Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / WHO IS HE? Tot Boy Found Dead in Fabulous Vegas Suitcase

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WHO IS HE? Tot Boy Found Dead in Fabulous Vegas Suitcase · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Imagine walking through a beautiful
0:16
Speaker 1: cops of dense woods, enjoying your morning, when suddenly you
0:22
Speaker 1: see a welcome to the fabulous Las Vegas suitcase, and
0:28
Speaker 1: of course, curiosity gets the better of you. You open
0:31
Speaker 1: it up and you don't find a lot of casino chips,
0:36
Speaker 1: you don't find a lot of money. Inside, you find
0:40
Speaker 1: a dead boy. That is exactly what happened. The body
0:46
Speaker 1: of a five year old little boy found and a
0:50
Speaker 1: Welcome to Vegas suitcase. But now who is he and
0:55
Speaker 1: how did he get there? I'm Nancy Grace. This is
0:59
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at
1:01
Speaker 1: Fox Nation in series XM one eleven. First of all,
1:04
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at wha s shocking
1:08
Speaker 1: story that's been developing since the weekend. New evidence released
1:12
Speaker 1: by Indiana State Police moments ago in the discovery of
1:15
Speaker 1: a little boy's body in the woods in southern Indiana,
1:17
Speaker 1: the chilling reality that he may have been dumped there
1:20
Speaker 1: from somewhere else. This photo of a suitcase. Indiana State
1:24
Speaker 1: Police tell us the body of the little boy was
1:26
Speaker 1: found inside this suitcase, and for the first time, they
1:29
Speaker 1: have given a specific location the seven thousand block of
1:32
Speaker 1: East Holder Road in Washington County, Indiana. The wooded area
1:35
Speaker 1: there that southeast of Salem. Now the discovery was made
1:38
Speaker 1: by a person hunting for mushrooms over the weekend. Also
1:41
Speaker 1: new today, an autopsy was performed. Police have not released
1:45
Speaker 1: any results, nor they have released no possible cause of death,
1:48
Speaker 1: and they still do not know his identity. We do
1:51
Speaker 1: know the police say the boy is only five to
1:53
Speaker 1: eight years old. They add that he could have been
1:55
Speaker 1: from anywhere, not just southern Indiana. Investigators say they have
1:58
Speaker 1: been searching the wooded area where the boy was found,
2:00
Speaker 1: but the information has not led them to any answers. Again,
2:04
Speaker 1: a five year old little boy stuffed into a suitcase,
2:09
Speaker 1: and the only clue we have so far is a
2:13
Speaker 1: sticker of sorts on the suitcase. It says welcome to
2:17
Speaker 1: the fabulous Las Vegas with the iconic photo there where
2:22
Speaker 1: so many people take a picture in front of it
2:24
Speaker 1: of the background of Vegas. Why who is this little boy?
2:30
Speaker 1: How did he die? How can we trace his whereabouts?
2:33
Speaker 1: Because that's the only way we're going to find out
2:36
Speaker 1: who put him in that suitcase? Again, I Meancy Grace,
2:40
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us here on Fox Nation
2:42
Speaker 1: in series six one eleven. I've got an all star
2:45
Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we know right now.
2:47
Speaker 1: But very first I want to go to Max Lewis,
2:49
Speaker 1: investigative reporter with Fox fifty nine joining us out of Indianapolis. Max,
2:55
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. First of all,
2:57
Speaker 1: what can you tell me about the area where the
2:59
Speaker 1: suitcase was found? So, yeah, this is in Washington County, Indiana.
3:02
Speaker 1: It's about were a little over halfway from Indianapolis down
3:06
Speaker 1: to about the Louisville area, and it's extremely rural, you know,
3:11
Speaker 1: it's it really is shocking that this kind of thing
3:14
Speaker 1: would happen here. These people don't really see much going
3:16
Speaker 1: on down there, and for them to find a boy
3:18
Speaker 1: in a suitcases pretty shocking. But as you said, the
3:23
Speaker 1: person that found this was doing mushroom hunting, So you
3:25
Speaker 1: think you can't just do that in some near you know,
3:28
Speaker 1: some city, some urban areas. So he was in a
3:31
Speaker 1: pretty rural area in some country roads not too far
3:35
Speaker 1: off the interstate act. Okay, Max Lewis joined me from
3:37
Speaker 1: Fox fifty nine. Got so many questions for you, Max,
3:41
Speaker 1: you said, it's halfway between Louisville and what it's halfway
3:44
Speaker 1: between Louisville and Indianapolis on the I sixty five corridor.
3:48
Speaker 1: There how far aways is from I sixty five. It's
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Speaker 1: only a couple of miles from what I've been told
3:53
Speaker 1: from police off of the interstate. There a couple of
3:57
Speaker 1: miles off the interstate with me, as I said, an
4:01
Speaker 1: all star pound. But before we get going with them,
4:03
Speaker 1: having spoken to Max Lewis with Fox fifty nine, I
4:06
Speaker 1: want you to take a listen to our friends at
4:08
Speaker 1: wh S eleven. The man who found this boy, Jeff Meredith,
4:14
Speaker 1: is in agony, knowing he was one of the last
4:17
Speaker 1: people to see this child's face. When I first saw
4:20
Speaker 1: that little feller, immediately I felt that he was telling me,
4:27
Speaker 1: help me, I need help. The Washington County Sheriff's Office
4:33
Speaker 1: is holding a memorial service for the little boy. The
4:36
Speaker 1: community is invited to honor him next Wednesday, June one,
4:40
Speaker 1: at eleven in the morning. It will be held at
4:43
Speaker 1: Weather's Funeral Home in Salem. And remember, if you know
4:47
Speaker 1: anything about an unreported missing boy about five years old,
4:51
Speaker 1: short hair, and about forty pounds, or if you saw
4:54
Speaker 1: this suitcase in southern Indiana contact ESP at its designated
4:59
Speaker 1: tip line this case, that number is eight eight eight
5:02
Speaker 1: four three seven six four three two eight eight four
5:06
Speaker 1: three seven six four three two. Straight out to doctor
5:10
Speaker 1: Michelle Duprie, former forensic pathologist, medical examiner and detective. Author
5:16
Speaker 1: of Homicide Investigation Field Guide and Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide,
5:24
Speaker 1: which we need your expertise and both of these areas,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupree, First of all, I want to talk
5:29
Speaker 1: to you about the location, location, location, location. It's not
5:34
Speaker 1: just about real estate. It gives me a plethora of clues.
5:38
Speaker 1: We're gonna need to figure this thing out. First of all,
5:41
Speaker 1: you've got a very rural, densely wooded area halfway between
5:47
Speaker 1: Indiana and Louisville. It's just a few miles off the
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Speaker 1: I sixty five corridor. Now what does that tell me?
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Speaker 1: And what can I learn from the area and from
6:00
Speaker 1: the suitcase? Doctor Dupree? Can I talk to you about
6:04
Speaker 1: mushroom hunting, because when someone finds a body, they're the
6:10
Speaker 1: first person you'll look at. When somebody calls nine one one,
6:14
Speaker 1: they're the first person you look at. In no way
6:17
Speaker 1: has the mushroom hunter come under suspicion, But that is
6:23
Speaker 1: a starting place. So let's talk about mushroom hunting in itself,
6:29
Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Duprie. That was let me just say, you
6:33
Speaker 1: don't hear that every day? Right, that's right answer, you don't. Well,
6:36
Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree, I was expecting a little more from
6:40
Speaker 1: you than the yes no you just gave me. Let
6:43
Speaker 1: me go to Max Lewis joining me, Fox fifty nine.
6:46
Speaker 1: Apparently MOREL season is upon us. MOREL mushrooms love Indiana.
6:55
Speaker 1: Tell me about it. Yeah, they sure do. They start
6:59
Speaker 1: when the beginning of spring, and this suitcase was found
7:02
Speaker 1: in early April, so right about the time. A lot
7:05
Speaker 1: of people do it. It's a very common activity. They
7:07
Speaker 1: go out, they go to deeply wooded areas they search
7:10
Speaker 1: for these morale mushrooms and they're pretty actually hard to
7:13
Speaker 1: find and kind of rare. So if you come upon them,
7:16
Speaker 1: you're doing a pretty good job. But it's a common
7:18
Speaker 1: activity that a lot of people do, so wouldn't really
7:21
Speaker 1: raise any suspicion that this guy was going out and
7:23
Speaker 1: doing that at this time. Old timers say, quote, when
7:26
Speaker 1: the oat leaves are the size of a mouse's ear,
7:30
Speaker 1: that's the time to look for morals. Okay, I'm going
7:34
Speaker 1: to take that with a box of salt. Max Lewis again,
7:37
Speaker 1: this guy that finds the body is not under suspicion.
7:41
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is that's where you start your investigation
7:45
Speaker 1: if you've got nothing else. And joining me Karen L. Smith,
7:48
Speaker 1: forensic expert joining us out of La Lecturer University, Florida,
7:53
Speaker 1: host a hit series, Shattered Soul's podcast, Karen, we got enough.
8:00
Speaker 1: So that's why I'm talking about this guy. This guy
8:04
Speaker 1: is not under suspicion. He's not even a person of interest.
8:07
Speaker 1: He's not a suspect. I'm saying very simply that when
8:11
Speaker 1: you've got nothing, that's where you start your investigation. And
8:14
Speaker 1: I guess we could also start with the suitcase and
8:17
Speaker 1: what the little boy is wearing, but let's finish it
8:20
Speaker 1: up about the mushroom hunter. Yeah, he's not under suspicion,
8:23
Speaker 1: and nor should he be, Nancy, I think, wait a minute,
8:25
Speaker 1: whoa wait, wait wait, I don't think he should be. No,
8:28
Speaker 1: that's where I just start. Somebody standing there with a
8:31
Speaker 1: dead body. You darn right, the cops better investigate that guy.
8:34
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, I'm talking about questioning him. I don't think
8:37
Speaker 1: that he should be under suspicion for doing anything wrong.
8:40
Speaker 1: I think he came upon a suitcase. I think his
8:43
Speaker 1: voice tells the story. He was very distraught. Okay, Karen,
8:47
Speaker 1: just remember the poor soul. I think his name was
8:52
Speaker 1: Ray Kronk that found Tott Mom's daughter kill Anthony. That
9:02
Speaker 1: guy was so mistreated online by so many people. He
9:08
Speaker 1: started calling police weeks before they finally came out and
9:14
Speaker 1: followed up on his call. He said he saw something
9:17
Speaker 1: weird and strange off the road, and I've been to
9:21
Speaker 1: the spot many times. It is off the road, but
9:24
Speaker 1: if you look carefully, you can see back into again
9:26
Speaker 1: a densely wooded area. Finally it had rained, the rain stopped.
9:32
Speaker 1: He called them again. They finally came out and it
9:36
Speaker 1: was the remains of this little beautiful girl, Kelly Anthony,
9:40
Speaker 1: who many people to this day believe was murdered by
9:43
Speaker 1: her mother. Taught mom Casey Anthony. And he was demonized.
9:49
Speaker 1: He was demonized when he's the one that did a
9:52
Speaker 1: good deed and I believe that's what happened here. But
9:54
Speaker 1: since we've got nothing, that's the launching spot for cops
9:58
Speaker 1: to talk to. This guy that finds the right and
10:00
Speaker 1: there's something else I'd like to point out, with regard
10:03
Speaker 1: to the suitcase and where it was found, you can
10:05
Speaker 1: do a little bit of criminal profiling from the person
10:08
Speaker 1: who actually did leave it there. There was a handle
10:12
Speaker 1: that you can retract or you can put it down.
10:15
Speaker 1: Was that handle retracted or left extended? Was it just
10:18
Speaker 1: tossed away or was that suit case placed down flat
10:21
Speaker 1: and face up? Was it hidden or left out to
10:24
Speaker 1: be found? This tells me about the person and whether
10:27
Speaker 1: or not they cared enough for this little boy to
10:30
Speaker 1: place it down, which means they may have spent maybe
10:34
Speaker 1: a moment there, Maybe they left something of themselves behind
10:38
Speaker 1: before they walked away, So it may be worth another
10:41
Speaker 1: search of that area. Looking at the suitcase where it
10:44
Speaker 1: was found, how it was found, can tell you a
10:46
Speaker 1: little bit about the person who did leave it there,
10:48
Speaker 1: you know. Thinking about the suitcase as well, I'd like
10:51
Speaker 1: to find out was it mean was it bought specifically
10:55
Speaker 1: for this purpose? If it was, that tells me the
10:59
Speaker 1: little boy had been in Vegas, or at least in
11:02
Speaker 1: the area of Vegas, Because I mean, you can go
11:06
Speaker 1: to the airport, you can go to a lot of
11:08
Speaker 1: places surrounding Vegas, and you can find that type of
11:12
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, you know, paraphernalia, touristy stuff all over the state.
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Speaker 1: So I'm wondering about that crime stories with Nancy Grace
11:36
Speaker 1: joining me right now, in addition to Max Lewis Fox
11:38
Speaker 1: fifty nine, doctor Michelle Duprie, medical examiner Karen Smith, forensics
11:43
Speaker 1: expert Katherine marsh is with us from the Special Victims
11:47
Speaker 1: Liaison joining us from Charles County, co founder of Right
11:51
Speaker 1: Response Consulting, and she's the star of the No Gray
11:55
Speaker 1: Zone podcast. Catherine jump in, Yeah, I think there's a
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Speaker 1: lot of information from the suitcase and the location, but
12:02
Speaker 1: for me, it's most important the fact that there's been
12:06
Speaker 1: no discussion about this child. Nobody's talking about there's been
12:10
Speaker 1: a missing child. I want to know, how do we
12:14
Speaker 1: have a child that's been was discovered over a month ago,
12:18
Speaker 1: nobody's reported a missing We don't have any records from
12:21
Speaker 1: a school reporting a young child missing or a daycare.
12:25
Speaker 1: Was this child ever in the public domain? Those are
12:29
Speaker 1: all factors that I would want to know, because when
12:32
Speaker 1: we're talking about where the suitcase was located, you know,
12:35
Speaker 1: you're absolutely correct, You're absolutely correct. Nothing has indicated a
12:41
Speaker 1: child matching this description is missing, and I want to
12:46
Speaker 1: remind everybody about a case. Call little Miss Nobody, take
12:52
Speaker 1: us an our cut one. This is justin lump Fox ten, Phoenix,
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Speaker 1: a little girl between three and five years old found
13:02
Speaker 1: partially buried in the desert back in nineteen sixty. The
13:06
Speaker 1: case still haunts the Yavapine County Sheriff's office. Who is
13:09
Speaker 1: this little girl in the sketch dubbed little Miss Nobody.
13:13
Speaker 1: Her partially buried remains found at Sandwash Creek in Congress, Arizona,
13:17
Speaker 1: on July thirty first, nineteen sixty. Investigators believe her remains
13:22
Speaker 1: had been burned one to two weeks before she was discovered.
13:25
Speaker 1: The cause of death undetermined yet suspicious, and it was
13:29
Speaker 1: ruled a homicide in that case, goes On, is certainly
13:34
Speaker 1: not the first time we have encountered an unidentified child dead.
13:40
Speaker 1: What do we know about this case? We're talking about
13:42
Speaker 1: the suitcase now. Karen Smith, joining us from Shattered Soul's podcast,
13:47
Speaker 1: was describing some emotional attachment the killer or the person
13:54
Speaker 1: that disposed of the body. That person may have had
13:58
Speaker 1: to the child. You know what, sorry, Karen, don't care.
14:02
Speaker 1: I only care to the extent it could tell me
14:05
Speaker 1: who left this child there, So I care about I
14:08
Speaker 1: don't care about their emotions because they're going to write
14:10
Speaker 1: and help. Number one. I'm interested in the forensic aspect.
14:16
Speaker 1: Are there any fingerprints or is there any fiber If
14:20
Speaker 1: this was a used suitcase, maybe there's fiber or DNA
14:24
Speaker 1: of some sort in there that can help me track
14:26
Speaker 1: back to the adult that left this. We believe five
14:30
Speaker 1: year old little boy folded up in a suitcase like
14:33
Speaker 1: he was an old pair of pajamas. Take a listen
14:37
Speaker 1: now to our cut number two. This is Dakota Sherik
14:40
Speaker 1: at w d RB right now in d Nast. Please
14:44
Speaker 1: isn't giving too many details on this case, but investigators
14:47
Speaker 1: do believe that somebody out there knows something that can
14:50
Speaker 1: help them figure out who this child was. We are
14:53
Speaker 1: looking for the public's help and finding out the name
14:55
Speaker 1: of this child. At this little boy who deserves answers,
14:58
Speaker 1: He deserves our help. Sergeant Carrie Holes said. Saturday night,
15:02
Speaker 1: a mushroom hunter in the woods in rural Washington County
15:05
Speaker 1: discovered the body of a young boy. He noticed something
15:08
Speaker 1: and went to investigate, and that's what he found so
15:10
Speaker 1: very disturbing, very shocking, very traumatic event, very sad event,
15:15
Speaker 1: not just for the person who located it, but the
15:17
Speaker 1: officers and are involved also. Holes said the boy is
15:20
Speaker 1: likely between five and eight years old. He's about four
15:23
Speaker 1: feet tall, with a slim build and short haircut. Investigators
15:27
Speaker 1: believe the boy died within the last week. State police
15:30
Speaker 1: say they're not releasing details about where the boy was
15:33
Speaker 1: found or what he was wearing to protect their investigation.
15:37
Speaker 1: I don't know how much it's protecting the investigation, but okay.
15:40
Speaker 1: Doctor Alan Blockey joining US clinical forensic psychologist, joining us
15:44
Speaker 1: out of Birmingham, specializing in criminal and child cases. He
15:50
Speaker 1: is professor, University Alabama, Birmingham. Doctor Blockee, thank you for
15:53
Speaker 1: being with us now. Karen L. Smith was describing a
15:58
Speaker 1: potential emotional attachment the boy by the person who left
16:03
Speaker 1: the body there. The only reason I'm remotely interested in
16:07
Speaker 1: emotional attachments to this child that was so horribly abandoned
16:12
Speaker 1: is can it be included to tell me who did this?
16:15
Speaker 1: But I'm wondering, Doctor Blockey, who would leave their child
16:19
Speaker 1: like that? Again? Let me harken back to top mom
16:24
Speaker 1: Casey Anthony and one of her many and varied defenses
16:28
Speaker 1: was that little Kelly died in a swimming pool unattended,
16:33
Speaker 1: and that her grandfather, George Anthony, fished her out. And then,
16:38
Speaker 1: as opposed to calling nine one one, this former cop
16:42
Speaker 1: just decided that he would put in a trash bag
16:45
Speaker 1: and throw here in the woods. Okay, that didn't happen.
16:48
Speaker 1: George Anthony did not do that. If this child had died, naturally,
16:53
Speaker 1: wouldn't the guardian the parent call nine one one. Why
16:59
Speaker 1: would you your child in a suitcase and leave it
17:03
Speaker 1: in the woods unless there was a nefarious aspect to
17:07
Speaker 1: the death. Well, I mean, you're right, it certainly sounds
17:10
Speaker 1: like it's a nefarious kind of thing. Of course, what
17:13
Speaker 1: this child Donald died from is going to be critical.
17:18
Speaker 1: I guess you could say the parents panicked. I mean,
17:20
Speaker 1: maybe that's the best spend you can put on. At best,
17:24
Speaker 1: they panicked, But it certainly makes no sense. It's certainly
17:27
Speaker 1: throwing out the trash. Oh gosh, when you said that,
17:31
Speaker 1: it just hurt me. And you're right. To them, it
17:35
Speaker 1: was like throwing out the trash. I'm going to follow
17:38
Speaker 1: up on what doctor Alan Black he just told us,
17:40
Speaker 1: But speaking c o d take a listen to Demi
17:46
Speaker 1: Johnson WISHTV. State police say the young child was around
17:52
Speaker 1: five years old based on a dental examination. Hole says, Unfortunately,
17:56
Speaker 1: the boy's autopsy did not give police the clarity they
18:00
Speaker 1: were hoping for, but it does tell them the boy
18:02
Speaker 1: had been in someone's recent care. The autopsy did confirmed
18:06
Speaker 1: that we're talking about a death probably within the past week. Now.
18:10
Speaker 1: We're not talking about skeletal remains or anything like that.
18:13
Speaker 1: You know, the fact that the autopsy doesn't reveal any
18:16
Speaker 1: cause of death, and the fact that it's only you know,
18:19
Speaker 1: days old since that horrific event occurred says a lot.
18:24
Speaker 1: You know, as far as what we found. Obviously somebody
18:26
Speaker 1: cared for him. That whoever that is isn't coming forward
18:29
Speaker 1: for whatever reason. There's more than one reason that could be.
18:32
Speaker 1: State police tell me they've receiemed about five hundred calls
18:35
Speaker 1: on the case, but they want to remind people to
18:38
Speaker 1: not call them about children already listed as missing around
18:42
Speaker 1: the country. They're already investigating those cases. To doctor Michelle
18:47
Speaker 1: Dupre joining us, we typically hear about an identification made
18:51
Speaker 1: through DNA or fingerprints on children. You don't have fingerprints.
18:57
Speaker 1: I don't know why they still do footprints at the
19:00
Speaker 1: hospital as opposed to fingerprints, but they do so there's
19:04
Speaker 1: no way to track the child through fingerprints. Here we
19:09
Speaker 1: hear a dental exam. Now, while it's not identifying who
19:14
Speaker 1: the child is, what's the point of the dental exam? Well, Nancy,
19:19
Speaker 1: we'll do a dental exam so that if and when
19:22
Speaker 1: a suspected childless, someone might suspay that this child is,
19:26
Speaker 1: then we can compare general records with that person. But
19:29
Speaker 1: without a comparison, the dental exam is really useless. We're
19:33
Speaker 1: hoping to gain a comparison with some child found or
19:35
Speaker 1: reporting missing in the future. Doctor du print, Why don't
19:38
Speaker 1: hospitals do fingerprints as opposed to a footprint? Nancy, I
19:42
Speaker 1: do not know. I think that's an excellent thing to do,
19:44
Speaker 1: as well as do DNA. I think they should do
19:46
Speaker 1: DNA and fingerprints. Now, fingerprints never changed during our home lifetime,
19:50
Speaker 1: and no two fingerprints are the same exactly. So if
19:53
Speaker 1: you have an adult print, if you find an adult,
19:57
Speaker 1: can the adult fingerprint be matched to a child fingerprint? Oftentimes,
20:02
Speaker 1: of course it's going to be larger, But there are
20:04
Speaker 1: certain distinguishing characteristics we call them points that very well,
20:08
Speaker 1: would be in the child finger print as well as
20:10
Speaker 1: in the adult fingerprints. You know, doctor Duprie, let me
20:13
Speaker 1: ask you this as well. We just heard from police
20:17
Speaker 1: sources that the child had only been in the suitcase
20:21
Speaker 1: for a few days. How can you tell that, Nancy.
20:24
Speaker 1: We can tell that by the state of the body,
20:27
Speaker 1: the amount of decomposition or not, the way that that
20:30
Speaker 1: body decomposes in that type of atmosphere, because it was
20:35
Speaker 1: left outside, because it was in a suitcase, because it
20:38
Speaker 1: is warm weather, decomposition is going to happen faster. So
20:42
Speaker 1: we take all of those things into account when we
20:44
Speaker 1: determine the time of death. Joining me, Max Lewis, reporter
20:47
Speaker 1: of Fox fifty nine out of Indianapolis. Max, again, thank
20:50
Speaker 1: you for being with us. You heard doctor Michelle Duprie
20:54
Speaker 1: respond to my question by mentioning the weather. What is
21:00
Speaker 1: the weather in that area at this time of the year.
21:04
Speaker 1: It still would have probably been cool. I would say
21:06
Speaker 1: the average high in a day would be fifty degrees,
21:09
Speaker 1: maybe into the low sixties, and overnight it could you
21:13
Speaker 1: get down into the high thirties and possibly into even
21:16
Speaker 1: the freezing temperatures. We might have been a little bit
21:18
Speaker 1: out of freezing range at that point. But I think
21:21
Speaker 1: that could you know, affect things. I'll let the experts
21:23
Speaker 1: speak to that as far as temperature wise, right right,
21:26
Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupray? Does that support or distract from your theory? Okay?
21:30
Speaker 1: It actually supports it because the body would have been
21:33
Speaker 1: in a closed container, which means it's probably going to
21:36
Speaker 1: be protected somewhat from the environment, and the fact that
21:39
Speaker 1: it doesn't get down too terribly low is still going
21:42
Speaker 1: to make that sort of a warm weather environment. So yes,
21:45
Speaker 1: it's it's still accurate. You know. Mix lewis joining me
21:48
Speaker 1: from Fox fifty nine Indian Apples. So I'm very surprised
21:52
Speaker 1: that the police are not releasing the outfit the little
21:56
Speaker 1: boy was wearing. And I'll tell you why, because when
22:02
Speaker 1: the twins were this age, I had special T shirts
22:06
Speaker 1: for them, a little out matching out fitz Lucy at
22:11
Speaker 1: that time still always wore a bow before she broke
22:15
Speaker 1: my heart and quit wearing those I always had. John
22:18
Speaker 1: David was obsessed with dinosaurs and t Hue trains. A
22:22
Speaker 1: lot of his and cars, a lot of his clothing
22:25
Speaker 1: had that emblazoned on the front. Any idea why they're
22:29
Speaker 1: keeping that a secret, Max Lewis, So what they've told
22:32
Speaker 1: us is that they are keeping the boys clothes, they're
22:37
Speaker 1: keeping the book, not releasing the voice close because they
22:40
Speaker 1: don't want to disrupt or compromise the integrity of the investigation.
22:44
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm not a police officer. I
22:46
Speaker 1: don't know why police do what they do. But like
22:48
Speaker 1: you said, it seems like that would be really helpful
22:51
Speaker 1: in identifying this boy. But I'll leave it to them
22:54
Speaker 1: to decide. You're right, Max Lewis, Karen Smith, there are
22:57
Speaker 1: reasons sometimes at police withhold peculiar facts in a case
23:03
Speaker 1: that only the killer would know. So when they catch
23:07
Speaker 1: the killer, if and when he or she gives a statement,
23:11
Speaker 1: you match it up to what has been with held
23:13
Speaker 1: from the public to see if it's really the killer
23:15
Speaker 1: or if it's just a nut making a false confession. However,
23:19
Speaker 1: what we need to identify this child, this little boy,
23:23
Speaker 1: there's just like put in a suitcase and like I said,
23:25
Speaker 1: left like an old pair of pajamas out in a
23:27
Speaker 1: suitcase right in the woods. I don't see how this
23:30
Speaker 1: is really helping them to withhold that evidence. Well, yeah,
23:33
Speaker 1: I'm on the fence with it and I think the
23:35
Speaker 1: reason that they're doing it is they don't want an
23:37
Speaker 1: influx of false leads taking the investigators off the track.
23:41
Speaker 1: But if the public doesn't know what kind of clothes
23:43
Speaker 1: this child was wearing, it makes it difficult for the
23:46
Speaker 1: public to help. So it's kind of a catch. Twenty
23:49
Speaker 1: two Nancy, a little boy just five years old, left
23:53
Speaker 1: dead in a suitcase out in the middle of the woods,
23:56
Speaker 1: halfway between Indianapolis and Louisville by a mushroom hunter that
24:02
Speaker 1: seemingly and I'll go out on a limb, is not involved.
24:07
Speaker 1: He's actually a good samaritan that calls and the discovery.
24:11
Speaker 1: When I heard his voice describing what he found, I
24:15
Speaker 1: thought immediately he was not involved. So what do we know?
24:19
Speaker 1: Take a listen now to Tom Lalley, whas eleven, a
24:23
Speaker 1: boy found dead in southern Indiana, remains nameless. His story
24:27
Speaker 1: and the suit case he was found in have gained
24:30
Speaker 1: national attention, hundreds of tips submitted, and still no answers
24:35
Speaker 1: except for one. We now know how the boy died.
24:39
Speaker 1: At this time, there's no evidence that leads investigators to
24:42
Speaker 1: believe that he was alive when he went into the
24:44
Speaker 1: suit case. Sergeant Carrie Hooles says investigators got the autopsy
24:48
Speaker 1: and toxicology reports on May twentieth. Seven days later, they
24:52
Speaker 1: share this unnamed boy died from an electrolyte imbalance, most
24:57
Speaker 1: likely due to gastro enteritis, which in common Layman's term
25:01
Speaker 1: would be vomiting and diarrhea, and that resulted in dehydration
25:05
Speaker 1: fetal dehydration, and he says the toxicology rapport found nothing significant.
25:11
Speaker 1: Straight out to you, doctor Michelle Dupree, translate please, Nancy.
25:15
Speaker 1: Gastro enter iris. Enteritis is a viral infection, mostly commonly
25:19
Speaker 1: caused stomach flude. And the problem with this is that
25:22
Speaker 1: it does cause vomiting and diarrhea. And the problem with
25:25
Speaker 1: that is that you use up electrolytes, you get rid
25:28
Speaker 1: of those. And electrolytes are very narrowly balanced in our system.
25:32
Speaker 1: They control things like even our heart rate, our blood pressure.
25:36
Speaker 1: So when those are depleted from nausea and vomiting and diarrhea,
25:40
Speaker 1: then we may go into a cardiacorythea, we may become dehydrated,
25:44
Speaker 1: and then that causes that cardiacorythm okay, let's follow this through.
25:48
Speaker 1: Katherine Mars joining me. Special Victims liaison for the State
25:51
Speaker 1: Attorney's Office there in Charles County. Catherine, again, thank you
25:55
Speaker 1: for being with us. So let's go with what we know.
25:57
Speaker 1: The cod is mass of vomiting and diarrhea, gastro oritis.
26:04
Speaker 1: What does that tell you about who left this boy
26:08
Speaker 1: his body folded up in a suitcase? It says welcome
26:12
Speaker 1: to the fabulous Las Vegas on the front of it. Well,
26:14
Speaker 1: it tells me that I need to start looking at
26:16
Speaker 1: neglect of the child, because if the child was this ill,
26:21
Speaker 1: that the child died from the electrolyte deficiency or dehydration,
26:25
Speaker 1: that means he wasn't getting proper care while he wasn't
26:28
Speaker 1: while he was sick, or he wasn't taken to a doctor,
26:31
Speaker 1: he wasn't being given fluids by his caregivers. So that
26:34
Speaker 1: tells me that there is an outside component to his
26:37
Speaker 1: death that I need to look at as well. It
26:39
Speaker 1: also tells me, Katherine Morris, that this may have been
26:42
Speaker 1: someone that was afraid that the boy died on their
26:47
Speaker 1: watch and that they would go to jail. Now, who
26:52
Speaker 1: would that be? A mom or dad that had had
26:55
Speaker 1: trouble with defacts from my family Shoulder's services before some
27:00
Speaker 1: that they have had a criminal history or just a
27:03
Speaker 1: neglectful parent that feels they'd be the one that got
27:07
Speaker 1: in trouble. Of course they would be. They let this
27:11
Speaker 1: boy die. A five year old little boy. You couldn't
27:15
Speaker 1: have been any guitar than what Jackie three feet or so?
27:19
Speaker 1: Five years old. Now, my question, Max lewis the Fox
27:24
Speaker 1: fifty nine. Have police drawn and released a composite sketch
27:29
Speaker 1: of the boy? No, Nancy, they haven't. That's another thing
27:33
Speaker 1: that people have been asking about. You know, at least
27:36
Speaker 1: give us something more, because clearly what they've released so
27:38
Speaker 1: far is not working. It's not helped identify this boy.
27:42
Speaker 1: And they're still basically went back at the drawing board.
27:46
Speaker 1: And so that's a lot of what a lot of
27:47
Speaker 1: people are asking. But they haven't done it. They again
27:50
Speaker 1: are citing compromising the investigation. I'll leave that to the
27:54
Speaker 1: expert to decide whether or not that is true or not,
27:57
Speaker 1: but we'll see. Okay, that's total bs. Look, I know,
28:03
Speaker 1: Max Lewis, it's not your message. You're just the messenger.
28:07
Speaker 1: But step one is identifying the boy. We need a
28:10
Speaker 1: composite sketch. Take a listen to our cut twelve this
28:13
Speaker 1: is todmaleh a s. As this search continues, we know
28:18
Speaker 1: police are able to release a composite or photo of
28:21
Speaker 1: the boy and have chosen not to the description of
28:24
Speaker 1: this boy could apply to so many people. Why not
28:26
Speaker 1: release a rendering or what kind of closed the child
28:29
Speaker 1: was wear? Right? And that's been discussed. But again, the
28:31
Speaker 1: main thing is if somebody knows of a child who
28:33
Speaker 1: fits the description that's missing, they need to give the call.
28:36
Speaker 1: Having a picture shouldn't make somebody all of a sudden recall,
28:40
Speaker 1: oh that child if they know a child who's missing.
28:42
Speaker 1: But what if they wouldn't know the child is missing,
28:44
Speaker 1: but they could recognize the child. Well. Again, again there's
28:47
Speaker 1: many different reasons. But sometimes you know, diagrams, drawings, Sometimes
28:52
Speaker 1: those renderings can lead to misconceptions as well. So it
28:57
Speaker 1: can open up at Pandora's box of people saying, well,
28:59
Speaker 1: I thought this child when possibly not so at this
29:02
Speaker 1: time they fill us in the best interests of the
29:04
Speaker 1: case not to do that. Two. Karen L. Smith joining me,
29:08
Speaker 1: forensics expert, joining side of LA. This isn't exactly right.
29:13
Speaker 1: A composite, as we are calling it, is typically made
29:17
Speaker 1: when you can't get a full facial Okay, Here, like
29:22
Speaker 1: a photograph, you make it based on an or several eyewitnesses.
29:28
Speaker 1: Here we have the boy. His body is still intact.
29:34
Speaker 1: It's not like a drawing. It's going to be that
29:36
Speaker 1: far off from the child. In fact, they may have
29:40
Speaker 1: been able to actually take a picture of the child
29:43
Speaker 1: and enhance it to make it look as if it
29:47
Speaker 1: were in life. I don't get how they're saying, Oh,
29:51
Speaker 1: a composite would open up a Pandora's box of false leads.
29:57
Speaker 1: Hey they need something. Yeah, I don't under stand that
30:00
Speaker 1: at all. A composite sketch or a composite drawing can
30:04
Speaker 1: lead to people. You know. Yes, you may not say
30:06
Speaker 1: yes I know this missing boy, but you may say,
30:09
Speaker 1: you know, I saw this little boy with so and so.
30:13
Speaker 1: It looks familiar to me. None of that makes sense.
30:16
Speaker 1: And you know the clothing I said I was on
30:18
Speaker 1: the fence. The composite drawing. I don't understand that at all.
30:21
Speaker 1: M Okay, guys, take a listen now to our friend
30:24
Speaker 1: Katrina Nikkel at w d RB, just off a rural
30:29
Speaker 1: road in Washington County. One answer can be added to
30:33
Speaker 1: a long list of questions that remain in the cause
30:37
Speaker 1: of death of the young male as electrolyte imbalance. According
30:41
Speaker 1: to IP. The autopsy results say vomiting and diarrhea likely
30:45
Speaker 1: resulted in severe dehydration. It's a very odd tragic case.
30:50
Speaker 1: Medical director for Norton Children's Hospital, Mark McDonald explains that
30:54
Speaker 1: a death related to electrolyte imbalance leads to organ slowly
30:59
Speaker 1: shutting down. You don't really know what's going on. You don't,
31:03
Speaker 1: you're delirious, and you eventually become unconscious and to die
31:07
Speaker 1: from something likes of your dehydration is uncommon for a
31:11
Speaker 1: young child, who police believe is a five year old
31:13
Speaker 1: boy and can take days. The only circumstance I would
31:18
Speaker 1: think that a younger child could become so dehydrated they
31:23
Speaker 1: passed away would be if they were really by themselves,
31:26
Speaker 1: you know, if they were left alone, it didn't have
31:28
Speaker 1: the means to help themselves or have someone around to
31:31
Speaker 1: help them. That is exactly what you were saying, Katherine
31:36
Speaker 1: Marsh Catherine, Special Victims Liaison. This child was horribly neglected
31:42
Speaker 1: and you just heard the cop hit the nail on
31:45
Speaker 1: the head. The child was alone and died as one
31:50
Speaker 1: organ after the next shut down. That's correct. And it's
31:55
Speaker 1: the heartbreaking thing, especially when you heard him say this
31:58
Speaker 1: kind of death would have taken days. So we had
32:00
Speaker 1: a child who suffered for days, and then after that
32:04
Speaker 1: suffering was pulled it up, put in a suitcase and
32:07
Speaker 1: disposed on the side of the road. Crime Stories with
32:23
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, doctor Michelle Dupray joining me. What would this
32:32
Speaker 1: child have gone through as each organ shut down, massive
32:37
Speaker 1: diarrhea so weak you probably couldn't even get up and
32:40
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom, vomiting all alone, Nancy. He would
32:44
Speaker 1: have obviously been very tired, probably had a fever, very
32:48
Speaker 1: sore muscles, abdominal pain again, the diarrhea, dehydration, bloody stools.
32:54
Speaker 1: He would have basically become unconscious and then succumbed to death. Guys,
32:58
Speaker 1: I'm looking in his suitcase, and if you look at
33:00
Speaker 1: it very carefully, it's abundantly clear this is not something
33:05
Speaker 1: that was just bought for this purpose. I've been examining
33:09
Speaker 1: it very closely. The wheels are old and worn out,
33:16
Speaker 1: that the suitcase therefore is old and worn out. But
33:23
Speaker 1: isn't it true? Karen Smith Forensi's expert that the brand
33:29
Speaker 1: of suitcase can be identified and it can be figured
33:33
Speaker 1: out where it was sold. Isn't that true? Yes, it
33:36
Speaker 1: is absolutely. You can find out the manufacturers and you
33:40
Speaker 1: can find out the stores where it is sold. Now
33:43
Speaker 1: that's kind of like finding a needle in a haystack,
33:46
Speaker 1: but it is a lead that needs to be followed,
33:48
Speaker 1: and Nancy, I'd just like to say this, finding the
33:51
Speaker 1: identity of this boy is paramount. I suggest taking the
33:56
Speaker 1: victim's DNA from his autosity and putting it into public
34:00
Speaker 1: genealogical and ancestral DNA databases to see if any distant
34:03
Speaker 1: relatives have submitted their DNA to those public records. Try
34:07
Speaker 1: to find a partial matching work back from there. As
34:10
Speaker 1: little boys DNA is not going to be in CODEUS,
34:12
Speaker 1: the Combined DNA index system that's used for criminal cases,
34:16
Speaker 1: but there may be a lead in those ancestral databases.
34:20
Speaker 1: It'll take time, but it's worth a shot. We have
34:22
Speaker 1: to find out his identity. It's called genetic genealogy. And
34:27
Speaker 1: while you people will often say, well don't you have
34:30
Speaker 1: a fingerprint or don't you have DNA from the victim, Well, yes,
34:35
Speaker 1: that's not that hard to get. But then the question
34:39
Speaker 1: is who you're going to match it too. Example, say
34:43
Speaker 1: in a rape case they're semen. You can get the
34:46
Speaker 1: DNA from the semen, but you've got to figure out
34:49
Speaker 1: whose is it, and that is where databases, DNA databases
34:56
Speaker 1: come into play. If the perp as a criminal history
35:01
Speaker 1: and has given his or her DNA or their fingerprints,
35:05
Speaker 1: then you can match up. Otherwise the millions and millions
35:10
Speaker 1: of people that could be the part. You have to
35:13
Speaker 1: have something to match it too. So in this case,
35:16
Speaker 1: you would take the child's DNA and do an ancestral
35:21
Speaker 1: DNA match genetic genealogy, and sometimes you have to go
35:25
Speaker 1: way back, say the eighteen hundreds, and you get a
35:29
Speaker 1: hit to somebody's great great great great great grandfather. Then
35:32
Speaker 1: you follow it down, follow it down all the way
35:35
Speaker 1: down to the here and now the present. Who are
35:38
Speaker 1: the relatives here and now who were in the area
35:42
Speaker 1: who would have had a child this age. That's how
35:46
Speaker 1: you do it. Now there's the other factor. What if
35:48
Speaker 1: this child was in foster care and was not with
35:52
Speaker 1: his genetic parents. Well, guess what, you can still find
35:55
Speaker 1: the parents and then find who had the child in
35:58
Speaker 1: foster care. I want to go back to doctor Alan Blockkey.
36:02
Speaker 1: Clinical forensic psychologists joining us out of Birmingham Doctor Block Giggin,
36:07
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I want to analyze
36:09
Speaker 1: not only he would put a child like top mom
36:12
Speaker 1: casey Anthony did put a child in a plastic bag
36:15
Speaker 1: and throw it in the woods, but who similarly would
36:19
Speaker 1: put their child's dead body in this suitcase and leave
36:24
Speaker 1: it in the woods. And who would stand by and
36:29
Speaker 1: let their child vomit and have diarrhea to the point
36:33
Speaker 1: the child dies as the organs shut down. A child
36:36
Speaker 1: in intense pain. You know, a profoundly neglectful parent, obviously
36:41
Speaker 1: you know, and why they're neglectful. There can be many reasons,
36:45
Speaker 1: substance abuse, mental illness, etc. Etc. But the profoundness is
36:52
Speaker 1: so striking here. And then again, like I said earlier,
36:55
Speaker 1: they put the boy in a suitcase and put it rash.
37:01
Speaker 1: The mindset of whoever did this is cold and calculated
37:08
Speaker 1: and cruel a five year old little boy. Think of
37:12
Speaker 1: your child at that young age. Take a listen to
37:18
Speaker 1: our Frank Katrina Nickel at the b DRM ISP does
37:22
Speaker 1: believe the boy was already dead when put in the suitcase,
37:25
Speaker 1: and previously said the boy was likely found within about
37:28
Speaker 1: a week from dying. He appeared to be at least
37:32
Speaker 1: somewhat cared for, so that's again not what you expect.
37:38
Speaker 1: Autopsy results also revealed the boy was an average height
37:41
Speaker 1: and wait for a five year old, and a toxicology
37:44
Speaker 1: report came back negative. As far as just who this
37:47
Speaker 1: boy is, where he's from, who left him in the suitcase,
37:52
Speaker 1: it's all a mystery of the documented children that are
37:54
Speaker 1: missing on the Missing Children's list across the country. At
37:57
Speaker 1: this point, there's no match on any child that's list
38:00
Speaker 1: as missing. ISP will not release a rendering or drawing
38:04
Speaker 1: of the boy at this time. Sometimes those renderings can
38:07
Speaker 1: lead to misconceptions as well. They fill us in the
38:10
Speaker 1: best interests of the case not to do that, police said.
38:12
Speaker 1: Detectives on the case are utilizing any information they have
38:16
Speaker 1: with all available technology. You know, we've had many cases
38:21
Speaker 1: when we throw this out to Katherine Marsh, many cases
38:24
Speaker 1: where we have tried to identify a child. Sometimes these
38:28
Speaker 1: cases go cold and it's decades later that the child
38:32
Speaker 1: is identified and there's no way to bring the killer
38:36
Speaker 1: to justice. What do you advise, Catherine, so this case
38:41
Speaker 1: doesn't go cold. I think I'd start with what so
38:44
Speaker 1: many people on this panel have said, I think it's
38:46
Speaker 1: imperative to get the composite sketch or the picture of
38:50
Speaker 1: this young victim out there. I think we need to
38:53
Speaker 1: know what he looks like, because then we can start
38:56
Speaker 1: moving forward with identifying him and building the blocks of
39:00
Speaker 1: the last moments of his life or the last time
39:02
Speaker 1: somebody saw him. What we know is in six weeks,
39:06
Speaker 1: nobody's reported a child missing to the police that fit
39:10
Speaker 1: his description. So it's not going to come from the caregivers.
39:14
Speaker 1: It needs to come from people in the community. We
39:16
Speaker 1: need to get what he looks like out you know.
39:18
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Remember Karen Smith the House of Horrors
39:23
Speaker 1: in California, that Turpin parents seems treated their children so horribly.
39:27
Speaker 1: They had many children. Not one neighbor reported never seeing
39:35
Speaker 1: the children. Nobody said a thing, So I doubt very
39:39
Speaker 1: seriously that neighbors or anybody in the community is going
39:42
Speaker 1: to come forward. What's our best chance at this point?
39:46
Speaker 1: I have two suggestions. One would be to consider using
39:49
Speaker 1: what's called wet vacuum technology, like an m VAC. These
39:53
Speaker 1: can extract really minute samples of DNA that might not
39:57
Speaker 1: be recoverable by standard methods like SWA or taping. These
40:01
Speaker 1: wet vacuums spray a buffer onto the substrate and then
40:04
Speaker 1: pull everything out into a bottle. This can find other
40:08
Speaker 1: sources of DNA that are not the victims, so that
40:11
Speaker 1: may be a lead another one, and this is a
40:13
Speaker 1: little bit of a wide net. But there may be
40:16
Speaker 1: spores or pollen or other fauna present on his clothes
40:20
Speaker 1: or in that suitcase that are foreign to the area
40:22
Speaker 1: where he was found. That can give investigators an area
40:26
Speaker 1: of focus, so they might want to contact a forenic
40:28
Speaker 1: botanist to consult on microscopic analysis of that clothing to
40:33
Speaker 1: see if there's any unusual plant material from a specific
40:36
Speaker 1: state or region or even other country. Nancy, we don't
40:40
Speaker 1: know where this little boy is from. He may not
40:43
Speaker 1: be from the United States, which may be why the
40:46
Speaker 1: person who left him there didn't consult a doctor. I'm
40:49
Speaker 1: not giving an excuse. It's disgusting, but you know, I'm
40:52
Speaker 1: just going to go out on a limb and say
40:54
Speaker 1: he was from the US. Okay, someone that lived in
40:59
Speaker 1: or had visited Vegas, someone that was familiar with this
41:02
Speaker 1: area and new to dump the body there. I would
41:06
Speaker 1: also be interested in the clothing where it came from
41:09
Speaker 1: what store, what mall in this country to give me
41:12
Speaker 1: an idea of where the purp lives as well as
41:15
Speaker 1: did the boy have on shoes? Because on those shoes
41:19
Speaker 1: would be a wealth of forensic evidence. Agreed tipline eight
41:24
Speaker 1: one two two four, eight four three seven four or
41:27
Speaker 1: toll free eight hundred eight seven two sixty seven forty three.
41:32
Speaker 1: We wait as justice and falls Nancy Grace Crimes Story,
41:36
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend,