Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep.259 'Three Ways Clinicians Can Avoid Physical & Mental Burnout' with special guest Jenny Burrell

Transcript

Ep.259 'Three Ways Clinicians Can Avoid Physical & Mental Burnout' with special guest Jenny Burrell · The STA Clinician Podcast

0:00
You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast putting evidence
0:05
back into soft tissue therapy.
0:22
Sports Therapy Association podcast. My name is Matt Phillips,
0:25
creator of runchatlive.com.
0:26
And as always, this episode is being recorded live on the Sports Therapy Association
0:31
YouTube channel and Facebook on a Tuesday night at eight o'clock.
0:36
So coming up very shortly, very excited. I mean, every time I meet this person,
0:40
I'm just thrilled because it's just a bundle of energy, as you will soon hear.
0:44
It's going to be in this episode, three ways for clinicians to avoid physical and mental burnout.
0:48
And my guest is the very special Jenny Burrell, who a lot of you will know through
0:53
doing courses with Bowel Education.
0:54
She's the founder, CEO and lead tutor and course curator of Bowel Education.
0:59
It's going to be a great conversation. A lot of you will have done courses.
1:02
I know in the STA, there's an awful lot of you talk very highly.
1:05
And in case you don't know, then the course is basically designed and have been
1:09
running for years now, about 17, 18 years, to help educate and support women's
1:13
health, movement, fitness, physiotherapy, soft tissue therapy,
1:15
and coaching professionals.
1:17
But in this episode in particular, Jenny is going to be talking to me about
1:21
the latest course Brief Coaching which is designed to provide all important
1:26
skills to help health professionals avoid physical and mental burnout skills
1:30
that as we should be discussing are too often missing from traditional industry qualifications.
1:36
So before I bring Jenny Bowell up I must thank my guests from last week in episode
1:41
258 New Perspectives on Fascia when I was joined by both from the University
1:47
of Kent Dr Claire Melanie Boucher,
1:49
Lecturer in Sport, Exercise and Rehabilitation Sciences, and Dr.
1:53
Kira DeConnick, Senior Lecturer, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences.
1:59
Every time I say, isn't it a great episode, they're all great episodes,
2:03
but in particular, I love looking at fascia as an example of how we do need
2:06
to evolve and how, yes, about,
2:10
10, 12 years ago, it was like a subject of a little bit of mockery when it came to evidence informed.
2:15
And don't you know, you can't change fascia with your elbows and stuff.
2:18
But the research on fascia, the modern research is getting very interesting indeed.
2:23
And these two wonderful doctors joined me to update me on the latest research,
2:28
both very heavily involved in research.
2:30
So they talk about in this episode about differences between
2:33
superficial and deep fascia and how that's very much changing the
2:36
face of research the limits of current imaging and
2:40
why effects of touch often involve fluid neural and
2:43
psychosocial factors as well as the traditional connective tissue
2:46
which is what we kind of all focus on also we point out if you are interested
2:50
in remaining up to date on the topic of fascia then do pay a visit to fasciaresearchsociety.org
2:57
where there's a wealth of information including a new webinar series so great
3:01
for the fascia i can't say that anymore.
3:04
It used to be called them fasciaists, but can't use that word anymore because
3:07
we've got too many of them trying to get to become prime ministers.
3:09
So that's just, we can't mention that word anymore. It's just, it's just...
3:12
Finally, before I do bring up my guest tonight, just another reminder that there
3:15
is a wonderful link, a QR code, if you want to get all modern,
3:19
on the homepage of thesta.co.uk and also on thestschool.co.uk.
3:24
And basically, it is a questionnaire which we've put out for all of you,
3:28
if possible. Please, please have a go at what you look for in a CBD conference.
3:32
We had a great conference in Exmouth in September. We really twisted them.
3:36
We changed it all around. We put the mirror on the audience. we were asking
3:39
you what do you want and we had an amazing speakers facilitating that and
3:42
we want more it went around really well because guess what we
3:46
kind of gave you what you needed as opposed to just preaching from some
3:49
kind of ivory tower about everything we know so we want to hear more what would
3:53
suit you okay so do please if you've got some time some really interesting questions
3:56
there just go along to the sda.co.uk or the sdschool.co.uk just click on the
4:01
link or the qr code and just take yourself through about seven little sections
4:04
of questions it'll be really cool because it will help us help you even more.
4:08
Right then, back to tonight's episode. Very excited to bring up,
4:13
as I said before, Jenny Burrell of Burrell Education.
4:16
As we start episode 259, three ways for clinicians to avoid physical and mental.
4:36
Thank you. That was a great intro. I didn't take that much interview, I think. Yeah, no.
4:44
I listen back to these and every time I hear myself going, oh, it was a great episode.
4:49
I always say it and it must be so boring people to hear, but I get so enthused.
4:53
As I know I'm going to get to tonight.
4:54
Am I okay calling you a bundle of joy? Is that okay? Can you live with that? Yeah, I am.
4:58
Well, I think I'm gas. Of energy, I think I said. I think that's the set point. Yeah, yeah.
5:05
It's so nice uh to have you with us again and to
5:07
help spread the message and the other episodes you've
5:10
done on the show have been so well received and i don't know you probably
5:13
do know how what a great name you've got in the industry because you've been hearing
5:16
it and you get people going to courses but it must be nice
5:19
does it is it still nice to hear that your name still carries so much
5:22
weight and and and pleasure and
5:25
in you know taking advantage of the information that you disseminate yeah
5:28
of course that never gets old I don't
5:31
take that for granted at all you know
5:34
2027 will be my 20th year
5:37
in business and that's a pre-digital business and
5:41
yeah it never gets old I don't take it for granted at all and I now I was on
5:47
holiday recently I went to Norfolk and a student saw me on holiday with my husband
5:55
and my son. And, you know, it was...
5:59
There was a palpable joy there, you know. Oh, my God, I saw Jenny Correa.
6:06
And I'm like, oh, hi. That's nice.
6:10
No, but I'm just saying, yeah, I'm weirded out and fairly amused that she thinks
6:16
it's so incredible to see me, like, out and about.
6:18
It's just like I was just on my holiday.
6:22
I think it's still nice. I mean, we do what we can to try and get rid of that.
6:25
We were talking a little bit off air about how that guru idea
6:28
of the person up there talking down at us maybe even
6:32
makes us do the same thing with patients we're trying to change that but
6:35
it's still nice i think when people do kind of
6:38
you know think of you as a little bit not a guru but
6:41
just a little bit of a goddess a little bit kind of you know
6:43
somewhere with all the work and the education to give out so i think that's
6:46
that's fair enough just saying hello to people who joined us live especially
6:49
here's office in the house saying evening my lovelies nikki mansfield
6:52
says evening all if you are listening live to us
6:55
and do feel free to ask questions and if you listen to
6:57
the podcast and you think i want it to be live i want to ask jenny bowell
7:00
questions directly then in future just come along to the
7:03
live recording on youtube or facebook at eight o'clock normally on
7:07
a tuesday right then so jenny bowell
7:10
nearly two decades how do you do it well
7:14
i thought rather than ask you so tell me about how you started which
7:16
could take another two decades why don't
7:19
we go why don't we jump into kind of the updates i
7:23
think you're on viral education 3.0 now
7:26
so i'm interested in in how you've evolved as an educator and what the latest
7:31
upstate kind of involved yeah well i think it's 3.0 because i realized that
7:40
there is a i think a missing part and this I mean,
7:43
this is no disrespect to any of my peers because I'm part of this as well.
7:49
There was a part that was very much missing in our education. And that was about...
7:55
During that client take-on process, doing it in such a way that we share this
8:03
health journey with the client.
8:05
Well, first of all, we elicit what, you know, what they want from their health,
8:10
you know, where do they want to be? Okay.
8:13
And then we work as a partnership, right? You say, I'm going to do this and
8:18
you need to be doing this.
8:20
And then not only that, but then we circle back, We circle back.
8:25
Okay, have you done this part?
8:28
And we kind of like gently, compassionately hold their feet to the fire.
8:32
But nevertheless, you get off the kind of I'm going to fix you kind of pedestal
8:40
and you empower the client actually to be part of their own health journey because it's their body.
8:50
But somehow we got into and our industry got into this thing of us being the fixers.
8:58
And that's how you get burnt out because you have got, you're carrying it all. And it's nuts.
9:05
It's absolutely nuts for us to be carrying the complete health journey of our clients.
9:14
It's not. It's so exciting to hear people like yourself talking about this because,
9:21
and I've said this a few times, but back in, I don't know, maybe 2000,
9:26
maybe 12 years ago, I was one of the people who was kind of standing up going,
9:30
don't you know, you don't fix people. Don't you know, you can't break down this.
9:33
Don't you know that that's wrong. Don't you know? And I didn't realize at the
9:36
time because I was, oh, I was probably about 20, but it was just,
9:39
it was all pretty negative. I'd read latest stuff.
9:42
I'd looked a bit more at the research, become more critical and realize that
9:45
a lot of the stuff which we were proposing just doesn't happen.
9:48
Massage doesn't do this, didn't you know?
9:49
But I really feel that now, especially in the last couple of years,
9:54
we've got something to replace that with. And it's what you're talking about.
9:58
It's not just a case of stop trying to fix people. It's like,
10:01
listen to the person and they'll kind of tell you how to fix them if you listen
10:04
hard enough, which I think is quite positive.
10:07
So I don't know, are you going to tell me that we're not quite there yet?
10:09
Or do you feel we're in a more positive place now thanks to things like that
10:12
and coaching principles and partnerships oh yeah we totally are there now that
10:17
you know we've got we've got.
10:19
We've got the mechanisms, we've got the education. It's really for the professionals
10:23
and actually maybe for us as the educators to have it in courses,
10:28
not as a would be nice to have,
10:31
but as a really principled part of what we do. We lead with that.
10:37
We lead with, okay, you know, what is your preferred future?
10:43
What does it look like? What do you want to do with your body again.
10:46
You know, you've had this hip replacement. What do you want to do?
10:50
What would success look like?
10:53
Oh, well, I want to be able to go back to my yoga class. Okay.
10:58
And like you contract with the client.
11:02
So there's a lack of formality as to actually what is going to go on,
11:08
who's doing what, what's this journey going to look like?
11:13
What will it look like when we're successful when
11:16
yeah we are successful and then
11:19
actually how do we nip and tuck this when we're
11:22
not quite successful so it is putting the client in the driving seat okay you
11:29
sit in oh do you know what i thought of one of those go-karts i had a vision
11:32
of one of those go-karts you sit in it you put your hands on the steering wheels
11:37
of your health journey i'll push from the back,
11:41
That's a nice analogy. I like that. Yes, they're steering.
11:45
It's so interesting hearing it, but I'm aware, and I'm sure you're aware as
11:48
you're teaching this, and we'll go into the course shortly,
11:51
it's often not that easy to change from somebody who gives advice and offloads
11:57
information to somebody who's just willing to ask a question and then keep quiet.
12:01
That's a challenge, isn't it? It is.
12:03
What are some tips? Bullseye. Bullseye, yeah.
12:06
Yeah, so that's it. So we are taught to do and be very, as we call it in the trade, active, okay?
12:14
And there is a point in this where, yes, we need to be less active and really elicit from the client.
12:21
And that involves saying less, yeah.
12:24
Yeah. And it's an art form.
12:28
It's an art form. I'm very chatty, but I have learned.
12:33
I was going to say, if you can do it, the whole world's got to adjust.
12:37
No, but I am very chatty. And yeah, it was a leap. It was a leap to say less.
12:45
But either way...
12:48
It is possible. Of course, it's possible. It's possible.
12:52
But I think it does, as you've kind of alluded to, it does take a bit of an identity change.
12:56
You've got to take off that metaphorical white coat sort of thing and just realize
13:00
that, yeah, you're a facilitator. I think it's other words.
13:05
People who come up with their own words is often more powerful,
13:07
but like facilitator. And I
13:09
think we mentioned off air, you said walking next to them, which is nice.
13:12
It's a lovely way of looking at it or pushing the new Jenny Boa one,
13:15
pushing the go-kart from behind.
13:16
I think that's got to go on the list now but whatever however people
13:19
see it there is a reframing isn't there of our role which is
13:22
quite tricky when you pay three grand for you
13:25
know a certification or even a degree which has basically brought you
13:28
up to be the perfect you know the the fixer the
13:31
operator the yes medical model you
13:35
know is is and and massage does subscribe
13:38
to that yeah so now you're going to administer something
13:41
to someone and it be fixed and that's why you're going
13:44
to get the burnout because you're going to be unduly
13:48
disappointed when people don't do their
13:51
homework you're going to be do you're going
13:53
to be disappointed when people miss appointments etc instead of okay you haven't
13:59
done your homework let's sit down let's work out why let's work out why you
14:04
haven't done it is that too hard for you do I need to make that two exercises
14:08
instead of four you know you then become a problem solver.
14:13
That's nice. Instead of, and I know, I remember I've commented on this being,
14:17
so it's me buzzing, not you. It's me, not you.
14:19
Instead of waiting for the client to go and then saying to your colleague,
14:22
oh, they never do their homework. They never do their exercises.
14:25
How are they supposed to get better? You know, which is, which is what I used to do.
14:28
And then till I suddenly realized, hold on, if they're not doing it,
14:31
maybe it's because I'm involved in that. And I go, you know,
14:34
I'm, I'm a little bit to blame.
14:35
They didn't hear me, understand me, or I gave them something that was impossible.
14:39
So I think that can be a nice little coin drop moment, isn't it?
14:41
When you start realizing.
14:43
That it's not you against them start competition and you
14:46
might just be part of the problem or your mindset around this might be part
14:51
of the issue yeah this is quite interesting right so yeah so this is basically
14:55
how why you suddenly decided to change the website to 3.0 let me just bring
14:59
up a image of the website and so people know what we're talking about so we're talking about.
15:06
Bowleducation.com isn't it yeah if you go along to that then you'll see it needs updating as we
15:11
about it's actually 3.0 now and i've
15:14
got a bit more gray hair i think but yeah
15:17
so i'm interested as well i think it's useful to know i mean you set this up
15:22
basically because of your passion for women's health didn't you yeah yeah so
15:28
well going back way longer than the birth of borough education I was a trainer.
15:35
I came up, you know, teaching aerobics and I worked in the gyms and I then became
15:44
a PT and then I took a massage cert.
15:49
And then I owned a gym.
15:52
And then I thought, oh, yeah, this feels hard.
16:00
And I was a bit older than my peers. And I was training an amazing guy,
16:07
George Dionysio, who was a self-made millionaire. and I trained him for many, many years.
16:15
And I said, would you mentor me?
16:19
And he was like, just hang out, Jenny, just observe.
16:27
And he had made his money from education.
16:31
He sold, he was a mechanic and his father owned a gym up a back alley in West London.
16:37
And he created a system
16:41
for analyzing what was wrong with cars anyway
16:45
and then sold that up for megabuts and
16:48
now lives in Antigua on an island somewhere
16:51
anyway so George said to me you are good at what you do you shouldn't be doing
16:57
this you know trading money for hours you should get into education and so my
17:04
passion well it's always been kind of women's health but then it was always peri perinatal,
17:11
you know, pregnancy and postnatal.
17:13
And I remember I worked then at the Harbour Club in London and I made one course to teach my peers.
17:23
So the Harbour Club brand, I then taught my peers and I got some reps points.
17:31
The fitness manager said, look,
17:34
you want to get some accreditation for this and that was it one course sold
17:39
at 97 pounds and delivered in the back room of a fitness first in tottenham court road i know well.
17:47
Yeah. And that was it, really. And then I started postnatal,
17:53
then I moved on to pregnancy, and then soft tissue therapy courses.
17:58
And I think, I don't know, I think in the back end of that website there,
18:05
I don't know, I think there's something like, you know.
18:09
20 odd thousand students and maybe about 40 editions of courses. I think so.
18:20
I think that's what, but, you know, it's a lot. And, you know,
18:24
right now there's hundreds of people in class.
18:29
But yeah, this is, I started with that and I really felt that,
18:36
just give me a second, I'm just going to pop my phone off.
18:39
I really felt that this is missing. Something's missing here.
18:44
And I was kind of like getting annoyed, getting annoyed.
18:47
It's probably not the right word, but it is true.
18:51
Getting annoyed with students who couldn't kind of do a course and then launch it.
18:57
And I was kind of weird. I didn't understand why people couldn't do the follow through.
19:03
And then I started to think about what they
19:06
were saying about clients clients couldn't do the follow-through
19:09
you know do what they said they were going to do and I I'm not kidding I was
19:15
like I don't really understand why and that was it that led me to take a four-year
19:23
diploma to become a psychodynamic psychotherapeutic counsellors.
19:29
I'm now officially a therapist and that work,
19:34
that four years of study, I just backchained it and started creating coaching
19:41
courses so that people could understand why people had problems with things
19:48
like following through and doing their homework. Literally.
19:58
Better. Ask better questions, better quality questions.
20:03
Ask questions that help their clients to think.
20:07
Ask questions that offload them as the professional and put things back to the client.
20:14
This is, and as you said, you're right, it is hard because we have been taught
20:19
to welcome the client in, do some degree of assessment, and we go to work to fix.
20:27
And that's why you get burnt out,
20:30
That's why you get burnt out because, hang on a second, this is the client's body.
20:35
Where is the conversation regarding their part in this? You'll see them for one hour.
20:41
Well, there's a newsflash, it's 23 hours in a day.
20:45
And maybe you see them once every six months or four months. It's nuts.
20:52
We're enabling the client to abdicate from their own role in their health span.
21:03
Yeah, we're like enabling.
21:06
We are enabling. Health is a lifetime concern.
21:10
Health is a lifetime concern. That's another thing as well.
21:13
So we're somehow we've
21:16
got it into our minds that you know health is
21:19
just about what we're doing to them yeah bullshit health is a is is the other
21:25
23 hours that's what health is so again it's it's such a strange it's such a
21:33
strange place that we got to that we've gotten to it's i find it quite bizarre.
21:38
I mean, now, and you're right, you know, when we talked earlier,
21:42
you know, I think about myself 20 odd years ago.
21:49
And yeah, yeah, there's a lot of nonsense going on there. But anyway,
21:54
at least I'm doing the course correction.
21:56
So, but absolutely, we have been taught,
22:03
something so profoundly contrary
22:05
to the truth, which is the client is responsible for their health.
22:10
Health is a lifetime concern.
22:12
And there must be a conversation with the client.
22:17
We must have a better conversation about what we're going to do,
22:22
what their role is, how long this journey is going to last, and nip and tuck
22:28
it as we go along the journey.
22:30
It's almost like we do the session i know it and there's no one that can tell
22:35
me anything different we do a session they get a great result and that's it
22:40
and we might not see them again for a year or something and that.
22:46
Yeah i that's that's worrisome to me that's
22:49
worrisome to me yeah yeah i
22:53
mean there's some great points there it is worrisome and i
22:56
think it's tricky as well it's tricky for the people who are going to kind of
22:59
have this flip in their mind of what
23:02
their identity is as a therapist to the client and working
23:05
with them but i think it's tricky for educators as well i'm sure
23:08
you feel this as well because we've had
23:11
the flip switch and to us it's like obviously we need
23:14
to ask the client how what is they want and that's
23:17
so obvious when you think of it like that but to actually do that in clinic
23:20
if you're listening to the podcast it's not as easy as it sounds it's
23:23
not that easy you can make a start by trying not to talk and
23:25
try not to give advice as soon as they walk through the and see how it goes but
23:29
it's it takes some technique but fortunately the techniques
23:32
are out there segue picture shirt
23:35
picture change there we go so this is this is essentially what the brief coaching
23:39
is about i guess this is where you've put your education and and all your experience
23:43
together and you're going to enable clients to to take on this new sorry clients
23:48
you're going to enable therapists and clinicians to take on this new identity
23:52
and kind of tweak it a little bit to save themselves and help the clients more i guess.
23:56
Absolutely. Okay. So the brief coaching is brief.
24:00
It's all in the name. One to three sessions. Okay. And then it's solution focused.
24:07
This is huge in the world of therapy. So there is, so I am trained in actually
24:12
as well, solution focused therapy and with the solution focused therapy.
24:17
So, okay, you've got the ones where you can sit and talk for three years,
24:23
and I'm trained in that, it's called psychodynamic.
24:25
And then you've got things like brief therapy, and it's solution-focused,
24:32
where we really, we get to the heart of it. There's a series of questions and
24:37
obviously you nip and tuck them for the client.
24:39
But ultimately, it's like, what is your preferred future?
24:43
If I gave you a magic wand right now, what would your life look like?
24:48
And in terms of health and well-being, what would your health and well-being
24:52
look like if I gave you a magic wand right now?
24:55
You elicit that from the client. All right, on a scale of 1 to 10,
25:01
where are you in realizing that magic wand scenario?
25:06
Oh, I think I'm about a 4. Why are you a 4? Because X, Y, and Z.
25:11
How could we move you to 5? Let's just think about moving one point.
25:16
One point. How can we move you to a 5?
25:20
Okay, you can do that to move to a 5? Great. Okay, what...
25:27
In the next 24 hours could you do to
25:30
nurture and nourish and support yourself to
25:34
now start to make these changes so you
25:38
know it's it's not kind of like the old kind of nasty smart model it's not that
25:43
it's not that but it is very much you know what's your preferred future if I
25:48
gave you a magic wand what would your health look like what do you want to do
25:52
with your body what do you want to do with your body that it's really hard to do now.
25:57
Where are we going with this? How will you know you've won?
26:02
All of those questions, I think, are very expansive, very expanding.
26:09
They have a lot of possibility. They help people enter their dream state, their dreamscape.
26:18
This is, again, where many people are just stuck in the grind or they've had
26:25
an injury for years and, oh, my God, they've got pain issues.
26:29
Oh, my God, they've forgotten to have a dream.
26:32
They've forgotten the dreamscape. And again, so we now turn into something way more valuable to them.
26:40
We are the purveyors of the dreamscape.
26:44
Do you know what? I would like to get back to playing balls.
26:48
Groups okay Marjorie that's the goal
26:51
this is how we're going to get there right we're
26:54
going to make a plan here's a plan I've used all my best
26:57
intel we're going to make a plan what does that look like for you do you think
27:03
this is doable oh it's a bit much all right let's we're going to halve it we're
27:08
going to halve it okay I will need you to win you want to win etc anyway this is again,
27:16
for sure Matt and I'm definitely into the truth I was not having those kind of conversations.
27:26
20 years ago I was not I was not and whatever you know as I said you know when
27:31
you know better you do better I definitely know better now and that's my message
27:36
that's my message if you know that this is this is a gap for you.
27:42
Then you have the opportunity to, you know, up level and start to have some
27:48
really potent conversations with people.
27:52
Can I just say, actually, one of the reasons that people
27:56
don't want to coach is because they
27:59
think that they have to be perfect
28:03
in order to speak like
28:06
this to somebody else and again
28:09
I'd really like to dispel that myth you know
28:12
if that was the case I wouldn't be therapizing
28:16
anybody because because guess
28:20
what I have a therapist as well you know what I
28:23
mean because because I'm a work in progress and
28:26
I think sometimes people are a little hard on themselves thinking
28:29
that they cannot coach because they're not
28:32
getting it right all the time and that's
28:35
a myth that's a myth because when you coach you step
28:38
into a you step into
28:42
a a professional role same with the therapy when I'm seeing clients for therapy
28:47
I step into a role and I'm doing it with all of my being but what I'm not doing
28:56
is saying oh I can't give you I can't support you because in this area,
29:01
because I'm not perfect. I'm not getting it right.
29:04
It's forget about that. Forget about the need for perfection in order to coach.
29:10
That's great. I mean, there's so much in there. Marjorie. I can tell the average
29:14
age of your clients with that name by itself.
29:17
Well, Marjorie. But I love the idea of asking Marjorie, maybe the first time
29:20
in her life after seeing all sorts of different professionals,
29:23
what is it you want to do, Marjorie?
29:25
And I think that can be quite dramatic for patients because even with friends
29:28
and family, I think at home, most people who want to help you will give you advice, won't they?
29:33
And to find a professional who actually, instead of just saying,
29:37
you could do this, you could do this why not do this you don't have to do that
29:39
they just go what do you think would help you and how would you be happy and
29:42
it's it's so powerful and it is it's not that easy to do i know,
29:48
through studying myself and trying to help other therapists improve
29:51
their communication skills it can be really tricky so there
29:54
are kind of a few they never like to call them techniques
29:57
do they because it's an approach really it's not like a solid follow these
30:00
steps one two three four because that would put us back to old school again but
30:03
no i think there are like little skills you've
30:06
got of how to keep your mouth closed even putting your finger over
30:08
your mouth when they're telling you you're going oh I can
30:11
fix that or you just need heavy loading for that Achilles tendon you've
30:14
got to kind of stop that all from coming out and listen to
30:17
what they're saying but I think it's a few little skills but
30:20
I think it was we had a long time ago on the show now we had Dr Gary Mendoza
30:25
who used to have the stages of change website which is all about motivational
30:29
interviewing and I think he was I think he admitted actually he was quoting
30:33
Rolnick or Miller but basically he came up with a lovely quote that some people
30:37
just need a good listening to,
30:38
which I've remembered ever since he said that. It's just a classic, isn't it?
30:42
Absolutely. And the power of that is phenomenal.
30:46
I'm so down with that. You know, I spent four years, you know,
30:53
subscribing wholeheartedly to that podcast.
30:57
A wise pair of ears is a very rare thing.
31:01
And the wisdom actually just comes from saying less.
31:07
And it's not wholeheartedly is about the client's experience.
31:11
But yeah, it's very underrated.
31:15
It's very cool. I saw a lovely comment here from Cecily Hisloper. That's okay.
31:19
I'm just going to read this out, Cecily, because I think it is a big wake-up
31:22
call for lots of clinicians. And Cecily says, loving this insight,
31:25
I'd never considered this to be part of feeling burnt out by over enabling them.
31:30
We're under supporting ourselves.
31:33
Yeah, exactly. Cecily, I might screen grab that.
31:39
Yeah. So this is it. What did I write here?
31:43
Yeah. So in terms of those three, yeah, the causes of burnout,
31:48
and I sort of said it before we started, you know, doing too much,
31:52
doing too much for the client as well,
31:55
carrying too much, and then also doing the wrong thing.
32:00
So I've been in this business for more than 20 years. And guess what?
32:07
My terrain has changed. I started out as a fitness instructor and now I'm a
32:15
counsellor and therapist. Yeah.
32:18
And obviously I still run borough education. But look at that journey.
32:23
Look at that journey over 20 odd years.
32:26
So I you could
32:30
be burnt out because the terrain
32:33
has changed but your map you've got an old map because you haven't thought about
32:39
oh what do I need now what do I need now I'm 55 and I said maybe I've been in
32:49
the business for more than 25 years.
32:53
Well, gosh, I am a completely different person from when I was,
32:59
you know, 25 years ago. It's not.
33:02
But for many people, you know, I could have stayed still massaging people,
33:08
still working in women's wellness, you know,
33:12
physically I could have I
33:15
could have but I think I'd be dead by now I don't think I'd be alive I don't
33:22
think so I think that I would be probably just physiologically hands wrists
33:30
shoulders I'd be smashed by now.
33:35
And so what I'm saying is, are people looking, you know, acknowledging a change
33:42
in the terrain and thinking, what do I need now?
33:48
What do I need now in this season of my profession, in this season of my life?
33:56
And the other thing as well that I thought about in terms of burnout,
34:01
and it's an old one it's an old one
34:04
but it's a goodie and i did get my little calculator out
34:07
for this right so the pricing
34:11
thing the pricing i don't know i mean
34:14
in massage i think it is under price
34:17
soft tissue therapies on the price i my therapist
34:21
charges me 70 pounds now
34:23
that's psychotherapy yeah and I charge
34:27
more for therapy than I ever did for a massage
34:30
okay so I wondered I
34:34
just let me just do tiny tiny bit of maths okay
34:37
and very digestible okay 20 sessions
34:41
at 50 quid and say you work 40
34:44
weeks 20 second sessions a
34:47
week about 50 quid 40 weeks work
34:50
it's 40k yeah 20 sessions
34:53
at 57 so you're giving yourself a
34:56
seven pound rise at and
35:00
worked 40 weeks is 45 600
35:04
so 45 600 all right 20 sessions at 57 and you only work 35 weeks of the year
35:17
comes to 39 900 So you're only a hundred short on that original 40 K.
35:23
And so, I mean, you know, I know it sounds as it might be annoying to people,
35:29
but you know, the power of a flipping seven pound price rise.
35:33
Most people have not given themselves a raise.
35:37
And everywhere we turn, the prices are going up.
35:45
And for many of the helping professionals, most people are loath to actually increase their prices.
35:54
And so look at that. You could just give yourself a price rise of seven quid
35:58
and drop down to 35 weeks of work. So have an extra five weeks holiday.
36:03
35 weeks out of your 52 and still well just under 40k yeah.
36:11
Just saying. Just saying. Don't shoot the messenger.
36:15
Yeah, no, it's a valid point. A lot of people don't do this maths,
36:17
you know, because they're too busy just working client after client after client
36:22
and thinking, I can't stop. It's a vicious circle, isn't it? Yeah.
36:26
But it's interesting. I think I found as well that for therapists who take on
36:31
this kind of more guiding role,
36:35
and shifting, it's not the word right, shifting, but just understanding that
36:39
you don't have to take on this responsibility by learning how to ask these questions,
36:42
then the client's giving you the answers of what they need.
36:46
And if you listen a bit more, then they'll tell you how to give it to them sort
36:49
of thing or how together you will achieve this.
36:51
It does save you a lot of energy, an awful lot of energy and stops the burnout.
36:57
But I think as well, another benefit, and I'd like to hear your experience on
37:01
this, it kind of just changes your life a bit.
37:05
I don't like getting too deep about this but on the communication course that
37:08
I've done and the one I do it's like I don't want to say this is going to change
37:13
your life guys but it probably is.
37:17
Sorry but it's going to change your relationships your view on life how you
37:21
look at yourself how other people are when you're talking in a room or not talking
37:25
it's a big thing isn't it when you play with communication.
37:32
Yes things well i have a biggest certificate and that's a whole year we're 11
37:37
months and that's called therapeutic coaching and yeah people come into that
37:41
course they do not leave the same person it's impossible it's virtually impossible
37:46
it's impossible because.
37:49
The world is fast. It's moving very fast. It's outrageously noisy and distracting.
37:56
And in these kinds of spaces where you start to listen more than you actually talk, guess what?
38:04
You start to do your own work. You start to percolate stuff and that's it.
38:12
That's it. The magic is found in the less, less noise, less talking,
38:17
but certainly they're not putting the load of the, not carrying the client.
38:24
There's no need for it, but we just weren't, we were not taught that.
38:28
We're not taught, it's quite bizarre.
38:30
Ah, okay, okay, so maybe it's this thing, I don't, no, I just think that we
38:38
are not taught, it's not part of our education.
38:41
Oh, it's put in there as a kind of, like, would be quite nice to have.
38:46
But if you want people to have longevity, and I say that as an educator,
38:50
if you want people to have a long career helping, there's got to be some firewaves in here.
38:57
And that's it. There is most certainly that hasn't been a consideration, I think.
39:03
Well, not for as long as I've been learning. I've not heard an educator put
39:08
that at the front when they're teaching.
39:11
So let's give us an idea then about how the brief coaching course works. What can people expect?
39:16
I mean, it's open to, I mean, on the website, it says it's pretty much anybody
39:20
who has to talk or listen in their career, isn't it? Health related wise.
39:25
So it's not just clinicians. It could be fitness professionals or.
39:28
Yeah, yeah. Fitness people, massage people.
39:31
Obviously, I'm always woman centric. So I say all professionals working with
39:35
women, but it does work on men.
39:38
Yeah, my husband can testify to that. So, yeah,
39:43
it's about anybody who knows that there's a little gap here in what they do
39:50
or feel so burnt out that they're listening to clients,
39:54
the offloading, you know, definitely with massage, oh my God.
39:59
You know, one drop of oxytocin transfer and that's it, they're away.
40:03
You know and we touch people
40:06
people trust people who where the touch is
40:09
safe and so for many massage therapists
40:12
the second someone lies down my good god you
40:15
know it's an off loading and do you
40:18
know what in counseling in therapy we
40:22
have supervision the client offloads to
40:25
us we then go and take
40:28
it somewhere else and for our own therapy but
40:32
for many people they do if they're doing 20 sessions a
40:35
week they're just literally absorbing sometimes
40:39
pretty as our it's not
40:42
a technical term but janky you know pretty janky
40:46
energy they are taking in over
40:49
and over and over yeah and this
40:53
is crazy so you you need to know how to use the energy that is coming from the
41:00
client and what to do with them what to do with that information and that's
41:04
what great coaching courses teach you they teach you how to manage the energy the.
41:12
The energy of the client over time, that's a lot.
41:17
If you do 20 sessions a week, that's a lot.
41:23
And where have you put it? What have you done with it? No one's taught you what to do with that.
41:28
So when you learn to coach, you know, I was in an appointment the other day,
41:33
phlebotomist, and I had just come from seeing a counselling client.
41:38
And she said, oh, my God, I don't know how you could do that.
41:41
I mean don't you then think about
41:44
them you think about them afterwards you think and I was like no
41:48
well I do think about them obviously but I
41:51
don't carry the load of what's going on for my counseling clients I do not I
41:57
we are in a partnership and we're going to work it out I have 100% faith we're
42:02
going to work it out and it's that that I've brought to the coaching world,
42:06
the coaching courses that I've created.
42:08
We are, as we said, walking alongside the client.
42:12
We're going to make a new map here. You've told me where you want to get to.
42:17
This is how we're going to do it.
42:20
All of that language for most people is quite foreign, you know,
42:24
in their work with clients.
42:26
That's all, you know, it's, and it's time for that to change because actually,
42:30
if you most I'm sure some of you are
42:33
not 55 but when you do get to my
42:36
age you you're you're
42:40
a bit knackered you're knackered and
42:44
I'm 55 with an 11 year old so we're still going to do school run it's nuts I
42:49
got messed up my timings but but when you start to get tired yeah you're very
42:57
glad that you have got something that doesn't require your physiological, you know,
43:04
physiological output, your damn brain.
43:08
Pleased that you've got something else to call on. And that's the other reason
43:11
for creating these courses.
43:13
A lot of people who have taken these courses have known me for years and they're
43:18
kind of like the same age, you know, perimenopausal menopausal women.
43:23
And they are like, oh my God, my wrists hurt, my fingers hurt.
43:29
And they too are feeling the pinch and they
43:31
want something else to do with people it's still health work but not physiologically
43:38
you know having that output and that's important that's a bit of an insurance
43:44
policy I still want to help but I do not want to do a whole body massage thanks.
43:51
I think it's really interesting, the link you make between massage therapists
43:55
who have built that alliance through touch, which is a really powerful thing.
44:00
If someone's willing to take their clothes off in front of you and feel that
44:03
safety, then they're more likely to answer questions with honesty and authenticity and stuff.
44:08
So this is a coaching I think I've always kind of said,
44:11
it's almost crying out for empathetic massage
44:15
therapists to get involved in because halfway there yes that
44:19
is so honestly matt that is so true
44:22
you've already done actually that's
44:25
it this is it right safety is one
44:28
of the biggest things in terms of
44:31
the work whether coaching whether therapy it is the same thing we've got to
44:36
make them safe in order for them to share truthfully for them to be feel that
44:43
it's safe to be vulnerable hang on you've seen someone that's prepared to get
44:46
standing in front of you in their knickers. You are already there.
44:50
You are already there. Somebody is allowing you to touch their body,
44:57
touch their naked skin in very intimate ways. You're already there.
45:05
It would take a counsellor months of sitting in front of somebody to achieve
45:14
that level of trust, I would say.
45:18
Yeah, I do. We've already got a head start.
45:21
And also, I'll tell you what, massage therapists, soft tissue therapists,
45:26
people who touch other people for a living are intuitive.
45:30
And I know that sometimes they go a bit kind of like masculine,
45:36
patriarchal, science, evidence-based.
45:39
But actually, there is a whole load of intuitive activity that is happening
45:46
there. And again, that's a head start when you come to coaching, for sure.
45:53
There's a lot of intuitive acting.
45:56
You know, I think, you know, I love what I do now, you know, the counseling.
46:01
And I think that the foundation of that has been my years of touching people.
46:10
I learned to tap into, to tune into, to attune to people very,
46:16
very quickly as a touch therapist.
46:20
And I think that that has been a big part of me loving this work and kind of getting it.
46:29
Yeah, so I think that's a huge point, actually. I think that's a huge point.
46:35
Yeah. So it should really, hopefully, listeners are feeling quite empowered
46:38
in the sense that I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying, Jenny,
46:42
is massage therapists have already got some of the amazing skills in communicating
46:48
in terms of communicating through touch, through just listening already.
46:52
I think intuition sometimes is just listening well, watching people well,
46:57
looking at body language, all those other forms of communication,
47:00
respecting people, showing kind of no judgment when they're taking their clothes off.
47:03
That's forms of communication so so you're suggesting
47:06
that these people the listener I'm referring
47:09
to you the listener not just these people that they
47:13
they could add to their business they could save
47:16
physically burnout and also mental and they
47:20
could add a little bow to their business by maybe if they
47:23
are listening to people and they can have these conversations whilst you're massaging
47:26
if the person likes to talk it doesn't have to be total silence if it's up to
47:28
them but they could offer then potentially more
47:32
help and even charge in different ways yeah by
47:35
doing this sort of thing yeah so it's a business I would pull
47:38
it away from the actual massage session and
47:42
you know formalize it let's have and you can do it on zoom and you can have
47:47
something where you can not have that load on your body and also offload offload
47:53
the expectation that some of the clients put onto us or flow that.
48:00
Absolutely. Absolutely. And is this therefore going to be on the course?
48:05
I imagine you do. I'm just guessing here. But I suppose what we're doing is
48:09
opening up another need for spotting red flags where you is going to be out
48:13
of your scope of practice and you need to refer on.
48:15
If you're going to have these conversations and allow them to talk,
48:17
how tricky is it to know when you do need to kind of go, OK,
48:21
I know somebody here, take their card or.
48:24
How tricky is it to refer on? Well, I mean, spotting when you need to stop what
48:29
you're doing, because it's moving out of your scope.
48:31
And really, this person now, based on their answers, they need to be seeing
48:35
somebody who's more experienced.
48:37
Yeah, well, it's that. That's what is taught. You know, trust what you feel.
48:43
Trust that you don't have an answer for this. Trust that this coaching model
48:46
is like, well, okay, so that's not going to cut it. yeah, just trust that and
48:51
never be afraid to do a referral.
48:54
You know, you could be saving someone's life, literally.
48:58
What sort of referrals would there be who would you move who would you potentially be
49:01
networking with because if you're doing these conversations you might
49:04
come across somebody who would actually need some proper deeper
49:07
professional counseling or cbt or something what sort
49:10
of people should you be surrounding yourself with if you're going to refer on
49:13
well definitely counselors and psychotherapists
49:17
and definitely ones with specialities like
49:20
for perinatal care and also
49:23
having on speed dial a good hormone doctor somebody
49:27
who works integratively as well
49:30
because sometimes that can be
49:33
part of people's issue that
49:36
they you know the peri to
49:40
post-menopause transition is impacting mental health
49:43
you know it impacts your brain and that
49:46
can be part of the issue as well in
49:50
fact all of those major transitions for
49:53
women you know puberty perinatal postmenopausal all
49:57
of those impact the brain impact the nervous system impact cognition so i guess
50:03
that's something that goes on in the course as well because it is i think on
50:07
the website you say through a female or for a woman's lens you're looking at
50:10
this particularly with when you're working with female clients or women clients
50:13
that's all learned on the course as well i guess.
50:17
Yes how's you run the course i mean people are interested thinking i'm interested
50:20
in this is it an ongoing how do people enroll and how long does
50:23
it last for and how's it delivered well you i
50:26
definitely think you can get through it in a week but it's
50:29
not just studying the content it's then doing the practice and every fortnight
50:34
then i do a live zoom and i do a goldfish bowl that's when i I coach someone
50:40
and then there's feedback around it and those are all recorded and dropped into the Facebook group.
50:47
So it's just this rolling enrollment, do the theory and learn,
50:52
you know, learn how to listen, etc.
50:54
But then you need to kind of do it, do it, you know, lasso some clients.
50:58
You're working with your clients already.
51:01
Say, hey, I'm doing a course and I need to practice. And then you practice.
51:05
But then also this kind of live demos, those happen every fortnight.
51:13
So it's it's it's a pretty alive course as
51:16
opposed to taking an online course without
51:19
my input so i am there every fortnight
51:22
that sounds like a good a good setup people
51:26
can study practice in their own clinic and stuff and with their own clients and
51:29
then come to you and report back and get some feedback and then go
51:32
do some more homework sounds good yeah and for
51:35
information on that they go along to borougheducation.com and
51:38
there's buttons and things there for people to read and
51:41
look at extra stuff fantastic sounds good
51:44
and if people want to follow you on social media instagram is that education
51:51
borrow underscore education yeah and then the facebook group is big isn't it
51:56
that's a private group but people can join as long as they're in health care
51:59
yes yes you need to be a professional no randos.
52:06
But uh yes yeah it's asked to join
52:09
and i let you in and just to reiterate as well
52:12
so people don't get the wrong idea i mean it's about working with
52:15
with female clients but guys are welcome as well
52:18
but most of the lens is going to be working with female clients absolutely
52:21
unashamedly and men are always welcome
52:25
we don't apologize for that matt thank you so that would be a education for
52:32
male therapist by itself just hanging out in a group yes that would be very
52:35
interesting there are some guys that do speak up and stuff like that and every
52:40
time like their name comes up or i'm like.
52:45
What? Where are you? How did you get in there? I don't use it at all. Show me your ticket.
52:52
But no, we know that obviously men are working with women. So they,
52:56
you know, all in all honesty, they are welcome. Wonderful.
53:00
Okay, well, look, it's 8.57. So people have joined us live. Thank you very much for joining us live.
53:06
And if you're listening to the podcast, then like I say, go along to boweleducation.com
53:10
and there's a load of information there.
53:12
If you listen to the podcast ever and you think, I wish I could see them on
53:14
the screen. Then obviously the recording stays on YouTube forever. It's why we use YouTube.
53:20
And it also goes on Facebook, but YouTube is probably the best place.
53:22
And as I always say, if you've got questions when you're listening to the podcast,
53:27
then go and pop them down in YouTube in the comments there.
53:29
And I do get messaged and very often I will approach the speaker and say,
53:34
I've got this comment on YouTube.
53:35
What would you like to reply to it? Or give me an answer to apply them to.
53:38
So let the conversation continue. I know we do this every weak
53:41
but the idea is that the conversation the information is still
53:44
there and if we need to update we'll do another episode but um yeah do use the
53:47
youtube channel to ask any further questions and you will be answered i promise
53:51
you right then it's that time once again thank you jenny so much for the hour
53:56
really appreciate it it's been a pleasure actually and you've actually given
54:01
me quite a few food for thoughts there.
54:05
There you go communication isn't it everyone wins in a good conversation don't
54:09
they yes it's true yeah i think that's also it's really nice as well for again
54:13
for therapists to remember is.
54:15
Another benefit of doing it like the way jenny said is
54:18
you do end up learning so much rather than just
54:21
pouring out the same stuff you've read and the same stuff you train with and
54:23
you don't really evolve that much but this way by listening to people
54:26
you will walk away with like wow i never
54:29
knew that was a thing well that's an interesting way of looking at life or and
54:32
that's how it changes you doesn't it you both gain from the relationship which
54:35
is which is quite beautiful as well it's quite
54:38
beautiful good stuff
54:41
right then so thanks everyone for joining us just a quick
54:44
shout out for what's happening next week so we're talking october the
54:47
24th oh god it's nearly christmas i don't want to say it out loud
54:49
but it's yeah already how that happened where
54:52
did summer go that lovely week anyway yeah october the
54:55
21st eight o'clock my guest is going to be emily gilbert of
54:58
framework sportsmassage.com who eight years
55:01
ago made a huge career change from biomedical biomedical science
55:05
to massage therapy and says she's never looked back she
55:08
advertises herself as an evidence-based mobile sports massage
55:11
therapist and she's recently been sharing some great information on
55:14
instagram and which i encourage you to go and have a look for and she'll
55:17
be joining us the podcast to talk about the challenges the rewards and
55:20
also how she found the recent sta and hands-on hub conference in exmouth in
55:24
association with st school so it's gonna be a really nice conversation with
55:28
somebody who's on the shop floor proclaiming evidence-based but not the scary
55:32
evidence-based which probably you hear people shouting on twitter it's going
55:35
to be a real nice look at how you can put that to practice like we've done tonight
55:38
the evidence does not mean.
55:40
Changing everything you do it's just tweaking it slightly um and
55:43
and hopefully looking after yourself in the process mentally and
55:46
physically so if you can join us for that live that'd be really nice opportunity
55:49
if you can't then the only payment you make for listening to the podcast it's
55:53
just leaving a review or a rating that's it's that's what really helps put the
55:57
great information given by guests out high up on google it's as simple as that
56:00
all we want to do here is is disseminate great information so if you're enjoying
56:04
the podcast you thought that's helped me.
56:07
Of others a little bit. I just want to throw that little altruism in there.
56:09
Just leave a rating and review and someone else will benefit as well.
56:12
That'd be really nice of you.
56:14
So just thanks once again to Jenny Bowell of Bowell Education.
56:16
Thank you, Jenny. Thank you. Thank you, Matt. It's been lovely to see you again.
56:20
Wonderful. And everybody else, until next time, take care of yourself.