Latest / The Morning Edition / Trump 'doesn't have a plan' for his war on Iran. And the MAGA base is splintering

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Trump 'doesn't have a plan' for his war on Iran. And the MAGA base is splintering · The Morning Edition

• 0:04
  S1: Only six days since the United States and Israel began
• 0:07
  S1: bombing Iran. The destruction is mounting. More than 800 people
• 0:12
  S1: have been killed, including Iranian schoolchildren and American service members.
• 0:18
  S1: What will it take to stop this war and what
• 0:21
  S1: might compel Donald Trump to end it if he can?
• 0:26
  S1: I'm Samantha Sellinger Morris, and you're listening to Morning Edition
• 0:30
  S1: from The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, international
• 0:34
  S1: and political editor Peter Hartcher on Trump's tactics and how
• 0:38
  S1: his MAGA base is responding. It's March the 5th. Welcome, Peter,
• 0:47
  S1: back to the podcast.
• 0:49
  S2: Always a pleasure, Samantha.
• 0:50
  S1: Okay, well, listen, it's been a few days since we
• 0:52
  S1: last spoke about Iran. So can you briefly just take
• 0:55
  S1: us through how far the chaos and violence has spread
• 0:58
  S1: since the war began over the weekend?
• 1:01
  S2: Well, after decapitating the regime in Iran, the Americans and
• 1:05
  S2: Israelis have continued to bombard Iranian targets. The Iranians have
• 1:10
  S2: fired back and tried to hurt US bases and interests
• 1:14
  S2: wherever possible.
• 1:15
  S3: These details just breaking and that vision just coming into
• 1:18
  S3: the newsroom now. But this was a suspected Iranian drone
• 1:21
  S3: which has hit the US consulate in Dubai. It is
• 1:25
  S3: on fire, as you can see, from both Kuwait and
• 1:27
  S3: Saudi Arabia, increasing that pressure. And the IDF has said
• 1:31
  S3: that it's now operating in southern Lebanon after Hezbollah fired
• 1:35
  S3: rockets into Israel.
• 1:36
  S4: Panic, chaos and injuries at the Dubai airport overnight and
• 1:40
  S4: a Shahed drone striking a luxury hotel in Dubai's Palm Jumeirah.
• 1:47
  S5: Oh my God.
• 1:50
  S2: Casualties have been concentrated mostly in Iran. Some 800, so
• 1:55
  S2: far as we can tell, according to the Red Crescent.
• 1:58
  S2: Ten Israelis, six dead American service personnel, 52 Lebanese. We
• 2:06
  S2: shouldn't be surprised about this aspect because the Iranians promised
• 2:09
  S2: to do this. They promised that they would retaliate against
• 2:11
  S2: the US and Israel, but they also said that they
• 2:14
  S2: would hit other Gulf states that were siding with America.
• 2:19
  S2: And they have they've hit every Gulf state. I don't
• 2:25
  S2: think it's intelligent strategy for the Iranians to start bombing
• 2:29
  S2: and droning, if that's a verb, are all the Gulf
• 2:33
  S2: states because it only alienates them and brings them into
• 2:37
  S2: a war they were trying to stay out of. Apart
• 2:40
  S2: from the fact that it's crippled global aviation because so
• 2:43
  S2: much of it passes through the UAE. Plus, of course,
• 2:48
  S2: the effect of the Iranians closing the Strait of Hormuz
• 2:53
  S2: has been to push up the global oil price. So far,
• 2:56
  S2: the effect has been around about 10%, so it's not
• 3:01
  S2: catastrophic by any means. So that's an aspect, the whole
• 3:06
  S2: economic aspect, which is then translated into modest, so far
• 3:10
  S2: contained stock market damage and investor damage around the world
• 3:15
  S2: as well. So that's the state of play around about now.
• 3:18
  S1: And there's still a lot of chaos. You've just written,
• 3:21
  S1: many people have written because there's so much chaos around
• 3:23
  S1: what's actually what this war is all about. Right. But
• 3:26
  S1: you've actually spoken to two people with it has to
• 3:29
  S1: be said inside knowledge about what wars can accomplish and
• 3:31
  S1: specifically about how Donald Trump thinks about military strategy. So
• 3:36
  S1: what did they tell you about what Trump very well
• 3:38
  S1: might be thinking now, and whether this is indeed about
• 3:42
  S1: regime change, as he has sometimes said it was. And
• 3:44
  S1: then sometimes, of course, he says it's about completely other matters,
• 3:48
  S1: as do members of his cabinet. It changes by the day.
• 3:50
  S2: Yeah, well, there's chaos about his intentions and ultimate outcome
• 3:55
  S2: because he sows the the chaos. He is the one
• 3:59
  S2: who continuously changes the rationale. On Saturday, he told the
• 4:03
  S2: Washington Post, I only want freedom for the Iranian people.
• 4:07
  S2: He said that's the only thing he wants.
• 4:09
  S6: Me to the great, proud people of Iran. I say
• 4:12
  S6: tonight that the hour of your freedom is at hand.
• 4:15
  S6: Stay sheltered. Don't leave your home. It's very dangerous outside.
• 4:20
  S6: Bombs will be dropping everywhere. When we are finished, take
• 4:23
  S6: over your government. It will be yours to take.
• 4:27
  S2: But on other occasions, he said he wanted to pre-empt
• 4:30
  S2: an Iranian strike on the US or Israel.
• 4:33
  S6: This was our last, best chance to strike. What we're
• 4:37
  S6: doing right now and eliminate the intolerable threats posed by
• 4:41
  S6: this sick and sinister regime regime.
• 4:44
  S2: He said he wanted to prevent the proliferation of nuclear
• 4:47
  S2: technology and fuel beyond Iran. He wanted to change the
• 4:53
  S2: regime in Iran. He wanted to replace the head of
• 4:56
  S2: the regime in Iran. So this is why there's so
• 5:00
  S2: much confusion. So I thought, well, how do we make
• 5:07
  S2: sense of this? So yes, I talked to the geopolitical strategist,
• 5:09
  S2: John Bolton, who was Donald Trump's national security adviser for
• 5:14
  S2: a year and a half in Trump's first term. Bolton
• 5:17
  S2: is a well known Republican Hawk diplomat advisor who for
• 5:23
  S2: 25 years has been urging American presidents to assault Iran.
• 5:27
  S2: And now that he's getting his way, he's worried that
• 5:30
  S2: Trump is about to bungle the whole thing. And so
• 5:34
  S2: I put to him, what is Trump's plan? You've worked
• 5:37
  S2: with him. He's talked about all these issues many times
• 5:39
  S2: with Trump. When he worked for him. He said, I
• 5:41
  S2: don't think he has a plan. He said there is
• 5:43
  S2: no plan. And evidence for that partly is the continuously
• 5:47
  S2: changing rationales that Trump offers. And of course, Trump saying that,
• 5:52
  S2: you know, on the Saturday he said it could be
• 5:54
  S2: over in 2 or 3 days. And then the next
• 5:55
  S2: day he said it's 4 or 5 weeks and any
• 5:58
  S2: variation in between. He also said on Saturday, the Iranians
• 6:01
  S2: are ready to talk and I'm ready to talk to them.
• 6:04
  S2: But the Iranians.
• 6:05
  S1: The bombs are.
• 6:05
  S2: Flying. But yeah, while the bombs are flying. And but then,
• 6:08
  S2: you know, it hadn't even been 24 hours.
• 6:10
  S1: But negotiations don't tend to go well when. When bombs
• 6:12
  S1: are flying.
• 6:13
  S2: Well, Mick Ryan, the other the military strategist, I talked to,
• 6:16
  S2: retired Australian general and a widely respected military strategist and commentator.
• 6:22
  S2: He said that to him, the Iranian retaliation looked like
• 6:26
  S2: what he called a dead hand retaliatory strike. And this
• 6:30
  S2: was a doctrine that was adopted during the Cold War.
• 6:34
  S2: In the event of a nuclear strike that wipes out
• 6:36
  S2: the leadership. There is a pre-programmed retaliatory set of strikes
• 6:41
  S2: that proceed almost automatically because it's called dead hand, because
• 6:45
  S2: the leader is dead. And so a preset series of
• 6:48
  S2: retaliations occurs. And that's he said, that's what this pattern
• 6:52
  S2: of Iranian retaliation looks like. He said. There's no point
• 6:56
  S2: talking to the Iranians while that's going on. And he said,
• 6:58
  S2: there's certainly no point sitting down with them and they're
• 7:01
  S2: talking to you about their intentions and there's missiles screaming overhead.
• 7:05
  S2: So these are the this is the array of Trump rationales,
• 7:09
  S2: Trump timetables all conflicting with each other. Another piece of
• 7:15
  S2: evidence that John Bolton offered in arguing his point that
• 7:20
  S2: there is no plan. Trump just has no idea what
• 7:22
  S2: he's doing. Minute to minute is the chaos in the
• 7:25
  S2: oil market. Bolton said to me, and I didn't have
• 7:28
  S2: space to use this in the in my column. But
• 7:30
  S2: he said to me that, uh, all of the endangerment
• 7:36
  S2: to oil facilities and to oil transiting through the Strait
• 7:39
  S2: of Hormuz was entirely predictable, had been anticipated and war
• 7:44
  S2: gamed by the US military in all sorts of scenarios
• 7:47
  S2: for decades, and should not have come to a surprise
• 7:50
  S2: as a surprise to anybody. He said, but there's obviously
• 7:52
  S2: no plan because we see nothing out of the US.
• 7:55
  S2: And then in the last 24 hours we heard Trump say, oh, well,
• 7:59
  S2: there's a problem. Well, the, the, the US Navy will
• 8:01
  S2: escort vessels through the Strait of Hormuz. So, you know,
• 8:05
  S2: this sort of ex post facto reaction to try to
• 8:08
  S2: patch up problems which really were quite foreseeable. So I'm
• 8:13
  S2: afraid the bad news is that somebody who knows Trump
• 8:17
  S2: is thinking the Iran scenarios, and the entire back story
• 8:21
  S2: says Trump has no idea what he's doing. And Mick
• 8:23
  S2: Ryan separately came to the same conclusion. He said the
• 8:28
  S2: initial military phase, which was led by the Israelis and
• 8:32
  S2: followed by the Americans, he said, was exquisite. As a
• 8:35
  S2: professional military planner, he said, I would call that exquisite
• 8:38
  S2: in its precision and timing and effect.
• 8:41
  S1: Yeah, the military intelligence that obviously they acquired in order
• 8:44
  S1: to know where all those leaders were going to be. Yes. Yeah.
• 8:46
  S1: It was incredible in that sense.
• 8:48
  S2: Yes. So, you know, the Israelis have long had a
• 8:52
  S2: global comparative advantage, shall we call it, with intelligence? The
• 8:56
  S2: Americans have long had a global comparative advantage with delivering
• 8:58
  S2: large quantities of firepower. The two. The two came together
• 9:01
  S2: with great effect in the first 24 hours. Mick Ryan
• 9:04
  S2: gave them credit. She said it was exquisite. He said
• 9:07
  S2: but the question is what comes next? And that's the
• 9:09
  S2: hard part. He said there's no evidence of a plan.
• 9:12
  S2: He said the important part now, and this is a
• 9:15
  S2: military man, a career army officer here speaking. He said
• 9:19
  S2: the critical part is the politics, the economics and the society.
• 9:23
  S2: There is nothing happening there. Trump the administration isn't briefing
• 9:28
  S2: the Congress. Nobody's talking about it.
• 9:30
  S1: Well, I wanted to ask you there about geopolitics, Peter,
• 9:32
  S1: because and especially with what you just said about the
• 9:35
  S1: Straits of Hormuz and how it could have been foreseen
• 9:37
  S1: that the Iranians were going to shut this off as
• 9:40
  S1: a way of retaliating, because some analysts are actually saying
• 9:43
  S1: that Trump's desire in starting this war, obviously, along with
• 9:47
  S1: the Israelis, was to starve China of the cheap oil
• 9:52
  S1: that it gets from Iran, that this was a geopolitical
• 9:54
  S1: strategy to shore up America's global supremacy, because so much
• 9:58
  S1: of China's economy relies on the crude that it gets
• 10:01
  S1: from Iran. Something like 14% of its seaborne crude comes
• 10:05
  S1: from Iran. Do you think there's any credibility to that,
• 10:07
  S1: or is that just giving Trump way too much credit
• 10:09
  S1: that he would have had this geopolitical strategy?
• 10:11
  S2: Yes. I think this is a part of a syndrome
• 10:15
  S2: of experts who really know their subjects to look at
• 10:19
  S2: the Trump chaos. It's like a Rorschach test, right? And
• 10:24
  S2: superimposed on that, that inkblot, their own expertise and understanding
• 10:29
  S2: of the world. I think this is a classic example
• 10:33
  S2: in this great muddle and befuddlement, in the Trump mind,
• 10:37
  S2: in the Trump planning, or the absence of planning. Um,
• 10:41
  S2: people seek order and understanding, and so they impose their
• 10:45
  S2: own structured thinking and academic learning and expertise and see
• 10:50
  S2: in it maybe what they would do or trying to
• 10:53
  S2: make sense of it. I don't think there's any prospect
• 10:56
  S2: that Trump has actually considered that in any sort of, um,
• 11:00
  S2: thought through way. Everything he does, whether it's tariffs, missiles,
• 11:06
  S2: you name it, is ad hoc and all that's done.
• 11:10
  S2: If you think about China and oil, Trump is trying
• 11:14
  S2: to discourage countries from using Russian oil because the US
• 11:19
  S2: and others have sanctions on Russian oil to punish them
• 11:22
  S2: for their invasion of Ukraine. But by creating a shortage
• 11:27
  S2: and a price hike of oil coming out of the
• 11:29
  S2: Persian Gulf, that is just pushing China and India into
• 11:34
  S2: buying more Russian oil. Now, this is a great gift
• 11:37
  S2: to the Kremlin. This is a great gift to the
• 11:39
  S2: Russian war machine. Dmitry Peskov, who's the chief spokesperson for
• 11:44
  S2: Vladimir Putin in the Kremlin, was gloating on social media. Uh,
• 11:49
  S2: $100 a barrel of oil. Here we come.
• 11:55
  S1: After the break.
• 11:57
  S2: Candace Owens, a mega influencer of some notoriety. She has
• 12:04
  S2: described this not as the so-called Operation Epic Fury. She
• 12:10
  S2: calls it Operation Epstein Fury.
• 12:25
  S1: What kind of chaos do you think this could unleash?
• 12:29
  S1: I was thinking about something that I heard Thomas Friedman
• 12:32
  S1: say the other day. He is the Pulitzer Prize winning
• 12:34
  S1: political writer. And he said just the other day on
• 12:37
  S1: what's happening in Iran. The opposite of autocracy isn't democracy.
• 12:41
  S1: It's chaos. So we've seen what happens when the US invades, say,
• 12:46
  S1: Iraq or Afghanistan or Libya, and often far worse regimes
• 12:51
  S1: either come about or it's just absolute chaos. So what
• 12:56
  S1: do you think, Peter?
• 12:57
  S2: Well, it was the US led invasion of Afghanistan and
• 13:03
  S2: then Iraq. The futility, the failures and the enormous cost
• 13:07
  S2: that turned the US as a as a whole, as
• 13:09
  S2: a polity against the use of warfare where it's avoidable.
• 13:14
  S2: That's why Barack Obama used to say, I'm the president
• 13:18
  S2: who ends wars as a contrast with Bush and his predecessors.
• 13:23
  S2: That's why Donald Trump in his inaugural said, I'm not
• 13:26
  S2: going to start any wars. I'm going to end wars.
• 13:28
  S2: He's called himself the president for peace. That is because
• 13:32
  S2: the costs have been so horrendous. Afghanistan, the US was
• 13:36
  S2: there for 20 years and the Taliban is back in control.
• 13:40
  S2: So what was the point of the bloodshed? What was
• 13:43
  S2: the point of the cost at the chaos? The wounded
• 13:46
  S2: veterans who were still suffering from amputations, PTSD and all
• 13:51
  S2: the rest of it. Then there was Iraq, where, you know, again,
• 13:57
  S2: tremendous initial bombardment, followed by a series of half assed,
• 14:02
  S2: half conceived, badly executed plans resulted in eight years of losses.
• 14:09
  S2: US leaves, as a consequence, an unintended consequence of the
• 14:13
  S2: US led combat. We see ISIS take over a large
• 14:17
  S2: chunk of the country, form a caliphate, and start exporting
• 14:20
  S2: terrorism with that sort of a history of strategy and
• 14:24
  S2: failure to plan. It's no surprise that there is great
• 14:27
  S2: skepticism about what the US strategy is next, but it
• 14:30
  S2: is a surprise that the at the failure of any
• 14:34
  S2: evidence of real strategy. Mind you, if Trump does succeed
• 14:40
  S2: with the Israelis in removing this regime, if they can
• 14:44
  S2: somehow engineer a more benign and reasonable, responsible government. Donald
• 14:50
  S2: Trump will be hailed as a great hero. Part of
• 14:53
  S2: the difficulty with these sort of events, with wars is
• 14:56
  S2: that anything is possible.
• 14:58
  S1: Well, I guess let's talk about that then. The prospect
• 15:00
  S1: for regime change, because we know that the Trump administration
• 15:03
  S1: has actively undermined any opposition that could rise up against
• 15:07
  S1: the Islamic Republic, right. Like Trump has taken money away
• 15:10
  S1: from Iranian human rights monitoring groups. And Kari Lake, who's
• 15:14
  S1: a Maga superstar within Trump's camp, she's cut funding to
• 15:17
  S1: the Open Technology Fund Agency, which is dedicated to providing
• 15:20
  S1: virtual private networks and satellite access to Iranians. We also
• 15:25
  S1: know the Voice of America, which was a local radio
• 15:27
  S1: station in Persian language, which could give Iranians access to, uh,
• 15:32
  S1: non propaganda, essentially to information that's been cut back. So
• 15:38
  S1: isn't it quite a leap, I guess, to think that
• 15:41
  S1: there could be regime change here or am I just
• 15:43
  S1: being pessimistic?
• 15:45
  S2: Well, the ayatollahs have been, as far as we can tell,
• 15:49
  S2: very successful in destroying and splintering any potential opposition. As
• 15:55
  S2: far as we know, there is no organized opposition in Iran,
• 15:59
  S2: so it's a difficult place to start. But there are
• 16:02
  S2: some opposition figures. We know that, for example, from the
• 16:06
  S2: fact that the US was able to smuggle into Iran
• 16:09
  S2: 6000 Starlink satellite terminals to help the Iranian opposition continue
• 16:14
  S2: to have communications and to get around the communications blackout
• 16:19
  S2: imposed by the regime. So somebody receiving those and somebody
• 16:22
  S2: using those. And in fact, John Bolton's point was, he said,
• 16:26
  S2: the main emphasis today for the US and its allies
• 16:31
  S2: really only got the one which is on the ground
• 16:34
  S2: in is Israel really need to be talking to the opposition,
• 16:38
  S2: negotiating with the opposition, trying to help and assist and
• 16:42
  S2: boost the opposition, because the opposition uniquely has an ability
• 16:45
  S2: to work inside the country to find any fissures or
• 16:49
  S2: differences between the different elements of the Iranian regime and
• 16:53
  S2: try to pick it apart, if in fact that's possible.
• 16:56
  S2: Because if the regime is going to fall, its security
• 17:00
  S2: apparatus or its political leadership or both need to fracture.
• 17:05
  S2: At this stage, you don't see the security apparatus starting
• 17:08
  S2: to fracture in any way. There's a frisson of excitement
• 17:11
  S2: that a single prison allowed some political prisoners to walk
• 17:15
  S2: out without explanation. That's a long way from either the
• 17:20
  S2: regular army or the Revolutionary Guard from splintering.
• 17:25
  S1: And I guess, Peter, just to wrap up, I want
• 17:27
  S1: to ask you what you think the political price, I guess,
• 17:30
  S1: could be for Trump in all of this. I mean,
• 17:32
  S1: this war might go on. For a very long time,
• 17:34
  S1: I've been seeing analysis that the Iranians will try to
• 17:37
  S1: prolong the war as long as possible in order to
• 17:40
  S1: drive up the cost of the war for Trump, American casualties,
• 17:42
  S1: the price of oil we've just mentioned, you know, so
• 17:45
  S1: that he can they can persuade him to declare victory
• 17:47
  S1: and just go home. Now, when we last spoke just
• 17:51
  S1: a few days ago, I think it was only about
• 17:53
  S1: a quarter of Americans who were in support of the war.
• 17:55
  S1: I can't imagine that's going to go anywhere but down.
• 17:59
  S1: Assuming that, tragically more American service members are killed in
• 18:02
  S1: this conflict, so could this be the thing that really
• 18:05
  S1: damages his power in the United States? Like, what are
• 18:08
  S1: the MAGA base feeling about this and other Republicans?
• 18:13
  S2: Well, it's similar to to Trump's tariff policy that was
• 18:18
  S2: essentially imposing a cost on American consumers to pay more
• 18:23
  S2: for their goods so that Trump could use the fiscal
• 18:25
  S2: space that created to give a tax cut to the rich.
• 18:28
  S2: So it's a direct transfer of wealth from American consumers
• 18:32
  S2: to wealthy taxpayers with this one. What you see with
• 18:36
  S2: the inflationary effect taking effect through the price of oil
• 18:40
  S2: and LNG, but also will flow on to the price
• 18:43
  S2: of plastics, polyesters and others as well. What you're going
• 18:46
  S2: to see there is again, an inflationary increase, which is
• 18:50
  S2: a direct transfer of wealth away from the American consumer
• 18:56
  S2: that can't help Trump's domestic standing. The two big domestic
• 19:00
  S2: problems he's got that are proving insurmountable for him. One
• 19:04
  S2: is inflation and the cost of living. That's the number
• 19:07
  S2: one concern for most Americans. And he's been unable to
• 19:09
  S2: do anything concrete about that except to try and talk
• 19:12
  S2: it down, which doesn't work. And the second is the
• 19:15
  S2: Epstein case. Again, it just doesn't go away. And he's
• 19:18
  S2: mishandled that pretty horribly. And that really rankles with the
• 19:23
  S2: MAGA base. Candace Owens. A Maga influencer of some notoriety,
• 19:31
  S2: she has described this not as the so-called Operation Epic Fury.
• 19:36
  S2: She calls it Operation Epstein Fury, on the basis that
• 19:40
  S2: it's a Trump attempt to deflect and distract from his
• 19:43
  S2: problem with the Epstein files and the ructions that's created
• 19:47
  S2: within the MAGA base. So the MAGA base is splintering
• 19:51
  S2: on this. The entire American population is paying the price
• 19:55
  S2: again for Trump policy. The longer this goes, as you say,
• 19:59
  S2: the more likely that price will go up for the
• 20:03
  S2: American public, not to mention the taxpayer cost of of
• 20:07
  S2: the actual waging of the war.
• 20:08
  S1: And also, I would suggest those who join the American
• 20:11
  S1: military are disproportionately from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. So there's going
• 20:16
  S1: to be young soldiers who are often not well off.
• 20:20
  S1: And I just I wonder how that will play with
• 20:23
  S1: Trump's base as well. Well, again, this sort of sheltering
• 20:26
  S1: the elite and then, you know, the sort of less
• 20:29
  S1: well-off paying in every way.
• 20:33
  S2: Well, this is a common syndrome with militaries everywhere and
• 20:36
  S2: and especially with the US military in the recent deployments
• 20:39
  S2: we've seen in this century, it would be completely politically
• 20:45
  S2: suicidal for Trump to put ground forces into Iran, because
• 20:49
  S2: that would guarantee a large number of American troops being killed,
• 20:54
  S2: which would indeed inflame opinion. Opinion is not with Trump
• 20:58
  S2: on this. It would turn savagely against him. So if
• 21:02
  S2: he succeeds as a as I said, if he succeeds,
• 21:06
  S2: he'll be hailed as a hero. And that might get
• 21:08
  S2: him a few brownie points. But it's hard to see
• 21:11
  S2: this as a big domestic political winner, particularly the longer
• 21:15
  S2: it goes on and the higher those costs run.
• 21:18
  S1: Well, we're lucky that you are commentating in this space,
• 21:22
  S1: so thank you so much, Peter.
• 21:23
  S2: Always a pleasure to chat to you, Samantha.
• 21:37
  S1: In other news, today, Australian researchers have developed an AI
• 21:41
  S1: tool that can predict breast cancer in women who have
• 21:44
  S1: been given the all clear in traditional screenings. And the
• 21:48
  S1: data is in. Despite government incentives, property investors have piled
• 21:53
  S1: into the Australian housing market in the past five years,
• 21:56
  S1: while first home buyers have fallen and a hit TV
• 22:00
  S1: series has created a new generation obsessed with the style
• 22:04
  S1: of the late Carolyn Bessette-kennedy. Experts explain why her minimalist
• 22:09
  S1: look deserves another look. You can read more at theage.com.au
• 22:14
  S1: or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our
• 22:22
  S1: executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen
• 22:25
  S1: by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show,
• 22:29
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• 22:32
  S1: on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.