Latest / Zone2Speak Podcast / Unlocking the Secrets of Efficient Climbing with Coach Josh Brandwene

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Unlocking the Secrets of Efficient Climbing with Coach Josh Brandwene · Zone2Speak Podcast

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Now, let's get into the episode.
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Welcome back to another episode of Zon2Speak. Today, I am joined by none other
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than Josh Brandwin, the mind behind Climb with Josh.
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Josh is a cycling coach with a deep passion for helping riders improve their
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climbing skills, build sustained power, and conquer the toughest ascends with confidence.
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With years of experience as an endurance athlete and coach, Josh has guided
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cyclists through the challenges of climbing, both physically and mentally.
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Whether it is preparing for a tough grandfondo, tackling the Pyrenees,
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or simply improving efficiency on long climbs, his coaching philosophy focuses
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on a well-rounded approach to performance.
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In this episode, I will dive into the art and science of climbing,
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explore key training principles, and get insider tips on how to handle those
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relentless uphill battles.
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Plus, we'll talk about his guided cycling trips in the Pyrenees and the experiences
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can transform a cyclist's ability.
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If you want to become a strong climber, this episode is for you.
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Let's get into it. Welcome to the podcast, Josh.
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Thanks so much, Juliana. Great to be here. And sorry, I meant to ask you how
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to pronounce your last name. I hope I didn't butcher it.
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You actually nailed it, and it's not an easy one to nail, so well done.
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Wow, wow, I'm proud. So tell me, how did you get into this sport,
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and especially on the niche of how to become a cycling coach specializing in climbing?
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No, it's a great question. So I,
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for many years, was an age group half marathoner. And so I love endurance.
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I love the science behind the training, the everything, the planning,
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the preparation, laying out your training plan, course reconnaissance, the whole nine yards.
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And I did that for a bunch of years. I was probably doing no more than two half marathons a year.
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And then as I got a little bit older, down into one.
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And then my hip and back more or less basically said, you're all done with running, pal.
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And I had dealt with back spasms, lower back joint issues, things of that nature.
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And it was one Christmas. All I did was bend down to tie my shoes.
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And I literally spent the whole Christmas holiday immobile.
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And it was one of those moments where I'm like, this is wonderful for me,
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but it's terrible for me.
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It's just not suiting me. And I'm not anti-running at all, but I just could
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not enjoy it and stay healthy enough to do it.
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And I dabbled a little bit with cycling throughout the years.
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And our daughter is a elite university level triathlete.
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So she's actually the original cyclist in the family.
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And so I just made the decision. I love endurance. I love endurance training.
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It's time. So I made the switch to cycling and like so many people,
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I just fell in love with it.
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I found it even more enjoyable than running, much easier on the body and,
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when you eliminate that hip extension and the pounding from running,
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I discovered I could train more days a week.
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I could train longer. I could train harder.
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And I really just fell in love with everything about it from the bike technology
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and who doesn't love shopping for bikes and who doesn't love shopping cycling kit.
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There's just so much that goes into it.
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So I went all in and I found that I could train for events that were even longer in duration.
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And I loved everything about it. So a couple of years into my cycling journey,
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my degree is in kinesiology.
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So I had the background for it.
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I had been a many years ago, high school age cross-country running coach.
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And I decided I really wanted to apply those skills in cycling.
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So I got my coaching license. I started working with folks.
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My initial and still to a degree ongoing area is endurance.
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So if someone needs a coach to train them for crits or for sprinting, I am not their guy.
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That is not my specialty. I'm going to certainly recommend them to other people.
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I know my lane. And then my journey to climbing, I think is a relatable one.
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There are certainly Only riders who have the physical characteristics,
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they're sort of born climbers.
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I don't resent them at all. I tip my hat. And I think it's amazing what they
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can do, not only with their effort and their training, but based on their physiology
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and their DNA and their makeup. That's not me. I'm like the every person.
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We've walked miles in each other's shoes.
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So I still remember the first six months that I rode, I was deathly afraid of climbing.
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As a runner, in order to stay healthy, I didn't do much in the way of any courses
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that had elevation because my Achilles and my feet just didn't hold up to it well.
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So I was running on the flats.
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Transitioning to cycling was new enough. I didn't really feel comfortable climbing.
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And my initial thought, and I think a lot of people go through this, is that's not for me.
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I can't do that. and I think
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it's funny I joke but this is true I think
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I spent the first four months whenever I was doing indoor
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rides on Zwift I never left Tempest Fugate I stayed on the flats even on Zwift
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and I was very fortunate to really be exposed to some really welcoming and you
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know the cycling community it's just so welcoming and the whole endurance sport
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community is Yeah. And I got introduced to climbing.
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And lo and behold, here I am these years later. And I just have a passion for
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both the science and the art of climbing. So that's a little bit about my background.
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So you conquered the fear and went above and beyond.
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Now it's one of your passions, I guess, because you're coaching climbing and
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you have, we'll talk a little bit more later on, your camping trips in the Pyrenees,
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which is all climbing. It is.
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So some other parts of the climbing piece, and I have some.
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Social media has turned out to be an amazing gift when it comes to the endurance
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sport and the cycling community.
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Because the two things that sort of got me, no pun intended,
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over the hump with embracing climbing were the original group that I still ride
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with here in my hometown in Littitz, Pennsylvania, the Littitz crew.
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These guys are just so welcoming
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so genuine and just being out with
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them i didn't have a choice on what route we were doing so you go where they're
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going and you learn that at least even initially all right this is tough this
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is hard but it's something that i can embrace and it's something that i can
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do even with the we have some elevation around here nothing that compares to
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the Pyrenees. So that was one experience.
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Two, I was very fortunate with a couple of the gentlemen that I connected with
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on Instagram from England, Lou Roberts and Ade Murphy, still close friends with them on Instagram.
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I got invited to a Zwift ride over the Christmas holiday one year to go up Alpe de Zwift.
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And it was one of those things where I'm like, All right.
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These are mates. I don't want to say no to them.
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I've never done something like this before, but I hopped in and really that was the moment.
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And I give them so much credit for pushing me to do that these years ago that
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I was like, wow, this is kind of cool.
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This is a really unique challenge. So over the course of time,
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in just combining the science that goes into not just the basics of cycling
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and the basics of endurance cycling,
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but also the characteristics that go into cycling.
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Humming a better climber, they fascinate me.
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And I'm even to this day still learning. There's always something new to learn
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about the experience of climbing.
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You've got short climbs, you've got longer climbs with less gradient,
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you've got sort of climbs that are very even in their elevation that is very
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different than climbs that have, you know, a variation and ramps and false flats
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and even little sections of downhills.
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It's all different both from a training standpoint, from a tactical standpoint,
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a pacing standpoint, and also honoring and celebrating the different physical
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characteristics we all have that are going to suit us towards certain styles of climbing.
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And I just, there's nothing I don't love about it.
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And that's even before we talk Talk about the natural beauty of being up in
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the mountains, which at the end of the day is the most important thing.
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I was going to say that, not just the natural beauty, being nature,
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but also when you get to the top is such a wonderful accomplishment,
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you know, a feeling of accomplishment. It is.
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As I've just put my website together, it's very basic, but one of the things
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I talk about is, and I truly believe this,
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climbing is that combination of art and science, and while it seems cliche,
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it is to a certain degree poetry, because you have to write your own verse with it.
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And one of the trap doors of social media is the world of social comparison.
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And well, this person's doing this and this person's doing this.
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And I'm no calm hunter. I am not going to be the person in the top five,
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10% of a leaderboard overall on any of the climbs, even in my own age group.
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I'm not going to be the crown wearer and I'm okay with that.
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It's me against me. It's me against the mountain.
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And it's so important for everyone to approach it that way.
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That allows for you to experience joy when you get to the summit,
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as opposed to where did I finish on the leaderboard compared to everybody else,
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because we can't compare ourselves to each other.
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A hundred percent agree. I'm a wellness coach as well.
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And I talk a lot about that, you know, of mental strategies, comparing yourself.
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I mean, you can compare to a limit maybe for inspiration and motivation,
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but not to put yourself down.
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You know i think look what we
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are doing you're getting on a bike you're already
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winning you're climbing a mountain you're winning look
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at your body's doing and instead of comparing yourself where you're falling
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into the performance and you know just compare your own performance how are
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you progressing or if you're reaching a plateau and so talking about that what
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are the differences of training for climbing for climbs then like you said you're not a crit.
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Coach for example so what would be the difference
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because i remember once i had i used to triathlons and then i was doing the
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nice ironman which is very hilly i think it's the hilliest of them all over
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2 000 meters climb in in 90 kilometers it was the 70.3 distance and i was living
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in dubai It's pretty much flat,
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but we had like one little overpass or something and my coach was like making me go back and forth.
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Right. And some people are like, no, that's not what you do.
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Like, I don't know what to do.
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Well, so what's the big difference in training for climb?
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Well, believe it or not, I'm going to start with the similarities because there
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are some foundational basics that matter for all of us as cyclists,
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regardless of the terrain, regardless of the distance.
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In differing levels of importance but they're all important and the first one
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and i honor the name of your podcast comes down to zone two.
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Does. And we as a coaching body do a good job of following the science as it
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relates to zone two in its proper proportion,
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whether that's 80% of your time in zone two,
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going along with make your easy days easy, make your hard days hard.
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We do a really good job of that.
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But the next level is helping
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folks truly understand the why
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behind zone two because understanding
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the why helps with motivation
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and a certain amount of badge of honor that once you understand the why that
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comes along with this is why I'm doing this much volume at that level so when
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you're done with a session or
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you're done with a period of time where it's almost exclusively zone two,
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you have that sense of accomplishment because we've all had the experience of
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doing a zone two workout where you get done and we're like, did I push myself hard enough?
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Yeah. And it can leave you, if you don't understand the why, feeling unfulfilled.
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And so understanding what we're doing metabolically to improve ourselves as
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cyclists in zone two really matters.
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And it comes down to metabolics and the difference between slow twitch fibers
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and their use and fast twitch fibers and their use. So I won't break out the charts and graphs.
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I'm not going to do a crazy deep dive into the science. I will stick to the basics.
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But when we are on an easy ride, whether that's called a zone two ride,
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call it a coffee ride, call it party pace, call it whatever you want.
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We are almost exclusively using
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our slow twitch fibers and it's
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that feeling you get where you know you can keep going for a
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long period of time you are maybe your
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breathing rate is just slightly difficult
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but you can hold a conversation whereas when we get up like high into tempo
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and then into threshold and any kind of either sustained maximum effort or a
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max power effort where we're breathing so hard like we can't even talk,
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we're using all of our concentrative powers just to stay focused on the road, that's different.
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So when we are using the high-end efforts, that's fast-twitch fibers.
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Our fast-twitch fibers, and we all know what this experience feels like,
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that's when our legs start burning and that's the production of lactic acid.
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Fast-twitch fibers don't clear lactate.
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They work hard, they produce lactate. It is only our slow-twitch fibers that clear the lactate.
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So, in order to become a better,
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well-rounded cyclist and someone who can handle an extended climb,
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and the definition of an extended climb can vary from person to person and from gradient to gradient.
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But in order to be able to handle an extended climb, naturally,
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no matter how much you try to pace yourself, you're fighting against gravity,
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you might be fighting crosswinds and headwinds and road conditions to go along with it.
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We're gonna have to produce power at
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some point and we're gonna create lactate when
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the lactate builds it must be used as
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a secondary fuel source and then it has to
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be cleared only a well-developed set of slow twitch fibers can do that and those
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slow twitch fibers only experience the training effect when we are at what we refer to as zone two.
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As soon as you start putting out, and this is a little bit oversimplified,
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but as soon as you start putting out too much power, too much effort,
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too high a breathing rate, too high a heart rate,
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yeah, you're using those zone two fibers, but you're not growing them.
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So they need to be grown and they need to become more efficient.
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And we can get into, and I won't get into it, but we can talk about terms like
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mitochondrial function and all these other things that truly are, they matter.
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If we don't do that, we're not setting ourselves up for success.
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And so we still, the most important thing is to develop that massive lactate clearing capacity.
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And that's what zone two training does. And when a rider understands that,
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they at least are able to take the leap of faith that that work is making a difference.
20:09
It doesn't happen after one session, doesn't happen after one week,
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doesn't even happen it after one month, it's week over week,
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month over month, even year over year on training cycle to make your lactate
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clearing capacity as efficient as possible.
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So that is at its core, got to have that if you're going to climb.
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It doesn't matter how strong you are, you can do all the strength training you want.
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If you can't clear the lactate that's going to build up, yeah,
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you might get to the top, but you are going to suffer mightily and it's going to hurt anyway.
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But it won't be type two fun. It won't necessarily be fun. So that's an important part of it.
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The second important part of it is sustained power training.
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We get so caught up with FTP.
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FTP is merely a guide to the creation of training zones. It is not the be all end all.
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It's only apples to apples relevance would be is if you were literally training
21:16
for somewhere in the neighborhood of a 60 minute time trial,
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under pretty pristine conditions because you want to be putting out a power
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that's about what you can handle for about that hour.
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Climbs are going to vary in length. Some climbs will be much shorter than an hour.
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Some climbs are going to be much longer than an hour. You get to the Tourmalet,
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you get to the Col de Fortet, you get to climbs in some other regions of the
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world, you're going longer than an hour.
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It's not the be-all, end-all, but it comes down to the appropriate amount of
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training per week with sustained power outputs.
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And sustained, I consider sort of a range of that to be anywhere of like intervals
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between as low as three minutes all the way up to 15, 20 minutes.
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Obviously, you don't want to get much past 20 minutes.
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You're just, you're tearing yourself down for no reason. So train low,
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train high, make sure that you provide adequate amount of recovery into your week of training.
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And these are things that do matter for endurance training, even as much as
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they matter for climbing training. So there are a lot of similarities that go into the two.
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Some of the things that will matter are finding time to climb,
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whether that's indoor and or outdoor.
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Obviously, outdoor gives you the whole experience because you're fighting gravity
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and everything else that goes along with getting prepared for a trip in the
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mountains or whatever it is you want to accomplish.
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Even if you live somewhere that's flat and you don't have access it won't be quite apples to apples.
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Indoor climbing training does make a difference.
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There's nothing wrong with structured training in erg mode in a broad sense.
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I use it plenty with my athletes that I work with. But if you're specifically
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training for climbing at some point, at some phase, we are going to cut you
23:14
loose in free mode and you're going
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to do some climbing, whether you're on Zwift, whether you're on Ruby,
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there are places that will create elevation because then you are fighting against
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resistance in a non-ERG setting, which creates an environment as similar as
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possible to the outdoor climbing.
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So that is one of the significant differences in the just sort of overall training
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and the specificity of climbing.
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And now this is great information.
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Yeah, now I live in Girona, so I can do a lot of climbing outdoors and I do feel the difference.
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But when I lived in flat places and Miami, New York, Dubai, then I did a lot
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of indoors and I think it does make a difference.
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You know, I am a big fan of the structure training, especially when you're on
24:03
the road. Sometimes you don't know
24:04
what can happen or red light and things like that. It gets on the way.
24:08
But what's your take on cadence versus power when climbing?
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What should riders focus on? Spinning faster or push bigger gears?
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I'm a spinner. I'm a big spinner. And my husband's always telling me,
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like, one more gear, one more gear.
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And I'm like, no, no pain.
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It is such an important question that you ask. It is an incredibly hotly debated topic.
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And my approach to it is it's got to be tailored to the individual as long as
24:46
it is not on either extreme.
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I am not a believer in demanding a certain cadence from any rider.
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There are plug-and-play structured training sessions on platforms that will
25:04
remain nameless that bark at you. You need to be riding at Cadence X or Cadence Y.
25:11
No, it is a pathway to madness because we are all physiologically different.
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And a lot of that has to come down to an individual's balance of slow twitch
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versus fast twitch fibers.
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Nobody's all one or the other, but we do have massive physiological differences between us.
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And as a result of that, for me to tell a rider, you must ride at this cadence
25:38
or you have to increase your cadence, I am quite potentially doing them a disservice.
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Again, as long as it's not on the extreme, yes, of course, especially with climbing,
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you could be grinding way too big a gear and have your cadence way too low,
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way too much stress on your tendons,
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taxing yourself far too much muscularly.
26:02
And on the other end, you could literally be spinning at such a ridiculously
26:07
high cadence that you're putting stress on your hip flexors,
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you're bouncing up and down in the saddle, you're being inefficient.
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So nobody should be operating on either of those extremes.
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But everybody's sweet spot is going to be different. I'm like you,
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I'm a high cadence rider.
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That's what works for me. If I drop the cadence too much, I am going to suffer.
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So I'll give you an example. Like when I arrived in the Pyrenees last September,
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I flew from the States through Heathrow to Toulouse.
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I made it to Toulouse. My bike decided to stay at Heathrow for a couple of days.
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So luckily, I came well enough in advance, which I always do.
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Our guests were not arriving for three days, but I didn't want to sit in the mountains and not ride.
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So my partner on the ground, Richie Barnes, the property owner who I partner
26:58
with and work with on the logistics and everything else. got me to bike higher.
27:02
I got a wonderful carbon road bike to climb with, but the rear cassette was different.
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And I'm an 1134 guy in the back. I need the 34.
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It makes a difference for me because I'm a higher cadence rider.
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So I had an 1130. It's not terrible.
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And so I went up the cold ass band and I went up the parasord with the 1130
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and not like I couldn't make it.
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In a reasonably efficient time, but there was no way I was going to be at my
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very most efficient and best on the 1130.
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I do better with a slightly higher cadence. Nothing crazy.
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Other riders are going to do better at a slightly lower cadence,
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and it's something riders need to experiment with, And that's why both climbing
27:53
indoors and climbing outdoors to find that sweet spot makes a difference.
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For me, if I drop it too low, I'm torching myself muscularly.
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But I work with riders who if they spin too high, their heart rate soars,
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their breathing rate soars, for them it is inefficient.
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So there's no magic bullet for cadence. It's just stay away from the extremes.
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I really like that you said that it makes me happy because
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a lot of people are against the spinners and it's
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not like I'm spinning and staying at the same place like said
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I'm not like right end of the spectrum but it's good
28:31
to know we are different and the sweet spot it's dependent
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on you so that's exactly and are
28:38
there any big mistakes that
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cyclists make when it comes to climbing and is
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there anything that can do to fix them i would
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say there are two big born out of well intention mistakes
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that climbers make first is
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in training and not trusting the science behind the 80 20 rule 80 percent of
29:02
your saddle time zone two or less maximum 20 percent at high intensity training
29:08
it we get this we have such a.
29:13
Such a mentality, more is always better.
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I think societally, I don't even limit that to just endurance sports or sports in general.
29:22
It's more, more, more, more, more, more, more, more, more, is not better.
29:26
High-intensity training breaks you down muscularly.
29:32
Even on a day where you're not super sore outwardly from high-intensity training,
29:39
you are doing metabolic and microscopic damage to yourself.
29:45
It is a stress that you're putting your body under, and your body is going to respond to that.
29:51
You don't get stronger on the high-intensity day. You get stronger on the recovery
29:58
and rest days that come after it because your body heals and adapts and gets stronger.
30:04
So that's why the high intensity training needs to be limited.
30:08
So if you keep hammering it, hammering it, hammering it, you're going to make
30:12
yourself a slower, more injury prone, worse cyclist.
30:16
It's so important to trust the percentages.
30:20
To be honest with you, there's a great study they did a
30:23
couple of years ago on it was a number
30:25
of riders who finished high up in the gc on the
30:28
giro d'italia there were riders doing as
30:33
little as eight or nine percent of
30:36
their volume at high intensity training it's just
30:39
it's there's there's data and science
30:42
to back it up trust the science try make the leap of faith make your hard days
30:47
hard make them few and far between make your easy days easy and that's what's
30:53
going to help you grow as a cyclist the other one comes from tactically and it's pacing.
31:00
We've all made this mistake. And oh, I've made this mistake because we all have
31:05
those moments with even as much as I know better.
31:08
No, I don't know. I'm going to overcome it. I feel great today.
31:11
I'm going to go really hard and I'm going to bank time at the beginning.
31:15
No, you're not. And this is why the pure just getting over-focused on FTP doesn't matter.
31:23
When it comes to different individual power outputs, and I'm not talking about
31:30
pure watts, I'm talking about on a relative scale, on what's in and around your threshold,
31:36
what's in and around the most power you could put out for, let's say,
31:41
a one-minute effort or a five or a 10-minute effort.
31:45
It's not linear. We all have different strengths in those areas.
31:51
And I will quote, and this is the cycling coach that's had the most impact on
31:55
me professionally, is Dr.
31:59
Inigo Sanmalan. I mean, he was Tadej Pogacar's lifelong coach up until very,
32:05
very recently, even through his first two Tour de France victories.
32:09
Talks about it's FTP of what?
32:13
Is it FTP of five minutes, 10 minutes, whatever it might be.
32:19
We all know that if we go a little too far on a five, 10 minute effort, we're going to blow up.
32:27
But that blow up point is different for all of us at different lengths of time.
32:33
And so I think we've all made the mistake of getting a little too big for our
32:37
britches and a little too, you know what, I'm going to overcome the science, go too hard.
32:42
And we're either going to find ourselves at best slowing down and making it
32:49
a slog, a really slow slog and painful one for the rest of the climb, or clipped out,
32:57
doubled over, catching our breath, trying to get ourselves going sideways and
33:01
back up the mountain again. And I've done them both. I think we all have.
33:04
Being there for sure. Exactly.
33:08
Hastings needs to be learned and experimented with.
33:11
So for anyone who lives in any sort of hilly area at all,
33:16
sending them out to do some, as long as it's a safe road and a safe environment,
33:21
some hill repeats where I'm not giving them much instruction. You know how long it is.
33:26
I want you to push yourself as hard as you think you can, where you know you
33:31
have to do two more of these and you're not going slow, but you're not blowing up.
33:37
And I celebrate when athletes make the mistakes, because when they make the
33:41
mistakes, they're learning what their limit is.
33:44
That's the art, poetry piece of this. That is going to be different for all
33:49
of us, and you can only learn through experimentation.
33:52
So those are the two biggest mistakes I see. It makes sense.
33:55
As you said, it makes total sense, because been there, done that on all of us.
34:02
I remember once, way back in the day, I was with my brother.
34:07
In the French Alps and we were writing and yeah, I had those moments that I
34:12
wanted to keep up with him and then just couldn't anymore. I had to stop and clip.
34:17
And then the worst part was I realized I couldn't clip and write up in the middle. Yeah.
34:28
But so you're talking about, you know, we
34:32
are talking about the training do you also incorporate
34:35
essential workouts as well to go along with the cycling training would you incorporate
34:42
some workouts to improve the climbing we're talking about strength training
34:46
specifically or any um so from a strength training standpoint if someone asks.
34:54
I, as a former personal trainer and someone with a kinesiology degree,
34:58
will give them some basics.
35:00
And it's really the kinetic chain stuff from legs through the core that are
35:05
really important. Things like single leg deadlifts.
35:07
It can be split squats, things of that nature.
35:11
I'm not going to get into the weeds with it and start recommending squats with a bar in their back.
35:17
I won't necessarily know enough about somebody's structural spine health to
35:23
be able to do that. I will recommend that they work with a personal trainer
35:26
or a physical therapist in their own region in order to do that.
35:30
My athletes are all over the globe. I work with athletes from England,
35:34
Scotland, down in Spain, in Canada.
35:38
So it's a very global population and I don't want to ever do something that's
35:42
going to put them in a bad way.
35:44
But certainly strength training can and should be a part of it.
35:46
But it's dialed in very specific for cyclists.
35:51
And so there's a lot you can do right.
35:54
There's a lot you can do wrong. And there are even some things you can do that
35:58
are actually going to make you slower as a cyclist. So it's an area to tread carefully in.
36:01
In terms of sessions on the bike, obviously, we've talked a lot about the zone two sessions.
36:07
And we try to make those as entertaining as possible.
36:11
It's not really possible, but we'll at least mix up and change the interval
36:15
within zone two as much as possible on certain days.
36:18
It's funny, I do have a particular workout I give my athletes typically only once a month.
36:23
It's called a heart rate drift ride where it's literally, it's either 60 or
36:27
65% of your quote FTP trade across.
36:32
And what I'm analyzing is their heart rate, not from a pure standpoint per se.
36:37
Although if it's very different, it matters, but more to see whether or not
36:40
it's drifting significantly upward.
36:42
If you see a super upward drift in the heart rate, that is an indication of one of two things.
36:48
Either they're overtrained and we got to back some training off because you're
36:51
fatiguing fast or you're.
36:54
We really need to focus on mitochondrial development and the zone two stuff.
36:59
The high intensity stuff really centers around, you know, the typical term is threshold.
37:05
And that's that effort that is just sort of slightly below what somebody's quote unquote FTP is.
37:13
If you're doing too much training over FTP, which doesn't say you can't,
37:18
there's a lot of breakdown that occurs in that.
37:22
And so especially as it comes to like older cyclists like myself.
37:25
I'm not sprinting. I don't want to sprint.
37:28
I don't think a lot of people in my age group do exactly.
37:32
So there's just when you're talking about max efforts, that's a horse of a different
37:39
animal. That's for sprinters.
37:40
That's for crit races. It's not hugely important.
37:43
We're talking about sustained efforts. So it's sort of growing higher intensity,
37:49
sustained threshold blocks. And I have a whole progression that goes from threshold
37:54
one all the way up to threshold 15.0.
37:57
And so it takes you in a progression from multiple really short threshold blocks
38:05
through lengthening them.
38:07
And then going from a lot of small blocks to fewer bigger blocks all the way up through.
38:16
And so that's a series that helps people grow over time. That's neither rushing
38:24
them into overtraining or crushing their spirit either.
38:28
Anytime an athlete writes back to me, first two reps were kind of hard.
38:32
The last three reps were really hard. I barely survived them like music to my
38:36
ears. That means we did it right.
38:38
And so there's a whole progression with that.
38:41
The other piece, and I give again, Dr.
38:43
Nigo Sanmulan credit for learning this from him is what's called zone four at
38:48
the end, because it's a practical application of what you're going to experience.
38:55
So you do a proper warmup, a significant,
38:58
not crazy long, but a significant zone two
39:02
block and then you do a block a threshold
39:04
at the end i like that that's it
39:08
makes sense we don't we're not getting on a starting line for a climb and going
39:13
through a proper warm-up you've probably ridden for a good 30 minutes at hopefully
39:19
zone two where you're saving your matchsticks and then you're on the climb and
39:22
and so not all climbs but so many climbs have a ramp at the end.
39:28
You're going to have to be able to practically put out a fair amount of power at the end.
39:34
Perfect example of that is the steepest ramps on the coal to tourmalay are at the end.
39:39
And if you manage your effort level throughout the Col de Tourmalay and your
39:45
nutrition, which is fueling is so important while riding. It's going to be my
39:49
next question. Oh, great. I can't wait.
39:52
And if you manage your effort and your fueling and you've trained to clear lactate,
39:56
you'll have the ability to put out some power at the end because it kicks up.
40:02
And when we were there, not only it kicks up for everybody, the wind started
40:06
howling in September. It's not the type of weather you'll get during the summer
40:09
for our upcoming trips, but in late September, we had some fun with the weather, let's say.
40:15
Yeah, I bet. So, yeah, so talking about nutrition, what role does nutrition
40:21
play in preparing for a big climb for maintaining energy during the long effort?
40:28
I'll stick to the basics. I am not a certified nutritionist in any way, shape, or form.
40:34
I've been very fortunate to learn so much from a number of wonderful sports
40:40
nutritionists, including we just launched a for we have two sold out weeks in
40:46
the Pyrenees. I know we'll get to that in a few minutes.
40:48
Yeah. We just launched a third week in over 50 weeks.
40:51
And it's being co-run by myself and Saskia Kleinert, who specializes in nutrition
40:57
and especially nutrition and wellness and flourishing for folks who are cyclists
41:02
who are a little bit older.
41:04
So, it's hugely important and I'm grateful to her and everybody else I've learned from.
41:09
So, for me, it comes down to fuel your ride early, fuel it often,
41:18
nothing new on event day.
41:22
And by event day, it could be a Gran Fondo, it could be the days you're in the
41:25
Pyrenees climbing, whatever it might be. you don't want to be experimenting
41:28
with things that might upset your stomach at that point.
41:30
But years and decades ago, the old school was have your water,
41:36
maybe every now and then have a half a banana or something like that.
41:40
And that's never been the correct science.
41:45
And I, once upon a lifetime, was old school too.
41:49
And I know what it's like to legit bonk.
41:54
It is something I would never wish on my worst enemy.
41:58
You feel you're not really going
42:01
to die, but you feel like you're going to die because you feel so bad.
42:07
It's not just being depleted. It's not just being under fueled. It's really unhealthy.
42:12
And so at best, it's really going to hurt your performance.
42:15
At worst, you're getting picked up by the sag wagon and your day on the mountain
42:20
is over. and you can't start when it's too late.
42:24
So for me personally, and everybody has a different, well, you have to start
42:29
at this time in your ride. I'm taking a nutrition 20 minutes into every ride.
42:33
Force-feeding myself or stuffing my yap, but I'm constantly taking it in in
42:39
products that I know work for me and give me energy and do not in the least upset my stomach.
42:47
And I will keep that going. My brother and I did a Gran Fondo up in Vermont
42:52
in the United States last summer.
42:54
And in my longest training ride for it, which I had about 12,000 feet of climbing,
43:01
I was out for a good five hours, I had every bit of 2,500 calories during the day.
43:09
Liquid calories, calories from bars and things like that,
43:14
as well as a stop for a Coke and a bag of potato chips cannot underestimate
43:19
the importance of fueling,
43:21
not only for what it's going to do for you while you're riding,
43:26
but the difference it makes in recovery the next day.
43:32
Before I made the transition to modern science with nutrition,
43:36
after a hard training session, so I'll go back a couple winters indoors, I'd just be wrecked.
43:43
Terrible sleep, heart rate variability, really terrible, bad recovery, really sore.
43:50
As soon as I started fueling my rides, I might be fatigued some the next day, you should be.
43:56
I felt like I could go again. And so if you take care of the fueling,
44:00
when you're spending six days riding in the Pyrenees, you will be able to keep riding.
44:06
If you're not fueling, not recovering, getting some carbs and some protein in
44:11
you right after the event, you're just not controlling all your controllables
44:15
to have a great experience. So fueling is super important.
44:18
Yeah, yeah. I'm always eating when I'm cycling.
44:23
And i think it's so funny all those people that
44:26
say they don't remember to eat and they need to set their biking
44:28
computer to alert them which is
44:31
great that they have that but for me i'm like i don't need a reminder
44:34
and i'm like oh still need to wait another few minutes
44:37
to eat again exactly exactly yeah
44:42
well there's so much to unpacking climbing we could be talking
44:45
here for hours i want to get into your climbing trips
44:49
because that's so interesting and so many people are
44:52
doing this more and more and more and i think your trips are so
44:55
unique especially the one now that you're doing
44:58
with the 50 plus group which i
45:00
think it's a niche that a lot of people are
45:03
not catering to and there are so many 50 plus people that also want to participate
45:07
on those things without the fear of having so many young people and being dropped
45:12
or something like that i mean a lot of the 50 plus are super fit but yeah so
45:17
tell me a little bit about the the cycling clamps you lead in the Pyrenees,
45:23
and I don't know if there are other areas of the world that you're also doing that.
45:26
Stay tuned. There will be other areas of the world. So the whole story behind
45:30
how this came about, I think, is such a statement about the cycling community
45:35
and the shared passion and the connections we make.
45:39
So back to...
45:43
Last summer, I got a direct message out of the blue from Richie Barnes,
45:48
MSK 65 in the Pyrenees, beautiful little property in this wonderful village
45:53
in the Haute Pyrenees, Satankola.
45:55
And he has a property that he rents. He rents it to cyclists.
45:59
He rents it to hikers and skiers during the winter.
46:02
He is a lifelong cyclist, a racer, is in the industry in so many different ways. and he reached out.
46:09
He's like, I want to do some unique things. I don't just want to rent the property.
46:13
I want to partner with a coach.
46:15
I want to bring people in to have a certain type of experience.
46:19
And he and I are very alike in that regard that we're in an era where cycling
46:26
experiences and experience in general has always mattered, but it's what people crave right now.
46:31
We are more connected yet more alone as a society than we've ever been.
46:35
And the opportunity to do things like this with other like-minded people is
46:42
such a powerful experience.
46:45
So he and I connected. We just mesh really well together as professionals and
46:51
colleagues and now friends that we put that very first trip together in September of 2024.
46:58
And it was a massive, massive success. It was incredible.
47:03
We just had this amazing group of people. We had a sold out full house.
47:08
Everybody had a great experience. And that was sort of our proof of concept.
47:13
For we're onto something really great right
47:16
here because it was it's not just the climbing it's the camaraderie it's
47:19
the it's the dinners afterward and telling
47:22
the story and the bantering at the amazing restaurant
47:26
chez bruno in town this whatever it's exactly what you'd expect from a rural
47:31
sam leone french restaurant beautiful amazing food not a it's not an overly
47:40
formal place but the food in the atmosphere is wonderful.
47:43
And it's 200 meters from the house.
47:47
Your bikes are all put away and clean for the day. You walk around the corner
47:50
and you're there. So we had this great trip.
47:53
And now we have a sold out women's week in early July.
47:58
That's another hugely important niche. I mean, I have a wife who's a cyclist
48:02
now, and obviously I've talked about my daughter.
48:05
And So for me, making sure there are environments that are super welcoming and
48:11
authentic for female cyclists is incredibly important.
48:15
So we partnered with somebody who's really helped us get going with that.
48:20
And we've got an amazing trip there. The week after is our Tour de France week
48:25
because there's some amazing stages coming all within 2030K of the house.
48:29
So the week after that is our Tour de France week, where we are not only riding
48:34
the famous climbs, but we get to watch two stages.
48:37
We're going to go to the Mountain Time Trial on the Perigoude,
48:41
and then we get to watch the summit finish on the Super Bannière,
48:44
which hasn't been used in the Tour de France in decades.
48:47
So, I mean, we're parking a car on the side of the road days in advance.
48:50
We're going to ride to the summit, come back. We'll have snacks.
48:53
We'll have refreshments.
48:54
So again, it's not just a climb. Pretty magical.
48:56
Yeah. Yeah. So we'll have those. So for people who missed out on those this
49:00
year, the women's and the Tour de France will be running both those weeks next year in 2026.
49:06
And then obviously the over 50 week is the 20th to 27th of July.
49:12
And you hit the nail on the head. It's.
49:16
Cyclists of all ages are wonderful, wonderful people.
49:21
But again, I'm a calm hunter.
49:24
I'm not hanging with a 23-year-old and their level of fitness.
49:30
So I totally understand why the over 50 week,
49:34
the initial response we've gotten to it has been overwhelming,
49:39
where it is resonating with people because they do want to be in an environment
49:45
where they don't want to feel,
49:47
not so much even feel bad about themselves, but they don't want to feel like
49:50
they're holding up the group.
49:51
They don't want to feel like they're straggling so far behind.
49:55
They want to be with just people who are in the same space they are,
50:02
where maybe this is something they did when they were younger and were suddenly
50:06
like, well, I'll never get to do that again.
50:08
No, you absolutely can do that again. or maybe you were at a different phase in your life.
50:12
Maybe you weren't even a cyclist yet, or you were busy completely in your full-time
50:16
work and raising a family and you never got the chance to do this.
50:20
And suddenly you're like, well, the time passed me by. No, it hasn't.
50:24
Yes. Maybe we're going to climb it a little bit slower. Who cares?
50:28
It's that you versus you, you versus the mountain, a promise for anybody who's
50:34
considering a trip like this over 50 or even otherwise, there is no feeling
50:39
like getting to the summit of these places.
50:41
It does not matter how long it takes you.
50:44
I promise you, you are going to have that overwhelming, just connected sense of accomplishment.
50:52
I'll use the summit of the cold Aspan as an example. Obviously,
50:56
so many of the climbs are in the zonal pastoral where it's just open for farm
51:00
animals and grazing. I've never experienced anything like.
51:06
The stillness and the calmness of the
51:09
top of the cold aspan with the
51:12
cowbells clanking slowly it's you
51:16
know and it's i can describe it
51:19
as best i can but until you've experienced it and you can get there yes they're
51:25
longer climbs the thing about the pyrenees it's not the steepest place in the
51:31
world you can do this get the proper gearing on your bike give yourself that
51:36
little bit of ability to spin.
51:38
Okay, maybe you're not going to go quite as fast. Who cares?
51:41
You get to the summit. We all descend together. This is how we run our trips.
51:45
We all ride together in the valley.
51:49
Nobody should be burning matchsticks or toasting powder in the valley anyway.
51:55
We save it for the climbs.
51:58
Everybody climbs at their own pace. It doesn't matter what week it is,
52:02
it could be women's week, Tour de France week, over 50 week,
52:06
and that gets back, Juliana, to that we all had different physiological characteristics.
52:10
It makes no sense for two physiologically different climbers who both may be
52:17
very accomplished and very good to try to tackle it at the same rate.
52:22
And what plays, I'll dip a little bit back into the science here because one
52:25
of the things we haven't talked about that often gets overlooked are the subjects
52:29
of repeatability and durability.
52:32
They're both important and they can both be trained, but there is a genetic component to it.
52:39
Me personally, my repeatability sucks.
52:43
It's not an area of strength. It never has been. I've made it better relatively through training.
52:50
I am not going to be somebody who can surge, recover.
52:55
And when I'm talking about surge, I'm like putting yourself into the red and
52:58
coming back, putting yourself into the red and coming back. I'm very slow twitch oriented.
53:03
A cycler who has a little bit more of a sprinter's capability and fast switch fibers is,
53:09
can surge, recover, surge, recover.
53:13
And this goes for the pros too. Yes, it's much narrower on a relative scale.
53:18
Look at the difference between Tadej Pogacar and Jonas Vingago.
53:25
Vingago, inevitably in a very short
53:27
500-600 meter effort, is going to get gapped a little bit by Pogacar.
53:31
Tadej Pogacar has more of that repeatability.
53:36
Garan Thomas, one of the greatest all-time to ever do this sport.
53:39
You never see him, unless he absolutely has to, go.
53:43
He's got to do the climb at his own pace. So if they have to do the climb at
53:47
their own pace, I really think it's okay for the rest of us to do that.
53:50
That's true. That's a good point. We all go at our own pace.
53:54
We meet at the summit, assuming the weather's good.
53:57
We're cheering for each other. It's high fives. It's fist bumps. We descend.
54:01
Maybe we do it again. If it's a two-climb day, we go home. If we shower,
54:05
we go out to eat and we celebrate. That's what it's all about.
54:09
Amazing. So you're there seven days with different groups. Do people bring their
54:13
own bikes or can they rent there?
54:16
Either. Either is fine. You can bring your own. A lot of people are very particular.
54:21
Again, I'm a perfect example. I got there with no bike because of Heathrow Airport.
54:25
I was able to do bike hire. I had a Trek Amanda carbon frame disc and I was
54:30
good to go for a couple of days.
54:31
So it's, you know, it's about 15K from the house. It's not a big deal.
54:34
But yeah, you can arrange in advance to do your own bike hire.
54:37
Wonderful. You touched a little bit on the gear.
54:41
I still want to talk about the camp, but just because you touched on the gear,
54:45
I just want to ask if you have any must-haves bike set up and gear considerations for efficient climb.
54:52
If you are, in general, a strong rider, it can be done on a typical 1130.
55:03
I wouldn't recommend any lower than that, but there are a lot of bikes that come with 1130.
55:07
And again, I was on an 1130 on my bike hire for a couple days.
55:11
I'm picky. I think a lot of people in cycling are.
55:14
And certainly as a cycling coach and someone who's a little higher cadence,
55:18
I was picky, but I still managed it. I could have been on that bike the whole
55:21
week and I would have been fine.
55:23
For me, 1134 is better. So if you're someone who knows instinctively that a
55:29
little bit of a higher cadence is going to be a benefit to you and a little bit of spinning, 1134.
55:35
And if you're going to do bike higher, that's probably the best you're going to get.
55:39
If you're like, I want to be sure, especially if you're someone who,
55:43
you know, you can accomplish this.
55:47
But you're sort of pushing the envelope. You can do it, but maybe it's your first time doing it.
55:52
Maybe you are in that over 50 and you're just, I haven't done a lot of climbing like this in a while.
55:57
You would want to make arrangements to certainly have your own bike and have
56:03
it set up properly with a really qualified mechanic at a really good bike shop
56:10
at home that's going to give you the gearing necessary.
56:15
It could be as simple as just that little more 36 in the back.
56:20
You could go crazy and have a dinner plate in the back and have an 1141.
56:26
I certainly don't think anybody is going to need, that's an extreme.
56:30
And people got to remember the bigger you go, the more weight penalty you're
56:34
getting. So it is a series of trade-offs.
56:37
I know enough to be dangerous when it comes to getting
56:40
past the 34 to the 36 and the 41 but
56:44
you definitely if you're someone considering a trip like this whether
56:47
it's with us or anybody else and if you want to go above a 34 if you think that's
56:51
necessary have somebody who you trust as a bike fitter a bike mechanic and a
56:57
shop that's going to be highly qualified to help you yeah i couldn't agree more
57:00
It's good to test out, obviously,
57:04
and see how you feel on a climb and play with that, you know,
57:10
the difference between an 11.30 or 11.34.
57:13
I do ultra cycling and there's a lot, a lot of climbing.
57:17
And I just changed because we did, my husband and I went to a race in Brazil
57:21
where the climbs were so steep, so hard.
57:25
I'd rather actually not as steep and long.
57:29
Yep, same with me. Sharp ones, but I have 1150.
57:34
Exactly. But if you're doing those ultra long distances, you've got to be able
57:39
to not torch yourself muscularly.
57:42
And that's why all these options do exist.
57:47
Can be very beneficial as an investment for some riders.
57:53
There is no reason to stubbornly wear as a badge of honor.
57:59
I'm only on an 1130 or I did this on an 1128 or something like that.
58:04
Pride doesn't come into this.
58:05
None of us are trying to win a stage race.
58:09
Yeah, you can't have that weight penalty if you're that elite level of a cyclist
58:13
and you're trying to stay on somebody's wheel. You're not going to use that.
58:17
For the rest of us, it's not about what's right, it's about what's effective.
58:21
Absolutely. And that was what was effective for me, especially my knee.
58:25
My knee was very thankful. I'm sure it was.
58:29
Yeah. Any piece of advice you would give any cyclist looking to improve their climbing?
58:36
Trust the work you have to put in in lactate clearing capacity.
58:42
And I use that terminology, even though it's not something that you hear a lot,
58:49
because that is the why behind zone two training.
58:53
Become a lactate clearing machine. And we all know what that feels like,
58:57
or at least a great percentage of us do.
59:00
When you have put in the work at zone two, you know what it feels like to go
59:06
hard and be able to recover. Oh,
59:07
you know, your heart rate comes down on a relative scale pretty quickly.
59:12
Your legs feel better quickly. It's that subjective how you feel on the road
59:18
that is the proof in the pudding when it comes to zone two training and being
59:23
able to clear lactate because you're just, you can go.
59:27
You can keep going. You know that as an ultra endurance cyclist,
59:31
you're getting over climbs, you're refueling, you're like, I can go again and
59:35
those sorts of things. So it makes such a difference.
59:39
So if I had to give one piece of advice, it's trust the science and become a
59:44
lactate clearing machine.
59:46
Awesome. Wise words. Thank you. We just have to do the work now. Yep, exactly.
59:53
And how can listeners follow you and find you both as a coach and how can they
1:00:00
find more information and join one of your camps?
1:00:03
Right. So they can find me in a number of different places, Instagram at climbwithjosh.
1:00:08
So you can message me there.
1:00:10
You can see I've got tons of videos on coaching and lactate clearing and everything else.
1:00:16
And obviously the information on our trips. I have a very basic website that's
1:00:20
live and up and running, climbwithjosh.com.
1:00:23
It has just a little quick spot on my coaching.
1:00:27
It's got squares that sort of give the basics for all the trips.
1:00:31
And then just the simplest of all forms to fill out to collect more information. We're all so busy.
1:00:38
Nobody has time to sift through an enormous website and oodles of detail.
1:00:44
Fill out the questionnaire. Give me your name, give me your email address and your WhatsApp number.
1:00:48
If you want my WhatsApp numbers on there, people are free to reach me from all
1:00:51
over the world. I do everything via WhatsApp.
1:00:53
We have a wonderful PDF put together on the over 50 week that gives a ton of
1:00:57
detail, including the climbs and including the days we're doing which climbs
1:01:01
and all the other details you could ever want to know.
1:01:04
And if you're game, give me the verbal, Josh, I'm in. We'll get you invoiced.
1:01:10
It is priced at a level that certainly it's
1:01:13
an investment but it's a manageable investment and
1:01:16
that's the beauty of the partnership that Richie and
1:01:19
I have created and now we're working with Saskia we
1:01:22
want this to be accessible to people and so that's
1:01:25
how you go about finding us and we'd love to hear from as many of you as possible
1:01:29
amazing I will put everything on the episode description and really excited
1:01:35
about this episode thank you so much for sharing because you know I think climbing
1:01:39
is something that you love or hate or most people have to learn to love.
1:01:44
Yeah. And I think if everyone listens to all the tips you shared here,
1:01:49
I think you can start having a good relationship with a mountain.
1:01:53
I agree. And I'm exhibit A. I had to learn to love it.
1:01:57
And now there is nothing I'd rather do than be going uphill and folks can get there.
1:02:03
I agree. Well, thank you so much, Josh. My pleasure. It was happy to be here, Juliana. Thank you.
1:02:10
And that's all for today's episode. I want to thank the listeners for tuning in.
1:02:15
Your support means everything. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider
1:02:19
following, leaving a review, and sharing it with your friends.
1:02:24
Music.