Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Danny & Kelsie Froerer - From LDS to Mixed-Faith Marriage: Leaving Mormonism, Reclaiming Self-Worth & Choosing Curiosity Over Judgment

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Danny & Kelsie Froerer - From LDS to Mixed-Faith Marriage: Leaving Mormonism, Reclaiming Self-Worth & Choosing Curiosity Over Judgment · MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt

• Brynne Erickson (00:28) right, hi Kelsey and Danny. Thanks so much for being with me tonight and going over your story of faith and where you're at now and where you've been. How are you guys feeling tonight about sharing your story? Danny And Kelsie (00:41) Good. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (00:43) Awesome. I'm glad you feel that way. Not everybody feels that way. And I know that you guys have been on quite the journey together. So let's dive right into it. So what was your spiritual upbringing? Just to kind of give us an idea of what your background was. Feel free to take turns. Danny And Kelsie (01:01) ⁓ Yeah, I grew up ⁓ LDS. My parents and siblings and my whole family are all Mormon and so ever since I was little that's how I grew up Brynne Erickson (01:18) What about you, Kels? Danny And Kelsie (01:18) Yeah, I really, yeah, just born and raised in the church, family, super active, grandparents, aunts and uncles for the most part, just everyone. That was what we did. So, yeah. Brynne Erickson (01:34) And did you ever, let's see how do I say this, did you just conform to that? Danny And Kelsie (01:41) For the most part for me I got in trouble you could say a little bit because I asked too many questions and would ask why and like what's this about and sometimes a lot of times wasn't a good answer, but when you're a kid, it's just like ⁓ okay. Well, I guess we'll figure it out one day and so just kind of let it go a lot of the those things but Brynne Erickson (02:12) Okay, what about you Kelsey? Danny And Kelsie (02:15) definitely just went along. feel like just, yeah, like conformed maybe. I didn't feel like it was conforming. It was just kind of what you did and my worldview. So. Brynne Erickson (02:26) Yeah, same. I never felt that it was a problem. Like I was content and happy and, and it, yeah, it was great. Danny And Kelsie (02:32) Yep. It just made sense. what everyone did and it's what, yeah, it's just what life was. So. Brynne Erickson (02:38) Yeah. Good stuff. Okay. So when you were growing up, were there any pivotal or influential moments or events that helped shape your faith that come to mind? Danny And Kelsie (02:50) ⁓ One of the things I thought of with that was, so I had just kind of different groups of friends growing up just based on like interests, like I played soccer but I was also in band, then had just like friends from like elementary school, but not all of them combined together. ⁓ But some of my friends... ⁓ kind of started going down a not so churchy path. And that's who I was doing a lot of stuff with. And I didn't like necessarily feel like it was like super crazy or super bad. But then I got called to be on seminary council in high school. And I was just like, oh, that's like, it's probably because I needed it. it was just like one of those like, oh, I should probably spend time with like better people. It's kind of like how I took that. And it's just like, this is my chance to like improve and be better. So that was like one of the things that I thought of. ⁓ They're like, ⁓ like ⁓ course correcting, I guess, for me, if that makes sense. Brynne Erickson (03:50) Yeah, definitely does. Danny And Kelsie (03:52) Yeah, and for me, guess there were like, there a few good and bad, I would say. ⁓ I mean, some of the good ones or the, the good, good ones were, you know, being, baptized and getting the priesthood and Brynne Erickson (04:05) Mmm. Danny And Kelsie (04:13) You know, I still remember when I was a junior in high school, it was President Hinckley who said, you know, you need to read the book more by the end of the year. And I'd never read it. And so I did. And I at least felt like it was true. And so I remember that. so they're in, I mean, the mission to go on. went to Columbia in South America and Brynne Erickson (04:23) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Danny And Kelsie (04:43) I feel like that was a really good experience and don't regret it by any means. But I also feel like there were things that weren't so great growing up. ⁓ So when I was 11, it was the late 90s and the internet, was just the wild west of internet and pornography was everywhere. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (04:55) Yeah. Like what? You Danny And Kelsie (05:12) So I mean, that's the first time I ever viewed pornography was when I was 11. And, you you listen to your church leaders and especially at conference and stuff. And they're like, if you have any problems or whatever, go talk to your bishop and talk to your parents. And so I would, and I feel like overall it was just not as helpful as I was looking back. It wasn't as helpful as I thought it was or hoped it would be. And I even remember one time in particular I asked, because you know a lot of it revolved around like, well you can't take the sacrament for a few months now, or you know, can't go to the temple and do baptisms for the dead for a little while. And I was just like, that was just the, just what I did all my teenage years. And one time in particular, and I can't remember the context, ⁓ in the beginning context, but I just remember asking one of my bishops, like I just, after our conversation, I just said, you know, I don't feel like this is how Jesus would handle it. Like it seems like he would be more loving. And I was like 14 or 15 and my bishop would just told me, he's like, well, you just don't want to be accountable for what you've done. And as know, a teenager, it's like, oh, well, I guess, I guess you're right. I guess I need to. Brynne Erickson (06:22) Hmm. Hmm. Danny And Kelsie (06:41) be more accountable. And so one of those things that, you know, at the time was like, ⁓ need to be better. Now looking back, it's like, hmm, that was probably not the best. Brynne Erickson (06:46) Hmm. Okay, well I want to ask how would, do you think that could have been handled differently? Danny And Kelsie (07:02) ⁓ yes. And I feel like, and that's a part that kind of comes up later. So I had a bishop that just responded like with love and kindness and, I joke with him a little bit, but I mean, ultimately he's the reason I left the church was because he was such a good bishop and It was such a stark difference between he handled things and spoke with me and talked with me about things that it just brought up a lot of past negative experiences, I guess, felt like I just kind of buried for a long time. Brynne Erickson (07:55) Hmm. Danny And Kelsie (07:56) But that, and I mean, I still remember too, another time, I guess just still talking about kind of pivotal moments or things growing up. ⁓ You know, high school's always kind of hit and miss with everybody. Some of us kind of experiment with different things. And so... Brynne Erickson (08:06) Yeah, let's do it. Yes. Danny And Kelsie (08:25) You know, there was a time that I was like kind of drinking and partying in high school and stuff. And then I read the Book of Mormon and everything. And I guess I should say before that, my parents sent me up to Northern Idaho to live with my grandparents for a summer because I wasn't... To get them away from all this bad influences. Yeah, all the bad kids. Brynne Erickson (08:46) Really? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Bad ones, yeah. Danny And Kelsie (08:57) And so went up there for a summer and, and it was that, you know, the end of that year that read the Book of Mormon and everything. But I just remember like our senior year, there was a, our senior cotillion dance, the last dance of, of our high school. And it was on the football field. And I just remember there were two big tents. you know, just kind of open canopies. And I was with my date and I just remember there were two kids that I grew up with ⁓ that came together, you two guys. And at the time I didn't quite understand, like honestly, there was a part of me that thought it was completely a choice. And so it was like, man, like I feel bad that. they had to choose this, you know, even though I know that's not how it works, or I should say not, I mean, you can choose whatever you want, but that's not, it's not always just a choice type thing. ⁓ But I remember there were some kids that, you know, they just said like, ⁓ when they were dancing, they said, I guess this is the gay tent. And. of like almost everybody went to the other tent and there were I don't know three or four couples left and there were only two tents and so it was just a very like very obvious what was going on and it was like for me it was just kind of I don't even know why or or what but I told my date I was like hey I just need to I need to go up in the stands for a minute because we were on the football field and Brynne Erickson (10:34) Mmm. Danny And Kelsie (10:51) just went up in the stands and I just kind of sat there and was just like, what is going on? Like this is not how we're supposed to treat people or I thought. And for me that was a big, and again, I can't, I don't know why, I can't explain like why I felt like that and maybe other people did, but they just didn't. Brynne Erickson (10:55) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (11:16) didn't care, I don't know. But for me it was a big moment of like, I don't think this is how we're supposed to treat people and... So. Brynne Erickson (11:30) That's so interesting. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Danny And Kelsie (11:33) But, you have your sights. I know, I was gonna say besides that, can't. Those are some of the big ones. So you had a lot more. I can think of. I of, was just like, I thought of like one that was just like, oh, like, you need to be better. Yeah. So. Brynne Erickson (11:49) Yeah, it's interesting because Danny, you and I went to school together and we didn't run around in the same crowds, but it's hearing you tell that story. Like I would never think the Danny Frower from high school would have a moment like that. Like, so it's so interesting. Why have you ever thought of why that impacted you so much at that time? Danny And Kelsie (12:02) Yeah, I agree. I think part of it is because like, you when you've talked to me about it, like you've told me, like you looked around and like everyone, like they were all members of the church and like all supposed to be like the good kids that like were supposed to be kind. And they're the ones that like, we're saying those things and like walked out like purposely to like exclude that couple. And I think. Brynne Erickson (12:37) Mmm. Danny And Kelsie (12:43) you saw that and were just like, wait, like, not only am I like supposed to not treat people this way, but like, I know all of you have been taught. Yeah. I feel like that's kind of how you've talked to me about it at least. Yeah. Cause I think part of it was like, I didn't want to go on a mission all growing up. Like I didn't, like I'd go to church and it was great. Whatever went to camps and it was fine, but like I never wanted to go on a mission. And so then, you know, I had, Brynne Erickson (12:55) Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (13:13) in high school just kind of partied and whatever and then found Jesus you could say and ⁓ and so that was like you know hmm I guess my senior year was like the middle of our senior year and and so it was after that it was like okay well I now I do want to go on a mission and I do want to do all this stuff ⁓ Brynne Erickson (13:18) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Danny And Kelsie (13:42) And so I feel like there are a lot of things that just I didn't really think about before or didn't didn't notice or or I don't know just didn't pay attention to but when I was actually trying you know to to be good or however you want to phrase it it was I like I just noticed a few those things more and I Brynne Erickson (14:04) Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (14:10) feel like I was trying to internalize a lot of the things that were taught, you know, like love one another, be kind and compassionate and... and so... Brynne Erickson (14:23) OK, awesome. Well, thank you so much. So leading up from that, how have your religious views shifted then from high school? That was almost 20 years ago. We're celebrating our 20th next year. ⁓ So how have your religious views shifted? And where are you guys at today? Danny And Kelsie (14:24) That's, yeah. So for me, it, so, you know, we graduated, I went on a mission, came home and met Kelsey. We were going to Weber, Weber State, and yeah, got married in the temple and everything. like, and that was, and I didn't even have like ⁓ a thought of, ⁓ this isn't true, you know. Had some, always had some questions, you know. Brynne Erickson (14:57) Great, great, great. So your mission was a good experience then, like nothing came up on your mission. Danny And Kelsie (15:16) Yeah, I'd say overall, ⁓ it was different than what I thought. know, everyone says it's the best two years. Yeah. And then you get out there and it's like, mean, most of the sucks, but yeah, you some good times. Found good people, made some good friends, but yeah, some days it's just like, this is not fun. Going up, trying to talk to people and everyone shutting you down. All your appointments fall through. It's like. Brynne Erickson (15:33) It's, yeah. It's hard, yeah. Danny And Kelsie (15:47) best two years, you know, like looking back on the totality of it, it's like, yeah, it was, it was really good. And for me, was good going to another country, seeing kind of another culture and those differences. ⁓ and so, yeah, was like, don't regret that at all. And, and then, yeah, came home, got married in the temple. Brynne Erickson (15:50) Yes. Okay, awesome. Okay. Came home, did the normal things. Danny And Kelsie (16:16) And, and even then, like, you know, we had, always had little questions here and there or things that, I don't didn't quite add up, but it was like, man, we'll figure it out when we die or, you know, what, what we're always told. Well, they all know. Yep. And so, so yeah, so we were just ⁓ going to school and we ended up moving up to Logan and going to Utah state. Brynne Erickson (16:31) Yeah, one day we'll have the answers. Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (16:46) And, and while we were in, we lived in student housing and for way too long, for way too long. Great. But while we were there, I got called into a bishopric. And so I was the first counselor in a bishopric. And I call it like, it's like a faux bishopric a little bit, cause you know, we're the bishop is Brynne Erickson (16:55) ⁓ shoot. Danny And Kelsie (17:16) a high priest, but the two counselors, me and the other guy, know, we weren't ordained to the high priesthood, you know, or anything. ⁓ while I was doing that, and I still, like I think when they called me, it was kind of funny because I thought they told us that we had to come in together and they told me, need to make sure Kelsey's there. And I was like, Brynne Erickson (17:26) Okay, interesting. Danny And Kelsie (17:45) Okay, it's probably something for Kelsey. And we knew the state president, he was our previous bishop and then our new bishop, you know, so had a good rapport with both of them. But they called me into the bishopric and like I laughed because I thought they were joking and they were like, no, we're serious. And Kelsey's the one. Brynne Erickson (17:53) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Danny And Kelsie (18:10) that was like, think they're... He's like, Danny, they're really calling you. I think they're serious. this, it's not a joke. And I was just like, all right, that's fine. And I told him, I was like, look, if this is gonna go down, like this is what you want, you have to know a few things. Like first, I laugh at bad jokes because they're funny. Like, I don't always watch the best TV and movies. I don't always listen to the best music. Brynne Erickson (18:15) Hmm. Danny And Kelsie (18:40) It's I swear sometimes. Yeah, I swear sometimes and I might swear in church, in a meeting, like I'll pray. Yeah, but like, you're getting what you get and you know what you're getting. You guys are okay with this. Great. And they said they were. I was like, all right, that's great. Cause that's one thing that I always, that always bugged me was just hypocrisy. Cause I know to some extent we're all Brynne Erickson (18:46) This is what you're getting. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Danny And Kelsie (19:10) hypocrites and something, you know, but like I feel like for me at least like I'm not gonna get up like I'm not gonna listen to the music that I liked and then get up in church and Tell everyone that they better listen to good music all the time. Yeah, listen You should only be listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, you know, So I got called and while he's in the bishopric Brynne Erickson (19:23) ⁓ okay, gotcha. Danny And Kelsie (19:33) It was actually that bishop, his name's Scott. And, you know, I chatted with him about pornography sometimes, and there's one question. So he's a family therapist. And I asked him, I was like, look, growing up, I was told that if I just, if I didn't get over this problem of pornography, that eventually what would happen is I would just look at darker and Brynne Erickson (19:44) There you go. Danny And Kelsie (20:03) darker and more extreme stuff and ultimately become like Ted Bundy. Like a sex addict or whatever. It would continue to be worse and worse. Yeah. And so I asked him one time, was just like, that never happened. So what's up? Am I just weird? Did everybody else turn out to be these crazy whatever? Brynne Erickson (20:10) Yes. huh. Yes. Addicts, yeah. Danny And Kelsie (20:34) So we were talking and stuff about that and he's like, no, that's not true. they used to say that to try to scare people. And it was like, well, yeah, makes sense. but there was this one time that like I messed up, you know, I messed up and looked at pornography and like I went to Scott and I was just like, Hey, like a messed up and I don't know what to do. And I feel bad because I was in the bishopric, you know. And he told me, he's just like, it's like, what are you doing this Wednesday? I was like, just class and work and stuff. He's like, well, he's like, do think you can come to the temple with me? I was like, no, can't come. I have to wait like at least three months or something. Like that's how it's always been. You know, you have to, you have to do your time. Brynne Erickson (21:03) Hmm. You Danny And Kelsie (21:30) can't take the sacrament, all this stuff. was like, literally every time. Brynne Erickson (21:31) Right. You lose things. Danny And Kelsie (21:36) And he's like, no, it's like, obviously you're, you know, stressed, go, you're in school. At that point we had had our first kid. ⁓ Yeah. And Kelsey was bright. Still in student housing. Kelsey was working full time. It's just like, it a crazy time. And he's like, look, life's crazy. Obviously like the temple's where you need to be. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (21:48) Hmm. Still in student housing. Yeah. I love that. That's amazing. Danny And Kelsie (22:06) He's like, if perfect, only perfect people could go to the temple, he's like, the temples would be empty. Like I remember him saying that. I was just like, yeah. And so was like, oh, and literally the first time that had ever happened. And it was like, oh, well, yeah, I guess let's go to the temple. And so we went and like, it was good and everything. But after that, it just, I don't even. I can't even explain, you know, like just how it all kind of unraveled, but essentially that was the time that that had ever happened. You know, someone actually showed love and kindness and in response to a mistake. Yeah. Instead of shame. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (22:53) I love that. Like you need, yeah, you need more Jesus, more love, not less. Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (23:01) Yeah. And it just kind of messed me up. I don't even know how it's to say it. just, and after that, just started thinking about different things that came up when I was growing up, know, conversations with leaders and parents and, and ultimately, so I was actually in the in the bishopric for, usually we, the counselors were just in there for a year and I was in for two years. And when I was released, I mean, it wasn't long after that, that I kind of like months that I just kind of started to not like I would still go and stuff, but not believe in. ⁓ just kind of, that was the turning point of, or the start, I guess maybe, the turning point of my faith, but start of my faith journey. And so. Brynne Erickson (24:14) That's so interesting because you would think that it would like want you to participate more. But yet you decided that the best place was for you to distance yourself, which I don't think is wrong at all. It's just the next step in the journey, right? So why do you have you concluded why like that this was your next step? Danny And Kelsie (24:21) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think part of it was, is because like that's what I was looking for. Whether I knew it or not, when I was growing up, like that's what you want and need. know, when you're a kid and a teen and your brain's developing and ⁓ you're getting all this input from adults who supposedly know everything, or so you think. ⁓ and you listen to them and you know, they tell you things like, ⁓ you need to just brain read your scriptures and things will get better. And then when things don't get better, he put all that on himself. It was always like, ⁓ I must not be enough. I'm not doing enough. Like it was very internalized. And I think you talked to Scott and like, just like it put a crack in that and ⁓ Brynne Erickson (25:34) you Danny And Kelsie (25:35) The crack was under so much pressure that it eventually had to explode. Like he'd just been like burying everything behind everything for so long. Yeah. Cause it was, I mean, it was, we've talked about it since and it like, was daily that I would think about, pornography or something and just feel shame, like just an ashamed like every single day. And, ⁓ Brynne Erickson (25:59) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (26:05) And even if it wasn't that, was just about other aspects of life. Like if he wasn't like the best, best spouse, like he was just never enough in any aspect. And because that's what he'd been told forever, like never directly, but that's like when you're told constantly like, if you do this, this, and this, then this will happen. And that doesn't happen. Like, and yep, then it's his problem. It's his fault. I like, yeah. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (26:08) and you were never enough. then you're broken. Danny And Kelsie (26:33) And you're told things, you know, you'd mess up again or something. And they're like, well, have you been reading and praying? And it's like, yeah, I have been. It's like, oh, I guess you're not doing it enough. I guess- Like can you be doing more? Like what more could you be doing? Could you be going to temple? Like it was always just like, put back on him. was never just like, until Scott kind of just showed him like what it was like to like be given like compassion. Yeah. Which, and again, and I- feel like that's the Jesus that I understood even when I was a teenager. I feel like that's how he would have handled things. ⁓ so I almost felt like I do and did feel a little vindicated in a way, know, and just like, like this is how it's supposed to be and things. ⁓ But it was just, at that point, things had built up so much that it was like. Brynne Erickson (27:07) Yeah. Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (27:33) is almost too late and then, you know, he started reading about other things like the book of Abraham and it was like, I don't know about that. And, ⁓ the church has hundreds of billions of dollars. That's interesting. Like, we still have to, like, you can't even pay for missionaries, like little things that was just like, what about this? You know, and. and And yeah, that was, I guess, kind of the start of it for me. Brynne Erickson (28:13) Hmm. I actually really love that you were opened up to this concept that you were enough as you were with your bad side or your issues or your lesser than's and it like gave you permission to ask the questions finally and to see who you could be if you accepted yourself as you are. And so I love Danny And Kelsie (28:37) Yeah. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (28:40) I love that you were willing enough to take that step and to see who you could become on this other side. Danny And Kelsie (28:47) Yeah, because it did take a little bit of time. know, like we were still in school and then graduated and... Still having kids. Still having kids because that's what we're supposed to do. for me, like I started drinking and it got to a point that it was pretty unhealthy. Brynne Erickson (28:51) Yeah. Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (29:16) And, and at that point, like I was working in Layton and I had a buddy from school and he was in Colorado and he said, Hey, there's a job here. Company's good. Like you should apply and come out. I was like, ⁓ sounds really interesting. And so got a job and we moved out to Colorado and, I still remember like, I don't know. Kelsey remembers, but it was like the first week we were there, you know, we are away from family and all their opinions and comments. and I told Kelsey, you know, when he was working at Layton too, he didn't add this, but we were living either with his parents or his grandma that lived next door to his parents. So he has gone through all of this and it, they were very much involved, like more than. Brynne Erickson (29:53) good way of putting it. That's right. Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (30:15) Probably would have. Should have been, but like we were just there. there, you know, cause we were trying to figure out like, ⁓ should we buy a house? Yeah. Cause he also got this job and he knew it wasn't something that he wanted to necessarily stick with, but it was a good job for now, but we didn't want to base everything on like purchasing a home based on that and stuff. we were kind of just in limbo for a minute after school ended. Brynne Erickson (30:20) Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (30:45) new job that he didn't love. anyway, yeah. So, but yeah, but then, yeah, we moved and it was like the first week we were there and I told Kelsey, I was like, I'm done feeling bad every day. Like I'm, done. Like I'm not doing it anymore. And like, I still go into church with her and I still did for a long time. And, ⁓ and Brynne Erickson (30:49) So concerned, loving parents. Danny And Kelsie (31:15) Like I didn't have a problem with that or anything, but I was like, I'm just, I'm not. just, was like physically going, but he shut off like the belief part so that he could go and like be supportive, but he wasn't internalizing and feeling the shame anymore. He's just like, I'm done feeling that way. Yeah. And at that point, mean, I essentially stepped away from the church. You know, I didn't. believe in what it was or. You know, the things that all the truth claims. It's just like, I just don't, I just don't believe this. Like, I've been told too many times that, you know, if you do X, then that'll equal Y, and it never did. and so, yeah, I just, I stepped away, but I'd still go, like I said, still go with Kelsey and help with boys. because they were going, but yeah, I just, I feel like that was a big step two is I just was done feeling bad. And I mean, we were there for three years and even when we lived there and then moved back, I mean, was still, it's still sometimes, you you feel bad for something, but I feel like it was a one of the best things we could have done. And for me, selfishly, come to find it. Brynne Erickson (32:56) So how have you stopped feeling bad? Danny And Kelsie (33:02) Good question. think, so once I decided that I was done feeling bad. Like he really did declare it too. It's not even like, like he wasn't feeling that like we moved to Colorado and it really was like the first Sunday. Yeah. I'm pretty sure. Cause I remember it, but he was just like, I'm done feeling bad about myself. I'm not going to feel this anymore. And then I feel like from there, like, of course it wasn't like night and day difference, but I feel like. There he just started like not talking negatively to himself all day every day about every little thing. Yeah. So. Because I think part of it is like it's not healthy. Like that's just it's not for any. Brynne Erickson (33:43) So what was your, can you give an example? Like what was your talk like before? Danny And Kelsie (33:48) Um, so before it'd be like, you know, just for example, I'd be doing something and, um, say, you know, you see some ad, I guess, um, ad that they sexualized in some way and, um, you know, would get you thinking like, oh, she was cute or blah, blah, blah. And then you think a little bit more and then it's like, oh, like, can't, like, I don't want to mess up again. Like, don't want to do that. And it's like, ⁓ you're so dumb. Like, why do you do that all the time? Like, why can't you just, why can't you just not think those things? I think it was like, have you ever heard like the, don't think of a purple elephant or a pink elephant, whatever they say. Like they sit there and like, someone tells you like, do not think about a purple elephant and stuff. And then that's all you can think about because someone's telling you over and over again. And that's what he was doing to himself all the time. Like he was. Brynne Erickson (34:41) Yeah, that's true. Okay. Danny And Kelsie (34:47) trying so hard not to think about those things that that's all he could think about, feel like. And so, and then he would like just make himself feel worse and worse about it. And so I think he gave himself permission to not feel bad about it. And then like it resolved both problems. feel like, like just kind of got you out of that cycle that you'd been in for a long time. So. Yeah. Just tell myself like. that you're dumb and you just need to do better. Like, you know what you need to do. Just do it, you know? Brynne Erickson (35:18) Mm-hmm. Okay, so if that scenario happened again, new Danny, non-shaming Danny would do what? Danny And Kelsie (35:31) ⁓ so now, I mean, I, part of it is just realizing, or just having a healthier view and understanding of, ⁓ like sex and, and things like that. And, you know, ⁓ I guess an example would be walking in the mall and you see the Victoria's Secret ads and stuff store. And instead of just being like, ⁓ man. that's so awesome, know, like, ooh, that's nice. It's just like, yeah, that's part of life. Especially like husband and wife. We can be intimate and have sex and do things and it's fine. But like that's not all of life and that's not, you know. Brynne Erickson (36:09) Yes. And we don't have to shame it. Like it's a very normal, natural thing. Danny And Kelsie (36:30) Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's not, not a bad thing. Cause I think that was another big part of it was like, and I mean, all religions do it, but they frame things as good and bad. And now, ⁓ and a lot of things, like I just, I don't think that things are necessarily good or bad. It's just, they just are. And. Brynne Erickson (36:36) Mm. Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (37:00) And that's okay. Like doesn't have to influence me one way or the other. And, and so I feel like that's a big part of it too, is just not framing it as good and bad, but just it is. And Brynne Erickson (37:18) It is. Well, and so many things can be both. Like in one circumstance, maybe it is good and maybe for another it's bad. And sometimes it's neutral. Like it can be all of the things. Yeah. that's awesome. Danny And Kelsie (37:28) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, because I even remember hearing, you know, like, two words, the two words, I'm pregnant, you know, they can be the most exciting two words for somebody in their life. And for another person, those same two words can be the most, like, devastating two words. so it's just like, all right, well, what is it, good or bad? Like, which is it? And so... Brynne Erickson (37:49) Absolutely. Right. Yes. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jenny. OK, Kelsey, you ready to share? OK. Danny And Kelsie (38:05) Yeah. So, so like, obviously I'm a part of this whole journey with Danny. So yeah, all of this like starts happening. It's just like, and it's kind of funny cause like I knew like that's one thing Danny was always very open and honest with everything just that he was going through, which a, like I always appreciated. But Brynne Erickson (38:10) A huge part, yes. Danny And Kelsie (38:32) So it wasn't like these things were necessarily hidden. Like even before we were married, like I knew that he ⁓ had his struggles with pornography and different things like that. He was very open and honest. And so he's also very open and honest along like his journey, even like feelings of the church. we talked a lot about all that stuff. ⁓ Before we moved to Colorado, he had told me that he didn't want to go to church anymore. Brynne Erickson (38:44) Nice. Danny And Kelsie (39:01) and that was like, was really hard and I, I definitely dug in quite a bit for a little while. like I just, I wanted him to try different things, like maybe not do what he was doing. Cause like, I also could see the damage that like the shame, like I could see that. And we talked about some of that stuff. And so like, So we kind of compromised and he didn't always have to go to church, but like I'd like him to, cause we also had little kids. And at that point we agreed that like the plan was to continue to like raise them in the church. And, ⁓ I also didn't want to be other in his mind because I continued to go. Like we just kind of, I feel like we talked a lot and kind of made agreements, but yeah, then we moved to Colorado and yeah, well, even before that, like we talked to, cause we were living. Brynne Erickson (39:34) Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (39:58) close and with parents and like chats with both of our parents and you know, they had chats with me and, honestly like they did what they were supposed to do and just be like, well, you know, they told me like, mean, don't stop going. You need to keep going, but like maybe just try to view it from a different perspective or, know, this or that. And like, try to get me to. Brynne Erickson (40:01) yeah. Yeah. Right. Danny And Kelsie (40:29) change my mind about it I guess which again it's not like I don't fault Kelsey or or either our parents for trying to do that like that's just that's what you should do you know that's what we're taught to do. Brynne Erickson (40:41) That's what loving Danny And Kelsie (40:42) But ultimately, and we've talked about this is like, if we had stayed in Utah and that was, if that would have been kind of the, the narrative, like I think I would have left very angry and very, know, just like very jaded against the church and people in it. Yeah. But before it got to that point, that's when we moved. moved and Danny loved Colorado from the very get go, but we moved with like, had a, our third during all of this and he was like two months old when we moved. So really small newborn. had two other kids. Um, and when we had our, uh, third, that's also when I quit working. So just like a lot of really big changes for me. I'd been working full time up till then. Um, Brynne Erickson (41:32) Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (41:36) Kind of quit. at that point it was just like, yeah, Danny has like a decent job. We're moving to another state. Like plan was for me to stay home. So that was like, just a really big change for me to like, be at home with three kids. And our third was a very grumpy baby, really like, he just cried all the time. Didn't nap, didn't sleep at night. Like he was really hard. So I just feel like it was like a really hard thing. and then Danny like told me at first, and he's like, I'm done being like, shame. He's like, I don't. Brynne Erickson (41:54) ⁓ shoot. Danny And Kelsie (42:05) I'd like, I'm not going to do the whole church thing, but then we like went to church and our ward was awesome. Like the craziest mix of people in the world, like, but they were all awesome. And like, everyone was just like very loving. I needed the support. Like we moved away from like my whole support system that I'd always had and I needed it and he knew that. And I feel like he was super supportive. and then yeah, like the longer that we were there, like, just feel like. We, cause like, I don't know if we would necessarily fight, but like I would ask lots of questions to Danny. Cause I just like, I'd go to church and I just like, I felt like I knew a lot of the things and I felt just so strong that like this was the right thing. And so I just wanted to understand. was just like, I just need to know like why you feel these things and like what you think about these things. Because to me, it just didn't make sense. So I don't know. We like had lots of conversations. and a lot of them were like, were hard things for me to hear. Like things like his answers were not what I wanted. And it was like, it was hard cause we now had three kids and shortly after we were pregnant with our fourth. and I just felt like at one point, like I feel like not by accident, but I just wanted to have, was like, we're going to have one more room and then we're going to be done. even still, we're, that's what we're supposed to do. Yep. Brynne Erickson (43:08) Yeah. Mm-hmm. You Danny And Kelsie (43:36) Yeah, even with all of his thoughts, was that still like you're supposed to have kids. But ⁓ I just remember just like at one point, like it's just like, are we going to keep doing this? Like, can we make this work where we feel so differently about the church at this point? Because even though he's supportive and stuff, like it was scary. Like it's scary to go to the temple by yourself. Brynne Erickson (43:39) so interesting. Mm-hmm. What does this mean for my family? Danny And Kelsie (44:03) to think that it was, yeah, and it's just like, put all the pressure on me to like have prayers, to do all the things that you're supposed to do, to make sure, cause like, if I didn't want to go to church, it wasn't like Danny was going to go to church, like at that time. Yep. So just like a lot of pressure. So I feel like we would have those conversations of just like, are we going to like stick this out together? Brynne Erickson (44:19) You had to save your family, right Kelsey? Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (44:34) And I feel like we both like decided together, like that this is what we wanted. We loved each other and that that didn't matter. Like we actually made that choice while we were in Colorado. And I feel like Colorado for me, like it was really hard at first to be away from family and stuff, but I also like didn't always have their voices in my head. ⁓ Just constantly pointing out the negative. Brynne Erickson (44:42) Awesome. Danny And Kelsie (45:02) of what that could look like. ⁓ before, when we lived with Danny's parents, when she found out like Danny was drinking, which kind of brought up, cause I don't feel like they really knew up until your mom found out that you'd been drinking. ⁓ they like it, just all this stuff came out about his thoughts on the church and everything. But because we lived with them and Danny would go to work like within a couple of days of that revelation coming like his mom's reaction to like response to me was if this was my husband, I would threaten him with divorce. Like first time like we like talked about it, just the two of us like face to face was just like, yeah, like if it was my spouse, like I would say like I'm divorcing you or you're changing like ultimatum. ⁓ but I feel like I got that a lot from like my sister said really similar stuff. I'd always get like, I don't know. Brynne Erickson (45:38) Mmm. Danny And Kelsie (45:58) Like what I do if I was in your situation is just always just like almost like I was crazy for like staying with them. Like my response should, I'm like, we have like three kids together. Like I guess at the time I was pregnant with the third, but I'm just like, everyone's like almost telling me like to walk away. I'm like, this is someone I've been married to for like what? Yeah. Brynne Erickson (46:18) That was such an automatic response though to that scenario, right? At the time. Danny And Kelsie (46:23) And that's like what everyone was telling me. So then we moved to Colorado and it was hard, but then we were just around different people. They saw Danny for who he was versus like this person leaving the church. And it's not like we like announced to everybody, like everyone didn't know. And probably like most people were just like, ⁓ they're just an active family. Like, cause he would show up. But, I just feel like, yeah, like. I was just able to like step back and like decide for myself instead of everyone else's input. Just be like, you shouldn't put up with this. Like, cause, and then I was just through that, like I just started to reframe, ⁓ Danny. Like he really hadn't changed. I was just able to like start framing him outside of church, all the positive qualities that he still had that I used to just like state them through the lens of the church, but just, yeah, again, stepping away from everyone else. I was able to just like see him for who he's still was. Like he really did not change. And he was still the person I wanted to be. He is still the dad to our kids. want him to be. So, so yeah, like moving to Colorado, like it was just good for us so that I could decide without everyone and giving their opinions all the time. ⁓ once family found out and shared with them, guess. one thing we talked about too. is like when our family was saying all those things like, you just need a divorce in. I would tell them, you know, get a new husband or whatever. And it was interesting because we talked about it and it's like, doesn't the church teach that families are supposed to be together forever? And it was just like, okay, well if that's the teaching, why is everybody saying like, The first problem is just like, oh, up your family. um, and so it, you know, since we've had more time to think about that and, know, cause at the time it wasn't, we thought about that, but like now it's like even more so like why, if, if that is the belief and the teaching and Brynne Erickson (48:23) Great question. Danny And Kelsie (48:48) we are in the situation that we were in, like why wouldn't the church want to do everything they could to try to help me, for example, you know, like come back or feel more welcome or whatever it is, like, like why wouldn't they want to try to save this family and this marriage if the belief is eternal, you know, eternity and So that was one thing that we thought was. So, but yeah, and I feel like with all that in mind, so I felt like I couldn't ever share or talk to family necessarily about those things anymore because I just felt like it was really negative and that's like, just like, didn't want that response anymore. And so I feel like at that time, like I was just like, I needed like, I didn't know anybody that like. wasn't like a mixed faith marriage or, ⁓ that like was experiencing what I did. Like I just like nobody in real life. So I started like, kind of looking things up and I found like some podcasts and I found, ⁓ some people like on Instagram, ⁓ that were in mixed faith marriages. ⁓ that just kind of, it just kind of had that community and like seeing how they responded and how they did things. Cause I was just like, I needed people that like, feel like this can work because that's what I wanted to happen. I wanted to make things work and I didn't feel like that's like the support and the direction that anyone in like in my actual life was like pushing me towards like either they didn't know what was going on and were oblivious or anyone that did know they're just like the opposite of like what I was needing them to like respond. So, so anyway, like I started Brynne Erickson (50:18) Yeah. you Danny And Kelsie (50:44) following some different people and listening to different things. And I feel like that's, was kind of my start with my downfall, we'll say as well, just because like it opened my eyes and then a couple people that were like full in the church. kind of watched their journeys ⁓ over time. Like they would share all this stuff and like all the church things and how they were making their mixed faith marriages work. But then I just saw. Brynne Erickson (50:50) Mmm. Danny And Kelsie (51:15) their like faith journeys happen. And because I had spent so much time like interacting with like their, like the podcasts and different things, like I feel like I knew where they were at and stuff. And so I was just like, how can you question? Like, I know you were, were like, I felt like they were kind of like my, I don't know. the word I'm looking for, but like, was just like, I can see like the testimony you had and the faith that you had and they were all in like I, I was. so then for them to like, kind of go that other direction, I feel like it just made me just like, wonder. was just like, what happened? What did you find out? Like what's like changed your mind? And some people like share a lot online. Some people don't, but I feel like, I just kind of started looking into things too, like just say comment on things. And I was just like, Oh, I've never heard that. Like, what, like, what is this? And so I feel like just over time, I started to have little cracks, but at the same time, I was just like, but I'm like the last one for our family. Like if I leave and Danny leaves, like our kids are too young to like carry this on. So I feel like I kind of put some stuff to the side. Um, so I was just like, Oh, I can just be kind of nuanced. Like. don't have to agree with everything that I feel like I was taught and that the church necessarily teaches. Like I started to kind of just find my own way. And for a long time, like for years, I feel like I made that work. I mean, Danny would talk, like, I feel like we talked so much about church things and Danny would answer my questions when I come to him and be like, did you know this? Like, but we just like talk all the time about different things. And I just like kind of found my own way to make. the church work in my mind and things that didn't work. was just like, I'm just not going to have that be part of what I believe. so, but I think, ⁓ so we lived in Colorado and then we moved back. And I think a lot of people that like our family, especially like they, I don't think they realize like, like how much we had grown. ⁓ And I think in their minds, it was just like changed and probably changed for the negative. But I just started to get kind of those negative comments again. ⁓ and one thing I always tell Danny is I was like, I just got pity all the time and nobody wants to be pitied. And it's just like, and I talked to him and I talked to him for like seeking understanding. And all I'd ever get back was pity. Like, I'm so sorry that your husband sucks. Like, and I just like, no, like you don't get it. Brynne Erickson (53:49) Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (54:04) I have an awesome husband, like, I have an awesome marriage. And the funny thing is some of the people sharing those opinions and like expressing the pity, which I don't know whether they meant to express that or not, but that's definitely why I took it. But I'm, they're also ones that like, I knew a lot of their like struggles within their own marriages. And, and I was just like, how are you pitting my like really good marriage that we've like worked really hard at when I know like. Brynne Erickson (54:15) Yeah. Internalized it, Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (54:33) that your marriage is not great and that you guys like have a long ways to go in my opinion, like from what I could see and what they had shared. One person literally said, like the only reason I'm still married is because of the church. yeah. it's like. that to me, the only reason why they're still married is because they made that commitment. And that's like their worldview of the church. And I was just like, and here you are pitting me. I was like, we did have some rough. Brynne Erickson (54:48) ⁓ wow. you you Danny And Kelsie (55:03) years and had to vote. again, like I felt like we decided and we came out stronger on the other side. So I was just getting so much pity. And then, ⁓ we moved to our home up here in Nibley and, ⁓ and I have awesome neighbors. I actually, we actually have like an awesome ward that we were going to, like lots of friends. But again, anytime, like, and again, I'm not one to like announce to everyone, Danny was still going to church with us being super supportive. ⁓ And I wasn't like, was like announcing to everyone, but anytime I felt like I would open up and share, like all I got was pity. And yeah, like, I just felt like the more I got that, was just like, I just kind of continued to open those cracks and just be like, like, I feel like I started to see the pity that I would give to other people that were different from me. ⁓ outside the church or living a different lifestyle than me. And I was just like, I don't like people don't need pity. Like they need compassion. They need empathy, but pity, like I was like, no one needs pity. It's like pity is not like going to help anybody. And I just like felt it for myself. But then I started to like see just other people that are affected the same way, I guess. Brynne Erickson (56:18) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've had few pity experiences and they've been more recent and it just felt so different, but I recognized it. It was very interesting. I was like, wait, I feel, why do I feel inferior in this moment? Danny And Kelsie (56:36) Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, was actually like, because I knew like that, I've always told Danny like pity is what drove me to feel the way I do. And so I was just looking it up and like, comes from a place of like someone looking down on you. Like that is part of pity. Like, cause like different things and you'll fit and like you say, you feel it, but like if you feel compassion or empathy, those are not like I'm looking down on you and feeling bad. for you being where you are versus where I am. Like they put you down and I felt it over and over again. And like, just, and I feel like every time it was like, I'm trying to like share with you. Cause I want you to understand not because I want you to like look down on me or on my situation. And I felt like the more I tried to like let someone know, like, and I could like, Brynne Erickson (57:22) interesting. Danny And Kelsie (57:42) directly be like, no, like I am not sad about my marriage. I'm not sad that I'm married to Danny. I'm not sad that I'm in a mixed marriage. I was like, I feel like it's made me a better person. Like it's given me more compassion and more like of these good qualities. And so it's just like, like, I just felt like people couldn't see me like as it just being different even like, and maybe like you don't understand, but it was always looked down on. And I just, that was. Brynne Erickson (57:45) Great. Danny And Kelsie (58:12) kind of the end for me is just like, because again, it, I just started to be like, do I do this to other people that are different? ⁓ do I look down on them and feel bad for them versus, ⁓ just seeing them as different and that their situation may be different and that they don't feel bad that they are where they are and that they like who they are and they like their life. And I just feel like that's kind of where. that all started for me and just kind of opened the door even more that I kind of had been going, like, again, like I felt like I was, I was like, can be nuanced forever. thought I could, but I felt like ⁓ the church definitely kind of teaches people to feel bad. Cause it's just like, like even think about missionaries go out on missions. It they're just like, you might have. part of the truth, we have the whole truth. Like we have it all and we feel bad that you don't have it all. I don't know. Sorry, that was really long rant. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (59:19) It was great. It was perfect and meaningful and it gives me things to think about. Obviously no one wants you to feel. It's not like everyone's like, I want her to feel awful and feel bad and feel inferior and feel, you know, like it's, that's never anyone's intent. At least I, I choose to believe, right? But ⁓ I think it's so different. Danny And Kelsie (59:39) All right. All right. No, I agree. Brynne Erickson (59:47) At least for me, once I realized that my way isn't the one right way, it opened up like this huge judge-free aspect of my life. And I was like, I don't agree with your way, but it doesn't mean it has to be wrong. Like it's not for me, but it can be for you. And I'm okay with that. So I can end. Danny And Kelsie (1:00:11) Mm-hmm. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (1:00:16) Yeah, pity is interesting and it does not feel good. And so I can see how that adding up would get really overwhelming. Danny And Kelsie (1:00:20) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (1:00:26) and hard. So have both of you pretty much distanced yourselves. You don't go very much anymore, if at all. Danny And Kelsie (1:00:36) Yeah, for me, so part of my journey, I guess, is for a few years, even when we were in Colorado, like I just wanted to. take my name off the records, you know, and be done. And it was like, I don't know, whatever. But last year, so it's been a year now that like, I took my name off and I felt like for me, like, cause that's not what everybody needs or wants to do or should do even you could argue, you know, but like, for me, was definitely one of those things that, I felt like I needed to do and not even to like make a big statement and go out and just tell everybody like I've done this, you know, but. For me, I didn't want to be associated with the church. I didn't want to be a number, ⁓ counted as one of their members because I didn't believe what they taught. ⁓ But also I feel like growing up and being baptized, for example, when you're baptized at eight, you don't really have a choice. You, however you want to frame it, like you kind of have a choice or your parents, yeah, it's tradition. Like they ask you, do you want to get baptized? And it's like, of course the answer is yes. Like what are you going to say? No. And if you do say no, like they'll just talk into it. Like you're like, you're, you kidding me? Like barely know how to put on your pants the right way. And so. Brynne Erickson (1:02:13) tradition. Danny And Kelsie (1:02:37) So like for me, I always felt, or so for example, on my mission, we'd talk about our baptisms as missionaries and I had companions that they'd be like, it was the most spiritual thing and all this stuff. And I was just like, I don't remember mine at all. Like I just remember I got a sweet duffel bag from one of my family. You know, it was awesome. And that's it. was like, but so part of it was, Brynne Erickson (1:02:57) All right. Danny And Kelsie (1:03:08) Like if I want to do this and decide that I want to believe in this religion, like then I will decide and I will be baptized again, you know. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (1:03:13) Yeah. Like your convert companions, right? Who conscientiously made the choice and were committed and had a great experience. Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (1:03:30) Yeah, so part of it was, you know, if I do decide to pursue religion again one day, like I will decide to be baptized. But again, part of it was like I didn't want to be and don't want to be associated with, you know, or considered a member of the church because I just don't. I don't believe in the things that are taught. So that's where I'm at. Brynne Erickson (1:04:01) Thanks Jenny. Danny And Kelsie (1:04:05) And I guess I'm still technically a member, ⁓ have chosen to not attend right now and don't see myself going back. But I also like having everyone's phone numbers in my neighborhood. So, I have plates. The kids. Although I don't even need the numbers. Danny's the one that always does all that stuff. So, but. Brynne Erickson (1:04:23) it does come in handy. you I love that you guys have been on this journey together and you guys have given grace and permission to each other to see who you can become and do it together. And what a great example to your boys that will be. It'll be interesting to see what choice they make, huh? Danny And Kelsie (1:04:52) and that's that's hope because even we've talked about like they want to go to church and they've even asked I mean even just a week or two ago One of our boys asked like so are we are we Mormon? That's like I mean, I guess technically you guys are and I always tried to tell him we talked about that when we were When Kelsey was more nuanced and believing and I wasn't you know Our kids would ask questions or we would talk to him and it would be like well Brynne Erickson (1:05:01) Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (1:05:20) Like, I believe this. Like, what do you believe? And then Kelsey would say what she believes and it's like, but what do you believe? And like, what do you want to believe, you know? Or what do you think about it? And... Or do you have questions? Like, we wanted to put it kind of back in their court and not necessarily direct them based on how we feel about things. which I know, like they're in our home and we'll have like a direct influence because obviously, like we're not going to church and... Brynne Erickson (1:05:40) Hmm. Danny And Kelsie (1:05:47) That automatically influences them in one way, but like that's one of our goals is to not just be like, this is what we think. So that's what you should think. Like we want to be like, this is what we think. This is why, like, what are your thoughts on that? Or do you have questions? Like, I don't know. That's what other people believe. We have some neighbors that are Jehovah's witnesses and, ⁓ Brynne Erickson (1:05:49) Mm-hmm. Danny And Kelsie (1:06:16) Like they've asked about that and we've talked to them like, oh, this is what, know, I'm not that I'm an expert, but little that we know is like this, believe in. like even outside religion too, like, feel like that's kind of like what we are trying to do. Like obviously not perfect, but just like, this is what we do, but this is what they do. Like, what do you think about things? I don't know. LGBTQ. Brynne Erickson (1:06:18) awesome. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Danny And Kelsie (1:06:46) community, like we try to tell them like that's not, like we don't judge other people for what they choose to do. Like people make different decisions and. like whatever they decide, like whatever you think, good or bad, like it doesn't really matter. You know, people are just different and it's okay. It's okay to be different. To be different. Like it's not a bad thing. And... And with that too, it's... If they are different, like we are kind and we can be supportive and like you don't have to agree on everything to be... Brynne Erickson (1:07:27) Right. Danny And Kelsie (1:07:28) like a kind, compassionate person. Brynne Erickson (1:07:32) Okay, awesome. Your boys are still little, your oldest will be, it's preteen here soon. Yeah. Danny And Kelsie (1:07:38) Yeah, almost 11. Yeah, he started here. Brynne Erickson (1:07:43) Okay, very cool. So are there any beliefs or practices that you've held on to from the LDS faith? Or not really? Danny And Kelsie (1:07:54) Well, honestly, like, we were talking about this recently. I feel like if I had to sum up a lot of the reasons I left the church and everything, I think I could sum it up as, like, I did listen in church, you know, and I did believe, and I did read my scriptures, and I listened to what I was taught about Jesus, specifically. you know, and how he acted and the things that he would do and say and help people and, be so loving and compassionate. And I feel like I am where I'm at are because of those views, like, because that's how I want to treat people and how I want to view the world and, ⁓ And I'm not I don't want to be misconstrued and like I don't think that every LDS member that does believe like doesn't act like Jesus, you know, or doesn't have compassion or you know things like that, but For me, I didn't receive that as much as I feel like I should have. And so one of the reasons I am not part of the church is because of the teachings of the church, you know, because I want to emulate Jesus whether he's a real, was a real person or not. Like he stood for a lot of good things. But also, like it's also just not the whole picture. I mean, there's a podcast that we really liked called Secular Buddhism that just talks about a lot of Buddhist principles and perspectives. And it's just been a really interesting and honestly enlightening way to view the world, you know? that's, for example, that's one of the things that They talked about things not being good and bad and goes into more explanation, but it's like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And a lot of problems arise from us believing that something is good and something is bad. Yeah, and it's not quite so cut and dry. yeah, so I guess I'd sum it up, I'd say there's still a lot of. Brynne Erickson (1:10:13) extremes. Danny And Kelsie (1:10:26) Like definitely, I would even argue we teach our kids what Jesus teaches, you know, and what he stands for. I would even say like, I want all of our kids to act like Jesus and I would like to act like Jesus, you know, yeah, toward people. ⁓ but I also don't feel like that's the only way or the only thing and that there are other Brynne Erickson (1:10:41) in the way that you view him. Danny And Kelsie (1:10:54) other things that also are helpful and that enhance our I don't know if religiosity or spirituality, you know, but. Brynne Erickson (1:11:05) Anything you want to add, Kelsey? Danny And Kelsie (1:11:08) yeah, like I'm with Danny, like, I don't feel like our belief is the same, like as it was when we were going to church and maybe not the same views, but I feel like, I don't know. I just feel like there is good to be found everywhere and I want to be able to see that and view that and yeah, just like the compassion and empathy and seeing that people. have different perspectives. And it's okay that people have different perspectives. Brynne Erickson (1:11:38) Love it. There can be a lot of good in this world in different ways. Danny And Kelsie (1:11:47) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Brynne Erickson (1:11:47) Right? lot of helpfulness. I use the word helpful more than good these days. And yeah, I've liked the like, cause I'm kind of with you. I'm like, well, what is good? Is it good enough? Like, what are the degrees of good? And so the word helpful came to my mind So my kids, I'm like helpful and kind. We're trying to be helpful and kind. Danny And Kelsie (1:11:53) Yeah. Yeah. That's a one. Yeah. Bye. Brynne Erickson (1:12:14) Because again, like in your own mind, it's, mom wants me to be good. Well, how do I like, I think I'm doing a good job. Does she think I'm doing a good job? And I was like, I don't want us to be confusing. And obviously helpful can get into that category too. But I don't know, for some reason for me, helpful has been a more useful word than do good, be good. So. Danny And Kelsie (1:12:35) Yeah. Less connotation of extremes. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (1:12:39) Yeah, maybe. Yeah, there you go. Awesome. So Jesus guides you. You're liking Buddhist principles. That's awesome. Is there anything else that guides you today? Danny And Kelsie (1:12:52) I mean, we were in the church for decades and learned a lot and there, there are a lot of good things ⁓ that come from religion. ⁓ But I guess for me, I... try to keep what I think I guess are the good parts, the helpful parts, and just kind of not worry about the other stuff. Brynne Erickson (1:13:23) Okay, awesome. And then before we head out, what's something that you each wish everyone knew, felt, or believed? Danny And Kelsie (1:13:34) So I think the main thing that I thought with that is just like curiosity. So in, it was like a communications class that I was taking in school. One of the first classes, like one of the first times I went to the class, they had us do this exercise and we had to think of someone that like we really like. And then I don't even remember the specific questions, but then they just started like asking all these questions about this person. ⁓ And we were just like thinking this out in our minds. Some of them were just, yeah, it's just like, think of like your best friend and like think of all these things. ⁓ And the start of the questions were like, just like, kind of like they're things that they like, something that they've struggled with, like just like think of different things that you know about them. ⁓ And then so we do all this and like, and it's, again, this was just about someone that you really liked, really loved, like just someone that you knew and then. They're like, okay, now think of someone that just bugs you, like that you just don't like to be around that you really don't like. And then they started asking all these questions again. It's just like, what's something that they struggled with in their life? What's like their favorite color? What's their favorite food? And for me, like I couldn't answer any of those things about that person that bugged me. And the whole point behind that lesson was just like, The more you know about someone, the more compassion, the more space you give them, the more understanding that maybe like they do these things for this reason. Because that's saying like people can do things that you that bug you. But it's just like if you know the backstory or you know more about them, it's just like, ⁓ I get why they do those things. ⁓ So I just think like. being curious and getting to know people and to know why they did things or why they think the way they do. I just think asking questions and giving people room to express themselves and do the things. And you have to do that in a way that is non-judgmental because if not, people aren't going to share with you. ⁓ And so I just feel like being curious and giving people space to be who they are. ⁓ And even if they answer and you feel differently, like you have to be able to know how to respond. But anyway, I feel like just curiosity and just wanting to get to know people. And obviously you can't do that to everyone the world and you're going to have people that bug you. But you have to know that the reason why they bug you and stuff is not because of them. It's your own problem and your own lack of understanding of that person because... So like people feel that way about you too and you're not going to know everybody. feel like just being able to like step back and be like, yeah, I don't know you. So the things that you're doing like bug me because I don't know you well enough, if that makes sense. So. Brynne Erickson (1:16:30) Yeah, curiosity, it's one of my favorite words. Thank you, Kelsey. Okay, Danny, what do think? Danny And Kelsie (1:16:36) Yeah, mine's similar. Like I would say, like having understanding and trying to understand, which is really similar. Cause I feel like a lot of times, I mean, cause I've even done it in my own life. You know, someone's telling you something and you kind of have an agenda and you know, you're listening to them, but you're listening in the way of... I'm gonna tell them this, or this is what they need to hear, or you know. But again, if you take the good and bad, and wrong out of it, and you're just listening to understand, and actually want to understand, I feel like that that is one of most helpful things. We heard a quote, I don't know it perfectly, I mean, it essentially said like, good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things. And it's like kind of a ⁓ broad statement. you know, obviously again, like I don't think people that believe in religion are bad. necessarily but I don't I feel like more often than not things like religion get in the way of people being good ⁓ like you can be good without Brynne Erickson (1:18:11) interesting thought. Danny And Kelsie (1:18:14) having some church or some whatever it is that you go to every week, every, you know, think about all the time. not that even everybody needs to question, but at some level, know, like, maybe, like, is this thing impeding my life, where I could be? But again, that just kind of goes back to understanding and trying to understand others. Brynne Erickson (1:18:56) than proving a point. Yeah. Well, awesome. Thank you so much, you guys, for being your authentic, loving, sharing selves. I really appreciate it. And for saying what was on your mind and hearts and your awesome journeys with us. Danny And Kelsie (1:18:58) Yeah. Thanks Brynn. Thanks for asking questions because I feel like I don't get that all the time. It's kind nice to have someone that wants to know. Brynne Erickson (1:19:16) Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah. Yeah, so often we take our, we just live our journeys, right? And then we don't often get to reflect back on them and then share what we've learned and who we've become. And it, it's kind of cool to look back at that process. So thank you for sharing it with us. You guys are awesome. Okay. See ya. Danny And Kelsie (1:19:43) Thanks, Ren. All right, thanks.