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Your To-Die-For Life · The Uplifters

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1:20
SPEAKER_02: Hey, Uplifters.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm Aransas Savas,
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SPEAKER_02: and I've spent the last 20 years at the intersection of behavior change research
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SPEAKER_02: and coaching, helping midlife women do big, brave things.
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SPEAKER_02: Today, I am talking to Karen Salmonson.
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SPEAKER_02: She is a bestselling author, a behavioral change expert.
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SPEAKER_02: She's sold over 2 million books and courses worldwide.
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SPEAKER_02: She began her career at New York's top ad agencies before pivoting
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SPEAKER_02: to write what she calls self-help for people who wouldn't be caught dead reading self-help.
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SPEAKER_02: Books that merge psychology, philosophy, and most fabulously feisty humor.
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SPEAKER_02: Her breakthrough bestseller,
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SPEAKER_02: How to Be Happy, Dammit,
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SPEAKER_02: landed her columnist roles at Oprah.com and Psychology Today and was even featured
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SPEAKER_02: in a viral Eminem music video and a PBS documentary,
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SPEAKER_02: like two opposite ends of the spectrum.
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SPEAKER_02: Her latest book, You're to Die for Life, argues that mortality awareness is not morbid.
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SPEAKER_02: Agree, it is motivating, friends.
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SPEAKER_02: It creates an urgency which sparks action.
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SPEAKER_02: Karen's Substack newsletter is a top-ranked philosophy publication with
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SPEAKER_02: over 80,000 subscribers and you should join them.
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SPEAKER_02: She also coaches authors and entrepreneurs on branding, marketing, and platform growth.
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SPEAKER_02: I have been so excited to talk to Karen for lots and lots of reasons.
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SPEAKER_02: It's taken us a while to get to this conversation, but she doesn't know this.
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SPEAKER_02: I feel like she's sort of my personal good luck charm.
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SPEAKER_02: The day we met was at a writer's group.
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SPEAKER_02: I was so starstruck.
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SPEAKER_02: I've read her work and been gifted her work because I think
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SPEAKER_02: the reason probably it sold so many copies is because nobody bought one copy,
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SPEAKER_02: everybody bought 10 and sent it to everyone on their team and all of their friends
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SPEAKER_02: because it's the sort of thing that you read and you're like,
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SPEAKER_02: wait, how can I keep this to myself?
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SPEAKER_02: I must give it to everyone.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I've been gifted her work many times over the years.
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SPEAKER_02: She has this Bonkers gift for saying in five words and a graphic what it takes most
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SPEAKER_02: of us several hundred words to say.
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SPEAKER_02: Anyway, so I met her.
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SPEAKER_02: And at that event,
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SPEAKER_02: the woman who would be my publisher was there and had presented my book to her team.
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SPEAKER_02: So she's like my little book genie.
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SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's great.
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SPEAKER_01: Isn't that kind of fun?
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SPEAKER_02: I just love the timing of all of that, especially given what you do.
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SPEAKER_02: And I was with some friends last week in Minnesota and it was with two
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SPEAKER_02: of my girlfriends that are very dear to me.
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SPEAKER_02: And one of them is in the last stages of our cancer battle.
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SPEAKER_02: And I was staying with the other one and your book was right there, center stage.
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SPEAKER_02: And we had a nice long talk about how many people she had given it to over
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SPEAKER_02: the course of her career.
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SPEAKER_02: So you are just with me everywhere, whether you know it or not.
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SPEAKER_02: That's true.
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SPEAKER_02: Book titles, just so you can get a better sense of her.
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SPEAKER_02: Of course, there's How to Be Happy, Damn It.
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SPEAKER_02: There's also How to Make Your Man Behave in 21 Days or Less,
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SPEAKER_02: Using the Secrets of Professional Dog Trainers,
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SPEAKER_02: How to Succeed in Business Without a Penis, and As I Said, Here to Die for Life.
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SPEAKER_02: So today,
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SPEAKER_02: we're going to talk about what it looks like to keep giving yourself permission
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SPEAKER_02: to start over again and again and again,
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SPEAKER_02: because at 65,
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SPEAKER_02: Karen continues to challenge herself to learn new things and discover
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SPEAKER_02: and share new facets of herself.
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SPEAKER_02: How to find your newest, most authentic voice.
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SPEAKER_02: And how to, as I say about my grandma, she literally, she died last year at 95.
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SPEAKER_02: And we went for a run a month before.
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SPEAKER_02: We hula hooped the day of.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think based on her life, my goal now is to run all the way to the finish line.
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SPEAKER_02: And Karen's book has some really beautiful ideas on that.
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SPEAKER_02: So...
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SPEAKER_02: With that overlong intro,
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SPEAKER_02: because Karen would have said all that in five words in a graphic,
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SPEAKER_02: I welcome you, Karen Salmonson, to The Uplifters podcast.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you.
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SPEAKER_01: It's so nice to be here.
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SPEAKER_01: And I love that behind the scenes story of my good luck charm stuff.
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SPEAKER_01: And congratulations.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited for you.
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SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
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SPEAKER_02: It's all been such a long process that my manuscript is due in like a minute.
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SPEAKER_02: Somehow the last year has been mushy.
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SPEAKER_02: But here we are and really, really excited to publish a book and to share it with the world.
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SPEAKER_02: And one of the chapters that I'm working on right now is
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SPEAKER_02: about progress versus perfection and how we keep ourselves moving.
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SPEAKER_02: When I asked you what takes bravery for you,
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SPEAKER_02: you said learning that progress beats perfection every time.
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SPEAKER_02: So let's start there because selfishly,
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SPEAKER_02: I want to quote you in the book and make sure that everyone who reads it gets access
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SPEAKER_02: to your experience and wisdom on that.
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SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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SPEAKER_01: I have an overall philosophy,
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SPEAKER_01: which is inspired by Aristotle,
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SPEAKER_01: but don't let that,
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SPEAKER_01: like, don't let my geeky love for Aristotle, like, scare you away.
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SPEAKER_02: Girl, I am with you, Plato and Aristotle forever.
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SPEAKER_01: I love, I love, particularly, I'm particularly fond to have a crush on Aristotle.
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SPEAKER_01: I named my son Ari as a wink to him.
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SPEAKER_01: But I talk about him in a very like conversational way.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not here to like speak Latin and like, you know, be fancy.
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SPEAKER_01: But I just, everything he says, I'm like, yes, yes, yes.
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SPEAKER_01: And one of the things he said that the goal of life is to learn lessons
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SPEAKER_01: that help you to grow into your highest potential self.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, yes, you know.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I think that,
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SPEAKER_01: and then it gives you permission to make mistakes because that's part of the goal
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SPEAKER_01: of life, to learn lessons that help you to grow into your highest potential self.
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SPEAKER_01: So definitely progress beats perfectionism.
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SPEAKER_01: Like perfectionism should not even be a goal.
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SPEAKER_01: And in many ways, perfectionism is like self-abuse on some level.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a way to just beat yourself up.
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SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and mistakes are how you learn.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm a lifelong learner.
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SPEAKER_01: So, okay, bring on some of the education.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: School of Hard Knocks sometimes has some very hard knocks in the tush.
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SPEAKER_01: But, you know,
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SPEAKER_01: it teaches you things that make you,
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SPEAKER_01: if you're paying attention, that's the trick, paying attention.
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SPEAKER_01: Be self-aware and value growth.
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SPEAKER_01: And I write about this a lot in, well,
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SPEAKER_01: a lot of areas,
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SPEAKER_01: even on Substack,
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SPEAKER_01: but in Year to Die for Life,
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SPEAKER_01: That a lot of people think that they confuse pleasure with happiness.
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SPEAKER_01: And they think of the goal of life is to be happy all the time.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think that life is a combination of a den of pleasure.
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SPEAKER_01: Like I want people to be happy, but a laboratory for growth.
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SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people don't want to I went to the laboratory of growth.
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SPEAKER_01: They just want all of life to be a den of pleasure.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's just not the way it is.
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SPEAKER_01: It's both a den and a lab.
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SPEAKER_01: And you have to spend time in both.
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SPEAKER_02: I love that answer.
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SPEAKER_02: What has this looked like for you personally,
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SPEAKER_02: this experience of moving past your own really high standards and expectations
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SPEAKER_02: of yourself and reconciling the learning aspect of this?
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SPEAKER_01: You know, you really have to.
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SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because I'm a mom now.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm a late in life mom.
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SPEAKER_01: And because I'm 65 and I have a son who's almost 16,
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SPEAKER_01: And I watch him at times, sometimes like struggle.
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SPEAKER_01: And I find myself saying a lot lately, like the secret of life is to be adaptable.
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SPEAKER_01: Like when something doesn't go right, figure out how to adapt to it.
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SPEAKER_01: You're not always like, I watch him and I think about, yes, this is true.
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SPEAKER_01: I understand why he feels that way.
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SPEAKER_01: And so when something goes wrong,
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SPEAKER_01: to look for The gift,
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SPEAKER_01: the assignment,
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SPEAKER_01: the zigzag,
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SPEAKER_01: where it might take you someplace else,
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SPEAKER_01: or the gift, the assignment, or the bridge, which is sort of like a zigzag.
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SPEAKER_01: But zigzags are like surprises.
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SPEAKER_01: And bridges, well, maybe that will take you to the next thing, like a broken relationship.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a bridge to something better, you know, or it's an assignment.
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SPEAKER_01: And they kind of all come together now that I say it all out loud,
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SPEAKER_01: because you need to understand the assignment and the gift.
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SPEAKER_01: To get yourself to the zigzag and the bridge.
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SPEAKER_01: So they're all kind of bundled together.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's sort of a process almost.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Or you have to train yourself because it is hard,
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SPEAKER_01: you know, and you have to let yourself feel it first.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to let yourself feel the core pain of it.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't want people walking around like toxic positivity and all of that.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, feel it and then, you know, hunt around for it, you know.
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SPEAKER_01: And because we repeat what we don't repair,
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SPEAKER_01: And if you don't take time to figure out like, why did this happen?
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SPEAKER_01: How could I make sure it doesn't happen again?
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SPEAKER_01: Then it might keep happening.
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SPEAKER_02: What is your high standard expectation voice sound like inside your head?
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, like my inner critic?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: That bitch?
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SPEAKER_02: That bitch.
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SPEAKER_02: Damn her.
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SPEAKER_02: Does she have a name?
10:45
SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't name her.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: I didn't name her.
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SPEAKER_01: Maybe I did that bitch, you know?
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SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean, that makes her sound actually kind of attractive then because she's that bitch.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: But what does she sound like?
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SPEAKER_01: She's gotten quieter.
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SPEAKER_01: She's gotten quieter, much worse when I was younger.
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SPEAKER_01: And particularly about like body image and weight and work out calories
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SPEAKER_01: and all kinds of like,
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SPEAKER_01: you know, very eating disorder-y, body dysmorphia-y kind of things.
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SPEAKER_01: And now I'm just like, I'm more than my body.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: You know,
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SPEAKER_01: I want to eat well and I want to take care of my body because I want to live
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SPEAKER_01: a long time for longevity reasons and also even for writing reasons.
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SPEAKER_01: Like if I'm eating stupid or not working out, I'm not going to be thinking clearly.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to be creative.
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SPEAKER_01: So it is like self-love also.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't want to like punish myself,
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SPEAKER_01: but I'm not as like, you know, have to weigh X or fit into size X.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: You know,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm much more like,
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SPEAKER_01: I tell the bitch to go quiet and she, you know, take a walk somewhere.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm eating normal.
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SPEAKER_01: This is fine.
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SPEAKER_01: And so that part of me has changed a lot.
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SPEAKER_01: It's definitely matured.
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SPEAKER_01: And I have my self-acceptance that way.
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SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate my body for, first of all, being alive.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Your hair.
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SPEAKER_01: And also I can walk.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, like you have to, like,
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SPEAKER_01: we focus on all the things that are wrong and we have these invisible blessings.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, look at me.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm walking.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm talking.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm, you know, I'm thinking.
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SPEAKER_01: I have my memory, you know.
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SPEAKER_01: So I have to be grateful for that.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: A lot of these things are invisible blessings.
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SPEAKER_01: We need to be grateful for them.
12:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:37
SPEAKER_02: Like, why were we so focused on the appearance of the body?
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SPEAKER_02: Like, It is the least interesting thing and actually the least influential thing.
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SPEAKER_02: Because all those people I think that like look different and unique are actually stunning.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know, like such weird messages we've been given.
12:54
SPEAKER_02: I know, I agree.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: What about when it comes to your work?
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SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like you have such a strong, clear voice.
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SPEAKER_02: And when you look back at your work from decades ago now, Your voice is remarkably consistent.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it really is.
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SPEAKER_02: And I imagine you had people from the very beginning saying, Karen, be more like everybody else.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, God, I have many stories like that.
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SPEAKER_01: Like even my book, How to Be Happy, Damn It.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, I started off as a novelist and then I wrote like feisty humor and feisty business.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned my business books and everything.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I've always been feisty in it, in how I write.
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SPEAKER_01: And I also was like writing conversationally because that's how I kind of always wrote.
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SPEAKER_01: And for business book also, that was unusual.
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SPEAKER_01: Like when I wrote How to Succeed in Business Without Penis,
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SPEAKER_01: I said a woman doesn't need a penis to succeed, just falls.
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SPEAKER_01: And a lot of what I do is ballsy.
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SPEAKER_01: And that really does help you to stand out.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: But I wrote it more conversationally, which I also think was unusual for a business book.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: But it was just my voice.
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SPEAKER_01: And I just, it was how I wrote.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what helped it to stand out in the marketplace.
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SPEAKER_01: And when I wrote, I came up with the idea for how to be happy, damn it.
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SPEAKER_01: And I showed it to my agent at the time.
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SPEAKER_01: She thought I was nuts.
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SPEAKER_01: She's like, damn it, in a self-help book.
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SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, and it has like visuals and graphics.
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SPEAKER_01: This was back like in the 1990s.
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SPEAKER_01: And she could not see it because it didn't exist.
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SPEAKER_01: So try to sell something that doesn't yet even exist.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: No, because I had been in advertising and I'd been a writer and a creative director
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SPEAKER_01: in advertising.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: I let her go and I let her go.
14:39
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's a really good piece of advice right there.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I did.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: And I had some other wild book ideas too.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't even know there was a thing called book packaging.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: I had no idea, but I thought, I can see these.
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SPEAKER_01: I used to be a creative director.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to art direct these books from beginning to end.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: And if she's scared of it because she can't visualize it, the editors might be too.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: She might have a point.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: So I feel like if I show up on the editor's desk and I take out some of that fear
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SPEAKER_01: by showing them the finished book and saying, this is what it looks like.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: Because I think a lot of editors,
15:18
SPEAKER_01: and no offense to editors,
15:19
SPEAKER_01: they've been very nice to me,
15:21
SPEAKER_01: but a lot of people,
15:23
SPEAKER_01: maybe, I don't know, no offense to people, are lazy and fearful.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know what this is.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: You have to put in the effort to visualize.
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SPEAKER_01: So I just art-directed the book,
15:38
SPEAKER_01: How to Be Happy,
15:38
SPEAKER_01: Damn It, from beginning to end and then sent it out to the publishing houses.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: And then there was a bidding war even for How to Be Happy, Damn It.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: And then it came out and it was Urban Outfitters in particular,
15:50
SPEAKER_01: their best-selling book for like three years in a row.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: And that's because back then there weren't even these design-y books.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: That table was like, it was easier to be a best-selling.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: The number one was the number one best-selling one at Urban Outfitters.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: But that's because the table maybe had 10 books.
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SPEAKER_01: Now everybody's doing these design-y books and like naughty words and titles.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, damn it, it's like tamed.
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SPEAKER_01: People are passing up a storm in their book titles.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: But I like to think,
16:19
SPEAKER_01: and I think it might be factually accurate,
16:21
SPEAKER_01: that I was like the first to put a curse word in a book title back in the 1990s.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how things change, but it really did take convincing some people
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SPEAKER_02: that it was viable.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think like that right there is such a wonderful piece of advice
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SPEAKER_02: for any woman out here trying to do big,
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SPEAKER_02: brave things is to say like,
16:45
SPEAKER_02: when you have a vision,
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SPEAKER_02: Know when to hold it and stay true to it and know when to bring other people in and
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SPEAKER_02: to benefit from their expertise.
16:56
SPEAKER_02: So how do you think about that line as somebody who has been such a fierce
17:03
SPEAKER_02: and steady advocate for your visions and clearly has demonstrated through success
17:09
SPEAKER_02: that your visions are potent and viable,
17:11
SPEAKER_02: but at the same time,
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SPEAKER_02: I imagine you've probably gotten some really good advice from other people
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SPEAKER_02: that you've folded in along the way.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: And learned how to partner.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, I definitely am a lifelong learner,
17:22
SPEAKER_01: but I'll tell you a story where I don't look so good.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you a story of my book, You're to Die for Life, which is about mortality awareness.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: And that book was inspired by my dad's passing and,
17:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:36
SPEAKER_01: longer story there,
17:37
SPEAKER_01: but I stay on this path of entrepreneurship and authorship and everything.
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SPEAKER_01: I wanted to do a book about mortality awareness for years.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: And I would call up, I now have a different agent.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: And my How to Be Happy Damn It book had done so well that
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SPEAKER_01: the publishers were buying all these happiness books from me.
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SPEAKER_01: Like Think Happy, Instant Happy, Happy Habits.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: They kept throwing the word happy into book titles,
18:03
SPEAKER_01: even though I was saying like, enough with the happy and the book titles.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: But they were doing it and it was doing well.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: But I wanted to do something different.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: I was a little bit bored.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: It was like a conveyor belt thing that was doing great.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: So if it's not broken, why fix it kind of a thing?
18:19
SPEAKER_01: And I would call up my agent and say, I have this idea for a mortality awareness book.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's about death and this and that.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: And she's like, death?
18:27
SPEAKER_01: You're a happiness author.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: You can't write about death.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, actually, writing about death is about how to be happier.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: It's about how to have a more meaningful life.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: And this, Karen, no, no, no.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: So she talked me out of that book.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Embarrassingly enough, maybe, I would bet, about 10 years.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: I would say about 10 years.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: So one day I'm on the phone with her again and I'm like, really want to do that death book?
18:51
SPEAKER_01: I really want.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: And she said, no.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: So I got off the phone and I thought the following,
18:56
SPEAKER_01: and this will be a tip for everybody listening too.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: I thought, geez, I don't know.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: She keeps saying no,
19:03
SPEAKER_01: but I remember back In the 1990s,
19:07
SPEAKER_01: when I wanted to do how to be happy, damn it, that agent said no too.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: And I fired that agent and I'm bored with how to be happy, damn it anyway.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: And then I thought,
19:19
SPEAKER_01: I thought,
19:20
SPEAKER_01: oh, I guess when I was younger, I was braver and feistier and more innovative.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: And then I went, oh, I'm like, Wait a minute.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm still brave.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm still feisty.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm still innovative.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: And then I thought, I'm firing at that agent.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing it again.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: What happened to me?
19:41
SPEAKER_01: And the lesson here is a couple of things.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: I call it my Lion King moment.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, like there would be a Lion King.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: You must remember who you really are.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: Remember that scene?
19:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: Remember it?
19:53
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, I am those things, but it reminded me of my core values.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And I think, and I said, this is a lot of what wound up.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Ironically,
20:03
SPEAKER_01: it's like kind of meta or whatever,
20:04
SPEAKER_01: like because it wound up in my book,
20:06
SPEAKER_01: which I did sell and it didn't become a bestseller here to Die for Life,
20:09
SPEAKER_01: that when you're reminded of what your core values are,
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And you use them in a way,
20:17
SPEAKER_01: it creates cognitive dissonance if you're not living by your core values.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, I'm brave.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm not being brave.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: That's something I value.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm innovative.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm not being innovative.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: I value innovative.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm not being feisty.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: I definitely value being feisty.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, I have to move forward.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: And then you create identity-based statements.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: I am and so I do.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: It's one of the strategies I have inside Your To Die For Life.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: And there's studies behind it that if you link your identity to an action,
20:53
SPEAKER_01: you're more likely to do that action for the reasons of cognitive distance.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: So I write, I am and so I do statements all the time now.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: And it helps to motivate me to get things done, to remind me to be living by my core values.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: And at the end of your life, That's what you're going to be most proud of.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: All of those things where you followed your core values.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: And that's what eulogies are, quite frankly.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Like when you get to the end of your life and somebody gives your eulogy,
21:22
SPEAKER_01: they're not going to read your LinkedIn profile.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: They're not going to like print out your Google Calendar,
21:27
SPEAKER_01: pass it around, go, look how productive she is.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: Her inbox is never empty, you know, or whatever.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Or it was never full or whatever.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: And what they're going to do is they're going to tell stories about you.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: All the stories are going to be about core values that we follow.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: She was so kind.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: I remember that time.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: She was such a great listener.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: I remember.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: She was so supportive.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: She was such a loving friend.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: You know,
21:54
SPEAKER_01: all of these things are core values followed by something that you did,
21:58
SPEAKER_01: followed by your actions and habits.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: When you think about your funeral and...
22:05
SPEAKER_02: The people up there on the stage speaking of you, what do you hope they say?
22:11
SPEAKER_02: And how does that influence how you live now?
22:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, in my book, I have people write their eulogies.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: And I have,
22:18
SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of people might get creepy crawlies about the idea
22:20
SPEAKER_01: of writing their eulogy.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: So I have a like a Mad Libs template or Mad Libs or fill in the blank.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: And I include my own eulogy in it.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: So I share my eulogy with other people.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: And I have it in my iPhone.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: And I read it all the time and I'm always updating it because people change.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: Even I'm 65, I keep changing.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: I hope I'll always be changing.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Again, lifelong learner here.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: And I also sometimes,
22:48
SPEAKER_01: and I do exercises based on the eulogy because I'm very mortality awareness driven.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: And in particular,
22:56
SPEAKER_01: like what I want my son to say about me as a mom,
22:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:00
SPEAKER_01: So some of the exercises that I have in the book that are journaling exercises
23:05
SPEAKER_01: that I can recommend even here now that people can start using if they want,
23:10
SPEAKER_01: which is if I'm having a problem or something,
23:13
SPEAKER_01: like let's say with my son or with my partner or with work or whatever,
23:20
SPEAKER_01: I write,
23:21
SPEAKER_01: who do I need to become to And it would be to get closer with my son or
23:26
SPEAKER_01: to stop fighting with my partner or to finish my second novel.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: And then I write down the core values.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: So, and I realized where I might not, it might be core values that I'm not even aware of.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: Like I need to be more patient.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Or I need to be more flexible.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: Or I need to be more organized.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, it might be something that isn't on my, like, I'm those things list.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: It might be on the, I need to be those things list, you know.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: And then I write it down.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: And then I think about it for that, you know, for either that day to resolve that one thing.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Or I keep it up there for a while and make sure I start to,
24:07
SPEAKER_01: like, blend that in with who I am being.
24:10
SPEAKER_02: I love that specificity too and that constant reflection.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: Your life in so many ways is marked by change.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: You had a radical career change in your 20s and you have been on this path
24:25
SPEAKER_02: of creator for a very long time.
24:28
SPEAKER_02: And yet I hear in your answers that You have consistently challenged yourself to stay engaged.
24:35
SPEAKER_02: And that when writing happiness books started to feel like old hat,
24:40
SPEAKER_02: you looked for another path that allowed you to capitalize on your strengths,
24:45
SPEAKER_02: your gifts, your values, while maintaining your own interest and engagement.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: That's very important.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: Very.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, recently I wrote on some stack on my stand-up philosopher publication,
24:59
SPEAKER_01: My 90-year-old self comes to visit me for coffee and gives me life advice.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: So I did that as a writing exercise.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, okay,
25:11
SPEAKER_01: it has to be something that I don't quite know yet
25:14
SPEAKER_01: that my 90-year-old self would say to me, you know?
25:17
SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things that she wants to tell me that I don't even know
25:21
SPEAKER_01: where it came from because at first I just kept writing things.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, that's my 65-year-old self telling 65-year-old me.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: But then something came to me And she says to me, you have to not afraid to be a beginner.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: You have to be a beginner, always be a beginner.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: And that you feel most alive when you're a beginner, when you're scared and unsure.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: You're more like self-aware and you're growing.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to feel like I peaked at like 65.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's it, you know.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: So I want to keep being a beginner again and again and again and stretching myself.
26:00
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
26:00
SPEAKER_02: What's next for you?
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, I do have the half-finished second novel on my computer and I want
26:05
SPEAKER_01: to start doing keynotes more.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: So I have things,
26:09
SPEAKER_01: I've got things that I'm like,
26:11
SPEAKER_01: that I'm trying to stretch myself into doing and being.
26:16
SPEAKER_02: And when you think about stretching yourself into doing and being new things,
26:21
SPEAKER_02: what does that process look like for you?
26:23
SPEAKER_02: If you zoom out a little bit and you think about like the fears that come up
26:26
SPEAKER_02: for you, the
26:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, I get excited about change.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: You have to get yourself, you know, fear and excitement can sometimes feel the same, you know?
26:36
SPEAKER_01: So I try to get more like that nervousness.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: I like try to get, oh, this.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: And I remind myself of what I really want and why I want it.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: Having my eulogy definitely helps me because I even write things in that I haven't done.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: She's known as a top keynote speaker, you know?
26:53
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, it's in there.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: I got to live up to that, you know?
26:57
SPEAKER_01: But then what I do to make it real is I write my way into it being real.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I used to do keynote speaking before my son was born.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: And then I just kind of went into mommyhood and didn't really leave the house
27:09
SPEAKER_01: as much
27:10
SPEAKER_02: to go travel and do things like that.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: But now I'm ready to.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: And so I started...
27:16
SPEAKER_01: Slowly, step by step, getting excited.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, what are some things that I really want to speak about where I'm at right now?
27:23
SPEAKER_01: Instead of some of the things I was a keynote speaker on before I had my child.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: And I got myself excited about speaking about those topics, right?
27:32
SPEAKER_01: And then I made it real by,
27:35
SPEAKER_01: it's so funny,
27:37
SPEAKER_01: I convinced myself by writing a landing page on my website about it and putting
27:43
SPEAKER_01: a banner on Facebook.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn, my little shingle keynote speaker.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: It's real.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, I am.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: And then I also tell people to pour themselves a cocky tail where they remind themselves.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, remind yourself, like, I remember I was doing, I did pretty good.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: I was like, you know, I can do this.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: I loved it.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: I loved it.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: And I get myself into that state of excitement rather than fear where I get excited about it.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: I can really visualize it.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: So I guess that's my way of visualizing.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: I do landing pages for my manifestation because I can visualize it.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I think the more we can give ourselves that why.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: I did that with the Mortality Awareness book and even the Happy Dammit,
28:27
SPEAKER_01: like, No, I really need to get this information.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: People will like really benefit from this.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: Like being of service.
28:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:36
SPEAKER_02: And that comes back to your core values, right?
28:38
SPEAKER_02: Like if one of your core values is being helpful, then give yourself a goal that's helpful.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: And you know, believe it.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: And I have seven.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: I took in my book, I reverse engineered the top regrets of the dying.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: And I figured out how you can avoid the top regrets of the dying.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: I looked at each of them and I realized that there are seven core values
28:56
SPEAKER_01: in particular that That help you to avoid the top aggressive dying,
29:00
SPEAKER_01: which I could plow through them really quickly.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes, please.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll tell you the funny thing that I use to dangle myself towards becoming
29:12
SPEAKER_01: a keynote speaker.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: But first I'll tell you the seven core values.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: Oh, good.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll tell you the funny thing that I do.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: So I looked at the top regrets of the dying from a bunch of top death doulas,
29:25
SPEAKER_01: not just the famous regrets of the dying.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: So the core values that you need, they all go in alphabetical order.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: One of them didn't quite fit.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: So I had to, you know, tweak that by putting an adjective in front of it.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: But here we go.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: A is for authentic.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: You have to be you-ier.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: People regretted that they didn't look true to themselves,
29:45
SPEAKER_01: that they didn't express themselves honestly and openly.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: So that's authentic.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: B is brave.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: Get out of your comfort zone.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: People regret what they didn't do more than what they did do.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: C is curious because that's how you learn and grow.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: That's how you repeat.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: You don't repeat.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: You repair.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: D is discerning because so many people say, I didn't have time to do that.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't have time, which is like the adult equivalent of the dog ate my homework.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: You have fun if you're discerning and if you're aware of your core values
30:17
SPEAKER_01: of what matters most and stuff like kind of sprinkling your time onto
30:21
SPEAKER_01: the little distractions, save it up for the good stuff.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: And then E is empathic love.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: And that's where I added empathic in front of love,
30:30
SPEAKER_01: which I think in some ways is even better because if I just said love,
30:33
SPEAKER_01: You might think like romantic love and empathic love is in everything that you do
30:38
SPEAKER_01: with friends, co-workers, strangers, you know, to be an empathically loving person.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: F is fun.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: And because a lot of the regrets of the dying were, I wish I hadn't worked so hard.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: And I wish that I had let myself be happier.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of these things.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: They're all antidotes to the tough regrets of the dying.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: And then the last one, G, is for gratitude.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: So when you are going through those tough times,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: you kind of resuscitate yourself with gratitude.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: So the F for fun, for the keynotes, I think to myself, it's kind of superficial.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: So I like being philosophical and all of that.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: But I have my fun, kind of silly side.
31:21
SPEAKER_02: And that is, oh, if I'm a keynote speaker,
31:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to wear some really cool dresses or outfits or suits.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: I can't wait.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: And then now I look and I'm like always looking.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: I want to wear like a really cool suit.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: So I saw this purple velvet suit.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: Oh, maybe I'll get a purple velvet.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: And then that gets me excited.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: And it's so like silly, but fun.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: And it makes it feel fun that I'm like,
31:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to speak,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: but I'm going to,
31:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what it does,
31:49
SPEAKER_01: but it tricks me into moving forward more with the keynotes.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: I love it so much.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: And I think part of what it's doing is,
31:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you have done as much research as I into the science of visualization.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: That's true too, yes.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: And it helps us see and believe in the possibility when we can imagine it.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: And there's tons of research to show that it improves performance,
32:18
SPEAKER_02: it improves engagement and motivation.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: And so I think picturing that cool outfit and seeing yourself on that stage and
32:26
SPEAKER_02: that awesome purple velvet suit,
32:29
SPEAKER_02: like how inspiring to do all the hard stuff that it takes to get there
32:34
SPEAKER_02: and navigate all the unknowns of how you get there.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's that.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: And it also may be Maybe like it kind of pokes a hole in the stress of it.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, this can be fun too.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it's not, you know, I don't know.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: It changes it to speaking can be fun versus speaking can be scary or something.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Slightly tweaks it.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it brings in that authenticity piece of it too.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: I think if there was one where,
33:12
SPEAKER_02: or maybe I'd give it two, but they're so linked that we could call them one.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: I am debating between using integrity or authenticity as the core descriptor of you.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: Because as I said,
33:25
SPEAKER_02: you know,
33:25
SPEAKER_02: for decades,
33:26
SPEAKER_02: your voice has evolved,
33:27
SPEAKER_02: your work has evolved, and yet your voice and your you-iness have stayed so true.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: And so it was a poem...
33:35
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I want to speak about is how to be you.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I thought of the purple velvet suit because I thought,
33:41
SPEAKER_01: well, if I'm going to speak about being you, then I have to wear you, your clothes.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: And then I thought, oh, I'm going to go shopping.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: And that's where I came up with the purple velvet suit
33:50
SPEAKER_02: to be you.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: I call it the caftan with my clients a lot because it's like so many
33:54
SPEAKER_02: of us envision ourselves in our
33:57
SPEAKER_00: full Mrs. Roper.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: We're just like funkier and freer than we were in the first half of live.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: So now you're teaching people
34:09
SPEAKER_02: onSubstack specifically,
34:11
SPEAKER_02: I think, how to find that really true voice.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: And we talked a little about how you have sustained it despite external voices
34:22
SPEAKER_02: that say, Karen, could you be more like everybody else?
34:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: How do you help other folks achieve that level of truth in their voice?
34:34
SPEAKER_02: And what are some of the biggest challenges to it?
34:37
SPEAKER_01: First, you have to take time for contemplation and self-awareness
34:41
SPEAKER_01: to really understand what makes you you here and what voices you're listening to.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Not only the inner critic, the cheek gal that I have sometimes popping in in my head, but...
34:54
SPEAKER_01: Your mother, father,
34:57
SPEAKER_01: society,
34:58
SPEAKER_01: an ex-boyfriend, that mean girl from sixth grade or, you know, whatever it is.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: And she is.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: So you got to hush those and let your inner voice show up more.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: And so being you-er is both for enjoying.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: And I also feel like what love is,
35:17
SPEAKER_01: you know, where you say the divine in me sees the divine in you.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: I think it's when the you ear in me sees the you ear in me.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: Because it's about showing up just as your most authentic self and
35:32
SPEAKER_01: then making someone else feel safe to show up as their most authentic self.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: And that's when you feel like, oh, you're my people.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: And you can only get there if you show up as your you ear.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: It's like your Batman signal.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: You're your signal.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: And then it's like, received.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: This is my bad, you know.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: And then you find each other.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's how you can find your people.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: And so for that reason, psychologically, it's very important to live as you or yourself.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: And also the tough quest, the dying, blah, blah, blah.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: And lots of studies,
36:08
SPEAKER_01: which I'm a big studies geek about,
36:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
36:12
SPEAKER_01: what happens if you're not,
36:13
SPEAKER_01: if there's something called self-alienation,
36:17
SPEAKER_01: if you're not living as your truest self,
36:20
SPEAKER_01: And that's known to cause more depression, according to studies.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: So I feel bad if somebody,
36:26
SPEAKER_01: if I'm gonna say something that might offend,
36:28
SPEAKER_01: but it's based on a study,
36:29
SPEAKER_01: not my opinion,
36:30
SPEAKER_01: but it's more depression than trauma,
36:33
SPEAKER_01: not living as your truest self, which I thought was an interesting study.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: Although maybe the trauma is related,
36:41
SPEAKER_01: maybe the trauma created language, you know, but the study didn't say that.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: And then the other reason is because of, Grumble, grumble, AI.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: And I know it's there,
36:55
SPEAKER_01: it's not going anywhere and people are using it,
36:58
SPEAKER_01: but I want to help people not rely on it too much and to still be you-ier
37:04
SPEAKER_01: in how they write, how they show up.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: And so in September,
37:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm launching something new,
37:12
SPEAKER_01: but I'll tell you here, it's about zombie proof your business.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: And you don't write like an AI zombie and make sure that your writing is you
37:21
SPEAKER_01: or yourself, that that shows up.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: Even if you are,
37:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:25
SPEAKER_01: leaning on AI a little,
37:27
SPEAKER_01: that you're still awake at the wheel and,
37:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:30
SPEAKER_01: and you're being a critical thinker and that you're being yourself
37:33
SPEAKER_01: and not just You know, taking the first thing AI spits out at you.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: That kind of thing.
37:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: And I think right now more than ever, there's conversation about sounding authentic.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: And to your point about finding your people,
37:48
SPEAKER_02: that's honestly my favorite part about Substack is
37:52
SPEAKER_02: the entire platform seems designed to send beacons of authenticity out
37:59
SPEAKER_02: to find people who relate.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: And I think it does that better than any other social platform that exists
38:07
SPEAKER_02: because it creates this sort of web of authenticity through the referral and
38:14
SPEAKER_02: the recommendation process that it's based on.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: And it's really validating.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: I think even for people who are like, I just got on and I have five followers.
38:24
SPEAKER_02: It's like, wow, there are five people who are interested in the same things I am.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: And then of course,
38:30
SPEAKER_02: there's somebody like you who you're like,
38:31
SPEAKER_02: there's thousands and thousands of people out there in the world who are like,
38:35
SPEAKER_02: oh my gosh, thank you, Karen, for saying what I'm feeling and thinking.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: And then it finds you other people who want that,
38:44
SPEAKER_02: but who are also communicating the things you want to hear.
38:46
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
38:48
SPEAKER_02: And I kind of think,
38:49
SPEAKER_02: you know,
38:49
SPEAKER_02: going back to sort of our most basic foundational needs,
38:54
SPEAKER_02: it is fulfilling a certain need for community and belonging that we have lost
39:01
SPEAKER_02: in our digitally driven societies.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: I completely agree.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: And I've reached out a couple people on there and people have reached out to me on there both.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: And I've made friends in real life,
39:15
SPEAKER_01: some of them in real Zoom life,
39:17
SPEAKER_01: like we're in friends, but people that live in New York that I've met in person.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: And it's so cool.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: And you really feel like on Instagram, you can meet people, sure.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: But on Substack, people write much more intimately.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: It's longer.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: So you really feel like you know the person.
39:39
SPEAKER_01: And you're right.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: You can find your people much better there.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: I really am loving it on Substack.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: If you're brave enough to be you-y.
39:47
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: And not try to sound like the New York Times or try to sound,
39:52
SPEAKER_02: right, like some other publication's voice or your true voice.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: So what is the hardest thing for folks when you start coaching them other than AI?
40:02
SPEAKER_01: So one of my most recent clients came to me with a very powerful story.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: I won't say her name, but I'll tell you like a little bit of it.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: And maybe I won't even give you too many details.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: I'll just give enough because I,
40:15
SPEAKER_01: even though I'm not going to say her name,
40:17
SPEAKER_01: but she had a very powerful story that was with her now ex-husband.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: And it took a while to get to the powerful event in the story.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: And her opening paragraph was more You didn't know what was coming.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: And I think we live in a short attention span world.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: And you have to start your first paragraph.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: You got to get them at hello.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: And you have to let them know there's something unusual coming up here.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: And so she had something happen in her marriage that was very, very surprising.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: But it started off like, I met my husband, da, da, da, da, da.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, it takes too long.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: So you have to move a hint of that up top so people are like intrigued.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: So that was one thing.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing was you have to make sure,
41:14
SPEAKER_01: especially with the world of AI out there,
41:17
SPEAKER_01: that Think of those details that you notice in your life that only you know
41:23
SPEAKER_01: that really happened to you.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: And to do that, you have to start to train what I call a noticer.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: And keep even, I assigned her to keep like a little journal.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: That's like a noticing journal where you notice little things that happen during the day.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: And you don't have to write about that necessarily in this essay now.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: But what happens is when you start to notice like little details, it gets you thinking.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: And then when you go to write an essay,
41:52
SPEAKER_01: which might be about something else,
41:54
SPEAKER_01: you might pull up from your own brain's file,
41:57
SPEAKER_01: like little things that you have noticed because you wrote it down.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: And those are the details I think that have worked in some of my current essays.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: Where it's like noticing little details or remembering weird things that AI couldn't
42:13
SPEAKER_01: for the life of AI come up with.
42:17
SPEAKER_01: So to train yourself to be like a noticer of unusual things.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: And it's going to help your life in general, by the way.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: It's probably like a good practice even just for being present.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: And noticing things about other people and noticing things about yourself.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: Helps you be you here.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: But I think that I recommend people start like a little noticing journal
42:38
SPEAKER_01: where you notice little things that happen in your day.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: That's such a great idea.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: That's like a big event, like a little.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:46
SPEAKER_02: What the fuchsia plant is doing today specifically.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: I spent a lot of time this morning during my morning pages noticing how wild it is
42:55
SPEAKER_02: that it's like this little tiny blossom that Each day,
43:00
SPEAKER_02: these little,
43:01
SPEAKER_02: like this casing opens up to reveal a little bit more of what's inside
43:08
SPEAKER_02: and there are Hidden colors inside.
43:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm obsessed with this plant.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: It was the best thing I ever did putting it by a place where I sit
43:15
SPEAKER_02: for my morning pages because I give myself 30 minutes to just like reflect on
43:20
SPEAKER_02: the fuchsia.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: That is fantastic.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: So you're training yourself to be a noticer and that's great.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: That's what makes really great writing.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: It really does.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: I think your point about intrigue is really well taken too and shaping stories.
43:34
SPEAKER_02: I needed to hear that today and I'm going to play with it.
43:38
SPEAKER_02: It's a hard thing for me to do.
43:39
SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna go put on my growth mindset and think about how to get better at that.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: I have loved talking to you.
43:47
SPEAKER_02: You are that bitch in the best way.
43:50
SPEAKER_02: My hope is that everyone will go immediately if they aren't already among
43:54
SPEAKER_02: the millions and sign up for your Instagram,
43:58
SPEAKER_02: which honestly I think is my favorite Instagram.
44:01
SPEAKER_02: And your Substack, which is absolutely wonderful.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: And go buy your books and practice some of these lessons.
44:08
SPEAKER_02: As uplifters, we love nothing more than to uplift uplifters.
44:12
SPEAKER_02: Is there anything else we can do to support you and your next threshold of dreaming?
44:18
SPEAKER_01: No, just come hang out with me on Instagram and Substack.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: And I'd love it if you buy my book and you like it.
44:26
SPEAKER_01: Always authors love me.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: Amazon reviews.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: So if you feel yourself drawn to my book, little note on Amazon.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: That helps.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: On it.
44:35
SPEAKER_02: And it's free.
44:36
SPEAKER_02: What an easy way to be supportive and to champion the folks that inspire us.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: Each guest on the show nominates another guest.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: Who would you like to nominate, Karen?
44:47
SPEAKER_01: I'd like to nominate my friend, Melinda Blau.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: N-E-L-I-N-D-A-B-L-A-U.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: And she's wonderful.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: And we actually, we met many, many, many years ago.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: And then we bumped into each other on some stack.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: And she lived in Paris.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: And then we were just like talking by phone and Zoom.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: And then she moved back to New York.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: So she's now my New York friend.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: And she's not only a brilliant writer and funny and smart and also poignant and philosophical.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: She's a real...
45:22
SPEAKER_01: Loving people person,
45:24
SPEAKER_01: like that's kind of what she's like really strong at,
45:27
SPEAKER_01: like meeting people,
45:28
SPEAKER_01: maintaining relationships, like asking, being really an active listener.
45:33
SPEAKER_02: She's just like a good overall person.
45:36
SPEAKER_02: It's funny as you said that I realized that these nominations,
45:40
SPEAKER_02: like what I've always loved about them is it's a chance to give flowers to
45:44
SPEAKER_02: the women we admire while they are with us.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: And in a sense, that's a bit of a eulogy, isn't it?
45:52
SPEAKER_01: It is.
45:53
SPEAKER_01: You're right.
45:54
SPEAKER_01: It is a way to honor her.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
45:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if I mentioned when I described her right now that she's 82.
45:59
SPEAKER_02: Did I say that out loud?
46:00
SPEAKER_02: You didn't, but I'm obsessed.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: I think it's both a compliment to her and also interesting because she doesn't feel 82 either.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: She's such a very young vitality age, but she's still...
46:15
SPEAKER_01: Like amazing writer, active energy.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: And I'm interested, 82, who airs 82?
46:21
SPEAKER_01: But it's interesting that she's 82.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: But that's not even who she is.
46:26
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting because I don't think we hear the stories of 82-year-olds
46:31
SPEAKER_02: who are vital that often.
46:33
SPEAKER_02: There are plenty of them.
46:35
SPEAKER_02: We just don't hear about them.
46:37
SPEAKER_02: And so we don't believe that we can be them.
46:40
SPEAKER_02: So 100%, I want to talk to her.
46:44
SPEAKER_01: Karen, thank you so much for being here
46:46
SPEAKER_01: and thank you
46:46
SPEAKER_02: for continuing to surprise us
46:49
SPEAKER_02: and challenge us with your words and your wisdom.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: For those of you listening, we'll all see you over hanging out on Karen's substance.
46:59
SPEAKER_02: And on The Uplifters Podcast Substack as well.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: If you're a paid subscriber,
47:04
SPEAKER_02: join conversation with our guests, with our community over in our chat.
47:10
SPEAKER_02: Join us every Friday for our weekly co-working Zoom each month for our Lift
47:15
SPEAKER_02: and Be Lifted meetups and for all of the wonderful events we have in person as well.
47:21
SPEAKER_02: I will post links to all of Karen's work and of course The Uplifters stuff over in
47:26
SPEAKER_02: the show notes for easy access.
47:29
SPEAKER_02: See you next week.
47:31
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening to The Uplifters podcast.
47:35
SPEAKER_02: If you're getting a boost from these episodes,
47:38
SPEAKER_02: please share them with The Uplifters in your life and then join us in conversation
47:44
SPEAKER_02: over at theuplifterspodcast.com.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: Head over to Spotify,
47:49
SPEAKER_02: Apple Podcasts,
47:50
SPEAKER_02: or wherever you get your podcasts and like, follow, and rate our show.
47:55
SPEAKER_02: It'll really help us connect with more Uplifters and it'll ensure you never miss one
48:01
SPEAKER_02: of these beautiful stories.
48:05
SPEAKER_00: Big love.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: Painted water sunshine with rosemary and tonneau.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: Dwell and not perplexing, though you find it vexing.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: Toss a star and hover, be your own best lover.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: Relish in a new prime, land a tree in springtime.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: Dance with idle hindsight, bring the sun to twilight.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Lift you up, oh, lift you up, oh,
48:40
SPEAKER_00: Lift you up.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: Lift you up.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: Lift you up.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: Lift you up.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: Do do.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: Do do do do.
49:15
SPEAKER_02: It's that little thing you did with your voice.
49:18
SPEAKER_02: Right, in the pre-chorus.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: I was like... Mommy, stop crying.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: You're disturbing the peace.