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Why an Evangelical Pastor Walked Away | Brian Recker · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and joining me today I'm so excited. Joining me from Raleigh, North Carolina is none other than Brian Recker. Brian, welcome to the studio today. brian recker: Hey Leigh, thanks for having me. Leigh/@followtheleighder: my gosh. Well, if you've been living under a rock and you haven't been following Brian for the last couple of years, Brian is a former ex-evangelical pastor, deconstructed, and as I've been watching, is now commanding a platform and audience larger than what he did originally. That deconstruction is is part of how he communicates not only with his own community but with the outside world. He has written beautiful very you've been very very focused on the theology of hell which we'll get into in in just a bit. but you were also a marine you served in the military and and y you had kids you have been a part of the evangelical world took it as far as the road would take you in your journey like I said and and then it led to deconstruction and now this massive platform for you. Talk to us a little bit, Brian, if you could, all ab about growing up. What was your childhood like? what was it like to, you know, be inspired to go into evangelical ministry, the Marines? that's a was that kind brian recker: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: of like a a a like a nice box and plan given to you? brian recker: Sure, sure. And yeah, I mean, I had a weird childhood, and it's definitely connected to all of what came later and what I'm doing now. so my dad is an independent fundamental Baptist pastor, still is. My parents met at Bob Jones University, which is one of the most conservative fundamentalist schools out there. Like just for kind of perspective, Liberty University, we thought we thought that they were like liberal compromisers, basically. At Bob Jones because they, you know, they could do things that we couldn't do. We had a lot of rules, not only like no alcohol, but like I I couldn't even hold a girl's hand, no rock and roll music of any kind to include CCM, like not even contemporary Christian music. Like Chris Tomlin was too, too extreme for for the way I was raised. And so that was pretty much it in my household. I was homeschooled, so super sheltered upbringing. we listened to Rush Limbaugh for social studies in my homeschool curriculum. So also in addition to our extreme religious conservatism, that was accompanied with an extreme political conservatism. And so I was raised believing that really Democrats were evil, especially socialists, forget about it. That was like the most evil thing you could possibly be. and So definitely raised with the inherent belief in American goodness and the goodness of the American military. the ideal that that America needed to have the largest military was something that I was raised believing. The idea that peace would come through strength and military dominance was was an idea that I was raised believing. And so all of those things were just kind of The fundamental and and all of that is connected obviously to Christian nationalism. So I was raised as a Christian nationalist, absolutely. and as a pastor's kid. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Well and was that I mean, talk about heavy as the head that wears the crown. I mean, you're the pastor's kid. That's a lot. You're seeing a lot. you're you're in a position of, you know, constantly being around a church, theology, the institution, and then of course going right into the Marines. Was that something around you, meter military or veteran? brian recker: No. So actually, no, there was not a lot of I didn't have a lot of military influences in my life other than just the idea that this was an innately good thing. I I was, like you said, the he about being a pastor's kid, definitely being asked a lot if I was gonna be a pastor like my dad. That was like a very common question. And actually as a kid, I didn't really want to be a pastor. I really struggled with the idea. I think even though I was a fundamentalist and that was the world that I knew, there was something a little unattractive about it to me. I've always been a creative person. I've always enjoyed the arts and I was always drawn even as a kid to television shows and movies that I wasn't supposed to be watching. pop culture stuff that I wasn't really supposed to be into was very like appealing to me. And there was something really small about the fundamentalist world that I was in. And so I I didn't really want to be a pastor. in fact, you know kind of connect to becoming evangelical. I in many ways becoming an evangelical pastor was my first movement of deconstruction, moving from fundamentalism to evangelicalism. And that sounds a little crazy because evangelicalism is obviously still seen as very conservative. But compared to what I grew up in, evangelicalism felt very spacious to me at the time. It it really was seen as a very progressive step for me to leave the fundamentalist world and become Become evangelical. And that's what happened really during and after college. I began to sort of leave fundamentalism behind. And that act alone kind of brought some disappointment to my parents. Like they were were sad that I was going to more contemporary churches, like churches that had rock bands and where the pastor would wear jeans and that sort of thing, as opposed to the King James only, you know, piano and hymn only kind of churches, fundamentalist churches that that I was raised in. and so that departure there was there was always a sense in which I couldn't keep my world quite that small. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, I don't even think you were born to play small. I just watching your your comments like, no, go for it, go, Brian. When so with these these playing small, where you're you're in Raleigh, North Carolina now. Is that where you're born and raised? brian recker: No, actually, so I'm from Queens, New York. My dad is he's planted three fundamental Baptist churches in New York City, in Brooklyn, Queens, and in Manhattan, where he pastors now. And so I I made it to North Carolina when I joined the Marine Corps. So how that happened was I I was at Bob Jones University. I had not wanted to do ministry. I was actually a marketing major. and really I like I said, the fundamentalism was not appealing to me. And it was even worse at Bob Jones. You know, at least growing up, I loved my dad. And my dad is a very sincere person. I have deep disagreements with my dad about theology, about politics, about what how we see the world. But my dad is not a bad faith person. He really, he's a true believer. He really believes that that what he believes is for the good of the world. he really believes that if people don't embrace The gospel message that he preaches, that they're gonna die and go to hell. And he feels that deeply. he carries that, you know. and so that that was the world I grew up in. At Bob Jones, though, I encountered a ton of hypocrisy. And it made it even really heightened for me that this was an ugly world that I didn't want to be a part of. And I had friends actually that abandoned Christianity because you during during their time at Bob Jones University, because of that world being such an ugly view of of Christianity. But I did fall in with some friends that were evangelical that happened to be a Bob Jones, but that had a more spacious view of Christianity than Bob Jones's fundamentalism. And I began reading a lot of evangelical books by, for instance, John Piper, Tim Keller, kind of the folks from the gospel coalition world. And now I look at that and I have deep disagreements with people from that world. But at the time, it felt again like very life-giving to me that I could be more engaged in the world. Well you I I tell people sometimes when they're they're like curious, what's the difference between evangelicalism and fundamentalism? And the difference is not primarily theological. The difference primarily is vibes. and the di the the primary vibe shift is from being engaged in culture. evangelicalism is very culturally engaged. They want to transform culture. Fundamentalists really have withdrawn from culture. They're very cloistered. So Bob Jones was, we called it the bubble. and it very much felt like you were in a bubble. And so being exposed to these evangelical voices, it felt again like my world was growing. and when I was introduced to that, all of a sudden that that question that had come to me my whole life, do you want to be a pastor like your dad? The answer had always been no. But when I got a vision for a more culturally engaged, culturally savvy version of that. All of a sudden I felt the desire to maybe engage in that. It was the wor you know, I was very comfortable in the church world. That was what I had always known. And I also really did love Jesus. I at that point had been a Bible guy throughout my life. And I had never I had never really questioned my belief in Jesus and my love for Jesus. But I I didn't have a vision for what it could look like to do ministry. But at that point, when I began to be exposed to some of these evangelical voices, I could really see myself. I could see myself doing that. but I was smart enough to know that a sheltered homeschooled kid who then went to the bubble of Bob Jones University didn't really need to then graduate and be a pastor. Like I didn't know shit about shit. I was very sheltered. I didn't know about the world. and so I I really did feel like I needed some more life experience and job experience. And I stumbled you know during like a job fair at Bob Jones University. I got into a conversation with a Marine selection officer who told me about the officer program. And for whatever reason, it connected with me in that moment. And I do have some thoughts about that. Cause like I said, I didn't know any really military people growing up, but I think I knew that it would impress my dad. I I knew that it would be something that would be loved and welcomed by the culture that I was in. And Another part of it too is that I've always had an interesting relationship with masculinity. I have, as a creative person, always kind of dressed. I mean, I don't think I'm the most flamboyant dresser, but I got called a metrosexual in college. And I was kind of seen as somebody who didn't always fit the mold for what a conservative man was supposed to look and dress and act like. And there was some sense in which I wanted to prove my manhood, I think, as a young college guy. And so and and knowing that I lived in a culture that really believed that the military was like the most noble thing you could do. And also it was 2008 and there was a financial crisis and the job market wasn't great. And so for all those reasons, it seemed like a good idea to join up with the Marine Corps after college. And so I became a Marine officer after college to the surprise of everyone. Everybody was like, Brian, a Marine. Like I just don't come across as this incredibly militant person. But I think I knew that and I wanted to challenge that in some way. because I did have some insecurity, I think, a around how I was perceived in my masculinity. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Masc yes, masculinity I could also imagine you know, going from if you're on if you're riding this this spectrum wave, if you will, and you're going from fundamentalist to ex ev to to evangelical, I would imagine that the military promised structure. Like and it it and and that was even kind of my appeal. I remember being 22 years old and being like, you know what? I could like join this and not think. And and and brian recker: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and and I could have a job and like their structure that like the world is very big and scary. And I wasn't even evangelical. Like I I just like it it there's There's so much to be said about the institutional security and the promises of that, even if you don't know what the military is once it looks like, once you're in it. But like from the outside, whether you're, you know, really you're going, you're challenging your own masculine narrative or you're you're looking for another thing that will contain you and and it it's I I'm really curious. brian recker: That's absolutely part of it. I I had been, like I said, homeschooled. So my life was very structured. At Bob Jones, they told you, I mean, the rule book was like this thick that everything was ordered. You couldn't be late to class even, you know, you would boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, ball by the book. So there was a sense in which going out into the world felt scary to me. And so this was like an approved pathway to become, you know, have leadership as an officer. gain job experience, get a stable career, but also have that kind of structure and really have the seal of approval by the whole conservative world that I was a part of. you know, I it was a way for me to it it is a really weird thing because in fundamentalism, we were so concerned with worldliness. Everything was about what was worldly, like literally like rock music was worldly. And yet for whatever reason, warmongering wasn't perceived as worldly. Really odd, actually, because in in my reading of the Bible now, that's actually one of the main things I think that term is talking about. When we're talking about sort of the pattern of this world, I think we're talking about a pattern of domination and using violence to especially imperial domination. And and really the American war machine, I think, in many ways is like the epitome of what the Bible is getting at when it's talking about be not conformed to the pattern of this world. And yet that was one of the approved ways in which I could engage in the world and really still have kind of again the approval of my family of origin and the the sort of church environment that that I was a part of. and so I would not join now. I've really my deconstruction Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. brian recker: at that time had not gone as far as deconstructing American military dominance. but I I do, I don't really have regrets. I learned a lot from that experience. And, you know, I think that. I every part of it from being in fundamentalism to being in the military to being in evangelicalism now serves the perspective that I have now on the Leigh/@followtheleighder: So thankful for it. I'm I'm actually this is particularly, you know, I want to flesh this out just a little bit more and then we'll we'll we'll go into theology and other things. But this idea of coming from a world that is very fundamentalist, like you reject a lot of things. yes, you expand it by going into evangelicalism. but I would imagine. There was also in a like, yes, you thought you were getting the approval of your your conservative Christian community. But the military is also in its own way, and I've talked to other evangelical chaplains about this, it's the window that they feel like they can be, quote, in the world or in a pluralistic environment, and it still feels safe. Like there was like an a like an a a evangelical chaplain was telling me, I wanted to get out of my small town and go serve in the military, even though I'm conservative and you know, but I wanted to be surrounded by pluralistic people. And that's why I'm against Christian nationalism as an evangelical chaplain, because this is not what it you know, like he and it was a really interesting like motivation if like he saw the military as a way to invite diversity into his life. And I thought that was really familiar. It it sounds kind of like what you're talking about, like these little acts of, I don't know, rebellion or intentional expansion because they're not finding it either in their home community or in the structure. Do you is is there some legitic legitimacy to that? Being curious about the world? brian recker: Absolutely. And I was, I did encounter a lot of diversity in the military. less so in the officer program. I would say the officer corps is very white and middle class. but you know, the Marines that I worked with that were especially on the enlisted side, I mean, tended to be racially and socially socioeconomically diverse. and that was really good for me actually to have those friendships and connections. outside of the the kind of people that were I was surrounded by in in my church and school growing up for sure. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Talk to me. We you've you've written a book all on on hell and the theology of hell, folks. Oof. If okay, I have listeners that are all across the spectrum on here. I have ex evangelicals who are very familiar with you, Brian. And I have some folks who are like, What how do people use hell as an insult? Like, I don't believe it, like w what I don't know anything about it for it to be scary. It's like, can you talk to us about what like discipline consequences and hell are looked like for you, Growing? Like what what did that what brian recker: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: role did that play? What did it mean? brian recker: Yeah, it's funny. I you know sometimes people are like, why hell? Like, why did you write about hell? I mean, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. brian recker: we we talked about all these different things and there's a lot that that could be that I could have written about in terms of my upbringing and the sort of philosophies and ideas that shaped me. But I found this one to be really, really central to to my spirituality. I have I have the book right here. I don't know if this is if it's video or just podcast, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Yeah, yeah. brian recker: but so the book is called Hell Bent. Hellbent, how the fear of hell holds Christians back from a spirituality of love. It's called Hellbent because what I really realized was that so much of my understanding of God, of understanding my understanding of Christianity, my understanding of who Jesus was, my understanding of what spirituality even meant or what it was for, was bent, was warped by hell, by punishment, by fear based thinking. When hell is a part of your equation and in fundamentalism, I was raised to believe from a very early age that I deserved to go to hell, that everybody by default deserved to go to hell. That's really the the basic traditional conservative Christian teaching. And many of us are exposed to this if you grow up in a conservative Christian home when you're very young. I was five or six years old when I was told really the same time that I learned about God, I learned about hell. And what I learned about God, the message that I received about God was that I was on the wrong side of God, that something needed to change about me. I needed to get saved. I needed to be born again. I needed to accept Jesus into my heart. If I didn't do that, then I was going to go to hell. That was going to be my default destination. So something was wrong with me. I deserved to go to hell. That's what people deserved. And so this shapes your understanding of human nature, of what people deserve, of what of how to think about others, of how to think about yourself. End of how to think about God. And so my real and and and that, of course, in the book, I talk about how Jesus, when Jesus talks about spirituality, he says that the very core, the very heart of of spirituality is to love God with your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. So to love God, to love your neighbor, and to love yourself is really what spirituality is all about. And I began to realize that my Punitive beliefs about hell were really robbing me of all three of those things. It was impossible to have a truly loving relationship with God if that love was built on a threat. Because how could I say that I've freely chosen a loving relationship with God if from the very beginning, when I first learned about God, the message was you better love God, or else God is going to punish you forever in hell? And how could I really love others when I actually needed to change others and save others to become like me and believe like me, or else they would go to hell? And how could I really love myself if what I believed ultimately about myself is that I was desperately wicked and I deserved to go to hell? And so this punitive belief was really wrapped up in every layer of my spirituality. And yet I didn't really know how to take it apart because hell was fundamental to Christian doctrine. if your listeners are Christians or if they've grown up Christian, They might understand this question. But one of the most frequent questions that I get when I tell people that I don't believe in a literal hell is they'll ask me, well, if there's no hell, why did Jesus die? If there's no hell, why is why does Jesus matter? If there's no hell, why be a Christian at all? Because for many Christians, Christianity is a message about going to heaven instead of hell. Jesus exists to die on the cross for your sins so that he can take your his your sins on him instead of you so that you don't have to be punished for your sins in hell. He's punished in your place. And it's all about really punishment avoidance, about hell avoidance. It's about the afterlife as opposed to a spirituality of love in this life for the sake of the world, for the sake of our neighbors. and I realized that this this afterlife focus, this punishment focus, Was really robbing me of a of a meaningful spirituality, a positive spirituality for this life, as opposed to just a negative spirituality in terms of what we're trying to avoid. and so for me, so much of my deconstruction was learning to see Jesus in a new way, not just as a token to believe in, to avoid a fiery fate in the afterlife, but What what not just about the death of Jesus, but about the life of Jesus? What about a person to imitate? What about a person whose l spirituality I can pattern my own spirituality after so that I might grow in love in this world right now? Not just what happens when I die, but but right now. And so so so much of my deconstruction has been rediscovering a version of Christianity that makes sense without hell. And I didn't have to make it up. I mean, there are so many incredible theologians throughout s the h centuries who have been universalists who have not believed in a a literal hell to include early church fathers. And so writing this book for me, I I didn't just I I wrote it for many of the people who are asking me questions all the time about like, hey, what is Christianity without hell? Who is Jesus without hell? But really I was writing it for a version of myself that was asking Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. brian recker: all of these questions as well. I I couldn't hold on to a Christianity that had punishment at the center. I want to hold on to a Christianity that has love at the center. And so that journey of rediscovering is what's really helped me hold on to Jesus. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's so beautiful. It is so beautiful. And folks, I I wanna know how you made what was I know that you were already on this trajectory, but were there a certain series of events that made you just be like, this something's gotta change? What did it look like to take the leap, I guess, quote unquote, across the aisle, if you will? brian recker: Yeah, I think there there definitely was a precipitating sort of event that kind of pushed me over the edge. I I think I could sum it up in two words. Donald Trump. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. brian recker: for me, my deconstruction was like I said, my first sort of deconstruction was going from fundamentalism to evangelicalism. And in evangelicalism, I really was quite comfortable there for a few years. I became a pastor. And I really did love my church community. and it wasn't until twenty fifteen that my rose-colored glasses started to shatter when Trump became the front runner of the Republican Party. And watching many people in my church line up behind him, watching my parents become very excited Trump supporters, I was I was surprised at the time. in my naivety, I I just didn't think that that was who we were. And that's what that's what I said at the time. I was like, this is not who we are. And I I just felt like it was a real betrayal of evangelical values. Now that that was did not cause me to leave immediately. Instead, it caused me to think, it caused me to experience a new perspective on the movement I was a part of that I loved. And it caused me to really fight for the heart and soul of that movement. From within. And so as a pastor, I began to preach more and more about neighbor love, about our need to care for immigrants, for example, and things like that, while really pushing back against what I perceived as this very fascist, natalist, Christian nationalist, hateful threat from within evangelicalism. But my journey from I would say 2015 to 2020 was transitioning from believing this is not who we are. To really coming to accept and realize that actually, yes, this is what the evangelical movement is. It's what the evangelical movement really has always been. and in in many ways, Trump, I began to see was not an aberration, but the natural culmination of what the e white evangelical movement in America has always wanted, that he was their guy. He was the guy that they were hoping for. And that that tells me what the soul of that movement really represents. Not to say every person within it, not to say that every person within it is that same way. 87% of white evangelicals voted for Donald Trump. And so not all of them voted for him. And all of the ones who did, many would say maybe they were holding their nose or that sort of thing while they voted for him. but nevertheless, I didn't see yard signs for Mitt Romney. I didn't see the level of enthusiasm. They were they were having Trump parades, boat parades in in my the small coastal town that I pastored in. down the creek, there were boat after boat with Trump flags hanging out. And then I would see on Facebook how many church members were posting from their boats with their Trump flags to include deacons and people on our hospitality teams. And I just realized that this this actually is what they want. This is their posture. and so there was kind of a a real sadness and a resignation that I came to where I realized that I didn't need to fight for this from within. I I could let it go. I could step outside of it. I don't need to because my presence within that movement was ultimately I think putting my stamp of approval on the movement and inviting other people into the movement. But I didn't want to do that. I I didn't think anybody should be in this. I think we needed to get out of this. And so ultimately, there was a real, I think, a battle in my own conscience for about five years until I finally put in my resignation at the end of 2020, with the COVID year being, I think, an opportunity to get some perspective on my life. you know, as a pastor, Sunday is always coming. It's really hard to actually be introspective about what you're doing and and if it's still what you should be doing. And also I was under a lot of institutional and relational pressure. All of my friends were my church friends. my it was my salary, it was my network of relationships, it was my educational background. At that point, I had done my master's degree in ministry and at an evangelical school. It was the world that I knew, it was the job that I knew, it was the job that I loved. I loved pastoring. I didn't have another vision for pastoring. So was very hard to just leave. but it I got to the point where I realized I needed to reconsider things. I didn't want to give my life to a movement that gave the world Donald Trump. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And and you can hear the heartbreak in your story of you watching them choose something, choose a path that that you vehemently disagree with. And and in your heart you you you double down and you you try to change it from the inside. You're like, okay, like I'll just I'll just I'll just make sure that my pulpit floats in this storm and I'll make sure that my flock is we're going this way. And I can only imagine I can only imagine how tough that that that heartbreak, that slow, and like you said, it was your your money, your financial security, it was your friends, your mentor. and and again, that Sunday is always coming. You've got and then tied into it is I don't yeah, I guess saviorism on the ego side of it, but you are responsible for people's spirituality too. Like walking away from being a pastor is It it's like it's a lot for people who've never understood what that's like. Like it there's a lot to it that when you finally get to walking away, it's been a significant earthquake. and and a lot of things are are broken. What did that what did that look like? That transition for you to to go through such grief? What did those years look like and what resources helped you? brian recker: Yeah, it was hard, definitely. I think the relational aspect is always the hardest. I you know, I'd walked through life with these people and I think leaving and becoming a a more authentic version of myself that was going to be more outspoken about things that I knew would challenge them was really scary because I knew that it would change the way that they saw me. And I think I think that's probably always the hardest part is like knowing that these people that looked up to you or that thought of you a certain way are going to think about you another way. So you you know, for me, the the a big moment was a couple of years after I quit when I became very public about my support and affirmation for LGBTQ people. That took me a while to be public about. simply because I knew that the backlash was going to be quite severe. I knew that all of those people that that is like a line in the sand issue for evangelicals where they say basically once you've crossed that line, that's when they'll call you a heretic. That's when they'll call you a non-believer. That's when they'll say that, you've lost the plot and they'll write you off completely. And there was something in me that was afraid for a little while of that feeling of being written off, of being called a backslider, an unbeliever, of having them say things like, I guess you were never a Christian to begin with. Right. Never even like questioning the authenticity of your entire ministry and entire spirituality. That was really, really scary for me. but I it it was also incredibly liberating. You know, all of those things breaking and shattering was painful, but that I think is also like a gift in some ways. I I think the only way sometimes to enter a different level of thinking, a different level of consciousness, a different. Perception of the world is the previous way has to stop working completely. It has to break. There is something painful about that transition, but that is also a liberating transition. And it it opens up a door into a deeper layer of authenticity and reality. and so I became more of myself. I never lost myself. I always became more of myself. And unfortunately, that involved the loss of relationships, but I've tried to maintain the posture that I am open to maintaining relationships with people. But often people just cannot, they they can't perceive that relationship continuing with me. but I also I will say this like Trump in many ways was the like precipitating thing that caused me to reevaluate. And I needed that because there were other things that I should have been re reevaluating and that I wasn't, that I was really, I think, unable to see clearly from within the movement. For for example, specifically LGBTQ issues. So I had not been, I was a part in evangelicalism almost completely, almost unanimously, to be evangelical is to be anti-gay in your theology. very, very few people would call themselves evangelical that would be affirming of of queer people. maybe there's a few out there, if you exist, like I'm curious about you, like tell me your story, but like that's Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. brian recker: tends to not be a thing. And within that world, that is seen as a litmus test of taking the faith seriously seriously. And so I was always uncomfortable with that. I never had like a predisposition in myself to be anti-gay or to be against queer people, but I did want to be faithful to God, faithful to the Bible, a faithful pastor, to be taken seriously as a pastor. And all of those things made me stay in that position. And I did not. Really I had blinders on on that on that issue. And it really took getting out from under the institutional pressure of the evangelical church and the relational and financial pressure and to get out from it. And it was really interesting and I would say even a little bit embarrassing that once I quit pastoring and I stepped out, it became very obvious to me very quickly that I absolutely wanted to affirm queer people and had no reason not to. And the only reason that I hadn't gotten there sooner was because I was an evangelical pastor. And I wasn't able to do that while I was an evangelical pastor. And so there was something really liberating about that. And so for the first year or so, about a year and a half, I did not speak publicly at all. After I stepped away, I quiet. I I was reading. I went back to school actually. I had already had a master's in ministry, but I went back to school for an MDiv and I was thinking about ministry from a maybe a new angle, but I didn't really say much publicly. It took me a while to get up my courage, but after about a year and a half, I I really came to this point of conviction that if I had been in a public position as a pastor, being non-affirming of of queer people, then it was very important for me to be public about my change of mind as an act of repentance. And I I do wish that more pastors who have this path would be more public in in that way. and so about yeah, about a year and a half after I quit, in the summer of I guess 2021 no twenty-two, I I put out a series of videos about why I believed Christians should affirm queer people. And that had a swift reaction from my community. That was the first time I was being public about that. And you know, my old church that I had been a pastor of took my sermons down, my eight and a half years of sermons down off of their website. They sent like a churchwide email about me. I got a bunch of messages from people kind of questioning my faith, questioning my relationship with God, asking me why I'm not a Christian anymore, and all that kinds of stuff. And that again felt bad, but it also felt like a band-aid that needed to be ripped off so that I could continue to move forward into authenticity. and I think what helped me get there was new friendships, especially with queer people, that I cared more about standing up for them and and being true to that relationship than I did standing up for people that I I I you know I wasn't really in relationship anymore with. And even though I didn't want them to think badly about me, I can't live for that for that opinion of others. And I would say every step of authenticity like that. Though it was scary and though it involved loss, there's never any regret when you do that because you always end up attracting people that are more true to where you're at now, that love you for who you are now and who you're becoming, as opposed to just who you were. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and and really the story arc of how you started this call talking about wanting to join the military as a as a form of masculine expression. When everything that I just heard you say, I was like, damn, that all took a lot of balls. Like posting videos like that, repenting out loud, like talking about standing in your masculine. And it's so funny that you were standing in your masculine at precisely quote, whatever that means. I know that sounds a little woo-woo, but like at precisely the moment where you were speaking against it and that and a power and and and and the whole it it's a very I mean you're you're it's it's you're a badass and and and you Tim Whitaker, April A. Joy, it's unless folks who understand what you you've come back from, it's just like, you left a church and it's like, no, they didn't just leave a church and go find a new one because You know, I it's it is so much bigger than that. And I I'm I'm I'm just like I guess brian recker: Yeah, so it's a total rebuilding. You you're leaving your world. And so there's a it's a really lonely process. and in my case, without getting into the details of it, but I I also got divorced a a year where where my wife and I separated a year about a year and a half after we de deconstructed and left the church. And that's really common actually in in talking to many deconstructing people. I think that often marriages that start with the presuppositions of fundamental Christianity and purity culture and you know the that particul that are built on that foundation of gender roles and that sort of thing that's built in that world very often through deconstruction the those are also deconstructed and reevaluated and often don't survive. And so that can only heighten the loneliness as well. So there's almost a total rebuilding that's required in many ways of your friend group, of your identity. And that can be really scary. It can be, you know, it can be really liberating, but there's a few years there where it does feel like going through hell, no doubt about it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and I've seen recently so we talk a lot about rapping the Bible and the flag. And I have my background in I was raised in disciples of Christ, progressive liberation theology. It's what my went for masters in. And liberation theology on the other side is heavily influenced by Marxism. I don't know enough about economic theory to get deep into the weeds on this, but I've also seen like a lot of things talking about you know, Jesus was a socialist, Jesus was a capitalist, Jesus was a Democrat, Jesus was a Republican. What is that now that you have seen the field on so many different sides, like what is your kind of stance on those kinds of claims and how does that impact your worldview? brian recker: Yeah, that's a great question. so I am a political leftist. I'm happily a socialist. I I don't need Jesus to have been a socialist because those categories simply didn't exist at the time of Jesus. Jesus definitely had radical political views and confronted the society that existed for the ways that it was exploiting the poor. Jesus took the side of the poor. and the the kingdom, you know, Jesus' central message was the kingdom of God. Which is very much a political message. the the reality is that the word kingdom that Jesus uses is Basilia, which is empire. Jesus lived under empire, and the empire of Rome. There was there already was an empire. Caesar ruled that that that world and that system of domination controlled the world through violence and called it peace. they you speak of the Pax Romana, the Roman peace, that Rome achieved. What they called world peace. But how did they achieve world peace? By violently dominating anyone who would dare defy Roman authority. So peace through victory over your enemies, peace through conquest, peace through domination, peace through we have the biggest army, so you can't come up against us, and we're gonna call that peace. Jesus, however, embodied a different kind of reign, a different kind of empire that came from God. And and that is based in a different view of peace. God's peace, shalom, is the Hebrew word for peace, but it means so much more than quiet. A lot of times when we think of peace, we just think the absence of conflict. That's not what shalom is. Shalom is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of justice. The the the logic of empire, the logic of Rome, and really every empire, from Rome to Babylon to even American imperialism is peace through strength. Peace through, you're not gonna mess with us. We have the bigger bombs. But God's peace, Shalom says that peace, true peace, only comes through justice. Not by, well, it's peace because it's quiet, because everybody knows that if they cause a fuss, we're gonna kill them, but peace because everyone is being treated fairly and everyone has enough. That is the kind of peace that God wants in the world. So that was Jesus' message. This kingdom message was blessed are the poor. Let's build a world where people actually have their daily bread. Now, Jesus didn't advocate for socialism, but he did say that that world was built on the principle of the Jubilee, which was a Hebrew law where every 50 years debt would be canceled, slaves would be released, and the land. Which was really the means of production, would be redistributed equally. So that if there had been extreme wealth inequalities that had grown, it was like a great reset, which brought that inequality back down. And Jesus did not have political power. He didn't live in a democracy. He lived under an empire. So he didn't have the ability to build a new kind of government. But what he did do was call followers into an alternative. Counter community, a community of resistance that embodied a new kind of existence from within the empire. From within this empire that was expressing itself in terms of violence and domination, Jesus called his followers into a nonviolent community where they would share their resources. And it's very interesting to me that after Jesus' death and resurrection, the first act of that community in Acts chapter two was to sell their resources and distribute to all that had. that had need. And so that's the kind of community that Jesus was hoping to build. And he said that that kingdom would be like a mustard seed. In other words, he wasn't going to topple the empire with violent revolution, but actually he scattered seeds. And the way that mustard seeds work, they're intrusive plants, they're intrusive weeds. That actually, as these seeds propagate and germinate, they would spread throughout the world. So Jesus started an alternative counter community embodying a different way of being human, where we care for each other as equal brothers and sisters, where we're not in a hierarchy of domination, but we're actually all meant to have enough. And that he was hoping that those alternative counter-communities did spread and change the way that we lived in the world. Now, today. I think that we live in a democracy which is very, very different than Jesus' world where we actually can have our voices expressed in political power. So we can through the democratic process institute some of those same principles of a world where people's basic human needs are met and where people are treated fairly and equally and where everybody can have enough. And so I push for political systems that treat people with human dignity and that care about real human needs like healthcare and food scarcity and clean water. and that sort of thing. And so for me right now, that looks like socialism. but I I kind of if we're talking about Jesus, you know, we don't have to call it that. But, you know, if you just want to say, well, let's have healthcare, we can start there, you know, and argue about the the the labels and the semantics and the details. but I do think that any system like capitalism that leads to and perpetuates extreme wealth inequalities does not really embody the the kingdom message of of Jesus. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That was also beautifully worded and and I appreciated, you know, just like your your stance of my one of my things that I go to is is how Jesus fed five thousand people without question. Like there was no criteria. And and and I I think about that a lot, like with all like the hoops and jumps we put people through just to get services and resources and And and even when you look at the Lord's Prayer, I I was thinking about the phrase, give us this day our daily bread. Like, yes, like in terms of help me to survive eat that day. But if you were to really unpack what give us this day our daily bread would mean, it would mean a system that does not hoard the bread, that is not price gouging the bread, that has not taken a monopoly on all the wheat. And the far like there is like if you want to say, like, God, give me this day our daily bread, the whole system has to be godly, not just the bread you're eating. And and it's a really it it it it's it's it's it's really an and something again, like I said, like I don't know too much about economic theory to to have a a a a good conversation. I'm I'm just seeing this and I'm like, This is wild how on both sides I this and I don't and that I've never really understood the prosperity gospel. I mean, I do in that like if you believe good things will happen to you, like that kind of thing. But really tying Jesus to the 700 Club was always something that I was like, how do you make that jump? And I don't know if you're familiar with that world or not, but it is nice to hear people move from the 700 club to be like, actually I think health insurance is Christlike. And and and so thank you for for that. brian recker: Totally. Yeah, people will take Jesus and appropriate him for their agendas and you know, obviously, grifters are gonna grift. So yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, okay. So since then, this has been post COVID. Your life has blown up. You have made amazing strides. You you have this book out. what are ways that keep you grounded or centered? but but with this fight and how do you keep going? How do you stay inspired? What does the quote unquote self care of an advocate leader like you. What does that look like? brian recker: Yeah, that's a good question. I listen, I I don't claim to have it all figured out. We've we've been through hell the last couple of years. Trump, Trump version two is somehow even worse than his first term. And I I I can be I can have days where I'm as anxious as anybody else about the future. this is one reason why I haven't given up on Jesus and on on the way of Jesus. I I think you know it's really unfortunate that in general religion and Christianity is often seen as something more associated with conservatives than with progressives. And yet I would say that I feel like I need Jesus more than ever. As we, those of us who who want to see a world where people have their basic human needs met, where I mean America, we're the richest country that's ever existed in the history of the world. And we currently have one of the highest child poverty rates in the Western world. we're we're the only developed nation that does not have universal healthcare. one in three families have medical debt. It's the number one reason for bank bankruptcy. I mean, that's the world we live in. and we long for a different kind of world. We long for a better world, and it's out in front of us, and we're pursuing a world that doesn't exist yet, which is inherently anxiety-inducing. When you know, there is something I think that was somewhat comforting. When I believed that the country was the way that it was for a reason, and that the poor people who were poor deserved to be poor, the people who had the money deserved to have the money. The way that it's set up, these structures, they might feel unequal, but they're fair and they're right and they're good, and we are good, and our military is good, our imperialism is good, our wars are good. There is something less anxiety-inducing about that to just accept the system as it is. But once you begin to challenge the system and you believe actually. Hmm, maybe I'm a part of something that's doing bad things. Maybe actually some of this needs to change. Maybe we're actually grinding people into the dirt. and actually I need to see those people who are suffering the most under this system as my beloved brothers and sisters and siblings in God. And once you see that, all of a sudden there is a sense of helplessness and powerlessness that comes to you because I don't have the ability to change the world the way that I want to. I can shout into a microphone and I can post on Instagram, but that platform is owned by Meta. Literally, the evil billionaires own the very platform that I'm screaming into the void of. Like I am somewhat helpless. And that is anxiety inducing. And what that requires of me more than ever is a spiritual center. I think that progressives who long for a better world need a spiritual center. I want to be anchored in God. I don't get up and fight. For this, because I know that it's gonna work or that it's gonna happen in my lifetime. I might just be scattering seeds. Jesus scattered seeds and then he died on a cross because it was the right thing to do. And so I want to be anchored in God and to pursue the purpose and calling that God has for me, come what may. And that does, yeah. I I need, I do. So for me, spirituality still really does matter and it helps me. To pursue the right thing for the right reason and push past fear and anxiety in that way. And so for me, that does look like being a part of a spiritual community. I am a part of a church. Now it's hard sometimes to find a church that really knows what time it is, you know, that isn't bought into the powers that be. And so I'm really lucky to have a good church where we actually talk about these things. and there are many good progressive churches that actually do long to see God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. and but you don't have to go to church to find that. You know, you can find community. I I would say that we need to be a part of communities of resistance so that we're not alone in this. If you want to be a part of of resistance, then you need to do that in community. I think that for me as well, relationships with people who have really deep lived experience of of marginality has been really important that you know I I like to point out when people ask me like what's giving you hope right now I can be somewhat like you you think I've got hope like but I think one of the things that gives me hope is knowing that this is not the first time that this is happening. Like for some of us, it feels really unprecedented. What's happening right now in this term, in Trump's second term, it can feel really scary and unprecedented. But then I talk to my dear friend Tamise, who is a queer black bodied person with a a a female presenting non-binary person, and their entire lived experience. has been one of erasure. It it life didn't just get hard with Trump's second term. they've all they were born into a world that was built to erase them. They've lived every day of their lives. In a world that didn't welcome their full humanity. And so for those of us now who are like, whoa, it's getting really hard. I I had this conversation with Tamiz and sh they were just like, hey, Brian, just so you know, like it's always been hard for me. And so when I encounter people like that, I I need to pause and I need to say, okay, well, then what resources have you found? Like, how have you been living? because we have a lot to learn from I I would say our queer neighbors, our black and brown neighbors. you know, the queer community has has has really learned. How to experience joy through resistance because it's always been resistance for some people. And you can't live without joy. So that means they had to learn how to protest in the day and still dance at night. And that's the life I want to live. I I don't want to say, okay, I'll gee, I'll be happy and I'll experience joy when we win. Cause I don't know if we're gonna win. I I and this is my life, man. Like this is my one and only life. So I need to be able to both resist. and stand for what's right and also experience the joy of of my human life that I that I get to live with my neighbors and and and with my family and with my friends. And I think we can learn that well from from those who have experienced marginality most. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I really want to thank you for your heart and for your your time today. And I know this was really much more about getting to know you and hearing your story and and and really just sharing your platform with my followers, because my followers are a mix of Christian ex evangelicals. Some have no idea about all this. So it was really truly special to be able to hang with you today. I hope you can come back and we can sink into other topics for sure. Can you please tell folks how they can follow you or learn more about you? brian recker: Yeah, I'm very active on Instagram at B-E-Recor, R-E-C-K-E-R, B-E-R-E-C-K-E-R is my handle. so you can find me on there. I also write somewhat regularly on Substack, Beloved with Brian Wrecker is the name of my Substack, where you can follow along. And yeah, if you're interested in some of my thoughts on spirituality, definitely grab my book, Hellbent, How the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back from a Spirituality of Love. Where I sort of do a deconstruction of punitive, fear-based religion and an invitation to a a a Christianity centered on on love and following the way of Jesus. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Absolutely. To me, God is always loving, life giving, and liberating. Well, Brian, thank you so much for for joining me today. Listeners, please let me know in the comments what you thought about today's call. And if you do have any questions or topics for a second call, please let me know. this has been truly an honor and a privilege today. I I like I said, I hope you come back, Brian. for those listening, thank you. This has been another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host, Leigh Larson. And until next time, see ya. Come on. brian recker: Bye. Thanks for having me.