Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Man-Made | Karen Korellis Reuther | S8 E11
Transcript
- 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:20:02 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this May 28th issue of Future of XYZ season eight, episode 11, with my dear friend and mentor, Karen Korellis Reuther. Karen, thank you so much for being here on future of XYZ. 00:00:20:04 - 00:00:25:19 Speaker 2 Lisa, it is so good to see you and I've been so looking forward to this conversation. 00:00:25:21 - 00:00:48:18 Speaker 1 Well, you and me both, because we're talking today about a subject that is close to both of our hearts, except that you ended up doing a fellowship and studying it in depth, and now have a book coming out next month with Harper Collins called, Man-Made. And we're talking today about the future of man-made. Karen, you've been a designer for over 40 years. 00:00:48:18 - 00:01:22:15 Speaker 1 You were included in that time as the creative director or as a creative executive at both Nike and Reebok. you're a popular guest lecturer and sought after public speaker. Now on the faculty at Harvard's graduate School of Design, known as the GSD. for anyone who knows where you teach in their Masters and Design engineering program, and I'm really excited to talk about the future of man made this book, as I mentioned, and people, it's available for preorder that's coming out on May 28th. 00:01:22:15 - 00:01:38:04 Speaker 1 The book will come out on July 7th, so preorder it now. but I'm really curious just even to start, which is of course, as we always start every question, how do we define man made in the context of today's conversation? 00:01:38:06 - 00:01:56:21 Speaker 2 Lisa, we're going to define man made as how we designed a world that leaves women out and how we can make it right. So we are living in a world that is primarily designed by men for men, and that is how we're going to talk about man made today. 00:01:56:23 - 00:02:20:14 Speaker 1 Wow. and and that is not I mean, obviously, Future of XYZ now is presented by iF Design, where you're a jury chairperson, also on the board of the newly founded, iF Design academy. I'm the US managing director and global head of sustainability and impact. you you actually are the person who brought me into the organization. 00:02:20:14 - 00:02:42:10 Speaker 1 And iF is our presenter of Future of XYZ. So one might think that this is a design led conversation, but you actually wrote man made for all audiences to recognize the implicit bias in the built environment, not only obviously architecture, but everything that surrounds us. Is that is that fair to say? 00:02:42:16 - 00:03:24:20 Speaker 2 Absolutely. It's for consumers, it's for designers, and it's for leaders of organizations and businesses. So we think about it in the way of what we put on our body, what we use and what we surround our bodies with. So as an industrial designer, you know, my heart, and my head goes directly to product design. But the book also includes so many examples from public spaces and architecture, also engineering and many of the professions that, really have continued to struggle to employ enough women. 00:03:24:22 - 00:03:55:00 Speaker 1 the book subtitle. So the book is called Man Made and the subtitle is How We Designed a World that Leaves Women Out and How we can make it right exposes, it exposes, as you just said, this built world's most dangerous blind spots. And you purport in man made that man made is not a grievance. In fact, it's a blueprint that draws on research backed insights, market analysis and expertise from leading designers, engineers, economists and executives. 00:03:55:05 - 00:04:20:15 Speaker 1 That provides a compelling case that intentional design isn't just an ethical imperative, but is also a massively untapped economic opportunity. It may seem like a strange place to start this conversation, given that it is design focused, but I actually am really curious about that latter part. Karen, I want to explore the business opportunity piece of this. 00:04:20:17 - 00:04:58:16 Speaker 2 Well, think about this. So women represent half the planet, right? There are 4 billion women on the planet. And as we look to design for our experiences and our products, you know, we really have to consider their bodies, the bodies of 4 billion women. I think when you have the chance to really consider gender diversity in design so that we have women at the design table and design for gender diversity in both cases, I believe women you can bank on women. 00:04:58:18 - 00:05:29:16 Speaker 1 I love that it's the name of your forthcoming book, but it's also simply the way we humans talk about what man has made. Right. And for the people who are listening and can't see. I'm putting big air quotes around the man, what humans make and this is all the products, all the packaging, all the digital communications, the signage, the building, the kids toys, the cars, the beauty products, so much more. 00:05:29:18 - 00:05:40:01 Speaker 1 It's pretty much everything, right? I mean, this is what we at iF also talk about is design like it's pretty much everything. How did we get here that it's man made? 00:05:40:03 - 00:06:09:22 Speaker 2 Well let's think about this. So I'm going to I'm going to give you examples of three professions industrial design architecture and mechanical engineering. So in industrial design we're graduating equal numbers of men and women. But but we only represent 18% of the designers in practice in the US are industrial designers. Only 11% are leaders. in architecture, 00:06:09:22 - 00:06:45:11 Speaker 2 The number is about 25% of licensed architects are women. And in mechanical engineering it's closer to 12 or 13%. So this is where the design is happening. And I think what's what also has happened is that when you don't have enough women at the table and it's not intentional, sometimes you can forget that women exist. So as we start to design, I work on a continuum from insulting to deadly. 00:06:45:13 - 00:07:08:22 Speaker 2 So it can be insulting, like a pair of sneakers that's designed for the anatomy of a man's foot. That is a rectangle versus a woman's foot. That's a triangle. And that we often say shrink it and pink it. Right. It's a it's a saying that I have never liked, but it really does speak to the insulting aspect of it. 00:07:08:24 - 00:07:36:10 Speaker 2 We move to expensive, right? Where, you know, I was looking at, a girl's batting helmet, you know, in baseball. and the pink one was 30% more than the black and the blue one. And it wasn't because it protected her, her precious head more, which is on a different neck proportions to her head. And we could talk about all those details, but it was because it was pink, you know, uncomfortable. 00:07:36:10 - 00:08:05:24 Speaker 2 There are so many, many examples just where, you know, from from if you, if you remember, like if you look at police women, the pants they wear. Right. It's just plain uncomfortable. Also also insulting, I think in many ways, you know, dangerous is dangerous. Starts to get into pelvic fractures, right. And ACL injuries and public spaces in the way they're designed and lighting. 00:08:06:01 - 00:08:27:20 Speaker 2 And then deadly is not just what we've heard a lot about the crash test dummies recently. But Lisa it's also CPR. Right. So 14% more women die of not receiving bystander CPR than men. And it's primarily because we don't train on female mannequins, right. 00:08:27:20 - 00:08:31:07 Speaker 1 With the breasts. I mean, that's a major difference. I mean. 00:08:31:09 - 00:08:33:01 Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah, absolutely. 00:08:33:01 - 00:08:45:07 Speaker 1 And Karen, because, you know, you and I both share a very similar world of what I'd call the intersection of, you know, feminist advocacy, equity conscious capitalism, branding and design. Right? 00:08:45:09 - 00:08:47:10 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Just to name a few. 00:08:47:10 - 00:08:49:00 Speaker 1 Just just a few, you know, like. 00:08:49:04 - 00:08:51:08 Speaker 2 Of things we share. Yeah. 00:08:51:10 - 00:09:15:00 Speaker 1 You and I are both heavily engaged there. And this book of yours calls this out. And the design for women, as you just said, they shrink it and pink it. Yeah. And so the pink tax expands the default discomfort, the dangerousness. But I remember when we first started talking about it, it wasn't even a book at the idea at the time. 00:09:15:00 - 00:09:39:21 Speaker 1 It was just a thought that you were having and you talked about surgeons specifically, like female surgeons, where the scalpel is not designed for the female hand, and actually the beds that people are like having surgery on don't come to like certain levels and everything. So you had female surgeons who were having to like, wrap gloves that didn't fit around their hands, around scalpels. 00:09:39:21 - 00:09:57:19 Speaker 1 It didn't fit standing on stools to fit the ladder that like, actually didn't fit. Like, this isn't just dangerous for them or deadly for them. There are real repercussions that block females from being successful in their their met years. We say in French, but in their profession. 00:09:57:21 - 00:10:24:19 Speaker 2 Well, yes, absolutely. And you know, the I'm really happy you brought up the example of the surgeon and it really was something. And I spoke to a surgeon at Mass General and neurosurgeon very early on when I was first starting to research the topic. And I want to start the conversation, Lisa, with the fact that female surgeons have a higher success rate than male surgeons in their patient recovery. 00:10:24:21 - 00:10:52:20 Speaker 2 and so I want to start with that first. So even though right, they have so many challenges in the built world, a table that doesn't a an operating table that doesn't go low enough that a neurosurgeon has to stand on a stool for eight hours to perform brain surgery. And what she is more concerned about, you know, ultimately, is she is going to perform that surgery. 00:10:52:21 - 00:11:12:02 Speaker 2 She's done it a thousand times, but she's thinking, am I going to get, repetitive stress injuries? Am I going to need to insure myself for back injury that's going to take me out of the game sooner than it will my male counterpart? 00:11:12:04 - 00:11:35:19 Speaker 1 Wow. Karen. I mean, these crash test dummies, we just talked about our CPR dummies. I mean, for gen-xers like myself, like the 80s TV was overrun with those crash test dummies, right? And there wasn't a moment. I mean, I was aware that they were men. I was aware already as a kid. But you didn't ask a question of like, well, why are they men? 00:11:35:19 - 00:12:12:04 Speaker 1 You just were aware that they were men. And you. Yeah. You thought maybe that was a little weird, but you were like, it's a choice, right? It was a creative choice somehow. Like, we grew up with this, and it and it kind of reinforced gender discrimination as a norm before we even had language for it. But I guess my question is, is this simply the most obvious and egregious example of this kind of does gender bias design, or are there bigger or more obvious, even pieces of evidence that you came across in researching this book? 00:12:12:06 - 00:12:34:21 Speaker 2 I came across a lot a lot of examples and evidence, but I want to say those I think when when you mentioned that growing up and we're all familiar with crash test dummies, most of us, most of us are. You know, the fight for feminism was a very long fight, and it got us many, many things that got us to the right to vote. 00:12:34:21 - 00:13:03:13 Speaker 2 It got us the right to work in the professions we wanted to. Right. We're still working on equal pay, but it has made a lot of progress. What feminism, I believe did also, though, was to was to mask our differences, to put our differences in the shadows. And that's why we accepted the crash test dummies as we saw it, because we really believed and thought the language that we're all equal. 00:13:03:15 - 00:13:26:13 Speaker 2 And you know, our bodies are different, our bodies, our bodies start to differ from puberty on, and they never get closer than they were, as when we were children. So I think part of that, you know, acceptance or just getting used to it. Right. Or we're used to living in a manmade world. We haven't seen it any other way. 00:13:26:15 - 00:13:37:13 Speaker 2 You know, was because we minimize the differences in our in our bodies. Right? Our biomechanics, the way we're made, the way our bodies are designed. 00:13:37:15 - 00:13:59:19 Speaker 1 Totally true, totally true. Karen, I mean, you we started your 25 year career in the sportswear industry. You were the vice president of creative direction innovation at Reebok. we did not cross over there, but we have people in common, which is so wild and crazy to me. and you served as the global creative director at Nike for 12 years. 00:13:59:24 - 00:14:18:20 Speaker 1 So in this 25 year career in the sportswear, I'm just curious because, I mean, I have my own experience, obviously, as both a sports woman, but also as someone an executive in that industry. Also, what did you learn in those years in the sportswear industry about gender and design? 00:14:18:22 - 00:14:28:23 Speaker 2 Well, you know, I think for me I was a pre title nine, right. So you're Gen X I'm a boomer. I was a pre title nine sports loving woman. 00:14:28:23 - 00:14:32:05 Speaker 1 You have to say what title nine is for all of our international listeners. 00:14:32:05 - 00:15:09:00 Speaker 2 Yes. Title nine was the moment where it was. It became law that equal equal funding would be provided to both men and women at the collegiate level. And it was the first time that there were organized sports for women. So I was a pre title nine, who loved sports, loved cars, came from the Midwest. and you know, being able to work as a design director first and then a creative director at the largest sports brand in the world was was quite amazing. 00:15:09:02 - 00:15:35:11 Speaker 2 But you really understand that we are designing to a male normal, right? It's a male average. It's the average body of a man. And there were times your head is down and you're working at such a fast pace, you're not even sure if you're asking the right questions. Like, is this shoe the right shoe for her? Right? Is this sport the right sport for her? 00:15:35:17 - 00:16:07:05 Speaker 2 Are we protecting her body in the same way we're protecting the male body? So I think in that way, you know, I'm hoping the book is going to raise our awareness for all of this. So we ask the right questions because I believe I sat at tables and may not have had always the right questions. I also think that there just aren't enough women yet in not only the sport industry, but in many industries that that get us to the built world that we live in right now. 00:16:07:05 - 00:16:32:15 Speaker 2 And so I think that being a only in a room or being a first in the room, you know, you're often speaking as a creative, which could be a voice that's a little bit different in industry. You're speaking as a woman that is also a little bit different in the industry. Oftentimes I think it's and maybe even now, I think even now it it just stacks up. 00:16:32:17 - 00:16:55:18 Speaker 2 It just stacks up that your voice is interred at the same level. You may not have the confidence to ask the questions that you know should be asked, but I do know that we've been measuring against a male average for decades, probably close to a century, and that hasn't changed very much at all. 00:16:55:20 - 00:17:24:07 Speaker 1 Well, it's interesting. I mean, I studied political science in my undergraduate degree, and I wrote a thesis on identity politics, which people always like. What's that? And it's like, besides many things, it laddered into my career in fashion as as self-expression, the creative self-expression. What you're describing is having a different voice. Yes. But I think that there's this philosophy or a theory, if you will, in political and social philosophy that addresses implicit bias and majority bias. 00:17:24:07 - 00:17:56:09 Speaker 1 Right. And in the case of gender, it suggests largely that if you are a man, you unconsciously take for granted that seamless fit and safety and norms allow for your ease and sense of well-being. And that leaves you unaware of the ways in which these norms and experiences don't include others, meaning women and non-binary. Yeah, right. Historically strictly women. 00:17:56:11 - 00:18:16:20 Speaker 1 but of course non-binary as well. Can you provide any examples, Karen, of where this came across in the research, where it's true the results, but also maybe were some you surprised someone by pointing out their own implicit blind spot that they weren't even aware of until you had this conversation? 00:18:16:22 - 00:18:29:03 Speaker 2 You know, the the point you raised about men is, is it's absolutely true. They've never known it any other way. Right? The world has the world has always fit them. and. 00:18:29:06 - 00:18:30:13 Speaker 1 especially white men. 00:18:30:15 - 00:18:54:15 Speaker 2 Especially white men, and they've never had, a reason to question it, I think where I, where I want to make the biggest point and, and I don't know, just in a conversation, if you ask me, what is the one thing I would just say one size never fits all. And that includes and that includes other men. Right. 00:18:54:15 - 00:19:22:22 Speaker 2 So we uncovered studies that the US Air Force did following World War Two around pilots. And, a man by the name of Gilbert Daniels measured over 4300 pilots because they wanted him to find the average pilot so that they could design the cockpit around that pilot. And I think it was in 1955, Lisa, he said, there is no average. 00:19:22:24 - 00:19:24:08 Speaker 1 That's amazing. 00:19:24:10 - 00:19:47:23 Speaker 2 And so we have known this. But even as a designer, I was designing to Henry Dreyfus's The Measure of Man. Right. And I think in 1993, which may sound like a long time ago to many people, I was I was ten years into my career at that point, a little bit more. Finally the book came out, The Measure of Man and Woman. 00:19:48:00 - 00:20:14:17 Speaker 2 Right? So, you know, this knowledge has been around, but it is so you will love this. So you probably read Cass Sunstein and nudge the book nudge, you know, the idea of social norms and social facts, right? And so even if something is a fact that there is no average, there is no average. If we believe there's an average, we'll continue to design for that average. 00:20:14:17 - 00:20:48:12 Speaker 2 And I think that has been the biggest sort of aha for me, is that we've been designing to a normal that never existed. And even when we knew it didn't exist, it still felt right enough that we believed it was convenient. It's convenient. Yeah. Well, that's a that's a great way to look at it. I mean, this would be convenient now, especially after, you know, my book comes out and there's been conversations about this to believe it going forward would would be a bit irresponsible, don't you think? 00:20:48:14 - 00:21:13:12 Speaker 1 For sure. And what I one of the takeaways because your books actually I've, I was privileged to see an advance copy. One of the things that I think is really interesting is it isn't preachy at all. It's very, very research focused. It's hard to deny any of the examples you give. One of the things that you outline are the typical questions, of a design brief. 00:21:13:13 - 00:21:39:11 Speaker 1 You know, in any of us in any design related field, have written a design brief, whether that's for a product or a package or a campaign or whatever else. Right. And this typical design brief addresses, questions that are very, who's your audience? What's the purpose? And they're great questions. I love writing a design brief because when you write them well, the outcome is fantastic. 00:21:39:13 - 00:22:06:11 Speaker 1 But you argue in your book that actually we have to move away from the typical, right, and address potential blindspots, potential bias, these assumptions and the other factors that create this risk of exclusion and to your point of danger and and even death of harm, right. Potential harm not only to the the wearer, the user, but also to the end user. 00:22:06:11 - 00:22:26:02 Speaker 1 Right? In the case of a firefighter who can't hold her pants up and then get to them, you right, right. In your opinion, Karen, and now an expert opinion in this matter, is this a challenge that needs to be tackled across the entire design industry or is this like segmented and specific? 00:22:26:04 - 00:22:49:16 Speaker 2 I think it needs to be tackled across the design industry because you know, how many of us. So you've written briefs and I've received briefs as a designer. Right. And I received bad briefs. And from a bad brief comes a bad product. I think we have to really focus. And maybe, maybe you can teach this course with me. 00:22:49:17 - 00:23:17:09 Speaker 2 Maybe it's something to consider. Is writing an amazing brief, right? And how a designer can push back, the brief. Not to accept the brief, how the brief writer should be able to look at a brief. And you mentioned it very often. It's kind of a legacy, right, the legacy brief. It just sort of builds off of the brief that was written before, and that was built off the briefs that was written before. 00:23:17:09 - 00:23:40:16 Speaker 2 And every time we look in the rearview mirror for anything and that includes AI. if we're looking in into the rearview mirror, if we're looking at history, that history is male. And so we have to even question our own. So the briefs right. first thing, first thing I do is like, who's not here? Like who's not here at the table? 00:23:40:21 - 00:24:11:13 Speaker 2 As I start to write the brief and whoever is missing, get up and go find them right, and bring them to the table. Who can the brief, as you mentioned, who can it harm? Who is it leaving out right? Who might it help if we just tweak it a little bit? Right. So as you frame, as you frame the brief, I think brief writing is a should be a beautiful art in itself and something that's taught deeply. 00:24:11:19 - 00:24:14:03 Speaker 2 Can you teach deeply? 00:24:14:05 - 00:24:31:02 Speaker 1 We I think it should be taught deeply. I totally agree with this. And and we actually opened, if you can believe it. I don't even know if you know this as a jury chairperson. Last year in branding Communications, we opened a category in the iF Design award that was writing for design, and briefs were one of the things. 00:24:31:02 - 00:24:38:04 Speaker 1 Now we got zero entries because we didn't advertise it. But it's fascinating because it is actually a point of excellence unto itself. 00:24:38:05 - 00:24:39:18 Speaker 2 I didn't know that. Oh, I have to study it. 00:24:39:22 - 00:24:41:15 Speaker 1 I figured that's one of those things. 00:24:41:15 - 00:25:01:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, I and I always say that, you know, designers who I've worked with, designers who have worked for me, will come back and say, this is a terrible brief. Can we go back to the brief writer and ask them to rewrite it? And I always say, let's rewrite it first, and then go back to the brief writer and have a conversation. 00:25:01:16 - 00:25:05:04 Speaker 2 Right. It's great. Brief writing is designed to. 00:25:05:06 - 00:25:27:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. as everything is, you started to talk about going backwards. And, you know, we don't have a huge amount of time, Karen. But I love that without us trying. I think this is why you and I have always gotten along, but without us trying, we it's following a very natural rhythm. The the next question when you talk to actually is you talk about something in the book called Back casting. 00:25:27:14 - 00:25:53:03 Speaker 1 and as a longtime futurist or self-declared futurist who just last month, two episodes ago hosted The Future of Foresight, timed to the release of the fifth annual iF Design Trend report. I really appreciate this argument for back casting, which you call for when challenges are, and I'm quoting you in the book. Challenges are complex, and when present practices themselves are part of the problem. 00:25:53:05 - 00:26:18:08 Speaker 1 You say that unlike forecasting, which predicts the future based on current trends and moves forward from what's known back casting begins with envisioning a desired future and moves backward from there, step by step to determine what actions, processes, and policies are required to reach it. Do you think that in the world of man made back casting is now our only way to the future? 00:26:18:10 - 00:26:44:23 Speaker 2 Well, you know, I, I have a sense of urgency about these things, right? And when I realized that after being a designer for 40 years, my eyes were opened to the level of inequity that there was in the built world. So I do think that casting gets us there quicker and it gets us there. maybe in a way that we get there together a bit. 00:26:44:23 - 00:27:04:06 Speaker 2 Right. So I do think, you know, I, I'm hesitant to say it might be the only way, but I think if you want to supercharge and you want to get to something a little quicker, back casting is is is a really great way to do it. Let me just I'll, I'll play this out to you right back casting. 00:27:04:06 - 00:27:25:06 Speaker 2 Right name the problem. Hopefully after people read this book. Right. It's the Built World was designed around a male body. That's it. Right. Like we don't have to have the discussion anymore. Now, back casting says we're going to design for a range of human bodies, not just one type. 00:27:25:08 - 00:27:27:01 Speaker 1 It's pretty amazing. 00:27:27:03 - 00:27:55:22 Speaker 2 And then we reflate we reframe our values, right? That inclusion by design isn't an accommodation, it's a human right. And then we work back from there versus how do we get there step by step? How do I change one aspect or what is happening in the world that is going to support, you know, my argument that the world has been designed by men for men that would be forecasting, right? 00:27:55:22 - 00:28:09:23 Speaker 2 What do I see coming in the future that's going to help me build my argument? Maybe I'm a little impatient. I just want to go all the way to the end. Just say the world is built for men, that we have to change it. 00:28:10:00 - 00:28:25:13 Speaker 1 I mean, look, I think many of us feel that way, and I think there's a lot of loud voices, which probably has something to do with the friction in the world right now between classic masculine archetypes and everything that is quote unquote, feminine archetype. And not just women. Right? 00:28:25:15 - 00:28:27:05 Speaker 2 Right. 00:28:27:07 - 00:28:59:21 Speaker 1 you at Harvard have founded, an event series called inclusion but by Design, which brings together students and faculty and practitioners who share a commitment to design a world that is, quote unquote, safe, hospitable and inclusive for all. These are quote unquote dangerous words in 2026, in current, Western administrations. Yet at the same time, I've received that advance copy of Man Made. 00:28:59:21 - 00:29:15:08 Speaker 1 And you are advocating that investing in design that is crafted for women should be the new status quo. What do you think this really practically means in your impatience, Karen? 00:29:15:10 - 00:29:45:07 Speaker 2 Well, you know, I, I, I realize the challenges that we're under and I realize the challenges that we face in diversity, equity and inclusion. Where I live, where my agency as a designer is in the built world. And it is really, really difficult to challenge that. The built world has not been built for women. So it's not a philosophy, it's a measurement, right? 00:29:45:07 - 00:30:08:12 Speaker 2 Our hands are different, our neck musculature is different, our pelvic areas different. The angle between our hips to our knees, to our ankles are different. Our bodies. I'm. I just, writing an article for time about the thermostat wars. Like, when you go in and women are freezing, right? 00:30:08:14 - 00:30:10:02 Speaker 1 In the office problem. 00:30:10:06 - 00:30:35:20 Speaker 2 The office, the return to the office. And you know, that is a physical. It's not. It's a physical issue, right? Our bodies insulate heat. Men are more like furnaces. Right. So, you know, we we we experience the world differently physically. And that is a very, very difficult argument or it's very hard to push back on that. I believe. 00:30:35:22 - 00:30:37:10 Speaker 1 For sure. 00:30:37:12 - 00:30:38:18 Speaker 2 It’s not a philosophy. 00:30:38:20 - 00:30:47:15 Speaker 1 I'm going to jump to the last question, but I do want to give you a chance. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you want to touch on? 00:30:47:17 - 00:31:05:21 Speaker 2 You know, I there's one thing I do believe we can all do something about this, right? So as we've spent some time talking about what we can do as designers and on the business side, but if you're a consumer and you're noticing that the built world isn't built for you, something is wrong. Like this is a point to use. 00:31:05:21 - 00:31:29:24 Speaker 2 You know, our social media to insist, you know, to make it a point to say that this is not working. Of course, if you're a designer, you're you have the power to invent, right? You have the power to put pencil to paper and and change the outcome. And, you know, if you're a leader, you can really invest, you know, build a talent pipeline. 00:31:30:01 - 00:31:42:06 Speaker 2 Don't just build a talent pipeline. Empower, advocate and promote women. Women won't forget that women exist. And then last is to bank on women. 00:31:42:08 - 00:32:03:02 Speaker 1 I love that, I love that, so I guess I it may it may t bone perfectly. Sorry. Going back to crash test. It may t bone directly into the last question, which is always the same on every episode. Karen, what's your greatest hope for the future of man made? And let's call it 25 years. So 2050. 00:32:03:04 - 00:32:29:10 Speaker 2 So I'm going to go back first. Right? We have to study history to make history. So as the US celebrates their 250th birthday this year, I want to recall the words of Abigail Adams that she wrote to her husband shortly before the the publishing of the Declaration of Independence, and Abigail Adams said, I desire that you remember the ladies. 00:32:29:12 - 00:32:37:19 Speaker 2 and so my wish is everybody, please remember the ladies. 00:32:37:21 - 00:32:56:01 Speaker 1 that's pretty powerful. Karen Korellis Reuther, author, member of the faculty at Harvard's graduate School of Design and former creative director at both Nike and Reebok. And my dear friend and iF chairperson, thank you so much for joining us on Future of XYZ today. It's been a pleasure. 00:32:56:03 - 00:33:00:00 Speaker 2 Thank you. Lisa, this has been a wonderful conversation. 00:33:00:02 - 00:33:26:03 Speaker 1 for everyone watching, you can listen anywhere. You get your favorite podcasts, and be sure to leave us a five star review so others can find us. If you're listening and you didn't know you can watch on YouTube, please check it out. You can learn more at ifdesign.com/xyz for all links. and I would also just say go online and get man made by Karen Reuther. 00:33:26:03 - 00:33:46:01 Speaker 1 It is available from Harper business Press. And everywhere you get your favorite books. I'm not going to mention names, but there are it's it's everywhere. Your local bookstore or any of the big online retailers. So, thank you again. Thanks for listening. We will see you in two weeks time. Karen, congrats on this wonderful achievement. 00:33:46:03 - 00:33:47:24 Speaker 2 Thanks, Lisa.