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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The House Is Gone - The Idaho Student Murders · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. It doesn't come about
0:21
Speaker 1: with me as a result of age. It is something
0:24
Speaker 1: that has plagued me my entire life, and that is
0:27
Speaker 1: a curiosity regarding places. I love to try to understand
0:33
Speaker 1: the origin of places and the things that occupied a
0:37
Speaker 1: particular space. I like to drive down the road, particularly
0:41
Speaker 1: through old neighborhoods from New Orleans, as many of you
0:44
Speaker 1: guys know, and there are a lot of old dwellings there.
0:47
Speaker 1: Sometimes though, I am as fascinated by what is not
0:52
Speaker 1: there as I am by what is there, because you're
0:57
Speaker 1: left wondering if you have a space, let's say, for instance,
1:02
Speaker 1: in an old neighborhood, what had occupied that space, what
1:06
Speaker 1: lives were lived there? Every place does, in fact have
1:10
Speaker 1: a story. Today on bodybags, we're going to step back
1:14
Speaker 1: for a second to November of twenty twenty two, to
1:20
Speaker 1: just off campus at the University of Idaho, where there
1:25
Speaker 1: was a dwelling, an odd dwelling shaped in a bizarre
1:32
Speaker 1: fashion because it had been added on to over the
1:35
Speaker 1: years to accommodate students, and now in the present it
1:41
Speaker 1: is no more. Today we're going to discuss the demolition
1:47
Speaker 1: of the home or for University of Idaho students were murdered.
1:53
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body backs here
2:02
Speaker 1: we are. The house is gone. It's been called many things,
2:06
Speaker 1: a house of horrors, it was called off campus housing,
2:11
Speaker 1: it was called the spot of a multiple homicide. But
2:14
Speaker 1: it the dwelling, the physical structure exists no longer.
2:18
Speaker 2: I think that's a shame.
2:19
Speaker 1: It really is.
2:20
Speaker 3: Not for any preian interest or horror story thing. It's
2:24
Speaker 3: just that on November thirteenth of twenty twenty two, Xana
2:28
Speaker 3: kernodle Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, and Kaylee Gonzalvez were murdered
2:35
Speaker 3: inside this home. And we don't have a conviction of
2:40
Speaker 3: the murderer yet. This is still a crime scene to me.
2:44
Speaker 3: We haven't had a trial, and now they have removed
2:47
Speaker 3: the opportunity for if I was a juror, I'd want
2:50
Speaker 3: to go see the space. How do you tell the
2:53
Speaker 3: story of what happened if you don't have the space, Joe,
2:57
Speaker 3: do you expect me to use my imagination? We're not
2:59
Speaker 3: all that good. Three D photos are fine, video is fine,
3:03
Speaker 3: movies are fine, but they're not the same as seeing
3:06
Speaker 3: it with your own two eyes, touching it with your
3:08
Speaker 3: own two hands. I don't see how this makes any sense.
3:13
Speaker 1: I don't either, you know, And I know, look, I
3:16
Speaker 1: know the counter to this is going to be, well,
3:19
Speaker 1: you don't understand. We've got the technology now that they
3:23
Speaker 1: went in with, probably what's referred to as a Pharaoh
3:26
Speaker 1: system FA r O, which is the electronic or digital
3:30
Speaker 1: mapping system that's got the you know, the mirrors, and
3:34
Speaker 1: it spins and it's taking thousands of images. But let
3:39
Speaker 1: me back up just a second. You know, we don't
3:42
Speaker 1: live that far apart. And I'll tell you what. I'll
3:47
Speaker 1: go get in my car. We'll go half on gas
3:51
Speaker 1: and half on food. All right, I'll come and pick
3:53
Speaker 1: you up, and we're gonna make a drive. We're gonna
3:55
Speaker 1: drive to We're gonna drive to Massachusetts. Okay, it's gonna
4:00
Speaker 1: be kind of a long drive. But you know, you
4:03
Speaker 1: and I we we like to yammor with one another.
4:06
Speaker 1: So yeah, uh, And did you know that right now,
4:10
Speaker 1: if we took the time, we could go hoping my
4:13
Speaker 1: old jelopie and provided it would get us up there,
4:18
Speaker 1: we could drive not just to Massachusetts, we could drive
4:22
Speaker 1: to Fall River, Massachusetts, and I could take you right
4:27
Speaker 1: now to the home where Andrew and Abby Borden were
4:35
Speaker 1: killed allegedly by Lizzie Borden on August fourth, eighteen ninety two.
4:47
Speaker 1: That structure is still standing. I could, I could take
4:50
Speaker 1: you there right.
4:52
Speaker 3: Lizzie Borden took an act, gave her mother forty one.
4:55
Speaker 1: I saw what she'd done.
4:56
Speaker 2: She gave her father forty one. I'm looking at it.
4:58
Speaker 3: That's I had to look it up because I remember
5:00
Speaker 3: them doing I remember as a child doing little rhymes
5:03
Speaker 3: and things like that. And yet that was the horror
5:06
Speaker 3: scene that we were all growing up to. I'm not
5:09
Speaker 3: saying that it's funny that that happened. But okay, allegedly
5:15
Speaker 3: did it not happen? Did they not get killed with
5:17
Speaker 3: an axe?
5:17
Speaker 1: They did get killed, But Lizzie was never convicted of it.
5:21
Speaker 1: You know, she was convicted in the I think by
5:24
Speaker 1: the public. Maybe she did. I have no idea, but
5:27
Speaker 1: that physical structure.
5:29
Speaker 3: Still there, and we could actually book a room, yeah
5:31
Speaker 3: we could. They've turned it into a little B and B.
5:35
Speaker 1: Isn't that something? And look, don't misconstrue what I'm saying.
5:39
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that this should be some kind of
5:42
Speaker 1: oddity a side show. You said it right, just a
5:45
Speaker 1: moment ago about that this structure is gone forever and ever.
5:50
Speaker 1: Amen that if you and I watched it, I have
5:54
Speaker 1: to I have to admit I did. I watched. One
5:57
Speaker 1: of my friends was covering this and she kind of
6:01
Speaker 1: narrated the process and it had a I think it
6:04
Speaker 1: was like a time lapse or something, and I watched
6:08
Speaker 1: square foot by square foot of you know, they've they've
6:11
Speaker 1: got the they've got the big equipment out there. They're
6:14
Speaker 1: taking this thing down floor by floor, and it's taken
6:17
Speaker 1: against against the protest of the families, right. They did
6:22
Speaker 1: not want this to go away. Let me ask you this,
6:26
Speaker 1: would you or would you not agree that there are
6:31
Speaker 1: horrible homicides that occur in our country day in and
6:35
Speaker 1: day out. I know you know this. You know it
6:37
Speaker 1: better than I do, because you cover more of them,
6:39
Speaker 1: because you work with Nancy so much. I mean, you
6:41
Speaker 1: you this stuff. I don't know if my my fans
6:44
Speaker 1: understand what this man does. But every single day he
6:48
Speaker 1: sits and he studies, he studied. Can you imagine, folks,
6:52
Speaker 1: if you if you've spent all of your time studying cases,
6:56
Speaker 1: there are many cases that you guys never hear about.
6:58
Speaker 1: But guess what Dave Mack has to look got them.
7:00
Speaker 1: He sees cases day in and day out. Let me
7:02
Speaker 1: ask something day out of all these cases that you
7:05
Speaker 1: cover and all of this horror that takes place across
7:09
Speaker 1: the nation, across the world, in Nancy's case, because she
7:11
Speaker 1: covers everything, are they going around tearing down crime scenes?
7:17
Speaker 2: Nope?
7:17
Speaker 1: Are they going around tearing down physical structures all the time?
7:20
Speaker 2: No?
7:20
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't understand it. It just it doesn't.
7:24
Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense to me.
7:26
Speaker 3: Not when there's still a trial to go. I could
7:29
Speaker 3: see some justification, Joe, if if there was damage to
7:33
Speaker 3: the structure, or if it became some kind of macabre,
7:38
Speaker 3: which this place. I don't doubt that it had become
7:42
Speaker 3: a bit of a place that crime people would go
7:46
Speaker 3: and look at. I don't doubt that. But I have
7:50
Speaker 3: a problem with it because we don't have a trial.
7:52
Speaker 3: We haven't had, it hasn't gone before. We don't know
7:55
Speaker 3: what happened yet. We know what we think. But you
7:58
Speaker 3: know what, Joe, we only know one side of it.
8:00
Speaker 3: But we only know the side that you and I
8:01
Speaker 3: have been privy to and you've studied it a lot.
8:03
Speaker 3: You've talked about this a lot. I have too, and
8:07
Speaker 3: you and I have both looked at a lot of material.
8:09
Speaker 3: But you know what, we haven't heard everything. And I
8:12
Speaker 3: think that they're doing a disservice to everybody when they
8:17
Speaker 3: do this, to the four people who are dead, to
8:19
Speaker 3: the other two who were in that house the night that.
8:22
Speaker 3: I still have a lot of questions. I'd like to
8:24
Speaker 3: have them answer some questions, and I'd like to have
8:26
Speaker 3: them walk me through where they were, but I can't now, No,
8:30
Speaker 3: I can have them tell me where they were.
8:31
Speaker 1: Look, we have no way of knowing, do we. I mean,
8:34
Speaker 1: we truly don't. We have no way of knowing who
8:36
Speaker 1: the jury members are going to be.
8:38
Speaker 2: Right.
8:38
Speaker 1: It's out in the ether. I mean, there's there's not
8:40
Speaker 1: been a pool that has been a symbol to even
8:43
Speaker 1: select from. At this point in time. All we hear
8:47
Speaker 1: is that it's going you know, we've heard it's going
8:49
Speaker 1: to go to trial this summer, all right now.
8:52
Speaker 3: If they found the knife where they destroyed the knife, Joe.
8:55
Speaker 1: That's an excellent question, because you know we got pictures
8:59
Speaker 1: of it. No, No, we don't.
9:00
Speaker 2: We don't know we've got the sheath that people.
9:04
Speaker 1: Have gone on and on about. You know now, for
9:06
Speaker 1: loath these many months that that scene to me is
9:13
Speaker 1: just as valuable as the to this point, at least
9:17
Speaker 1: the unfound knife or the yet to be discovered knife.
9:22
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remain hopeful in that. But yet you
9:28
Speaker 1: you want to get rid of. And I think the
9:31
Speaker 1: you is the big the big part that you know,
9:33
Speaker 1: who is the you? Because we're hearing that both the
9:38
Speaker 1: prosecution and the defense are in agreement over this. But
9:42
Speaker 1: we all know that it's one thing to say that
9:45
Speaker 1: you're in agreement over it, okay, uh, but anything can
9:50
Speaker 1: be argued after the fact. You know that we weren't
9:53
Speaker 1: given an ample opportunity to do. I still have a memory, Lord,
9:59
Speaker 1: I wish I could remember the date of this, because
10:01
Speaker 1: I've covered the sink for so long, this quadruple homicide.
10:05
Speaker 1: Let's let's re anchor ourselves in that. Do you remember
10:10
Speaker 1: this where they had sent the crime scene clean up
10:16
Speaker 1: group to the house and it was around the same
10:20
Speaker 1: time and I can't remember. It was around the same
10:23
Speaker 1: time that Coburger, who is alleged to have committed the homicides,
10:28
Speaker 1: was being arrested. I think he may have still been.
10:33
Speaker 1: Was he still in Pennsylvania at that point in time,
10:35
Speaker 1: And they had said that they were going to clean
10:39
Speaker 1: this place up, and the trucks had pulled up to
10:42
Speaker 1: the door. They were putting up like plastic over the
10:46
Speaker 1: entryway so they could go in and like do whatever
10:49
Speaker 1: the heck it was they were going to do in there,
10:51
Speaker 1: clean the thing up. And his defense team at the time,
10:54
Speaker 1: the people that were represented, said whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
10:56
Speaker 1: We'll hold your horses now, and they wound up being
10:59
Speaker 1: able to get a team out there, you know, to
11:02
Speaker 1: to you know, take a look around. I'm look, I'm
11:05
Speaker 1: not a fan of Brian Koberger. What I'm saying is,
11:08
Speaker 1: you know what, what I'm a fan of is trying
11:12
Speaker 1: to get the jury in touch with with the reality
11:15
Speaker 1: of what happened there.
11:17
Speaker 2: It was a three story building, Joe.
11:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. I love I love the saying and
11:22
Speaker 1: UH that we say in UH in forensics. Many times
11:26
Speaker 1: negative findings are just as important as positive findings, and
11:30
Speaker 1: so those things that you know, you you talk about
11:32
Speaker 1: it being three story, we've got that basement level, which
11:36
Speaker 1: some people call the first floor. You know, the thing
11:39
Speaker 1: is built into the side of a hill. You know
11:42
Speaker 1: what would I'd be interested in knowing if I was
11:45
Speaker 1: a jury member, if I was down on that first floor,
11:50
Speaker 1: could I hear somebody up in the top floor yelling
11:54
Speaker 1: or just talking normally? Because I got to tell you,
11:56
Speaker 1: if I'm a jury member, I'm assuming if I were
11:59
Speaker 1: selected for or these people that are, I'm assuming they've
12:02
Speaker 1: never been to this dwelling. So from an acoustic standpoint,
12:06
Speaker 1: just that alone, I am hoping against hope Dave, that
12:11
Speaker 1: the reason or the rationale for taking this structure down
12:18
Speaker 1: didn't simply come down to the idea that it may
12:23
Speaker 1: have made certain people uncomfortable. It comes down to perspective.
12:46
Speaker 1: We were chatting this second ago about those things that
12:50
Speaker 1: are lost. I still have this memory of and they
12:58
Speaker 1: were onto something too. I think I still have this
13:01
Speaker 1: memory of a reporter walking up to guys in what
13:06
Speaker 1: we used to refer to as either ray jackets or
13:11
Speaker 1: warrant jackets, which are you know, those kind of shells
13:13
Speaker 1: that you see the police officers where it's generally got
13:17
Speaker 1: a panel on the back that identifies who you are.
13:20
Speaker 1: They were out in the brush line, which is to
13:25
Speaker 1: the rear of this structure where the sliders are looking
13:29
Speaker 1: out over that field that kind of gently rose up
13:31
Speaker 1: behind it, and you could see there's like a little
13:33
Speaker 1: tree line back there. And these guys were there was
13:36
Speaker 1: a reporter that walked up and they were in daylight,
13:41
Speaker 1: walked up to these fellows that were kind of perched,
13:44
Speaker 1: and they were squatting, and they were looking through the
13:47
Speaker 1: brush back toward that house. And I know what they
13:49
Speaker 1: were doing. They were trying to get an idea. It's
13:53
Speaker 1: not that they were looking for evidence on the ground.
13:55
Speaker 1: It wasn't that kind of thing. It's like they were
13:57
Speaker 1: trying to perceive what their feeling division was allowing them
14:02
Speaker 1: to see back toward the house, looking from that brush
14:06
Speaker 1: line that's gone, that's gone. I mean, I guess you
14:11
Speaker 1: could call those guys up and say, hey, you know,
14:13
Speaker 1: agent so and so, I want you to testify to
14:16
Speaker 1: what you saw. What was your perception up there? What
14:19
Speaker 1: was your opinion about what you could see? Well, first off,
14:22
Speaker 1: they can't render an opinion about it, and their recollection.
14:27
Speaker 1: I don't really care about.
14:29
Speaker 3: No, because it's perceived. It's there, it's not mine, it's
14:33
Speaker 3: their perspective. It's like d Lee Plaza, right, if I
14:36
Speaker 3: was to go and stand on the grassy knoll behind
14:38
Speaker 3: the fence where I believe there was a shooter position
14:42
Speaker 3: to shoot the President of the United States, if that's
14:45
Speaker 3: you believe, you can go there. You can go to
14:48
Speaker 3: the sixth floor of the school book depository, yes you can.
14:51
Speaker 1: And that's not a great view, but you can go
14:52
Speaker 1: up and you can look through that window. I've done it.
14:54
Speaker 2: It didn't tear it down, but that structure.
14:56
Speaker 1: Still standing, Okay. And I'm not trying to equate the
14:59
Speaker 1: present Mint's assassination. I'm glad you brought this up because
15:02
Speaker 1: acoustics comes into that as well. I'm not trying to
15:06
Speaker 1: equate that with this quadruple homicide that happened in Idaho.
15:11
Speaker 1: But your point is well taken here.
15:15
Speaker 2: I just don't see how you can tear down the evidence.
15:17
Speaker 1: I don't either. And you know, going back to I
15:20
Speaker 1: think one of the most poignant days I've ever been
15:23
Speaker 1: on air was that day where that jury was taken
15:30
Speaker 1: out to Parkland High School. I'll never forget they had
15:34
Speaker 1: they taking the jury out there, And keep in mind,
15:38
Speaker 1: this is years after the fact they had put up
15:40
Speaker 1: chain link fence all around this building. And granted it's
15:42
Speaker 1: a government structure, but hey, you know what that house
15:46
Speaker 1: in Idaho's government structure now too, because why the state
15:49
Speaker 1: university have complete and total control over the thing. But
15:52
Speaker 1: you know, when they took those jury members out to Parkland.
15:56
Speaker 1: You know how though, and I know you do because
15:58
Speaker 1: you've been at this a long time. They choose pool
16:03
Speaker 1: reporters that will go. You know, they just don't let
16:06
Speaker 1: not every single reporter can go, So they choose who's
16:09
Speaker 1: going to go. They'll be like a videographer person, I guess,
16:13
Speaker 1: like you know, like a print journalist, you know what
16:15
Speaker 1: I'm saying. And those journalists I remember that comments from them,
16:21
Speaker 1: and it was it was gut wrenching to hear what
16:25
Speaker 1: they had said because they they went back to that
16:28
Speaker 1: moment in time when that person went into that high
16:36
Speaker 1: school and slaughtered all of those kids, and it transported
16:41
Speaker 1: that the jury members back to that point in time.
16:44
Speaker 1: The game was over at that point, because you know,
16:47
Speaker 1: they were able they were able to kind of connect
16:52
Speaker 1: the reality of that moment frozen in time. There was
16:55
Speaker 1: dried blood still on the ground they had. I'll never
16:58
Speaker 1: forget one of the things because it was on Valentine's Day.
17:00
Speaker 1: You remember they had dried flowers that were kind of
17:06
Speaker 1: falling apart, laying their teddy bears, you know, with like
17:10
Speaker 1: little Valentine's hearts on them, you know, like kids give
17:13
Speaker 1: one another, you know, a Valentine's Day. This stuff was
17:15
Speaker 1: still there, but it was frozen in time, and you
17:19
Speaker 1: get this kind of relationship, physical relationship. And I mean
17:24
Speaker 1: that in the sense of what you're viewing, what you're hearing,
17:30
Speaker 1: even what you're smelling, you know, at that point in time,
17:32
Speaker 1: and it all feeds back into it. Now, I will
17:37
Speaker 1: state this, it's obvious that every single homicide I have
17:41
Speaker 1: ever worked, we did not take Jerry's back out to scenes.
17:45
Speaker 1: It's the rare ones. But I think I could probably
17:50
Speaker 1: convince you to agree with me that this is a
17:52
Speaker 1: rare one. This is something where you've got a major
17:55
Speaker 1: loss of life event in a small, little town. There's
17:58
Speaker 1: a lot riding on this that you want to make
18:00
Speaker 1: sure that you get right, both for not just prosecution,
18:03
Speaker 1: but for the defense as well. And it's not there anymore.
18:05
Speaker 3: You have to account for entry into the building, you
18:09
Speaker 3: have to account for movement inside the building, moving from
18:13
Speaker 3: room to room, upstairs, downstairs, down a hallway, seeing a
18:18
Speaker 3: person you have, the activity, and how big the rooms are,
18:22
Speaker 3: and what's taking place right now. We have some reporting
18:27
Speaker 3: of what we were told happened with some of the victims,
18:32
Speaker 3: whether they were able to fight back or not, whether
18:34
Speaker 3: they're we don't still know. We know what we've been
18:38
Speaker 3: told by certain family members who may have said things
18:40
Speaker 3: that didn't need to come out yet. It'll come out
18:42
Speaker 3: of trial, but we don't know yet. And the jury
18:46
Speaker 3: that is seated is going to have to watch video
18:49
Speaker 3: or to use their imagination now to decide how long
18:53
Speaker 3: it takes to make these steps, How strong does one
18:56
Speaker 3: have to Can one person truly contain this entire environment
19:01
Speaker 3: in a very short window of time, moving up and downstairs,
19:05
Speaker 3: and by the way, actually having a live witness.
19:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, here's the thing. I'm fascinated by this. It
19:17
Speaker 1: was stated early on that whoever had done this had
19:21
Speaker 1: perpetrated this massacre. There's no other way to put it.
19:27
Speaker 1: Had to be familiar. It's such a bizarre layout. I mean,
19:31
Speaker 1: it really is. You and I both are former college students.
19:35
Speaker 1: We've been to off campus housing and you know how
19:38
Speaker 1: weird some of that stuff is because you know, they
19:41
Speaker 1: just kind of add on, they stick things. You know,
19:43
Speaker 1: it's not like you're going out to I don't know,
19:46
Speaker 1: it's not like you're going to standard neighborhood most of
19:48
Speaker 1: the time, where everything makes sense and everything, you know,
19:51
Speaker 1: it looks well ordered. Not you know, they add things
19:54
Speaker 1: on because they're trying to get as many people into
19:56
Speaker 1: a structure as they can to make money. And there's
19:58
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that if you're a land lord. But
20:01
Speaker 1: this thing, you gotta you gotta admit it's bizarre. You know,
20:04
Speaker 1: you got essentially two main entrances for this thing. You
20:07
Speaker 1: got one on the lower that's built into this to
20:09
Speaker 1: the bank where you're walking into the basement, backed by
20:12
Speaker 1: the parking pad, and you got these sliders up there,
20:15
Speaker 1: you got the windows. How is it that you're gonna
20:18
Speaker 1: this thing? When I when I saw Dave and I
20:20
Speaker 1: saw some of the the uh A schematics for you know,
20:24
Speaker 1: how the whole thing, the floor plan rather it is
20:26
Speaker 1: a better way to put it, how it's all laid out,
20:28
Speaker 1: It looks it kind of looked like a maze, like
20:32
Speaker 1: you know, and and not just that, how are you
20:34
Speaker 1: gonna you're talking about something that this is occurring in
20:38
Speaker 1: the wee hours, so it's got to be dark in
20:40
Speaker 1: the dark. You know, how are you going to navigate
20:45
Speaker 1: this environment in the darkness with these weird twisting turns?
20:50
Speaker 1: And from a jury perspective, that's valuable information. How powerful
20:54
Speaker 1: would it be to take a jury out to that
20:57
Speaker 1: location as a matter of fact, from a let's just
21:01
Speaker 1: argue for the defense for a second. Let's just say, look,
21:04
Speaker 1: how do my client do this? You know, he's never
21:07
Speaker 1: been in the building before. Look, you know we're going
21:10
Speaker 1: to turn the lights off now, ladies and gentlemen. Now
21:12
Speaker 1: let's try to make our way up the stairs and
21:15
Speaker 1: try to figure out how easy or difficult this would
21:19
Speaker 1: be to facilitate this. I'm not saying that they would
21:22
Speaker 1: do that, but even if they wanted to, they can't
21:24
Speaker 1: do it now.
21:25
Speaker 3: And here's the other part, Joe, imagine this talking about
21:29
Speaker 3: evidence that they find in the building, which we know
21:31
Speaker 3: they have found some we know they have found DNA,
21:35
Speaker 3: we know where they have found other things inside this
21:37
Speaker 3: building that is going to come up.
21:39
Speaker 1: You think about it from the perspective of the perception
21:45
Speaker 1: of whoever was still housed in the dwelling after these
21:49
Speaker 1: when these events were going on, and if they were
21:52
Speaker 1: an ear witness to these events, how could they not
21:55
Speaker 1: have heard something? And again that opportunity is gone because
21:59
Speaker 1: you don't have well, first off, you don't have there's
22:02
Speaker 1: no way to even perceive it at this point in time.
22:07
Speaker 1: There's no way to appreciate the idea of I think.
22:14
Speaker 1: And this goes to distribution of blood in particular, because
22:18
Speaker 1: one of the things that we do know day that
22:20
Speaker 1: was stated early on and I can't remember if it
22:23
Speaker 1: was the corner who I have a whole other set
22:26
Speaker 1: of issues with, because they were talking early on about
22:30
Speaker 1: this against you know, they were not supposed to be
22:34
Speaker 1: speaking out of turn here they were going they were
22:37
Speaker 1: making these comments, you know, which was shocking to me
22:40
Speaker 1: early on. We do know according to them that this
22:44
Speaker 1: is a very bloody scene. How do you make it
22:47
Speaker 1: through here without deposition of blood in other locations? Because
22:53
Speaker 1: if you're walking through a location that is you know,
22:57
Speaker 1: this is my I'm just inserting this word is in blood.
23:01
Speaker 1: If you're going in and checking out, how is it
23:03
Speaker 1: that you're not tracking trace evidence around? Why is it
23:06
Speaker 1: that there's no other evidence that can point back to
23:10
Speaker 1: an individual? And this goes to I'm not arguing for
23:15
Speaker 1: the accused here. What I am saying, though, is that
23:19
Speaker 1: for anybody that is looking to defend someone, the fact
23:25
Speaker 1: that you can argue in a manner that could do
23:31
Speaker 1: that could greatly benefit your case, because you know what,
23:35
Speaker 1: when there is nothing that you can turn back to,
23:38
Speaker 1: there's always the possibility of planning to see for reasonable doubt.
24:01
Speaker 1: I think that it's important that we look at I
24:04
Speaker 1: would say three areas that I hope that they have
24:11
Speaker 1: effectively documented relative to how they're going to play this
24:17
Speaker 1: narrative out absent the home now, because you know, look,
24:21
Speaker 1: it's one thing if you and I are in a
24:23
Speaker 1: meeting day and I've got a way to illustrate a
24:27
Speaker 1: meeting where you can visually see it, and a lot
24:30
Speaker 1: of it goes to what kind of learner you are?
24:35
Speaker 1: You know, my wife is always thrown around the term
24:37
Speaker 1: that she's a kinesthetic learner, which she you know, hands
24:40
Speaker 1: on that sort of stuff. But you know, if you're
24:42
Speaker 1: a visual learner, you know, I think that we've effectively
24:47
Speaker 1: argued the position here that that opportunity is gone. So
24:50
Speaker 1: what did you do you being the authorities, what did
24:54
Speaker 1: you do at the scene before the place was torn down,
24:57
Speaker 1: to document the place in totality so that you're going
25:01
Speaker 1: to take this and present it to the jury. I
25:06
Speaker 1: actually had one person that came to me and said, well,
25:12
Speaker 1: the FBI is talking about completely restructuring or or doing
25:17
Speaker 1: uh mocking, mocking this building out and recreating the thing.
25:22
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, really that that's that's what they're going
25:25
Speaker 1: to do. They're going to do it digitally. Is that
25:27
Speaker 1: what you're talking about? Well, you maybe you can do
25:30
Speaker 1: that digitally, maybe it'd be wonderful. But I tell you this,
25:34
Speaker 1: if if you think for two seconds this thing is
25:37
Speaker 1: going to be like the Holid deck on the Star
25:39
Speaker 1: trek Uss Enterprise, you're going to be sadly disappointed because
25:44
Speaker 1: it's not going to be like that. You're going to
25:46
Speaker 1: lose all sense of relationship between things. And so I
25:50
Speaker 1: think that we have to first off, understand we've talked
25:52
Speaker 1: about sound, how to sound travel through a structure? How
25:56
Speaker 1: are you going to document that? To entertain possibilities of
25:59
Speaker 1: what could and could not have been heard? We have
26:03
Speaker 1: to think about timing relative to how long would it
26:06
Speaker 1: take from one point from the starting point to make
26:10
Speaker 1: entry into the home. If in fact, and this is
26:13
Speaker 1: a big if because we don't know where the sliders open.
26:18
Speaker 1: Did the perpetrator make entry through the sliders? Was there
26:22
Speaker 1: some other way that they made entry? You know, we
26:25
Speaker 1: talked about the food delivery that was made to Miss Kernodle.
26:28
Speaker 1: How do we know that that didn't play a part
26:30
Speaker 1: in this because that's in a different location than say,
26:33
Speaker 1: for instance, where the sliders are. And then from sliders,
26:38
Speaker 1: how do you make your way through the house? How
26:40
Speaker 1: is it possible? And then I think one of the
26:43
Speaker 1: things that really stands out to me, you know how
26:45
Speaker 1: I was mentioned Parkland just a moment ago, we had
26:48
Speaker 1: they had literally left that scene frozen in time with
26:54
Speaker 1: the distribution of blood and all those sorts of things
26:59
Speaker 1: we're talking about out the deaths of these four young
27:03
Speaker 1: people in their bedrooms, and this goes to the dynamics
27:10
Speaker 1: of blood distribution that's not going to be there if
27:14
Speaker 1: there was blood stains on the wall, for instance, and
27:18
Speaker 1: their dynamic blood stains, which I mean, we're talking about
27:22
Speaker 1: everything from cast off where you're you know, you think
27:25
Speaker 1: about dipping a paint brush in a bucket of painting
27:28
Speaker 1: and throwing it against the wall. That's how it happens.
27:31
Speaker 1: If you take a sharp instrument, dip it in blood
27:33
Speaker 1: and kind of cast it off as you're stabbing or
27:36
Speaker 1: on the ceiling, that's gone arterial spray. If you've clipped
27:40
Speaker 1: an artery and that spraying on the wall, well, where
27:43
Speaker 1: is that in relation to where the body was found?
27:46
Speaker 1: And can you connect those two things? And then you
27:49
Speaker 1: have this issue of transfer blood. Well, if you're talking
27:53
Speaker 1: about an individual that is placing their hands and you're
27:56
Speaker 1: gonna have commingled blood everywhere, commingle which means you've got
28:00
Speaker 1: four victims, you're essentially mixing this blood together as you're
28:05
Speaker 1: going through this process. I talked about this early on,
28:08
Speaker 1: where whoever has the least amount of transferred DNA to
28:14
Speaker 1: their body is probably going to be the first victim. Okay,
28:18
Speaker 1: So if you have victim a that has little or
28:22
Speaker 1: no DNA from another person in the house, say they're
28:26
Speaker 1: on two different floors, you're using the same weapon. Assuming
28:30
Speaker 1: that they're using the same weapon, you're not going to
28:34
Speaker 1: be able to appreciate appreciate the dynamics of how that
28:38
Speaker 1: blood issued forth from the victims. Are they going to
28:43
Speaker 1: take the mattresses from the beds and bring them into
28:45
Speaker 1: the courtroom. That has happened before, That has absolutely happened before.
28:50
Speaker 1: Items from the bedroom. Is that gonna okay, Well, let's
28:53
Speaker 1: say that you do bring in the headboard from a
28:56
Speaker 1: bed and you've got what appears to be blood that
28:59
Speaker 1: has been asked off on it. Okay, you can bring
29:02
Speaker 1: that in there.
29:02
Speaker 2: You're taking that out of content, you are.
29:04
Speaker 1: Taking that out of context, and look, understanding they would
29:08
Speaker 1: have had to have removed the headboard and examined it
29:11
Speaker 1: in the lab. But if you don't have a way
29:16
Speaker 1: a facsimile to demonstrate that, and not just the fac simile,
29:22
Speaker 1: but the physical structure to say, okay, the bed was
29:24
Speaker 1: positioned right here, do you understand, and it's right here
29:28
Speaker 1: in this position we have if you reflect back, we
29:31
Speaker 1: showed you the images here. The images again of the
29:33
Speaker 1: bed and how it's demonstrated are dispersed on the head
29:36
Speaker 1: of the headboard of the bed and it's on the
29:39
Speaker 1: wall adjacent to it. This is what our expert beliefs happened. Well,
29:43
Speaker 1: you can't do that. You can't go back to that,
29:46
Speaker 1: and that's just the dynamic distribution of the blood. What
29:50
Speaker 1: about if we've got passive where people are putting. You know,
29:53
Speaker 1: you're lifting your body, you're transferring blood from your hands
29:57
Speaker 1: because you're trying to leverage your body weight to get
29:59
Speaker 1: out of a place. What about passive dripping, Well, what
30:03
Speaker 1: they're saying is that same weapon involved, well the same
30:05
Speaker 1: weapon involved. If they start on the top floor, come
30:08
Speaker 1: down the stairs, are they dripping blood from the tip
30:12
Speaker 1: of the knife blade or off of their person onto
30:14
Speaker 1: the carpeted surface of the staircase And it leads into
30:19
Speaker 1: where Ethan and Miss kernodle war. Is that that's gone
30:25
Speaker 1: in totality as well. You're not going to be able
30:28
Speaker 1: to appreciate that. Is there a moment where more blood
30:32
Speaker 1: was dripped in one location, like someone's pausing to stop
30:37
Speaker 1: to think that they hear something, and then they progress
30:40
Speaker 1: on and then another attack initiates. Oh that's gone. You
30:44
Speaker 1: don't have that. You don't have it at all.
30:46
Speaker 3: When you and I talked about this earlier, I brought
30:49
Speaker 3: up the case of Jeffrey McDonald, the Yeah Army Green
30:55
Speaker 3: Beret doctor Fatsion.
30:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there you go.
30:59
Speaker 3: February nineteen, he claimed a group of hippies came into
31:03
Speaker 3: his house on base in Fayetville, North Carolina and five
31:07
Speaker 3: point forty four Castle Drive. The reason I know this
31:09
Speaker 3: because I watched the trial very carefully. When it happened
31:11
Speaker 3: nine years after the fact. February nineteen seventy was only
31:15
Speaker 3: months after the Manson murders, the Tayla Bianca murders. Oh,
31:19
Speaker 3: and so there was a lot of talk about this,
31:20
Speaker 3: and many people believe that Jeffrey McDonald got his idea
31:23
Speaker 3: of the hippies from those murders.
31:26
Speaker 1: Right.
31:26
Speaker 3: Jeffery McDonald's pregnant wife, Colette, and his two young daughters,
31:30
Speaker 3: Kimmy and Christy, were both were all three murdered in
31:33
Speaker 3: that house. A pregnant mother and her two small children
31:35
Speaker 3: were murdered in that home, murdered with an ice pick.
31:40
Speaker 3: There was blood everywhere, and that crime scene stood for
31:45
Speaker 3: nine years, Joe, until they could have a trial. They
31:49
Speaker 3: had already gone through the military process, an Article thirty
31:52
Speaker 3: two hearing where they discovered that, okay, McDonald maybe didn't
31:56
Speaker 3: do it. We're not going to further prosecute this. And
31:58
Speaker 3: it was only brought up in criminal court because of
32:01
Speaker 3: Colette's stepfather, Freddy Causab pushing it. And it did go
32:04
Speaker 3: to trial in North Carolina, and Jeffrey McDonald was found
32:07
Speaker 3: guilty of murdering his pregnant wife and his two young daughters.
32:10
Speaker 3: But one of the things that happened it was nine
32:12
Speaker 3: years later. He was a successful doctor in southern California.
32:16
Speaker 3: He was a good looking young guy. People couldn't believe
32:19
Speaker 3: this wonderful, nice man could have ever done. A Green
32:21
Speaker 3: Beret doctor wouldn't kill his family. But the jury, they
32:25
Speaker 3: were able to go back to that house nine years
32:28
Speaker 3: after the murder. They were able to walk into this
32:30
Speaker 3: home to look at the size of it and to imagine,
32:34
Speaker 3: could hippies have really come in here and done this
32:37
Speaker 3: in this small of a space. Neighbors are all very
32:39
Speaker 3: close together, there's patrols going by all the time, the noise,
32:44
Speaker 3: somebody would have heard it. They were able to go
32:46
Speaker 3: through that because the crime scene was still in existence.
32:49
Speaker 3: They were able to see it. No pictures, no drawings.
32:53
Speaker 3: Pictures and drawings, by the way, are there. They have
32:55
Speaker 3: those two. But they actually got to see it with
32:58
Speaker 3: their own eyes. And I think it mattered.
33:01
Speaker 1: It does matter, and it's powerful stuff. It's powerful stuff.
33:05
Speaker 1: Anytime you can introduce the jury into an environment like this,
33:10
Speaker 1: so that they begin to appreciate form and function of
33:13
Speaker 1: a structure where an event took place. You know, if
33:18
Speaker 1: you have a mass homicide that takes place in an
33:22
Speaker 1: open field, it's really hard to appreciate the dynamics of that.
33:26
Speaker 1: It can happen anywhere, you know. It's like, you know,
33:30
Speaker 1: if you go to visit a Civil War battlefield, even
33:33
Speaker 1: if you go to Gettysburg. You know, you believe what
33:38
Speaker 1: they tell you about what happened there, but it's so vast,
33:42
Speaker 1: it's so broad that you can't really understand it in
33:48
Speaker 1: a way that walking into a home where lives have
33:51
Speaker 1: been lived, where parties were had, where people got to
33:57
Speaker 1: know one another and to be friends, that's gone. It's
34:02
Speaker 1: gone forever and ever. And that goes to the heart
34:04
Speaker 1: of this case, because this case was about the relationships
34:09
Speaker 1: that these people, these young people had developed wild college
34:14
Speaker 1: students and the environment that they were in in Idaho,
34:19
Speaker 1: living and learning together. I just hope, I just hope
34:26
Speaker 1: that the right decision has been made. I'm Joseph Scott
34:31
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Bags