't, don't lose
• 29:46
  their money. So there is some sort of
• 29:48
  customer protection? What would have happened there
• 29:50
  when you go back to your 250K from the start of this
• 29:53
  conversation, right? You said I'd nearly written that
• 29:55
  off right? Is that because it's hit so many
• 29:57
  different banks, correspondent banks that you're like, no one
• 30:00
  can prove where it left the ecosystem like but you know, was
• 30:03
  there no insurance against that, that payment in essence, would
• 30:07
  it have had to come back or you go to the originator and go
• 30:10
  where the Hell's my money? Like what's going on?
• 30:11
  I? Mean this is a decade ago, of
• 30:12
  course I was phoning that South African bank every year, every
• 30:15
  week. Would there have been insurance
• 30:18
  on that? I don't think so.
• 30:19
  I don't think so. Lost to the Aoife.
• 30:22
  Can you imagine? Yeah, sorry, millions gone.
• 30:25
  I mean, it did look like that for quite some time.
• 30:27
  But they said don't worry, we'll find it.
• 30:29
  But yeah, but when they get all the the transaction codes and
• 30:32
  everything else through the banks and the banks and the
• 30:34
  banks, they find it. But.
• 30:35
  So what does the next decade of payments look like?
• 30:38
  We often say, what's the next one or two years?
• 30:40
  I'm going to go bigger and bolder with yourself.
• 30:43
  A decade? Where are we?
• 30:45
  I think this these, these, these stable coins are going to be
• 30:50
  extremely prevalent and probably underwrite, I would say most of
• 30:54
  the financial infrastructure of the world, certainly treasury,
• 30:58
  certainly cross-border payments and maybe even you know, local
• 31:03
  payments where there is no cash anymore.
• 31:05
  I mean, look at India, right, which did away with cash quite
• 31:07
  happily working on on digital infrastructure.
• 31:09
  Basically you I can see that happening with stable coins or
• 31:13
  some doesn't have to be stable coins could be a crypto that's
• 31:15
  making everybody money. I don't know, but certainly
• 31:17
  something on chain where people can make micro transactions to
• 31:21
  to each other in certain economies.
• 31:24
  It just makes perfect sense to me.
• 31:25
  It's 24/7 pay insurance payouts, you know the bank, there's no
• 31:29
  bank holidays, there's no, you know, time in between taken up
• 31:33
  with money going missing. So I think the entire world is
• 31:35
  just going to move to this payment.
• 31:36
  It's interesting. I mean I think I have cash once
• 31:39
  a month when I go to the barbers because they they don't, but
• 31:43
  they do like reluctantly do a bank transfer.
• 31:46
  I can't get involved in this conversation like going to the
• 31:47
  bar isn't using it. But like they that's the only
• 31:50
  time I have cash. So I feel like I've kind of
• 31:52
  removed cash from my life in the main.
• 31:53
  Anyway, the issue I have is getting rid of the physical card
• 31:57
  altogether. The reason being my phone is
• 31:58
  currently on the blinker, have to charge it three times a day
• 32:01
  if I don't have and I've only got like a little wallet like 2
• 32:04
  cards in it. But I think I do need that on me
• 32:06
  because if my phone dies I'm absolutely screwed.
• 32:07
  Like I haven't got any way to make payments.
• 32:09
  So I don't think I'm fully ready for the the physical.
• 32:13
  And we've had physical card on the shelf for shame before.
• 32:15
  But like we had down on promotion payments saying again,
• 32:18
  to your point, Asia lives in the the application like
• 32:21
  everything's on your, your mobile device, right?
• 32:24
  Like cash fit over there again, similar to India is in decline,
• 32:28
  right? So yeah, it's an interesting
• 32:30
  notion. I.
• 32:31
  Suppose it's not dictated, but it depends on on the government
• 32:34
  and what the central banks want to be able to do to help their
• 32:37
  customers, right? To really, really push that.
• 32:39
  And I imagine regulation and the central banks have a pretty big
• 32:43
  say in this evolution that's going on, right?
• 32:46
  Yeah, yeah. And of course they're everyone's
• 32:47
  trying to launch these CBD CS, right, The central bank digital
• 32:50
  currencies and it's 2 very different user bases, right?
• 32:53
  There's not people who want to use crypto, crypto and not
• 32:56
  necessarily stable coins are not the same user who wants to use
• 32:59
  the CBDC quite, quite, I think they're quite against it to be
• 33:02
  honest, right. Once your once your money is in
• 33:04
  the central bank. I'm sure it's been discussed
• 33:07
  many times, but things like speeding fines or random fines
• 33:10
  you don't really want to pay or want to dispute come straight
• 33:12
  out of your account because it's a CB DC-247365.
• 33:15
  That's scary. Very scary.
• 33:17
  And so that's why I think the user base will always be
• 33:19
  different. So I think there's always going
• 33:20
  to be room unless obviously regulation changes that or a
• 33:24
  kind of Circle or Tether style well used stablecoin.
• 33:29
  And then of course the CBDC's might replace those
• 33:31
  microtransactions for things like fines and things like.
• 33:33
  This, but This is why the schemes are acquiring as many
• 33:36
  businesses as they can at the minute, right?
• 33:38
  Because they only they're going to cannibalize drying volume.
• 33:40
  But it's best to do it now than than do it too late.
• 33:43
  I think so too. And then you see BB and K with
• 33:45
  MasterCard and again now 1.8 billion.
• 33:49
  Yeah, there's a lot of flirting goes on before these big deals
• 33:51
  at the moment, isn't there? Like this Will they, won't they
• 33:53
  sell? There's a, there's a lot of name
• 33:55
  brands, but there's a few of these conversations going on,
• 33:57
  some interests. Doing all right to to be able to
• 33:59
  say we're interested, but we've still got, we still want to give
• 34:01
  it another six months just in case, just in case something
• 34:04
  happens. And what's happened, even if we
• 34:06
  look at stable point in the last six months was probably bigger
• 34:08
  than what happened in the two years prior to that.
• 34:11
  I think what's going to happen in in stable point, whatever
• 34:13
  next six months will probably outshine what's happened over
• 34:15
  the last two years. And people are learning every
• 34:17
  single day. Save from that.
• 34:19
  It's it's. One of the schemes will never
• 34:20
  die because they innovate and they they buy an open banking
• 34:24
  platform, they buy a stable. I don't know.
• 34:26
  About innovate but buy definitely, yeah.
• 34:28
  Innovate for acquisition, right? I mean, they're, they're,
• 34:31
  they're staying on trend. So when the market does shift
• 34:34
  and if card does finally die, it won't matter because the schemes
• 34:37
  will be part of the wider ecosystem.
• 34:39
  Like it's a smart play. They've got the most data as
• 34:41
  well, right? Yeah, Yeah.
• 34:43
  You think of all the consumers and cards that they issue.
• 34:46
  If anyone's going to know about the consumers, it's certainly
• 34:48
  going to be the schemes. You see with open banking, like
• 34:50
  Visa bought Tink, right? I didn't really see Tinker and
• 34:53
  much after that, but I think they're still there somewhere.
• 34:55
  And the infrastructure really, I'm sure.
• 34:59
  And then I have a MasterCard, of course.
• 35:01
  Yeah, the Nordic payment gateway, yeah.
• 35:04
  Now obviously, if the BB and K thing goes through, great, yeah.
• 35:07
  If you were to build a payments company from scratch today, what
• 35:12
  would you avoid? Well, first, would you?
• 35:13
  Would you want? To.
• 35:14
  I don't think so. You've done a few, so you used
• 35:17
  to learn along the way. So for me, maybe it's going to
• 35:22
  sell terribly cliche, but it really is.
• 35:25
  I just came back from Poland with most of the team.
• 35:27
  It's about the people, right building.
• 35:29
  I think companies, you know, anybody can start like, hey,
• 35:31
  let's go and build a company, especially with AI now.
• 35:34
  But like, who do you want to sell to?
• 35:35
  Who do you want to work with? Because at the end of the day,
• 35:37
  you're at the grindstone, you know, 16 hours a day for a
• 35:41
  couple of years in the beginning at least, you know, sacrificing
• 35:45
  a lot. And if you're going to do that,
• 35:46
  So what to avoid? I think avoid people that don't
• 35:50
  A, want to work, I guess, but B, fit into your, your culture of
• 35:53
  just like, let's work with people we want to work with.
• 35:56
  Let's be honest, You know, how many people in the payment world
• 35:58
  do you see that? You know, the whole fake it till
• 36:01
  you make it thing has been very prevalent in this industry.
• 36:04
  And I'm from the recruitment background, right?
• 36:06
  So yeah, things are things. You know, honestly, I think it
• 36:09
  goes a very long way. You see, we come up with in RFPs
• 36:12
  with loads of different businesses and you know, they
• 36:14
  promise they have all sorts of things and when it comes to it,
• 36:17
  they don't. We have it at Vault, you're
• 36:18
  choosing a partner to plug into. They say they have everything,
• 36:22
  all the bells and whistles. You go to plug it in which you
• 36:24
  want to plug in as your business is going to rely on that
• 36:27
  partnership and it doesn't have 50% of what this, you know,
• 36:31
  things like this I think are really to be avoided and it's so
• 36:35
  easily avoided now. So yeah, if that answers the
• 36:37
  question. I think buys expectations have
• 36:39
  grown quite a lot, right? So you can punch above your own
• 36:42
  weight to a certain level. But actually, I think the way
• 36:44
  that people expect products to work now is probably a little
• 36:46
  bit better than what it has been in the past.
• 36:48
  And people now just building products on lovable, right And
• 36:51
  they're ready to go and a million IR in a couple of days.
• 36:53
  You hear the good stories, but I mean there's a million bad
• 36:56
  stories every single day that that come about that as well.
• 36:58
  I mean. They are.
• 37:00
  They've gone like massive growth as well, haven't they?
• 37:02
  Loveable. Yeah, strikes me as a bubble.
• 37:04
  Strikes me as a huge bubble. I mean, it's a wonderful growth
• 37:07
  story, of course. But again, you see now, like if
• 37:10
  you've built an app on Loveable or base 44, I think it's called,
• 37:15
  I keep confusing it with base 24 from AC Avid.
• 37:17
  It's base 44. Yeah.
• 37:21
  The app stores are banning these apps, right.
• 37:24
  So you know, what does that say? It says like, you know, people
• 37:27
  have probably flooding the app stores all these lovable style
• 37:29
  vibe coded apps, but are they working or are they just
• 37:32
  causing? Congestion definitely exists as
• 37:34
  well. You do see it.
• 37:35
  It's like one of the the leading marketing lures in that space.
• 37:39
  It's all wrong, right? Because you've you see these
• 37:41
  people. Oh, yeah, come on, let's test
• 37:42
  out a payment. It's going to be really fast.
• 37:44
  Then the compliance gets held up because, you know, and they're
• 37:46
  like, where's my, where's my money?
• 37:47
  And you're like, yeah, it's, it's in your stable kind of
• 37:49
  account. You just can't get that to me.
• 37:51
  You can't have it. And the second one is, you know,
• 37:54
  we're doing a lot of work in Africa and there's still loads
• 37:58
  of people talking about how crypto is going to bank the
• 38:01
  unbanked, you know, and people are saying, OK, we're going to
• 38:05
  issue a card on these, on these crypto wallets.
• 38:09
  If you, if you haven't got a bank account, you probably can't
• 38:11
  get a crypto wallet. And if you've got a crypto
• 38:13
  wallet, you still need to get the money into your bank
• 38:15
  account, which you can't have. So it's just going to be stuck
• 38:17
  in a crypto wallet and that's is equivalent to a bank in the sky,
• 38:21
  Is it? It's.
• 38:21
  Exactly. So you can't get the money in
• 38:23
  cash anyway. And so maybe you can.
• 38:24
  And there's probably someone on the street corner in Zanzibar
• 38:27
  trying to, you know, take your crypto and give you cash, but
• 38:29
  they're going to charge you 15% or 20%.
• 38:31
  So you're stuck in the FX loop. And then imagine if you're a
• 38:34
  commodity trader and you're trying to get physical coffee
• 38:38
  out of Ghana. The person doesn't want a stable
• 38:41
  coin who's selling the coffee, They want the cash.
• 38:43
  Yeah. And so you're still in the
• 38:44
  unbanked loop, right? So crypto is not going to save
• 38:47
  the unbanked unfortunately. So it's ugly.
• 38:49
  Rumour that crypto is going to serve the unbanked needs to be
• 38:52
  demiffed. I think so, Those are the 2 main
• 38:54
  ones. I've seen those.
• 38:55
  Good ones. I'm happy to shelve them both,
• 38:57
  thank you. Hello too, Jordan, thanks so
• 38:59
  much for coming on the show. Where can people find out a
• 39:01
  little bit more about yourself and Demisa?
• 39:03
  So LinkedIn, follow me LinkedIn and then you can send me an
• 39:07
  e-mail Jordan at demisa dot XYZ. You know, XYZ is also everyone's
• 39:11
  got it and we. We did start with it.
• 39:12
  I wouldn't do it. I'll tell you because the
• 39:15
  trouble is, the XYZURL will make sure probably 60% of your emails
• 39:20
  end up in spam. Oh nice from oh, good morning
• 39:22
  there. To go.
• 39:24
  That's free. You could have charged us for
• 39:26
  that. We're going to change.
• 39:27
  Probably, yeah, But yeah. Do you want me an e-mail?
• 39:29
  It probably will go to spam, but I'll fish it out.
• 39:32
  And probably LinkedIn is the best one.
• 39:34
  Awesome, Jordan, thank you so much for coming on the show.
• 39:36
  Thank you. Thanks guys.
• 39:37
  I've been great.