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Is it impossible to arrive? /// FOLLOW with Doug Miller · FOLLOW

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the deal.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to get your stuff all cleaned up to be part of what God wants to do in your life.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to help people realize that it's not about cleaning it up.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's about being present.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's about one step of the journey that never finishes.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of having to reach some attainment of perfection, God keeps tapping us on the shoulder.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's never over.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not done, you're not done, we're not done, we'll never be done.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: We'll have profound moments where it seems like God's speaking to us, and that becomes part of the formation that we're experiencing in our life.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Follow Up Podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus was right about God and life, the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he said is true.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what we're exploring.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: All that Jesus said was true and how to rearrange our lives around it.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Doug Miller, uh lead pastor, Plum Creek Church.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: You've been doing this for 20 years.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: But put but Colorado's your adopted home.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you you grew up outside of Chicago, right?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Not only does it produce good food, that city just it produces good people.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, let's go.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Come on.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Of course it does.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, where'd you grow up?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to it's hard to admit.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Say it.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Aurora.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: See, I mean Aurora.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: We were in Rockford, so Aurora's like uh uh yeah, it's just all good.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: You grew up in Aurora, yeah.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, why'd you become a pastor out of Aurora, Illinois?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: How'd that happen?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was actually in uh college.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I wanted to be a doctor because I wanted to help people and make a lot of money.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then I took organic chemistry, and I decided the making a lot of money part came with the cost.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I uh I bailed and and uh in the process ended up in um a gentleman's class that ended up uh being a mentor of mine, still very much part of my life.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Rick Dunn is his name, and was just mesmerized by the thought of impacting students, and and I love to teach, and next thing you know, I'm headed that direction, and the rest is history.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and kind of cool history uh because this year represents a pretty big milestone uh for you here in Colorado.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: What is that milestone?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, uh, it'll be 20 years at Plum Creek.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you don't look a day over 37.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, buddy.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: How did you do it?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: Altitude here.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: Here's a weird question I want to ask you.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like as a pastor, I think it's kind of weird.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: When did Jesus stop being just a theological category for you?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's interesting for me.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was way before all this stuff started happening in terms of sensing a call to ministry, because it was not, I mean, that's not my bent isn't that way.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's more the practical side of like watching people's lives look different, seeing radical change in my dad's life from like he's always a religious guy, but from it started with him, I think, just looking wanting to see us all in the same pew as him, you know, like he'd look down with pride.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not even sure he's listening to the sermon, he was just glad that we were all there.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, but then to watch later in life, my dad's life be radically transformed by God, and just to watch him go from this kind of tough business guy to a super tender Jesus guy, and those are the kind of things that impact you more than deep theology, and I as important as all of that is, I mean, we want to see life change.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: We want to see that this is not just something we talk about, but something that we can see fleshed out in people's lives.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: You'll say I'm a Jesus guy.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like when you say that, what do you mean?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: What do you mean that by that?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that goes back to dad too.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there was a point where he quit even saying he was a Christian.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: He would just say, nah.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: I describe myself as a Christ follower, and that's what we're about.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think we can overcomplicate things a lot, and and in our culture, a Christian has become so watered down it can mean a million different things.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if you say you're a Christ follower and that's authentic, that means something very different.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I saw that happen in dad's life, and I was like, gosh, if I want that, I want that too.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And for I so I think that's the the biggest the biggest piece that really kind of began to form some of my ideas surrounding what it looked like to help others know this Jesus too.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Doug, I'm curious because you know, oftentimes we live in a culture where I want something from Amazon, I hit one click and it's at my house.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I can mobile order my coffee.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um I want to get to Castle Rock.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: I do.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: You do really.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've never done that.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I've never mobile ordered.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I have to because it's too it takes too long.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like because I I think I there's a place I'm trying to get to to arrive, yeah, is where I'm trying to get.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um listening to you teach, one of the things I respect the most is I don't ever sense like arrival language.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's yeah, I think so many people um are just like, I'm just trying to get there or I've got to that place.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like the knowing Christ has stopped.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: How have you kept that continuing desire to know Christ, to continually be whether big words sanctified, shaped, formed?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: How has that played out?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's that's something I feel from you from the pulpit when I listen to your talks and and sermons.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I feel like it's gotta be evident and true of how you live your life.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would guess part of it is just being acutely aware of how far you have to go, you know, when you like arrival doesn't seem possible sometimes.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's just this ongoing journey, and I know one day we'll be in his presence and it'll all look different.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for me it's just tenaciously aware of how much more I need to know of this Jesus guy and and how hard it is to actually really do what he said.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the conviction that hits there is like there's on this side of eternity, there's no arrival.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna keep working and chipping away and doing his thing and tenderly drawing us to the next place.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, I think it's just trying to be authentic in my own journey for sure.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I I and also an aversion, I think, uh to those that preach as though they have such authority, like speaking down to people because they've got it all figured out.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I've always just had an aversion to that.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: I always just want myself in the middle of this uh exploration of this Jesus and what does it look like for us to do this together and to truly be formed by what he said instead of speaking authoritatively.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I've just, I mean, I'm just I'm just a few days ahead on this one, guys.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, here's what he's doing in my life, and let's just do it together.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think this is uh kind of what has got that.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know, I haven't spent a ton of time thinking about it.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't it like Ruth Bell Graham like on her tombstone says her name, date she was born, date she passed, and then on the tombstone it literally says end of construction, thanks for your patience.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Which I think is just genius, you know.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because it's but I think I think that's that line that you just used is something I hear like regularly through your talk.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And just a few clicks ahead or a few steps ahead.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but I think part of you know, and and Dallas Willie would often talk about this, you know, grace is opposed to earning but never opposed to effort.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that effort required to keep yourself in that process of you know, not just knowing which you're you're I love the the phrase that you all say at Plum Creek often, you know, if everything Jesus said was right and true about life and the soul and faith, and the only next logical thing is to rearrange everything your life around it.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: That but that rearranging is ongoing, yeah, for sure.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is a process, but I feel like most people go, I rearranged my house, I'm good.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, like but it's it's can it's constant.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: How how do you contextualize this whole concept of rearrangement as it relates to relationship?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like because really um I was thinking uh we often fall into um what does what do I know about Jesus?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: We talked about this a little bit last episode, but when you really think about building a relationship, marriage there is no way to be married if you're not willing to rearrange your life around that person.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: So like I remember when I met Chrissy, uh, so I was 21, University of Kansas.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: My parents had moved uh to Rockford, Illinois, and so my sister invites me to this youth group, and it was, I mean, someday I'll tell the story, but it pretty much changed my life.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: And there was a girl that was a smoke show.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, my gosh, who is that?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: I asked my sister, I'm like, who's that girl?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: And she's like, uh, her name is Chrissy Hodges.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: I go, I gotta get to know her.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: My sister's like, you have zero perfect.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if you know Eric, that's all he needs.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: You have zero percent chance.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, What why would you even say that?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's so mean.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: She goes, Well, first off, look at her.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: Secondly, that's of course my sister.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, secondly, she so loves God.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: You so don't.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, it was interesting because man, I did, I I got it in my mind.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I need to have a relationship with that girl, and the requirement for relationship, as I look back, was total rearrangement.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like for real.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like she lived in Rockford, I'm in at KU, and so um I had to think about I started talking to her on the phone.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: This is back in the day we'd have cell phones, right?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I lived in a fraternity and we had hall phones, so I'd be in the hall.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: Started got her number, started calling her, talking to her, and then it became pretty clear like if if I want a relationship with this person, I will have to rearrange my life in order to get that, right?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: It it it won't be if I want a relationship, the rearrangement continues to this day.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's the key, Eric, that it continues to this day.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Anyone that stops rearranging in a marital relationship, you're pretty much gonna get smoked because life keeps bringing all kinds of different challenges, right?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if we don't keep rearranging, all of a sudden the relationship is so complex because we quit talking, we quit, you know, first when you have kids, all of a sudden everything changes, and we got to regroup on how we're doing this.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a perfect metaphor, and that's where you're going with this.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: We better keep rearranging around the next stage, around the next things that are happening.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's spiritually too.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: Personal.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: And you see all the sports stars say, Well, I think my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I have a personal relationship.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, okay, that's cool.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: If you want a personal relationship, that's a goal.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: It does not come through occasional phone calls for 15 minutes in the morning.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's not how it works.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: It isn't a rearrangement of my life in order to know that person.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's the same thing.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: Don't don't you guys as pastors think like that is the piece, this idea of like it's a relationship knowing more than just what Jesus taught.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: I know this person.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: If I if I were to say, hey, show me your Spotify rap from 2025, and and you as well, like the the top five musicians you listened to last year.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, wow.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Who would they be?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can remember a couple.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love Z Z Top.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So there's like I listen to Z Z Top a bunch.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Usually when I'm driving home, because it's like it just like it fires me up, you know, and I'm on the way to the gym or whatever, it gets me going, and Teddy swims.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Teddy swims.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it's good.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: So so I think this is this is where I'm getting at.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's most people, when they get to a certain age, they do not progress in their music.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: They stay connected to like I listened to the Clarity album from Jimmy World from Two, you know, it's an incredible album.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I listen to that nonstop, and my son's like, Dad, there's so much more new music out there.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: You seem to hang out with a girl.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: But but I think I think part of that rearranging though is often in marriage or in our faith, we almost get timestamped.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: 1997.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: 2004.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't progress, but you you both, I feel like, have shown that effort, that desire, that willingness, um, not to have that faith be time-stamped.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I'll go to a different church, sometimes I'll meet people in the lobby and I'll be like, hey, tell me when Christ was the most alive to you.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they'll tell me something three decades ago.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: When I first came to Christ.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or or yeah, or when I was in that that youth group as a certain like and we were volunteering, we were talking students coming to faith.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Missions trip.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Missions trip, you know, in our 20s, young families, when God was just in our small group, we were all like doing this life together.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And now they're like 55.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what changed?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Did did did God go?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're done.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I gonna I I'm retired from you.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm gonna go to somebody else.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: I got other people.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Or did we just like go, oh, that's as good as it's gonna get?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the rearranging stops.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we treat it like a really good vacation.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like I went to Italy once.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: That was amazing, you know, and now I'm you know, I'm back to my spot.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what do you but okay, you're a pastor?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: What do we do about that?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's a reality that so many people see Jesus as a really good vacation.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: It was a spot I went to once and had a really good time then, and now I'm back to my real life.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: What do you do about that?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: For me personally, like and I think I try to encourage our our our people is, and maybe it's just the way my mind works, um, is make it more bite-sized.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think about it in quarters.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you got four quarters in a year, um in this quarter, what am I focusing on?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: To and and I just and and it's a little of the vision attention means from Dallas.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, all right, here's this vision statement, a life anchored in crisis, one that, you know, for a season it was nothing to prove, nothing to lose, nothing to hide.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, then how do I live in tension with that?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then what are the practices that are connected to helping me embody that vision?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the next quarter, what's a new vision?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm just it's almost like when I got my first basketball evaluation, and my dad saw this from UCLA, so I can't stand the bruins.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: But like they just like ripped my whole game apart.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And my dad was like, if you take this five-page evaluation, you're right, you'll never play college basketball.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: But let's just take it bit by bit.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So for the next couple months, we're gonna work on your left hand.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Everywhere you go, I want you to have a racquetball or a basketball in your hand.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just slowly kind of taking it bit by bit, and I think for me that's been that intention or that effort to say, um, the question isn't more the question is yes, about the knowing, but also how is the knowing impacting the growing?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where are you growing in your faith right now?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and what's Jesus teaching you?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's when people ask me that what exactly what's Jesus teaching you right now, it shows the knowing to growing kind of.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: We can talk about what your dad said there, and I think this is a big part of the key.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like you could compartmentalize that evaluative challenge from the coach to just when you were on the court.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Your dad's like, carry the ball with you in your left hand wherever you go.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Always so it was like a decompartmentalization of this thing that you were so passionate about.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think I think this is part of the epidemic in the church today, and that's that following Jesus is what I do for that hour when I check in at church for a few minutes, maybe, if I check in with Jesus in the morning, yeah, instead of this decompartmentalization of all of it.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's one of the things we try and do is like when you go to work, Jesus is with you.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: When you go to lunch, Jesus is with you.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, that's not like something deep and spiritual to the point where it's unattainable, but if we believe that Jesus is who he said he is and he's right about what he said, then the implications of that are so far beyond just this these moments when we're really dialed in at church or you know, checking that box or whatever, it's really learning to decompartmentalize our faith so that it can be part of every aspect of our life.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's huge.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think too with that, you know, we were talking earlier about like the rehearsing.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's like when you receive communion, it it begins at a table, so that the rehearsal of that moment is every table that you sit at, Christ is present.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's like whether in the marketplace, whether in the in the in the in the home, whether at a coffee shop, it's like all of these moments is these almost a god of props to help you know how do I bring this into where my where I work, live, and play.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the challenges then is so many people will approach faith with this idea that I just was having a conversation yesterday with someone like he's like, ah, bro, I'm like a really bad Catholic.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, you're not.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, here's the deal like, you don't have to get your stuff all cleaned up to be part of what God wants to do in your life.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And none, like you were talking about this arrival kind of like when I get past the finish line of whatever it is that God wants to do in my life never happens until we're with him.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: So for folks that feel like, oh, I can man, I get struck by lightning if I entered into this whole, you know, way of experiencing and knowing God, like I think I think we need to help people realize that that it's not about cleaning it up, it's about being present, it's about one step of the journey that never finishes.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of having to reach some attainment of perfection in a way that my life emulates whatever, it's like God keeps tapping us on the shoulder, it's never over.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not done, you're not done, we're not done, we'll never be done.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And God's gonna just go for those little corners one little step at a time of our life, and we'll have profound moments where it seems like God's speaking to us, and that becomes part of the formation that we're experiencing in our life.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think there may be a tendency, in I'll just say in me, so someone else relates with this great, that when we say relationship with Jesus, we almost soften it to this sort of oh, you know, he's just gonna be around and we're gonna be around, you know.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: And what I really love about both of your stories and Steve, that idea of carrying that ball around is and I like the metaphor of marriage, is if your approach to relationship and marriage is similar, we're just gonna hang out and we'll just sort of you're not gonna be married long.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because what I've learned about marriage is it takes an intense amount of intention and an intense amount of work and um desire to want to be in this thing, and so I think about the beauty of Dallas' model, which you alluded to, Vim, vision, intention, and means, not as a tool, uh not as a burden, but as but as a reality to how we build relationships, right?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: That relationships are built in three very specific ways.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: Vision, right?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: Where you have like, I got struck by lightning, I saw Chrissy, and I'm like, bro, I can see a life with that girl.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it happens to all of us.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: You have those moments, right, where you're like, my life with God, like life in the kingdom, it could be like my life could be different.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: I could be changed.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: You have a vision for what it could be.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: The eye is the natural outflowing of that's what I want.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: I want, I want G I want to walk with Jesus more than anything else.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: I want to know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: What a transforming relationship with that rabbi will look like.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be the person he thought up when he thought me up.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I want more than anything else.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that sets to those to intention where you go, okay, so I'm gonna step into this thing.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna do this work.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I like the basketball analogy is because then it naturally leads to what Dallas calls means, the tools, the ball.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like you take that ball and you carry that thing around so that you learn how to dribble with your left hand.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Dallas said it this way without Jesus, you can do nothing.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: But if you do nothing, it will be without Jesus.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: This whole idea that, look, relationship actually ups, ups the effort, ups the commitment.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Relationship is not this soft, I don't know, we'll just sort of see when he shows up, he sort of missed in a room.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: This is this there is a vision of um something, a relationship with him, which is so sweet, but it will lead to intention and means, and that is like the journey.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: You want to build a relationship with Jesus, you want to build one with him, like a real relationship, it will take effort, it will take intention.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: You will have to find tools.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it I I like, I I I think we want to be careful not to uh, you know, you talked about arrived.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't linear, it's not like you walk through the end of it and you're like, here we are.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, now certainly there are moments, these milestones, but it is more like a virtuous circle where you know I learned something new, that new vision about life in the kingdom, and then I set I set my my mind to shape something new within this relationship, and then I bring new tools in.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I love that.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Dallas would also talk about within that intention that it's really a battle of the wills.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, because if you have this clear vision for what your life could be in the kingdom for Christ, well then you're going up against the the old way, which is the impulsive will, where I just do what I want to do.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: I say what I want to say, I buy what I want to buy, I drink what I want to drink, I look at what I want to look at.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I just let my impulse take over, or you have the reflective will.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the reflective will says every choice that comes at you, you run it through that filter.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Will this help me become my vision or not?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Will this help me know Christ more or not?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And what I think is fascinating is what he says is underneath the impulsive will and the reflective will is what he called the embodied will.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the embodied will is like the spiritual musculature that grows.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: So if you constantly in stress have an impulsive will that takes over, that's building musculature, that's building muscle memory to how you respond to stress or chaos or worry.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: But if you actually have this reflective and you start to, with the Holy Spirit, start to actually go, man, I don't actually need that.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Based on those means and those practices, all of a sudden that there's a spiritual muscle memory that starts to grow, and you actually become more patient or more kind or more gentle.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so I that battle of the wills for me is recognizing, because we often say, you know, we're rehearsing a story.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: That liturgy is is is God's story or it's some other story.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're all being shaped and formed.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's either through that impulsive will that's becoming an embodied will, or that reflective will that is becoming a more holistic version of who God thought us up to be from the jump.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was Lewis that said the more we let God take us over, the more we become the real person that He created us to be.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we just need to have a vision of that too.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what you're describing that process, it's like, you know, it starts with, hey, I feel something inside of me that I need to address something, you know, I need to do my work here.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then you just start becoming aware every time it pops back up again.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, see, there's that thing, and I need to, I need to stay focused here because that's my work now that I know God's calling me to.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then every once in a while, he's gonna bring that back.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you think you've done pretty well, and then a situation comes and maybe it's an intensity of a moment or whatever, and you see it raise back up again, and you're like, oh, there it is.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's the journey, right?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it it's yeah, it's a powerful thought that we have to have that vision of who it is that God would want us to be, and that could be part of the problem too.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: We need to know who that person is a little more.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the only way to know it is to get in and do it, you know.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, well, think think about it too, is like, you know, what's Orberg said, he said something like, you know, the people on Sunday pray that miracles happen in church, and if you actually want to see the miracles, go down to the basement and attend AA, you know.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um like part of part of the I think piece is how do you keep that desperation alive in normal or even good seasons?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's one thing when you're an addict and you're like, this is train wrecked my life.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm 30 days.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now you know, it it's another thing when it's like I'm just hustling because everybody else is hustling around me and I'm I'm overworked.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: I know that.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: But do I really want to do something?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Am I desperate enough to run that impulse of will under that vision of the kingdom?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or as that great Lewis quote says, like, do I really want that way of Christ to take over my life in this area, or this value of money, or this value of time, or this value of marriage, or this value of hooking up?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, whatever the topic is, it's one piece when I know, man, I there's a lot of collateral damage with my life if I don't get my drinking in in check.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: But this this just feels like how everybody less urgent.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Less urgent.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how do you stay with that dependency, with that urgency, with that longing in a world that is feels less urgent?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if part of that isn't kind of on us too to in when we're living in community to really call out what we're seeing in terms of progress in people.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's such a big part of the 12-step program.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we know where we were and we're talking who we are, and we continue to talk about the progress that we're making.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: We celebrate the wins, you get your coin, you do the things, and probably in community we need to do better, you know.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've had lots of conversations, Eric, you and I, about the things we're working on.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And to celebrate, see, hey, I saw you do that in this moment, and you told me that's one of the things that God was working on you about.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like in the same, I mean, that encouragement.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: When you encourage me that way, I'm like, I can do this, I gotta stay dialed in, I can get better at this.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we don't encourage each other enough as to the progress that we actually are making.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's like celebrating the milestones along the way of how that's impacting us is pretty important.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just what God made me to be, but where God has brought me from.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is powerful.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we are creatures that often forget, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: We forget these things we should remember.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: And truthfully, remember a bunch of stuff we probably should forget.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: But the power of many of the symbols that Jesus brings, this rehearsal.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: Some of the rehearsal to create urgency is remembrance.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like where we look back and I go, dude, I do remember.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: I do remember what I was rescued from.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: I do remember what that felt like.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: I remember.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: And um, for me, that is part of the relationship that I have is to remember what it felt like, to remember what that was, and to know that um that path, like, uh, but for God's grace, right?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: But for God's grace for me, that I find myself where I am.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: This was a few years ago.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Joined this men's group, uh, this small group, and they had been meeting for like 15 years.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're coming back from a football game, and my buddy was like, Hey, you want to come?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: I have not met these guys.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, sure, they're doing steaks, grilling out.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm grilling out, and these guys start asking me about um a former church I was at and some stuff that had happened there, um, not a part of me, but just like some stuff that went on, and they were kind of grilling me as the stakes were being grilled.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um I don't know those girls.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we sit down at the at the table and we're eating, and I said, Hey, you guys just grilled me.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Can I grill you?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, sure, what do you what do you want?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, most guys groups I know, they they hang out, they have fun, they chop about sports, they talk about how good their business is going.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: It never seems to like get to the point of you know, touching the bottom of the pool, like really getting honest.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so let me ask you, you guys are in mid to late 50s, um talk to me about like the difference in desire and with you and your spouse and um desire discrepancies when it comes to intimacy, um, and how you guys are making sense of that.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And they all looked at me like, uh cranking the grill.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: This is not grilling, this is steering.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, just I mean, like, I'd love to I'd love to know what does that look like?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it was quiet.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, who's exactly, and all of a sudden this one guy goes, it's actually been really, really hard.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like last five years.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um like we live in the same house, but um it's like we it's we're the the disconnect is so real.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um we like each other, I'm not sure we love each other.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Next guy just said, Hey, um, you know, the differences in uh work and health and body and all like and all of a sudden eight of the nine guys shared.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and I was like, Have you guys ever talked about this before?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, No.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, so what do you guys talk about?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they're like, Oh, we just we talk up here.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we don't talk.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that that's a piece of like, you know, I had a mentor who always used to say, You better talk honestly about uh money, power, and sex.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like you bet you like and your values of how all of that comes under the kingdom.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now, and then underneath that you should talk about your values of time, on forgiveness, uh, and your calling.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like there should be these conversations, but I don't feel like most of us know how or know where, or have the people that can actually be vulnerable to share and say, hey, this is how how my marriage really is, or this is how my heart really is, or this is I feel like I don't want to rearrange my life to Jesus.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make a bunch of money.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like how and and it's it feels like normalizing um those conversations just go right in the face of that decompartmentalization that our culture just pushes upon us.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: The beauty is after the congregate conversation gets started, they're all like, no, yeah, this is an issue.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: But we like to put ourselves together and walk in feeling like we got you know life by the tail and everything's great, and we just don't have those authentic conversations.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and the first person that has the courage to talk about it then opens the door.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it might take some folks a while to get there, but like if you can have that kind of depth of relationship where that's a safe conversation and you just being real and you're not gonna get judged for that because we're all on the journey.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're right, right, totally.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is beautiful, yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: How hard is it to find those spaces?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: How hard has that been for you guys to find those kinds of spaces to have those kinds of conversations?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's pretty hard.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think I mean that's the beauty of the three of us sitting at this table too, like because we kind of get life in terms of what we carry and what we do, and and that's a hard thing for sometimes for me to just think, man, I'm not sure they really get all the stuff that's going on in my life.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: So to find some people that you can trust to have those kinds of conversations with, I mean, it takes time, and you know, you kind of test the waters a little bit and see if it's really safe, you know, or you're gonna betray me, or are you gonna be there with me in the in the journey of life?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And once you find that though, poof, man, it's pretty precious.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: You you hold those things close.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think sometimes we separate it by gender role and say, oh, well, you know, men and versus women, and there may be some truth to that, but I think there is generally an epidemic that we just don't talk about the real stuff all that often, right?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: We just don't open up to what is really uh going on, and I mean again, I I keep coming back to um Dallas's quote about vision.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there is a choice that you have to make at the end of the day between the kind of life you want to live and the kind of life that you've been told you're supposed to live, right?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: You you have to choose it, and um there is a bit of like vulnerability in in in saying, I just want to live differently.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be known.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: Here's the reality of what's going on inside of me.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: So um, and we could talk about that for a long time, but I do think that's the nature of you know, we we hide a ton.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like that is we being vulnerable doesn't even sound good sometimes.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, yeah, I don't know.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I want you to know that stuff about me.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think I'd rather have a curated image that I can put out in front of you.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: That you're in control of.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: So although once you get there, you're like, I have to have this in my life.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, we live in a culture too, where because of that, and and I'm 100% fork therapy, by the way, done a lot of it myself, but like, how much more effective is that when you have relationships where you can talk about the stuff that's really going on and uh things you are learning when you're doing your work, and what is it that God's doing in me, and what is it that what are the stumbling blocks that can help me get there where I could use some encouragement, some support, some prayer, some like, hey, we're with you in this one, accountability too.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you Eric, you and I have talked about that stuff.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's kind of the phrase from you know, the days gone by, but there's a piece of that where it's good, it's good to let people in and say, hey, bro, I know you love me.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, keep your eye on this part.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if you see it, I give you permission.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead and and and poke that spot because I need to get better.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in college basketball, when you would watch the the the film and watch the tape, uh one of those the phrases, you know, the coach would often say at Kyle State was like, it's a privilege to give an account.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: You you you deed up the right way, and the tape doesn't lie.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so I've always thought about accountability, you know, uh as a privilege to be able to have someone that I can here's what I'm working on.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you get to see the tape of my life and you get to see the rehearsal, and how how do you sense that I'm doing and be able to, like you said, that permission to ask questions, and but I think so many of us just have to constantly work to make a decision against ourself, ourselves, um you know, like because myself doesn't want to be vulnerable, doesn't want to be in those moments, does like I want to self-preserve or I want to image manage or based on my own kind of like where I've come from.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like there are pieces that okay, no, no, no, that's not who I want to be.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: That person I want to be is someone who isn't hiding or isn't trying to prove or isn't afraid I'm gonna lose something.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I I want to be someone who's honestly and on the journey, you know, as you described, Doug.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, and I think trying to remember that, Eric, as you were talking about that.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because my I guess the way to say it is like nobody naturally drifts towards wholeness and whole intensity.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, you don't know.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're not you're you're not gonna wake up one day and be like, crazy.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Look at me, look at me guys great.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: It just it is it is the constant making decisions against what is easier um or what feels uh easier or what's gonna be self-preservation oriented.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um it does get a little tricky like when you are pastoring people in your congregation who are some of your closest people, it's hard.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you're like they s they know me and now I'm up teaching the Bible, like but again, you look at it and you go, nope, that's but we also know that's part of the beauty of it.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Part of the beauty.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: If if we can get outside of ourselves in the role and talk about the real life journey we're on too, you see everybody lean in, man.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not inauthentic, but when you do it from a deep place of like, hey, we're all in this thing together, man.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Don't you dare think I have this all figured out.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's why having a vision for something bigger is so important, right?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: A vision for what life in the kingdom could look like, a vision for what um I I want to be, and I I need to have something that I want more than anything else, a vision for something more than anything else.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, you know, I I I for me and my personality, I use remembrance as a tool for vision.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and I'm a future-oriented guy, right?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_03: Where I'm always looking forward.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I came back to that.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I'm I'm consistently going, I know where I came from and I know what that felt like, and I know that life is better than that.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: I know that everything I read in the Gospels uh points to um a future, points to, as John said, and we've hit multiple times, a version of me that is different than that version.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_03: I want that more than anything else.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so I set my direction toward that thing, and I put tools in my life, and it is an ongoing thing.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like I do it once.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: So that isn't how it works.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: You don't set your vision once, but it is a consistent, I want that.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: I've decided that's what I want.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I consistently try to reaffirm what I want based on what I see in scripture, believing that God in his kingdom is a better way to live, and remembering that I have had a taste of um Egypt.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: I know what that tastes like.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think I want to go back to Egypt.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's important too for people that are trying to evaluate from a distance this Jesus guy.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Just like drop it for a second and give it a shot.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like do what he said, just try a couple of things and keep close watch of your life and watch what happens when you actually try his way and you practice what he taught and you lean into a few of these things and just pay attention to what happens in our souls when we do.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's some beauty there.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we don't have to have it all buttoned up, but if Jesus really is who he says he was, give him a shot.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like just take a couple of steps into this practice of paying attention to the red letters, do what he said, and watch what happens in your soul.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: Watch what happens as we've been talking about your relationships, and if it like give him a chance, because I promise you're gonna walk away as we all have from those moments, like something's happening in me, and it's starting to reorient my life.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's some beautiful things that are on the cusp of happening when we give them a shot.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of the pieces that for us at Christ Church, based on those that follow series that you all did in the follow guide, yeah, um we'd often just say kind of you know, before every message, you know, the call of the disciple is to learn to be with Christ, to live like Christ, to become Christ-like, and to go make disciples who make disciples.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think just that that the simplicity of that, just try it on.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Find specific moments where you work, live, and play to be with him, to live like him, and and watch how the spirit will help you become Christ like and you'll go do what he did.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: Love that.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: Doug, thanks, dude.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for sitting with us and Shopping for a bit and uh just talking about Jesus and um what it looks like to follow him a little bit more.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: So appreciate you for real.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: Appreciate you all that you're doing for Castle Rock and the Kingdom and such a good friend.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: So that's gonna do it for today.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: Take it with you, carry it into your week.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: Talk about it with somebody, let it do something in you.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: We'll be back soon with more.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: So until then, keep following up.