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Casey Tygrett on Why Remembering Matters · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
0:10
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:13
21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
0:36
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Casey Tigret to
0:49
the program. Casey is a pastor and
0:52
spiritual director who has lived in the spiritual
0:55
formation conversation for the last two
0:57
decades. He is the author of
1:00
Becoming Curious, a Spiritual Practice of Asking
1:03
Questions, the Practice of Remembering,
1:06
Uncovering the Place of Memories in our spiritual
1:08
Life, and the Gift of
1:11
Restlessness, A, uh, Spirituality for
1:13
Unsettled Seasons. He is passionate
1:16
about the soul health of leaders and the
1:19
recovery of the transformational way of Jesus
1:22
that is spiritual formation. He,
1:25
his wife Holly and daughter Bailey live in
1:27
Chicago. A reminder, before we
1:30
start today's conversation, please take a moment to
1:33
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share
1:36
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1:39
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1:42
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1:44
laurensonatemediapro
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ah.com
1:48
with comments, questions, or ideas for
1:50
future episodes. We appreciate your
1:53
voice and how we faithfully discern the future
1:56
of the church.
2:07
>> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I
2:10
am Loren Richmond Jr and I'm pleased to be welcoming
2:13
today. Casey Tigret, thanks so
2:15
much for being here. And I, uh, think I got your name right.
2:18
Right, Tigret. Okay,
2:23
well, I really, really am looking
2:26
forward to having this conversation with you about your
2:29
book. But before we get into that, you've been on the show before,
2:32
but share just a little bit about yourself, where you come
2:35
from, where you're at today.
2:37
>> Casey Tygrett: Sure, sure. So I live in the
2:39
southwest suburbs of Chicago and have been
2:42
here for, oh, uh, gosh,
2:45
quite a while now, since 2009. So whatever that
2:48
math is. Almost 15 years.
2:51
And I' throughout my life I've been a pastor
2:54
and taught, um, in seminaries, spiritual
2:57
director, worked in a variety of different
2:59
places. And so my, my life right now
3:02
is, is there's a lot of things going on, a lot of
3:05
hats being worn, a lot of family transitions going
3:08
on. But I'm, uh, I'm actually doing some graduate work
3:11
now in clinical mental health counseling. So there's
3:14
a new chapter of my uh, life and
3:17
work that's about to open up, which is really exciting. But it's
3:19
also. Being 46 and going back to graduate
3:22
school is hard than I thought it was going to be.
3:26
Uh, I am not as spry as I,
3:28
as I used to be. But I uh, really have
3:31
always loved and
3:34
been invigorated by the discussion around
3:37
spiritual formation, spiritual
3:39
transformation, how people change, how, how they
3:42
become like Christ but more so, how they not more
3:45
so but in line with that, how they learn who they really
3:47
are, questions of identity. And
3:52
uh, story, story matters a
3:54
lot, A lot. And so that's always
3:57
been something I've been really passionate about.
4:00
>> Loren: Well, I can't wait to see what comes from that.
4:04
That's such an important
4:07
topic. Share if you would just
4:09
briefly kind uh, of about your story
4:12
of faith. What that looked like in the past, what that looks like today.
4:15
>> Casey Tygrett: Yeah, Ah, I grew up in a faith
4:18
in a family that went to church. Uh, uh, actually
4:21
our, our whole family, my grandparents, aunts,
4:24
uncles. In the town where I grew up, we all went to the same church.
4:27
We occupied the first six pews on the right
4:30
hand side. Wow. And that faith as
4:33
a kid was for the large part really
4:35
just what we did as a family tradition. You know, I didn't have
4:38
much investment in it. My parents were volunteer youth leaders.
4:42
So ministry was something that was always at the
4:44
periphery of my understanding about church.
4:47
Like oh, you couldn't, you can be a volunteer person and you can
4:50
actually do something like this. And, and uh, I
4:53
just, my, my favorite story about that is I remember as a little
4:55
kid when my parents were youth leaders walking
4:58
downstairs and just there was a person asleep on our
5:01
couch and bags of their stuff in the living
5:03
room and it was someone from our group who'd gotten kicked out of
5:06
their house and had come to stay with us. So
5:09
we uh, left that church and actually went to a different
5:12
church. Uh, my most significant
5:15
faith experiences as a young person were in the Church of
5:18
the Nazarene. And so I became a
5:21
follower of Jesus there. I learned a lot of
5:24
theology that uh, has been good and then a lot
5:27
that I've had to unlearn over the years.
5:29
Uh, through college. I uh, went to college with this
5:32
desire to go into a full time ministry.
5:35
Uh, not originally my original desire was to be a pharmacist
5:38
because I want to make a lot of money. But I was really bad at
5:41
math and science so those two things not
5:44
don't work out so well together. So ended up
5:47
going into pastoral ministry. And was
5:50
a senior pastor of some of a few
5:53
churches, a student ministry, youth pastor for a
5:55
while. And the better part, since
5:58
2009, I've really been working and focusing on
6:01
spiritual formation in the local church. So a lot of
6:04
what has happened to me is I
6:07
feel like my transformation has
6:10
mapped onto the work that I've been doing with other
6:12
people. And I think that's what happens to everyone. I
6:15
don't. I don't think I'm an exception here. I, uh, think none
6:18
of us are ever leading from this perch
6:21
or teaching or writing or speaking or
6:24
spiritual directing. If that's a verb. From this
6:27
perch, it is always like parallel tracks.
6:30
Uh, the train tracks are running side by side, and we're always
6:33
with. And even if it were not,
6:36
that's where I would want to be. I m. Would rather be
6:38
walking with people in
6:41
transparency and vulnerability as much as possible. And that's been a
6:44
big part of my faith story is, um, you
6:47
know, going through some significantly difficult times.
6:50
When I was in college, my parents divorced. And
6:53
that was, uh, after 19 years of marriage. So that was
6:56
a huge. A huge moment where
6:59
everything that I. A lot of things that I felt were really stable and
7:01
grounded went away. And,
7:04
um, that has ripples, you
7:07
know, how you view relationships, how you view
7:10
your, uh, relationship to your parents. And now in my late
7:13
40s, I have a very different relationship to them. And all that's
7:16
tied in. So you asked me about faith. All that's tied
7:19
in, uh, all of that is part of
7:21
the journey of faith. The life with
7:24
God, the life with Jesus, learning to be like
7:27
Jesus in the midst of these different
7:29
circumstances. So that's been something I've. I've really.
7:32
I've tried my best to focus on,
7:35
um, through all the things that have happened in the course of
7:38
my life.
7:39
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
7:42
What has been. Obviously you kind of mentioned
7:45
in your faith
7:48
journey, learning and unlearning some
7:51
things. I'm curious what has been a
7:54
spiritual practice that
7:56
maybe you've learned? And I don't want to say unlearned,
7:59
but does that make sense?
8:02
>> Casey Tygrett: Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh,
8:05
the tradition, the Church of the Nazarene, has a
8:08
really strong connection to the holiness tradition.
8:11
I could go into the history. We're not going to nerd out on that right now.
8:15
>> Loren: I wish we had time.
8:16
>> Casey Tygrett: One of the gifts of it is this
8:19
focus on kind of an inward experience of
8:22
God. And I have always, uh,
8:25
you know, if you look at Myers Briggs, I am an
8:27
ENFP. Enneagram. I'm an
8:29
Enneagram 4. So a lot of my natural
8:32
wiring is inward looking
8:35
and so I was naturally disposed to pick up on
8:38
that. But you know, a lot of the
8:41
focus of Christian practice in my growing up, my
8:44
especially my formative faith years, was on doing
8:47
personal devotions. And
8:50
the. I had a. And I don't know if I
8:52
made this up or if I caught it, but the
8:55
idea that if I didn't do that, bad things were going to
8:58
happen. Yeah, it was this sort of exchange. Like if
9:01
I did my devotions one morning and things went great, it was like, oh, we'll see
9:04
what happened there. And then if you didn't and things went horribly, it
9:07
was like, oh, see what happened, happened there. And it carried with it
9:10
this narrative, this image of God as kind of the
9:12
punitive ticky tack
9:15
kind of hall monitor kind of God. And
9:19
so the last few years, well, you know, part
9:21
of the change there as unlearning has been
9:25
understanding that the relationship with God is a
9:28
given.
9:31
It's the practice of intimacy.
9:34
It's celebrating. Those daily times are
9:37
not earning. They are just an outpouring
9:40
of what is already true. It's not making something more
9:43
true. It's increasing my connection,
9:46
it's deepening my relationship. So when I
9:48
get up early in the morning and I spend those
9:51
times, I do it because of what
9:54
is already true. Which also means that, um,
9:57
if I roll over and I'm not feeling it and I'm not
10:00
feeling great, and I'm wondering if even Jesus would want
10:03
to see me at that hour of the morning, I might just
10:06
go back to sleep with the safety of knowing
10:08
that, um, this is not going to make or break
10:11
today. Um, this is not going to drive me outside
10:14
of fellowship with the, uh, one in whom
10:17
I am, who. One in whom I have my
10:20
identity and my purpose.
10:23
And that's a given. So that's, that's been a big
10:25
change, uh, aside from just some of the more
10:28
hellfire and brimstone kind of theology and things like that.
10:31
But that's been a big change for me and the freedom that comes from
10:34
that is significant.
10:36
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate that.
10:40
I really appreciate that. I want to leave plenty of
10:43
time just because I have a heart cut off here for
10:46
discussion about your book, the Practice of
10:48
Remembering, uncovering the place of memories
10:51
in our spiritual life. This is a book that I read
10:54
and really found resonant in my
10:57
own life. So I wanted to just
11:00
hear more about kind of what brought the book
11:03
about, what inspired it and how, uh.
11:05
>> Casey Tygrett: It came to Be, Yeah,
11:09
uh, I love books because
11:12
as a reader, but also now as a writer, being able to
11:15
see how a book comes to be. And
11:18
it's really a collation of a person's life.
11:21
And so the book, the Practice of Remembering
11:24
in the previous edition, that was called, as I recall,
11:27
that book came from, uh, had
11:30
existed, has existed for quite some time. Like the original idea
11:33
of it has been around for a long time. And I had written
11:36
something, had promoted and
11:38
shipped it and shown it to some publishers, and nothing really came of
11:41
it. And, uh, so
11:45
I always thought the idea had some merit, but
11:48
just the form of the book at the time
11:50
before wasn't. Wasn't, uh, making any
11:53
traction. And then, uh,
11:56
after Covid,
11:58
um, actually, right before
12:01
COVID we started to think about,
12:04
um, some new things.
12:07
Uh, there were some new things for me that had come up,
12:12
and
12:14
I started thinking about the stories of people.
12:17
And so 2017, I think I'd
12:20
written this idea out early in 2014,
12:23
15, something like that, 2016,
12:27
I started thinking about some of the people that I had been meeting
12:30
with as a spiritual director. And one of the things
12:33
I noticed is that every
12:35
conversation we had eventually went back to something that
12:38
happened in the past.
12:41
And, uh, whether it was a question about faith or relationships or whatever
12:44
it was. We began to talk about stories from the
12:47
past. And then,
12:50
like I said, parallel tracks. I started looking at my own life
12:53
and then realized. I started to realize
12:56
how much of my life with God is
12:59
tied to, conditioned by, shaped by,
13:02
influenced by experiences that I had had in the
13:04
past. And that we're
13:07
still, you know, some of them 10, 15, 20 years later,
13:10
still having a significant influence, changing the way I behave, the
13:13
way I see things. And that led me to start
13:16
looking at. Because I've always loved the
13:19
intersections between disciplines that aren't always put
13:21
together. So, uh, I love the idea of
13:24
how does neuroscience really connect
13:27
with, uh, faith? And there are other people who are doing
13:30
that really, really well now. Um, but what
13:33
I wanted to see was our brain
13:35
is such a huge part of our formation. Yeah,
13:38
we don't have life with God without our brains.
13:41
And so God designed our brains to function in a certain way.
13:44
And specifically how our brains archive,
13:47
retrieve, process memories. And
13:50
if that's the case, then obviously that has to have some sort
13:53
of impact on our
13:55
formation, who we become.
14:00
>> Loren: Cutting you off, I was just to say, let's dive into that more,
14:03
because I think that's one of the key aspects, at least as
14:06
I read the book. The power of memories to
14:09
shape Our lives and give us a story. Uh, I
14:12
thought the really interesting thing I think you had in
14:15
the book about passing along trauma
14:18
in stories.
14:19
>> Casey Tygrett: Yeah, yeah, I'm,
14:22
uh. I am. First, let's just say this up front.
14:25
I'm an armchair neuroscientist at
14:27
best. But the way that I understand the
14:30
research is our brains. How our
14:33
brains archive things is that they take
14:36
experiences so through our senses
14:39
and they create a memory around
14:41
them. So our brains are
14:44
built to where something comes in through our senses.
14:47
It's then shifted to another part that it becomes a memory, which
14:50
is like a scene from a movie. And then that
14:53
memory eventually becomes a story. So not only is it
14:56
archived, but if it's retrieved enough, then it becomes a story
14:59
about the world. So the illustration I make a lot is
15:01
this. If you get bit by a dog and you have that
15:04
experience of the pain and the sound and the
15:07
adrenaline and all of that, that
15:09
memory sticks with you. It gets archived,
15:12
and it's easily retrieved because it's a really powerful
15:15
memory. And then what happens is,
15:18
uh, it goes from being a memory to being a story, which is
15:21
it becomes a way. We see the world. So we see all
15:24
dogs as enemies. And then that story
15:27
then creates a script that changes how we act. And
15:30
so we see a dog and we avoid them.
15:32
So when you talk about trauma, and
15:35
especially trauma that's passed on, trauma can
15:38
be passed on from our
15:41
parents who have this
15:43
memory that they carry that creates
15:46
a story for them that then leads them to
15:49
use a script or some other researchers
15:52
have discovered that those traumas can actually be
15:55
passed on in DNA memory.
15:58
So actually, our genetic memory can carry that through from
16:01
one generation to the next. So whether it's passed on
16:04
through demonstration or, you know, parenting or however
16:07
that works, or whether it's actually in the
16:10
proteins and the fibers of our actual
16:12
body and brain and chemical makeup,
16:15
uh, those are two ways that they can be passed forward. And of course,
16:18
once you say that, you say, if that's the case,
16:21
and God is actually an active part of our everyday
16:24
life, then how does
16:27
that reality, especially when it comes to trauma,
16:30
how does that reality interact with the God who is with us
16:33
and who is guiding us to become something that we're
16:36
not.
16:38
>> Loren: Yeah. I found this so intriguing, this
16:41
part about trauma,
16:44
especially in those negative stories being
16:47
passed down, whether through demonstration, like you say, or
16:49
DNA. I mean, I think it makes so much sense. I tend to
16:52
study family systems a lot. So generational
16:55
process is certainly, uh, an aspect of
16:58
family systems. And I think it really Makes so much sense when we think about
17:01
especially persons of color, uh,
17:04
especially in the United States, African American persons who
17:06
have that generational
17:09
trauma transmission.
17:12
And I think about it like in my own life,
17:15
my own family story kind of being aware the
17:18
importance of uh, just listening to. I'll probably mention it this
17:21
morning or I'll probably mention multiple times in this
17:23
interview. I just listening to a uh, podcast with
17:26
Steve Kuss and he's talking about being aware of your
17:30
family story for all these purposes.
17:33
So without getting too deep into
17:36
the science because we could spend a lot of time
17:39
there, I do want to talk about like what is then
17:42
the spiritual practice of remembering because we
17:45
can talk about, we can talk about science, we can talk
17:48
about brain chemistry and neurology,
17:51
DNA and demonstration.
17:55
But I find in these conversations there's really,
17:58
there tends to be this almost like des,
18:00
I can't say the word desacralizing,
18:04
where it becomes about
18:07
atoms and particles rather than like there's no room for
18:09
God. Does that make sense?
18:11
>> Casey Tygrett: It does, it does make sense. Absolutely.
18:14
And uh, the way I would say that is the way I would comment
18:17
on that is we
18:20
practice with the brain that
18:23
we have. And
18:26
so if we really are people who are shaped by the
18:29
stories that we have
18:31
experienced, then anytime we enter into
18:34
an encounter with God. When
18:37
I walked into uh, in
18:40
2012, my family, we went to
18:43
Paris, France and this was before
18:46
the um,
18:48
Notre Dame Cathedral had burned. And so we
18:51
went to an evening service
18:54
and there is this children's choir
18:57
singing in all in French. I
19:00
had no idea what they were saying, but it was just beautiful.
19:03
And so I'm sitting there just in, taking in all of this,
19:06
the sights, the smells, the sounds.
19:09
And I didn't know what they were saying, but there was this, it was one
19:12
of those moments and I think people listening have had these too, where you
19:15
don't know what's going on. You just know that you're like
19:18
staring through the scrim between heaven and earth.
19:21
>> Loren: Yeah.
19:22
>> Casey Tygrett: Like you're experiencing something divine.
19:24
>> Loren: Mhm.
19:25
>> Casey Tygrett: So I'm sitting here telling you the story
19:28
and I can, I feel that.
19:31
>> Loren: Mhm.
19:31
>> Casey Tygrett: Like I feel that sense of being in that, in
19:34
that cathedral that now is totally renovated
19:37
and not understanding any of the words, but just sensing
19:40
that God was near. And that's a memory
19:43
that created a story for me that
19:45
God can be in these places that we don't
19:48
understand. However,
19:51
if somebody else who had a background, let's say
19:54
they had an experience of abuse
19:56
within a formal, like maybe a
19:59
Roman Catholic setting, mhm. And they walked
20:02
into that same cathedral. Their
20:05
experience of God is going to be very different.
20:07
>> Loren: Yeah.
20:08
>> Casey Tygrett: So they bring whatever brain, whatever story into that
20:11
same place. So where God fits
20:14
is encountering.
20:17
And part of it is us. You know, if the book
20:20
can. Everybody's got big dreams for a
20:22
book, but if this book can accomplish
20:25
anything, I, uh, think
20:28
I would be more than content to see
20:31
people just take seriously the fact that their
20:34
memories really do matter
20:36
in their life with God. I mean, their memories matter
20:39
generally, but when it comes to a life with God
20:42
and any spiritual practices we have,
20:46
those memories really do matter. And they shape us. We're
20:48
memory made people. And
20:51
that's true reading scripture.
20:54
So when I read the scriptures and I see,
20:57
especially in the Old Testament, God beginning a discourse
21:00
going, I'm the Lord your God, who brought you out of
21:03
Egypt. That's a memory
21:06
statement. That's God asking them
21:09
to recall, to retrieve this story,
21:12
this experience. Some of them, and some of them, it's been
21:15
passed down, so they weren't there for it, but their parents passed it
21:18
down. And it's a vibrant thing. And so all of their
21:21
practices then are geared around
21:23
redemption, freedom,
21:25
liberation. All of our spiritual
21:28
practices are based around what is that story that we carry
21:31
with us. When I had this
21:34
memory, however it came of God as
21:37
the one who was very nitpicky about me keeping my morning
21:40
devotions. I carried that into them.
21:42
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:43
>> Casey Tygrett: And so when we start talking about spiritual practices that help
21:46
us process memories, we actually start with the
21:48
idea that we approach every spiritual practice with a
21:51
memory already in mind.
21:54
And then if we can meet God there with the
21:57
honesty and some, um.
22:00
Sometimes this takes therapy, sometimes it takes spiritual
22:03
direction. M. Sometimes it's uh,
22:05
just a really open, frank conversation. Sometimes
22:08
maybe it's reading this book that helps to bring
22:11
out to us, you know, a
22:14
key memory. And I find that when people read the book and when I
22:17
talk with them about it, it usually doesn't take long before
22:20
like a really key moment from
22:23
their life pops into their head. And so I like to
22:26
ask them as a practice to just
22:29
like narrate that, write it out like you
22:32
were going to cast, like you were going to film it, like a movie
22:35
scene, give it as much depth and as much
22:37
detail. What are the sounds, what are the sights or the smells
22:40
of that particular moment? And then at the end I asked
22:43
them, where was God in the middle of
22:46
that?
22:48
>> Loren: Let's talk into that because I want to get
22:51
into that. Because I think you write in the book
22:54
that to make the past irrelevant is actually
22:57
dangerous because it eliminates the past
23:00
is to eliminate stories and scripts that shape us
23:03
into the moment when we engage with God.
23:05
All memories are flush with the presence of God. So I want
23:08
to lean into this for a moment because I'm thinking,
23:11
as I've done my own kind of processing of
23:14
the past, I think of some painful memories,
23:17
uh, that have had negative
23:19
impacts or what. Right. Like
23:22
they've written a story right in my life that become
23:25
scripts. And like, for me, it's real
23:28
hard to be like, where's God? Right
23:31
in that moment. Uh, so you
23:34
write later, just a few pages later that
23:37
redemption and reintegration is better than
23:40
forgetting. Memories must be redeemed. And to
23:43
be redeemed they have to be embraced just as they are just
23:46
where they are without gloss or ceremony. Or else
23:49
they become demons emboldened to pull back
23:52
on the reins of our lives at will. So
23:55
even, even beyond myself, we know, like you
23:58
mentioned, there are people who have experienced
24:01
deep hurt and abuse in
24:04
church or other spaces.
24:06
And it
24:09
feels really, it uh, feels a lot to
24:12
say, hey, go back into that memory and
24:15
reintegrate and redeem that memory rather than
24:18
just throw it out. So talk through that if you would.
24:21
>> Casey Tygrett: Yeah, yeah.
24:23
The first thing I'll say about that is there
24:26
are some scenarios. This is where I think the
24:29
compassion of God shows up in
24:31
neuroscience. There are some memories
24:34
where we have in our brains, ah, like a trauma
24:37
trapdoor m where there are
24:40
some things that are so extremely painful that our brains
24:43
just delete them.
24:45
>> Loren: Wow. Okay.
24:46
>> Casey Tygrett: And they fall into. And this is where some work that people do
24:48
with subconscious comes uh, to play because
24:51
it doesn't go away. I mean you had that experience.
24:54
All the normal processes happened.
24:57
But your brain knows you can't function living with
25:00
this thing at the forefront. So it just sort of trapdoors
25:03
it anything. Then the book
25:06
that I would suggest people to do, I would always suggest
25:09
that they do it. They don't do it alone.
25:11
>> Loren: Mhm.
25:12
>> Casey Tygrett: This is not a book to take and go away and then go fix
25:15
your memories kind of thing by yourself. Like, there's probably
25:18
a need for some therapy. There's need for spiritual
25:20
direction or at least a really
25:23
compassionate, wise counselor who will
25:26
be with you. So that's, that's the caveat I would give to.
25:29
This is
25:31
reengaging those memories needs to be done
25:34
slowly. It uh, needs to be done with a
25:37
bit of self grace. Um,
25:39
and there has to be a lot of permission
25:43
to do what David does in the psalms which is just
25:46
gripe. What's happening
25:49
is. And this is kind of a bigger picture.
25:52
What's happening is we have a Christian culture,
25:55
and this is not putting the blame on the victims, but it's just pointing out
25:58
an absence that I think is actually harming
26:01
victims of really difficult past memories.
26:04
We have a Christian culture that has.
26:07
Doesn't learn, hasn't taught, and hasn't
26:10
been invited to explore the idea of lament.
26:13
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
26:14
>> Casey Tygrett: Um, there was some research done on, like, the major
26:17
worship songs for a few, you know, five years,
26:20
and there were like two and minor keys, you know, so.
26:23
So we're not good on teaching. We love to celebrate. There's nothing
26:26
wrong with celebrating. We've got to do that. We're called to do that.
26:29
But to teach people how to lament,
26:32
well, has got more impact than just, hey,
26:35
here's. Here's how you do lent. Well, you
26:37
know, it's more. This is how you
26:40
process. This is how you have a life with God
26:43
in which you can complain and
26:46
you can express anger,
26:48
frustration. I think part of the reason
26:51
we don't want to revisit those memories and
26:54
see if God was there is because we have no
26:57
idea what we would say. If I encountered God
27:00
in a painful moment, what in the world would I say?
27:03
Because we're afraid of getting the job response. Who do you think
27:06
you are? Yeah. Ah, but that's one story.
27:09
The rest of the time here you have these notable
27:12
figures from the scriptures and from Christian history who
27:15
are constantly going, questioning God's motives. And
27:18
where were you when this pain was happening, when this ache was
27:20
happening? So I think the ability to lament is a
27:23
big part of that. Taking it slowly,
27:26
not being alone. And then also
27:29
the part there about if we forget these things,
27:32
if we try to dismiss them, and, you know,
27:35
sometimes it's minimizing. Well, it wasn't really that bad, or
27:38
it's not as bad as other people or things like what we do
27:41
then is we actually give it way more power
27:45
because then what it gets to do is write stories and scripts
27:48
for us from sort of the
27:51
unexplored, dark
27:53
underbelly of our life. And the
27:56
deeper it gets, the stronger it gets
27:59
bringing it out into the light, even as much as that
28:02
hurts. And I say all this
28:05
as somebody who's done it, but also as, uh, somebody who's walked with
28:08
other people and done it. It takes a long time,
28:11
depending on the trauma of the moment, depending on how
28:13
painful that moment was. But what I have noticed is
28:17
the people who Bring it to the light, find their
28:19
way to live with it and learn from it
28:22
a whole lot faster than people
28:25
who don't really ever want to touch that traumatic
28:28
place. And so understanding how our memories work
28:31
help us to do that, because then we can look at. We can look
28:34
at things in reverse. We can look at habits
28:37
we have.
28:38
>> Loren: Yes.
28:39
>> Casey Tygrett: And say, where in the world does that come from? I had
28:42
a. Had an issue, if it's okay to do this. I had an issue
28:45
a few years ago where I, uh, would leave the
28:48
house and I. I would
28:51
get probably half block from my house and I would go, did
28:54
I close the garage door? Now
28:57
that's normal, you know?
28:58
>> Loren: Yeah. Right.
28:58
>> Casey Tygrett: So then I'd go back around the block and see that it was closed and I was fine.
29:01
And then I noticed as it went on, I would go back around
29:04
the block, see that it was closed, and then, um, about
29:07
the same place as I did before go,
29:10
did I close the garage door? And I think it was when
29:13
I did a full circle four times,
29:16
I was like, I think this is, this is something more.
29:19
So with the help of a counselor, I was able to go back and see that
29:22
there was some trauma that happened in my childhood, like when I
29:25
was 6, that had led me to
29:28
this. There's a long
29:31
conversation in between. Six years old, you know, me driving around the
29:34
block. But we start with those scripts. We can work our way
29:37
back and find our way with. And I believe
29:40
God through his spirit leads us.
29:42
God wants us to experience healing and freedom.
29:46
And so if this is how our brains work and this is
29:49
how, at least close. If this is somewhat how our
29:51
brains work and this is how we get freedom from this
29:54
thing, then I think God is way more on our side
29:57
in exploring this than we might imagine.
30:02
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking,
30:04
like, thinking about some of my own habits. Like, I've been
30:07
trying to be curious with myself. Like when I grab my
30:10
phone and just automatically go
30:13
to social media, I'm like, why am I doing this
30:16
type thing you write
30:19
about, uh, speaking goodness
30:22
over your memories and that being
30:24
trying to find the quote here, one of the most difficult
30:27
things. I'm trying to find the
30:30
full quote here. To see our
30:33
memories as good as not to deny their darkness, but
30:36
to see where and how Jesus
30:39
brings to light. So I want to hear more about speaking
30:42
goodness over those
30:45
memories.
30:46
>> Casey Tygrett: Yeah,
30:48
yeah. It requires us to broaden our
30:51
thinking about what is good.
30:54
Um, I think about the
30:57
Romans passage that God brings
31:00
all things to the good, works all things to the good of those
31:02
who love him and are called according to his
31:05
purpose. And that's, you
31:08
know, that's engraved on, it's scrolled on people's
31:11
walls and things like that.
31:14
But like, the real teeth of that passage
31:17
is that all things
31:20
is a big category.
31:21
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:23
>> Casey Tygrett: And so if I have moments, memories in my
31:26
past where I failed and like failed someone
31:29
I love, which I have
31:31
and have seen tears,
31:34
have seen hurt that I've caused,
31:36
relationships that I've damaged that are still
31:39
not back to or will never be back to the way that
31:42
they used to be. How do I speak goodness
31:45
over that? Um, the goodness comes
31:48
in the education
31:50
and the wisdom. There's so much of memory is
31:53
just wisdom.
31:56
It's knowing when we come around to the same place
31:59
again. What was it about that
32:01
moment that caused me to act the way that I
32:04
did that caused the fracture in this relationship? God
32:07
teach me about my response here.
32:10
I remember a situation with my daughter that I talk about in the
32:13
book. And I
32:16
learned that it was from me living
32:19
at the margins of my energy.
32:22
>> Loren: Mhm.
32:23
>> Casey Tygrett: Being over committed, saying yes to too many things in
32:25
too big of a hurry, way too focused on things that didn't
32:28
matter. And so I still, uh.
32:31
She's forgotten about the whole thing, which is hilarious. You know, I've talked to her about it
32:34
and she's like, I don't know what you're talking about. That. But I
32:37
still, when that comes to mind, I'll be just random Tuesday
32:40
thinking about this moment when my daughter was like five.
32:44
And it's like, it cuts like it just
32:47
happened. But what I can
32:50
do now is dull the blade a bit by
32:52
saying, okay, but you know, you know why that happened.
32:56
So what? Let's just make sure we don't go there
32:58
again. And I just think, I think that's the guidance of the
33:01
spirit. Let's make sure become the
33:04
kind of person who senses that about you.
33:08
Who knows when that's coming, who knows when you need to rest,
33:11
when you need to say no. So speaking
33:13
goodness has a lot to do with. What do you define as good?
33:16
I define wisdom, especially the painful kind, as
33:19
a good thing. But, uh, it's not
33:22
a sprint. That's
33:25
playing the long game with goodness.
33:30
>> Loren: Yeah. I want to make
33:33
sure we cover something else because I found it
33:36
so profound and beautiful. You
33:39
have a section in the book where you talk
33:41
about the Lord's supper
33:45
and Judas,
33:48
talking about memory. I want to try to find a quote
33:50
here. Um, page
33:53
159. When Jesus breaks the bread, he invites us to acknowledge
33:56
that both the beautiful and the broken memories
33:59
belong. When Jesus breaks the bread and lets the light
34:02
shine on the faces of those who are first to follow and
34:05
the first to abandon, we are invited into a greater drama
34:08
where our acts of brokenness or our experience
34:11
of being broken by others are
34:13
brought into sacred space.
34:16
So I'm ordained in a tradition,
34:19
and I think we kind of run in
34:21
quasi the same traditional space, like going
34:24
way back, the Stone Campbell tradition, where the
34:27
Lord's Supper is very
34:29
meaningful. And in
34:32
our Protestant tradition, there's
34:35
no sacramentalness,
34:38
so to speak, to the tradition. But I
34:41
think what I really resonated with your quote and your
34:44
exploration of that is there almost is a
34:47
sacredness in that. So
34:50
talk more about, uh, that process.
34:52
Yeah.
34:54
>> Speaker D: Hm.
34:59
>> Casey Tygrett: This is rooted in me having,
35:02
uh, my inclinations
35:05
towards communion. The Lord's Supper, Eucharist,
35:08
however you want to refer to it. From a
35:10
young age, just that has always been a very
35:13
powerful symbol.
35:17
And it's always. I have a memory of it
35:20
being even young, being particularly
35:22
moving. And I think, you
35:25
know, as I look at Stony, you mentioned Stone Campbell
35:28
tradition, restoration movement, tradition,
35:31
other traditions. There might
35:34
not be anything that Christians
35:36
practice that has a more
35:39
unifying power than
35:41
that. The words you say,
35:44
how you go do it. We're my, uh, church now. We have
35:47
the pre wrapped cups, things that are just almost
35:50
impossible to open and all that.
35:52
>> Loren: At least quietly, right?
35:53
>> Casey Tygrett: Yeah. At least now we give people time to do it. Like, hey, it's
35:56
the beginning of service. Start trying to unwrap that thing.
35:59
Um, but in all of that, it's.
36:02
It comes down to these very basic elements.
36:05
And I couple that with. I've always had a love for Henry
36:08
Nouwen and the way Henri Nouwen
36:11
brings the concepts of the
36:13
Eucharist, the idea of being taken,
36:16
blessed, broken and given
36:19
as identity markers for humanity.
36:23
So we are, you know, Jesus takes the bread, all of us
36:26
are taken. We're taken out of a world that wants
36:29
to see death and destruction, and we're brought into
36:31
life. We're blessed. We're called good. We're not
36:34
just tolerated, but we're blessed. And then we're
36:37
broken by just natural circumstances. But
36:40
the imagery there is that unless the bread is
36:43
broken, there's not enough to go around.
36:47
Each of the disciples gets a piece because the bread has been
36:50
broken. And then it's only
36:53
because of brokenness, because of all those pieces that we
36:56
can be given to the world for the sake of compassionate
36:59
ministry and things like that. And so when I think about
37:02
that idea, idea of the
37:05
men sitting around that table
37:08
being the first to follow and the first to
37:11
abandon. There's a unity
37:14
there, like, because we can remember moments when we
37:17
followed, we can remember moments when we abandoned.
37:20
And all of that gets channeled into this moment
37:23
where the most
37:26
exquisite point of love becomes our
37:28
focus. And that memory begins to
37:31
override all the other ones.
37:34
The sacrificial love of Christ is this
37:37
unifying power. And it brings all of our
37:40
memories and stories and scripts and junk, and
37:43
it just brings it to that one particular moment. And it
37:45
helps us learn who we are. It helps us remember what we're a
37:48
part of. But ultimately it tells us
37:51
that love will win,
37:54
Babylon will fall, and love will win.
37:57
And that is what happens for every broken,
38:00
maligned, traumatized
38:03
person, uh, in creation.
38:06
And so that imagery is just so powerful for me.
38:09
And the taste.
38:11
Neuroscientists tell us that taste and smell. Smell is
38:14
an automatic long term memory
38:17
which fascinates me. Like, you don't get to,
38:19
like, you don't forget smells
38:22
ever. Good, bad and otherwise.
38:25
But like the smell of bread and wine, the taste of
38:28
it, it just archives itself. And we can go
38:31
back to that moment over and over and over again to remember
38:34
who we are, to remember that love wins, to remember that we're a part
38:37
of something bigger than ourselves.
38:40
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking of, uh, smells good
38:43
and bad. I want to shift
38:46
this. I, uh, want to shift this
38:49
particular. As this is a podcast
38:52
that really tries to focus on equipping pastors
38:55
and church leaders. I'm thinking again to
38:57
the episode I listened to this morning with Steve Kuss, and he was
39:00
mentioning how it's so easy to
39:02
get triggered back into our eight year old self.
39:06
And I'm thinking of another guest
39:08
I've had on Kinsie, uh, Tate, who's a
39:11
therapist who works with pastors. And she's talked
39:14
about how easy it is to find ourselves
39:18
kind of triggered to where that
39:20
congregant is really reminding us of
39:23
our dad, who yelled at us again and again with a kid,
39:26
as a kid.
39:29
What advice do you have? What recommendations? I, um, mean beyond just
39:32
the real practical, like do the work, see a
39:34
counselor, uh, for a pastor,
39:37
church leader who is dealing with some painful
39:40
memories and someone is really
39:42
reminding them of a tough
39:45
figure from their past.
39:48
>> Casey Tygrett: Well, you did hit the biggest part of it. The
39:51
biggest part of it is just the acknowledgement,
39:54
um, the acknowledgement and the
39:57
embrace. And this comes
39:59
from go see Kenzie Tate or do the work that
40:02
you need to do. See a spiritual director who. You need another person in
40:05
your life who just reminds you, who knows these
40:08
stories that are true about you. And it just reminds you that your responses,
40:11
that's where they're coming from.
40:14
Um, and that takes
40:16
time. That takes will.
40:20
And I think for
40:22
pastors to believe
40:26
deep in their bones that
40:29
their wellness is as much
40:32
a part of the success of their ministry as the next
40:34
conference they go to, as their secondary degree, as their time of
40:37
preparation, we're getting better at
40:40
that. I think, overall, the church is getting
40:43
better at that. Understanding that soul health and
40:46
soul flourishing is actually what matters
40:48
most. That if a pastor's soul
40:51
is in trouble, then the people they lead are in trouble as
40:54
well in the long run.
40:57
So I think taking that seriously is part of it.
41:00
I also think having a prayer or
41:03
affirmation where we just return to what our
41:05
identity really is, because at the core
41:08
of that question is about who are you?
41:12
Um, if you're a person who
41:15
your dad yelled at you all the time
41:18
as a kid, that fosters in
41:20
you the belief that you are always wrong.
41:24
And so you create this identity for yourself through the
41:27
memories, the stories and the scripts that I'm a person who's never right.
41:30
And so, um, trusting your own opinion, trusting
41:33
your inner authority, trusting what God is doing in you is
41:36
almost impossible. So just having
41:40
someone or having a reflection that you carry
41:42
with you that reminds you of who you are
41:46
as an alternative identity to the one you've been
41:49
given. So I think a lot about James
41:52
Brian Smith has, uh, this
41:56
wonderful meditation that he does where he talks,
41:59
and he's modified it from Dallas Willard,
42:01
which all of us in spiritual formation, and we're doing that all the
42:04
time. Um, and it goes something
42:07
like this. He says he just
42:10
reminds himself, I am one in whom Christ dwells and
42:13
delights. I live in the
42:15
unshakable kingdom of God. And
42:18
if the kingdom is never in trouble, then neither am
42:21
I. And, I mean, that's
42:24
not a whole lot to remember. Although I had to work hard to
42:27
remember that this morning.
42:30
That's what getting older does to you, like, right?
42:32
But something like that that you can access
42:36
when you feel like you're just
42:38
spinning and congregant.
42:41
A, um, one of the churches I served in.
42:44
I grew up really as a people pleaser.
42:47
That was a huge part of my personality growing up. And
42:50
I had my first congregation. There was a man who would show
42:53
up every Monday morning at the same
42:56
time. Um, he would come and sit down in my office
42:58
and tell Me everything that I had done wrong in the past
43:01
week. And so, as a people
43:03
pleaser, my goal was to try and figure out
43:06
how do I make this guy happy?
43:09
And thankfully, through my wife's having
43:12
that other person, that objective viewpoint. But also
43:14
just after sitting with God in that for a
43:17
while, I realized, this isn't Casey. This
43:20
has nothing to do with you.
43:22
>> Loren: Yeah.
43:23
>> Casey Tygrett: You know, slide you out, put a different person in here.
43:26
Yeah. This guy would be doing the exact same thing. This isn't
43:29
about you. This is about a person who's really
43:32
struggling with change
43:35
because the story that they love is going
43:38
away. The church and
43:41
the world that they live in is changing. And so just being
43:44
able in those moments to go, okay, just remember, you're one of
43:47
whom Christ dwells and delights. You live in the unshakable kingdom. If the
43:50
kingdom's never in trouble, then neither are you. And that helps
43:52
us move from step to step. That's not a fix,
43:55
but it's a sustaining piece. It helps us get
43:58
to the next session. And
44:01
if people haven't done any work with this, if pastors haven't done any work
44:04
with this before, um, it will get harder
44:07
before it gets easier. Because you have
44:10
been you for a very long time and
44:13
an unexamined you. It's sort of like
44:16
cleaning out an old forgotten garage. Like,
44:19
you got to start with the small stuff, and then you can get
44:22
to the couches and the desks that are in the back that are
44:24
decaying and moldy and all of that stuff.
44:28
>> Loren: Yeah, that's so helpful. Even those two points.
44:31
I'm reminded something, too.
44:34
Something I've learned from, uh, a gentleman named Jack Chitama
44:37
who does a lot in family systems theory is just the importance of
44:40
being compassionately curious with yourself.
44:43
M. So I'll find myself. Sometimes I'm just
44:46
pissed off, and I'm like, I've. I've been able to get
44:49
into a space of a little bit where I can be like, lauren, why are you
44:52
so upset? And I don't know if it. It doesn't,
44:55
like, necessarily, like, bring down my
44:57
frustration, but rather than just going into,
45:00
like, where I'm more angry or,
45:03
like, I'm just beating up myself for being upset, I can
45:06
just be like, okay, what's going on
45:09
here? And again, that's all hard, right?
45:12
That takes. Takes a lot. But I think
45:15
these things is, like, realizing it probably doesn't have anything
45:18
to do with you, and then having some kind of, like. Because,
45:21
like, I've been in those meetings too, right? Like, they take a lot
45:24
out of you. So can have just some little like
45:26
recharger and I think
45:29
you can. This probably goes into the brain science, but I'm thinking
45:32
some other authors I've read like having those words
45:35
even though you're not necessarily like I wouldn't necessarily be
45:37
believing those words in the moment when I'm saying them,
45:40
um, after I've just getting beat up by a congregant.
45:43
Like it, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it kind of triggers like some kind
45:46
of muscle memory right. Where you're like, after
45:49
you say your body's kind of like. Oh, I guess, I guess that is
45:52
true. Right.
45:53
>> Casey Tygrett: Yeah. And the less
45:56
rested you are mentally, physically,
46:00
emotionally, the less
46:02
likely your brain is going to be to
46:05
choose the harder response.
46:08
>> Loren: Right.
46:09
>> Casey Tygrett: You will slide back to the default response, the one that
46:12
you know best. So for me, in times of
46:14
stress I go to people pleasing.
46:17
>> Loren: Mhm.
46:17
>> Casey Tygrett: Because that's the one that's easiest. Because my brain is
46:20
like dude, we got like three. It's like your hard drive
46:23
barking at you like you can't save any more pictures. You got 4m more
46:26
percent. When we're unrested and we are,
46:29
you know, in those seasons of hurry, you only
46:32
have about 4% hard drive space. And when it, when it comes
46:35
to that, your body is so smart and so good
46:38
at surviving, it will choose the easier
46:40
response. So that's why
46:43
also being rested. I, you know, I think
46:45
one very simple thing is for people
46:48
who are in this spot, when uh,
46:51
was the last time you got like seven or eight
46:54
hours of sleep?
46:55
>> Loren: Yeah.
46:57
>> Casey Tygrett: It is much harder to critique your
47:00
memories, remember your identity, deal
47:03
with people who are forcing you back into old stories
47:06
if you're barely there.
47:08
And so a little bit of rest, literal
47:11
physical rest could go a very long way.
47:14
>> Loren: Well, let's take a break and we'll come back with some closing
47:16
questions.
47:20
All right, we're back. Well, the book is the practice of
47:23
remembering, uncovering places of memories in our
47:26
spiritual life. Highly recommend it.
47:29
Um, I mentioned this at the top. We're kind of at a hard
47:32
or I have to at least have a hard cut off. So rather than
47:35
getting into somewhat serious, somewhat silly
47:37
questions about being pope for day and such, I kind
47:40
of made this time, uh, all, all main
47:43
content, so share if you would just how people
47:46
can connect with you. Uh, I want to know like
47:49
Casey, do you have like an audio book? Because like I feel like
47:52
you reading this book could just bring down
47:55
some tension in folks lives just by
47:57
itself.
47:58
>> Casey Tygrett: Yeah, there is an audiobook version of the practice
48:01
for Memory, which is, which is wonderful.
48:04
So, um, feel free to. You can find
48:07
that on Amazon or wherever you get your books. And I
48:10
did. I was able to read it, which
48:13
doesn't always happen, but. And that was a unique
48:16
experience. But, uh, you can find that where you get your
48:19
books. If you're looking to connect with me, uh, I'm
48:21
on social media less and less these days. But
48:24
uh, at kctigarette, my full first and last name
48:27
or uh, my website, Casey, uh,
48:30
tigret.com, there's some information there. You can connect with
48:33
me that way, but those are the best ways
48:36
to go.
48:37
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for the conversation
48:40
and uh, look forward to continuing and follow your work always. Uh,
48:43
leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with
48:45
you.
48:46
>> Casey Tygrett: Thank you. Appreciate the time.
48:55
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
48:58
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
49:01
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
49:04
questions, comments and ideas for future
49:06
episodes. Visit our website@uh,
49:09
future-christian.com and find the connect with us
49:12
form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha
49:15
or Loren. But before you go, do us a
49:18
favor. Subscribe to the pod to leave a review.
49:21
It really helps us get this out to more people.
49:23
Thanks and go in peace.
49:26
>> Speaker D: Sh
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mhm.
1:35:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome M to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
1:35:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Casey Tigret to the
1:35:50
program. Casey is a pastor and
1:35:53
spiritual director who has lived in the Spiritual
1:35:55
Formation conversation for the last two
1:35:58
decades. He is the author of
1:36:01
Becoming Curious, a Spiritual Practice of Asking
1:36:04
Questions, the Practice of Remembering,
1:36:06
Uncovering the Place of Memories in Our Spiritual
1:36:09
Life, and the Gift of
1:36:11
Restlessness, A Spirituality for
1:36:14
Unsettled Seasons. He is passionate
1:36:17
about the soul health of leaders and the
1:36:20
recovery of the transformational way of Jesus
1:36:23
that is spiritual formation. He,
1:36:25
his wife Holly and daughter Bailey live in
1:36:28
Chicago. A reminder before we
1:36:31
start today's conversation, please take a moment to
1:36:33
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share
1:36:36
Future Christian with a friend. Connect
1:36:39
with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
1:36:42
Instagram. Shoot us an email
1:36:44
@uh
1:36:46
laurensonatemediaprouh.com with comments,
1:36:49
questions or ideas for future
1:36:51
episodes. We appreciate your voice
1:36:54
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
1:36:57
church.