Latest / The Podcast of Jewish Ideas / 81. The Revolutions of 1782 | Dr. Shmuel Feiner

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81. The Revolutions of 1782 | Dr. Shmuel Feiner · The Podcast of Jewish Ideas

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Greetings, friends, and welcome back to the podcast of Jewish
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  Speaker 1: Touro dot edu, or get in touch by email or
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  Speaker 1: my phone. All that info and more is in the
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  Speaker 1: podcast description. There are some specific years that have been
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: generally recognized as pivotal within the course of Jewish history.
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  Speaker 1: Years such as fourteen ninety two and nineteen forty eight
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  Speaker 1: are generally seen to have contained events of momentous importance
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  Speaker 1: such that they can be studied and analyzed in their
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  Speaker 1: own rights. On today's episode, will be speaking with a
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  Speaker 1: scholar who has made the case that another year ought
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  Speaker 1: to be considered a pivotal year of Jewish history, that
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  Speaker 1: of seventeen eighty two. It was in this year that
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  Speaker 1: a crucial number of historical processes reached their tipping point,
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  Speaker 1: culminating in, among other things, the controversies surrounding the publication
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  Speaker 1: of a manifesto titled zivreish lamver Emett, authored by the
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  Speaker 1: German intellectual and masquille Naftali hurt Wesley. The dire Shalum
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  Speaker 1: Vermett controversy of seventeen eighty two and its effects, which
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  Speaker 1: were fell throughout Europe, forms an important milestone in ushering
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  Speaker 1: in the modern age of Jewish life and thought. Today,
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  Speaker 1: we'll be discussing this year and its events with the
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  Speaker 1: scholar in question, namely doctor Schwel Feiner, who is a
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  Speaker 1: Professor emeritus of Modern Jewish History at Baryland University. Professor
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  Speaker 1: Feiner has held numerous important positions in the world of
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  Speaker 1: Jewish studies, including Chairman of the Historical Society in Israel
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  Speaker 1: and Vice president of the International Leo Beak Institute. He
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  Speaker 1: is the author of many important books on modern Jewish history,
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  Speaker 1: including and most recently, a brand new edition of all
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  Speaker 1: the primary texts surrounding the Dibre Shalomb metic controversy, along
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  Speaker 1: with notes and an introduction published in Hebrew with Mossad
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  Speaker 1: Bielik Press. It is a pleasure to welcome him to
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  Speaker 1: the Podcast of Jewish Ideas Today.
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  Speaker 2: Professor Finer, thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be
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  Speaker 3: here and to discuss the eighteenth century, which I loved
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  Speaker 3: so much.
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  Speaker 2: Excellent good.
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  Speaker 1: I'm happy to hear that you say that, because, of
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  Speaker 1: course you've written an extensive two volume biography of the
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  Speaker 1: Jewish eighteenth century. I'd like to start by diving into
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  Speaker 1: that a little bit, because you've claimed there correctly. I
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  Speaker 1: think that the eighteenth century was transformative in Jewish history,
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  Speaker 1: and I'd ask you to elaborate a bit on that.
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  Speaker 2: In what ways was.
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  Speaker 1: The eighteenth century truly a century that changed large parts
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  Speaker 1: of Jewish life?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, it was an amazing century. Just something about
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  Speaker 3: the numbers, the demography of the Jewish population at the time.
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  Speaker 3: The eighteenth century started when the Jewish population was not
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  Speaker 3: more than one point one million all around the world,
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  Speaker 3: and by eighteen hundred the population which already two zero
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  Speaker 3: point four million, So this demographic growth was very significant,
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  Speaker 3: and among the Jews in this century, we can witness
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  Speaker 3: so many interesting figures men and women. Just think about
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  Speaker 3: webbits like Jacob Amden and the Jonathan Ipesheets and the
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  Speaker 3: Vilnagaron and the bad Shemtov, and think about philosopher like
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  Speaker 3: Moses Mandison and Solomon Maimon, scientists like Marcus Hertz and
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  Speaker 3: the Marcus blog. And think about amazing women, for example,
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  Speaker 3: Greek arm the beginning of the century, the women who
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  Speaker 3: left us memoirs, which is so valuable for Jewish history
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  Speaker 3: in general and in order to understand women's life at
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  Speaker 3: the beginning of eighteenth century in particular, and at the
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  Speaker 3: end of the century, we can see intellectual women like
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  Speaker 3: for example, Moses Madison daughter daughter who wrote the first
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  Speaker 3: novel written ever by a Jewish woman. And there were
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  Speaker 3: so many inventions in the eighteenth century that today actually
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  Speaker 3: essential for our Jewish life. For example, the first modern
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  Speaker 3: Jewish school was established in seventeen seventy eight Berlin, the
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  Speaker 3: first Hebrew periodical was published in seventeen eighty three Canisburg.
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  Speaker 3: Not to mention the major movements of the century, Classifism, Sabbatianism,
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  Speaker 3: the emergence of this eretic sect of Jacob Frank in
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  Speaker 3: mid eighteenth century, the Jewish Enlightenment, and the clash between
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  Speaker 3: movements which culminated in a certain kutoka, a cultural war.
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  Speaker 3: And above everything, in my biography, and just think about
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  Speaker 3: the meaning of a biography of a century. The protagonist
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  Speaker 3: of my two volumes biography of the eighteenth century is
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  Speaker 3: the century itself, the Jewish century, and the many events
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  Speaker 3: that happened during this century. And the focus is on people, individuals.
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  Speaker 3: Using ego documents, I could penetrate life of men and women.
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  Speaker 3: And my conclusion is that this was actually the century
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  Speaker 3: when the modern Jewish individual was created. He emerged as
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  Speaker 3: an autonomous self who felt that he can actually reshape
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  Speaker 3: of her own life and make a change, make a
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  Speaker 3: difference for him and for the society. So those are
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  Speaker 3: several arguments why it was it transformably into the century.
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  Speaker 1: Fascinating, and you already touched on this to a certain degree,
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  Speaker 1: but I'd like to dive a little bit deeper. Which
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  Speaker 1: is a phenomenon that you have noted in your works,
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  Speaker 1: which is perhaps what might be called a pre Hascala
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  Speaker 1: or a full Hascala proto Hascala. It is well known
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  Speaker 1: that in the latter the last third or so of
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  Speaker 1: the eighteenth century, this new movement that came to you
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  Speaker 1: known as the Jewish Enlightenment, the Hascala, appeared within Central
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  Speaker 1: and Western Europe. But you've also pointed out that actually
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  Speaker 1: in the decades leading up to this, there was sort
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  Speaker 1: of a ramp up, a kind of a crescendo leading
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  Speaker 1: to the Jewish Enlightenment. And could you perhaps describe this
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  Speaker 1: a little bit for what did it include, what was
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  Speaker 1: the proto Hascal and how how should we conceive of
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  Speaker 1: it when we look at this whole era.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, when we speak about the haskala or the earlier scala,
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  Speaker 3: actually we speak about a small number of intellectuals. And
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  Speaker 3: what is the meaning of being an intellectual in the
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  Speaker 3: Jewish society and the eighteenth century actually tho were no
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  Speaker 3: intellectuals like academics, professors, writerals, journalists like in the surrounding
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  Speaker 3: Christian society. So mainly being intellectual meaning you are tarmidkakhan,
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  Speaker 3: you are a graduate of Yeshiva. You can master Jewish texts,
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  Speaker 3: and you can become an unofficial rabbi for example, you
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  Speaker 3: can be a preacher, you can write kabbalistic or alahk books.
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  Speaker 3: It's all in the inside internal actually context of the
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  Speaker 3: Jewish society, or I would say the rabbinical culture of
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  Speaker 3: the Jews. But already in the early eighteenth century among
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  Speaker 3: the Ashkenazi Jews. And this emphasise on Ashkenazi Jews is
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  Speaker 3: important because it's something that is frauding. For example, in
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  Speaker 3: in in the Netherlands at the time didn't need so
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  Speaker 3: much as the Ashkenazi society needed. So among the Ashkenazi
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  Speaker 3: rabbinical elite, few young Camudic scholars realized that their cultural
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  Speaker 3: horizons are too limited they're looking around, looking around, and
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  Speaker 3: they saw that among the Christian society, the scientific revolution
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  Speaker 3: is still going on started of course earlier. There are scholars,
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  Speaker 3: there are writers, there's a new philosophy, and they wanted
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  Speaker 3: to know. They were curious. They actually were attracted to what,
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  Speaker 3: in tradition terms, was considered external wisdom yours, something that
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  Speaker 3: Jews maybe don't engage with at all. That's something that
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  Speaker 3: going the others. The GENSI they should do it, and
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  Speaker 3: the Jewish should only concentrate on the Mitzvah of the Muta.
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  Speaker 3: But they didn't give up the commitment to the Jewish texts.
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  Speaker 3: But they wanted to broaden the horizons. So they actually
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  Speaker 3: the early maskilling were those young people who started to
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  Speaker 3: discover the let's say, the treasures of Jewish thought from
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  Speaker 3: the Middle Ages. They started to be interested in philosophy,
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  Speaker 3: in science. They wanted to learn foreign languages in order
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  Speaker 3: to be able to read other texts than the time
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  Speaker 3: Alaha or the Kabbalah. And then I wanted to introduce
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  Speaker 3: it to the Jewish audience. When they say audience is
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  Speaker 3: again a very limited circle of people male, of course,
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  Speaker 3: who could read Hebrew and could understand the meaning of
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  Speaker 3: the text, and therefore was the very beginning of a
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  Speaker 3: revolution that the Haskala, when he was organized properly later
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  Speaker 3: in this eighteenth century, actually wanted to introduce in a
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  Speaker 3: more formal way, like in schools and textbooks to a
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  Speaker 3: Jewish audience.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and something you noticed that which I think is
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  Speaker 1: very interesting, and suddenly about the early Hascale, I also
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  Speaker 1: about the itself, It is this kind of dual character.
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  Speaker 1: It had on the one hand, certainly a very modern
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  Speaker 1: phenomenon in as you say, a new model of the
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  Speaker 1: intellectual that's not necessarily only a town Raham, but actually
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  Speaker 1: draws their intellectual credibility from another source. But on the
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  Speaker 1: other hand, also they saw themselves was going back to
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  Speaker 1: a previous age, a golden age in which Jews once
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  Speaker 1: had knowledge of the sciences and philosophy and other such things,
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  Speaker 1: and that it has the sort of modern but also
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  Speaker 1: reaching back.
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  Speaker 2: Aspects to it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're absolutely right. The self narrative of the earlier
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  Speaker 3: masculine and even the latter masculine was that what they're
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  Speaker 3: doing it's a kind of restoration. They're not going to
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  Speaker 3: invent something or to bring something from the outside world.
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  Speaker 3: But they're going to restore a self and culture that
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  Speaker 3: because of many reasons, and again especially among the Ashkenazi society,
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  Speaker 3: was neglected. So if it's there, and of course that's
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  Speaker 3: why my money, this was their role model. Yes, they
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  Speaker 3: pointed at him and said, well, see my money. It
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  Speaker 3: could be a great prosek, it could be a great
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  Speaker 3: and it could be a great philosopher, It could be
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  Speaker 3: exposed to science. It was doctor. He was engaged in medicine,
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  Speaker 3: and he was an Aristo Italian philosopher without loving his face,
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  Speaker 3: because they needed to be apologetic. Again as there above them,
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  Speaker 3: this prohibition of engaging with cochmotritz On was always there,
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  Speaker 3: and they didn't want to be considered as aretic of
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  Speaker 3: those who actually left the Jewish region in order to
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  Speaker 3: join the Gentiles, for example.
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  Speaker 1: Oh so let's narrow our focus a little bit onto
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  Speaker 1: the year seventeen eighty two, which is the you've highlighted
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  Speaker 1: in your works before discussing Derichalonvemeta and Westley in that
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  Speaker 1: whole very interesting, very important controversy, perhaps gives a more
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  Speaker 1: general background of other important things that were going on
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  Speaker 1: at the time, political social events that took place in
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  Speaker 1: that roughly that year period, because it seemed to be
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  Speaker 1: the sort of time where everything was happening all at once.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, well, that's something that I'm enjoying doing in my
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  Speaker 3: Stokell research and writing, focusing on a very specific year
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  Speaker 3: and try to study it in depth, sometimes week after
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  Speaker 3: week or day after day. So I realized that something
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  Speaker 3: eighty two was a very significant year, and I can
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  Speaker 3: speak about it from the perspective of Moses Manderson. So
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  Speaker 3: Moses Manderson worked at the beginning of seventeen eighty two
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  Speaker 3: death is so excited and optimistic because so many good,
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  Speaker 3: positive things are happening simultaneously. So what made him so
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  Speaker 3: happy at that at the time. First of all, he
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  Speaker 3: looked from Berlin towards the Habsburg Empire, towards Vienna, and
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  Speaker 3: towards the emperor at the time in Vienna, Joseph the Second,
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  Speaker 3: who issued at the end of seventeen eighty one and
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  Speaker 3: then seventeen eighty two and a decrease of tolerance what
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  Speaker 3: in German was called Tolerance Patent for the Jews. That
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  Speaker 3: was a legislation that was one of the first modern
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  Speaker 3: actually weighs by European rulers to change the legal position
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  Speaker 3: of the Jews, the legal status. So just the title
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  Speaker 3: tells us a lot. Toleration. It's all about toleration. Joseph
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  Speaker 3: the Second was influenced by the ideas of the Enlightenment
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  Speaker 3: and he believed in religious tolerance. His empire was Catholic.
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  Speaker 3: He was a Catholic emperor. He didn't want to change it,
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  Speaker 3: but he believed that the citizens, even if they are
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  Speaker 3: not part of the religion of the empire, could be
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  Speaker 3: useful citizens. This is a very modern way of looking
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  Speaker 3: at the state and the relationship between the state and
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  Speaker 3: the citizens. So in this tolerance potent. Joseph the Second
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  Speaker 3: actually abolished some restrictions on the Jews that his mother,
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  Speaker 3: the Emperor's Maria Theresa, imposed on the Jews, and he
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  Speaker 3: encouraged the Jews to become more opened to the general society,
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  Speaker 3: firstly by sending their children to schools, to general schools
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  Speaker 3: or maybe if they don't want it, to a special
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  Speaker 3: Jewish schools that may that they may actually established by themselves.
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  Speaker 3: He wanted them to know the language of the state,
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  Speaker 3: which was German. He wanted them to be more productive economically,
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  Speaker 3: not just to concentrate on trade, but to go to
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  Speaker 3: and be maybe farmers, artisans and things like that. So
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  Speaker 3: that was one thing that Moses Medicine saw as a
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  Speaker 3: beginning of a new era. Just a couple of years earlier,
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  Speaker 3: I would say, best friends among the gentiles. The philosopher
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  Speaker 3: and the drama fist got all the flying. Lessing published
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  Speaker 3: an amazing drama, amazing play which is well known by
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  Speaker 3: the title not on Device, Not on Device. It was
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  Speaker 3: first published in seventeen seventeen nine and it's still a
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  Speaker 3: classic in German literature until today. And this is a
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  Speaker 3: play about tolerance. It takes place in medieval Palestine, actually
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  Speaker 3: in Jerusalem, and Lessing in the play took care of
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  Speaker 3: a meeting between a Christian, a Muslim, and a Jew,
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  Speaker 3: and the Jew is depicted as a very honorable and
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  Speaker 3: honest person in contrast to anti Jewish stereotypes at the time.
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  Speaker 3: And he believed that there's a lot to learn from
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  Speaker 3: this meeting in the Middle Ages, from the times of
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  Speaker 3: the Cuses between the three religions, and at the core
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  Speaker 3: of Nathan Devisor there's a famous powerable of the ring,
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  Speaker 3: and the meaning of the power bel is that at
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  Speaker 3: the bottom line, we all all believed in the same God,
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: and if we all believe in the same God, the
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  Speaker 3: differences in religions are not so important. So that was
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  Speaker 3: very important for Mosses Manderson in seventeen eighty two. And
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  Speaker 3: something else happened a few months before. Joseph the Second
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  Speaker 3: issued is Tolerance Potent, a close friend of Moses mender Zone,
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  Speaker 3: intellectual member of the Half Cleveland movement, the Enlightenment movement
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  Speaker 3: in Germany by the name Christian will Helen from Dom
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  Speaker 3: issued a booklet which was one of the first serious
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  Speaker 3: discussions in the future situation of the Jews in Europe.
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  Speaker 3: And just to summarize the essence of this important publication,
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: Dom actually put the blame for all the troubles and
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  Speaker 3: restrictions and even the character of the Jews on the state.
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  Speaker 3: The state is responsible, the Christian state is responsible, and
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  Speaker 3: the solution is that the states will change its way
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  Speaker 3: towards the Jews and the state will invest in improving
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  Speaker 3: the situation of the Jews, guiding them to be productive citizen.
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  Speaker 3: Contain very similar towards Joseph the Second actually issued a
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  Speaker 3: few months few months later. So if we take this
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  Speaker 3: and if we remember the storal context, the seventeen eighty
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  Speaker 3: two is between two big revolutions, between the seventeen seventy
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  Speaker 3: six the American Revolution and between the seventeen eighty nine
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  Speaker 3: the French Revolution. We can understand that it was a
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: mini thankful year four Europe, and it was again from
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  Speaker 3: the perspective of mos Madisine. I can adopt here in
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: order to explain the importance of the year, that something
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  Speaker 3: really significant was happening in this particular year. But of
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: course many other things happen, and that just let me
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: add a comment which is very very important. We speak
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: about early masculine, we speak about the emperor, the intellectuals,
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  Speaker 3: the lesson who wrote a drama. We only speak about
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: the elite. But life in seventeen eighty two for most
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  Speaker 3: people all over the world and in Europe too, was
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  Speaker 3: not so let's say, bright and happy, nice and optimistic.
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  Speaker 3: Most people actually were straggling to survive. Life was still short,
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  Speaker 3: Infant mortality was very very high, and people actually suffered.
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  Speaker 3: Medicine was not so developed yet. So, just to put
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: it in the right proportions, when we speak about the elite,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: we shouldn't actually neglect all the others, the farmers, the servants,
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  Speaker 3: the poor, the criminals among them, also some Jews. So
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: that's important comment in order to put things into proportions.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, there's obviously something that those you study history shouldn't
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: forget when we talk about these big chain as you mentioned,
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  Speaker 1: a play being written or a new you know, new laws.
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  Speaker 2: Being put into effect or other sort of things.
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  Speaker 1: Uh, we are in effect, as you say, talking about
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  Speaker 1: those who have left their mark on history, and namely
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  Speaker 1: those with those who could readers who could write, those
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: who could put into effect these kinds of intellectual revolutions. Which, yeah, anyway,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: let's uh, let's move on specifically to our topic a
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: little bit, the whole the Chalum controversy, because this is
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: something very important. So to begin with, let us talk
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: a little bit about the central protagonist of the story,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: namely Naftali Hurts Vesley. So if you could perhaps tell
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: us a little bit, you know, who he was, where
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: he was from, what he was doing, what he involved
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: himself with, because him as a character is a very
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: important aspect of the story, both this particular year and
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: also just the development of Hascalalam more generally.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, so thank of all, it wasn't let's say, an
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  Speaker 3: heroic figure he didn't have any he didn't have any position.
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  Speaker 3: He wasn't a rabbi, he wasn't a community leader. We
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: would say that he was one of the ordinary Jewish
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: people of his time. So that's what makes him actually
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  Speaker 3: extraordinary because we can see the opportunities that a person
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: like him could have in the eighteenth century. He could
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  Speaker 3: express his individuality, He could be an autonomous person even
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  Speaker 3: without holding any official position. He was born in Hamburg.
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  Speaker 3: He was he worked in commerce, but he also had
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: good education, would say Talmudic education, and from an early
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: age he actually he fell in love with the Hebrew language,
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: so he would language was all his life and it
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: became kind of linguistic. He wrote poetry, he wrote commentaries
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: and all the time. Like other early Muskaline. He also
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: believed that there's something wrong in Jewish education. Ibro is
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: not taught properly. Actually, Ibro is not taught at all
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: in heather or in Yeshiva. He believed that the main
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: emphacise in traditional Jewish education is on the Talmud, But
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: what about the tag what about the the Torah? Most
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: people don't even understand the worlds of the Torah without
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: translation into Yiddish in the certainly not women, but even
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: among men. And what about Navm and Vim? What about
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: those important sources that we neglect. So it thought about
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: changes changing in Jewish education from a very early age,
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: in and in in his life. And then he moved.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: He moved to Copenhagen, and then he moved to Berlin,
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: and then in Berlin working discussing things with people. Again,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: he was of an important person at all, and we
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: could actually skip him in Jewish history at all. And
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: one day he read in the newspaper that they're in Vienna.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: The Joseph the second the Emperor came out with a
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: very ambitious plan for the jury. And he became excited
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: and he believed that this is the right thing for
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: the Jews. We should accept it. And he uh decided
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: to write a small pamphlet which became a manifestival. As
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: you said at the beginning of our discussion, he called
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: it Divvers along the met And actually it wasn't a book.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: It was like an essay that should have been published
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: in a newspaper, but there was no Jewish periodical yet,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: so he did something like it, wrote a letter. He
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: believed that he is writing a letter. That's why. Actually
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: he called it along the matt referring to the end
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: of the Meguillatis style. In this open letter actually that
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: he sent to specific addresses in Europe. It wasn't just
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: published for people to buy and read. He sent it
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: to a specific persons in Europe, mainly to Webbie. And
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: we know it. And we know who got a copy
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: of the lacial along their math worlds of Peace and Truth,
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: because we have responses. We know who we acted, we
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: know who wrote about it. So h this was a
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: very let's say, unusual way for an ordinary Jewish man
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: who wanted his voice to be heard. So he didn't
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: have any media available, and this was this was the
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: age of letters. Eighteenth century was the age of letters.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: So he published, he wrote an open an open letter.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: And it didn't realize that this open letter, very modest,
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: eight short chapters, would become so important. It's a turning
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: point in Jewish history. And it didn't realize that opposition
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: will be so so feels and strong.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: So this is interesting.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: I want to get to this opposition and the fallout
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: from it in a moment, but let's for a moment
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: focus on the contents of the because this is I mean,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: it is a fascinating documentary, you say, very short, very readable.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: You get through it quite quickly, and of course I
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: recommend those interested to pick up your new edition of it.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: But just in general, I mean, firstly, what was what
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: was being advocated in d Rich And secondly, you know,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: the the Hascal is often seen as a sort of
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Jewish version of Jewish extension of the European Enlightenment, and
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: the met as a founding doctor document, a core document
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: of the Haskala. To what extent could it be seen
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: to reflect ideas, themes that they may have picked up
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: its broader readings and broader philosophical trends that were going
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: on in Europe at the times. He gives me an
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: account of what this document had.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: Yes, okay, there are two questions. Actually this I should yes, sir,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: but first let's speak about the general Enlightenment. I also
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: support the arguments that the Hascala was the Jewish case
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: of the European Enlightenment, but I wouldn't say that it
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: was an extension because it was very very unique and specific.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: For example, in the Brescia lumbe Met you cannot find
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: any citations taken from one of the famous philosophers of
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: the Enlightenment in Europe at the time. No citations of
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: Rousseau or Montesquier or Voltaire or Emanuel Kant. It's it's
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: in Hebrew. The language is a clear, good Hebrew. But
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: all the references are to Jewish sources, Theramudic sources and
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: philosophical Jewish sources and and others. This means it's very
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: internal phenomenon. So but on the other hand, Vise or Versily,
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: as many other masquelle, were part of the general climate
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: of the Enlightenment, and he also he also, like other philosophers,
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: was very critical about the present, about institutions, about leadership.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: His main target was the Jewish traditional educational system, and
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: at the very beginning of the Dressia al met Is said,
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: that's the right way to teach our children. So this
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: is the meaning that what is going on now is
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: wrong and should be changed. That's one thing. And the
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: other point, which was command to the Enlightenment in all
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: other countries in Europe and the Jewish Enlightenment too. He
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: believed in the possibility of improvement, that we can change
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: things that we consider wrong. We can't actually change we
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: shouldn't take it for granted. And if we remember the
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: important essay by Immanuel Kant that is half what is
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: Enlightenment from seventeen eighty four, just two years after the
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: racialong met. The main arguments of can't trying to explain
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: what is the meaning of the target of the enlightenment,
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: That people should think by themselves, as they shouldn't take
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: any authority for granted. This is a revolutionary idea because
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: from that you can go to many many radical directions,
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: of course, and this is a threat for those who
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: believe the traditions should be kept forever. So criticism believed
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: in the possibility of improvement and rationalism. That means all
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: the arguments should be rational, could call the argument should
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: help the human being to be better, to conduct their
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: life better. So and that brings me to the other
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: part of your of your question. Divci Met was an
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: essay on modern Jewish education. Actually it was the first
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: modern essay on Jewish education. So it was critical concerning
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: mainly the Kaderin and it presented the first time ever
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: in Jewish history a full program how to establish a
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: modern Jewish school. The curriculum should be divided into two parts,
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: one who's called toat Elohim or tata sen what today
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: would say Limu dai kodesh. And the other part was
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: tata adam knowledge of teaching of men or the other
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: disciplines everything history, geography, science and languages. And the distinction
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: was very very important because until Visel and until this
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: program only to a shame him was part of the curriculum,
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: and he, like Elie Maskillin, but now in a more
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: mature and organized way, wanted that the school itself will
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: actually stand on two legs, the specific Jewish leg and
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: the general universalistic leg of the general general education. And
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: then it wasn't enough for him. In this small modest
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: pamphlet device around ver Met, you can find details of
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: the school. For example, it should be divided into classes.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: There are exams in order to graduate from one class
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: to another. The teacher should be professional, not just someone
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: who couldn't find any other professions. So they made Himmelambon.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Now he wanted the teachers to be professional, and he
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: wanted to write textbooks. He said, we don't have textbooks
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: for everything, not just for the mooday hall, not just
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: for the general subjects, but also for limouday college, we
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: need proper textbooks. So this is a comprehensive plan for
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: the establishment of modern Jewish schools. And I really believe
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: that this was something that change us as Jews forever.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: Right, Yes, And this last point you mentioned, I think
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: that's actually very interesting because one of the things one
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: admires about Wesley is that he was quite a practical man,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: unlike some other philosophers or like and think as well
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: in masculine He he really as you said, he he said,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: you know, we have certain principles, but also here is
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: how we put them into effect, which which again it
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: was not a universal character a characteristic Let's say, okay,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: I'd like to then sort of move slightly on within
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: on the in our timeline and ask about the effect.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: So dishel Met, this original essay goes out and it's
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: sort of a sent and spread to different centers in Europe.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Who reads it? What happens when they read it?
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: What are the effect of this, this manifesto, this early
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: musculic document as as a percolats around Europe.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: So this is really an amazing affair that again basically
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: didn't expect it. It came as a surprise to him.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: I think that he believed that most people will agree
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: with him, and whether there was always the first model
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: of modern the Jewish school, and mentioned it before it
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: was established four years earlier, in believing the Raischule, the
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: free school for students from poor Jewish families who could
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: attend the school and get some general education in Berlin.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: But the open letters, the version of the math actually
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: which those people that he wanted them to read again,
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: especially Webbis of communities very quickly and they all got
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: it before Shabbat a gadol, the shabbat before before Pessa.
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: That was in the spring of seventeen eighty eighty two.
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: We know that Rebbis Klando from praguea maybe the most
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: important being. Also at the time, we know that the
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: Rabbi of Frankfurt has a copy, the Rabbi of Lisa
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: in Western Poland, we know that webbi Is in London
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: had copies. And we have rumors that we cannot really
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: establish in andred percent that the vinegaron the copy and
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: the even order to burn it in front of the synagogue.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: But again we are not sure if this is a
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: legend or historical fact. Anyway, it got to all those
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: important rabbinical leaders at the time, and a few of
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: them actually referred and discussed the Russia met in their
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: Shabbata Russia before before Pessar, because we have copies a
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: few of them. We have the copy of Rabbi Rabbi
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: David of Lissa, a sermon in Chabbata Go Dog seventeen
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: eighty two, Tough Coop MEMBERT. We have a copy of
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: Rabbi Rescerlando sermon of Schabatagadol, again referring to to the
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: version a very meth and adviser. And when we read
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: those reactions, we realize that those wherebis knew exactly what
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: the threat is. None of them was opposed to introducing
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: general subjects into Jewish education. Certainly notez Lando was under
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: the authority of Joseph the Second, so it said, we
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: don't have any opposition to dodge the second policy and
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: his demand that Jewish children we know some German or
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: some arithmetic or geography. So this is not the main point.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: So what was the main point? The main point was there.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: They will shiver, they were shocked. There's an ordinary person
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: like Natalia healths had the carriage or the hotspa, I
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: would say to send those open letters and called upon
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: the Jews all around Europe to accept his plan. He
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: introduced a plan, but they said, and I'm quoting nows
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: from rebby David from Lisa. He said something like that,
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: who are you who gave you the permission to step
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: on the public stage and tell us what we should do.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: We don't have. You don't have the authority. You are
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: hed the or by your team, he said, meaning you're
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: a leman. You are not an a them rabbi. You
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: don't have any say in the public discussions. Something not
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: in matters that the concerns the entire Jewish Jewish society.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: This means they could not accept the initiative of an
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: orternary person to come out and to speak in public.
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: And who can give you one of the most extreme
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: reactions to the dress along vermat And that was the
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: story of the Berlin's rabbi. The Rebbe of Berlin in
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: knew all the protagonists in you vasily in New Mendicine.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: He appreciated them, and of course in you those rabbis
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: all around Europe. His name was three hillge Living. He
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: came to Berlin and took the office of the Webbi
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: from from London and did something really unbelievable. He felt
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: so frustrated and under such strong pressure that he could
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: not buried any anymore. So he left the community by night,
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: actually escaped Berlin without any note, without telling anybody in
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: the community, and when he disappeared, they found a letter
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: to the leaders of the community apologizing saying that I'm
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: really sorry that I had to do this, but I
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: couldn't stand it anymore. So I left without noticing because
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: I am in the middle of big pressure. You pressure
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: from all the ventions the web, from Prague, from London,
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: from Frankfurt writing me letters asking me to punish Vesily
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: because of this foods but that he actually dared to
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: publish diversial on the met. On the other hand, my
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: friends in Berlin, like Madisone and other Masqueline are asking
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: me to defend Vesily and to tell all the rabbis
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: that is innocent. There's no reason to actually persecute him
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: as a criminal as anoetic who did something terrible. So Rabbit,
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: it's v Levin left resigned, actually left a letter of
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: telling why he need to resign, and he even told
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: them I'm not going to tell you what is my destination.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: I'm already out of the city. I'm going to send
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: my life and my belongings up to me, and maybe
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: we're going to find a shelter in the Holy Land.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: So may his first idea was to escape and to
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: to go to Arthsil in order to be far away
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: from the storm of the controversy over the vacial environment.
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: So that's actually a few things that happened, among many
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: many others. In the new edition of The Visual Envernment,
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: I actually included a timeline following, sometimes day by day,
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: what happened in this affair. I dedicated the few chapters
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: in my book The Jewish Enlightenment to describe in details
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: this controversy. And as say, as I said before, I
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: believe that Vesily didn't expect it to happen in such
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: a huge.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Dimension interesting, and but when it did happen, so various
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: other figures in Europe started writing, so these these contrary
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: these letters that in order to counter Wesley, and Wesley
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: wrote a series of a few letters, and in fact
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: your edition and all editions of The Division unver Med
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: as a volume typically have that first chapter, the first
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Manifesto of divisil ver Met, and then a series of
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: letters that Wesley writes, one after another, trying to defend
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: his positions or trying to clarify his positions, or trying to,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: you know, show how they are in fact within the
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: boundaries of what should be accepted within Judaism. Man, So
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: could you perhaps elaborate a bit on that, meaning where
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: does Wesley go from there? And the written record, let's say,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: of these letters, these again, these public letters that were
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: they were published, and what can we see?
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Is there a change?
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: Is there a sort of evolution that we can see
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: as Wesley righting? And what does he try and do
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: and how does he try to pacify those who are
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: critiquing him?
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, Again, he was very surprised to find himself
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: the eye of the storm. And because he didn't feel
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: didn't feel guilty, and it didn't even as I understand it,
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: he didn't get the main point that the WEBBI is
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: actually understood immediately and the main point, and this is
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: the revolution of the Jewish Jewish Enlightenment. The main point
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: is that when published the Duation along there met and
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: actually demanded a voice in the Jewish public sphere. He created,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: without being aware, he created the modern Jewish intellectual, meaning
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: the intellectual who is not part of the orbanical need,
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: who does not rely on his authority as a wherebi,
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: who is not rely on let's say, religious texts, but
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: only on his belief, his way of reading the historical
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: context of his time. And it's believed that this is
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: the right thing to do for his brothers in a
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: certain way. And I said it very very carefully. This
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: is the creation of the secular Jewish intellectual. Secular not
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: because that he didn't believe. He did not because he
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: didn't practice Judaism. Because indeed, in our terms, we could
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: consider Vasily as an authodox when it comes to belief
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: and practicing, the same as we should consider Moses Mendesine.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: But he was a secular intellectual because he wasn't part
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: of the rabbinical elith, so he didn't have the legitimacy
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: to speak out. And the Webbis who opposed him, they
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: realized they put the fingers exactly on this this point
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: and basically didn't understand it. He believed that it's still
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: a controversy between those who support the needs of yours
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: and those who are against it. So he actually wanted
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: to support of a different group of rabbis, and he
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: approached webbis in Italy and he asked them to support him,
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: and he was very successful, and actually he got few
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: supportive letters from Italian rabbis who said that nothing wrong
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: in the vi Met, nothing wrong in this kind of education,
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: and this is something that we do normally in Italy,
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: So why Ashkenazi rabbis attacked him so vehemently. So this
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: was one way of defending himself, and the other way
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: was actually to to converse with the criticism. So it
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: became very, very apologetic and in the other sections of
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: The Visual Lover Met, the more that we more after
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: the vision. After The Visional Lover Met, published between seventeen
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: eighty two and seventeen eighty eighty five, he said, you
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: may actually understood me only because I didn't really want
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: our children to engage all the time in school with mathematics, philosophy,
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: languages and others. That was more like a supplement. And
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: he tried to describe the original program. There's a lot more,
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: let's say, modest, than it was in the in the
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: first manifesto. I think that he was anxious about the
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: reactions and he was not the only person who took
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: it so.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: So hard.
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: I lately actually more into the history of emotions in
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: Jewish history, and there's so many emotions in the Vesi affair.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: The rabbis, the preachers said they were anxious, they were angry,
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: and the Vesili was fasted frustrated. So sometimes trying to
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: follow the feelings, the emotions of the protagonists in any
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: historical event, and in this event in particular, you can
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: learn a lot about its its significance.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: Right, okay.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: And so as you said this, this affair really resounded
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: throughout Europe. And let me ask you a little bit
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: about the after effects of this affair in your opinion,
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: in what way was this affair a turning point? In
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: what way did this change the intellectual or religious or
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: social map of European jury in such a way that
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: it had a noticeable effect on what occurred in the
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: decades following.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I'm stolen of the Jewish project of modernity.
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: So that's my main question. In all my publications and books,
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: I tried to deeply understand what was the structure of
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: the project of modernity, what was its meaning, and why
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: it became such a to aumatic experience for many Jews,
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: not just in the eighteenth century. I think that many
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: things that happened in the eighteenth century are still with
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: us today. So some problems that were firstly opened in
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: the eighteenth century are not yet completed and finished. And
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: maybe the main example, which is so relevant to the
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: virtual alm the met is the attitude towards non Jewish culture.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: And of course we know that among the Aultra Orthodox
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: there is some anxiety even today, a feeling that if
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: students will be exposed to foreign culture, they are going
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: to leave their religion and lose their faith. But even
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: among let's say more moderate Orthodox circles, we got the
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: idea that the Jews should only develop their own culture
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: and other things are less less important. So this was
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: firstly opened by Vesily in seventeen eighty two, and it's
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: still with us with us today. But of course, when
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: we look from the point of view of the twenty
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: first century, we see that the ideas and programs of
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: Vesily and the Maskilline actually one and today, not just today.
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: I think already in the nineteenth century we can see
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: that the modern Jewish school became the normal phenomena in
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: most Jewish communities. This is the way that Jewish education
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: is constructed in the state of Israel, and believe also
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: in in America and and maybe all over. And we
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: still have the minority of those educational institutions under the
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: Hawaidi supervision that have some some some rejection. But it's
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: not only about education. Education is the door towards a
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: major change in Jewish identity. And this is the core
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: of the project of Jewish modernity, the change in identity
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: from vastly onwards, it became obvious, I think for most
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: use in the world that Jewish identity is very complex.
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: There is no way to be member of the modern
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: world just by having you traditional identity, because you need
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: to be also a citizen of your country. You have
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: to be also a member of the general society. Doesn't
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: matter if you are in the diaspora the majority are
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: known Jewish, or if you are in Israel, and the
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: society is very diverse and there are so many kinds
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: of ways to express you Judaism. So Jewish identity has
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: a change, and that was actually also the beginning of
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: a certain i would say explosion among the Jewish people,
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: which is so important in the Jewish modern project of modernity.
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: Because when this door was opened and education changed, and
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: the relationship between the Jewish society and the non Jewish
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: society changed. When emancipation came and Jews became citizens of
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: the countries from America to France in the French evolution
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: and then nineteenth century in Germany and most of the
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: European European countries, that means the Jews could become whatever
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: they wanted. They used those opportunities, and that was the
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: way for Jews to be brilliant scientists, That was the
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: way for Jews to be journalists, to be writers in
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: many languages, and that was the way and the only way,
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: according to my opinion, to think about new directions for
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: the Jewish people. So that was essential for the emergence
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: of Jewish nationalism in general and Zionism in particular. We
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: cannot imagine Zionism, We cannot imagine the project of an
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: autonomous state for the Jews without the revolution that happened
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: in the eighteenth century, without emancipation, without the emergence of
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: the modern secular intellectual without actually the cultural war that
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: diminish the authority and the power of religious institutions and
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: the rabbinical elite on the other way, I'm arguing for
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: something that it was so obvious in the past, but
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: I think that today we should emphasize it more and more.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: That without secularization, which is also one of my main
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: subjects of interest and research. With our secularization, the Jewish
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: society as we see today and Israel and all in
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: all over the world would be impossible. That's why learning
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: the eight transformed in eighteenth century. Learning revolutions like the
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: one that we introduced in Dibrasion along the met in
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: Jewish education are so important only also.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: For us today fascinating and I mean I fully agree.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: And on that note, I'd like to ask your final
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: sort of significant question, which is that Dvential it seems
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: an interesting document for many reasons. One of the words
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: is that it seems to be quite optimistic. In other words,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: it's seems to envision a wonderful future for the Jews,
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: where you know, you can have this, this secular learning
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: along religious learning, and you could have the two and
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: go back to a golden age and have this and
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: it paints a very very wonderful picture. And as you say,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: it makes sense because in eighteen seventy two there was
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: also other developments and laws of toleration and place being written,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: et cetera. It seems to me that as the Hascala
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: wears on to a certain degree, a lot of this
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: optimism is a bit lost, and there is the setting
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: in of reality. Is this a good characterization, I mean,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: did you see that within Wesley's own life or where
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: would you place the sort of optimism and pessimism or
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: stark realism within the Hascala within muscular literature.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: I think it's a good question, because I think that
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: the optimistic spirit of the eighteenth century, it's one things
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: that became so effective for me studying the eighteenth century
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: but living in the twenty first century. But we should
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: of course generalize verasily. He was optimistic. He really believed
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: that face program could be implemented and that would be
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: not just good, it will guarantee a bright future for
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: the Jews. On the other hand, I mentioned Moses mandersone earlier,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: and in my biography of Moses Manderson I paid attention
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: to its changing actually attitudes and moods. He could be
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: optimistic like he was in seventeen eighty two, and what
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: I just explained when he saw Joseph the second and
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: Lessing Natin the Wise and the dorm about the improvement
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: of the Jews. And he believed that this is the
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: right way for history to go. And he was very optimistic.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: But later he became less optimistic and even maybe pessimistic
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: because he started to suspect the good will of the
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: Emperor of Austria at the time. Maybe this is all
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: this was only a scheme to persuade us the Jews
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: to converge something like that. And then when he followed
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: the readily affair very closely, and he was so disappointed
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: that Webbis actually could accept it and attacked his good
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: friends and neighbor and suspected him of being harris or
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: something like that because he suggested something that was so
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: good in order to improve Jewish Jewish education and Medisone
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: was also challenged more than once by people if he
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: believed are good friends among Christians, and they told him
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: something like, well, you are so rationalist, you are so
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: such good philosopher, and you believe in the values of
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: the Enlightenment. Why don't you recognize the rules of Christianity?
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: And was so offended, so frank passipated, he said, well,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: why can't you accept me as as as a voted Jew,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: Why do you need me to convert? Something is wrong
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: in your perception of the Enlightenment if you cannot consider
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: me a human being that and not someone who is
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: a candidate to be a part of of your of
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: your religion. And then he became very pessimistic. So I
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: think that Asily became persionistic because he couldn't understand why
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: he is so so much affect by by the Rabbis.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: He didn't do anything. He just wanted to do something
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: good for his for for his brother. So I agree
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: that hope was very essential for the Enlightenment. Without hope,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: without some optimism, without belief that human being can improve
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: itself and can guarantee a better life for men and women,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: they couldn't actually say anything critical about their time and
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: something and introduced new plans for the future. So that
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: towards the age age of hope. That's why we have
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: all those evolutions in America in France, because they people
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: believed that they can change there and they can change
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: their life and can change it to the better. They
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: can get rid of the spotic rulers, they can become
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: more democratic. But then came only well it happened. I
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: think a lot in history, after a phase of hope
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: and optimist there is some fall and some feeling of
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: translation and disappointment. Uh, we are still there in a
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: certain way.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, in that sense.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: The promise of the Enlightenment in Theascal I never never
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: quite lived up to its billing. And finally, finally, before
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: I let you go, a question I asked many of
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: my guests, which is going something as follows. If you
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: could sit down tonight to dinner with with your subject,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: with with NOTHI hurts vesty, and I just.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: Talked to him and ask him questions. What would you
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: want to know? What would you want to be? Asking him?
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: How do you how do you use that time?
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: Well, actually I did it, and may surprise you, but
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: I did it already because I didn't answer me. I
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: didn't answer back. But Nathalie els VESII is buried in
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: the old Jewish Cemetery in Altona. Altona is now a
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: neighborhood of Humble, but it used to be a separate
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: the city under the rule of the Danish Kingdom. So
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: this is a very interesting Jewish cemetery and it's famous
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: because the two rabbis that I mentioned at the beginning
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: of discussion, Jacob Empten and Johnathan Ipsheetz are buried in
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: so people try to come and visit those waves and
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: put on them. But the cemetery is divided into two sections.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: One is the Ashkenazi section and one is the Sadi section,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: and Natalia's versi pure Ashkenazic. He's buried in the Swadi section,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: and there is evidence why he is there. He specifically
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: asked he was in Hamburg in his last last days,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: and he specifically asked the the Spadi Jewish community leaders
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: permission to be buried there because he admired the Fadi
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 3: way of of Hebrew, for example, and because he actually
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: was disappointed by those Ashkenazim who affect him, and he
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: found more, he found more agreement among Spaudi Stadic rabbis,
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: so he wanted to be Swadik after when he when
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: it's that when he's died. So I came and I
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: did ask him a few questions, and my main my
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: main question was why did you need to be so
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: apologetic in the next part of the Vera Salon met
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: You didn't do anything anything wrong. You could actually you
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: could stick to your principles, uh, and nothing was wrong.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: And I also wanted to tell him that I actually
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: I admired his courage and how an orternary person could
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: change history and be so important because he wanted his
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: voice to be to be heard. So I think that
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: Vesil is less known than Moses Mendestone, but in a
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: certain way is a lot more important when it comes
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: to the impact. And he had a vision. We spoke
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: to earlier about optimism or pessimism, but the vision is
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: always important. And he had this vision and it was
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: very successful because we are all now live exactly as
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: Lesily wanted us to leave. I say all, of course,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: not one hundred percent, but I think on entires spectrum,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: except for more radical right wing concerning religion, we actually
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: adopted the long met.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, wow, that's I agree with you.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: That I would also, you know, encourage him or say
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: to him, you know, have a that you you you
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: didn't show more of a spine and just you know,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: I'm stick to your principles. But I suppose I understand
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: if you have the whole Rabbinets of Europe coming down
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: on your head.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure that would do to me.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: Either anyway, Professor Schmoll, fine that thank you so much
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: for this conversation. This is fascinating insight into the year
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: seventeen eighty two and it's affecting Jewish history, and we
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: are very grateful that you took the time to come
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: join us on the podcast Jewish Ideas and we look
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: forward to seeing what you produce next.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: Soda Band, thank you very much for having me.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: This has been the podcast of Jewish Ideas by Tora
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: in Motion, produced by Alisha Kellman and myself Jjkimbrie, edited
• 1:09:58
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• 1:10:00
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• 1:10:03
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• 1:10:07
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