Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: Wendy Lemke

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Guest: Wendy Lemke · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:01
  Our guest today is Wendy Lemke, a licensed consulting and clinical psychologist with over thirty years of clinical experience. She graduated from St. Cloud State University in Minnesota with her master's degree in 1989 and worked for a nonprofit for seven years before establishing her own counseling and consulting practice. She is a sought after presenter for her engaging style and expertise in the fields of clinical hypnosis, ego state therapy, and trauma related disorders, and has consults around the globe. She is the co founder of Ego State Therapy North America, a North American representative to Ego State Therapy International, along with being a certified ESTNA and ESTI consultant and trainer.
• 1:51
  She is a fellow, a frequent hypnosis instructor, and an active member of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation She is an American Society of Clinical Hypnosis fellow, certified approved consultant, and former vice president. She is also an active member of the Minnesota Society of Clinical Hypnosis and has served on the board and various committees for both hypnosis organizations as well as teaching for each. She has been honored with four awards from the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis, two awards for publishing, a merit award, and a presidential award for her continued efforts to expand clinical hypnosis education to the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation. She was also awarded the Daniel P. Cohen Award, Outstanding Clinician Award in recognition for outstanding leadership in clinical practice, teaching, utilization of therapeutic hypnosis by the Minnesota Society of Clinical Hypnosis.
• 2:54
  She has published articles in the Journal of Trauma and Dissociation and the American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis and a chapter in a hypnosis book in German. She wrote and produced the documentary, You're Not Crazy and You're Inside the Inner World of Dissociative Identity Disorder, as well as self hypnosis recordings for sleep and relaxation. Welcome, Wendy Lemke.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: I remember meeting you at ISSTD. I'm trying to think when it was just, I think you had just won an award or
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: I think it was in Texas when I did the plenary.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was I I keep thinking that was just last year, but I think that was two years ago now.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: If you want to start by just I did read your introduction, your formal introduction. I've already done that. But if you want to introduce yourself just so that the audience can listeners can orient to the sound of your voice as we get started.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Sure. And, Emma, are you having, I assume you have mostly a clinical audience, or is it kind of a combination?
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: It is a pretty even mix. Oh, it is? Okay. Mine has so much lived experience in it. It's a pretty even mix.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: Okay. Great. Well, I'll start with I'm Wendy Lemke, and I'm a clinical and mostly now consulting psychologist working from Minnesota, mostly my RV, because then I can be wherever. But I I work in the areas of my passion that have developed over the years. So, I primarily work clinically or have worked clinically and now do a lot of consulting in the field of trauma and dissociation.
• 4:50
  And along with that, I'm quite passionate about the tools of clinical hypnosis, as well as ego state therapy and coming from a theoretical perspective that recognizes we all have multiplicity. So, utilize that perspective regardless of the clinical population I'm working with. But it has been a very effective model for conceptualizing and working with dissociative disorders.
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: I have so many questions and I'm so excited to talk to you today. How did you start learning about trauma and dissociation before I dig into some of those other exciting things?
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: That's an excellent question, you know, because as you know, Emma, probably most of us in this field didn't set out to be an expert on dissociative identity disorder. Actually, when I started, it was multiple personality disorder. So, that will tell you something about my age. But I, like many clinicians that I'm aware of, had little or no training in the field of dissociative disorders, or even, I guess I had more in the area of trauma in my graduate program, but I was working closely with the Central Minnesota Sexual Assault Center, which, by the way, they do lot of excellent work. And I was because of that work, kind of had a specialty while I was working with sexual trauma.
• 6:40
  And I was doing a group, facilitating a group of women who had survived sexual abuse in childhood. And we were on the week of honoring what you did to survive. And this wonderful, very intelligent woman who managed a company of several people, she was very successful, Was very open and honest with the group and said, well, she developed different parts of self, and she has this one for work and this one for and she had names and and shared information. And I was a little overwhelmed at the time. The other members in the group were not overwhelmed.
• 7:30
  They're like, well, this this is similar to how I do things. I don't do it this way or that way, but they really understood her. And I was it was my first inklinger window into the that that people dissociation is is much more common than we realize. And that woman wanted to work with me individually as well. And she taught me she really taught me on how to work with dissociative disorders.
• 7:59
  I thought at the time she probably had multiple personality disorder, but it turned out that it was probably more like what we would call now OSDD, otherwise specified dissociative disorder, because she had a lot of, at this point in her journey, a lot of awareness and ability. She had quite a cooperative and collaborative system. So, she would tell me who I needed to work with and what needed to happen. And she pretty much did her own therapy. But I got consultation and more training to work with her regularly, and she knew I was a rookie.
• 8:39
  And that's how it all started.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: I think there are so many of us that end up educating therapists and so many therapists that are not experts that if they can do relationship, can actually do really quality work. I so appreciate that story about your beginnings.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Thank you. Know, Emma, I, I I will I will tell people this. And when I teach, I when I teach, I I've I've had the privilege of having wonderful mentors and wonderful training. I I am not a great reader of books, but I've attended a lot of trainings and learned best that way.
• 9:24
  But I will still say the most of what I have learned is from my clients. And I believe really in the power of attuning to them and tailoring your work to each and every individual that sits in front of you because, you know, so much of our field in the clinical side has become protocols and scripts and procedures. And there isn't a one that fits for everybody. There's, you know, nuances of where people are at in treatment, how cooperative their system is, you know, what works one time for somebody isn't going to work at all and might actually destabilize someone else. So, really believe our clients have to teach us how to treat them and we have to really listen to our clients to learn.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: Considering all of this that you've just shared, and I think that's such a big deal when we are overly focused on models or techniques or things like that, instead of using them as tools, we forget that psychodynamic framework or that relational framework where we really need to work within relationship because that's where the wounds are. And therapists that have not been trained in that can sometimes get overwhelmed by not knowing what to do when it's a relationship issue or not knowing how to work with transference or countertransference instead of just being confused or overwhelmed by it.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Those are some very good points. And I think I have a colleague and a student of mine who we will say Cynthia Good is her name, and she's wonderful and does a lot of work with hypnosis, EMDR, and ego state therapy. And she said, ego state therapy is, she really likes the ego state therapy model because it's based more on principles than protocols. And I love that saying because principles guide our thinking and our therapeutic intentions, but we have to really utilize the relationship we have with the client.
• 11:56
  And when I say the client, I mean their system of self. Right? All of their parts, because if they have a real conflicted system, it's really important for us to develop relationships with the entire system. It's always important to do that. But we have to be really cautious about our language and respect the wisdom of each side.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. You mentioned the ego state right in the beginning, which I am excited to talk to you about for sure. But circling back to what you said earlier about it sort of normalizing multiplicity for everybody, could you explain that a little bit?
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I learned from the Watkins early in my career because I was getting training for that one particular client and expanding my learning in that area. I was working with her and I had become really fascinated about, like I said, she did most of her own work, but I was amazed at how working with the parts of the internal conflicts that she was experiencing and symptoms, physical symptoms as well as psychological symptoms. And I started realizing that a lot of my clients talked in parts language. You know, a part of me wants to do this and a part of me isn't so sure. And I started utilizing what I had been learning with that client with my more, you know, less traumatized clinical population with effectiveness.
• 13:59
  And I was trained in clinical hypnosis already, which, you know, that's a whole, you know, we can talk about that too. But, you know, I always say much of what we do in trauma is the undoing of clinical or undoing of self hypnosis. But anyways, so that model of working with PARTS on the maybe less conflicted side, I it's, I had the opportunity to hear the Watkins come to Minnesota through the Minnesota Society of Clinical Hypnosis, and they're the cofounders of the Ego State theory model. And in that model, it it is a model that recognizes the importance of all parts of self and has a lot of strategies and applications and ways that we work with the self. But, you know, part of the principles is that it's a relational model.
• 15:09
  You know, we have to develop relationships with all sides of parts. It's kind of like similar a little bit to working with family therapy. You know, you don't want to upset the teenagers, so you have to be very careful about the perspective that they come from. The parents come from a very different perspective with different experiences and different age and, you know, different life development states. And so, you know, if you're doing family therapy, you want to upset either side.
• 15:54
  You have to work with both sides and try to bridge the gap of I always say the relationship we develop with all the parts become a a model for how people develop those internal relationships within within the self.
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: That makes so much sense, and I really appreciate explanation. How would you explain to a survivor what we're talking about when we say ego state?
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. There's kind of a move rather than talking about an ego state, we might say a self state. Right? A self state, a part of the self. I sometimes will explain it even like it's an energy, you know, if we have many different energy or if we have different states, I might say, like, look at myself right now.
• 16:53
  I'm in my professional state. A little bit before we came on this meeting, I was in a grandmother mode because my daughter and my 17 old grandbaby were here. You know, and that's a very different, you know, it comes from a very different place. And so, one of the ways that I explain it and what differentiates maybe someone with DID is from someone with typical multiplicity or different self states is the boundaries between. And a lot of the applications have to do with the boundaries and what I call the wisdom of walls.
• 17:42
  Right? Because there's a lot of wisdom in the walls as well. And we have to be careful that we don't take down those walls inadvertently or too soon because, you know, they were there for a reason. The same walls that are protecting also can cause dysfunction or symptoms later on. So, to explain to someone, I use the it's an old model.
• 18:15
  It needs to be adapted. I've been working on that, but don't have it out yet. But the differentiation dissociation continuum, which is a very simplistic way that kind of shows it's there's the circle, these circles, and, you know, it shows, like, a, b, and c for the different states of South, and it shows various different walls. I think John Watkins would describe it as, you know, the walls it's like somebody with DID before the Berlin Wall came down. You couldn't get to the other side very easily.
• 18:55
  We didn't know everything that was going on on the other side, you know, and, you know, maybe less, you know, for folks who have more maybe typical multiplicity without the extreme conflict or trauma or dissociation, more permeable walls. You can go from you know, it's more like Iowa and Minnesota. You can go just drive across the border and you're there. You know? So there's there there isn't the the all the challenges that come with a real solid structure between different self states.
• 19:37
  And if I explain it, the other thing that's different besides the boundaries or walls is the types of ego states that develop over time. So, you know, if you were blessed without any trauma in your childhood, you might not have any child hood traumatized states. Right? But we still have different states of self. If, you know, I have no experience in music.
• 20:10
  You know, I have not developed a musical state of self, but or a musician or but so the different types of ego states we develop or self states we develop are are unique, and and there are many different variations of the boundaries or the walls between. And the other thing that differentiates us is the intensity of internal conflict between different states of self. You know, somebody with maybe with less trauma and less dissociation maybe isn't as internally conflicted. I've worked with a number of folks over the years with dissociative identity disorder who say it's like being at war with themselves. And we don't see that in, know, certainly we have internal conflicts, but they're different than the, and working out those internal conflicts is is very different from the the types of internal conflict we see with somebody with dissociative identity disorder.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: I think part of what I love about your work is how kinker one it feels with lived experience when we're talking about states, self states. Lowenstein says states of being. When we're talking about this experience of lacking awareness and access to myself and then recognizing what you said earlier about self hypnosis, which we'll get to, but how do you distinguish for clinicians or other folks, anybody, how do you distinguish between that kind of state experience and what we're talking about when we talk about trans?
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about this and I've shifted over the years. I've been doing clinical hypnosis as long as I've had that first client who I thought had DID. And that was, you know, basically in the beginning of my career. So, I was blessed with falling into my passions early, early on.
• 22:35
  And, you know, things have evolved with the field of hypnosis. And I believe the amount of trance states we go in and out of, or people go in and out of. And so, we like to do when I teach clinical hypnosis now, clinical hypnosis just means I'm teaching to clinical providers on trance and how to utilize clinical hypnosis for healing with intention. And so, people will always say, Oh, does it work? And I'm like, you know, yeah, but it's not what people think.
• 23:13
  You know, they're thinking entertainment hypnosis and they're using the capacity for transfer entertainment. And that looks very different. We all go in and out of trance states and people who dissociate are doing it a lot longer and a lot more often, almost so much that it becomes just an automatic response to stress, is to dissociate, to leave. And that leads to more and more dissociation and dissociative disorders.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: That's what we're talking about when we say folks with dissociative disorders are already in trance most of the time.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. And the importance I think it's so important for everybody, whether you're going to use hypnosis or not, to understand the power of a trance state. And I I I'm I'm really am I'm I'm more passionate about this now in educating the nonclinical population about trans. I'm going to do a I committed because people on my Facebook have been interested in.
• 24:30
  And I committed saying I will do a free hour presentation sometime just so people can listen to about the importance of understanding trance. Partially, it's because of trance logic. I'll say, we all go in and out of trance, and I look at trance as a state of being really absorbed and focused attention. So, you know, when we teach people how to intentionally go into trance, we narrow their focus. We facilitate absorption.
• 25:12
  But that happens in our world all the time. People go into trance when they watch a good movie or they read a good book. Right? And, you know, that's what they're doing for pleasure or maybe, you know, maybe they're learning something. They get very focused and absorbed.
• 25:32
  People go into trance playing video games. People go into trance with spiritual practices like prayer. People go into trance when they perform, when they dance, when they play the clarinet, or when they sing. People go into trance when they drive. We call that highway hypnosis.
• 26:00
  So, in that state, knowing you go in and out of trance and people go into trance, this is what really concerns me, people go into trance when they go on social media. I've done it, You know, other people have done it. Pretty soon you lose track of time. All of a sudden you've been watching reels and two hours has went by. We call that time distortion.
• 26:23
  It's hypnotic phenomena. And the other hypnotic phenomena I want people to know about is trans logic. When you are in trance, you are subject to trans logic. And trans logic means you are more responsive to suggestion. So, what that means is if somebody wants to sell you something and you're in a trance state, you are more responsive to to what they're if they get you in a focused attention, absorb you in something, and then try to sell you something, you you don't critically evaluate.
• 27:09
  Do I really need this? Is it good? Should I look at the reviews? Am I just believing what they say? Right?
• 27:18
  And that's it. You know, I challenge people, you know, find people who buy things without really putting much thought into it. And quite often it's because they were in a trance state. Right? Or they bought something on the Internet that was, you know, they got pulled into the little video or the little whatever and and they're absorbed and now they find themselves purchasing it.
• 27:45
  I would say pause and research it somewhere else, you know, because we don't critically evaluate with the prefrontal cortex. That's conscious effort. And, you know, when we're working from a trance state, we're focused on unconscious experiences and not really putting forth that critical effort. So, that's why clinical hypnosis works, right? Because we facilitate trance for intentional healing.
• 28:21
  But we want to give suggestions that are in our client's best interest for what they want in treatment, for what their system will allow, for the pace it will allow. So, we have to speak to the system and our suggestions should speak to the system itself, not just one side. So, if you look at that with the young people, I'm always telling people, you know, even when I do hypnosis and therapy, listen to what is in your best interest. But again, if you have a system of self, it has to be in the best interest of your system. And disregard anything that isn't.
• 29:06
  Right? Disregard any suggestion that isn't. And I I think we have to you know, people aren't critically evaluating or using critical thinking in the way that they used to. People are going on social media and just believing whatever they see, you know, because they're absorbed. It's not totally, you know, I don't want to say it's I don't know how to describe that, but they're not aware that you get in a state of focused attention and absorption and you take in information as if it's valid.
• 29:43
  Now, if that information is in your best interest, it's useful to you, and it's important to your healing, that's great. But trance states can be destructive if it's not in your best interest. Did you trust where it came from? Whether I'm talking about a family system or some other kind of system, you know. And so, I look at folks with dissociative disorders, and they have a very conflicted system.
• 30:18
  And they are literally getting suggestions from other parts of self all throughout their life in trance states. So, when I say we have to undo, sometimes that language, and it's been subject to trans logic. So, there might be a part that is really stuck in something that really makes sense, and it's been a, I call it, what a fixed suggestion, right, that is at play that is no longer useful in 2025, but it became neurologically wired from repetition and dissociation and a trance state, you know, something that was heard over over and over again.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: The the listeners really recently, one thing that we've talked about on the podcast a lot is religious trauma. And so in that example, we've been really explicit about the difference between trans logic and critical thinking. And that's just obviously one application of it. But I think they understand it even in that context.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I have a strategy. I call it poking holes. Right? And, you know, and I we can anybody can do this, whether it's with your with with a a message that you get in inside in your head, you know, and it's really kind of if there's something that is really not useful or I'm working with somebody and they grew up with a really critical parent, you know?
• 32:03
  And, you know, we all develop our voices from our caregivers, private speech. There's a developmental psychologist by the name of Vygotsky, and he talked about private speech. And he believed people who developed this internal private speech to help them regulate their emotions and behavior, really it helped promote good social behavior, pro social behavior, and it helped them excel. Now, Vygotsky studied mostly healthy people in human development, and that would be true. But if you grew up with caregivers or language that was not very helpful and was really critical or even abusive, then these become your internal voices of guiding you to regulate your emotions and and behavior.
• 33:02
  And and and so the people that shape our voices influence how we, you know, think, manage our emotions, and and and also our behaviors. So if there's something, you know, a client presents and say, you know, oh, I have to do this, and it seems really not helpful to them and keeps other parts scared or stuck. I'll say, well, you know, who taught you that? Where did you learn you have to punish yourself for such and such? Or where did who taught you that?
• 33:44
  And they'll be like, well, you know, this is what I learned in the home grew up with and the caregivers that were around. I'm like, well, what do you think of those caregivers? Well, I don't trust them. They were mean. They were this.
• 33:58
  I'll be like, well, so if you don't trust them, why are you still trusting the language of what they say? Yes. And then there's like a kind of moment. I'm like, Like, language would you want to listen to instead? Who do trust now?
• 34:22
  Right? Because in those trance states, they just took and of course, we're going to take our caregiver. We don't have any other experience. We're going to take it as word. Right?
• 34:34
  And we don't critically evaluate the message or what we're taking in, it becomes then our internal voice. And then we say that same horrific thing to ourself from another part who's just really trying to help us regulate our emotions and behavior, but they're doing it in a way that was based on a really destructive, you know, message. So, we have to kind of poke holes on where we learned what we learned, whether it was from inappropriate messages in a family system or in a religion that was not useful and kind to us or whatever other kind of message we might have if it was from a bully on the playground. Right? Why do we still trust that language that we've internalized when we didn't trust the people it came from?
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: It's a reclamation of our own power and really restorative developmentally, because as adults, we can use critical thinking and evaluate the information we're getting or seeking out or what we're thinking or telling ourselves differently than we could as children. So there's so many different aspects to this that really becomes exponential healing.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. When we talk about trance, that's why we sometimes facilitate that absorption, that poking holes thread that I was talking about, leads to a disruption of that destructive trance. Why are you still listening? That suggestion is the disruption. Why are you still listening to that language if don't trust the sources?
• 36:34
  And then the other question might be, was the person who gave you this suggestion, was this in their best interest, or was it in your best interest?
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Because so many times people are still trying to perpetuate, or oneself state is trying to perpetuate a message that is neurologically wired and there and repeated over years. So it becomes now an internal message. But it was created from someone else's best interest.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: I think listeners with lived experience talk about this when they email the podcast. They talk about it in these moments of like an kind of moment, but something bigger than that where they'll say so many emails where like, you said this thing, and it was like, woke up. What we're talking about is coming out of that trance and getting grounded in a way that is about the critical thinking of, Oh, there are other options on the table. Not from me saying that anyone's healing has to look the same as mine or saying this therapy is the way to do therapy. But there are options on the table evaluating what is helpful, what is useful, like you said.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. Exactly. And really thinking about, you know, the experience comes from one part of the self realizing, oh, I maybe got this information from somewhere other that didn't understand my whole system. Yes.
• 38:25
  Or didn't have my best interest at heart, but had their own agenda. Right? So, I think really, you know, my hope is some of your listeners are going to have an experience in thinking about TransLogic and really being careful what they take in from I tell my clients, don't just automatically trust what I say or what this book says or what this, you know, media influencer says or what, you know, your friend says. Like, really evaluate it and say, is it okay with myself and what I believe? And the problem with that is a lot of people are not consciously aware of their own belief systems.
• 39:20
  They have to really sit and listen to their body or, you know, is it okay with your whole self? Take a moment and really think and feel and connect enough. People with DID aren't often connected enough to feel because they might not even be aware of other parts. So, how can they know what those other parts of self think? And sometimes they can feel it, though.
• 39:51
  They can feel anxiety welling up. Well, maybe there's some wisdom in that anxiety. Maybe that anxiety is saying we need to go a little slower. Maybe there's, you know, so we just want to teach people how to listen to them, to their own system, you know? And that's for everybody with DID or not, you know?
• 40:13
  Because all of us are influenced by our unconscious or unconscious parts of self.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: I think that piece that you just said is so important about listening to our own selves because those of us who have been through any kind of complex trauma will be conditioned or even part of the translogic becomes attuning to our environment for safety instead of attuning to ourselves, which is a limbic system place, not a frontal cortex place. And so one thing I see even in the peer support groups or online is some of those that have such dramatic or even damaging experiences. And one thing that we're so careful with in systems speak is making sure that we are not offering advice or fixing, that we're being present with ourselves and regulating ourselves. And we talk about it so much because what I've seen happen, even when we mean well and even when people are trying to be safe with each other, if folks are in trance, they are not using critical thinking, and no one else can say what is good for your system. And
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: and oh, Emma. Yeah. And and and on top of that, if they're dysregulated, they can't critically think. So if they're dysregulated or they're in trance and, know, I want the world to understand this, you know, because part of that is what creates the division in this in in the in the country. Right?
• 42:03
  It's it's not it it comes from division within our own selves as well as not recognizing and seeking to understand. I sometimes think ego state therapists would make the best politicians because we don't blame the other side. We seek to really understand where this part is coming from. And then we seek to kind of build a bridge between the part of self over here that's that hates the part of self over here because we we work on developing relationship with both sides. I mean, that's what we have to do when we work with with people that are at war with themselves.
• 42:51
  You know? So it's it's it takes patience and understanding and and us to step outside of our own agenda and and really be neutral in working with the system of self, right, and really trying to understand and build bridges. You know? So, yeah, we can't we can't be taking in information in in adequate ways when we're dysregulated or when we're in trance. So be careful what you take in when you read a book or you go on social media or you know, because we're we respond to suggestion.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: It's it's so heartbreaking sometimes because when everyone has such tragic stories, of course, we want to support them or help them, but then we get right back into that triangle and the intersection between that triangle and trance, I think we could talk about for hours.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, right. And keep in mind, trance can be positive or it can be destructive. It's what is said and who's saying it. Right? What suggestions are are you taking in, and are they helpful and useful to your whole self and your well-being and your way of regulating?
• 44:19
  Or are they fostering something that's not internally helpful? All kinds of psychological disorders. I see this with OCD, you know, someone who takes in a message and repeats it often and often, and they're in a state of absorption and focused attention with their, you know, if it's hoarding and their stuff. Right? You know, whatever suggestions they're giving themselves, they are are cemented differently than if you are in a, you know, critically thinking and attached to that.
• 45:02
  So we just have to we have to just be careful, you know, with what we take in. And is it useful? And what would we like to take in instead? You know? How can we shift our own internal language?
• 45:17
  And we have to do that repetitively to actually make the shift. Right? So what would be useful? What do what do parts wanna hear instead? And and are the parts all on board with with learning a new language?
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: When we have been talking, I don't know, maybe the last six months on the podcast about decolonizing therapy and oppression in different ways. And one thing that you just said that really reminded me is when we're confused when something comes between us and our values When we re center on our self and our values and our system and our bodies, we get so much more clarity because we're more awake and we're being congruent to that rather than these intrusions of other suggestions. And when you said about trans being healthy, even healthy examples of that being when we are doing with each other rather than doing to or doing for each other.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, I think what you said, you know, connection and relationships heal. Right? So it's healthy to strive to strive for connection. But we want connections that are helpful and healing to us.
• 46:42
  Right? Because so many strive for connection, and we we know people have bad experiences or and and there are there are good experiences too with with social media, and it can be a wonderful source of connection. But there's a vulnerability for folks who are in states of trance often, people who who, you know, are hours on video games. Right? If they're so absorbed and they're taking in information in those very alert states, they take that information in in a different way.
• 47:22
  And they can't process it critically in the way that might be healthy for them. Now, if it's good information and it's helpful, but if it's information that perpetuates something that is not going to be helpful, then we have to be more careful for it. Because people just want connection. People are desperate for connection. And, like, quite often, they reach to social media for connection or groups on social media.
• 47:54
  And it can be helpful in some ways, but there's really a big vulnerability because you don't know who you're connecting with. You don't know what fed them. You know, you don't know if they're giving you accurate information.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: And one thing that we're doing in systems speak is reading through Laura Brown's book, Not the Price for Admission. So that would be just putting it in language that would be a healthy connection when we're not having to cost like the cost is not ourselves.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. Or the cost of part of yourself. Yes. Because sometimes it's some parts want this connection so desperately that they ignore what that means to another part of themselves.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. And that's the piece that we need awareness of ourselves and our systems and our bodies to be able to even notice is happening.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Because a lot of times then that, you know, a lot of, you know, anger gets projected out here, or anger that we have towards another part of self might be directed to that part of self. And it just continues to perpetuate that internal warfare. And if you have internal warfare in here, it's going to create problems out here as well.
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Before you go, is there anything else you would share with clinicians about how to get hypnosis training? All of the classes I teach for ISSTD or anywhere else, I say if you're working with dissociative folks, you need at least a level one, even if you're not going to use it as clinical hypnosis, but just to understand trans. Where can people train you or anywhere at all?
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Emma, that's a great and keep in mind, the trainings clinicians have, and I know we train clinicians, right? If you are somebody who wants to take hypnosis and you have a lot you to utilize it for healing and help, please make sure you research who you're going to be getting suggestions from. Because that's what's happening. You're going to
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: be
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: getting utilizing hypnosis, and it can be a wonderful tool that you use for yourself if it is in your best interest. And, you know, there is so, I would recommend you get if you are going to seek treatment, make sure that that therapist has had training for clinical healthcare providers. So, clinical training. The gold standard, in my opinion, is the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis approved training. They only educate clinical healthcare providers.
• 51:02
  And because trance is powerful, and we want to utilize. We might educate others on understanding the power of trans, but to facilitate hypnosis and use it with intention in a clinical setting for clinical issues. Make sure you have a clinical healthcare provider that you're working with to use hypnosis. If you want training, then consider make sure you get like ASH approved training, training that is for healthcare providers. ISSTD offers level one ASH approved training.
• 51:38
  I offer hypnosis training that is ASH approved training. I want that stamp on the training that I provide because I think that clinical differentiation is important. There's all kinds of components societies of the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis that also offer ASH approved training. And then ASH, you know, offers a level one training too. So, yeah, there's a number of different places.
• 52:08
  If you're interested, can see training opportunities on my website for hypnosis or the ones I have. ASH has a website. I think it's ash.net. And you can look for training opportunities there as well.
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: I'm so glad you said all the words for ASH because I don't know that I could have gotten them right. I just know, please get ASH training.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: Anything else you would want to share with or for folks with lived experience?
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: Be kind to yourself and patient and and please seek you know, make sure you seek adequate help and find a therapist and and and get in touch with your parts so that your parts or at least the parts that can help the therapist understand and how to work with you. You know, a lot of therapists don't have the training, but you can be their teachers. I've learned the most from my clients, you know, and it is important that you're working with a therapist that wants to learn from you.
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, so good. So good. Anything else you wanted to say that we did not get to?
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: I think that's everything. I mean, it's not everything, but it's a lot.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I really, really truly appreciate you joining us today.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, good. I get, you know, often winded in my without, you know, with my ADHD, without slides, I get like pretty like I can just talk. There's so much information in the trance states, you know, I worry about the vulnerability of people.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: It's a lot. I've really seen, even in just the survivor community, people just really struggling because of not realizing what they were getting sucked into, as opposed to finding a place where you can rest and learn and connect and grow like whatever is happening for yourself and in your therapy, which is different than someone saying this is what you need or what will fix you or That's a really big thing because when we have dissociated from what happened and have to sort of go do that memory work or memory time stuff of, Oh, now I'm feeling all the things. And so again, it gets worse before it gets better. But that's part of the process in moving towards better. That's not the same as drowning or identifying with this is how sick I am for always.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I know. Because we always focus on where we want to be other than where we're at. But I wanna thank you, Emma, for all you do for this community.
• 55:08
  I'm just touched and inspired. And, you know, I I remember because, you know, I'm I grew up in this field early on a long time ago because I'm old. But I remember I was so angry that there were not like, I I was a therapist that was discriminated against because of of, you know, oh, she's one of them. She sees this in everybody. Like, then you couldn't even be a therapist that worked with DID because you were you know?
• 55:43
  So we've come so far in the field to for people with lived experience. You know, I created a documentary in 2005 as a resource for those who were newly diagnosed at the time because there was nothing out there. Like, social media didn't really exist. Like, people were so isolated. And now there's so much information out there.
• 56:09
  Like, probably some that's really useful and helpful and some that's not. But but it's it's it's so great that people that are growing up with this now have have ways of connecting, hopefully with boundaries. But it's, you know, because of your courage to, share and come out. So at least we have more information and resources to people out there because of people like you.
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: Very kind, thank you. I'm truly honored that you spent time with us today. Thank you.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. Thank you.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: Okay, I will see you probably at a training.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Yeah. And send me the, you know, link or whatever when you have the podcast or or wherever it will be.
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: Okay. It will probably be next year when it airs because it's scheduled so far in advance. It's one way that I protect my own, like what's actually happening in therapy right now is I make sure there's like a six month delay. That's brilliant. Yeah.
• 57:31
  Yeah. Because I do share pretty vulnerably. It's still very boundary, but pretty vulnerably. And so I make sure there's a time delay so people aren't in my business while I'm trying to sort it out for the same thing, everything we just talked about.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. That is a great way to protect yourself and your self system. Yeah. Yeah.
• 57:54
  Yeah. Because then you can keep looking inside too and what's okay and what's not.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah. It's an ongoing consent issue, Oh,
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: Emma, us too, for everybody, Like, we have to keep checking inside. Where's this coming from? Like, have to do that too, and I don't have DID lived experience. But because we have a conscious mind and an unconscious mind, my unconscious mind guides more of what we do and hear and say. So, yeah.
• 58:27
  But thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: You so much. Bye.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: Bye.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing. One of the ways we practice this is in community together. The link for the community is in the show notes.
• 59:30
  We look forward to seeing you there while we practice caring for ourselves, caring for our family, and participating with those who also care for community. And remember, I'm just a human, not a therapist for the community, and not there for dating, and not there to be shiny happy. Less shiny, actually. I'm there to heal too, being human together. So, sometimes we'll see you there.