Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / Evangelists Or Public Advocates For Christianity? || The Social Network || SLP394

Transcript

Evangelists Or Public Advocates For Christianity? || The Social Network || SLP394 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and thank you for downloading episode 394 of the Speak Life Podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: My name's Thomas Thorogood and I work at Speak Life and we'll get straight in with the episode.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'll catch you at the end for some more content with Paul Feasy.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Enjoy.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, hello and welcome to the Speakeasy.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Paul Feasy, and as always, I'm joined by Mr.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Nate Morganlock.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I jumped in.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: You felt you wanted to say it.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say my name, but um I don't need to now because you've said it.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: I jumped in there taking it away.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_08: I'm sorry, sorry.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_08: We're not joined though by the Reverend Glenn Scrivener.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: I thought you weren't gonna say it then.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: You were just gonna wait by we're not joined by Glenn, no.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: He has unfortunately fallen foul of COVID.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: He tested positive this morning, was it?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_08: That darn coronavirus.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_08: Yes, just this morning.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: So he won't be joining us, unfortunately, but he has sent us a little bit of an update about the week because you might remember he wasn't here last week um because he was in Belfast and uh he was at a mission week for the university there, or a number of universities, I think.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or one university in four churches, I can't remember which way around it was.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um so he sent us an update on that, and you will watch that later, and he'll say a bit about what's going on in this week ahead as well, although things have slightly changed for him.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um so today we are chatting about a clip that got shared on Twitter this week.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and in it, uh Stephen Colbert, host of The Late Show, um, is asked by his guest, do a Leepa.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Am I saying that right?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: I do a Leeper I don't really know.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_08: I couldn't have picked her out of a crowd if you'd asked me to.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_08: But yeah, she asks him, she's being interviewed by him on his show, and then because she's got a podcast coming out, he then says, Well, hold on, would you like to practice your interviewing technique?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_08: And then she just asks him this absolute banging question, which sort of has taken the internet by storm.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_08: Certainly, his response has uh been shared.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or should we have a look at what was said?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Here we go.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think something that your uh viewers really connect with in your comedy and your hosting skills, especially in the like past few years, is how open and honest and authentic you are about the role your faith plays in your life.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering is there any, you know, does your faith in your comedy ever overlap?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And does women ever win a I think ultimately all being modeled with a faithful win?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um this faith because my faith is involved with Christian and I can't think that I'm always connected to the idea of um love and sacrifice, being somehow related and giving yourself to other people.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then death is not defeat, if you if you can see what I'm getting at there.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Someone's asking earlier, what movie did I really enjoy this year?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, I really like Belfast, which is kind of a prominent story of his childhood.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the reasons I love it is that I'm Irish and um I'm Irish American, and it's such an Irish movie.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think this is almost a mechanical thing because it's it's funny and it's sad, and it's funny about being sad.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: In the same way, that sadness is like a little bit of an emotional death, but not a defeat if you can find a way to laugh about it.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because that laughter keeps you from having fear of it, and fear is the thing that keeps you from turning to evil devices to save you from the sadness.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: As Robert Hayden said, we must not be frightened or controlled into accepting evil as our deliverance from evil.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: We need to keep struggling to maintain our humanity, the monsters of abstraction threaten and police us.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's some relationship between my faith and my comedy, it's that no matter what happens, you are never defeated.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: You must understand and see this in the light of eternity and find some way to love and laugh with each other.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: So there we go.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: That was the clip.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: That is the clip.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I saw it a couple of days ago, someone tweeted it out, so I picked up on it.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um and there's a lot of interesting stuff in there which we will dive into more.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, first the first thing though that interest I I just I was quite surprised at the question in the first place.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, just a great question.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I hadn't really got the context of why that she, you know, Duo Lipa had a podcast coming out anyway.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I would I thought, oh, that's just a really odd question for her to come out with about his faith and comedy.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, but she obviously um you know had a really good, thoughtful question there, and he he gives a very kind of thoughtful answer, and we will think a bit more about it.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: But it kind of kicked off because um uh I I don't know, was it Tim Keller initially who posted around about it and then people picked up on it?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure, but Tim Keller.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_08: I didn't initially, presumably the late show put it out.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_08: Well, probably they put it out.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: We'll assume, yeah.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_08: And then they said ask Keller.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: In the Christian world, the Christian sphere of Twitter, perhaps Keller was the first to pick up on it.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, so he said, uh, if I can get this to come up on the screen, he said, This is a brilliant example of how to be a Christian in the public square.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Notice the witness, but in a form the culture can handle.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: We should desire to have more Christians in these spaces and give them grace as they operate.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And uh there were lots of responses to that.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: There always are, aren't they?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_08: Well on that social media, people responding.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of people had opinions, and um well Keller seems to get the brunt of it quite a lot at the moment, anyway.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there was a little bit of that, but there were people with kind of who were saying, Yes, you know what, this is really good, and some people were saying no, this is awful, really.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's not at all anything positive for us to hold up in any light.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um so um there were and this this question I suppose was getting asked really, or the the big issue around it was well, is this really doing any form of evangelism?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, what kind of a witness he says it's a great witness.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_08: Um what is good about the witness, and I think some of the issue that people had I I think is around Keller's phrase in a form the culture can handle.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_08: Which I mean he's he's been round the Twitter's block a few times now, he should I think the concern of a lot of people is well, if it's the gospel, why would we expect the culture to handle it?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_08: We might want the culture to understand it, but to handle it sort of sounds like they would, you know, not have any issues with it, and surely there is an offence to the gospel, and um we'll get into that a little bit more later on.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_08: But I suppose from that side of things, you know, I wasn't overly wowed by what um uh Stephen Colbert said.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_08: I don't think he he said anything wrong, I think there's a lot to commend him for.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_08: But if you'd asked me what do you expect Stephen Colbert will say if he was asked a question like this, whilst I wouldn't have been able to pick out the specifics, I think the general thrust and direction of what he said, the tone of what he said, and the way in which what he said would have been received by his audience and by Dua Lipa herself would would not have set the cat among the pigeons.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_08: Um so from that point of view, I was slightly sort of surprised that this was getting the attention that it got.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_08: Um and maybe I'm naive to think that m most Christian Catholics or Christians or Catholics on uh mainstream news media when asked a question like that would be able to respond in in that sort of way.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_08: Does that make sense?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I was more surprised by it.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think there were a few things he said, and we will dive more into what he said in a moment, but though I thought here personally.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I mean looking at the thing on Twitter, the big the big division between people on Twitter seemed to be like is this any form of witness?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is this really kind of any can we call this evangelism in any way?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um or the other side was people kind of saying like, well, he didn't mention this, this, this, this, this.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and therefore it's not really anything to w worth looking at or holding up.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: So um I think that's kind of where some of the main well, that's where the big division on Twitter was, at least.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Whether that's the overall thing, I don't know.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: But it kind of played into uh a discussion that Glenn had with John Dixon, yes, um, which is an interview which I think is already out.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's already out on our YouTube channel.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um and maybe one of the guys over there could actually put the link down in the chat, that'd be great for it.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um but we've got a little clip here um from I think it's actually the first question that Glenn asked John, um, which kind of ties in with this, so we'll have a look at what we said.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_05: I am with Australian ordained Anglican podcaster, rock and roller, author, and public advocate for Christianity.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_05: Who else could it be but John Dixon?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_05: Hello.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_06: Hey man, great to talk with you.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you too.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_05: Now, public advocate for Christianity.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_05: This is sort of the moniker that you like to wear.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_05: Why not evangelists, why not apologists?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_06: Um, apologists tend to be thought of as using any argument, even bad ones, um to promote the Christian faith.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_06: And so you often hear people say, oh, that's just apologetics.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm thinking of my critical sort of audience, you know, the audience.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_06: Um, I mean, even someone like Richard Dawkins sort of speaks of something being just apologetics.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_06: So I my perception is the the um connotation of apologetics is of not really doing anything academic.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_06: It's just using any argument that you can find your hands, you know, get on your hands.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_06: But I want to do good history.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_06: Um and so apologetics just doesn't seem right, even though I understand, especially when I travel in America, everyone introduces me as an apologist.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_06: And I, you know, I die inside.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_06: Why not evangelist?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_06: Well, look, if I'm honest with you, um I really do see myself simply as an evangelist.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_06: You know, if you just drive everything back, that's all I've wanted to do, make Christ more public.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_06: Um but I I do think evangelist is a damaged word in our in the general public.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_06: And so there seems to me no point um in trading on that as a descriptor.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_06: Because the very people I want to connect with see evangelists as someone, you know, a quick batten down the hatch as the evangelist is coming to browbeat me and so on.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_06: Now that's an incorrect view of what that word means, of course.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_06: But so what do I do?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_06: I I I advocate for the Christian faith in public.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_06: I mean that's what an evangelist does.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm happy to just think of it in those terms.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_06: I'm a public advocate for Christianity.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: There we go.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: So he sees himself so there was the idea there of being either an apologist, which John often gets introduced as, much to his dismay, an evangelist, which he says he still views himself as, but it seems to have is a word that's been slightly damaged by various parties, or uh a public advocate for Christianity, which he says is kind of what he's doing.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I mean I I I mean I I I think the Colbert thing, I'm much more positive about it perhaps than you.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_08: Um I'm not I'm positive about it.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_08: I just don't understand why this would kick off such a this was the greatest thing ever, and then other people are like, This is the worst thing ever.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_08: Sure.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I know I'm certainly not in a kind of it's the greatest thing ever.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well it's Twitter, isn't it?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's only the best thing or the worst thing.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: You're either the you're either Jesus or Hitler, you know, in people's eyes.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how it goes on Twitter, doesn't it?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean it's worth thinking a little bit about what Colbert actually said.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: So uh because he said it quite quickly and there's easy to kind of look around.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had to sit there and think a little bit about it.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: So he said, sadness is like a little bit of an emotional death, but not a defeat if you can find a way to laugh about it, because that laughter keeps you from having fear of it, and fear is the thing that keeps you from turning to evil devices to save you from the sadness.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then he said, So if there's some relationship to my faith and my comedy, it's that no matter what happens, you're never defeated.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: You must understand and see this in the light of eternity and find a way to love and laugh with each other.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so I don't know all of his story, but I I've picked up from a few people that he himself has gone through some suffering, so at least I at least I've read that he's experienced depression and things like that.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if there's a deeper story there as well.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: But there seems to be a sense which he's saying, look, you when you can see things in the light of eternity, that allows you to laugh even in the face of dreadful suffering and sadness.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: And laughter is something which drives out fear when fear can lead to evil things.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: We're all going there.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I I I felt that what he was saying is that his faith allows him to take that sadness and the darkness, and rather than kind of that be something that consumes him or he would despair at, because he can see something, he can look at it from a different perspective, yeah, and therefore he can find a way to laugh at it, he can find some positive in it.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: So in some sense, that's he uses it as a way to redeem and transform darkness and suffering into something that's used for light or good.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I don't think and he probably wouldn't say this, and obviously it's only a short answer, but I don't think that that light, that good that's coming out of it, isn't necessarily an explicit display of like a gospel presentation, which I think is probably which is what people had a problem with.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: They're going, This isn't an explicit display of the gospel.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_08: Um I don't think and I don't think it needed to be, and I think it would have been it would have been very odd and quite very surprising if if Stephen Colbert had like been, you know, taken her through the four planks of the gospel or some kind of basic you know, bridge to life, or something like that.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_08: Would have been very strange.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_08: I think and we'll get into this, I think what he's what he was doing is that he's answering a question about the relationship between comedy and faith, and faith where he seemed to automatically assume that was to do with death, right?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_08: He sort of jokes, you know, which he says which one wins out, and then he says, Well, we're all mortal, and so the faith wins out in the end.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_08: And you know, I've got to hope that Jesus has got a sense of humour.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_08: So he he's it's not just like a complete, you know, explain to me what you believe.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_08: Sure.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_08: It's how does your personal faith relate to your career as a comedian?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_08: And I think from that regard, uh it would be odd if he'd gone into chapter and verse and uh sort of now repent and leave the gospel duly but um but uh for what he did say it felt as though it sailed it sailed as close as it needed to from his point of view to kind of mean that he'd sort of discharged his duty as saying I'm a Christian.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_08: I've sort of said the Christian things, but it it was he knew where the line of of attention was going to be and he chose not to cross that line.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_08: And I think all of us who are Christians, when we're asked by non-Christians about our faith, whatever the context, we know that we know there's a line somewhere that is going to be awkward for us to have to cross.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_08: There are gonna be things that we're going to believe that the person we're speaking to doesn't believe.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_08: And the phrase that we've been thinking over this afternoon, as we've sort of talked about this, is this question of or the or the phrase one man's wisdom is another man's cowardice.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_08: And I think that's the challenge for someone like Colbert, who is a Christian in the way that he is a very public figure and but happy to sort of identify himself as a Christian, is you're always gonna have the question of when are you prepared to say something that is going to provoke more of a reaction.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: But would you not say, in the context of what he was asked about comedy, you know, there at that point in that discussion, there's probably isn't a point, yeah, or an obvious point where you go, you're probably gonna say something that's gonna cross a line here about comedy and faith.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_08: But even that, but even not not landing it on a not grounding it.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_08: So there's a lot of abstract nouns.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_08: Once you ground those abstract nouns in the person of Jesus Christ and the scandal of his death and resurrection and ascension, bodily ascension, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_08: That's when it's like, oh, he slightly lost me there.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_08: And so there's a there's a sense in which his his uh defense of the faith, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_08: What he's doing, it we can show this now, 1 Peter 3.15, right?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, he's doing the work of an apologist because he's giving a reason to Jualipa who is asking him for the hope that he has within him.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_08: So from that point of view, actually it's a response to her question, and her question is a remarkable thing in this whole situation, that she is sort of thinking at that sort of level and is sort of observant enough and curious enough to want to put you know Stephen Colbert in that position.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_08: He is giving a reason, and it's a personal testimony.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_08: When you say death is not defeat, he's not just saying that just because he likes the abstract nouns, he's saying I I know this really from my own experience.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_08: The challenge is that even within that, you have an opportunity to land this plane at the airport Jesus Christ.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_08: This is such a terrible extension of the metaphor, right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_08: But you're still circling, you're still circling because you're still into you know, there's there's hope and there's darkness and there's evil and there's light and there's humanity.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_08: And it's like at some point, those things need to join us here on earth, and they have.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_08: You can tell us when that happened.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_08: Did he need to say that?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_08: I don't think he did, but but there's a point at which it uh if you never say that in your public utterances it's very difficult to see how you are sort of genuinely.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I think you know I I would say like could he have been more explicit?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: The answer is clearly yes.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, even if it was he could have said something at the end, you know, about like a math, you know, this.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And this can only be because of because I've trusted in the you know Jesus, death and resurrection of Jesus, or you know, whatever's not quite as I don't know, I was gonna say cliched of just throwing out a line like that.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, feels as formulaic in the same way.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um so absolutely, I think that's the case.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think what's disheartening for me is to see people go, oh, that is not basically.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what it felt like on Twitter was he didn't mention penal substitutionary atonement and sin and use the word repent, therefore this is not evangelism.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, actually, I think what we saw was someone who showed how his faith actually affected his what he did in his day-to-day life with his comedy, which is showing how the gospel has changed his thing.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now, yes, could you be more explicit, of course.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um I felt I felt that the witness comes from the his story as a man who suffered from depression oh and maybe more and he's saying I can do comedy, yeah, I can laugh and do comedy and make other people laugh because of my faith.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so it to some extent, the fact he has this, he's he's doing this is part of his witness.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Now, is that all evangelism is?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, no, absolutely not, but I don't think what he's doing is necessarily less than evangelism either.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: We shouldn't say, Oh, that's not it at all, because it's a w it's it's it's showing, like you say, this is the hope in him.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, allows him how what allows him to get up every day and do what he does, well, it's his faith.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, it could have been more clear.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_08: And there'll be there'll be lots of people who you know know that the word witness, you know, is it's the word martyr, where it comes from that.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_08: And there is that sense of you're you're showing the scars of your life and pointing to the the fact that you've found healing in Christ.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_08: You've you've you've suffered, and that's the context of the the whole of of one Peter is that you've got a suffering church, and they are able to point to the hope that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_08: They have which keeps them going in the face of you know adversity and they can point to Jesus Christ in that.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_08: So they can they can testify to Jesus Christ within that situation.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_08: So I think I think absolutely there is a sense in which 1 Peter 3:15 always be prepared to give an answer for the when someone asks you for the hope there is within you, right?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_08: And do so with gentleness and respect, right?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_08: And there is a sense in which what Keller is commending in Colbert is uh the uh the honesty, the integrity, the gentleness, and the respect with which he spoke uh to he answered the question.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_08: Now the the challenge is I think a lot of other people who are responding to that saying, no way, this wasn't a proper witness because you didn't do this, that, and the other.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_08: This you don't give the culture something it can handle is they're thinking about Paul writing in First Corinthians chapter one.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_08: Um I think we can pull it up, is it 22 to 24?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_08: Yep.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_08: And the offense of the cross, which you know, the the Greeks look for wisdom and the Jews ask for a sign, but we preach Christ crucified, yeah.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_08: You know, who's a stumbling block, right, in foolishness.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_08: And I think one of the things that that lots of people might find frustrating with you know Keller, who's I don't know, thousands of degrees and so so good at speaking and smart and sophisticated and spends all of his time in this situation.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_08: He would be great for him to, you know, to speak to Stephen Colbert's audience, right?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_08: But uh the the question a lot of people will have is when do these people look like they're preaching foolishness?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_08: They always look like they're being very comfortable and and everything's all sort of fine and dandy.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: But would the flip side be when we're saying so so I wonder when people say, Oh, we preach, you know, it's all about preaching Christ crucified in that.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: But what sometimes people mean by preaching Christ crucified is simply um and the foolishness is um we preach the mechanism of the cross.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: So so what people say when when the people's complaints against Colbert is he didn't explain how Jesus came and takes our sin on himself and this kind of thing there.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_08: Um I think that mechanistic thing, the the penal substitutionary atonement thing, which can can just be considered as that is the gospel, unless you get those that kind of mechanic in place, you've not done your job, right?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_08: There is the sense in which the cross, and when Paul's speaking to the church in Corinth, the cross, because it's about wisdom being shown in the foolishness of the cross, because it's about strength being shown in weakness, it completely baffles the people who are being spoken to because it destroys the paradigm they're working in.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_08: And the challenge when you're being a witness in the public square is in order to be invited back and in order to be able to say things which people are going to, as as happened then, feel comfortable to applaud and to nod along with, you rarely say something that blows their minds and says actually no, the the most powerful moment in all of human history is the point at which God is crucified on the cross.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think probably I mean, obviously people applauded it there.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think people applaud regardless on those TV shows.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: I just wonder whether you know the the foolishness of Christ crucified is not is not simply well, i is there a way, is there a possibility we can say that the very fact that Colbert can stand there and say death is not defeat.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah now he says that because of Christ crucified.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and so there were many people who would say he's living in La La Land.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's foolishness.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: That is that is nonsense.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's and and the the situation made me think about like when Libby was in hospital, yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so people would kind of say, like, well, how do you keep going?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Or people, you know, yeah, people would say, Well, how how can you even be even function as like a normal hum vaguely normal human being in the face of what's going on?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Now, there were opportunities on you know when we were sharing stuff on Facebook to say you know about our faith.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: But that's not always explicit.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Some of it is just look people looking and going, How on earth are they still going?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that that in self is there there was an evangelism in the fact we were still going.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Even if we didn't at every corner go, Jesus died on the cross.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like and I know that's not what you're saying, yeah, but I think for some people that is what they think, that is all witness is going, Jesus died on the cross.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Repent now.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_08: Like and and and the f and an extent to an extent in the context you were in in the hospital with with the family was one in which obviously people were looking for the at the hope that you had and the and trying to sort of fathom how they would cope with the same level of of crisis and anxiety and concern, and you're able to say exactly as as you say, we're able to to point to the God who says death is not defeat and the God who uh who reigns over all things and who tenderly cares for his creation and his church.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_08: And so I think from that point of view, clearly, um there is a witness that you provide as people look at what you've got and say, how how do you how do you get this, or what is this thing that you have?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_08: Um we we should go back to um the clip that we showed from the John Dixon interview.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_08: Right, yes.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_08: Because we sort of talked a bit about the apologist thing and from 1 Peter 3, and we've talked a bit about the sort of more typical evangelist sounding thing in in 1 Corinthians.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_08: Um he seems to reject both those labels, and might I say, as a reformed mythologist, I think there's a lot to be said for just making up your own titles and claiming them.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_08: But but advocate public advocate for Christianity.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_08: We heard him talk about that a little bit there, but you got any reflections on what you think he's is the benefit of taking those terms and owning them rather than evangelist apologist, more typical terms.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean what he said about the apologists I thought was interesting because he said people see it as not academic, it's just I win for the sake of winning the argument, you know, I make any argument.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: I just I thought that was interesting because I think my head, I view the apologists as the ones who are just doing very academic stuff, which can be very devoid of any uh it's very intellectual without a lot of Bible often, without a lot of Jesus, it's just argument winning.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but in an intellectual sense, I think he rejects that.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I mean I think evangelist maybe it is a damaged term, but a bit like evangelical is a damaged term.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_08: And that's and that's one of the other things that Keller's been very interesting on trying to help people think through the term evangelical because of course it's not just a term used within the church, it's used within the mainstream media, it's used as a kind of catch-all for a voting block for whatever it might be.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_08: Um and so those two terms, in a way, they both almost need to be well redeemed, really.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_08: They they need to have their value sort of added back into them.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_08: Um the Greek word evangelion, which means good news, and good news could have been anything in the ancient world, it could have meant the end of the war and the victory has been you know won, and the word evangelist is already out there in the public sphere.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_08: And you know, if you're wanting to try to engage with people is it okay to call yourself a reform of sorry, a public advocate for Christianity?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, we I think we just I think maybe yeah, I mean, in a sense, I don't care what he calls himself, you know.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_08: You don't care?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't mind, I should say I don't mind what he calls himself.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I think the the important thing at the end of the day is uh what whatever way people are speaking, whether it's some of those, you know, those the University Mission Week apologist, or whether it's the person who calls himself an evangelist, or whether it's John Dixon saying I'm a public advocate for Christianity, what matters is Jesus being held up to people and that will look different to different people in different settings.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: So if you uh you know, if you're the the person in the University Mission Week, it's gonna look very different in a lunch bar than it is to Sarah with her five children in the mother and toddler group or the school gate or Bob in the office having a conversation about with a work collie.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_08: With a work collie.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: With someone like that, yes.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: And there will be times when people s sometimes you one person will be right to cross the line, yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: And other times people will be wise, you know, wiser and innocent as doves.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: There are times to speak and to hold back, to be very explicit, to be more implicit.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think I think maybe the mistake with the tet the Keller tweet is to assume that oh, he's this is he's he's given a blanket thing, yeah, you know.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um but of course that's how Twitter works, you know, it's either one or the other.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_08: So well, if only we could find out who started this whole social media thing.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_08: Pin him down.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we'll um I was gonna say let us know what people think in the comments.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm we can see what people think in the comments.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's a lot of comments.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: There are a few comments.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: A few.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: But we'll come back to those uh in a moment.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh do keep them coming in.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: This conversation went out live on our YouTube channel.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: You can watch it and all of our other conversations at youtube.com forward slash speaklifemedia.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: We're on the other social media platforms, just search for Speak Life UK.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: That will keep you posted.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: And why not join us when we next go live?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: You can also email comments and questions to info at speaklife.org.uk.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Speak Life is supported internally by the generosity of people like you, especially through your press.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: If you'd like to contribute financially, regular orn-off donations are much appreciated, and you can do that at speaklife.org.uk forward slash give.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a regular giver, you can request access to our Discord server where you can join us for more conversation and exclusive behind the scenes content.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get back to the podcast.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so um Glenn, as we said, is not here.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but he has sent us a video, which I'm just trying to find, scrambling around.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: So Glenn's not here, he's been away in Belfast this week, but as we said, he tested positive COVID.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: But he has sent us a video to tell us what was going on in the previous week, give us an update and get us thinking about how we can be praying for uh Belfast and for him in his sickness.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, I got back from Belfast where last week I was uh helping out uh a whole bunch of different Christian unions, uh four different universities, I think, from Belfast.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um Christian unions were uniting together to reach um reach the city.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, we had uh a lot of uh great uh evenings.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_04: It was called Human, and I spoke about uh human value, human hypocrisy, human freedom, human suffering, and uh we had some great QA and uh filmed some videos and did some podcasts, and I think we um in the evenings uh we reached out to over 2,000 people, and um, yeah, much gospel seed was sown.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um a lot of people um thrilled to I think be coming home to Jesus.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_04: I never know.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_04: I never know.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um all we do is sow the seed and uh God gives the gives the growth.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_04: But there were certainly people who were loving the good news of Jesus and uh and wanting him for themselves.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_04: So that was brilliant.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_04: And then I've uh come home for the weekend and uh just this morning was gonna head off to Dublin to do uh their mission week.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_04: Trinity College Dublin's CU uh is putting on a week of mission events.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um two of our interns have gone.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_04: I've stayed because I've got the dreaded second red line.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_04: So um finally, finally, I have COVID.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um so yeah, please do pray for Trinity College Dublin's CU as they reach out.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um they've got evening meetings uh Monday night, Tuesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night, which uh I was meant to be speaking at.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe I'll zoom in, maybe they'll get a live speaker, but we don't know.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_04: But I I just pray that the week would be even more fruitful um without me.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_04: Uh God, I'm sure God would love to do that.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um and uh yeah, I'm doing okay.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_04: I've uh slept a lot of today and feeling um feeling okay, feeling very, very fluy and dizzy this morning.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um but we will see.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_04: It's day one.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_04: So um thanks very much and uh God bless.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: So um encouraging to hear what Glenn has been up to in Belfast.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Do keep praying for them and do pray for Dublin in this week ahead because I I I don't know if anything's been resolved since then about whether Glenn is going to be speaking via Zoom or whether they've had to get someone else in.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um although we have sent off two of our interns.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_08: We have we have sent two uh two interns who were gonna be going with Glenn, they're now going sort of without Glenn.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_08: Um, and there's a U2 song about that.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_08: And so they've gone over to Dublin, and I mean, who knows?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_08: All heaven could break loose, right?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_08: In responding and reacting to the fact that you know Glenn Scrivener is not able to be there.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_08: I wonder what will happen, right?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_08: The Spirit of God will still be working, we're still gonna be praying for it.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_08: Um, we are yeah, we're really hopeful.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_08: And Glenn sounded great on that video, I think, but I think he's I think he was doing a great job.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_08: It sounds like he's been he's actually pushing on the street.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_08: He's pushing in a bit rough today.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: So Oh, he said they had a live here you go, he said they had a live speaker tonight.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see what happens the other evening.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: So there we go.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Glenn is watching in.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Glenn.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Glenn.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, one of the things we've been doing over the past few weeks is our little film section, and we've been having to connect the films one to the next.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um and last week we had a discussion about the game, uh, the 1997 Michael Douglas film.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_08: Um and we got a few complaints though, or we'd had a few I didn't know that they were complaints, they were observations, and they raised questions about the types of films that we had landed on, and the suggestion that we might like to pick some some girls' films.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_08: And they were legally blonde and dirty dancing on the two that were offered.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_08: And then who was it last week who just absolutely nailed it?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we said that we need to because we've got to link them together, you've got to find a way to get from the game to the root.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: So Craig Morris, pretty much as soon as the show had finished, he said, right, the game with Sean Penn, who's in Mystic River, with Lawrence Fishburne, who's in The Matrix, with Keanu Reeves, who's in Point Break, with Patrick Swayze, who stars in Dirty Dancing, straight in.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then he also just said, same comment the same with Sean Penn into milk with Victor Garber, who stars in Legally Blondes.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: So there you go.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely smashed it there, Craig Morris.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_08: He did, but then we also realised what he had realized, but because at last week we'd been doing a David Fincher film, we had the opportunity to do the greatest film ever made.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_08: According to them, according to Thomas Thorogood.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_08: Um The Social Network, directed by David Fincher, screenplayed by Aaron Saulkin, and starring Andrew Garfield and Jesse Eisenberg.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_08: Now we did just have a little viewing of this, a reviewing for the two of us, but some people haven't seen it before.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_08: Um and it's a great film.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_08: I think there's some stuff we can get into off the back of it, but Thomas, before we get any further, I put it to you.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_08: This is a good film.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_08: Some might say a great film.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_08: How is it the greatest film of all time?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, um, thanks for having me on.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, no, I do I do respect you, Nate.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um but yeah, no, I suppose in a way that needs to build it up to something.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Come on.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I mean, in a way, what is it that Louis Armstrong said about jazz?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: If if you have to ask, you'll never know.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_03: And in a way, if this isn't um a film that you find great.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_08: Am I being Emperor's new clothes at this particular point?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_08: Only clever people can see the clothes.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_08: No, no, not until the argument.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: I suppose my point is, yeah, I I don't think I can argue it in a way.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: I can't put it to words why it works so well for me.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Is this the only true Christians can see why Keller's wrong?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is this what you're saying?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need to weigh in.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: We're moving on to this.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to weigh in on the important issues of the show.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, I I suppose it just every time I watch it, it just works, you know, all the there's not a detail out of place.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I think in many ways it's a it's a timeless story, it's a story of greed and and betrayal.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's like a Greek myth in a way, it's a tragedy.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, or you could see it as a gangster movie, but it's done with sort of businesses.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um I suppose if we're thinking about it theologically, it's kind of like the empires in the Bible.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_03: So you've got the Assyrian Empire and the Babylonian and the Greek and the Roman, then they just come and go and they're just jostling for space, and that's kind of what we see in this film.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: And um, in a way, I love it because the characters are so dislikable, right?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: And they're just you know competing, yeah.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it just sort of points me to actually no, Jesus isn't like that, he doesn't throw the weakest under the bus.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, he's the strongest who sacrifices himself for the weakest.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I suppose if I had to put some words to it, that's that's it.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_08: But yeah, nice.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_08: That's very good.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_08: You but you'd still go here we go.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_08: And maybe I was unfair by saying you said it was the greatest film of all time.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_08: I have heard you say that, but maybe you actually just want to say it's your favourite film, in which case that I don't think I can sort of oh okay, you're right.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, if that sorts out the problem.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_08: No, it's a good film, right?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_08: So David Fincher is, you know, and as I say, David Fincher, Aaron Saulkin, Jesse Eisenberg, like these are fantastic actors, writers, um, directors.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_08: And uh Trent Reznor uh was the did the soundtrack, is that right?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_08: With and Atticus Ross.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_08: Atticus Ross.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_08: Really?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: I say nine-inch nails, Trent Reznor.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, apparently.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_08: Um, but what is wonderful about watching um someone's favourite film is that it was literally like sitting next to um a physical human embodiment of the IMDB trivia page as we watched it.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_08: It was um uh Thomas gave me some great little tip bits, including my favourite observation that anyone has made in a film that I've watched with them, which is he leaned over to me at one point and went, That guy was the little kid in Jurassic Park.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_08: So we could go to Jurassic Park next week if we so wanted to.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_08: Let's get back to the issue of um what does the story say?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_08: What's the theology that's being sort of presented into it?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_08: And I think Thomas is exactly right to say there's a sense of kind of Greek tragedy in it, there is a sense of Greek myth in it, but uh so I think what it does is it provides a creation myth for social media, and you see, as Thomas said, the ugliness of Mark Zuckerberg as portrayed by Jesse Iserberg from even before the camera has shown you his face.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_08: You can hear the conversation that takes place between him and is it Rooney Mara, I think his place is girlfriend at the beginning of the film.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_08: And uh he's absolutely the most obnoxious and horrendous person who seems to not understand how to relate to another human being at all.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_08: And then his reaction to him being sort of rightly dumped is to go home and uh engage in this kind of drunken uh um scam of hacking into the Facebook, which was a thing that they had early in the uh 21st century on on university campuses.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_08: There was an online portal where it's basically like a yearbook, here's a photo and and very brief information.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_08: And then uses that to birth the face mash which is this kind of rating hot girls on campus.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_08: And you see that because it's sort of birthed in in drunken bitterness and cynicism and jealousy it grows into a world of drunken bitterness, cynicism and jealousy.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_08: And it almost and and I'm not in a way I'm not even sort of making too much of a joke about that.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_08: When we talk about Tim Peller making a point on Twitter and then I mean I I think he's naive to think he's gonna say something like that and he's not gonna get all this backlash because he's been you know done he's been on Twitter, right?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_08: To see the way in which these algorithms reward outrage and and ugliness and jealousy and selfishness and like that whole thing just feels like well yeah did you see where it came from um I don't know maybe that's a bit of a rant but what what if the value of the social network as a movie is that it gives you a creation myth for the social media platforms that we all recognize as being um turned towards they they reward a kind of the the dark side of human life in a way.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_08: They can do good things too I'm not saying they can sure no exactly and I was just laughing when you said you know this world it's it's birthed in this you know this world birthed in bitterness and jealousy and yada yada yada I think to myself it's nice to you know see how Twitter has not at all gone down that road as it's followed on you know all these social medias that have kind of grown out I know he's uh Facebook but um but also what the other thing I suppose um to sort of say um when it comes to the the the the Christian response as as um as Thomas was saying we see by photonegative we see that actually Christ is not this sort of jealous proud kind of scrabbling competitive one who is kind of pushing other people out of the way to get into the top he's doing the very opposite and and the the the birth of if you like not only you know the the birth of love from Father Son and Spirit as they overflow and create that world our world is fallen but then the the birth narrative of um of the church is the one who who gives of himself that you know this is my body broken for you and that's the birth narrative of the church so so in a way it that's why it's so terrible to bring this whole thing around like it was planned is to say when we have all this debate and ugliness and bitterness and toxicity online I expect that when the church is involved in the same level of dis you know dismissive comments generalizations you know just yeah ad hominem slandering each other that's another that's not where we came from that's not that's not the Christ that we we choose to follow.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_08: And so you know it's it's easy to sort of say oh this is only the people who comment negatively under Tim Gallery but you can comment positively under Tim Gallery and still decide to throw all evangelicals under the boss because they must be stupid and you know ignorant and they would just give chapter and verse and be horrendous evangelists.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's like come on like this isn't helping it's not helping anyone right that turned into way more of a rant based on the social network than it was meant to but there we are I just feel like my irony meters exploded today you know that's why I'm not because we're talking no and because of the Kellan discussion you know and all that you know is ironic um are we gonna leave it there?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_08: I think we should we should leave it there before we get into more trouble.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: Great guys uh well thank you for joining us do hope you've enjoyed uh tonight's discussion certainly um fired some people up uh that's for sure um and do go and see the social network if you've not seen it is a great film I'm uh you say about Isenberg I generally don't like Jesse Eisenberg because I can only see him as Mark Zuckerberg and he's well he only has sort of one facial expression apart from two scenes and I think the whole film is just a sort of inhabits it so well.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_08: Just to say we can uh also we invite you to suggest the next movie bearing in mind the caveats it needs to have a link to social network yeah and in order to prevent anyone from mentioning the Trolls movie franchise because it has to be over ten years old the what the worst film of all time is the Trolls holiday special so just so clarified I saw the My Little Pony film at the cinema with my kids that was quite painful.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: But uh if you've yeah the Trolls Holiday Special is a dry wretch into the abyss something with glitter on top okay well we are now into the final musings of the podcast it's the final musings well there we go I'm joined by Paul hello hello so obviously it was it's been 18 hours since you recorded that do you have any reflections on on the topic any regrets so as I reflect on you say because we had a lot of interesting comments coming in during the actual thing there on the live chat which we didn't make huge reference to because it was obviously quite divisive and some of the comments weren't particularly constructive.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: Reflecting on the Keller a bit a bit more because that's where people seem to have the bone of contention I think some people have just taken a pop at it because it was Keller.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know would anyone have even had a discussion about this Colbert thing if Keller hadn't shared it.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if it had been another Christian who'd shared it who they liked they may have been more positive about what Stephen Colbert said.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there was a sense in which some people just use it as an opportunity to have a bash at Keller.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't when Keller commended what Colbert had said I don't think he's saying and this is the way we almost do it all the time he's saying what a good answer by this guy in this setting in this situation and I think some people read it as Tim Keller is saying this is what evangelism looks like for all of us in all settings.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: Look how liberal he's gone what a crazy guy he's not really a Christian he's woke you know all these kind of things they throw round and I'm like I mean it's the death of nuance isn't it you know um and that brings us onto the social network which uh you talked about of course and uh well mostly you talked about me but I suppose one thing I forgot to mention is that actually I think one of the reasons I like it or kind of connect with it is because it's it's quite true to the university experience.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_03: And you know I I remember at university there were these exclusive like drinking societies and stuff and you get an invite in your pigeonhole.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I didn't but that was the way and they had really bizarre initiations like you had to carry a mackerel with you for a week or something in bed and stuff.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's like when I joined Speed Life by invite only no you can all apply to the foundry by the way and we're gonna share that in a bit but I think it captures that and the the kind of toxicity of that.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean I don't know how true to life the film is you know I mean obviously it's based in the the true story of it but I don't know exactly how close it is.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that's worth saying we were talking about the character of the film not necessarily the real yeah I mean I don't really know ins and outs of what that those relationships were like and uh we mentioned the foundry how can uh people apply to that?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah so you can head over to speaklifefoundry com where you can find all the information about the foundry so that's our internship programme uh that runs uh kind of from September through sort of May or June time.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um and there are application forms on there ways you can apply you can watch uh a couple of bits of video that will tell you a bit about what goes on including Thomas's very own video no not idea little promotional video I don't know why you let me do that but um and yeah it's so that might be something that you're interested in or you might know someone who could be interested in and I suppose who who's it for well I mean it's creative it's creatives um now I I know some people just say like well I'm not very creative but often people are you are and we've got a whole mixture of kind of different abilities here you know some people who are more kind of into the the editing film side some in the more practical filming side some people more musical some people are more in graphic design and drawing and you know stuff like that.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of there's a lot of scope within that so don't think you know to yourself oh that one isn't for me because I don't do this one thing.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's quite broad.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yes so uh do check out speaklifeoundry.com the international deadline is coming up pretty soon uh mid-February and then the UK deadline is in April so we would love to meet some of you in person hopefully but don't wait till the last minute no get your applications in because it's always easier for us that way as well.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_03: The early bird catches the worm.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_03: Indeed indeed well cool it's been cool to get we need to buy all the mackerel it's been good to get your reflections kind of you you've slept on it and so you brought some new thoughts.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like uh rage build up and come out yeah you've matured like a like a fine wine smelly cheese that's me thanks for listening bye