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Outcome vs. Process: Are Your Goals Controlling Your Happiness? · Imagine The Good

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're tasting your next goal, but you can't remember the last time you felt truly present or fulfilled.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're surrounded by people yet somehow still feel alone.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: You've built the success you were told to go after, but you quietly wonder, is this all there really is?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then this podcast is for you.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine the good.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: So here are your hosts, Jason and Robin.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Imagine the Good Podcast.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Robin Barr, and this is episode four.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Jason Dorland.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're excited to talk with you and together about the impact of process-oriented focus versus outcome focus.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: You ready to dive in?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot to dive into.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Very much so.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, as athletes, naturally, it's been a huge part of our lives, right?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: You can't be engaged in sport and not have process be part of that.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: But for the listeners, it is not just sport, it is life.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Life is process.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, anyhow, I became way too focused on outcome.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it interfered, interrupted, inhibited my ability to engage in a very thorough process.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was good enough, I suppose, but it could have been better.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the part that we want to dive into is how can our mindset, how can the way we hold process and outcome determine the way we not only engage, but the success or the outcome that we get.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the interesting piece for us in our work, especially, is that we often hear from coaches, from business owners, from leaders who say, look, we need to make revenue, right?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: We need to earn money, we need to be successful.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm a coach, I need to win.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: We're not saying you can't be thinking about outcome.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's not an either-or.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think the important thing is it's not process versus outcome, it's process and outcome.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: They hold hands, absolutely.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Often it's the outcome that we want that begins the process.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: And what I've learned throughout my journey as an athlete, a coach, now a business owner, and even in education, is that the paradox being the more you obsess over that outcome, the less likely it is to show up.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: And invariably, because it interferes or is detrimental in your ability to really optimize your process.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Fair?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, uh, definitely fair.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And for myself, I feel like it's one of the deepest threads of learning in beginning in my athletic journey.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And when I reflect back to my first Olympic trials at 21 years old in 88, finished fourth of the top three go didn't meet the results I wanted.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I had blinders on leading up to that event, very focused on outcome to the detriment of myself.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so that disappointment invited reflection within the perspective of if I want to explore my potential going forward, I can't just be hanging my life on waiting for some event to happen and check a box.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: It invited how do I want to take the ride, how do I want to live?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that put the focus on the process.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Who do I want to be?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: How do I want to show up?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And do I feel like I'm living?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we care deeply about, you know, whether it's healing, helping someone, healing in counseling or coaching, helping them reach their goals with social change, caring deeply about the environment and things that matter in big ways.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And yet the paradox that when we focus on the outcome, we can deplete ourselves.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And especially if it's a long game.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's just a lot of wisdom in being skillful at focusing on the process as we engage what we care about.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think it's strictly North America or Western culture, but I'd say we do a really good job of putting that thought or that belief into our children at a very young age, that outcome is everything, that we are an outcome-focused culture, society.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I would even go a step further that our worth is often determined by the outcomes we achieve.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I certainly bought into that as a young athlete, that when I achieved extraordinary things, adults treated me differently.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: So the messaging that I heard or made was that I am more worthy when I do exceptional things.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it, you know, in our coaching, the athletes that we work with, even corporate, they have a belief very similar to that, athletes especially.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: And they've gone through that same process.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: They have built an identity around being performers, being exceptional performers.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that identity is validated every time they achieve something that the people in their world consider good enough, right?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so part of the challenge I had was that I needed the opinions of those around me in order to determine when I was good enough.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't grant that power to myself as a young person.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: I needed parents, coaches, aunts and uncles, neighbors, teachers, what have you, to be able to say something affirming for me to go, okay, well, I guess I'm getting there, right?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: I guess that was good enough.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't do that on my own.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: And we see that so often in the athletes that we work with, that they learn at a young age that their worth is built on the things they achieve.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: And goodness, it's just not sport.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we are such a culture obsessed with attainment.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: You put that onto social media.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we've worked with people where they put a post up in the morning, and if it doesn't have enough likes by noon, they're taking that post down because they aren't being validated by those around them.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, goodness, we could talk about social media and it's to its detriment for a week, but it's just a small example of where our society puts its focus and what we quote-unquote value to our detriment for sure.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's not always intentional that the culture and circumstances marry self-worth with what we do.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it just happens unintentionally at times.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I know for myself, as a very young athlete, as a teenager, I became just that moment of having a friend's mom not be particularly welcoming or friendly to me, and then having media attention in the paper, and then going over to her house, and all of a sudden she was welcoming and saw me and kind.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I still remember that moment and feeling like, what was wrong with me before?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, wasn't I worth being welcomed and treated well?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And in that moment, I decided one, I don't want my highs and lows as a human being swinging on my athletic performance.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And two, I want to know if you're the kind of person that treats someone well just because you treat people well.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I felt like for me early on, that part was an important lesson that registered in my belly.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: How old were you?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I was a young teenager because impressive evolution because I didn't get there till well into my twenties.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're relational beings and just felt that so significantly, like just feeling that my value all of a sudden changed and I didn't like that.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: It left me feeling very vulnerable.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Not that I didn't focus on results and as an athlete in my early career, I still had my eye on the prize and the process of learning that lesson again and again.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yet at another point, when I had compromised immune system and health issues that left a big question mark around outcome of performance, it forced me to say, well, I don't know what the results are going to be.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: So how do I want to show up?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And who do I want to be in this process?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I find it fulfilling and exciting to explore this area because of the richness that it offers and who we can be for ourselves and to one another, because it has also such a significant impact on the relational space.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And just even bringing it back to the neuroscience of understanding the different states that are invited through that orientation of focus on outcome versus focus on process.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: When we're focused on outcome to the detriment of process, it can create an internal threat response around the uncertainty of what's going to happen if we're holding tight to that outcome.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: That in itself can become a threat, which can tighten us up, can narrow our focus, it can move us out of a space of awareness relationally.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of cost when we get too caught up in results in ways that take us away from the immediacy and the present moment.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's, I think there's research.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't think there is research, uh, learning goals versus outcome.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: So when we create learning goals for ourselves, when we engage in this idea of getting better, of mastery, we like what we like to call it evokes a higher engagement, safer engagement, because we're not waiting to be told whether or not this is working.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: We are in a process of daily having a growth experience of getting better.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, no surprise, the learning goals beget higher performance.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, it's I find it interesting that it takes some doing to get there, right?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: That coaches or teachers, like our education system, that that isn't sort of ingrained within the process of school.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: I remember when I was teaching, I remember when we'd have to read over the reports after each term and sort of check over reports that other teachers had read, written just to proofread and whatever.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the number of times that I would see, you know, if so-and-so can just get to an 80, or if so-and-so works a little harder, then maybe there'll be an 80.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I used to think, why, like, how about if so-and-so engages in class more, does the work, or find, you know, as opposed to laying out some steps and some strategies, it was always about the mark.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I realized that I was a bit, you know, that light had been turned on for me in a hyper way post-Olympics.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so maybe others just didn't see it the way I saw it.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it was just everywhere.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: It was every subject, it was every teacher.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: It was so much about the education process, it was just about hitting benchmarks, about hitting marks.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, life's going to be grand and awesome when you have an 80 or a 90, or goodness, today it'd be a freaking 95, you know, based on grades.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think that things have shifted a bit if you look at our daughter's experience through school and also even the way that schools embrace our work?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that if there hadn't been a shift, we wouldn't have been able to do the work that we've done without some alignment.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say there to that that it's the rare head of school or leader who understands our work and brings us in.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of the schools still are, you know, they want the achievement.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: They want the students in getting into certain schools and getting these marks because of the results and the attention that that garners.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: As do the schools that we work with.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, for sure.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that they also appreciate the importance of the carrot and or the horse and the cart kind of concept, right?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I totally get that.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: For me, one of us, or for me, where this landed for me was this idea, this Ted Turner story that I heard, and you're familiar with it.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, where Ted Turner, for those of you that don't know, was the guy who started CNN back when it was a news station or a network.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: And he used to tell this story about the mountain of achievement and the bag of gold that was at the top of the mountain.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: When he was mentoring or working with other young entrepreneurs, he would say, You know, you believe, because I used to believe that if I work my butt off and I grind and I sacrifice and I push and what have you, and I get to that mountaintop at some point in my journey, I'm gonna see the bag of gold.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go over, I'm gonna grab the bag, pick it up, I'm gonna open up that bag, and I'm gonna see that it's empty.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that is the lie that society has sold to us.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And the other part of the story is that I can tell you this, but you're gonna think that you're different, and that if I climb the mountain, the gold will be in the bag when I get there.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: It may not have worked for you, but it's gonna work for me.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I find that so interesting about human nature because even when we work with athletes, if when we share our experience, and you know, it's a bit of a hard sell because I think it's like telling somebody that if they win a lottery, it's not gonna change their life the way they think it will.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, based on someone who's been there done that, right?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And they think we'll all be different.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: And yet, invariably, the human experience is quite consistent.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for many of us, we think life begins when the prize shows up.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: But when we can back it up and be present to the notion that life begins long before the prize.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's the exciting part of life, that the process is the part worth getting out of bed for.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Not just the bag of gold that invariably is empty.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember hearing that story and thinking, wow, I think maybe you have to live that in order for it to hit home, because that's what I believed.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Going to the Olympic Games, I mean, no, you know, the bag that I was searching for was a bag full of gold medals.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And clearly we didn't win, so there was no gold medal, but I believed that winning that Olympic final was going to be the beginning of my life.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: That in that moment I would be deemed good enough, and that I would be able to say, okay, that's it, Chase.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing left to do.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: You've reached the pinnacle, you are now worthy of love, and now it's time to enjoy life.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And yet, in hindsight, I look back to that journey, and there's so much about it that I didn't appreciate along the way because I was so uber focused on that one moment, that one achievement.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, you know, and again, the paradox being that hyperfocus interfered with my ability to achieve it.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I think if someone had pulled me aside at before the race or before I even started going to the Olympics and said, this is great that you want to go to the Olympics and win a gold medal.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome, way to go.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I want you to be clear that there is no gold medal or there aren't enough gold medals on this planet to make you feel different than how you feel now.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like you may think the gold medal is going to make you feel good enough, but it's not.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I always look to Michael Phelps as the poster child for that.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, goodness, how many dozen gold medals did that guy win?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: And he still crashed.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you can't argue that if he had just won one more gold medal, that he would have been fine and dandy.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's that's not how it works.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the lie that unfortunately many of us have to learn on our own.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: That it's not enough for you or I or anybody to, or Ted Turner, to share the story that be careful of your investment there because what you think is waiting for you is already within your grasp.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was long capable, long before that Olympic final, I had the power to determine if I was good enough.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: But I chose not to.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's an important lesson in there for all of us.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm sure people have the same story.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe not the Olympics, but they have an equivalent that they thought life would get better when I do this or when I have this.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're in sync uh with the process orientation.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: This may sound a bit like devil's advocate, but I just want to make the point clear as well that the outcomes can be awesome and great, and we value them.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And winning is fun.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Getting so that's not the issue.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's how we take the journey.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if the journey feels impoverished, then the likelihood that prize is going to elevate you is probably less likely.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it makes me think of the expression uh those people who think that money can't buy happiness haven't given enough away.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so giving money away and being generous in a material sense financially is an example that I think could be pretty sweet.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is but that's not so yeah, but that expression isn't well known.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's all about, you know, you can pay off your mortgage, you can buy a new car, you can travel the world.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's all about the perks, it's not about the innate human part of service, right?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: If we sold it as such, I think it would hold different value.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, because I totally get that.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I agree.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's coming back to a focus on what we can influence, the process living in the moment, and versus a mindset and an orientation that has one gripped by fear if they don't reach an outcome.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and what that does to the journey itself.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because we often come away from that with a less than evaluation of ourselves.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: If I lose, I am less than.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And whereas if we're engaged in process, losing or failure becomes information, not a damning, right?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a reflection of our identity.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's that something didn't go as well as it perhaps could have.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: And here's an opportunity for you to course correct.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a huge piece for me.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: When I started coaching, again, second time to it, when I started to embrace all the stuff I learned from you, where it was a boat process.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Losing no longer had the emotional punch that it had when I was a first-time coach or an athlete.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: What I made losing mean was that I was a loser.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, when I lost the Olympics, that was you are a freaking Olympic loser, buddy.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's nothing bigger that you could have lost doing.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: And perhaps that's true as an athlete, but I made it mean so much more.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And when I finally got to a place where losing means that something didn't go right or there's an opportunity here to get better, it's a much safer place to play because the identity piece isn't attached.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's an important takeaway for listeners is that when I make losing or failure be information as opposed to an identity or a commentary on who I am as an individual, as a human being, then I'm setting the stage for me to be better at whatever it is I do.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because to your point, the threat is not linked to the performance.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's you felt empowered and liberated by growing set.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: You betcha.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think it's important to say that it's not about letting go of excellence.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's about bringing excellence to the only moments that we can influence, which is the process.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think with a better strategy, I think in some time there were times, if I'm honest, excellence was something you kind of crossed your fingers for, that I hope this race goes well.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: When it was process-oriented, I'm going to do everything I can to make this race go well.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: So when I started to understand that results often made sense, so results reflected the process.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, as I've said before, there's never been an outcome that I've experienced, whether it's sport or otherwise, where I haven't in reflection gone, well, you know what?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: If I give this an honest reflection, the outcome is kind of reflective of the process.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so if I'm not okay with the outcome, where could my process have been better?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's back to that inquiry loop that we always like to use.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: What was good, what was tricky, what didn't go well, and what am I going to do next time to make it better?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so when that's the mode of operation, as opposed to if I lose, I'm crap, then it's just a totally different way to engage in life.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it doesn't matter what the endeavor is, it doesn't matter if it's sport, it doesn't matter if it's business, it doesn't matter.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's far more freedom and empowerment and excitement and fun.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: There is nothing more fun than putting together a plan and a strategy and having an intention and then going after it.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's life.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Couldn't agree with you more.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Living with presence is powerful and it's where peace and possibility live.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so the way that a process-oriented focus aligns with a well-regulated nervous system, being in an embodied and connected state, more aware of the people around us that we're working with, ourselves, being intentional.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's just so much that feeds us in that orientation.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it seems repetitive, but results matter to us, or we wouldn't be pursuing the goals.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it gives direction to what we're doing.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And honoring the grief that comes when we don't get the outcomes that we want, whether it's helping society shift, supporting someone who's struggling.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And whether it's business goals, parenting, uh, whatever the domain, we care about the things that we show up to.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it hurts a lot when the outcomes aren't what we aspire to, or they may be even beyond our lifetime.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we can give thought to how do I want to take this ride, who do I want to be?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: It also invites a sense of agency versus fear of I might or might not be able to actualize these outcomes.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I love this quote.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: The danger isn't caring about the result, the danger is needing the result to tell us who we are.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, wish someone had I wish someone had read me that quote when I was in my teens.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I likely wouldn't have, it would have depended who it was.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I mean, that just would have changed so much about how I engaged in sport.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and that would have been a huge piece.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: And when I got into coaching, that was actually the work that I tried to do was to try and, you know, it's not like it was just my generation or our generation in terms of that belief.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't stop after the 1970s, 80s, 90s.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's still there.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: And even the athletes that we work with now, or the business owners we work with now, they have huge aspirations.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like their goals are enormous.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's about not dialing back the pursuit of excellence.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's about getting perspective on what it is they want to achieve and why they think it's so important.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: So working with athletes who come to the table, wanting to win a gold medal, wanting a national championship, wanting a scholarship to the US, having parents who want the same thing.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Those are all outcome-focused.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: So you take a team full of athletes like that and you go, look, I understand all those things are important to you, and they're important to me too, but we're gonna try and put our energy somewhere else.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna say, look, that's great, but we're gonna set it aside, and we're gonna focus on what that all looks like.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: What does it look like to be a national championship team?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it looks like this kind of training, this kind of commitment, this sort of effort, this kind of diet, commitment to sleep, you know, whatever it is.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the difference between the focus on outcome versus process, is that you don't ignore the outcome.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: You don't say, oh, that's stupid.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay, that's great.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna set it aside and we're not gonna let it interfere or obsess over the things that are actually gonna get us there.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the piece that just did not connect for me when I was a younger man.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And not just with sport.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, goodness, when we started our food business way back when, you know, we didn't set out, we started, we had a fancy peanut butter business, for lack of a better term, in the during the 90s.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: And when Ian and I started that business, it's not like we sat down and said, hey, you know, we're gonna knock craft off the, you know, we're gonna get craft out of business, or we're gonna, you know, close skippies gonna be done when we get to the market.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: That wasn't the goal at all.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: We were quite fortunate in that we had perspective and we knew, you know, that would be ridiculous to try and compete with the crafts of the world or the skippies of the world.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: So we were almost forced into focusing on process.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: How do we make the best product that we can?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: How can we make it look, how can we affect the marketing?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: We took care of the controllables as opposed, and we just let go of the outcome.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: The byproduct of that was, yeah, we built, we made a really delicious product that people appreciated.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: But we weren't distracted by trying to achieve something that was unachievable.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I think that's the piece that if people can adapt that, they're better off in the end.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Another great example.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and a fun example, and a tasty example, and again to the point that process is not about dialing down ambition, it's about bringing disciplined wisdom to that ambition.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we focus on what where we have influence and the controllables, but it also relates to our values in terms of we're usually living our work in daily life is often related to achieving certain goals.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: So they're there.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's just how do we want to take the ride?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Who do we want to be individually and as a community or collective, whether it's in the workplace, as a family, within our culture, who do we want to be to one another in terms of how we live?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the richness that that offers as the primary frame to orient to the process ends up supporting less stress, more fulfillment, more alignment with who we want to be and greater satisfaction.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, again, back to the idea of the paradox that we think the outcome is going to be where life begins, right?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't matter what the endeavor is, whether it's putting on a performance, a play, a concert, creating a show, it doesn't begin opening night.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: It begins in all of the work that led up to that moment.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when we're able to embrace those moments, not only do they become more meaningful, but I just think we're more connected when we're talking about the idea of reactive versus response.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think it puts us more in that responsive, it certainly lines up with us being more responsive instead of reactive.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the power that's available there for sure.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and if you look at what helps people become who they want to become and to change where they're stuck, it's identifying the process that moved them forward in how they think, being open, accepting where they are, and a willingness to engage in action that's aligned with their values, whether they're in the mood or not.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's showing up even when it's not easy.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a process focus.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: One of the questions that I find uh super important, you know, can we pursue extraordinary outcomes without making our worth dependent on whether we achieve them?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's something worth contemplating.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where a lot of our work, that this notion of love first, that concept that we use in our work, that's where it applies.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is that can we love ourselves first?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Can we determine that we're worthy enough when we wake up in the morning and put our feet on the floor?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Does the day have to be perfect?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Do we have to do something extraordinary so that when we put our head on the pillow at night at the end of the day, we can go, okay, I get, you know, that was pretty good, and I guess I am worthy.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: The opportunity that we always invite our clients to consider is, you know, what would be possible?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: What are we capable of when we are good enough first, when we can love ourselves first?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a question that I wish I had asked myself as a young man, and not just because of sport, but anything.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Goodness.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for so many of us who are listening or watching at home, the idea that life begins after the outcome, that's just a straight up lie.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as a society, we don't do ourselves any favors when we perpetuate that that lie.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: It relates back to an earlier episode of being for ourselves, that we belong to life.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so to me, this conversation is where excellence, freedom, and love meet.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because when we get clear about what matters most to us, who we want to be, and our alignment with our values are the process that we engage in how we show up, then there's inherent fulfillment in that element.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: While we go after.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: And the go after is terrific.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, in no way do we want people to misinterpret this to be, oh, I need to be more apathetic and not care about the things I accomplish or do in my life.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think if anything, being focused on process allows us to be more ambitious.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: And again, that's the part that takes some conversing because it's not the thought you wake up with necessarily.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: You have to arrive at that place where, wow, I think, like, why wouldn't I try to do this?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: But as opposed to, wow, if I do this and it doesn't happen, then I'm this and I'm that.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: And there's so much fear wrapped up in an outcome-focused life.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: So much threat.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of that expression: whether I choose to do this or don't, I'm right in both, I'm going to be right.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: What's that expression?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Just screwed that.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you think you can or you go, thank you.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you think you can or you can't, you're right.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that sort of provides freedom.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: And whereas I think so does process.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Process provides freedom.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: If what's on the line is failing and learning, and I can live with that, then why wouldn't you try to achieve extraordinary things?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: This other one, we don't find our worth at the finish line, we bring our worth to the start line.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that's super powerful.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that if we can be worthy when we begin this pursuit of whatever it is we are, we set ourselves up for better outcomes.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: So what you're speaking to is how having an inherent sense of we belong, valuing ourselves, allows us to uh relax into a moment and ask, who do I want to be in this moment?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so we both know how much more fulfilling and enjoyable having a process or a focus has been in our evolution.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: It feels inherently more rewarding, we feel more connected to people.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's an immediacy and we're present and it allows us to take in the good, it allows us to appreciate, it allows us to be generous, it allows us to attend to others in ways that how can I serve?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: So there's so much goodness that flows from the the process-oriented stance of uh engaging what we care about.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's important for listeners to understand it's not like we've figured this out and so and now we're good.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I find with this podcast, even it's a reminder that yeah, this venture into a podcast could absolutely flop.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: But if that's all I'm concerned about every time we hit record, then I'm increasing the odds that it's going to bomb.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: But if I'm free to just play and say, well, when we make mistakes, when I screw up expressions like the one I just did, okay, so what?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not gonna die.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: We're just gonna get better, and of course we're gonna get better as we do this.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Goodness, we're four episodes into this.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we're constantly living this as well.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is everyday life, the reminder that the new things that we embark on will always present as the outcome will always be there to remind you that or sort of taunt you, I guess, right?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it's being it's having the presence of mind to say, okay, I get it, but I'm still going to focus over here.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that sort of segues to the question to leave with it with everybody is what is one outcome I care deeply about, and who do I want to become pursuing it?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: So right now, this podcast is something that we care deeply about.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if we focus on who we want to become as two guests or two hosts on this thing, then that's a better focus than where this could go.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess that's the question for you at home is you know, currently, what do you care deeply about?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: But more importantly, who do you want to become in that process of going after that dream or that goal or what have you?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well said.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so if you enjoyed this podcast, like, subscribe, comment, tell your friends, spread the news, and that'd be super helpful.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, we'll look forward to seeing you again on the next one.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, take care, everybody.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's it for today's episode of Imagine the Good.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and subscribe to the show.
• 38:50
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• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to head on over to ImaginTheGood.com and pick up a free copy of Jason and Robin's gift and join us on the next episode.