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Killer Thriller: Criminal Minds Star Kirsten Vangsness on the Double Life That Ended in Murder · Legally Brunette

0:13
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, This is Elisa Donovan and welcome to Killer Thriller. Today,
0:18
Speaker 1: I am continuing my conversation with actress and writer Kirsten Vang'sness,
0:23
Speaker 1: but this time we're stepping away from criminal minds and
0:26
Speaker 1: into one of Lifetime's most disturbing true crime films, Amish
0:31
Speaker 1: Stud The Eli Weaver Story. Based on a shocking real case,
0:36
Speaker 1: the film tells the story of Eli Weaver, an Amish
0:40
Speaker 1: husband who secretly created an online identity called Amish stud.
0:45
Speaker 1: He carried on multiple affairs and ultimately conspired with his
0:49
Speaker 1: mistress to murder his wife. But what makes this case
0:53
Speaker 1: so fascinating isn't just the crime itself. It's the psychology
0:58
Speaker 1: behind living a double life, the power of manipulation, and
1:01
Speaker 1: how ordinary people can convince themselves to do the unthinkable.
1:06
Speaker 1: This movie that I just watched, and it's one of
1:10
Speaker 1: these things where you feel like this can't be real,
1:14
Speaker 1: and yet it is. And it's called Amish Stud The
1:19
Speaker 1: Eli Weaver Story. So for people who aren't familiar with
1:24
Speaker 1: the Elia Weaver case, just walk us through what happened.
1:28
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, you have you do this all the time,
1:31
Speaker 2: But I feel something in my heart when you're talking
1:38
Speaker 2: about real people. I feel in my heart there's a
1:42
Speaker 2: woman in jail, and there's a family that lost people,
1:48
Speaker 2: and most these women that there's a man who did
1:51
Speaker 2: this stuff. Like they're real people that exist. And I
1:58
Speaker 2: it's very strange to like talk about the the worst
2:01
Speaker 2: days of people's lives and be like yeah, and I
2:04
Speaker 2: want to acknowledge that because it is crazy. So the
2:09
Speaker 2: Amish community, you know, which is a very the very
2:13
Speaker 2: very strict religion, and then there's a sort of an
2:17
Speaker 2: adjacent thing, which is Mennonite, which is a slightly less rulsy.
2:22
Speaker 2: So Ambish people are not allowed to drive, they have
2:26
Speaker 2: to wear a certain sort of costume. I'm using. I'm
2:29
Speaker 2: speaking draft and I apologize for any Amish people that
2:33
Speaker 2: have decided to listen to a radio program. So Menonite,
2:39
Speaker 2: they dress modestly, but they can still they can move
2:41
Speaker 2: about the world a little bit more. But Mennonite Amish
2:44
Speaker 2: people can sort of co habitate. And so this guy,
2:47
Speaker 2: Eli Weaver, my understanding is that he did not want
2:52
Speaker 2: to be with his wife anymore. His father was sort
2:54
Speaker 2: of up in the he was higher and higher up
2:58
Speaker 2: in the religion. He maybe he marries this woman you know,
3:04
Speaker 2: she's Amish, they have children. He decides he wants to
3:08
Speaker 2: I mean, who knows what he was doing beforehand, I mean,
3:11
Speaker 2: before all of this. But he goes on a Tinder
3:14
Speaker 2: situation SA sort of and posts a picture of himself
3:19
Speaker 2: and women find him attractive. And these are just women,
3:24
Speaker 2: non Amish women that end up, you know, enjoying spending
3:29
Speaker 2: time with him in a carnal way. And then he
3:33
Speaker 2: starts like suggesting to them, Hey, you like me so
3:38
Speaker 2: much because he's charming. And this is the problem is
3:41
Speaker 2: that charming isn't always good ye And they're like, oh,
3:46
Speaker 2: I like you so much, and he's like, yeah, how
3:48
Speaker 2: much do you like me? Because I got this wife? See,
3:51
Speaker 2: and if we didn't have her in the picture, you'd
3:54
Speaker 2: have all this to yourself. Widget Thank goodness for these
3:57
Speaker 2: women freaks them out and they're like, no, thank you, sir.
4:01
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, how is he getting to these women's houses? Right?
4:06
Speaker 2: How is he getting to go to some other woman?
4:09
Speaker 2: I think it was happening in Ohio? How is he
4:11
Speaker 2: driving into the city to meet these women because he
4:14
Speaker 2: has a horse and buggy, he has a friend, and
4:17
Speaker 2: the friend she barb your character. Yes, she would drive him.
4:25
Speaker 2: And not only that, but and Barb came from a
4:29
Speaker 2: in my understanding, and what I learned is that Barb
4:33
Speaker 2: came from I'm sure she had all kinds of nonsense
4:37
Speaker 2: happened to her when she was young. She was sort of,
4:42
Speaker 2: you know, cut out from the from the group in
4:45
Speaker 2: a way because of her promiscuity and things like that.
4:48
Speaker 2: She didn't feel like she was She wasn't particularly confident
4:51
Speaker 2: about herself. And here's this man that she finds attractive
4:55
Speaker 2: who wants to touch her and kiss her and stuff,
4:58
Speaker 2: and she doesn't mind driving him to see these ladies,
5:02
Speaker 2: so she starts doing that. Then he suggests to her,
5:06
Speaker 2: because none of these women are picking up, but he's
5:08
Speaker 2: throwing down, why don't you help me kill my wife
5:11
Speaker 2: because I love you and bless her heart, and she's married.
5:16
Speaker 2: They look up how to kill someone on her computer. Yeah,
5:19
Speaker 2: the story is is that he talked her into shooting
5:24
Speaker 2: his wife, and then when they arrested her in Ohio,
5:29
Speaker 2: my understanding is that she said, can I have a lawyer?
5:34
Speaker 2: And they said, you can have a lawyer if you
5:35
Speaker 2: ask for one, and she didn't understand. My understanding is
5:40
Speaker 2: she did not understand that they they took her saying
5:44
Speaker 2: can I have a lawyer? She thought that that was
5:47
Speaker 2: her asking and that they didn't give it to her,
5:49
Speaker 2: and so she never asked, so she didn't get a lawyer.
5:52
Speaker 2: Then they pushed her. She confessed. She said she couldn't
5:56
Speaker 2: really remember the whole thing about where the gunshot was
5:59
Speaker 2: far away. Close up, she says she never came into
6:02
Speaker 2: the room. The gunshot appears to be close to the chest.
6:06
Speaker 2: They went to Eli, the man who had gone to
6:09
Speaker 2: all these women, and said, well, you call my wife
6:10
Speaker 2: from me, and said, hey, we already got a confession
6:14
Speaker 2: from her. This is my understanding of what happened. I
6:16
Speaker 2: could be wrong. I'm just an actress. They said, do
6:19
Speaker 2: you You don't really need to confess because we have
6:23
Speaker 2: a confession. And so what happened was she came to
6:27
Speaker 2: trial and she was like, I love this mann and
6:31
Speaker 2: when we get out of jail, we're going to be together,
6:33
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And then he came in and he
6:38
Speaker 2: was the last person to testify against her, and he said, yeah,
6:43
Speaker 2: she did it. I didn't, and so she got more years,
6:50
Speaker 2: more time. Yeah. And when they asked him, why didn't
6:54
Speaker 2: you just divorce your wife. He said, this just seemed easier.
7:00
Speaker 2: This is like, again, unbelievable.
7:04
Speaker 1: So when I'm watching this movie, I'm going this cannot
7:08
Speaker 1: be real. And oftentimes and this is one of those times.
7:11
Speaker 2: And this woman when they went to go to her computer,
7:15
Speaker 2: she had like so many searches on how to kill
7:17
Speaker 2: someone with rat poison. Now she tried to kill his
7:19
Speaker 2: wife with rat poison, but she did the research. Like
7:22
Speaker 2: it's crazy.
7:23
Speaker 1: It's crazy the amount of things that they did that
7:26
Speaker 1: they did not think would be found out. Or I
7:30
Speaker 1: mean the fact that his online name on these dating
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Speaker 1: sites was Amish stud It's like, nope, this is not
7:39
Speaker 1: a fabrication.
7:40
Speaker 2: And believe me, when you get the call to be
7:43
Speaker 2: like hey do you want to be in this movie?
7:45
Speaker 2: And the title I saw it and what was so crazy?
7:48
Speaker 2: This is a true story. I was driving in on
7:52
Speaker 2: my street and my friend, my friend's friend was fixing
7:55
Speaker 2: her screen door. This is crazy story six your screen door.
7:59
Speaker 2: She's like, oh, here, this is my friend and I
8:02
Speaker 2: told you the actor else is Carpenter. I'm like, oh, hi,
8:04
Speaker 2: nice to meet. And I'm like, oh my god, he's
8:05
Speaker 2: so cool. I go back. It was Luke Hi I'm Kirsten.
8:11
Speaker 2: I go back home. I get home and I had
8:14
Speaker 2: known about Luke because Luke was my friend's friend and
8:16
Speaker 2: I know he's I was like, oh, he was in
8:19
Speaker 2: he was in Bros. Uh and I love that movie
8:22
Speaker 2: and he's queer like me, and but he plays a
8:24
Speaker 2: straight guy and a lot of things and and uh.
8:29
Speaker 2: I get home like that night and my agent's like, hey,
8:32
Speaker 2: do you want to do this movie. It's called The
8:34
Speaker 2: Amish Stud and the guy playing the stud is Luke McFarlane.
8:39
Speaker 2: Oh met him And I was like what And of course,
8:44
Speaker 2: and I'm with a cisgender straight man, so you know,
8:48
Speaker 2: there's they can get intimidated and you're like, I'm gonna
8:51
Speaker 2: go away to Canada and you know, roll around right.
8:54
Speaker 2: And then when you're like, oh, this is gonna be
8:56
Speaker 2: the funnest thing in the world. Because I'm queer, he's queer.
9:00
Speaker 2: We had the goofiest we had never really met, aside
9:03
Speaker 2: from the you know, the infamous high I mean grain Door.
9:07
Speaker 2: And then I get there. On our first day, we
9:10
Speaker 2: are in a car making out and so much fun.
9:14
Speaker 2: It was like Hi, Hi, and then you're just like like,
9:18
Speaker 2: We're off to the races. Now now everything else is
9:20
Speaker 2: going to be easy. It was felt so at home
9:22
Speaker 2: because a lot of times, because I'm so straight passing,
9:25
Speaker 2: I can get into environments where I'm like, oh, it
9:28
Speaker 2: felt it can be a little heteronormative, which is a
9:31
Speaker 2: hard thing to explain if you're a straight person. You
9:33
Speaker 2: don't know. You're like, oh, I don't know what it's like,
9:35
Speaker 2: because it can be odd. So it felt really freeing
9:40
Speaker 2: to do all the stuff we had to do, and
9:44
Speaker 2: we had a really good time. And anyway, it's crazy
9:46
Speaker 2: because it's so horribly sad but also so crazy. And
9:52
Speaker 2: she was so in love with.
9:54
Speaker 1: She was so in love with him, that's what's so heartbreaking,
9:58
Speaker 1: and that he was leading this double triple, quadruple life
10:03
Speaker 1: like he had so many women.
10:05
Speaker 2: She really thought that this was going to get her,
10:11
Speaker 2: you know, hot dude to love her, which is probably yes.
10:14
Speaker 2: I think she wanted more than anything or her whole life.
10:31
Speaker 1: The court scene at the end with it's so you're
10:35
Speaker 1: heartbreaking in it because you see this woman where her
10:39
Speaker 1: own her actual husband is in the courtroom and he
10:42
Speaker 1: leaves because it's clear that this woman loves someone else, and.
10:47
Speaker 2: What is he doing there?
10:48
Speaker 1: So he leaves her, and then the man that she
10:51
Speaker 1: thinks she's done all this for comes in and essentially
10:55
Speaker 1: lies and says it's all her fault and it's just heartbreak,
11:00
Speaker 1: and it feels like, once again, the woman gets the
11:05
Speaker 1: very short end of the stick here.
11:08
Speaker 2: I think about it all the time. I think about I.
11:10
Speaker 2: I I love I love that. That's the lifetime movie
11:16
Speaker 2: I've gotten to do. Like I love that, Like that's
11:19
Speaker 2: very happy. Yes, I love the whole I loved doing it.
11:22
Speaker 2: I love all of that, And I'm it does not
11:25
Speaker 2: escape me that there's like someone in a jail cell again. Monsters,
11:30
Speaker 2: great monsters, behavior, reprehensible. Don't really know if she even
11:36
Speaker 2: knows what she actually did, Like I don't really know.
11:41
Speaker 2: We will never know did she shoot or did she
11:45
Speaker 2: stand at the doorway and see that she had already
11:48
Speaker 2: been shot and that her brain just went off, Oh wow,
11:54
Speaker 2: So you.
11:54
Speaker 1: Think maybe he did it and they don't know.
11:57
Speaker 2: I don't know because some of the stuff that I
12:00
Speaker 2: read it was like the gunshot was so close and
12:03
Speaker 2: she I believe again speaking in draft, speaking and draft
12:06
Speaker 2: because you're hearing an actress tell you what she remembers.
12:10
Speaker 2: But also you know, all the character choices you make
12:13
Speaker 2: or whatever. But I believe that they even like why
12:17
Speaker 2: detect her or her or whatever? But I she maintained
12:22
Speaker 2: that she never went into the room and the gunshot
12:25
Speaker 2: was close range, so she maintains she had a shotgun
12:28
Speaker 2: from far away and he left to go fishing or something. Right,
12:33
Speaker 2: the children found her. It's like and the and the
12:38
Speaker 2: woman who has been accused Barb will not she'll get
12:43
Speaker 2: out of jail in like twenty thirty three. And I
12:47
Speaker 2: believe I could be wrong, but I think he got out.
12:51
Speaker 1: So we just looked he was up Eli was up
12:53
Speaker 1: for parole, oh and did not make it. And his
12:57
Speaker 1: next parole eligibility is twenty thirty two, so he is
13:00
Speaker 1: still in prison at least.
13:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's up for Pearl. I think in twenty thirty three.
13:05
Speaker 2: That or twenty thirty or something that's running in my
13:07
Speaker 2: head and not that, like I don't Yeah, but it
13:11
Speaker 2: is wild because that's exactly the thing. Like I have
13:14
Speaker 2: done some crazy things. I have not heard another human,
13:19
Speaker 2: it's clear, besides myself, but I have done some crazy
13:23
Speaker 2: things on dopamine because I had a crush on somebody. Yes, right, right,
13:28
Speaker 2: It's just that yep, super extended right on massive steroids.
13:35
Speaker 1: What do you think that Barb saw in Eli or
13:38
Speaker 1: was it just that he just paid attention to her that.
13:41
Speaker 2: Same thing that all of us have seen in that.
13:43
Speaker 2: I mean, Goddess, God, all the angels love you. If
13:47
Speaker 2: you have not fallen prey to a fantastic love bomb,
13:51
Speaker 2: I mean all of us have done that. I've gotten
13:54
Speaker 2: engaged to that where I've been like, this seems like
13:58
Speaker 2: a great it.
14:00
Speaker 1: Right, It's literally like the stars in the eyes.
14:02
Speaker 2: Like the car even look like a pictures of me
14:06
Speaker 2: and I have crazy eyes, and I'm like, it's fine,
14:10
Speaker 2: and I've made it's great. It's great, and you don't
14:13
Speaker 2: notice and that you know, I have this show that
14:18
Speaker 2: I wrote about, I'm about to start touring it, and
14:22
Speaker 2: I filmed it because it's incredibly valuable. I think for
14:25
Speaker 2: feminine bet creatures about online dating, we can fall prey
14:31
Speaker 2: to things because there are people. We make assumptions that
14:34
Speaker 2: people are coming with the same intentions as us. Simple
14:36
Speaker 2: and one of the things that I learned in that
14:40
Speaker 2: is that a feminine bet creature, the way our hormones
14:43
Speaker 2: move is when we hardcore make out with somebody, we
14:48
Speaker 2: have a rise in the bonding hormones, right, huge rise.
14:53
Speaker 2: A masculine bent person, the testosterone cancels out that bonding
14:57
Speaker 2: hormone within forty eight hours. So a woman or someone
15:03
Speaker 2: who has a lot of feminine hormones can be chemically
15:06
Speaker 2: addicted to someone they don't even like up to like
15:10
Speaker 2: six months. And wow, and I'm talking hardcore makeout. That
15:15
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean intercourse. That truly means but that physical
15:19
Speaker 2: that like that physical connection, the touch. You can think
15:24
Speaker 2: that and that's what makes us crazy. That's why I mean,
15:27
Speaker 2: I'm all for, like, go do whatever you want with
15:29
Speaker 2: your body, as often as you want, with whoever you want.
15:33
Speaker 2: But I learned the hard way that like, if I
15:38
Speaker 2: make out with somebody, I will get tricked that they
15:42
Speaker 2: are somehow the answer to all of my problems and
15:45
Speaker 2: the greatest thing that has ever existed, and they could
15:48
Speaker 2: never and they're the best. And they like breathing and
15:50
Speaker 2: I like breathing, So clearly, leman to like, I think
15:54
Speaker 2: that is what And you add that someone who's charming
15:58
Speaker 2: someone who I had heard this thing probably from Instagram,
16:04
Speaker 2: but I think it's true. It's like the difference between
16:08
Speaker 2: a narcissist. There there's a key difference with like a
16:11
Speaker 2: narcissist or someone with maybe a bad narcissist, because everybody
16:16
Speaker 2: you know who there are people that will go into
16:19
Speaker 2: a room and they'll look around and they'll be able
16:20
Speaker 2: to look at the people and be able to extract
16:24
Speaker 2: what they want. Right, Oh, I can see what you like,
16:27
Speaker 2: so I'm going to do what I do to extract.
16:30
Speaker 2: There is a version of that that's good, which is
16:32
Speaker 2: where you go into a room and you see, oh,
16:34
Speaker 2: I see what and you both extract and you give.
16:38
Speaker 2: So you both go oh I in exchange. Yeah, I
16:41
Speaker 2: could use that, but you know what, you should meet
16:43
Speaker 2: that person and you so it's like you're connecting things.
16:46
Speaker 2: But there's a certain kind of charisma of someone who
16:50
Speaker 2: has charisma but isn't using it for good for good, right,
16:55
Speaker 2: They're using it for just their own purpose. And and
16:58
Speaker 2: I think that's important for us to realist, because isn't
17:00
Speaker 2: it's fine, but when you're you're lucky enough to have all,
17:03
Speaker 2: it's your job to not use it to prey upon people.
17:08
Speaker 1: Because it certainly seems that some of this is based
17:11
Speaker 1: on Barb's loneliness, right, And.
17:14
Speaker 3: You look at it.
17:14
Speaker 2: You look at pictures of her and like, bless her heart,
17:17
Speaker 2: Like it doesn't seem it seems like you know, I
17:19
Speaker 2: think a lot of times if someone had like a
17:21
Speaker 2: skin issue when they're growing up, it makes you really insecure.
17:25
Speaker 2: And I think it looks like she had that, Like
17:27
Speaker 2: there are things that you know and you're growing up
17:30
Speaker 2: in Mennonite and if she was promiscuous and you want
17:34
Speaker 2: you feel valuable or you want to use your body
17:38
Speaker 2: for fun and then you have to dress a certain
17:40
Speaker 2: way and cover up this, there's like a lot of
17:43
Speaker 2: things happening. Yeah, yeah, a lot of things.
17:46
Speaker 1: And and his you know, exploitation of the religion, the
17:51
Speaker 1: way he controls his wife and twisting the language to
17:57
Speaker 1: make her submissive and do things that he wants her
18:01
Speaker 1: to do, and her insides are going, this isn't what
18:04
Speaker 1: my religion says, Like she can she is questioning that,
18:09
Speaker 1: and then that's ultimately what gets her killed.
18:11
Speaker 2: Like yeah, and I think and also the other thing
18:13
Speaker 2: in that, I mean, we're giving away the movie, but
18:15
Speaker 2: you should still watch it. It's it's a it's it's
18:18
Speaker 2: strange because you're like, you can't believe this is happening.
18:21
Speaker 2: But like he was in love he actually wasn't in
18:23
Speaker 2: love with this other woman. They they don't explore that
18:26
Speaker 2: a lot in the movie, but there And that's the
18:28
Speaker 2: other thing you have to remember is there's incredibly reasonable
18:31
Speaker 2: people that will do some crazy stuff. There was a
18:34
Speaker 2: woman who was.
18:34
Speaker 1: Like, you know, which one was he in love with
18:36
Speaker 1: in real life? The one that wouldn't that wouldn't say
18:39
Speaker 1: you stay with him, hung out with her kids and stuff.
18:42
Speaker 2: Yes, he was like trying to like he wanted to
18:45
Speaker 2: be with her. And I think that just like any
18:48
Speaker 2: good uh uh, you know whatever, whatever he he has
18:53
Speaker 2: working on him. Uh, it's like there's moments of him
18:57
Speaker 2: where he can be the best. That woman was getting
19:01
Speaker 2: the best of him, the best of him. And then
19:03
Speaker 2: you think about what's going on with his wife, and
19:05
Speaker 2: if you if you like there's a part of it.
19:07
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm I'm like, Okay, if he had had
19:12
Speaker 2: appropriate learning about consent or or a woman's sexual response
19:19
Speaker 2: cycle or whatever, right, and he cared about that, and
19:22
Speaker 2: let's say he wants to do a little power play
19:24
Speaker 2: with his wife, there's an appropriate way to talk about that,
19:27
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. But they're amassed and we're
19:30
Speaker 2: losing some some resources, you know what I mean. So
19:33
Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff happening.
19:36
Speaker 3: Yeah.
19:50
Speaker 1: Also, because he wasn't getting physically what he wanted from
19:54
Speaker 1: that woman, he continued to give.
19:57
Speaker 2: Her the best. It's like that has to be a part.
19:59
Speaker 1: Of the narcissism in some way, like I will make
20:03
Speaker 1: her want me and the way I need to be wanted,
20:06
Speaker 1: you know, And.
20:07
Speaker 2: That's when it works, right, that's when if you can
20:10
Speaker 2: get if they can fall in love with someone who
20:12
Speaker 2: never really gives them what they want, then that person
20:15
Speaker 2: is just pebbling. And I'm not saying that anybody out
20:18
Speaker 2: there who is in love with a narcissts like that's
20:20
Speaker 2: how to get them, because that is how to get them.
20:22
Speaker 2: But you have to be able to do it organically,
20:23
Speaker 2: because that you stop then all it all. You have
20:28
Speaker 2: to run away. Those of you who are out there
20:32
Speaker 2: with one, just just go get out, start entertaining the ideas. Now,
20:38
Speaker 2: just start your imagine it. We're here from the future
20:42
Speaker 2: to tell right, it does not get better. I just
20:46
Speaker 2: like get better, no matter how many times they tell
20:48
Speaker 2: you that they're you know, and no matter how many
20:50
Speaker 2: voice memos you leave to yourself that this type Nope, sorry, yep.
20:55
Speaker 1: And this I feel like this story it really reminds
20:58
Speaker 1: us that human nature doesn't change and it doesn't discriminate
21:02
Speaker 1: dependent upon what religion you are, where you live, what
21:06
Speaker 1: your sexual orientation is.
21:08
Speaker 2: Like, human nature is human nature is human nature, and
21:14
Speaker 2: I mean it's wonderful, but you know, I feel like
21:18
Speaker 2: it's just always a reminder that we can act like
21:21
Speaker 2: a human animal or act out of our human spirit,
21:25
Speaker 2: and it is a choice. And sometimes whether it's avoiding
21:28
Speaker 2: cake or not stabbing someone in the face, the acting
21:31
Speaker 2: and human spirit can be a little uncomfortable.
21:33
Speaker 1: It can be a little uncomfortable. There is something about
21:37
Speaker 1: this because of the premeditation of it.
21:40
Speaker 3: You know.
21:40
Speaker 1: Sometimes on the show we talk about impulsive things that
21:44
Speaker 1: happen and murders in that way. But this was so premeditated,
21:49
Speaker 1: and it's like he this kind of slow brainwashing almost
21:55
Speaker 1: that he does of her, And look.
21:58
Speaker 2: What there's it can go both ways. I don't know.
22:00
Speaker 2: I'm not in that woman's I wasn't in her mind.
22:03
Speaker 2: I would like, I don't know. It gets me through
22:05
Speaker 2: the night thinking like, oh is it that? I mean,
22:09
Speaker 2: this gets me through the night when I think about
22:10
Speaker 2: all the horrible things that people do. I think, like,
22:12
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, is it that they had it so
22:15
Speaker 2: bad that they just assume like, well, too bad, you know,
22:19
Speaker 2: like nobody came for me. So I don't care? Or
22:24
Speaker 2: are there just people? I mean, it's just a question.
22:27
Speaker 2: And I don't know. I'm not that person. I don't
22:29
Speaker 2: wander through the world and go like it doesn't matter
22:32
Speaker 2: whether that person lives or dies, and you know, like
22:35
Speaker 2: I and I guess there are people like that, but
22:37
Speaker 2: I'm constantly if you really extrapolate what you're thinking, like
22:42
Speaker 2: you're really thinking that, are you really thinking it through?
22:45
Speaker 2: Or when you think that you want a certain kind
22:49
Speaker 2: of person or whatever person gone? Are you Are you
22:52
Speaker 2: understanding that they're connected to other people? Are you understanding
22:55
Speaker 2: that they have a mom and that they baby? You
22:59
Speaker 2: understanding looks like like right, there's like a compartmentalization.
23:04
Speaker 1: It must be, you know if or or are all
23:07
Speaker 1: of the people that do these things in some form
23:10
Speaker 1: of mental disorder.
23:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, they think that everybody evaporates like in a video game,
23:16
Speaker 2: like because that's not how it worked, Like, so I
23:22
Speaker 2: don't and I don't know, is that like is that
23:25
Speaker 2: a special skill? That I have to put myself in
23:26
Speaker 2: the shoes that those people.
23:29
Speaker 1: Well, I think part of being a human being is
23:32
Speaker 1: having or a healthy which there's a broad spectrum of
23:36
Speaker 1: what that is. But of being a healthy person is
23:39
Speaker 1: having some amount of empathy, some amount of understanding one another.
23:46
Speaker 2: And I mean, and again there.
23:47
Speaker 1: Are some people that are really unjust on the edge
23:51
Speaker 1: of that.
23:51
Speaker 2: I can't really but I think that there's times I
23:55
Speaker 2: have loads of empathy, I think, but there are times,
24:00
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, that I have to be like, what
24:04
Speaker 2: would be the normal person empathetically this situation, right, you
24:09
Speaker 2: know what I mean? And that is that is still okay,
24:13
Speaker 2: it's behavior. Let's get in trouble for the things you
24:20
Speaker 2: think right, right?
24:21
Speaker 1: And we can all have big feelings and they can
24:24
Speaker 1: be overwhelming.
24:25
Speaker 2: They don't always get to act on them.
24:28
Speaker 1: And even like in Jail, he's hitting on the woman
24:32
Speaker 1: who works in the store in the movie, Like, do
24:35
Speaker 1: you know if that was dramatic license or if that
24:36
Speaker 1: was real?
24:37
Speaker 2: I don't. I want to believe it's real. It's got
24:39
Speaker 2: to be real, you know what I mean. He's got
24:42
Speaker 2: to be using that for something, ye don't. I don't
24:46
Speaker 2: think that's the other thing is that, like you know,
24:48
Speaker 2: there are certain kinds of people, Like I've talked to
24:51
Speaker 2: my therapist about this, because I have I'm fascinated, you know,
24:55
Speaker 2: by why why.
24:56
Speaker 3: Would they do that?
24:57
Speaker 1: Again?
24:58
Speaker 2: Why would they? Why? And and you know you want
25:01
Speaker 2: to get in there and you want to try to
25:02
Speaker 2: fix it or you want to try to make sense
25:04
Speaker 2: of it, and and it all boils down. I think
25:07
Speaker 2: all boys my understanding. It's like we all have this
25:10
Speaker 2: little kid, this little victim, this little something that's living
25:14
Speaker 2: inside of us, right, and we get hurt and we
25:18
Speaker 2: act out out of that. And I think that people
25:20
Speaker 2: who have these big masks on that are doing terrible things,
25:24
Speaker 2: they have that too. The difference is they can't access it.
25:29
Speaker 2: They don't even know it's there. They don't have the
25:32
Speaker 2: wiring to go into their body and go, hey, it's okay.
25:37
Speaker 2: And they don't have the wiring to understand that wonder
25:42
Speaker 2: doesn't come that the God, wonder, nature, beauty doesn't come
25:49
Speaker 2: from anything but inside their own body. So like you
25:53
Speaker 2: and I can sunset and be like, look at what
25:57
Speaker 2: something the mystery of it all is made. But somebody
26:02
Speaker 2: who isn't, who isn't who can do these things. My
26:07
Speaker 2: understanding is they don't literally have the wiring to understand
26:12
Speaker 2: that there's things bigger than them, right, And that is
26:17
Speaker 2: heartbreakingly sad and also lets you know like how hopeless
26:21
Speaker 2: it is for them. Right. The best they can do
26:24
Speaker 2: is like do no harm.
26:26
Speaker 1: Right, Like that would be the best case scenario is
26:29
Speaker 1: to just not hurt.
26:31
Speaker 2: Why they would hurt other people is because they literally
26:34
Speaker 2: don't have the wiring to go in their own body.
26:37
Speaker 2: So they're just kind of walking around the world and
26:41
Speaker 2: poking at other things with a stick, either by you know,
26:46
Speaker 2: you know, collecting massive amounts of money that they don't need,
26:49
Speaker 2: or hurting people or whatever. They're just doing that because
26:53
Speaker 2: they need to see something get affected, because they don't
26:57
Speaker 2: have it inside their to be able to stare at
27:02
Speaker 2: the universe and realize how massively significant and simultaneously important
27:07
Speaker 2: that they are.
27:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's partly sociopathic, right. I mean,
27:12
Speaker 1: I hate to like throw these words around, like I
27:14
Speaker 1: fully know what they mean, and I you know, I'm
27:17
Speaker 1: not a scientist, but I think that is part of it.
27:19
Speaker 2: But it is not having that in there. But then
27:24
Speaker 2: there are people and I think they are sociopathic people
27:26
Speaker 2: who could do this, who can be like, hey, wait,
27:29
Speaker 2: what would be the normal appropriate response to this? What
27:32
Speaker 2: should I be doing? You know what I mean? And
27:34
Speaker 2: they don't have the wiring necessarily be like, oh ah,
27:37
Speaker 2: and those people probably make really great surgeons or or
27:42
Speaker 2: like or serial killers. But I'm saying there must be
27:45
Speaker 2: good jobs, yes, good jobs for that.
27:47
Speaker 1: Where you're you're because they say technicians and very.
27:50
Speaker 2: My understanding is that narcissists. I've seen this happen in
27:53
Speaker 2: real time. It's fascinating. I have touched this. Narcissists and
27:59
Speaker 2: people that are like true clinically bananas like that. And
28:02
Speaker 2: I say that with compassion because I'm bananas too in
28:05
Speaker 2: my own way, me too. Our nervous system, yes, their
28:09
Speaker 2: their nervous system. They get calmer when they lie. Were
28:12
Speaker 2: you and I we got caught out on something? Are
28:15
Speaker 2: our nervous sys is all crazy? They get calmer because
28:20
Speaker 2: the idea is not to be truthful. The idea is
28:23
Speaker 2: to get what you want, okay, what you want right.
28:26
Speaker 2: So that's why they can go and they can lie
28:29
Speaker 2: in a courtroom or about something that happened because it
28:31
Speaker 2: doesn't matter whether it's true or not isn't that crazy?
28:34
Speaker 1: Yes, that is so fascinating, and it completely makes sense,
28:38
Speaker 1: right because then it's simply about exactly right, like the
28:41
Speaker 1: nervous because just as you said, if I even do
28:43
Speaker 1: like a little fib about something or feel like I
28:47
Speaker 1: might have hurt someone, it's like I can barely you know, breathe.
28:51
Speaker 2: I'm like sweating, and I feel we have an internal
28:54
Speaker 2: locust that is telling you which way to point. They
28:57
Speaker 2: don't have that. The only thing that's pointing is what
28:59
Speaker 2: they want. So it's like it's a very gross robot.
29:04
Speaker 2: I would not be surprised if we find out that
29:06
Speaker 2: all the robots, all all the narcissis are robots, right,
29:09
Speaker 2: I mean right, they're not. It's sad. It's just the
29:12
Speaker 2: mom and dad didn't hug them and they didn't go
29:14
Speaker 2: to therapy.
29:15
Speaker 1: Well, and this is you know, of all the things
29:18
Speaker 1: that we talk about on this podcast, you know, ninety
29:21
Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of the time, the source of
29:24
Speaker 1: these things are you know, loneliness, lack of love, a
29:29
Speaker 1: need for uh physical touch or being cared for, Like
29:34
Speaker 1: all of these really aame.
29:36
Speaker 2: What shame, what sha does to people, What an unexamined
29:42
Speaker 2: shame does to be yes, yes, terrible.
29:46
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I you are so wonderful and you've got
29:52
Speaker 1: like such a great spirit. I'm so happy to have
29:55
Speaker 1: met you, even on the screen, and I feel we're
29:57
Speaker 1: connected with our tigers.
29:59
Speaker 2: I know, I know. I love it. This was fun.
30:01
Speaker 2: I really you are great.
30:03
Speaker 1: And Eli the Amish stud The Eli Weavers Story is
30:07
Speaker 1: streaming now.
30:08
Speaker 2: Everyone should watch it.
30:09
Speaker 1: And Criminal Minds Evolution.
30:13
Speaker 2: Evolution it's currently on where currently you can see it
30:16
Speaker 2: on Paramount Plus up to season nineteen. I have no
30:19
Speaker 2: idea when season twenty comes out, And uh, what else
30:23
Speaker 2: can I tell you about? I do a show called
30:26
Speaker 2: Kirsten's Agenda on YouTube about local politics in Los Angeles.
30:31
Speaker 2: But I think it's fascinating all kinds of politics wherever
30:35
Speaker 2: you are and great and if you can spell my name,
30:39
Speaker 2: which is Kirsten Banksnas you can find me on Instagram.
30:43
Speaker 2: And when my TikTok account becomes real again, I'll be
30:46
Speaker 2: on that too,