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Dean Dwyer: Persevering Through Trials Of Life & The Spirit Of Heaviness · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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  defending biblical Christianity, no topic, off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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  Welcome to another episode of World View Matters.
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  God bless you.
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  If you click on Harbinger's Daily today, look what you'll see at the top.
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  So we're getting some major exposure, praise God.
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  And with that being said, not only thank you to Harbinger's Daily, I want to mention we
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  have less than 100 seats available at this point.
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  And we're recording this from when you're watching this now.
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  We recorded this about a week, a week and a half ago, roughly at least a week ago.
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  So today that we're recording it, we have less than 100 seats.
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  So 100 tickets left.
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  If you're seriously thinking about coming to Green Bay, Wisconsin, May 1st and 2nd, Delta
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  Hotel, 12 speakers, 15 sessions, two days, packed full of encouragement, wisdom from expert
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  speakers.
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  And by the way, both nights, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday, May 1st and 2nd, we're
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  planning a Q&A around table with all the speakers that are available from that day
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  to answer any question you might have.
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  So I think it's really going to be a benefit to the body of Christ.
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  So worldviewmattersconference.com.
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  Speaking of a brothers in Christ and expert speakers, I love this brother from Australia.
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  He's got a page over at Harbinger's Daily.
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  We're giving them another plug because they have been so supportive of me personally and
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  my brother from Australia, Isaac Street Baptist Church.
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  His name is Dean Dwyer, Pastor Dean.
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  Good to see you.
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  Good to connect with you.
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  Thank you, brother, for coming on again.
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  Likewise, your precious friend and brother, David, so I always appreciate the opportunity.
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  Thank you.
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  Yes, yes.
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  I really appreciate your perspective.
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  And we often talk about the differences in the churches in Australia versus America.
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  But today, I just wanted to be Holy Spirit-led, free-flowing conversation.
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  And I love your suggestion about the topic today because a lot of people, whether you're
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  in America or Australia or anywhere else in the world, if you're a Christian, there's
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  a lot of darkness.
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  Some might say it's oppression, but it is a spirit of heaviness.
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  That's in the Bible.
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  That's in the Scriptures.
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  It talks about that in...
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  Where is that?
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  Isiah 61.
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  That's right.
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  Isiah 61.
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  There's three.
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  Yep.
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  In the future, there will exchange a spirit of heaviness for a garment of price.
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  Talk to us about that.
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  Yeah, talk to us about that.
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  And we can read the whole thing if you'd like to the first three verses or just talk to us
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  about that and just maybe what's going on in your life.
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  What are you sensing as a pastor?
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  What are the true believers in Christ in Australia sensing and how do they deal with the spirit
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  of heaviness?
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  Sure.
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  So as a pastor and David, you obviously heavily involved in church life and in and amongst
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  brothers and sisters and personally, your own personal story, we all know that there
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  is an intense amount of suffering at the moment.
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  And so within our congregations, within the broader Christian community, we sense that
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  there's a higher degree of suffering at the moment.
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  And I guess this is indicative of where we're at in the closing days of the age of grace.
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  It was CS Lewis who once said that we are not necessarily doubting that God will do
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  the best for us, but we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be.
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  And so I've always liked that quote because, in the minds of Christians sometimes, because
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  the enemy likes to introduce doubt into our life, then what he will do sometimes is get
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  us to try and doubt the sovereign will and plan of God in our life.
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  And doubt the fact that God still has his eyes upon us even when we're suffering as
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  well.
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  So to me, that's a really good quote to keep things in perspective because we know that
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  in this life, we are told that suffering will be a part of this life.
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  And in fact, the Apostle Paul in Philippians had said that to know Christ intimately, which
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  was his goal, he knew that he had to have fellowship with his sufferings.
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  And so when you look at how the Greek defines fellowship, which is Coenania, an active
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  participation in a common life, then the Apostle Paul knew that if we wanted to know Christ
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  as intimately as he desired, then he would need to be comfortable with the fact that he
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  was going to suffer.
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  And we know from the scriptures that he did indeed suffer, probably more than any of us will
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  ever do.
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  So we see though that in Christianity, this concept of suffering is foreign in some circles
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  because you look at the prosperity movement, for instance, and they see no value in
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  suffering.
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  And of course, we know that through the health and wealth gospel, they promote the fact
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  that Christians shouldn't need to suffer.
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  Christians can be healthy.
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  They can be wealthy if you follow this formula or call this number or give this amount
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  of money.
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  But that is foreign to the Bible.
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  That's not a formula that exists within the framework of this current age, nor was
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  it ever a formula that worked on the mission field either because we know that the great missionary
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  movements of the past, they knew that there was a direct correlation between the advancement
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  of the gospel and the amount of suffering that they would have to endure for the cause
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  of Christ.
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  So even though it's probably an unwelcome part in our Christian life, so to speak, we
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  know that it's also a necessary part as God continues His work to conform us to the
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  likeness of Christ as well.
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  Yeah.
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  So many scriptures come to mind, Dean, when we're talking about this, when Jesus said in
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  John 1633, he said, in me, you will have peace.
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  And then he said, in this world, nice contrast, peace, and then in this world, you will have
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  tribulation.
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  And then he encouraged us again by saying, but take heart.
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  I have overcome the world.
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  And it's just a good reminder of where our hope should be.
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  But I'd like to go back to Isaiah 61 and read those first three verses in context because
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  Jesus actually quoted them when he was preaching in the synagogue once.
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  I think it's the gospel of Luke, but Isaiah 61 verse one, the spirit of the Lord God is
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  upon me because the Lord has anointed me to preach good tidings, good tidings to the
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  poor.
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  He sent me to heal the broken hearted to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening
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  of the prison to those who are bound to proclaim the year of the Lord, the acceptable year of
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  the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God to comfort all who mourn, to console those
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  who mourn in Zion, to give them beauty.
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  Here's the great exchange, beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of
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  praise for the spirit of heaviness that they may be called trees of righteousness, the
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  planting of the Lord that he may be glorified.
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  Anywhere other thoughts on that, Dean, before we move on?
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  That's what it's all about, isn't it, that he be glorified?
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  And even in the midst of our suffering and the heaviness, we know that if we're surrendering
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  or yielding to the work of the spirit in our life, then even though we might not see
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  any value in suffering, we know that God is at work and we know that ultimately he works
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  in us that he may be glorified, his message conveyed.
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  And of course, we know that we're a witness to those around us, not only in the Christian
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  community, but also out in the secular community as well, that if we're enduring as a good
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  soldier of Jesus Christ, if we're suffering well, so to speak, then that can be a great
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  witness to those because it lets others know the hope that is within us.
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  And it was Hudson Taylor when he was meeting with a young fellow who was considering
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  going out on the missionary fields.
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  They were sitting across from one another and they both had a cup of tea in front of
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  them.
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  And Taylor, all of a sudden bang the table so hard that the tea spilled out of the cup.
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  And his lesson to this young fellow was that what will come out of you at that time when
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  the trials come was so important, just as the tea spilled out of the cup.
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  He said, when you are buffered by those trials and they will come, you will get to learn
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  what's in you by what comes outside of you.
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  And so the aim of course through the work of the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit
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  is to bring out the fruit of the Spirit in us so that it may be an encouragement to those
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  around us and also a witness and perhaps conviction to those who are not saved around
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  us as well.
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  But what a witness we can have because the world doesn't understand how some, hopefully
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  most, believers in Christ can keep their faith and their sanity and this perspective of
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  trust in God in some of the worst of circumstances and some of the harshest trials.
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  Just with some of you know, you hear, here's one example, you hear it in the news every
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  now and then it comes up in the news cycle where someone's family member was brutally
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  killed or by a drunk driver or a murder and a Christian family will forgive the one
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  that killed the, and the world is like, how, how do you do that?
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  Well without God, this is impossible, right without Jesus and the forgiveness we have received.
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  We see a lot of examples of this, the world doesn't know but it is a witness to the world.
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  Amen and I think that there was one quote that I've always held on to and I forget who
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  had said it but they said that we must get the fleshly thought cast out of our mind that we can
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  serve God better in our comfort than in our suffering and so I think and the quote went on to say
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  that the more you want to serve him the harder his lesson is going to be and I think David for
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  you and I we know each other's personal stories and we know that that is true of our lives and
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  it's true as I talk to other people particularly those who have gone on to do great things for God
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  that the more you want to serve him the more refining there will be and with that comes we know
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  the refiners fire so again if we were in control of all aspects of our life I think that
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  we would hand out more blessings than battles but the reality is that like a soldier and I
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  reference this in an article that I wrote a couple of years ago when I was going through that
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  intense amount of heaviness and suffering after my spinal surgeries the fact that's a Christian
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  without affliction is about as good as a soldier just on parade the soldier doesn't just
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  attend parade every morning eventually he has to go out to the battlefield and I think that
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  sometimes in Christianity and particularly in this seek a sensitive world where we like to
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  think that we can sail through without the conflict without the heaviness without the striving
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  it's completely foreign to the biblical narrative and what God is trying to do in our life so
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  I think if we look at it from that point of view and of course the Apostle Paul was very good at
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  bringing in imagery both militarily and from athletics that this Christian life does involve a lot
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  of striving and like the soldier or like the athlete it's going to involve arduous effort it's going
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  to involve determination and discipline and it's going to involve some times of difficulties as
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  well and I think that sometimes we get into the habit of seeing no value in suffering but the
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  reality is that God sees great value in it because if you look at it from a shepherding point of view
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  there's an old saying amongst shepherds that the broken sheep stays closest to the shepherd
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  and so I think God knows us and he knows sometimes the propensity of humankind and particularly
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  Christians to wander and so sometimes he needs to put us flat on our back so that we'll look up
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  and that we might keep in mind that principle that as a broken sheep and we know that the Bible when
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  it talks about us as sheep it's not a compliment it's telling us what our true nature is and the
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  propensity for us sometimes to wander from the shepherd and so when we have that heaviness and we have
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  that suffering as Charles Bergen used to say I learned to kiss the waves that throw me against the
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  rock and it's another way of saying that the broken sheep stays closest to the shepherd so although
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  we might not see any value sometimes in the heaviness and the striving and the suffering
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  anything in Bergen's mind which casts us back against the rock of ages then ultimately that's a
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  good thing because it reminds us of our intense need for Jesus not just week by week or month by
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  month but moment by moment that walk has to be close to him I'm trying to think there's a there's a
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  hymn where it says prone to wander right is what's songs I've just just the songs going through
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  my prone to wander Lord I something anyway but when you say wander we do tend to wander and that's sad
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  but I want to talk about the Thessalonians in a minute because it's very interesting if you read
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  just the first chapter of both first and second Thessalonians about their persecution but before we do
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  that Dean you brought up something I think at least in America too many churches are just trying to
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  be positive now I'm not really yet pointing to the prosperity gospel and on all that but there's
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  way too many churches that just do not talk about what we're talking about because they want to say
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  well well God just wants to bless you God just wants you to be happy no God wants us to be holy
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  happiness depends on circumstances right holy holiness depends on our faith and our walk with the
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  Lord can you speak to that and if the church is in some churches in Australia are kind of selling
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  that you know God is good and love all the time and everything's going to be rosy if you're a
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  Christian go ahead absolutely I have a saying I call that Christian fig leaves in the sense that
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  we like to come to church we like to pretend everything's okay because we feel that we've got to
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  present a certain persona in church that everything's going well that we don't have any worries we
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  don't have any anxieties we don't have any troubles but that is a superficial and fake life so
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  what I encourage people to do is just to be real we all have heaviness we all have struggles we all
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  have moments where we trip and stumble and fall and so if we're going to bear each other's burdens
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  as the Bible commands us to do then we need to breach the confidentiality of our own life or of
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  others but be able to be real with others so that we're able to bear one another's burdens to be
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  able to pray for one another intelligently and support one another during these times because again
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  as I said the and as you said David the Bible never commands us to be happy at all as you rightly
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  pointed out it commands us to be holy and we know that during that process as I said before
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  there's going to come refining and so that refining process is oftentimes painful
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  God is chiseling away at refining some of those areas burning off that dross in our life and so
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  to walk into church and pretend everything's okay as I said it's like a fig leaf it is just
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  masking the true reality of our life and it's unhelpful because I think what it does is it suppresses
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  and masks the true extent of what might be going on in our life and so what that does is that
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  it locks out people who fundamentally care for one another from being actively involved in their
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  life to be able to help in a very meaningful way yes and we don't need to do that friends we don't
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  need to respond everything's great hey how you doing blessed yeah thank you know just be we need
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  to be real we're running out of time let's just be honest with our brothers and sisters then
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  that they might pray for you and they didn't even know what was going on in your life so we don't
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  have to be fake I know time sometimes that on a Sunday morning when you can only see a
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  people for a few minutes here and there but let's use discernment but let's be real with one
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  another come down from pastor Dean Dwyer that's the song that was going through my head and I just
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  wanted my favorites prone to wander Lord I feel it prone to leave the God I love here's my heart
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  oh take and seal it seal it for thy courts above let's come down font of every blessing sorry that
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  was gonna bug me but now let's go to first testimonies and I think this might surprise a lot of
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  people this is verse six Paul writes you also became imitators of us and of the Lord having received
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  the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit so that you became an example to
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  all the believers in Macedonia and Acacia and then the words went out from there and it's just such
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  an example that they received it in tribulation and one more thing and I'll let you a comment on
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  this Dean second testimonies chapter one therefore we ourselves this is verse four speak proudly
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  of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your
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  persecutions and afflictions that you endure this is a plain indication of God's righteous
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  judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God for which indeed you are
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  suffering and then it goes on I'd like to share something after that but I want to hear your
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  thoughts on this first because a lot of churches were in this same boat in those days they had
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  persecution there was suffering and yet they were being they were glorifying God and growing go
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  ahead Dean Amen I think sometimes we can romanticize the early church but they had as the scriptures
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  point out and probably as we'll know in the future once we're all home they would have had
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  intense trials suffering doubts tribulations the whole lot and I get a sense through the scriptures
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  that they were open and honest with one another they they had to rely on one another because of the
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  intense persecution because of what they were facing particularly under the Roman Empire so I think
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  sometimes that can really drive Christians together but I think because in this age as you
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  pointed out before David sometimes we might not see each other every day and that's probably the
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  true of the bulk of Christianity that we might only see each other once a week so unlike the
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  early church we live probably a very disconnected church life from that point of view but certainly
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  in in the church I pastor what we try to foster is just a real family feel so that people are
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  maintaining contact with each other throughout the week so that we can continue to support one another
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  and not feel that people are just trying to live a Christian life the other six days a week without
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  any real and meaningful support in their life so again I think it just comes back to the fact that
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  we we have to understand from the biblical lens that suffering is a part of this age it's not
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  going to be forever it will come to pass but when you're talking about the the hymn before come
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  now found I was reminded as well of an old another old hymn and when you look at the stories of some
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  of the old hymns the circumstances by which God inspired them to write them yes very rarely were
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  they written in comfort they were written in intense suffering and one of the most precious ones
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  has been to the church for many years now is precious Lord take my hand and door behind that is
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  from Thomas Dorsey who had lost his wife and child as she was passing through childbirth and he
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  was a great gospel writer but after that event his wife and child had passed away he was ready to
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  give it all up he said he didn't want to serve God anymore I don't want to write songs anymore but
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  he was at the insistence of a friend and here is where David it's so important for other
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  Christians to come alongside somebody who's suffering because at the insistence of a friend
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  he was driven to go back to the piano and he wrote those words for that hymn precious Lord
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  take my hand and you know that has been become a hymn that is so precious to the body of Christ
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  throughout the world because you know it it openly talks about the fact that you know I'm tired
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  I am weak I am worn but we know it's the Lord that can lead us through these times and on to
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  much better days at which which will come I think if I'm not mistaken I recently in the last
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  couple years I saw a movie about that very thing I don't remember what it was called but it was
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  just really amazing it showed that but I want to go back and finish up with these thoughts I think
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  we might get some comfort from God's love and justice and judgment if we finish reading that
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  that passage in context from 1st or 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1 and we've just got a couple minutes
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  left with Pastor Dean but we're going to do another episode with him another podcast it says for
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  after all this is right after he talks about the suffering that they're enduring in the persecution
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  it says after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you
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  and to give relief to those to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be
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  revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those
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  who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus these will pay the
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  penalty of eternal eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of
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  his power when he comes to be glorified in his saints and to be marveled at among those who
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  have believed that's some astounding words there but not only that we will receive comfort
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  and God will repay with affliction those who afflicted that's just like wow that there's a lot of
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  there's just a lot in those passages your thoughts Dean absolutely and you know we can be
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  assured that God sees it all he knows it all he's emissient and so we know that biblically we're
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  not to seek vengeance particularly when that people do us wrong in this life and it's going to happen
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  we know that it comes through persecution and in this age we are persecuted on all sides through
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  governments and through other NGOs and other organizations but God is a holy God he's a righteous
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  God and as the scripture say he's the judge of all the earth and unlike the corrupt judges of our
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  existing age he cannot be bright he cannot be corrupted he will judge in perfect righteousness
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  and holiness so we can be assured that even though we suffer and suffer most often at the hands of
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  wicked men God will judge it and he will judge it far better than anyone can judge it through a
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  court of law in this age so we can be assured and comforted by that as well that not only is our
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  future life in eternity going to be more marvelous than we can imagine but we know that he's
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  going to judge the wicked and he'll do that with a great degree of righteousness and equity and
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  justice so Dean your your final thoughts in the last minute and a half here maybe let's let's go
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  back and just just for you to share to encourage people who really are having a hard time based on
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  what they've been taught and told they're having a hard time hearing about us having a conversation
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  about the trials and the sufferings and hardships of a Christian life not everybody goes to the same
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  things or the same intensity of things but I think the Bible is pretty clear about you know people
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  that suffer go ahead and share your final thoughts of encouragement well we'll go back to the
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  sheep analogy and if you're familiar with the term cast in shepherding terms it means a sheep that
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  is flat on its back so usually because its fleece has become wet it shifts at center of gravity
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  this topples the sheep over and it's flat on its back and the sheep has no ability to write itself
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  and so this is where we get the terminology cast and if you then go to this arms and what a
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  David say he said why are you cast down on my soul why are you disquieted within me and so with
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  the sheep in the natural world because they had no hope of writing themselves they had to rely on
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  the shepherd to come along and put them back on their feet and so what does David say in that
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  Psalm he says hope in God and so for anyone that's listening or watching right now if you feel that
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  you're in that position you've been cast on to your back you feel that you can't get up again
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  then follow the pattern of David and the and the pattern of the sheep in the natural world
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  look to the shepherd and he will pick you up again what's it what a comforting thought
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  here's our shepherd we lack nothing and what a great Psalm 23 of course brother thank you so much
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  we're going to have another podcast with you appreciate your time God bless your ministry thank
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  you then thank you thanks friends God bless you and as always keep speaking the truth about things
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  that matter see you next time