Latest / Thick No More / From Performative to Practiced Inclusion | Fixing Workplace Neurodiversity with Trisha Daho

Transcript

From Performative to Practiced Inclusion | Fixing Workplace Neurodiversity with Trisha Daho · Thick No More

0:02
They said we were thin. They said we couldn't learn,
0:08
couldn't thrive, couldn't shine. But here we are, living proof.
0:18
The resilience rewrites the story.
0:21
There are no limits. There are no limits.
0:24
This is the temple where voices rise, stories connect.
0:34
Everybody, welcome back to Season 2 of Fit Men More.
0:37
This season we're going deeper and I'm going to talk more about
0:40
inclusion and what that actually looks like in the workplace
0:43
today. I'm joined by Tricia Dow.
0:46
She's the founder and CEO of Empowered, an international
0:50
people and culture strategist who spent her career helping
0:53
organisations moved from performative to practice
0:57
inclusion. Tricia's built her career as a
1:00
partner of a BIG4 accounting firm, leading diverse teams in
1:04
creating measurable and lasting change.
1:06
She's now helping firms across the US, the UK and Europe build
1:10
cultures that grow people and performance, not just profits.
1:16
Hey Tricia, thank you so much for joining us today on Thick No
1:19
more. I know your time is super
1:21
precious. So I'm I'm really honoured to
1:23
have you on. Thank you.
1:25
Well, it's my pleasure to be here.
1:27
Thank you for having me. OK, so I've decided as soon as
1:32
this was so popular in season 1 that I'm going to keep the same
1:34
question, only question in season 2.
1:37
So you fling the door open, you walk through in a theme tune.
1:41
close. What's that theme tune and why?
1:45
I would choose What a Wonderful World by Louis Armstrong.
1:50
That song so much. That has been my favorite song
1:53
since I was in high school. And I think it it is a, is a, is
1:59
a philosophy about life more than just a statement about the
2:04
world. Yeah.
2:06
So that's where we love. It it's a fantastic, the lyrics
2:10
as well. Yeah.
2:10
I think everybody should take a listen to that song once in a
2:13
while because it does remind you, you know, close your eyes
2:16
for a second and look what you've got.
2:18
It's it's a great, great song. So I mentioned in the beginning
2:25
my intro to you that you've built cultures, you know, from
2:29
BIG4 to mid market firms. What did you learn about people
2:32
power and performance? People, power and performance, I
2:38
guess. Let's talk about people first.
2:41
Yeah. People are as vastly different
2:46
as they are the same. People who are who ascend into
2:51
power have a lot of choices about how to use that power,
2:56
either for self aggrandization or for the common good, or for a
3:01
variety of other reasons. And performance.
3:05
Performance is funny because it means something different to
3:09
everyone, but performance is something that people usually
3:12
don't hold themselves accountable to, but are very
3:15
quick to hold everyone else accountable to.
3:17
So a lot of our work is focused on honestly, self reflections,
3:24
greater self-awareness. And then you know, only then can
3:28
you truly lead other people in a way that allows them and invites
3:33
them to be self aware too and for you to understand where
3:36
they're coming from. So without any self-awareness,
3:39
honestly, every single client of mine would not be successful.
3:42
It takes it takes significant self-awareness to be truly
3:46
successful in the work that we do.
3:50
Yeah, I think I mentioned to you this to you when we spoke about
3:54
the kind of people that listen to this podcast and the people
3:57
that reach out and you will find that people reach out to you.
4:00
I always encourage people to reach out to you directly after.
4:03
But we get, we get parents on because we've had, we've had
4:07
podcasts from, from individuals who've talked about, you know,
4:11
being dyslexic or ADHD, for example.
4:13
We have tech leaders on because that's, that's what I do my
4:16
day-to-day job. We get people on the that are
4:19
educators. And then we also get people that
4:22
sit in the workplace and are what I call the choir, the
4:26
hidden. They sit there and they do their
4:29
job day-to-day, but they're too scared.
4:32
They're too nervous to come forward and say to their manager
4:35
or their boss or HR or whatever it might be, Hey, listen, I'm
4:37
really struggling. I'm, I'm, I'm dyslexic or I'm
4:40
struggling to read the words or partially sighted, whatever it
4:43
might be, you know, And then they're hide as in, you know,
4:46
it's really, really easy to stick a label on someone's head
4:49
and, and expect them to do things day-to-day.
4:52
I mentioned to you a fact that I pulled out about the UK and I'm
4:57
going to, I'm actually going to read it out loud so everyone can
5:01
hear and then I'm going to take a question on at the end of it
5:04
because I'd love to get your thoughts on it.
5:06
So this is the actual fact, OK. And this was pulled.
5:11
These figures are from the the UK Gov website.
5:13
So in the UK there are fewer than 6000 employers that are
5:17
registered disability confident. That's out of 5.5 million
5:24
businesses. So if we do the maths, that's
5:27
under 1%, which I think is just ridiculous in this day and age,
5:34
bearing in mind what's out there for people to use.
5:37
So I'd love you to kind of if you're prepared to dig into that
5:42
for me. Why do you think we're stuck,
5:45
you know, in this performative rather than practice inclusion,
5:49
why aren't people prepared to embrace it and go, Oh yeah,
5:55
maybe I can help you out here. Give me your thoughts on those
5:58
figures and what you think about it.
6:01
I guess first of all, what I would say is globally, not just
6:05
in the UK but globally, there is a real lack of understanding
6:10
around what neurodivergence really means and how it can
6:15
impact the workplace, how it can.
6:17
Impact. Everything, the workplace just
6:19
being a piece of. And I guess the other big giant
6:24
gap of knowledge is what does it really take to be compliant?
6:28
Not just compliant, but confident to be disability
6:32
confident, which I think people overestimate the level of
6:36
requirement to actually give people what they need to be
6:39
successful. So there's two things going on
6:41
there. And by the way, I am, to my
6:43
knowledge, I'm not, I don't have any version of neurodivergence.
6:48
So keep it in mind as we talk. But what I understand from
6:51
talking to other people and that I've that I've worked with in
6:55
the past is that there are certain honestly tiny things
7:00
that need to be done to make life a lot more easy for them to
7:04
do their jobs well. And by the way, we should.
7:07
We should divorce ourselves from any notion that all of us don't
7:11
have requirements and supportive needs around what we need to be
7:15
our best and thrive at work, because we all do.
7:21
But with regard to why people don't move fast on this kind of
7:25
thing #1 there's great ignorance out there as to what is actually
7:29
required. What exactly is neurodivergence?
7:32
How does it show up? How do how do I address it in my
7:35
own personal life and interactions?
7:38
And then more globally and systemically across the
7:40
organization that I'm working in, there's a lack of stimulus,
7:44
lack of why is this important to us?
7:49
I'll give you another example after in the US, after George
7:54
Floyd was murdered, there was a lot more discussion around
7:57
racial bias and what code switching was at work.
8:00
Black people coming to work and feeling like they had to be
8:03
someone else show up differently in order to be accepted at work.
8:08
We got we got a whole big greater understanding around
8:13
what that looks like so we could take greater accountability for
8:16
it. But in the disability space, I
8:18
don't even think we're close to that yet.
8:20
I don't think no. And not to mention most people
8:25
don't understand, you know, the brain anyway, even the medical
8:30
community. There is that, yeah, there is
8:33
that. And it's funny you, you, you
8:35
mentioned there about like, you know, there's like how looking
8:41
at the process to become that. And OK, in the, in the UK, we've
8:44
got this, I hate it. But it's almost like a box
8:48
ticking exercise. And then when you go on, on, on
8:51
on there to look at it, it is almost like you have to tick,
8:54
tick mixes to become disability confident.
8:56
I, I, I, you just, you said something that makes me do what?
9:00
It makes me wonder if if there is a nervousness about how
9:03
complicated it perhaps is to tick those boxes.
9:07
Horrible way to describe it. Are are, are are CEOs, managers,
9:11
climbing managers? Are they, are they, are they
9:14
reluctant to do it because they think it's overly complicated?
9:18
I hope that's what it is. I hope that's been we do.
9:21
Honestly, I think if you actually sat down with CEOs in
9:25
most companies, Jay, they would, they would be finished with your
9:29
conversation and say, wow, I had no idea.
9:34
They just don't know. They're not being.
9:36
And they're, you know, my point about talking about racial bias
9:39
was companies started getting pressure from their own clients
9:45
as to making sure they were doing DEI, diversity, equity and
9:48
inclusion. So when clients come calling and
9:51
say you better get it together or you better have more diverse
9:54
teams serving us, we do what we're supposed to do.
9:58
But what is the impetus? Who is requiring that of us now
10:02
in the in the disability space? Nobody, hardly nobody.
10:06
The government could do it right.
10:08
But so far it hasn't gotten to the point where it makes any big
10:11
difference what the government requires or not.
10:14
So, you know, we have great confidence and faith in our
10:18
younger people joining the workforce now because there's so
10:21
much more open about these things than we ever were talking
10:26
about mental health and mental differences in learning and all
10:30
kinds of things now that would never have been talked about
10:32
even 10 years ago. They're more in tune, aren't
10:35
they? Younger people?
10:36
I mean, my son who's who's only 15, he's more in tune than
10:38
mental health and, and, and, and diversity and inclusion way more
10:43
than I was. Because obviously when I was 15,
10:45
it wasn't even a thing, you know?
10:48
And I agree with you. And we honestly didn't have
10:53
really the access to technology in ways that could overcome a
10:57
lot of these these challenges. You mentioned there something
11:00
about CEOs and and and young people.
11:02
I, I remember one of my biggest fears.
11:03
So I, I did AI think I mentioned this to you.
11:06
I didn't find that I, I was dyslexic until I started my
11:09
first role, right, which was with Xerox.
11:12
And one of my big things at uni and going into that graduate
11:16
role was fill in the amount of paperwork I needed to fill in.
11:19
I'm always, I always wonder now, obviously people have the
11:23
opportunity now to, to have things read out with to them.
11:27
They can have the text read out, they can get help filling things
11:30
in. But what about the CEO who reads
11:33
the CV? What's your thoughts on that
11:36
individual going well, fingers in the air here to share.
11:40
We hire the best person for the job.
11:43
What you talked about bias and what do you think they're not
11:46
seeing, you know, like within that, within that process, for
11:51
example? What I would say to you, and I'd
11:54
say this to all kinds of other people too, is you don't even
11:57
know who the best person for the job is because you haven't even
12:00
got them in front of you yet. Like you can't cast a tiny net
12:05
and decide you've got the best fish.
12:07
It doesn't work that way. We have to do a way better job.
12:12
And I haven't seen anyone do a fantastic job of this and all
12:15
the, all the years I've been working on this stuff of casting
12:20
a net, being very specific as to what we really need and what
12:24
really what, what attributes really will thrive in our
12:27
environments and communicating that to the world in a way that
12:31
everyone gets to hear the message.
12:33
Until we get to that point, we do not have meritocracies
12:36
anywhere. We do not know if we're getting
12:39
the best talent or not. We do the best we can with very,
12:44
you don't want to say primitive, but very almost rudimentary ways
12:48
of deciding how to find people and how to assess their ability
12:52
to work in our environments. And until we really dig deep and
12:57
and think way more broadly about how this applies to everybody,
13:00
we have no idea if we have the best talent.
13:04
No, and and it is, it is haven't applied.
13:09
I pop up my hand on the desk here in touch wood.
13:11
I haven't had to apply for a job for for quite a long time.
13:14
Neither have I, I mean, I, you know, I, I, I wonder if it's one
13:20
of those things you, you, you still see it on LinkedIn, you
13:23
know, submit your CV. And then I remember.
13:27
I mean, I'm going back years now, years and years and years.
13:30
Xerox made me do like an assessment to see what kind of
13:34
person I was and it was colour schemed if I remember right.
13:39
Again, that was form based as well.
13:41
So I guess it's like a psychometric test or whatever it
13:43
might have been. But we, we, we, you know, the
13:47
amount of technology that's out there, we just kind of feel like
13:51
it's one of those processes that's not really adapted to
13:54
change. Send us your CV.
13:57
You do an interview. I wonder how many.
14:00
I wonder how many good people. I wonder how many excellent
14:03
people. You mentioned the net have
14:05
slipped through the net because they've fallen at that hurdle of
14:09
the CB doesn't look great or they didn't stack up on the
14:12
psychometric test or yeah. You know.
14:15
Didn't answer. Didn't answer the right
14:17
questions at the interview, for example.
14:20
Yeah, I think we've actually gone backwards in that process.
14:23
Yeah. If you just take LinkedIn
14:26
hiring, they don't even look at your CV, they look at a form you
14:30
fill out. Yeah.
14:32
They don't even look at it. A computer decides if it's
14:36
worthy of looking at and then they look at the if.
14:41
If it gets to the point where they actually get to look at
14:44
your CV. They've already not.
14:48
They've already been exclusive. They've already knocked out
14:51
people that could have been great.
14:53
So we need to really rethink how we do that.
14:56
Does it need to be streamlined? Yes.
14:58
There's too much information being thrown at people.
15:02
It needs to be way more thoughtful.
15:04
But we can't make it more onerous and that is possible
15:07
now. So cast a broader net, make it
15:12
accessible, more accessible, have the right language around
15:16
the stuff that you do, make it more accessible in the format in
15:18
which you can come. Have the ability on your end to
15:22
assess it in a in a streamlined, methodical way.
15:25
And with regard to interviewing questions, I design interviewing
15:28
questions all the time so that they reflect the values of an
15:32
organization because they so seldom do we shortcut so much in
15:37
the interviewing process that we never really, you know, frankly,
15:40
they hire me because they make hiring mistakes, not because
15:44
they're not typically because they're, they don't think
15:47
they're getting the best talent. Let's just start there.
15:51
So we go in and we say, OK, what are your real criteria?
15:57
Is it just GPA? Is it just where you went to
16:01
school? Because if that's the case, then
16:04
you should have a perfect organization with perfect people
16:07
in it, right? There's so much more goes into
16:10
whether someone's going to be successful in your company or
16:13
not. And we are, we're just, you
16:16
know, it's it, we're just going very superficially and hoping
16:20
for the best. We we, we don't define
16:24
critically what we're actually looking for and then message
16:27
that to the world so that we draw the people we want to our
16:30
organizations. Yeah.
16:32
It, it is, it is bonkers, really, if you think about it.
16:35
All you're doing is looking at a piece of paper and what's on a
16:37
piece of paper or at a screen with some writing on that says
16:42
this is Jay. Jay went to this school.
16:44
Jay did this. Jay did that.
16:46
Yeah. You're dead right When you said
16:49
you've already excluded somebody straight away on that process
16:52
just because that didn't stack up.
16:54
While that didn't weigh up, you know, that should almost be
16:59
potentially the latter part of the process.
17:01
And I know, I know a lot of this comes down to time.
17:05
Oh, it's sitting there and speaking to someone physically,
17:08
whether it be over video, virtually or in an office.
17:11
You know, I don't, I don't really think you get to know
17:15
somebody. Someone told me something once,
17:17
and this is to do with sale has nothing to do with like an
17:20
intercept view process. But someone told me once that
17:23
you can't judge anybody in a sales process until they've been
17:26
in a job for at least six months because the first three months,
17:29
it takes three months just to float.
17:31
OK. And he was using the analogy of
17:33
a swan and their legs kicking so fast under the water, you know,
17:36
and he said to me, you can't judge anybody for six months.
17:40
And I, I wonder and you, you certainly couldn't take someone
17:44
into a job. Go, I'll tell you what, let's
17:45
bring you in for six months and see how you get on.
17:48
But you're judging somebody, like you said, on a piece of
17:52
paper or, or what's written on the screen, how they perform in
17:55
that interview. And me, yeah, I, I, I, I
17:59
mentioned to you at the beginning before we even started
18:02
recording, I have some words written down in big huge writing
18:06
to remind me if I lose track to get me back on track with the
18:10
questions. Right.
18:12
I am terrible in a test situation.
18:14
I'm terrible in in standing up to public speaking, which I have
18:18
good as part of my job in an interview situation, I I would
18:24
completely lose track of like if you said to me, tell me about
18:29
tell me about this situation, for example, I'd probably go to
18:32
pieces. So I know that you wouldn't get
18:35
the best out of me. And it's weird because I've
18:39
never really thought about it like that, but I just wonder, I
18:43
wonder how many people have gone for a job and it they would have
18:47
been absolutely, potentially perfect for it, but a tiny thing
18:51
just didn't weigh up. A tiny thing went wrong and they
18:54
just got judged or, I don't know, they got the wrong tie on
18:58
or the wrong colour shirt, for example.
19:00
It is, it is crazy. And I've never really thought
19:03
about it until you said that. It is, yeah.
19:06
Oh, there's a million things. There's a million things.
19:08
I was told my whole life I should straighten my hair
19:11
because really curly hair is not very professional.
19:14
There's so many things. It's just.
19:16
I've got one, I've got one. I remember being told first
19:20
thing people notice is your shoes.
19:22
Make sure your shoes are clean. I remember that.
19:24
I remember that statement as well.
19:26
Yeah. And if you're a woman, you
19:28
better wear makeup. You better, you know, there's a
19:30
million things. It's it's.
19:32
Scrubber deep. OK, so I've got a really,
19:37
really, really chip in the deep end here.
19:40
Let's let's, let's, let's sort of pop you into, into fixing
19:46
culture. All right, so you're dropped
19:48
into, you're dropped into a business I mentioned about how
19:54
you can't judge anyone for the first six months.
19:56
So give me, give me sort of a playbook from your inclusion.
20:01
Tell me how you know how you'd measure that.
20:03
What sort of policies and processes would you put in?
20:07
And. Let's start a talk because we've
20:11
mentioned about workplaces and we've mentioned about CEO.
20:14
So do you, do you, do you go to the leaders first and do you
20:19
coach them immediately or do you see how they stack up?
20:22
Tell me, tell me how you, how you map this out.
20:25
I'd love to. I'd love to hear your thoughts
20:27
on how you go in and and and and fix a culture, for example.
20:32
Well, I guess the first thing is what is the the willingness to
20:36
change. Like I said before, without the
20:39
ability to self reflect, it's going to be very tough and I can
20:42
assess that pretty quickly. We do assessments of culture
20:46
first. It's very hard for the old their
20:49
their own leadership to assess its culture.
20:52
So we do. So it's interrupted.
20:54
Do you ever, do you ever work away?
20:57
Just out of curiosity, do? We ever do what just mentioned.
21:01
Do you ever walk away? So if, if, if you came in just
21:04
to say I've got ABC, if I've got ABC business and you came in,
21:07
you automatically knew this guy. This guy's got no intention at
21:12
all. Would would you, would you go?
21:13
You know what? No.
21:14
We're not the right people for you.
21:16
That, absolutely. We've done that several times.
21:19
But here's the thing. Love it.
21:21
If I get any sense that they're just performative and there's no
21:25
depth to what they want to accomplish and change, then the
21:29
work is going to be futile. It's going to be difficult and
21:32
it's just going to make the I'm going to make the culture worse
21:35
by engaging because. People look.
21:38
At and say these people don't care about us at all.
21:41
This is just a joke to them. This is this is performative.
21:44
So we have turned people away. But I'll, I'll tell you, Jay,
21:49
most of the time if they're, if they're engaging with us at all
21:53
in the 1st place, it's because they really want to do the right
21:56
thing. Yeah, I guess so.
21:58
Someone would reach that if they weren't interested, right?
22:01
They aren't finding us if they don't want to do that.
22:04
No, of course, of course. Yeah.
22:08
So we assess cultures, we assess the data around.
22:13
We do cultural surveys, we do focus groups, we do
22:16
interviewing, we assess the employee life cycle and all the
22:19
data related to that. And we come back and say, we've
22:22
looked at both your quantitative and qualitative data and this is
22:26
what your people are saying is their experience.
22:29
This is how we can slice it and dice that data to see are
22:33
certain groups of people, for example, neurodivergent people
22:37
are people who at least identify themselves as neurodivergent.
22:41
Are they having a varying experience from the from the
22:44
regular, from other people in the company?
22:46
We can do that with everything else too.
22:47
Women, what office you're in, what is your experience?
22:51
How are you experiencing the company?
22:53
Once we have that data, it gets very straightforward to say
22:58
these are the things you could you should focus on 1st.
23:00
These are the focus things you need to focus on next.
23:03
Many times it is people need a ton of awareness building, a lot
23:08
of education and understanding building.
23:11
We'll engage in that. Leadership needs to be held more
23:13
accountable. We can create KPIs around
23:16
leadership and how they're accountable to what they say
23:18
they're going to do with regard to these issues.
23:20
Always hesitate to say when come companies come to us and say,
23:25
let's say they came to me and said we really want to reach out
23:29
to, you know, veterans or people who are disabled or people who
23:33
are blind or people, whatever it is and find more talent to bring
23:37
into our company. I always hesitate a little bit
23:41
with that because I believe fully that you should ready your
23:45
company for that before you do it.
23:47
Otherwise you're just going to have a revolving or people going
23:50
in and out of your company all the time.
23:52
It's more. Important to make sure that your
23:56
culture speaks to what everyone in that culture needs to be
24:02
thriving and successful in it. And that should be the focus
24:06
first before you go out and source greater levels of
24:09
diversity, no matter what that diversity looks like.
24:12
Yeah. So a lot of the stuff we do
24:14
first is OK, big time educational building.
24:19
Are we being as transparent in our communications about this as
24:22
we should? How are we fostering an
24:25
environment where no one has to be afraid to tell us what they
24:27
need help with or that they're they're struggling with
24:31
something and we can actually make things look more
24:34
accessible, easier, more supportive for them to thrive?
24:39
You in in, in cultures where you can't be honest about what you
24:44
have going on. You got a long way to go.
24:47
So let's start with how do we open those up?
24:49
How do we open those doors up? How do we create forums for
24:53
people to be honest about that stuff?
24:55
How do we create forms where people can be can voice contrary
24:59
opinions without worrying about what other anyone's it's it's, I
25:03
call it blameless problem solving.
25:05
That's actually not a terminology.
25:06
I learned it from the book I read, but I love the concept
25:09
that we are going to figure out how to solve this problem or
25:13
create this solution and blame enters the equation.
25:17
Retaliation never enters the equation.
25:19
Those are completely wasted energies.
25:22
Let's figure out what we need to do to solve the issues and make
25:25
things thrive here. Because we've thought about the
25:27
people thoughtfully and realize that everyone needs something
25:30
different from us as leaders. Do you do you do from?
25:35
From from top to bottom, are they, you mentioned the KPIs
25:40
like a measuring that do you hold them at certain points
25:44
throughout this journey that you're taking them on?
25:46
Do you hold them accountable to those?
25:48
Do you kind of go, well, hey, listen, we said we were going to
25:50
do this. We asked you to do this and you
25:52
haven't done that. And then how do you do you, do
25:56
you get them to readdress it? Do you get them to go back in
25:58
like, well, this year we said we were going to be here.
26:00
We're nowhere near at this point.
26:02
Yes, I can only push that so much.
26:04
At some point they have to internalize their own
26:06
requirements for themselves. But yes, in the beginning, a
26:09
really important part of our job is to say this is not, this is
26:13
not what you you committed to. Let's rethink that.
26:17
What is what is the hold up? What is the challenge?
26:19
And let's overcome it because this is not going where we said
26:22
it would go. Yeah.
26:25
It's, it's, it's incredible what you do.
26:27
Honestly, I think it's brilliant.
26:29
I mean, I wish, I wish, I wish, I wish you could make wave a
26:32
magic wand and, and get you into every single business like,
26:35
because it's frustrating. There's so many people, as I
26:39
said to you, there's so many people that just sit there quiet
26:42
and just get on with it. And I, I kind of wonder if you
26:46
came into some businesses and said, right, start there, let's
26:50
look at this, let's look at this.
26:52
You don't, you don't cover these people that are hiding.
26:54
And I know for a fact, and I also know for a fact that you'd
27:01
get much more out of them by giving the simplest little
27:06
alteration to, to potentially their desk or what they're doing
27:12
or the way they work. And I, I, I would love to be
27:16
able to just do a Mary Poppins and say, there you go to, That's
27:20
the whole other businesses just trying to fix the whole lot.
27:23
Because I, I think it must be, I'd love to, I'd love to see the
27:29
pitch on their face. You know, the, the, the, the
27:31
senior leaders, the senior management team, when you've
27:34
gone on that journey with them, do they, do they ever come back
27:37
to you and reflect and go, Oh my God, Christ, I can't believe
27:40
where we were on where we are now.
27:43
And this is the difference we've got from it.
27:47
They do, but I tell you it's it's a journey.
27:51
It it is years changed. Yeah, I can imagine.
27:55
I can imagine. But I can tell you the little
27:57
anecdotal things that people say to me.
28:02
Like you said, it takes blessed little to give people what they
28:07
need to really be successful. People will rise up to meet you
28:11
when you give it to them. So I'll give you a little
28:14
example from my own career. I was in a BIG4 county firm,
28:19
made partner in that firm, and my first career was transferred
28:23
to a a city in the US where my entire team that I inherited was
28:30
all younger women that were all having babies.
28:32
They were in that age range and my practice was such that we had
28:36
to travel a lot. So conundrum for me, I can't
28:42
have all these pregnant women or women who just had babies
28:45
running all over the country doing this work.
28:47
What am I going to do? So I put them together and I
28:51
said, I need you guys to be really transparent with each
28:54
other and with me about what you need for us to still thrive in
28:58
this practice, given that it's a very much a practice where we
29:01
have to travel to clients. They had before lunch, they had
29:06
figured out how to like basically take up for each other
29:12
in the time and effort it took to travel when they could and
29:16
when they couldn't. And we'll have, we'll all be
29:19
highly commutative and we'll all get it done and we'll do what we
29:22
can remotely. And literally nothing changed as
29:26
far as the success of that practice.
29:28
It was still really successful. But now all these women had
29:31
exactly what they needed to be successful.
29:33
They would do anything for me, Jay, like they rose up to
29:37
mediation that I've never not seen that happen, by the way.
29:41
You give people what they need, you show up for them in
29:44
meaningful ways and thoughtful ways, they will go to the ends
29:47
of the earth for you. And it takes so little to have
29:50
that happen. No, it's, it's right.
29:53
It's surprising like it is like we're not talking about.
29:58
I mean, you said, listen, this is a long time.
30:01
I get it because you're dealing with businesses from from
30:04
certain size to certain size. It could be a tiny business, it
30:07
could be a massive business and I get every, every, every
30:10
project that you go into that timeline is probably different.
30:14
But you said there, you use the word like, you know, miniscule
30:17
minute, tiny little change is is bonkers to think that something
30:23
so small can make someone so happy.
30:25
I've told this story before, but I know I've told it to you, but
30:29
I was once visited on an exhibition by a very, very large
30:33
company, a very, very popular clothing manufacturer for female
30:40
clothing in the Uka large entourage of people behind this
30:44
individual. I'm a bit crafty exhibitions.
30:47
I know I'm the only person I'm sure I'm not, but I, I always
30:50
have a quick glance at their, their, their lanyard and their
30:52
badge to see who they work for, what their job title is, you
30:55
know, and this lady came onto the stand and, and was very,
31:00
very direct and just said, Hey, what do you do?
31:03
And I remember saying to her, Oh, well, we make, we make words
31:08
come alive, you know, written words.
31:10
We, we, we, we, we voice, enable those words so people can, can
31:14
hear the words out loud. She said, and you can just cheat
31:18
very, very nonchalantly. Just say, wow, we don't need
31:22
that. And as she, as she, as she very
31:26
glamorously turned to walk away, luckily for me, her lanyard flew
31:31
out of her pocket. And I just caught the name of
31:34
the company. And I won't, I won't say it on
31:38
this podcast, but I said, Oh my goodness, wow.
31:40
The name of the company. And I said, my wife has, has
31:44
three of your amazing winter coats in her wardrobe.
31:49
And she's oh. Really.
31:51
And I said, yeah, I said there's only one small problem, though.
31:55
And she's like, what's that? I said I could never buy
31:57
anything off your website. Why?
32:00
It's because I can't read it. She went, what?
32:04
I said I can't read your website.
32:06
I said, imagine, imagine making your website come alive.
32:11
You're a, you're a sales and marketing CMO.
32:15
I said, if I was to give you 8% more business, you would snap my
32:19
right arm off now, wouldn't you? And she said, yeah, I said,
32:23
well, just making your website speak would give you another 8%
32:28
more people able to view your website.
32:31
And she just went, wow, I've never thought about it like
32:34
that, but that's a tiny, tiny change.
32:36
That's just a tiny change. And everything you've just said
32:39
there about, you know, behaviour and processes and they're
32:44
probably, yes, there's probably some massive changes, but the
32:48
tiny ones, like you say, you get so much more from people just
32:51
and, and they are grateful you're dead, right?
32:53
The gratitude because you've done that for them, like
32:57
probably outweighs all this. I use the word pain.
32:59
It's not pain, but yes, it, they've got to go through a
33:02
process. Yes, they've got to go through a
33:03
change. Yeah, what are we losing?
33:06
Because people are struggling and it's something simple that.
33:09
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:12
Did they take that into account? Do they, do they, do they think?
33:16
Well, yeah, we've brought Trisha in.
33:19
She's asking us to do all this. I wonder if they ever, ever sit
33:22
there and go actually, what are we putting people through by not
33:26
doing this? You know, that that process,
33:29
it's interesting. OK, I've got another one for you
33:31
then. OK, so now we talked about CVS
33:36
and we've talked about, you know, you going in and, and the
33:39
processes you put in place to to redesign change and, you know,
33:43
help these. So I would like to do something
33:46
pretty cool here. Sometimes I'm not really done
33:48
before and I don't know if this is going to work on a podcast,
33:50
but we'll give it a go anyway. So let's design you and I, let's
33:55
think about how we could potentially design some kind of
34:00
Fair hiring process. And let's, let's use the word
34:05
neurodivergent. But let's put, let's put lots
34:07
more into that bracket because let's let's talk about inclusion
34:10
and everything we possibly can. So tell me your thoughts on
34:14
first of all, if you if, if, if, if you was doing the job.
34:19
I thought now OK, and I know this is probably an odd one for
34:23
podcasts because we can't virtually show it, but let's try
34:27
and talk through it. Tell me how you would maybe
34:31
scope that job over how what kind of criteria you may ask
34:35
for. Tell me about potentially how
34:39
you would, is there any alternatives to see these that
34:41
you've got ideas. Let's talk about that first and
34:44
then I want to talk maybe a little bit about interview
34:48
processes and psychometric tests we touched on.
34:51
So give me your thoughts on what business could maybe do
34:56
different in their in their advertising process for example?
35:00
I guess you know, the one thing I will say right off the bat is
35:04
make sure that you consult with people who actually have some of
35:07
these things, these these challenges to make sure you're
35:11
not. Interested.
35:12
Because I'm not going to be able to come up with everything.
35:14
I don't have a lot of these things.
35:15
I, I understand from, you know, the work that I do, I will never
35:19
be completely knowledgeable of everything someone faces and I
35:25
have to ask the people who are actually facing them.
35:28
So that's number one get. OK, ask me in.
35:32
On how it should be to make it easier for everyone else coming
35:35
after them. Almost like a round table.
35:37
So let's get round the table. Let's Chuck some things in here.
35:41
What are we missing? Right.
35:43
Secondly, how do we make this? Let's let's define our criteria
35:48
in a way where we're not asking, we're not requiring things that
35:52
we don't really need, and we're being very, very particular
35:57
about the things we actually do need and we're explaining why we
36:01
need them. Let's give a lot more color to
36:04
why we're asking for these requirements.
36:07
Let's dig down into these are our values.
36:11
These this is our commitment. You know, that can go a long way
36:14
too. Something having a commitment is
36:16
actually a commitment and saying we are committed to a more
36:20
accessible interviewing process and a more accessible assessment
36:25
process and hiring new candidates.
36:27
Please reach out to us if you need any accommodation for any
36:30
of this and we will be happy to accommodate you.
36:33
That's like an all all-encompassing thing that
36:35
makes it easy, right? Because I'm not typically.
36:38
To read the requirements to me. Maybe I'm blind.
36:41
But wasn't I? Yeah.
36:42
And I would be more likely to apply straight away just off
36:46
that sentence. She just said that straight
36:48
away. You don't have to know
36:49
everything, you just have to be willing to listen to what you
36:52
need to know. Yeah, no.
36:55
That's true. It's.
36:56
It sounds so simple, doesn't it? But I like you just spent you
37:01
mentioned a bit ago about LinkedIn, like the the process
37:04
is still the same. They're like, Oh my God, we just
37:06
one sentence makes all the difference, you know?
37:08
Yeah, and just mean it, right? You have to mean it.
37:11
Yeah. And someone calls you and says,
37:15
you know, I would love to, to interview for this position.
37:18
These are the these are the things I need to make it more
37:20
accommodating for the the challenges I have.
37:24
No one is going to say, forget it.
37:26
I'm not interested. Go away.
37:28
Everyone will say tell me what you need, but we don't even ask
37:33
the questions. We don't make ourselves open to
37:36
the idea that we haven't thought of everything and if someone
37:39
comes to us, we can give them what they need.
37:42
Yeah, I've often wondered as well on on that process of the
37:47
initial first job advert like and you mentioned there saying,
37:51
Oh well, you know, tell us what you need.
37:53
I also always thought it would be good if someone could give
37:55
you the opportunity to, to speak the answers you know, to, to, to
38:02
almost fill in like a virtual form if they, if they prefer to
38:06
do it by talking. What one of my one of my ways of
38:10
communicating with people. And I don't know whether I've
38:12
done it with you yet, but I, I like to use on LinkedIn, for
38:16
example, the, the messaging function on LinkedIn, which
38:18
someone taught me recently. And I find that I can
38:22
communicate a lot better that way than trying to type it in
38:26
and write it. Because I never, I've either
38:28
come across angry or I come across frustrated or I, it's
38:33
not, it's not how I want to be perceived in that message, for
38:38
example. And I wonder, I wonder if
38:40
someone said, well, yes, Sir, you can actually answer these
38:43
questions. You can log on and you can, you
38:45
can speak your answers. I wonder if that tiny change as
38:49
well would make life a lot easier for some people as well,
38:53
you know? Absolutely.
38:54
And, and you'd capture several things there, right?
38:57
You'd capture people who are blind, you'd capture people who
39:00
have learning disabilities or dyslexia.
39:02
You, there's all kinds of things these, you know, and once people
39:07
know you have to ask the right questions.
39:09
I mean, honestly, 75% of this is asking the right questions or
39:13
being open to hearing questions and answers that you haven't
39:16
anticipated before. Yeah.
39:20
What what about like what's your thoughts on we talked about like
39:24
CVS and everything. What's your thoughts on on
39:27
interview techniques and processes?
39:30
Let me let me tell you, my friend went for an interview
39:34
about six weeks ago. He is dyslexic and AD and he's a
39:41
bag of nerves and the best time. He's one of the smartest people
39:43
I know. Literally this, this guy, you
39:46
could drop this guy in a well with just a shoelace and somehow
39:51
we'd find his way out. He's just, he's the genius,
39:54
right? This guy, this guy went for 6/6
39:58
interviews and I was like, wow, what are they paying you like a
40:02
million a year? And he's like, no, he's like
40:05
first one was with the hiring manager and it was an hour long.
40:10
The second one was with like the hiring manager and.
40:13
This lady's manager. Then I had to go in and do a
40:16
psychometric test and after the psychometric test, they got the
40:19
results and they walked me through my answers.
40:22
Then I had to go back and I had to meet some members of the team
40:25
that I'm going to be working. No, I actually like that bit.
40:28
That bit for me, I thought, well, that's cool.
40:30
The people you're going to work with that.
40:33
That for me makes sense. Absolutely.
40:36
Sit face to face interviews. And the longest one was nearly
40:41
an hour and 45 minutes long. Now that's either really
40:45
thorough and they want to make sure they're getting the right
40:48
person, or it's almost overkill, you know?
40:52
Yeah. You know, honestly, I think that
40:56
is mostly to cover up that people don't really know how to
40:59
interview people. I don't think we really know.
41:03
How You said the right questions, right?
41:05
Asking the right questions, right?
41:07
Right. I.
41:08
Don't think we really know how to assess character and
41:12
integrity and trust and whether someone can work well on a team
41:17
and all those things. We don't do a very good job of
41:19
it. So we have all these layers to
41:21
try to cover up the fact that we don't know how to ask the right
41:23
questions and get and, and delve into what the answers are.
41:26
Yeah. He said, he said, the one guy
41:31
said to me, he says, oh, you know, you've been really open
41:33
and transparent about your dyslexia in ADHD.
41:37
How I got to remember now. He said something like, how, how
41:41
do you know, how do you feel that would does that affect your
41:44
performance on a day-to-day basis?
41:45
Is there anything we need to accommodate for that?
41:47
Which I thought was brilliant, right?
41:49
And then he said, I just said, listen, all you need to do is
41:51
just give me the tools to do my job and I'll I'll actually
41:54
outperform the majority of people.
41:57
And the guy just said, well, I, I, I, I, I actually doubt that.
42:02
How are you so sure of that? You know, And he said, I, I
42:06
found that what was a comfortable question to start
42:11
with was made to feel really uncomfortable because I, I kind
42:15
of said, look, if you just give me what I need, I'll actually
42:19
probably do 10% more than I would do if you didn't.
42:22
And he said it's only because the way I answered it, I
42:24
answered it incorrectly and it put this guy on his back on the
42:28
on the back foot. You know, he look, he got the
42:32
job and that's great. But I was like, what, 6?
42:36
Like I think in total it was nearly 8 1/2 hours of
42:40
interviews. How exhausting.
42:43
Is that? I mean, that would be
42:44
exhausting, yeah. Well, it's stressful too, right?
42:47
Exhausting is stressful and, and you know, not just forget to
42:53
take, take away the neuro diversity aspect on anybody that
42:57
is exhausting and painful and time consuming.
43:01
And like you said, just ask the right questions, you know?
43:06
You know, I'm a big believer in I understand screening
43:10
interviews because frankly, in most of the companies I'm
43:13
working with, the people who decide who gets hired also have
43:17
other jobs that they're being being charged with.
43:20
So I get it. I work with a lot of law firms,
43:23
accounting firms, financial financial services firms, and
43:27
the people who are doing that work and getting new clients and
43:31
all those things are also doing recruiting.
43:33
So I get it, Have someone who screens to make sure, right?
43:37
But once you bring someone into the office, you need to have a
43:42
group of people that interview those people, the candidates
43:45
about different kinds of things, right?
43:48
Have someone interview on the values of the company.
43:52
Have someone interview on teamwork, have someone interview
43:55
on technical acumen. And then you know you you get
43:59
together with the entire team of interviews after and you decide
44:02
whether this person makes sense or not.
44:04
It doesn't have to be onerous. It should be 3 hours tops to
44:08
figure that out. Each person can assess a lot of
44:12
stuff in half an hour if you're focused.
44:14
Yeah, wow. You took a lot of sense, You
44:21
really do. I I like I say, I wish I could
44:22
never wave that magic wand and drop you in in front of some
44:26
people. I'd like it.
44:29
Yeah. I don't know.
44:30
It's it's it's I. Really.
44:34
Yeah. I haven't, you know.
44:38
Yeah. I, I, I, you know, I'll mention
44:40
my son. I really hope that in, in, in,
44:42
well, he actually won't even be that long, will he?
44:44
But, you know, you think about like where we are in how long
44:48
we've been in, in work and in industry.
44:50
And I really hope these changes happen.
44:54
And I hope that people do embrace people like you and go,
44:58
well, you know, look, we want to listen, but we're prepared to
45:01
listen. We want to know what we can do
45:03
to make these changes and what does this change look like?
45:05
And I hope that does happen because forget it, forget about,
45:10
forget about like, you know, forget about the, the, the, the,
45:15
the, the length of time it could take.
45:17
Forget about how, how hard it could be, forget about like the
45:20
changes you have to make. Think if they could just see the
45:23
end goal, you know what it actually looks like that tiny
45:27
bit of light at the end of the tunnel and see what that tiny
45:29
bit of light looks like. I think there'll be more people
45:31
embrace I've, I've written something down on my piece of
45:34
paper here about tough truths. So let's talk about when people
45:41
maybe don't visualize that, that that light at the end of the
45:45
talk. Can you tell me maybe kind of
45:47
like a common excuse you might hear from senior leaderships?
45:51
How, how do you break it down to them?
45:54
The you know, Hey, let me, let me show you that that that bit
45:58
of light at the end of thought, Do you dismantle it from them a
46:00
bit? How do you how do you get them
46:02
on your side? I guess the first thing I would
46:05
say is for the people who are are struggling currently,
46:08
perhaps some, you know, a part of them they're not willing to
46:12
share. I would tell you that in the
46:13
right place, if you're in the right place, you get to be full
46:17
of yourself. That's number one.
46:21
Don't give up on the idea that there are places and spaces and
46:25
places where you can thrive and you can be full of yourself and
46:28
be and people will honor the contribution you make because of
46:33
who you are. Those places exist and you are
46:37
worthy of those places. That's number one.
46:40
With regard to the truth, I would speak to leadership and I
46:44
do this all the time. I need them to be a lot more
46:49
self reflective. I need them to say I know better
46:52
now so I'm going to do better. People are not going to struggle
46:56
on my watch. That's, that's what leadership
46:58
is. It is rising up to meet people
47:01
where they currently are in real life and giving them the tools
47:07
to be wildly successful and reach their fullest potential.
47:10
I call that the covenant. You know, as a leader, you're
47:14
you're signing up to take people and give them what they need to
47:19
reach their fullest potential while they're with you and
47:21
they're showing up to do their best work to learn as much as
47:25
they can and show up with their fullest potential.
47:29
As long as we had that covenant and it and it was actually
47:31
realized, then I'd have to find something else to do with my
47:34
life. Yeah.
47:36
I, I love that land, by the way. You're not going to struggle on
47:39
my watch. That is, that is a really
47:42
powerful statement. I mean, if more, if more leaders
47:45
thought like that, wow, you're not going to struggle on my
47:48
watch. Yeah, I'm going to find a way to
47:51
make things easier for you so you can thrive.
47:54
Yeah, that's what a leader. Is people thrive?
47:58
Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
47:59
absolutely. Yeah.
48:01
It's the person that's prepared to, you know, not just stand by
48:05
your shoulder, lead the line and and drive you forward and hold
48:10
your hand when you need your hand holding, you know, guide
48:13
the way. Yeah, great, great line.
48:15
That is if you I don't, I don't want you to name anybody, but
48:18
have you ever come across a particular business that's
48:22
that's really thrived from from you may maybe weren't
48:28
particularly engaging to start with, but but have thrived And
48:31
what did you see from that improvement?
48:33
What was the particular thing that you noticed?
48:39
Yes, the answer is yes. I have worked with companies and
48:43
firms where it seems like it's not going to change.
48:46
Even from my perspective, it seems like a very long road, but
48:50
I will tell you, once you have shown a level of commitment and
48:57
been willing to make mistakes, in light of that commitment and
49:01
honor those mistakes, you'll say I I'm going to do better.
49:04
I have to understand more. The people around you, the young
49:09
people, the people who've been there for years, when they see
49:12
that you're serious, man, it changes everything because they
49:19
will figure out ways to be helpful to that cause.
49:22
They will. Figure out ways to thrive even
49:24
in spite of the fact that you haven't figured it all out yet.
49:27
No one wants you to have all the answers.
49:29
That's one thing. Let's just just, you know,
49:31
dispel that. Notion.
49:33
They want you to do the best you can given what you know.
49:38
That's all. Unbelievable.
49:43
You kind of already touched on this a little bit, but I've got
49:48
three. I, I guess I've got 3 questions
49:50
left for you on one of them. I don't know if you, if you want
49:54
to go there or not, but we'll, we'll ask you anyway.
49:57
So we bought the UK and we bought up the disability
50:02
confident figures. Let's just say I dropped you in
50:04
AUK business right now and there was a group of leaders.
50:08
Let's go really old fashioned here.
50:09
OK, let's paint a picture. So we're sat around a big board
50:12
table and you've got all the senior leaders of this big
50:15
company sat around a board table and I gave you that magic wand
50:21
that I keep talking about. I knew you said to him, right,
50:23
I'm going to wave a magic wand and by Monday your employees are
50:27
going to feel this change that you've made.
50:29
What? What?
50:30
What would that? What would that one thing be
50:33
that you'd do for that business that would make the employees
50:35
really go, wow, we can feel this change.
50:37
Thanks for doing this. I would have their leadership
50:41
tell the truth. I would have the leadership say,
50:48
you know, we've been made aware that we have a lot to learn and
50:53
understand about our own people and what we need to do to make
50:58
that better for everyone that works here.
51:00
And we're committed to doing differently.
51:02
But we're first going to acknowledge what we didn't
51:04
understand. No one, like I said before, we
51:09
get our egos get so caught up in I, you know, no one does this
51:15
stuff maliciously for the most part, right?
51:17
Or or doesn't do stuff maliciously.
51:20
It is a lack of understanding, is a lack of commitment, lack of
51:24
trying. Those things wear on trust.
51:28
But if we. Go up and say I acknowledge I
51:32
have a lot to learn and I commit to doing better, man.
51:36
Then we got something really powerful and we can run with
51:39
strategies that will work. You buy into that as well, right
51:43
as an as an employee, but just that statement just said then
51:47
you've got me. OK, I'm buying into this, aren't
51:50
I? Because.
51:51
Absolutely. And then the second step is how
51:54
can we recruit everyone else to make this happen more powerfully
51:58
and quicker? Yeah, yeah, it's good.
52:01
It's a good line. OK so there's the magic wand.
52:03
So anyone that's listening, that's that's that's Trish's
52:06
statement. She's coming in with A1 and
52:07
that's what you're going to do tell the truth.
52:09
There you go. OK, so I have got I'll ask you
52:14
this person I'm going to close off for the question that I'm
52:17
also keeping for for this season.
52:19
But I mentioned that you will get people reaching out to you
52:24
Now, I'd love I'd love to for to be a load of businesses reach
52:28
out to you and go, hey, OK, we are prepared to tell the truth.
52:32
So tell me if anybody wants to get in touch with you, where can
52:36
they find you? How can they get in touch with
52:38
you? You know, will you take Ukraine
52:40
inquiries, most importantly? And yeah, give everybody your
52:44
details and I'll make sure they're actually on the bottom
52:46
of the podcast as well. But I think it's really
52:48
important people know if they want to reach out to you, how
52:50
they can get hold of you. Yes, so absolutely my, the
52:55
easiest way to get a hold of me is probably through my e-mail
52:59
trishatrisha@empoweredlc.com and you can find me on LinkedIn at
53:04
Trisha Dow. And we do business all over the
53:07
world. So absolutely reach out if even
53:09
if you just want to, you know, bounce some ideas off of me, I'm
53:12
happy to talk. Amazing.
53:15
So there you go. No one's got any excuses.
53:16
Now, when I did this, I the reason the podcast is called
53:23
thick No more is because that's all I was called at school was
53:26
thick. And I've had a lot of I've had
53:30
trauma people on, I've had ADHD people on.
53:33
I've had tech tech gurus on. I really want to make a change
53:37
this season. I want people like you want
53:39
Trisha real game changes on people that can come in and
53:42
influence businesses and and help that change that process.
53:47
So my final question to you is what does think no more mean to
53:51
you? It means that once and for all
53:55
we're going to end the bias that if you have some kind of
53:59
neurodivergence, it has anything to do with your level of
54:03
intelligence. It has 0 correlation to to the
54:07
challenges that people face in learning and understanding.
54:11
It's just a simply different way of having your brain work,
54:15
that's all. Yeah, yeah, there's.
54:18
Nothing amazing, lovely thing Yeah, I know it's I think it's
54:23
funny that it within the podcasts all of them everyone's
54:27
given beautiful, beautiful answers to that.
54:29
And again you've just another another amazing answer.
54:32
So thank you and I've got to thank you because this has been
54:35
such a powerful conversation for me.
54:37
I think what I've learned a few things that I've scribbled down
54:40
in my, my amazing handwriting while we've been talking is the,
54:45
the, you know, inclusion isn't just the check box.
54:49
That's the first thing I've taken from this conversation.
54:52
I think workplace change isn't about posters on the wall going,
54:58
you know, and, and, and and and policies.
55:01
It's, it's, it's from the topics.
55:03
When leaders create the word, the word truth, they listen
55:06
deeply and I guess with courage and drive that forward.
55:10
I think that's one of the things you've kind of really, really
55:12
got across there, which I think is great.
55:14
And I really hope that people listen to this and value the
55:19
things you've said. And I know they will.
55:21
And I can't thank you enough because I know how precious time
55:24
is to you. So thank you so much for joining
55:26
me on this podcast. And yeah, I'll continue reaching
55:30
out and getting other people on. So thank you guys for listening.
55:34
And remember, there are no labels and there are no limits.
55:37
Trisha, thank you so much for joining me today.
55:40
Thank you for having me, it's been an absolute pleasure.