Latest / Radio 831: A Romance Podcast / Yearning, Wuthering Heights with Betty Corrello, and a Backlist Reading Assignment

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Yearning, Wuthering Heights with Betty Corrello, and a Backlist Reading Assignment · Radio 831: A Romance Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to the Radio eight three one podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: We're your hosts, Sinjonabasker and Tyler McCall, and.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: We're so excited to talk everything romance, from the novels
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: and the tropes to the book to screen adaptations and
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: of course the drama of it all. You know, unpacking
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: what the genre says about who we are and how
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: we love.
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: Big stuff, important stuff like say, yearning, yearning.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Which has been like the subject of conversation in media lately.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: There's a really wonderful article by Alison P. Davis in
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: New York Magazine that like captured what the year of
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: the year and looked like for twenty twenty five. But
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: now we are in twenty twenty six, work halfway through
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, and everyone is still talking about yearning.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: So I guess the question is really like, what is
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: the status of yearning? But also so why this word?
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Why are we so interested in yearning as a quality
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: as opposed to like any other word that we could
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: use to describe intimacy or desire or wanting something. Why
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: yearn above anything else?
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I sort of feel like the thesis of Allison's piece
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: was that these teen oriented shows like specifically the summer
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: I turned pretty brought back into our lives for adults,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: the idea of crushing when you're younger, and I feel
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: like yearning is such a big part of that. It
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: feels so much bigger than just oh, I have a
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: crush or I like somebody. Yeah, but also yearning is
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: something that is harder to do in today's digitally focused
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: dating landscape.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Oh totally.
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: I think we as a culture miss the opportunity to yearn.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Do you mean because there's like the instant gratification of
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: let me look at all of the available people, rather
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: than the distance between what is wanted and subject of wanting.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: I feel like there's so little mystery.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of mystery, as in like
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: what's wrong with people, but like right, there's a very.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: Little mystery in that most of.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: The time, if I have a crush on somebody, I
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: can I don't know, go through their Instagram and like
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: see what they were doing in twenty fifteen, or like
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: I can go through.
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: Their Twitter, Blue Sky or Threads or whatever various.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Social media apps they have to see what thoughts they
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: had about whatever.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: To yearn, there's like an aspect of absence or mystery. Yeah,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: but I feel like we need to bring back well.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: I mean I think it's the thing of like wanting
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: something or someone is not a credit to the subject
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: of that yearning. It's something that you offer yourself. Yeah,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: it's a relationship to desire that you offer yourself. You
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: are capable of like wanting and feeling and like seeking
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: is is I think as much about the person that
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: you feel that way tours as it is about your
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: own relationship with yourself, which is things can be so valuable,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: so meaningful, even if they aren't satisfying in the way
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: that like our consumer society finds things satisfying. Yeah, Like
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: there's like a beauty to being, Like even even when
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: we're talking about like an object right of being Like
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: this is a designer handbag that I've like wanted for
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: years and years and I've saved so much money for.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: And the like process of working towards this thing, like
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: the friction of pursuit is like as fulfilling for people
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: who like really love to shop as it is to
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: actually receive the object and like have it in your hands, Yes,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: which is like the end of a relationship. All of
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: a sudden like a new relationship has been born now
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: that the object is in hand, but like, yeah, the
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: pursuit is lost, but it was beautiful too, Yeah, like worthwhile. Also,
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: I think that.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: There's a component to yearning that involves pain to some degree,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: like a loss or a pain or like because there's
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: an absence, there's like the wanting is caused by an absence.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: And I find there to be something beautiful and rewarding
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: about that feeling, right, Like all we have is being
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: human and experiencing this broad spectrum of emotions, and yearning
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: kind of encompasses like that broad spectrum. It's kind of
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: a high, like an emotional high, but it's also this
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: kind of pinching feeling.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: It's I love yearning.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: This is why it makes me think about Pillion too,
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: which yes, God, I loved that movie, to be clear,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: Like for romance heads, people are happy at the end,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: but it is not a happily ever after, right, Like
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: to be clear, But I think that that movie is
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: so about Callin and cultivating his own relationship to wanting
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: and desire, And like I think every day of my
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: life since watching that movie about the line where Colin
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: says that like Ray keeps him around. Ray this like
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: beautiful man played by Alexander Scarscard, who is like, oh
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: my god, he's so hot in that movie. It's like
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: really sick. It's like it's really kind of sick and twisted.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: But Colin says that Ray keeps him around because he
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: has a particular aptitude for devotion. Yeah, oh my god,
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: it's so good. But I think that too speaks of like,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: first of all, their relationship itself is one where Colin
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: is yearning even as they are together. Yes, there is
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: an absence, there is a distance that like makes him
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: more hungry, more desirous, more wanting in a way that
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: I think is really beautiful. And the like kind of
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: ending of it, where in like Colin and Ray spoiler
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: alert do not end up together, is also one where
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: like he has cultivated his relationship to want and it
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: has like fundamentally transformed him to the point that it
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: alters how he moves forward in the world for the better. Yes,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: like the act of having wanted has like done good
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: for him.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: It's funny that you said that line, because I also
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: have a line that has stuck with me since I
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: saw it, which is Colin tells Ray that he's that
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: he loves him, and Ray's like, well, that's not the
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: point of this, yeah, And Colin says, isn't that the
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: point of everything?
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Like isn't love the point of everything?
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, my aart, I know, I'm so moved
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: by that.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: I feel like, for me anyway, something about the end
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: of last year collectively, whatever we all experienced, yeah, in
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: the world, something about that for me has really framed
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: through that lens of like of what we're talking about,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: of yearning of love, Like isn't love the point of everything?
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Also, like ironic detachment is often perceived as the like
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: superior intellectual position, like the more rigorous intellectual position too.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: And I think that like, as romance people, we've probably
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: encountered there's a million times in like telling people about
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: our interests and having them be like off put by
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: the like deep sincerity or clarity of fondness we have
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: for this thing. I think it exposes to me the
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: degree to which people see it as like intellectually less rigorous,
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: which I'm like, okay, I'm sure, sure, sure. But I
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: also I mean I think a lot about our friend
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: mel Yes, who's like one of the most brilliant people
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: we know, one of the smartest people I've ever met
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: my life. Yeah, truly, truly, truly. I think they said
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: something once about lit Thick where they were like, I
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: don't necessarily love Litvik because it assumes that everyone is
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: as cynical and jaded as they are, like like a
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: lot of these characters are. And I think about that
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: a lot too, in the context of yearning, which is
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: like such an unabashed, naked exposure to feeling that is
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: like almost cloying at times. Right, there are times where
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: I watch summary turn pretty and I'm like, oh my god,
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: I could be sick. I could be Yeah, I could
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: be sick like the things that he went through in that.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Therapeutically speaking, I would not touch that with a ten
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: foot pole.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: My professional opinion is that it's bad, but my personal
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: opinion is that it's really good. If we talk about
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: normal people, if we talk about Jane Austen, if we
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: talk about Wuthering Heights, yearning is also central component to.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: All of those things. Yeah, they feel more valid to
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: certain types of people.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: And it feels very clear to me where yearning emerges
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: from as like not just a trend, but as like
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: a true movement towards something which we may not ever reach,
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, as is the yearning premise.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: As is appropriate for yearning.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but it feels useful to return to it
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: as an act because it shapes us as much as
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: it shapes the subject of yearning. Yeah.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: So I mentioned Wathering Heights in Passing, but I think
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: we really got to dig into it, both because it's
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: a it's a foundational text for yearning, but also extremely
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: relevant to this year because we had the film adaptation
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: come out for Valentine's Day, for a Gallantine's Day if
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: you will, if you haven't seen it, I believe it's
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: on streaming. It's definitely video on demand. You can rent
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: it at home. That's between you and your God. For
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: so many people, I mean, especially in romance, it is
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: like a foundational text for yearning, right.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean I think it's one of those
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: things where, like, to be clear, not a romance novel. Yeah,
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: these are people who are deeply miserable by the end
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: of the novel. But I do think, like Austin's novels,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: it's left like a real legacy within romance that merits
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: further exploration, and even if the entire work itself is
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: not a romance work, I do think that there are
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: parts of it that are deeply, deeply romantic. So I
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: think it'd be really exciting to like explore that further.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: And to do that, We've got Buddy Corello coming on.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: She's really wonderful. She is a romance author, so she
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: is of course well versed in the arts of yearning,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: but she's also a Weuthering Heights enthusiast. Betty wrote two
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: romance novels already, Summertime Punchline and Thirty two Days in May,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: and she actually just released My Italian Vampire, which was
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: a total banger of a paranormal romance. And she's got
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: a book coming out this fall with Cosmo Reads called
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Back for Seconds. So on top of the fact that
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: she's like wonderful and charming and one of the funniest
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: people I've ever met, yeah, yeah, she's also kind of
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: a perfect guest for us to be talking about yearning
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: and Weathering Heights and romance with Betty. We're so happy
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: to have you here. Thank you for coming on.
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, thank you so much for having me. Guys,
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here. I'm so excited to
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: talk about my favorite classic novel.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: Obviously, many things to talk about with Weathering Heights, because
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: Emerald Fennel just released that, in my opinion, tragic adaptation
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: in February on Gallantine's Day in the Year of Our
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Lord twenty twenty six, which maybe you can tell how
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: I feel about it. I think Tyler and I are
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: someone aligned on it, But I think the impetus for
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: this conversation is actually DMS between me and Betty about
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: how there's been a lot of debate about Weathering Heights
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: as a romance and it's not a romance and novels
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: that like shape romance as a genre versus novels that
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: are romance genre fiction.
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: And we're always talking about.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Jane Austen, We're talking about Pride and Prejudice two thousand
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: and five, We're talking about the full Austin canon all
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: the time.
• 11:13
  Speaker 5: But Weathering Heights is also something that.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Romance has inherited from, and it's the darker, messier, more obsessive,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: demanding work between the two classics. What has romance inherited
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: from Weathering Heights? And also, I guess relatedly, do you
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: think of Weathering Heights as romantic?
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: When I was a teenager, I thought Weathering Heights was
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: a romance. To me, there was nothing more indicative of
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: like true, everlasting love than obsession and destruction. Because I
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: also think about pride and prejudice a lot, because one
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: thing Emerald Fennel said pretty directly about weatherin Heights, she
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: was like, I adapted this based on my memories of
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: reading it as a teenager, which crazy, such a crazy
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: thing to admit it.
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: I do think that.
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: Happens kind of frequently with the Pride and Prejudice too
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: when it comes to modern adaptations, because if we were
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: really to do a modern adaptation of pride and prejudice,
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: what is the actual comparison? Is a modern retelling actually
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: servicing the fundamental thing that's being said about class? Can
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: we even say it anymore? And then with Weathering Heights,
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: I'm like, okay, the incest though.
• 12:26
  Speaker 5: There has been a lot of cultural interest in that too.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about white lotus right.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah, that was throws throwns. Here's my issue. I'm
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: not a Wathering Heights apologist. I read it for the
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: first time, I think literally last year and I was like,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: this could have been an email.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: This goes on for so long. But I think what
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: you're saying.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Betty is like I think if I had read it
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: as a teenager, when I was like, the most loving
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: and dramatic thing you can do is die, obviously, like
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: it would have hit really different, you know, like, do
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: you really love someone if you're not dying in the
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: moors for them? No, I'm not sure. Yes, my live
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: journal would disagree, you know, the.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Thirteen year old me that was on Tumblr and read
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: this book when Heathcliffe says like you say I killed you,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: haunt me then and burst into tears, right, Like, that
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: version of me is very compelled by the idea that, like,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: you can have love for someone that is so consuming
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: that it turns love into a fungus that you can't escape,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: and like, does actually end up infecting and plaguing another
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: generation of people implicated by your love. Unfortunately, present and
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: past me thinks that's devastatingly romantic.
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: But that and the thesis of the romance novel, which
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: is like hinged on the Happily ever After, those are
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: two different things, right right, yes, yes, no, yes, slightly incompatible.
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: And I think Also, it's impossible to think about like
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: structural deterioration and like familial deterioration and love is rot
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: and not think about this book within the context of
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: like the racial and socio political elements of it. Really,
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: it's once you've like been liberal arts pilled, like you
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: start like thinking of it that way. Sixteen year old
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: me wasn't thinking about that. I was like thinking about Twilight,
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: like Twilight is really real, a very similar proposal, And
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: she reads wuthering heights in the book, which I don't know.
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: I don't want to give Stephanie Meyer too much credit,
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: but she was thinking with her full head on that one.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: I don't want to draw too many comparisons, but it
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: is a love that is a fungus and it Destroyszela.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: No, but I mean it's that premise, right, that the
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: most romantic thing you can do is die. Bella dies
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: for love, like yes. And the reason that that like
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: rot doesn't quite infect them the same way is because
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: they're immortal, and so there isn't a sense of like
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: having passed. I mean, they have their like Frank and
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: child or whatever. But like the idea that there is
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: like a toxic inherent goes away when you become immortal,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: and there is no inheritance to gave. It's just you,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: forever and ever and ever. But I think the other
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: piece of this is that, like, for as much as
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: that premise is somewhat incompatible with like the containment of
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: genre fiction, romance, romance novels draw on Wuthering Heights in
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: a big way.
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: And specifically, like one of the queens of.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: All of romance, like arguably Lisa Klapis her core stories
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: is what if Kathy and Heathcliffe could be together. In
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: order to.
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: Write that, though, you do have to deny some very
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: fundamental parts of the original text, and I guess that's
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: kind of the only way to adapt it. So as
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: much as I want to hate on Emerald, I'm like, well,
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: if you are going to adapt this for a modern artist,
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: do you have to take Oh my god, the fungus
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: that is, they're inbreeding. I can't believe I just said
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: that full sentence, But like, they're not leaving the same
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: ten square miles, like they are on that allotment together
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: and there's no other it's just them and the moors.
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: And so even if they weren't raised as they.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Were siblings, like it's all in the family. Yeah, you
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: also do talk about the elements of Weathering Heights that
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: I think, on top of the like seriousness and gravity
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: of colonial themes and the like gender themes and the
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: like racialized themes of this novel, it is also like
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: a juicy, wild, entertaining story for a classic.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: Things are happening, like they're not just walking around the room,
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: they're slapping each other around the room. There to a
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: point where it's almost it's camp. I'm like, is this camp?
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: Did Emily Bronte invent camp?
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Entirely possible?
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I do think as people are taking inspiration from Weathering
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Heights and circling back to what you were saying about
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: the idea that it can't really exist without the content.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: It didn't just fall out of the coconut tree, like
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: it can't exist without the context and everything that came before.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: And as.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: You're boiling it down and you're doing like a copy
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: of a copy of a copy of Wuthering Heights in
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: terms of influencing modern romance, like what are you really
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: left with and what are you really taking the inspiration from?
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: So if Jane Austen gives us romance and its like
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: most clean, durable adaptation gives us this like set up
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: for an enemy's to lovers, something a little cerebral. Why
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: does weathering Heights keep pulling audiences back anyway? What itch
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: does it scratch? That novel of manners marriage plot classic
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: cannot give us. And we've talked a little bit around this,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: but like, I'm curious, what is the appeal? Why can't
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: we let Kathy and Heathcliffe go?
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: If I read a guest, it's like the messy enemies
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: to lovers quote unquote vibe right, it's like, yeah, yeah,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: it's the fungal love.
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: The girls love mess They want fungus.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a girl wants a man to love her so
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: much that he is a fungus.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that he has a special tree he smashes his
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: head against.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Ladies, if you're a man, doesn't have a special tree
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: that he smashes his head up against because you don't
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: love him enough. Does he really love you if he
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: wanted to, he would, if he wanted to, he would
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: if he.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Wanted to cut a hole in the side of your
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: coffin and one in the side of his so that
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: you could hold hands in the ever after he would.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: That it is literally Heathcliff turned to Kathy one day
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: and was like, would you love me if I was
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: a worm?
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: And she was like, yes, yes, matter of fact, I'll
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: do you one better.
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: I do think when you think about Weathering Heights through
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: like psycho sexual and like modern kink language, it's like, yeah, Isabella,
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: it wants to do puppy play. Catherine is a dominatrix.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: She's doming everyone. Yes, literally everyone. This is why we need.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: A real freak at the helm of a Wuthering Heights adaptation.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I agree, agreed, real freaks only.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: That's our call to action. Yeah, that's it.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: What else is there to say?
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Really, Betty, thank you so much for coming on and
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: chatting all things freakery and Weathering Heights with us. This
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: was perfect. I had so much fun.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: I loved having that discussion so much, both because Betty
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: is so funny and also as somebody who came to
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Wuthering Heights like a year ago. It's nice to sort
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: of be able to place everything in the context of
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: all that came before. Something that I have been wanting
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: to get into is fixing the holes that I have
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: in romance history. If you will just to be able
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: to understand that context. Like, for example, my friend Jonathan
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: recently asked me what the citizen Kane of the romance
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: genre was, and I now him a consulting fee, So
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: let me know, and you want to collect on that.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: And I didn't know, but I knew that Songe would know,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: because Songe is the smartest person I know when it
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: comes to romance generous and romance history. I really love
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: when I read something and I think, oh, I have
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: seen this a version of this fifteen more times, like
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: a reinterpretation of this in romance novels that I've read
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: that I love. And so I think that's kind of
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: the value and for me, like honestly the excitement in
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: digging into this backlist stuff. And so we're going to
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: do a segment on this podcast where Sonja gives me
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: homework assignments and I go and read them and then
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: we will discuss their relevance in the cannon. Yeah, and so, Sonda,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: I want you to tee up what your very first
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: assignment to me.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Was happy to do it. My first reading assignment was
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: again The Magic by Lisa Kleapus, which on Goodreads has
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: forty eight thousand ratings. So this is like a god truly,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: like this is one of the most iconic historical I mean,
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Lisa Cleapis is one of the most iconic historical romance writers,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: one of the most iconic romance writers period. She hasn't
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: released a book super recently, but she's got one coming
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: out later this year. The thing is, even if you
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: haven't heard of Lisa Kleypas, even if you haven't read
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: her work, if you've read a romance novel, chances are
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: you've read an author who is deeply and profoundly influenced
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: by Clapis. And so for me, assigning again The Magic
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: was about establishing the kind of reference base that has
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: like a trickle down effect, like you will see Clapis
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: wherever you go now that you've read her. This is
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: also just one of her best It's again The Magic
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: is the first. It's technically a prequel novel to her
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: iconic Wallflower series, which follows four friends who are like
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: wallflowers at a ball, and each book follows a different
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: wallflower falling in love and their friendships together as they
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: fall in love. So again, The Magic is the prequel
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: novel for the Sisters of the hero of the second book.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Marcus Westcliffe is the hero of the second book, and
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: he's attached to Lillian Bowman, who's a character who's not
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: introduced in this novel, but his two sisters, Olivia and Aileen,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: are the fixtures of this one. And I also think
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: that this is kind of on top of sort of
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: teeing up this iconic series is the quintessential Claypist novel
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: because one of the things that I think makes Clapus
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: so special to me at least, is Claypus is one
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: of the authors who like made me a romance reader, right.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: One of her biggest core stories is the idea that,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: like what if Kathy and Heathcliffe stayed together, Like what
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: if they could be in love. It's not every book
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: that she writes, but it's at the heart of many
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: of the books that she writes. First of all, it
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: lines up really beautifully with the conversation we've just had
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: with Betty. But I also think that that's like formative, right,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Like it helps us understand the kinds of influences that
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: romance has, both looking back at classics and looking forward
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: at newer books in the genre that are drawing on
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: influences like Claypus to shake their stories. How did you
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: feel about it?
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: I loved it so much.
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: I'm so relieved.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I loved it so much. Actually, when I got to
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: the end, I slowed down reading. Yeah, this is my
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: thing about I hate reading on a kindle, but I
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: was reading it on a kindle because it tells you
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: how much is left and you start being like, no,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: this is too precious and it's slipping away. Yes, yeah,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I don't want this to end today. I think that
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: we would be dismissive and call it basically like Wuering
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: heides fanfick, because to me it is so clearly that like,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: what if Kathy and Heathcliffe could have just been like
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: normal people?
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and not insane? Way more sex than I was expecting.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, these books are sexy, Clappus writes, A sexy book?
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Can I be honest?
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Really was not ready. I think I always sort of
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: go into historicals like low key, expecting that it's not
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: going to be a ton of sex because of I
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: don't know the Bridgerton of it all.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: I don't know cool.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, here's the thing, right, Like I understand why
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: because I think so much of as oracle, romance is
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: constructed around restraint and like, yes, the idea that there
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: are so many more social mores and taboos that like
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: hold people apart. The reality though, in execution, when you're
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: in the hands of like a really skilled writer like clapis,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: it is that constraint that like ratchets the tension up
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: about four hundred percent, Like it gives you steaks on
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: like anything else, because all of a sudden, every touch
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: means about four hundred more things than like it would
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: in our contemporary society, where like holding hands is holding hands.
• 24:30
  Speaker 6: Like right, yeah, this is violation of taboo, class inequality
• 24:35
  Speaker 6: made manifest, like all this other stuff is happening that
• 24:38
  Speaker 6: like far from actually diluting the sexual tension, like ramps
• 24:42
  Speaker 6: it up in a way that gives it different stakes.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, It's one of the situations where the whole time
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: you're reading it, you're like, girl, just tell him, yeah, girl,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: just tell him yeah about the fire, yeah.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: And your legs. He's not going to care. Yeah, But
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: like also you don't want like I like that tension.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: I like like this.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: It feels very real.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: It's very like, yeah, I like that Her brother at
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: the end sort of clocks. It as like you're such
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: a beautiful person that you've probably never had to consider, Yeah,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: what it means to not be beautiful? Like, I love
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: that aspect of it. Every part of it was so
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: masterfully done. There wasn't any wasted space. There weren't any
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: moments that felt like superfluous. I loved the subplot with
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: the sister and the alcoholic American, like hello.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: So good, like that B plot Roman. That's also partially
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: why I wanted you to start with this one rather
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: than others in her backlist, because like the B plot
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: just as good. It's just interesting.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: It's just to the point that, like I a little
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: bit was like kind of resentful that it was a
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: B plot. I was like, wait, I want to spend
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: more time with her too, I need like two hundred
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: more pages.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. And Gideon, who is her like
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: alcoholic American love interest. We actually didn't do a synopsis
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: of this book. Premise is that like Aleen is Lady
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: of the Castle, her younger sister Olivia is like her
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: disgraced sister who like kind of got knocked up before
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: marriage and then her fiance died, So what would have
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: been otherwise respectable pregnancy then became a tragic miscarriage that
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: like alienated her from society. Aileen has had a childhood
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: love interest who is McKenna mc kenna, sort of Heathcliffe
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: stand in well Kenna McKenna, who is so angry?
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: Who's so angry?
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: And it's so hot?
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: And he comes all the way back from America with
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: a specific intent of having sex with her and then
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: like ruining her life? Yeah, and I will bring this
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: up in therapy and I was immediately like, that's so hot.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: When will a man be so destroyed by my love
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: that he tries to ruin my entire life?
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And the bonkers thing about Aileen is also that
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: she's like, okay, do it like ruin my life?
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: What do I have going on? I don't care?
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Right, I thought that she's older. I love that she's
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: like what she's like thirty?
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Like yether.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, contextually is key.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: But and that confession at the end where she tells
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: him about the burn and is like, I didn't think
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: that you would want me.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't think that you would still want me, and
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: he was like, oh bet and immediately carries her to bed.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: And he's like, my brain's leaking out of my ears.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Literally, it's so hot. Yeah, it's very Heathcliff. Like
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: he just follows her like a dog, and he's so
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: resentful of how much he loves her.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: Oh, he hates it so much because.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: He's the stable boy who was never supposed to like
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: fall in love with like Lady of the Castle and
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: then like was sent away by her because she was
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: protecting him. But like he feels such deep betrayal, Like
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: he comes back so angry and she is so guarded
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: for me. Like so much of romance is this like
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: theory of change of like how is it that these
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: people who are fixed in their ways become like shattered
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: by proximity to each other? Yeah, and you see it
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: in this like so clearly.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: It is a perfect romance novel.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: And they have sex standing up in the woods.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I the tree thing really really did me in. I
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: was like, hell, yeah, brother, literally.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: I love this.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: I need like a whole Gilded Age spin off of
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Aileen and McKenna in New York.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean, a sequel?
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: I mean so much.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Why are we adapting Weathering Heights again the four hundredth time?
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: When we could be doing again the magic.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think that's the thing, right, Like
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: this almost like teenage lovelorn interpretation of weathering Heights that
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: like Fennel sets up, that thing is done about eight
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: hundred times better in Clippus's works. It's already It's that
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: thing that is like intense and pressured and like hits
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: you to your bones and still has the like incredible
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: crescendo of like a happily ever after and the like
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: love confession where like everything is okay at the end.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: She's cooking with gas in this book, and oh absolutely
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: so much of her work and like I wish, I
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: wish it was on screen. I wish it was on screen.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I wish so much of her work was on screen.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Like just you wait the rest of the series. You're
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: in for something really good.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited. It's it truly.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: It's one of those things where it's like you finish
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: it and you're like, I need to read every other
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: thing this person has written in their entire career.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: I did that and it took me about two weeks
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: of being in kind of a fugue state. This was
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: like this was one of my first historical romance series
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: and it like literally altered my DNA, Like I could.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: Feel that happening reading this one. I could feel it.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I'm so thrilled that you liked it.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: As far as the first homework assignment. A plus to
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: you for this election.
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: And a plus to you and that's the show.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: Call us and leave us a voicemail with your thoughts
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: at eight three three eight three to one love that's
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: eight three three eight three one five six eight three.
• 30:05
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• 30:07
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• 30:10
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• 30:13
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• 30:17
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• 30:22
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  Speaker 1: The Radio eight three one podcast is a production of
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, hosted by Sanjanabaskar and Tyler McCall. The show
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: is produced by Liz Smith and for iHeart. Our supervising
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: producer is Emily Meronoff special thanks to the whole iHeart
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: team and especially Ali Perry and Alison Kanter Graper. Our
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: executive producers are Claire Maser and Erica Serulo. Our music
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: is Domino by James Ryan Carr and Love Is What
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: You Do by Alibi.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: We'll be sharing love here again next week