Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Chicago

Transcript

Chicago · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: When Chicago released their debut album in nineteen sixty nine, they,
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: along with bands like Blood, Sweat and Tears, Sligne, The
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Family Stone, and also James Brown and the JB's, We
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: defined what a band could be, blending brass, jaz sophistication,
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: and rock power into something completely unique. Over the next
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: half century, the band became one of the most commercially
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: successful acts in American music history, with a string of
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: hits that remained staples of classic rock radio even today.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: By nineteen seventy five, when Chicago nine Chicago's Greatest Hits, arrived,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: the band had already amassed an extraordinary catalog of songs
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: that captured both the experimental spirit of the late sixties
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: with the pop sensibility of the seventies. That compilation became
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: one of the best selling albums of the decade. Now
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Chicago is celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of that landmark release
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: with an expanded edition that offers fans a deeper look
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: at this pivotal moment in the band's history. On today's episode,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Bruce Headlam talks to Lee Locknane and Jimmy Panco of
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Chicago about recording their early albums. They also discussed what
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: inspired them to incorporate a horn section into a rock band,
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: and they explained why after decades of been on the
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: road since the late seventies, they don't even bother to
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: unpack those suitcases anymore. This is broken record, real musicians,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: real conversations. Here's Bruce Headlam with Lee Locknane and Jimmy
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Panco of Chicago.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: We have Lee Locknane and Jimmy Panco. Hello, two of
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: the original members of the Great band Chicago to composers, arrangers,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: but I think most importantly two members of the brass section,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: because that is what really drove so much of that
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: horns with the horns.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: Actually hid one of the greatest guitar players away from
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: being top.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Ten recognized as a great guitar player.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: I think people recognize, well, they recognize him, but it
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: was really he came in second to the brass when
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: we were really up there popularity wise.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: And I do want to mention the third member of
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: the National Brass Yes, Walter oh Walt Perizader. I feel
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: he's here in spirit, yes, so we talk about all.
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: You know, he was a big part of this. He
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: actually came up with the idea you know that wound
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: up becoming Chicago. We were students at Deepaul University and
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: Walt and Danny Sarafin and Terry Cath were members of
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: a club act that we're working at Chicago, which we're
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: kind of.
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: On the way out.
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: And Walt knew Lee and I at Deepaul University and
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: he approached us with this, Hey, you guys, what do
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: you think about this idea? Because we used to go
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: to the Pussycat and sit in with them. They were
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: called the Missing Links, and Lee and I would go
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: show up.
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: I played every now and then. Yeah, what kinds where
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: they play Top forty? Yeah?
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, everybody that played We played Top forty when we
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: were We were a club act before we left to
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: go to California to make records. But he approached us
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: with this idea, what do you guys think about a
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: rock and roll group with a horn section that's like
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: a main character?
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: You know?
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: How can we We were thinking of going to Vegas
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: and playing those like side clubs rather than the big rooms.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: And somebody told me that he got that idea from
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: a Beatles song, Got to get You into My life?
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Is that true?
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: Well? I don't know I don't know.
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: We did a cover of Got to Get You Into
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: My Life and the clubs as well as Magical Mystery
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: Tour Little Help from My Friends, and I kind.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: Of recorded it me because I played bass on Little
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: Help From As You did boo boom.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was it true. He said from the beginning,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: it'll be a democracy.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Yes, well, we all thought the same thing. We just
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: shook hands and let's do this.
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: We met wals apartment and agreed to devote all our
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: energy and time to this idea.
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: And you know we should.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And he said you can only leave two ways,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: you ask out or you die.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, A little final for me.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well I'll want a decision by the end
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: of the podcast for both of you. Guys.
• 4:49
  Speaker 5: What are you going to do next?
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah? So you are in New York. Your Chicago band
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: you you Mad you Bones in LA. But New York
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: is where you recorded I think your first two albums. Yeah,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: you have fond memories of New York. I was a
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: fifty second What kind of studio is that?
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: It was a multi story office building and they had
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: several studios on several floors and uh we.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: Food aid shift and Simon and Garfunkel had it at
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: the day.
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we were We were the new guys, so they
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: gave us the graveyard shift. Simon and garfunk recorded all
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: day and then we started recording at midnight and wound
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: up going back to the hotel.
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: The only people on the street were the garbage drugs.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: Go back to the hotel with a triple decker sandwich
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: and you never good to go.
• 5:40
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, the stage deli.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And did you meet with Simon and Garfunkel
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: while you were there? Did you?
• 5:45
  Speaker 5: Actually? I never saw. I'm met Art in the elevator.
• 5:49
  Speaker 5: Really yeah. I was coming to work and he was leaving. Yeah.
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we just had kind of two ships in the night,
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: you know, but we did.
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: You know, Jimmy.
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: Gercio was producing us, and he got close to Roy
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: Hallie who was producing Simon and Garfriend and they traded
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: notes and Roy actually came down and assisted in some
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: of the recording techniques.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: No, no kidding.
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he added some of his expertise, and he also
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: knew the board at CBS very well.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: Well, he knew the board, but he wasn't ready for
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: rookies to come in. He left the project pretty quickly
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: because we were learning how to record. We knew how
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: to play these songs backwards and forwards because we'd been
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: working with them in the various clubs that we played,
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: but we had to learn how to record, how far
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: to stand away from them, you know, being worried about
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, I can't make a mistake because this microphone,
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: the thing is in my way here.
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was quite intimidating, you know. And I say this,
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: you know, in performance, knowing that this was going on
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: tape forever.
• 7:02
  Speaker 5: We better do this right.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: But you had producers to set up the room. Oh sure,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: but still it took a lot of figuring out.
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: It's just a matter of the actual playing the instrument
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: to that thing and then going into the control room
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: and listening to it backing on. Oh so I have
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: to step back a little bit on this to do
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: a better blend, a natural blend. I mean, they can
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: do it electronically and with the with the everything inside
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: the control room, but it's better if we control ourselves.
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: We had, Yeah, we kind of had to mix ourselves
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: in the room, you know, to get the right blend
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: in the section, especially when you do an overdub.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Now, when you recorded back then would you do the
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: the rhythm tracks first? Would you do the piano and
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: then add the horns?
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: Well, it was a progressive process. We actually started recording
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: with the whole band in the room, you know, you know,
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: we live track because we would realize that we needed
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: to isolate things because if somebody were to stay it
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: was audible on every instrument.
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, we were doing We.
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: Were doing isolation already, we had stuff in between us,
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: so it would lessen that problem. But we were able
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: to record with the brass because we were going to
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: play the same notes on the song, so when we
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: did it on our own, the bleed through wasn't going
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: to matter.
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: But you know, interestingly enough, you know, the technology wasn't
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: available in those days. We recorded on eight tracks, and
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: they only had so much they could do with so
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: little room, so we utilized various rooms. We actually recorded
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: does anybody really time it as an introduction in the church.
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: They used a cathedral downtown, I don't know which one
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: with a high ceiling and it created a natural room
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: echo that we couldn't get on the board because we
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: didn't have the technology, So we used the church to
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: That's how you get it. That's why those cuts on
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: Chicago Transit Authority had that big room sound because of
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: the the nature of the room that we recorded in.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: How many of those tracks did you record at the church?
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: I know we did those two.
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: We might have done questions there too, I think we did.
• 9:27
  Speaker 5: We did.
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: But Simon and garfunk Cal, you know, got busy and
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: busy and busier, and we went to a smaller room
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: on the second floor with Studio B and we had to,
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: you know, kind of reapproach everything all over again. It
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: was a different parameter in terms of acoustics. I remember
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: on Make Me Smile, Gercio had me go in the bathroom.
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: They ran a mike cable into the bathroom and I
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: was whacking the toilet seat with a newspaper to fatten
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: the snare.
• 10:04
  Speaker 5: I mean, we you know, we used tricks like what
• 10:07
  Speaker 5: you had.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: You can get away a lot of stuff, and it's
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: just you know, creative.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: We should do business first before we talk.
• 10:16
  Speaker 5: The business is.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: The business is you put out one of the best
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: selling greatest hits collections of all time, which was Chicago nine.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: All right, and if you like the songs on it
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: are just all these incredible classics. You're re releasing a
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: new version.
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's the fiftieth anniversary.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: Fiftieth anniversary.
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a re release of the greatest Hits with
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: twenty one tracks.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: The original was eleven, I think.
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, And we threw a bunch more songs on
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: the re release, including the first eight albums and then
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: even some cuts from Chicago ten which follows.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you listen to the remixes? Do you like
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: what you hear?
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: Sure? You know.
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: The thing is that we've heard them so many times,
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: and when we play them live now, when we go back,
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: I can listen to at least when I go back
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: and listen to the original recordings, I realize how much
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: we have developed the songs even further through the years.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: It's amazing to me that it's not quite exactly the
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: same as what it was when we recorded. We're doing
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: a little some different harmonies, we're doing a little different breaks,
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: It's just is that interesting? It was organic?
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I also want to mention this is your fifty
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: eighth consecutive year of touring, Yes, which is staggered. You've
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: toured every year, every year, every year, even through COVID, well,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: even through.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: COVID well we worked the first two months of COVID
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: up until we were working in Las Vegas.
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: Vegas. We were the last stand on the strip.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Oh really, Yeah, it's great.
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: Rod start was at the Coliseum and we were at
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: the Venetian and it was Saturday night, March.
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: Seventeen, I think it was the sixteenth.
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I got in the car to fly home
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: the next Sunday morning. The driver turn around, looked at
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: me and say, good thing, you're leaving. Vegas is going
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: down to five percent occupancy tomorrow. It's going to be
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: a ghost town.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: So wow, we got the heck out of town.
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: But it was pretty wild.
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: It was very weird, and we actually thought we were
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: going to go back to work real quick, that it
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: was going to be everybody two or three weeks and
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: may we're back.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Do you remember was there something odd about that last
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: show was where people already talking and thinking about COVID.
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: For us, it was business as usual, the same thing
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: we just do. That was yeah, and then next thing
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: you know, we were off the road. Everybody was off
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: the road. Yeah, it was a complete shutdown, but we
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: were one of the first people to go back with
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: June of twenty.
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: June of twenty one, we were off for a whole
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: fifteen months.
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, right, right, okay.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: So we worked each year. We worked the beginning of
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: the year in twenty twenty, and then the world shut down,
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: and then we came back as soon as we possibly could.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: We kept trying to go back on the road, but
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: nobody was over up their buildings.
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I'm being home that long was
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: strange because we were never home that long.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Other than COVID. What is the longest time you took
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: away from the road as manned.
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: Probably six months?
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Really really, it just never gets tired.
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: I stopped unpecking. Yeah, I'm always backed. Yeah too.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: I take the dirty clothes out, clean them, put them
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: back in the bag, exactly, wait to leave from the environment.
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: You know, we're always ready to go to the next fire.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: Slide down the pole, when the when the Chicago signal
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: goes off in the sky.
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: Exactly, and they're still coming. You know, they were sold
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: out every night. It's it's a it's a phenomenon we
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: never ever expect, did you know? You see four generations
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: in the audience and they're all they're all grooving on
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: their own level.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. Okay, I'm gonna do something that I never do,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: because you were just mentioning that first.
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: Album and I'm I'm.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Not gonna I've never done that, but no, I'm just
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: gonna play. I wanted to play till to that last
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: little becomes a horn fill throughout the whole song, just
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: because that to me, if if you could just play
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: that five seconds to someone, they would just go, that's
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: that is to me, that's Chicagoe.
• 14:53
  Speaker 5: I can name that too.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: You can name that tone, name that band. So, now,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: this was not a song you guys wrote.
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: Robert wrote it, Robert Liam wrote that.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, and so because you had multiple composers, what was
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the what was the process for introducing songs to the band?
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Did you have something formal? Do you all sit down?
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: We just brought songs in.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: You know, you do a demo and you know you
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: sing a rough guide lead into the tape machine with
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: the piano part. As you're saying it, that was a demo.
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: Now it's a record. You know, people were making records
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: for demos, and I remember bringing you know, I wrote
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: just you and me and I brought it in. We
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: were at Caribou Ranch and the guys were all there,
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: and I brought the song in and you know, again
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: it was the cassette with You and My Love and
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: my Life with acoustic piano, and you know, we put
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: it in the machine in the booth and everybody listened
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: to it. I said, is this any good? And Robert
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: looked at me. He said, Jimmy, that's a hit song.
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: I went, really yeah, And so you know, I didn't know.
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: It was a personal experience at the piano, just like
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: when Lee writes his song.
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: We and we just we would bring what we had
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: into the room.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: And everybody kind of voted on it, you know, and
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: the song really didn't come alive until everybody in the
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: band added their special magic to it individually.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Well, this is what I'm interested in this song in
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: particular because to me, it's it's such a great encapsulation
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: of your music. Then you god, chord changes, key changes,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: tempo changes, I mean, everything is constantly moving. For example,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: the brass stuff, those brass, the stabs off the start,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: that great rift towards the end. Like was that part
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: of what Robert brought in or was that something you
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: guys added? How did that work?
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: Robert actually arranged his own horns back. Is that right?
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: Anybody really? Time it is?
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: Beginnings, students, those are no. I did questions, but he did.
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: He did beginnings. He did does anybody real any time?
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: It is?
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: He did dialogue and quite a few others, and I
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: kept in current, Man, Robert, you arrange some great stuff. Man,
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: you should keep going with this. But he realized how
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: difficult it was.
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: He had Jimmy just killing me.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So those were his those were his ideas.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: Beginning.
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: There were there were occasions that I had to come
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: in and revoice things because he wasn't particularly adept at
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: voicing because it wasn't his thing. So he'd write the charts,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: which are his arrangements, and I just revoice him to, uh,
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: capture the essence of the section.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: So tell me what that means revoicing it in terms
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: of the well.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: You know, typically, you know, I kind of inherited the
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: chair for or creating this approach to the horns. And
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: uh maybe because you know, I played trombone. What I
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: was hearing was a trombone lead. Yeah, so you know
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: the trombone because it's a baritone instrument, and the trumpet
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: and the sacks are above it.
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: If I voiced it.
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: By nature of the instrument, the disparity and the voices
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: would not be cool. It wouldn't be the equanimity of
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: the voicing would not happen, you know. So I had
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: to I.
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: Had to play up an active basically. Yeah.
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: So you know, Yeah, is basically in the upper register
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: for a lot of the charts, and the trumpet is
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: in the middle, and then the sacks is right there
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: in the middle between the trumpet and the trombone, so
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: it tightens the voicing.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Was the was the trumpet amos always on top?
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: Well, there's there are times of times the trumpet, Yeah,
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: it leaves upstairs too.
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it isn't always like that.
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: But in terms of just the typical accompaniment with the vocals, right, yeah,
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: the section is more tight. The voicing is tight, so
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: it has more of a punch, you know. And then
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: we overdob and we put the trumpet upstairs on the
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: on the double, and we put the bone, I do
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: the pedals on the bone, and we might.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Play a wide triad, but then let the rhythm section
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: play the color notes, the sevens extensions.
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: That's the conundrum when we're playing live, you have to
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: pick there's only three of us, Okay, in live performance.
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: In the studio we had the luxury of overdobing of
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: multi so we could we could add all those extensions
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: in the second take or even the third take. Sometimes
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: we tripled if we wanted really a big sound. But
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: live there's only three of us, So it's very important
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: to be economically precise. You have to pick just the
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: right three voices to express the nature of the chord.
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: If it's a seven chord or a nine chord, you're
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: not going to just play the root and the third
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: and the fifth. You need to play those extensions to
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: paint the right colors of that extended chord.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: And you'd hope that the base or somebody else was filled.
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, yeah, you'll leave yeah, you leave the guts
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: to the rhythm section.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: But you're saying sometimes you guys would play chord tones
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: and leave the color notes to sure the rest of
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: the band. To me, that famous riff phil at the
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: end of what I just played, it's got the it's
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: the Is that the trumpet on top doing hitting the
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: single note? Yes, and then there's the trombone in the sacks.
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: Are oh bo.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, are they playing the same note orre they playing
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: different notes?
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: Different notes? Different notes?
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, were they in maybe thirds or something?
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: They're playing thirds. I'm playing at the top note b
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: b b B.
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: Chord.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, But this is the way Robert wanted it.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I got a kick out of his A
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: lot of his voicing.
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: I left alone because it was really great.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just simple to the point.
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: I mean, I have to be at beginnings. Be let
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: it live, let it.
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: I mean the alto trumpet line in the beginning, it's
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: still I get chills when I hear it.
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: I love it. I mean, Robert wrote some great stuff.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: And then for you guys for playing, I mean, I
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: know different groups. You know, string quartets. People are always
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: looking at each other. There's a lot of body language
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: to signal when you're coming in. How did you guys
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: learn to play so precisely together?
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: We guessed, and we guessed write a lot.
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: You know what, man, I gotta tell you a lot
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: of times Jimmy would say, Okay, this next time, we're
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: gonna go boah.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: We're gonna like we called it the grease, right, We're
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: gonna put the grease on the second note, and I
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: would go, he's not gonna put the grease on the
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: second note, He's gonna do it on a third note.
• 22:41
  Speaker 5: So I'd do it on the third and I would
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: make it too well, and he was I knew he
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: wasn't gonna do it.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: How do you know he wasn't going to do it?
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: I didn't for sure, but I just guessed right.
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: But you know the old adage, you know, the horn
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: section is like one set of lungs. You know, we
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: feel each other by its asmosis or something. And you
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: know when I'll never forget it. When we assembled for
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: the first time, and we'll to parents basement in Maywell, Illinois,
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: and we were playing James Brown Stuff.
• 23:15
  Speaker 5: I heard it. Papa's got a brand new band. Papa's
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: got I heard it immediately. I said, this is magic.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: You just knew this is you. Three guys were locked in.
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: I'm yeah, I was, I mean blown away. It was magic.
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: I said, this is unbelievable.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: We'll be back with more from Lee, Lock Nane and
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Panco after the break.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: I want to take you back just a little bit
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: further before you met what and I'll start with you Lee.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: What were how did music come into your life? What
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: was We were playing with different bands, but but even
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: before that year a band.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Called Ross and Majestics and Andow Band, and we played
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: the Irish clubs in Chicago. We played like R and B,
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: well not R and B, country and western songs, Irish
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: dances and all kinds of stuff, you know.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: And was your family musical? Is that how you?
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: My father was a trumpet player.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: Oh was that right? Okay?
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was. He was a band leader and he
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: never actually left the States. He was a chief warrant
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: officer in the Army Air Force when it was combined
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: at the time, and he'd have all these players come through.
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: And then go to the front vides. Right.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Did he play with a lot of military.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: I think he had stopped playing by that time. He
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: was just the band leader and these cats would come
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: through and then go. He would let him go a
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: well on the weekend.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: So you sorry, no, absolutely, of course, I'm.
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: The cry baby of the band, by the way. Okay,
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: sentimental irishman. That's well.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: If you can't be sentimental with your father, I don't
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: see what you can't, Candy.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, he was good to them and they then they'd
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: go over and fight the war and hopefully come back.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: But they were some of the greatest players out of
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: the big bands, you know, Tommy Dorsey and Jimmy Dorsey
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: and Glenn Miller, all those bands. When they got drafted,
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: they'd come through his band.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Is that right? Did he have stories about them?
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: He didn't like to tell the stories. He wanted to
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: get away from it when he came home.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay, And did you play in school? Did you
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: do play school school?
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: And I started in grade school? Yeah, eleven years old.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Wow, And that was back when in grade school they
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: walked you into a big room full of brass and
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: said pick an instrument. Yep, there was a lot of
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: that in schools.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: Well, he had played the trumpet, so that was the
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: first choice.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: And they just checked my teeth to make sure I
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: wasn't going to harm myself. You know, my lips were
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: gonna be bloody mess by the time I got done.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: And it seemed to work out, so I never stopped since.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: And then you went to college for music, Yes.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: The Paul University and which where we met.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: And were your parents happy about that?
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: They weren't too happy when I decided to do this
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: for a living. They were trying to talk me out
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: of doing it, and because you know how many people
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: make it, I was one of the lucky ones. We
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: were a couple of the lucky ones.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Did when did they finally accept that you'd made it?
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: I'm not exactly sure, but when they started coming to
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: shows and.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Going that's pretty good any day now.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: I mean like when you mentioned does anybody know what
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: time it is? That was sort of a crossover from
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: the big bands to modern rock and roll?
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: And then what were your Were you influenced by big
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: bands growing up?
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because my dad had all those records. I used
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: to to play along with them.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: You guys aren't unique. Their their blood, sweat and tears.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Other bands would have bigger horn. James Brown I think
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: had a trombone, but not a lot of bands had
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: your sound. Slim the Family, stonehead a trumpet.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: Well, the brass was always uh a background instrument and
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: all the other bands. We were a lead voice. We
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: became a lead band.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: Our approach is melodic, whereas a typical horn section is
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: harmonic and frosting on the cake. Because we are a
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: lead voice, we are a melodic horn section that interplays
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: in and around what the lead vocal is doing, so
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: it becomes intrinsic in the song. If you take the
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: brass out, there's empty spaces.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Were there models for that that you listened to?
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: No, I just I arranged what I heard. I wanted.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: I wanted the section to be a lead voice, and
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: that wasn't just.
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: Not shots. You know, do you Emma seeless, right?
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: And that's kind of the approach we do, because if
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: you take it away, you know there's something missing. Maybe
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: subconsciously it was job security, but you know, you know,
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: we just felt it out.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: Interesting that you say job security, because there are people
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: now who, for whatever reasons, they have decided that they
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: are not going to listen to what is popular, and
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: then twenty years later they're grown up and they decide
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: to listen to Chicago Transit Authority for the first time
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: and then give a reaction reaction videos, and they inevitably
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: ask if the horn players are part of the band,
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: you know, thinking that it's too big.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Or they are they even real horns?
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean they had to have been real horns
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: because there was no electronic instruments to be able to
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: play them back then, you.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: Know, and again there was no competit narrative. We invented this,
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: you know, this approach became our signature.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: It does remind me of times a little bit of
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: he didn't have a vocalist, but like the Mingas band sometimes,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: were you guys influenced at all by Oh?
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: Absolutely?
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: I was a jazz guy, you know, and I brought
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: that to the table, and Lee was in his his bands.
• 29:32
  Speaker 5: I had my own quintet.
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: It was modeled after the Crusaders, if you will, canniball. Atterly,
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: we were doing jazz covers, you know, milestones, give Samba
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: about better Me and uh, our repertoire kind of evolved
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: into jazz rock funk. I started, uh, you know, experimenting
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: with more contemporary motifs. So when I when I became
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: part of the our thing, I started there and then
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: now a way, Uh, I have a vocal group to
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: work with, I have a rhythm section that is rock
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: and roll to work with.
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: I mean Terry kaz blew me away.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, he was brilliant and Terry couldn't
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: read music, so he helped me help him and vice versa.
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: I sat with him for hours because Introduction, which is
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: the first cut on Chicago. Transmittory is an incredibly intricate piece.
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: I mean there's every time signature and key change, and
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: I mean Terry was going for the throat, but he
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: didn't know how to put it on paper. He didn't
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: you know, he heard it, but he didn't write. He
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: couldn't write it, he couldn't read it. Yeah, so I
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: had to sit with him and Okay, this is a
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: B minor, this is an F sharp major, this is
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: a flat and fifth.
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: You know, I had to create a chord chart.
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: Only then could I arrange the song for the because
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: I needed a roadmap. And Terry, in sitting with me,
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: learned eventually how to read charts. And I learned how
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: to embrace rock and roll because I had been a
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: jazz guy. So working with Terry opened my brain up
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: to you know, guitar man, you know rock and roll.
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: This is awesome. I can put horns with this, this
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: is cool.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: So do you remember meeting Terry for the first time?
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was he Walt asked him to come over
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: to school to Paul to talk about their gig or
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: some shit. I don't I don't remember, but yeah, he
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: and Danny Canea de Paul and I met Terry.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: To Paul, what was your first impression?
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: He was wild. He was wild.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: You know. He had this kind of kangaroo jacket and
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: long blonde hair, and he was a big guy, big
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: sturdy Norwegian, and he was gruff, you know. And there
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: is something, you know, very cave man Terry, and you know,
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: I was immediately taken aback by it. You know, it
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: was like, oh, this guy is very interesting. Yeah. And
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: I heard him play.
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: It was like, holy shit, he was playing bass. Well,
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: he was playing bass.
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: I think it was before we were in Walt's basement
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: that I heard him playing guitar. Somewhere. I don't know,
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: maybe he was just horsing around. It might have been
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: the apartment he used to sit between custom speakers, you know,
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: those were his headphones.
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: It was and man.
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: But then when we first got together Walt's parents, I
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: really heard Terry.
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: My jaw dropped.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: I mean, this guy was like, yeah, God, feel his
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: feel I mean he felt it in every inch of
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: his body.
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: And you know, you couldn't help but be.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: But he's also a great rhythm player too.
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: Great rhythm player and single lead vocals sing the book. Yeah,
• 33:30
  Speaker 5: he did it all.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: He did it all. I've never seen or heard anybody
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: who can do that.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: And then what was your impression of Robert when you
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: met him? Do you remember meeting him for the first time.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: I think Walt actually met Robert first. He went he
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: was he went to a club where was it Bobby Charles?
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: Bobby Charles and the Wanderers. The Wanderers.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: It was at sub dive on the South Side, and
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: Robert was playing acoustic piano and Walt. Walt asked him
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: if you knew if he played B three Oregon because
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: we didn't have a bass player, and Walt was interested pedals.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: To save money, man, maybe we could find an organ
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: player that could play the bass pedals on the organ
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: and we wouldn't have to pay a bass player.
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: And Roberts said, oh yeah, man, I play organ. Never
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: done in his life.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: He immediately went out and bought I used them three
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: organ and started woodshedding at home, so when when we
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: got together, he could at least I.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Think we did that for about six months or so
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: before we.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Before we met Peter, and then you hired Peter. Do
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: you remember meeting Was he like a highre like you
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: went looking for a bass player?
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: He was leaving. He was in the process of leaving.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: The exceptions that were that were like the drinking and
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: Cuddy was sort of They were a Top forty band.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: They were everybody played forty five minutes, fifteen off. They
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: would take their fifteen minutes off and go backstage and
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: learn another song, another song, and then come out and
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: try it on the next set. Hell did they get
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: But they would sound exactly like the record.
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah. And they had.
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: Two amazing vocalists, Jimmy Vincent and Peter and they were
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: really they were like the thing, you know. They appeared
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: on local TV and they were probably one of the
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: most popular club acts in the Midwest at that time.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: We were at that time, we were beginning to get
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: fired from these clubs because we started discovering our own voice,
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: particularly particularly Robert Lamb, who started bringing original material into
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: the band, and we'd start trying those songs out at clubs,
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: and no sooner we do that, the club owners would
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: would come to us and say, hey, you play that stuff,
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: You're out of here. I want Top forty. That's what
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: my customers want to come to hear. And so we
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: either had to dick to the Top forty or get
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: fired and we started fired.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: This sort of set a pattern for the rest of
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: your career.
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: Not only that, we set a pattern for the type
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: of stuff that we were doing, and the and the
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: way we were feeling about life, and some of the
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: illegal things that we were doing on our fifteen minute breaks.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: As opposed to having a drink with the boys, we
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: were going out and yeeling smoking a joint instead.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: You weren't learning a song, so we were, but we.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: Were taking that drinking audience we weren't doing in a
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: new song, and we would take that drinking new audience
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: away to come and listen to us. And that's what
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: became interesting for Setara to come and hear us.
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: Well here's the deal man. Yeah, there were, you know,
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: no scenery.
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: We started getting fired from these typical nightclubs. A club
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: opened on Rush Street called Barnaby's that actually encouraged new stuff.
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: You know. They it was wow, Okay, this is what
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: we've been looking for.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: And we got a gig at Barnaby's and we could
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: do they they loved it. We could do our thing.
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: We were doing expanded arrangements of hit songs. There was
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: a group called Vanilla Fudge. They inspired that as well.
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: They do you know, extended versions with alternate chord changes,
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: and you know, so we started doing that and then
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: and then that evolved into completely original material, which we
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: were able to do at Barnaby's. One engagement at Barnabys,
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: we were an opening act for The Exceptions. Peter se
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: Tera and the Exceptions were the headliner. And he heard
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: us doing these beetle covers. He was a huge Beatles fan.
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: He heard us doing Magical Mystery tour and got to
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: get you in my life and it blew him away.
• 38:06
  Speaker 5: Next thing, you know, he was in the band.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: And then how soon after that did you leave for
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Los Angeles?
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: All of it started in February of sixty eight and
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: in June sixty seven, I'm sorry, And in June of
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: sixty eight we headed to California, So a year and
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: a half.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: And you also did you tour with Janis Choplin? Why
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: have that rank?
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, we met her at the Fillmore West and
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: along we also we opened for Jimmy Hendrix. We were
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: at the Whiskey a Go Go It' Sunset Strip. We
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: were opening for Albert King and we were in the
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: dressing room waiting to go back on and there was
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: a knock on the door and we opened the door
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: and Hendrix is standing there and we're going, whoa is.
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: That Jimmy Hendricks?
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: You know, and you knew his stuff?
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, oh he was.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: I was playing like Jimmy Hendrix before we heard Jimmy Hendrix.
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, we were. In fact, we were doing his cover.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: We were in Fox the Lady in Purple Heads, in
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: our in our set, and Hendricks heard him. And before
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: we went back, I say, he came to the dressing
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: room he said, you guys have a guitar player that's
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: better than me and a horn section that sounds like
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: one set of lungs.
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: Do you guys want to go on the road? Fuck? Yeah.
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: And next thing you know, we opened for his summer tour.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: We were the opening acting for him.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: It was at the end of his career and the
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: end of Genesis, but it was our foot in the
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: door to the business. We never took our foot out
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: of the door.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: What was he like to tour with?
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: He was very introspective, very shy, quiet, And it was
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: funny because you know, we traveled together. Terry was nervous
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: around him, and he was nervous around Terry. You know,
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: he didn't know how to approach each other. Eventually they
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: got comfortable and they started trading ideas.
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: And you know, Terry would love to have played with him.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: He would have joined Jimmy. Hendry expand in a flash
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: and left us.
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: See you guys, well we were there was actually some
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: chatter amongst us about maybe doing a project together with
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: him with Jimmy, and of course he left us too early,
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: and then Terry left us too early.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: He also and maybe it was Walt who told the
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: story that he was telling you how he felt tremendous
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: pressure to have another hit and that he was finding Hendrick. Yeah,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: he was finding it very hard to probably.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: I mean that's that sort of goes along with the
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: business itself. You know, it's always what have you done lately?
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you just don't think that would apply to Jimmy Hendrix.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: It applies to everyone who's ever picked up an instrument.
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: I forget which artist it was. I think Joni Mitchell,
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: You're only as good as your last hit. How quickly
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: did they forget? Almost infinitely. That's another reason that this
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: Journey of ours is such a phenomenon, because these songs
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: broke that mold. These songs have become timeless, these songs
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: we are along for the ride. We're just blessed with
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: this ride that this music has given us.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's the songs those yeah, Oh.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: My gosh, yes, I mean these songs and we hear
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: it every night. These songs have become fabrics of lives, soundtracks.
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: These people are in there, they're singing louder in the band.
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: It's like it's a communion. Little did we know. I mean,
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: we are so blessed to have this phenomenon occur that
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: never would have occurred to us.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: But now the music business as opposed to the fans.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: You know, you found out at some point you didn't
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: have publishing. Wasn't that right, You didn't have publishing rights.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: Oh no, Gercil took the publisher rights. So I mean,
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: I prefer not to talk about him anymore. Yeah, he
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: enough already, so he discovered us, thank you.
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: But then, but then Columbia dropped you after you made
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: them just a gigantic stack of money.
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: Well, we made him a stack of money. But at
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: the time they dropped us, we were managed by a
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: guy that made a deal that they couldn't refuse.
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: And Walter yet Nikoff.
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: Agreed to the deal, and they realized after they went
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: back to New York that they had just screwed themselves
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: because they offered us way more than they thought we
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: were worth.
• 42:51
  Speaker 5: They were never going to come up and they were
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: never going to recover.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: So they, you know, they let us go, and they
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: released everything they had over and over, repackage, repackaged.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: And started saying that we were done. Yeah, you know,
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: we weren't done, but you know, so Irving Azoff picked
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: us up and put us on Full Moon Records, and
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: not a bad guy to pick you up. Another historical thing,
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: just going.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Back to that first album, how how long after you'd
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: been in LA did you record your Chicrgo Transit Authority?
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: Six months we got to LA and June sixty eight.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: We were in New York in January sixty nine beginning
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: the recording of Chicago Transit Authority.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: And now that was your first record deal. Columbia was a
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: little nervous, but you insisted on a double album. I'm
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: fascinated by that.
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: Well, we we as a band realized that these cuts
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: were longer cuts if we had done and Gercio completely
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: agreed and supported our vision here. We couldn't have captured
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: full picture this music with one disc, and he tried
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: to convince Clive Davis of that, and Class said, you
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: know budget before you know, our budget doesn't allow that
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: for a new artist. Of course, it was the right decision, Yeah,
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: and every The next two albums were also double albums
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: because Columbia realized that it was necessary.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: One last break and were back with Lee, Lock Nane
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: and Jimmy Panko. My introduction to you was from my
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: brother David, who was a trumpet player, and he brought
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: home the Carnegie Hall record.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Now, I know you don't like the sound the fourth album.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: That was the fourth album.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: That was the best they could do at the time,
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: And I didn't realize that until fifty years later when
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: I did it.
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: When I Lee did a remaster that is brilliant. Really Yeah,
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: He and an engineer took it into his studio and
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: gave it the digital.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: Ten months later. But we had to take away all
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: of the noise and electronics and everything just to get
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: down to the instruments. And then we edited that to
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: get as much of the sound of Carnegie Hall out
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: of it, so we would delete everything up to the
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: whatever horn or voice it was, and then fade into
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: that note, let the note play finish, and then fade
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: out of it. And we did that for each instrument,
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: every drum, every well. Actually the drums were easier because
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: you can put gates on those, but also to build
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: up the sound of the drums, Tim Jessup, the engineer,
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: put together a drum sound, probably like ten tracks of drums,
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: but anyway, yeah, he built he built a drum sound.
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: So by the time we finished, we were able to
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: move the music forward as though you were sitting.
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: In the audience.
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: And for me it being the arranger, it was a
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: blessing me because my beef with Carnegie Hall, and again
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: it was lack of technology. That's what we had. Oh yeah,
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: and the horns. I couldn't listen to. The horns sounded
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: like kazoos. It wasn't our sound. It wasn't our big sound.
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: And Lee brought that back.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: But now most people the Carnegie Hall is considered it
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: the greatest acoustics at least in the world. What was
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: the issue, just the way it was, Mike, No, no, no, it's.
• 46:42
  Speaker 5: Rock and roll.
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: It's a Cardigie Hall is built for acoustic music. That's
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: the difference. And if you put amplema, it's just you
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: can probably still hear some of the notes now towards
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: the building I here Chicago.
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: That.
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: Nineteen seventy one.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still when when I sit in my chair,
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: I screened a little of the sound out. So but
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: tell me about it's such a an amazing piece of music.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: The ballet. It's got seven it's got seven parts make
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Me Smile. I think it as at least two key
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: changes in it. And I'm not going to talk about
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: make Me Smile because I will encourage people listening to
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: go to YouTube to you know. Rick Biatto did a
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: wonderful did a wonderful breakdown of that song.
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: He's amazing.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: He's got yeah, no, he's.
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: I try to catch all his breakdowns. He does a
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: lot of it.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: He's done. He's done great ones, but I think yours
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: is one of the best.
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: He's an amazing musicologist.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he really is. And he does a fabulous
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: breakdown of make Me Smile, and you can hear all
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: the parts, and it's it's just a blast. But then
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: there's so much to say anxiety's moments, and then there's
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: the West Virginia Fantasies, which features you Lee on trumpet
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: beautiful beautiful trumpet line.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: I never learned what any of those names, because.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: Well, you know the part where you're playing beautiful trumpet parts,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: that's what it's called.
• 48:20
  Speaker 5: I love that.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: I mean, I come from it the other night because
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: I had a clip for a performance and when we're
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: when we're on stage, gig it, I can't hear a
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: lot of the nuances because there's so much going on
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: in my ears.
• 48:33
  Speaker 5: And I heard that piece very.
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: Clearly, and your tone on that thing is so nice
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: because I had never heard it on stage.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: And then there's the beautiful counterpart where Walter would come
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: in on that was was that all written out? Was
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: any of this written over?
• 48:52
  Speaker 5: Every note was written out?
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: When I wrote the ballet, I just approached it as
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: a multi movement piece.
• 48:59
  Speaker 5: You know, you're still writing it. When we were recording in.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: The Chicago, did you did you have a like a
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: classical piece of music you had in mind as a model.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: Not necessarily, but I wanted to create as a peon
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: perhaps to the great classic composers.
• 49:17
  Speaker 5: Hey, why can't we do this? And you know rock
• 49:19
  Speaker 5: and roll?
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: You know, so I just wrote an extended piece and
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: one movement evolved into another, into another. But I didn't
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: have anything titled in movements. That was Gercio's idea, said Jimmy,
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: let's title each one of those departures, each one of
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: those segues. So we have actual titles on these movements,
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: and we wind up with a almost a mini symphony
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: kind of approach.
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: Well.
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: Also, the business, the studios and record companies were allowing
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: unlimited copyrights at that time, and within a few years
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: after that they cut it down to just ten copyrights
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: on a record completely changed writers in the record business
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: because they didn't want to share. Once you had ten
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: songs on a record, you wrote the eleven song, that
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: the writers would have to start sharing their royalties. They
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: didn't want to be doing that, so it completely changed
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: their writing.
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: And I could get nasty here, but I'm not going to.
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: I'm Christian.
• 50:32
  Speaker 5: Hey, more titles, more publishing.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: Well that's what that's where I was leading. But so anyway,
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: the greed changes everything. So we were just playing music
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: and writing music, and that's what we loved. Still to
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: this day.
• 50:48
  Speaker 5: I had been listening to Bach.
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: I am totally a fan of Johann Bach, I mean,
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: arguably the most perfect voicer in the history of music.
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: I mean his voicing and his intervals were perfect. He
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: was the template in music theory. Bach was a perfectionist,
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: but Bach also cooked. Bach grooved. So here's this perfectionist
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: that had an amazing feel as well. And I was
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: listening to the Brandenburg Concertos. I got absorbed in how
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: did he do this?
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: How did he do this? It totally drew me in. Well.
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: That inspired me to sit at a piano and start
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: fooling around with our peggios. Do do do do Do
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: Do Do Do Do do a La Bach and Color
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: of My World was directly inspired by the Brandenburg Concertos.
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: It's a twelve bar turnaround of major sevens and minor sevens.
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: It's around and I put a vocal over it and
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: then a flute so over it.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: Wow, it's just amazing. But the changes in it are very,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: very interesting. They're not they're all relative.
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: There's a note in each major seven chord that that
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: sets up the next major seven or minor seven chord,
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: so they're they're.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Always using common notes to create the.
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah do do do do do do do do do
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: do do do do Do.
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: I only changed the F T an A to.
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: Make it an A minor seven from an F major
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: to an A writer, so they're relative.
• 52:37
  Speaker 5: All the chords are relative, but they.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: Flow, They flow beautiful, so it's not diatonic. It's not no,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: but it's but it has that you use the common
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: tones to keep it exactly well. The whole thing is
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: just amazing.
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: Thank you now.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: But Lee, it took you a little longer to become
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: a writer.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and these guys were already writers. I came in
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: with call on Me, you want to listen to my song?
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: So I had my little cassette put it in and had.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: You presented a lot of songs before call on Me.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: This was my first song wow, that I presented, and
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: I had to say though, you came out with a bang.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: Came out with a bang, and Sata decided to sing
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: it and became a hit. It did come in still
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: hit today. It's going to be on this fiftieth anniversary album, so.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: It's pretty cool as it should be.
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: And it was on the Chicago seven and then The
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: Greatest Hits, which we initially thought was going to be
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: our last album, because once you do the Greatest hits. Historically,
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: most bands are history after that.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: And did you think that was And it was that
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: around the time that Terry died.
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: Or Terry died shortly after that, but it was something
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: that was going on, so it did enter our hits.
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: But we just kept playing music. We just kept playing
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: our shows.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: So there wasn't a There wasn't a point you thought
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: it's been a ten year run.
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: No, because we kept working. We were interested in playing.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: He was four audiences. We loved playing for live audiences. Yeah,
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: and you still do today.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: But even after Terry died, did you feel was there
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: a moment you felt like we can't do this? He
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: was such a he was such a huge force.
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: Not a matter I can't but he was the leader
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: at the time, and we had to decide that we
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: are still together. He would want us to keep going,
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: So let's do that.
• 54:34
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: I'm only halfway through my questions and we're out of time,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: So you're gonna You're gonna come back at some point.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: We're gonna keep going. Yeah, man, this has been.
• 54:43
  Speaker 5: There won't be sixty more years though, right planning?
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll be you'll be talking to uh if my
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: brain's in a jar. That's all you'll be talking to.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: It's been a huge honor. Thank you so much.
• 54:56
  Speaker 5: Honor.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: An episode description, you'll find a link to our favorite
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: Chicago tracks, as well as the fiftieth anniversary re release
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: of Chicago nine Chicago's Greatest hits. Be sure to check
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: out YouTube Die Slash Broken Record podcast to see all
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: of our video interviews, and be sure to follow us
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: on Instagram at the Broken Record pot. You can follow
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Holliday. Broken
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: Record is production of Pushkin Industries.
• 55:28
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• 55:30
  Speaker 2: From Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is
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• 55:36
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• 55:42
  Speaker 2: please remember to share, rate, and review us on your
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.