Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 116: How To Piss Off Jesus

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Ep. 116: How To Piss Off Jesus · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word. And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Hello, world. Welcome to the podcast of a nation. We're the podcast of a nation? Today, the day that we're recording this is the July 4.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Happy happy semi quincentennial to Those of you who celebrate. Here's the thing. Here's my idea. Mhmm. We went and saw a parade today.
• 0:56
  We did. And I thought maybe next time we have a parade, did you know you can just sign up to be in the parade? And I would like Alyssa and I to have a big float with maybe a balloon made microphone or something. And we can record a live podcast as we're in this parade. I think that's a great idea.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm not sure that the town in which we live would appreciate that like a whole ton.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: I think they would love it. Local celebrities.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Ah, yes. And that is what we are, really. Alistair and Brian. I have very mixed feelings about today. Yeah.
• 1:37
  Because I've never been the most patriotic person in the world anyway, but you want to be proud of of the space that you inhabit. Right? And I'm not. I don't know if you've all really noticed that yet, but I'm distinctly not proud of where we're at as a country. And so there's the part of me that wants to be proud of of the people that I see protesting, of every time I drive past the post office, and there's people with signs like
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: No kings.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I wanna be proud of of that and those people because there are still incredible people throughout our country, but also throughout the world that are standing up to the crap going on. But then on the flip side, I'm not proud of what's happening in politics. I'm not proud of what's coming out of Washington. So it's hard.
• 2:32
  It's a it's
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: a weird day. It's hard because we're kinda surrounded by people that have done good work for our country
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: And have sacrificed their lives, literally and not literally. Maybe their physical life or maybe just their day to day life doing good work for our country.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: And so I'm proud of that. Yeah. But you're right. The higher up people, not so proud of. Mhmm.
• 3:02
  The the sadducees of our day.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: That's great. Look at us and our transitions.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We're just getting right into it. Because if I'm being a 100% honest with you people, we need to get this episode recorded before fireworks start.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's true. And it is getting late.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: We're getting to that time. So
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: today, we're talking about, as you'll see by the title, how to
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: piss off Jesus. How to piss Jesus right off. And
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: it's not as difficult as you'd think, but it's also harder than you'd think in a way.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: I remember one of the first things that happened after we started this podcast, we heard a quote from a pastor who was like, I can't worship a hippie Jesus. It's it's a Mark Driscoll quote. Yeah. Mark Driscoll. And he says he goes on and on about how, like, Jesus was this warrior.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: And while I don't think he was a political warrior, like Mark Driscoll wants him to be, he did get angry. Mhmm. He's very much a 100% human. And he lived every aspect of the human experience.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. And anger is, I don't know about for you, but for me,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: a big part of that. Inside out, your little emotion who's leading your life is anger.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's quite possible.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: And mine is
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Mine might be anxiety, if I'm being fully honest.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Maybe she's she's running the show.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: She's a strong one.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Followed closely by anger.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: But today, we're gonna start with talking about the religious leaders that Jesus got mad at. And I'm sure you guys have unlike many of the episodes that we record, I'm sure you guys have heard of this topic kind of a lot. Mhmm. Because this one does get preached on, and that's the pharisees. And we'll also talk about the sadducees, and we'll also talk about some other things.
• 4:59
  But we've been hearing about the pharisees since, like, junior church. As a little bitty kid. Mhmm.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: When you grow up in Sunday school, you hear about the pharisees. And they're very much depicted as just the bible villains. Mhmm. The one note, they're all wrong kind of people. But when you dig into it a little bit more, they weren't despised.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: They were popular people.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. That was the really interesting thing as we were doing research for this is that the people liked the Pharisees. They they would have walked through the streets and people were like, oh, did you see him over there? Oh my gosh.
• 5:38
  I can't believe he's here. You know? But basically, Brie did a lot of research on who they were and the difference between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, which you may not know.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Which I learned about in Sunday school for sure, but I remember them being like, because they're so sad, you see? Jesus actually agreed with a lot of what the Pharisees believed. Mhmm. So he believed, and so did they, in angels and spirits and synagogue focused. They hang on.
• 6:12
  I'm ready for it. Hang on. Hang right on. They believed in resurrection. They were like the Bible nerds of their day.
• 6:20
  Mhmm. So in a lot of ways, Jesus agreed with them. What Jesus didn't like was how they were living their lives. So the Sadducees were more like the religious elite people. Think like the CEOs and the politicians and the wealthy elite people.
• 6:43
  They were priestly aristocracy. They actually rejected the resurrection. They rejected the idea of angels and spirits. They accepted only the Torah as fully authoritative.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: And they really just wanted
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: stability and control. Mhmm.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: They wanted the control.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Well, what does stability say, really? Like, when you say, I want stability, it means I want the status quo because the status quo works for me.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't wanna be questioned. Mhmm. And the Pharisees didn't necessarily question it too much, but they kind of built what they call like a fence around the temple. Mhmm.
• 7:25
  So they would say the Torah says working on the Sabbath is wrong. So let's define what work is. So they added like 39 extra rules of what defined work. Mhmm. And Chad GBT said think of it like putting a fence 20 feet from a cliff.
• 7:47
  Mhmm. So that you can't even get close to that cliff. Yeah. Even though all of those extra rules aren't biblical Right. Aren't from God.
• 8:00
  They're just things that humans added, and that's what Jesus got mad at. And in a way,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: that almost makes sense. Like, when you start that thought process, you're like, okay. Maybe the average person is struggling to understand the laws in the Torah. So we're gonna study. We're gonna understand.
• 8:18
  We're gonna be the bible nerds, and we're gonna help you understand it. But that's the problem. And that's a problem we see today too, where someone says, I understand this. Therefore, I'm going to interpret it for you. Mhmm.
• 8:33
  And my interpretation may not be from God. And there it seems to
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: be like they were charismatic people. They were well liked. Like you said, you would be walking down the street, and you would say, that's someone that I want to emulate. Mhmm. And Jesus said no.
• 8:51
  Right. And this
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: is a total side note, but I wonder if that's not part of because when Jesus died and rose again, that's when the Jewish faith and the Christian faith split off. Because the Jewish faith followed the pharisees who said Jesus was not the son of God. And the Christian faith said Jesus is the son of God. And so you think at first, your brain goes, why would you follow the pharisees? Clearly, they're terrible.
• 9:28
  But they were very popular. People really liked them and respected them and knew that they knew their bible. Knew that they knew stuff from God. Mhmm.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: They were studying this all the The pharisees are different from the Sadducees. The Sadducees are set apart.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: They're like the people that the untouchables. Right? But the Pharisees are just common teachers. Mhmm. They're able to be reached by the common people.
• 9:58
  They wanna bring the Jewish faith to the everyday person.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Which is not something that as someone sitting in a sanctuary at church, that you're really understanding. Mhmm. Because you're right. Like, they were very one note Bible villains.
• 10:13
  Mhmm. They screw up everything they touch, and they're awful from moment one. Yeah. But that's not the truth. They they started off as people who just really wanted to obey god and who really wanted to help others obey God.
• 10:31
  What happened was along the line, instead of focusing on loving God, instead of focusing on loving others as was their job, they started to focus on the rules. Mhmm. And that's kind of where we come into the story. We don't see their origin story. You know, like, there's not a prequel.
• 10:53
  Pharisees, the prequel. That could be good. That wasn't a thing. We don't get that part of the story. We don't get to know really any of them on an individual basis.
• 11:03
  The way that we get to know Jesus, the way that we get to know Peter, the way that we get to know Mary. And so they just seem they just seem awful. Mhmm. Why would anyone follow them? Why would anyone want anything to do with them?
• 11:19
  How did they get into the position that they're in? But that's not how it was. And so now Jesus comes along and is fighting against very popular people. Mhmm. Which puts Jesus in a whole another light too.
• 11:31
  Yeah. Because you think he's he's arguing against the villain. Everybody's gonna be on his side. But he's arguing against some relatively beloved people.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. That's tough. That's tough. And fighting those systems that they put in place to protect their faith. It's difficult.
• 11:51
  Yeah. It just adds a whole new layer to the story once you know that.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: So moving on to more of Jesus' story Mhmm. Where we we piss off Jesus. Well, we didn't. But someone sure did. Someone did.
• 12:09
  Examples of how you can piss off Jesus. You've probably heard of Jesus flipping tables. Mhmm. But do you know exactly why he flipped those tables?
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever heard this story dived is it dived? Dove into? Dove into? Divin. Divin into.
• 12:31
  Dived into? I don't know. We're gonna use all the all the examples. I don't think that I've ever heard more than just like they were selling stuff at the temples and Jesus was pissed. And so he flipped the table over and said peace out.
• 12:43
  See you.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Bye. You'll hear this story in Matthew, Mark. I don't know if it's in Luke, probably in Luke, and John. But John is the one who gives it a little bit extra razzle dazzle. We love that for us.
• 12:58
  Yeah. So at the time, it was the time of Passover. So think Jesus has already experienced like Palm Sunday where he rides in on a donkey, and there's palms, etcetera. And they're heading towards the temple. Mhmm.
• 13:14
  Herod's temple had different courts. They were separated into six different courts. So there was the court of Gentiles, the court of women, the court of Israel, which was only Jewish men, court of priests, holy place, and holy of holies.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Did Sarah J Maas write this, the court of everything? Yes.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: The court of the priests. So Jesus is heading towards the court of the gentiles. Mhmm. Which was the only place that non Jewish people, just everyday common people, could go and worship, They had turned this court into basically a marketplace. For Passover, you had to bring an animal to sacrifice.
• 14:02
  So think like a dove, a sheep, etcetera. And it had to be approved by the religious elite, the elders, etcetera. And conveniently, not all of them were approved if they were slightly flawed or whatever. So think all these people are making a pilgrimage to the temple once a year. It's finance, like financially straining.
• 14:30
  They're bringing their animal from home that they think is going to be a good sacrifice to God. And you get to the temple and they say, just kidding. That's not worthy. Good news. We're selling some right here, pre approved.
• 14:44
  Pre blessed. Pre blessed. So they're selling the animals, but also every Jewish man who was over, I think, the age of 20 or something had to pay a temple tax. And you have people coming from all parts of the different country wherever they were. So you have lots of different currency.
• 15:05
  So they had basically a currency exchange. But the temple only approved specific kind of currency, which held the most value, which was made of silver. Anyways, they have to pay a temple tax.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: They have to go through a currency exchange. So they then are exploiting the people because they only approve of a certain kind of coin that holds the most value. It's made out of silver. They don't accept anything with Herod's face? I wanna say it's Herod's face
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: On it. But they did accept this coin casually that had like a pagan god For on the temple. So Jesus comes in and he's like, what the crap? You guys are completely exploiting the people.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: This is not okay. And he harks back to a speech that Jeremiah gave hundreds of years before on the gates of the temple, basically saying the same thing. Like, you guys are awful. And these the Jewish people would have recognized Jesus quoting Jeremiah because it would have been the same to us as if someone said, I have
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: a
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: dream. Like, Martin Luther King Jr. So Jesus, in this moment, yes, he's flipping tables. But he's also a little bit methodical about it. Because John says that he makes a whip.
• 16:28
  Mhmm. He takes time to craft a whip. Which you've gotta think
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've never made a whip. But I've gotta think that takes some work. Right?
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: You would think. And then, methodically, Jesus goes
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Can you make that sound for us again? And
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: cleanses the temple. And basically, what he's saying is, don't exploit my people.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Don't make the church into a marketplace. Right. Don't try to profit off this faith. Mhmm. Which is what they're doing
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: here. Mhmm. Well, and you can see that a lot, a lot in the church right now. I'm thinking, if you're looking for a very direct example, I would say check out churches like Joel Osteen's church. Now I've never been there, but from what I have heard, you walk in and his face is plastered everywhere.
• 17:23
  The bookstore only sells all of his books. There's, you know, branded merchandise and coffee and whatever. And so the focus really can't be on God. Mhmm. Because the focus is on, in this case, Joel Osteen.
• 17:39
  But in that case, the focus is on ritual and how do I fulfill this ritual so that all the boxes are checked the way they're supposed to be checked, and then I'm gonna I'm gonna leave.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Well, it's almost like you get to church, and they say in order to be part of this church, in order to really worship God completely,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: you
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: have to do communion. Mhmm. But in order to do communion, you have to buy our pre approved communion package.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: You can't just use what you brought if you happen to bring communion. But you have to you have to pay to play. Right. And Jesus is saying, no.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: This should not be how it is. Church shouldn't be a business. Mhmm. And in so many churches today, it's just become a business.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Well, and not even just in terms of money, but it's pay to play based on your immigration status. Mhmm. It's pay to play based on your skin color, your gender, your income level. Do you sit in the front row every Sunday? Do you volunteer in the kids ministry?
• 18:55
  Do you, like, check all the boxes? And if you don't, then, I mean, I guess we'll sort of tolerate you here, but you'll never be part of it. You will never be part of the family.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Which kind of leads us into the next section too. But basically, as long as on the outside you appear to be checking all those boxes, it's fine. Right. Even if your heart is rotten Mhmm.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: On the inside. And we know so many people like this. What could that be? It's it's amazing to me what a church will put up with from someone that hands over a lot of money. It's amazing to me.
• 19:44
  Women can come forward with allegations. Spouses can come forward and say, I've been abused. I know of a situation where a man was put in prison for having very explicit content about children on his computer, and yet the church stood behind him. Why? Because the church is a business.
• 20:08
  Because it's pay to play. Because as long as you look okay, then you're fine. Well, also, when is
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: the focus truly on God? Mhmm. Because a lot of the times when situations like that occur, they don't wanna bring it to the surface. They don't wanna recognize it because you don't want people to question the church. Mhmm.
• 20:32
  What if they think that we're bad on the inside? What if they think that what if you give someone another reason to not step foot in this church or follow Jesus? They think that that's what's gonna happen if they just have good communication. Mhmm.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: So they hide it. Yeah. That's one of the things that we one of the comments, anyway, that we get on social media a lot is, well, if you keep criticizing the church like this, no one's ever gonna come. And it's an interesting stance because I think of it like think of it like a grocery store. And I don't have this metaphor fully worked out in my head, so give me a minute.
• 21:16
  But let's say that someone comes and complains to the the manager of the grocery store, like, hey. All of your produce is rotten. It's rotten. And the manager's like, we don't talk about that, actually.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Keep that on the DL, please.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Do you think that other people are gonna walk into that store and buy the produce? No. They're gonna walk into that store and they're gonna see rotten produce. And they're gonna walk back out of the store. Other people will have the same experience.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: They're gonna walk in, eat the bad produce, and get sick.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. As opposed to if that person says to the store manager, hey, your produce is rotten. And the store manager says, you're right. We need
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: to fix that. Let's get some new frickin' produce. Yeah.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: And then they fix the situation, and the community realizes this is a good place. This is a safe place. This is a place I can go get nourishment for myself and my family because it's it's been fixed.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. And the people in power are willing to listen. Mhmm. Not just maintain their power. Right.
• 22:41
  This is a lot about a grocery store.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: I had the metaphor in my head, and I had to work it out as I went. So hopefully that made sense. I'm not entirely sure that it did.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: I think it did. No, it's true. And I've been and you've been in churches where that's the sole focus is bringing more people in so they can get more money. And that's all it ever feels like. And especially coming from Alyssa and I were very dedicated to church for a good portion of our lives.
• 23:15
  And even like, Alyssa worked for the church, we volunteered, we were there most of the time. Mhmm. And it's really frustrating when you see all of the good things that could be coming out of the church. Mhmm. All of the help that could be coming out of the church.
• 23:33
  And instead, your tithe money goes towards magazine subscriptions and special plane tickets and special meals for people who donate a lot of money to the church
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: and hello. Unless you think that that is hyperbole, that's all stuff that I facilitated while I worked at the church. It's heartbreaking. Mhmm.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Because you think, okay, I'm following God. I'm giving my tithe to the church. I'm doing what he said to do. Mhmm. But what good is coming from that?
• 24:10
  Right.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. And the particularly sad thing about this story is that, you know, I don't think that the average person knows that, like, oh, there were all these different temples. And this wasn't the temple for God's chosen people, the Israelites. This was the temple for the people they didn't think were as worthy as they were.
• 24:32
  And and we can see that throughout the whole bible. Mhmm. These were the people on the outside.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: These were the people that they wanted to exploit. Mhmm.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: And these were just the people who who had no reason to come to Jesus. And I think that's that's so important because these are the people who weren't born into this faith, but who saw something that they wanted and said, I'm gonna go towards that. And that's an incredible thing. That's an amazing choice. And they go towards it, and they're being exploited.
• 25:09
  I think of it in the sense of our the church that we went to and served at used a program called Rooted. And it's a pretty common program. Your church may use it too, so don't think I'm automatically talking about your church. But this program, it's, I don't know, like a ten week introduction to small groups is kind of the vibe. So every week, you get together with this group and talk about a different topic.
• 25:35
  So there's there's all kinds of different things. But one week, one entire week is talking about tithing. And this group is really geared towards people who are new in the church. It's supposed to be your first step. Right?
• 25:55
  And boy, oh boy, do they harp on not just giving what you can, not just giving 10%, but being radical in your giving.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Radical giver makes you top tier in the church. Mhmm.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: And I'm I am not saying that there is no reason
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: to give to the church.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: I am not saying that you shouldn't give whatever you feel God is leading you to give to the church. I'm not saying that that's not in the Bible. I understand that that's all true. What I'm saying is that we're taking the people who are new to God, and we are immediately, unlike week two, indoctrinating them to say, we want your money. And if you're
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: not gonna give that to us,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: then you're not following God.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Moving on to after the cleansing of the temple Mhmm. We're heading towards Jesus knowing that he's running out of time. Mhmm. He's in his last few days. And he has been tested and tested and tested because the Pharisees and the Sadducees and other people have been coming to him and saying, trying to test him.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: And Jesus obviously gets them at every turn.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: That was some fun sound effects.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: But he's exhausted. Yeah. And he's like, you know what? Let me talk to these freaking people. So he has maybe he didn't say freaking.
• 27:23
  So he's talking to his disciples and his followers, and that's where Matthew 20 three's speech comes in. And it's about the hypocrisy in the church. Do you wanna close the window? I don't think it's gonna change the matter. He's talking about the hypocrisy in the church.
• 27:42
  And that's something that we hear about all of the time. But keep in mind, he's speaking to his followers and his disciples in earshot of all of the religious elite. Mhmm. So he's making a statement here. And if you read Matthew 23, I think it's just so impactful.
• 28:00
  Mhmm. Even just right from the beginning. He says this is 20 three:two. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you to do.
• 28:13
  So he's saying, do what they tell you to do. Don't get yourself in trouble. Mhmm. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
• 28:31
  Mhmm. He's laying it down. He's saying, look, they are happy to give you 50,000 rules. And tell you, in order to be faithful, in order to be a good Christian, or a good Jewish person, or just get close to God. Mhmm.
• 28:51
  You have to be this way. But they're not living their lives that way. They're happy to load you up, but they don't want to be loaded up. Mhmm. He goes on to say, everything they do is done for people to see.
• 29:03
  They're showing off. Mhmm. They love that. They wanna show off. They love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats at the synagogues.
• 29:12
  They love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called rabbi by others. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher. And you are all brothers. And do not call he goes on to talk about, I am your God.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: I am the Messiah. Not them. Follow me. And then he gives seven woes. Woah.
• 29:38
  Woah. Woah to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. I love that line. Jesus was rough.
• 29:52
  He
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: did not pull any punches.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Think about that in the church today. Mhmm. Did you ever so Alyssa and I grew up going to a very conservative Baptist church. And I think about back in the day, the bus kids. Mhmm.
• 30:07
  So they would bring in bus full of kids for, you know, whose parents weren't able to take them to church. And I remember them specifically being called the bus kids.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: And how they were set apart from the kids whose parents were able to drive them back and forth to Or think about the people in your church who come in with tattoos. Mhmm. Or that look a little bit different. How often are we shutting the kingdom, the doors of the kingdom in their faces, saying, you're not worthy. Right.
• 30:43
  You're you're too different. Anybody who comes in with a rainbow bracelet. Right. And they're so obsessed, especially the Pharisees at this time, so obsessed with rules.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Think about the rules in our church today.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: That you have to follow. And if you don't follow them perfectly, your faith is on the line.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Imagine that speech too. Jesus is standing there. I I like to try and picture things as realistic, you know? And I'm imagining Jesus standing there talking to all of these people, And the pharisees are having to, like, hold each other back.
• 31:19
  Because not only is Jesus criticizing them, he's potentially taking away all of the things that they hold dear. Mhmm. Those fancy seats at the table, People calling them rabbi. All of these different things, that could go away because Jesus is saying this. The second woe.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: I'm ready. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You travel over land and sea to win a single convert. And when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. Woah.
• 31:58
  Think about that today.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Think about the mission strips.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Well, I'm thinking about the the very patriarchal Christians who are all over the Internet right now, and they are pulling in people. They are. But do you wanna know what they're pulling them toward? Hell.
• 32:18
  Well, yeah. But power. Mhmm. They're pulling them toward a power structure that says, men, you rule the world. Women and people of other races kinda suck.
• 32:30
  And so they pull them into a false religion. Mhmm. I think is almost what Jesus is saying here. Like, you're pulling them into a false faith that isn't centered around me. And it's worse than being an unbeliever because they think they're a believer.
• 32:46
  They think this
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: is how they get to heaven. Well, they're following these people who think that they know every single theological truth.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: They think they have the Bible figured out. They think they have have it going on. Yeah. Woe to you blind guides. You say if anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing.
• 33:07
  But anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath. You blind fools. Which is greater? The gold of the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say if anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing.
• 33:20
  But anyone who swears by the gifts of the altar is bound by the oath. This one goes on for a long time. He just keeps calling them blind men.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting. And a historical fact I just, I guess, I wasn't familiar with. And it shows what you value. Mhmm.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: What do you value? Power and control? Mhmm. Or do you really value a relationship with God? I'm not gonna continue to read all those woes.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: There were seven of them. It's a lot.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I highly encourage you to read this. I do like this one last one though. He goes, woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees and hypocrites. You wear like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside, but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. So what he's referencing here is in the Jewish tradition, if you touched a gravestone, you were ritualistically unclean.
• 34:15
  And we know that that's super important to them. So during the time of Passover, when a lot of other people were coming into town, they would whitewash the tombstones. Now, I'm not 100% sure if it was to create, like, a barrier
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Between you actually touching the tombstone or not, or if it was just like, hey, this is white and signaling like, don't touch this.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: But what he's saying is, you look beautiful on the outside, but on the inside, you're dead.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: And I think about that in relation to so many, so many people. They look beautiful on the outside, right? They're following all the rules. They're going to church. They're submissive to their husbands.
• 34:57
  They do their devotions every Sunday. Fantastic. You're checking all the boxes. But are you living your life like Jesus did?
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Are you living in love? Mhmm. Or are you living for rules?
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So what do we learn today? We're gonna go into another story. But from these guys, I think we learn how to piss Jesus off, is to only focus on the rules. Frankly, to follow the rules at all.
• 35:28
  Jesus very rarely followed any of these rules. He kinda did his own thing. And to focus on rules over people.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Well, in this in this time, they asked him, what is the most important of the 10 commandments? Mhmm. What's the most important? And he said, love God and love others. Mhmm.
• 35:50
  Are you living your life in a loving way? Is your church existing and living out loving others and truly loving God? And we've done episodes before where we talk about what that love looks like. But look at how Jesus defined love.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Right. And I think there for as much as we talk against the church often, there are definitely churches out there doing this.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: And that's actually been something really encouraging on social media is hearing from people that are like, no, my church is doing this. My church is doing this. It's so great to be part of that. The point is simply that this should be a rule, not an exception. Like, all churches should be out in their communities showing deep everlasting love.
• 36:38
  And yet it's surprising to hear of one that does. So in order to not piss Jesus off, break the rules and love others.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Also, I would say just as a side note, pay attention to what the people in power talk the most about. If you notice that the people who you are following are really hyper focused on things like porn and whatever, talking against that.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Often they struggle with it.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if this has any place in this episode, but I think I would say be wary. Be wary. Just I see a lot of youth pastor did this. Pastor did this on Instagram.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now going a little bit further back in Matthew, we're gonna retrace our steps for a second. This story, it's in Matthew 16, but then you can also find it in Mark and Luke as well. I'm not sure about John. But this has to do with Peter.
• 37:45
  And you may have heard where Jesus says, get behind me, Satan, to Peter. I think we actually talked about this a couple of weeks ago. And it it's interesting to hear the whole story. So this story starts with Peter actually having a really great moment with Jesus. So Jesus asks his disciples, who do you say that I am?
• 38:05
  And Peter answers, you are the Messiah, the son of the living God. Good answer. Right? Like, it's what what Family Feud where they're like, good answer. Good answer.
• 38:14
  Good answer. And Jesus is like, great job, Peter. He said, this is not human insight. This is coming from God. So that's that's a really great thing.
• 38:26
  But Peter, as we know him, is real back and forth on on life. And so basically, after, Jesus starts explaining the end to the disciples. And up to this point, they hadn't really heard it. You know, they may have have had some thoughts about what was gonna go on, but he starts to explain to them that he's gonna go to Jerusalem. He's gonna suffer.
• 38:52
  Think of this as more of a real story. He's not just saying, oh, yeah. And eventually, I will die and go to heaven.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: He's like, soon, this is what's let me tell you the itinerary.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm gonna suffer. I'm gonna be rejected. I'm gonna be killed. And then I will be raised.
• 39:09
  So he's telling them this whole story. And very understandably, this distresses them. They don't like this. It's not so good. And Peter, who is friends with Jesus remember that the disciples aren't just there.
• 39:28
  They're friends with Jesus. They've created a relationship with Jesus. They joke around with Jesus. They live their lives in community with Jesus. And so Peter goes, no.
• 39:40
  This isn't gonna happen to you. I'm not gonna let this happen to you. I've got you. Right? Which is what we would all say.
• 39:45
  Mhmm. We really criticize Peter often, and I do think he's quite impulsive. But this is a very reasonable thing for Peter to say. That's a human response.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not gonna let
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: this happen to you. I will protect you. Mhmm. If I'm gonna stand between you and harm, I will do that.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: And wouldn't we say that too? Well, I mean, hopefully. To Jesus. Mhmm. Who's someone you just said like, oh, no.
• 40:14
  You're the son of God. You're the Messiah. And he's saying, they're gonna murder me.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No. I won't let that happen. Because you're more important than me. Because I'm willing to give up my life for God.
• 40:26
  Right? Mhmm. Very reasonable. But Jesus gets pissed. And he says, get behind me, Satan.
• 40:37
  You are a stumbling block to me because you are setting your mind not on divine things, but on human things. And don't don't hear that in the calm Jesus voice. Jesus is yelling at Peter. Now that's Alyssa's interpretation. But based on the exclamation points, Jesus is mad.
• 40:57
  He's mad at Peter. And that seems like a little bit of an extreme response. Right? Peter's coming up and he's like, no. I've got you.
• 41:05
  I've got you. And Jesus screams in his face. Think spits coming out of Jesus' mouth. He's mad. Why?
• 41:12
  Why did this piss Jesus off? And part of that comes from what happened before. So Jesus has just been tempted by the actual devil. If you remember that story, Satan comes to Jesus and tries to tempt him with saying, hey, you don't have to be crucified. You don't have to
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: go through all this suffering.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: I know this is coming for you. And instead, I'll make you a king of all the earth. Instead, I'll give you power. I'll give you money. I'll give you all of these things.
• 41:39
  And I can do that. So now Jesus is standing here with his friends. And he needs support. And he needs someone to say, alright, I hear you. I'm coming alongside.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You can do this. You'll be okay.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And instead, Peter does a very human thing and says, no. And Jesus is like, well, that's just what Satan said to me. I don't need that right now. Yeah.
• 42:02
  That's not what I need right now. I'm already on the edge, Peter. Yep. Stop it. So Jesus falls off the edge and shouts at Peter, which is not I don't think either either of them are wrong in this scenario necessarily.
• 42:17
  Well, isn't it is this before or after
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: he sweat blood? I don't know, actually. So Jesus is so stressed about knowing what's coming Mhmm. That he literally sweats blood. And that's a true condition.
• 42:32
  Like, that's you can be so stressed and so anxious that you sweat Mhmm. Blood. I mean, have any of
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: you guys I'm sure many of you guys have had panic attacks in your life. Imagine being on that level but for a week. Mhmm. You know? And that's what Jesus is experiencing here.
• 42:51
  Because leading up to the crucifixion, it's not like calm, quiet, let's be peaceful. It's Satan's tempting him. Peter's pushing him over the edge. People are trying to trap him. Yes.
• 43:03
  Life is getting really rough and he can feel that. You can it's like it's like getting towards the end of a movie when you know it's coming. Mhmm. Except it's so much worse. Yeah.
• 43:14
  And so I think Jesus was just over it at this point. Mhmm. Now, interestingly, that word Satan so we're like, my gosh, he's calling Peter Satan. That's not so good. That's gotta be the worst thing Jesus can say to someone.
• 43:32
  Right? But the word Satan in Hebrew literally translates to adversary or accuser. So he may not have been necessarily saying, you are the devil. Remember, Jesus knows Satan. Jesus knew Satan when he was an angel.
• 43:49
  He knows Satan as Satan. So that would be a really, really harsh rebuke. But maybe he's not saying literal Satan. Maybe he's saying adversary. Mhmm.
• 44:03
  You are going against what I know my mission is. You are doing something that inhibits what I have to do. Mhmm. And so that's that maybe makes it a little less hateful.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: Well, that just makes this whole experience just shows how human Jesus was. He's so stressed out. And of course, you want your friend to say, don't worry. I've got you. But, like, he knows his mission is from God.
• 44:38
  Mhmm.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: He knows there there is no getting around it. Right.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: This is what he has to do. So the last thing that he wants someone to say is,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: no. Don't do it. Don't do it.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: He's like, I don't really want to. Right. Thanks.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: Now that phrase get behind me is also interesting. The the whole thing is really interesting. So most scholars don't think Jesus is just saying get away from me. He says get behind me. And that's significant because that's not a phrase that mean, how many times are you like, get behind me?
• 45:13
  No. That's not a thing unless you're in line at Disney World and somebody tries to cut. And then you say, get behind me. Satan. But most scholars think that he's actually saying, get back to where a disciple belongs.
• 45:25
  And where does a disciple belong? Behind Jesus.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: That makes sense. But also something that sounds makes sense in my millennial head is like, get behind me. I need you to back me up.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That too.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: I need you to not go against me.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: I need I need you to back me up right now. And I think both of those overlap really well. Support me from the position I need you to be in. Mhmm. Because a lot of times we do that.
• 45:58
  We we get ahead of Jesus. Right? We walk in front of him and we're like, okay, I'm gonna do this all by myself. And I'm do better than my heart. But Jesus is saying, your place is not in front of me.
• 46:12
  Your place is not to decide what I meant when I said these things. Mhmm. Your place is not to change the rules or make more rules.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: I literally am here to save you.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Your place is back there. Now, I don't often like to be told that I'm behind someone. But it's okay with Jesus. I'm good with it.
• 46:34
  And also Peter is expressing something that, like, kind of everybody would have been feeling here. This was an emotional moment. Because not only are the disciples sitting there, but don't forget that Jesus had many women as disciples too, one of whom was his
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: mom. Mhmm.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: So Jesus is standing there making this speech about suffering and death. And they're all there, and this is charged. This is a scary moment. And Jesus responds in anger towards people that love and care about him. Towards people that would have said, no, this feels like the right response.
• 47:15
  So when you feel yourself getting ahead of Jesus, even if it feels right, even if it feels like, hey, this is what I've been taught to do. This is what my church told me to do. This is what the leaders told me to do. Just like Judith's story last week. This is what the leaders said to do.
• 47:36
  Take a step back and get behind Jesus because it makes Jesus mad when you get ahead of him. And ask just from a a very basic standpoint, what did Jesus say? Mhmm. Not what did Paul say? Not what did Peter say?
• 47:52
  What did Jesus say? Because he is our gold standard. And then you'll stop pissing off Jesus is the message here.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: I think if you want to understand the character of God Mhmm. You have to understand the character of Jesus. And that means, yes, dig into your Bible. Read the Gospels. Don't start back in Genesis.
• 48:16
  Maybe start in Matthew, you know? And understand the character and personality of Jesus. And once you understand that, then you can go back through the rest of the Bible. And we talk about this a lot. Reading the Bible through that lens of Jesus.
• 48:33
  Who did he protect? What did he get mad at? And through those two things, how do I understand the rest of the Bible? Mhmm. And how do I understand my life?
• 48:45
  Like, you know, if as long as you follow those two things that God and Jesus, God and Jesus told us to do, love God and love others, you're gonna be okay.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: Next week, we're gonna talk about who gets to call themselves a Christian. What the traditional church today says qualifies you to be a Christian, and what the Bible says qualifies you to be a Christian. Mhmm.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: And it's maybe not what you'd think. Mhmm. I also think it's interesting, and we'll talk about this, about how there are some different versions of that even within the Bible. Because Jesus has one definition, and Paul actually has kind of a different definition. So we'll talk about that a little bit too and confuse ourselves and maybe you.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: And maybe I'll sing a song. Oh, really? I am a c.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Okay. So we will talk about that next week. If you have heard some fireworks in the background throughout this, I swear we really tried to hit it before they went off.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: We tried. Happy fourth of July to you that celebrate.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: Which may not even be all the people in our country.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: It might not be. Hey. Happy day. Happy day. Happy day.
• 50:02
  Follow us on socials if you
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: don't, and we will talk to you next week.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: We love you. We appreciate you. We think you smell great.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Okay. Love you. Bye.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Love you. Bye.