Latest / The Nerdy Photographer Podcast / 169 - Scrolling Ourselves Numb: Photography, Identity, and Social Media Addiction

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169 - Scrolling Ourselves Numb: Photography, Identity, and Social Media Addiction · The Nerdy Photographer Podcast

• 0:04
  Casey Fatchett: You need to put that down. Snug, snug. I'm
• 0:07
  serious. Oh, hey, welcome to the nerdy photographer podcast. I'm
• 0:11
  your host, Casey Fatchett, while I have your attention, be sure
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  to subscribe to the show. If you already subscribe, be sure to
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  leave a review, because they help a lot, especially when it
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  comes to reaching new listeners. So you know, maybe also suggest
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  a show to a friend while you're at it, Sue so that you can all
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  join us for lots of interesting conversations and adventures.
• 0:28
  Because, in addition to giving you interviews with amazing
• 0:31
  photographers and lots of informative and entertaining
• 0:34
  photography related stuff, I also go on adventures with the
• 0:37
  crew of the starship Fibonacci. Right now, I'm trying to get
• 0:40
  golden hour to turn off his personal communicator. Snug,
• 0:44
  snug, snug, snug, snug. You've been watching that
• 0:46
  interdimensional reality show on it for three cycles straight
• 0:49
  with no sleep on this episode of the show, I speak with
• 0:52
  photographer Anthony Rosner about fighting the algorithm as
• 0:55
  an artist and the dangers of social media addiction all that
• 0:59
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• 3:55
  Hello and welcome to the nerdy photographer podcast. I'm your
• 3:57
  host. Casey Fatchett. I'm here today with photographer,
• 4:01
  videographer, Anthony Rosner, Anthony, I'm so glad we've
• 4:06
  finally been able to make this happen. Welcome to the show.
• 4:09
  Anthony Rosner: Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
• 4:10
  Casey Fatchett: Before we get started, we're gonna start off
• 4:13
  with the dice breaker, and it's a five, okay, worst photography
• 4:19
  advice you've ever received,
• 4:22
  Anthony Rosner: Best photography advice I've received that's,
• 4:30
  that's actually a tough one, because I can't, I can't, off
• 4:33
  the top of My head, think of terrible advice that I've
• 4:36
  received. I was thinking of maybe something like only shoot
• 4:47
  Sony or only shoot cannon. But I don't want to inflame your
• 4:52
  viewers.
• 4:52
  Casey Fatchett: Anybody, anybody says only anything is that's bad
• 4:55
  advice. Anything get into those like hyperbolic statements. I.
• 5:00
  Anthony Rosner: I guess you know, a lot of the bad advice
• 5:03
  I've seen comes from people giving more, like unsolicited
• 5:06
  advice. When you're not really, you don't really, sometimes you
• 5:11
  just want to post your photo and you don't want anyone to say
• 5:14
  anything. It's like, This is it? I've edited. Maybe I spent years
• 5:17
  trying to get there perfect edit. I'm done with it. I'm
• 5:19
  going to put it out there. And then somebody comes like, oh,
• 5:22
  well, do you know the exposure is not right? Or, you know,
• 5:24
  just, I think that that would be varying on where terrible advice
• 5:29
  comes from. Is advice you just don't want, right?
• 5:32
  Casey Fatchett: Oh, yeah. I mean, you didn't ask for it. You
• 5:35
  didn't want it. Like, that's one of those things that I like, do
• 5:39
  enjoy about some Reddit forums is that they have flares for
• 5:44
  posts that are just, like, I don't want any feedback. I'm
• 5:47
  just posting this. Or like, you know, feedback is welcome, or
• 5:50
  things like that. And it would be nice to have that on other
• 5:55
  social media platforms as well, like, without having to turn off
• 5:59
  comments entirely. You know, then it just feels like you
• 6:04
  know, who know what? Why did they turn off all the comments?
• 6:07
  I can tell you. Why? Because somebody was a jerk. Speaking of
• 6:12
  social media, that's going to be the topic of our conversation
• 6:15
  today. Anthony, how has social media changed the way that you
• 6:24
  think about creating visually both? I mean, this could be for
• 6:29
  better or for worse, like, what has how has social media shaped
• 6:33
  your eye for what you create?
• 6:39
  Anthony Rosner: Well, I guess, to really answer that, I kind of
• 6:44
  have to think about what my life was like before threads and
• 6:47
  after threads, because I feel like threads being released a
• 6:50
  couple of years ago, it was kind of like the turning point how I
• 6:54
  shaped what I posted, you know, so before threads, I'll just
• 6:59
  post my photos. I used to post them on Facebook back in the
• 7:02
  day, I tried to put them on Flickr. Didn't really get much
• 7:08
  feedback. Obviously, on Facebook, it's just your
• 7:10
  friends. There's not really any, think, any wider audience. And
• 7:14
  then I did Instagram for a bit, and again, it was mostly just
• 7:17
  bots and just random people talking. So it kind of killed
• 7:23
  any enthusiasm I had for posting photos. So I didn't really think
• 7:28
  too much about what I was posting. I kind of, I always
• 7:32
  have always like doing, like doing photography, and I did it,
• 7:35
  you know, been doing it for so long now, but I'd always felt
• 7:39
  like I didn't really have a place to share them. So when the
• 7:43
  threads came out, I was kind of basically, I think if you look
• 7:46
  at my bad job, so I like, 200,000 or something, like, I
• 7:49
  was really like, right? Pretty much as soon as it went live, I
• 7:52
  was ready to go. And I just, I just, kind of, like, started
• 7:56
  sharing my photos, and then people would respond to them,
• 7:58
  and I'm like, Okay, now maybe, maybe people do like my photos
• 8:02
  and do want to actually see them. So I just started posting
• 8:06
  more of them, and I kind of, like you kind of get to feel of
• 8:10
  what is working, what people are sort of responding to, and what
• 8:14
  they are. So I used to post a lot of street photography, and I
• 8:19
  used to post, like architecture stuff. And I'd realized that
• 8:24
  people didn't really respond to the photos, which I felt were
• 8:29
  better because they told more of a story, and you had to kind of
• 8:32
  think about them a lot more. And that kind of was more prevalent
• 8:37
  in my street street photos, more so than, say, like, just a nice
• 8:41
  photo of the Eiffel Tower, for example.
• 8:43
  Casey Fatchett: This is, yeah, this is this. I feel like this
• 8:47
  is a thing with, like, definitely a social media thing.
• 8:50
  Because, like, you're saying, like, there's, there's a people
• 8:55
  aren't necessarily scrolling through and looking to engage
• 9:00
  the image, and they're, they're like, so they will react more
• 9:03
  to, like, Oh, this is a beautiful photo of the Eiffel
• 9:08
  Tower. They're like, I don't know what to think of this next,
• 9:12
  yeah, and then I don't have to think about this. Photographers
• 9:14
  mostly like, I think will stop. Like, I do. I stop a lot. But
• 9:18
  like, this coming from this is different from how you know my
• 9:22
  beginnings in social media, like when social media first started
• 9:26
  coming out, because I've been doing this since before then,
• 9:30
  but I was doing it as a business, and so getting
• 9:34
  feedback from clients before social media existed was really
• 9:40
  helpful to me. And like, hearing what people said, and like,
• 9:43
  there's a difference between what I create for art and what I
• 9:46
  create for my clients in some instances, in some ways, yes,
• 9:50
  like, the what I do with my for my clients, in many ways, is
• 9:56
  reflected by my artistic taste and what I like. Like, but it's
• 10:02
  not exactly the same as what I would do given left to my own
• 10:04
  devices, but, and so knowing what they liked was very
• 10:09
  helpful. And so when I was posting stuff for my business,
• 10:12
  I'm like, Okay, I'm trying to find my client, as opposed to
• 10:15
  just anybody out there, as far as an audience. And then so that
• 10:20
  kind of, I think, helped me in the beginning of social media,
• 10:22
  like going, Okay, well, I know what my audience of clients
• 10:28
  wants, but when it came to, like, my personal work, which is
• 10:31
  more, what kind of the stuff that I post on Nerdy
• 10:34
  photographer stuff is like, this is just what I like to shoot.
• 10:39
  These are the things that, you know, I choose to do for me. And
• 10:42
  that's, again, same thing. So it's such a mixed bag. As far
• 10:46
  as, like, what you'll think, like, this is the best photo
• 10:49
  I've taken in a year. I can This is my favorite photo. And then
• 10:52
  it's like, crickets,
• 10:53
  Anthony Rosner: yeah, absolutely, I've had that, you
• 10:56
  know more. And then there's the photos that you don't think much
• 10:59
  of, and they, they just take off or got, you know, you don't know
• 11:02
  why. It's kind of like, what's captured people's attention?
• 11:08
  Just, yeah, it goes both ways, really, isn't it?
• 11:11
  Casey Fatchett: Well, do you feel pressure then to create
• 11:13
  work that will perform well after you, like, see, like, oh,
• 11:17
  this did well, this type of photo, people really reacted to
• 11:21
  do you then feel pressure to try to create more work that will
• 11:25
  perform well? Or do you? Would you rather create things that
• 11:30
  speak to you personally, as opposed to trying to like, get
• 11:35
  likes and shares and etc?
• 11:37
  Anthony Rosner: I think it's a tough one, because as much as
• 11:43
  likes shares, follows don't really matter, unless you're
• 11:47
  doing it professionally on social media, you still can't
• 11:52
  help yourself but want them. And you know it feels good somebody
• 11:58
  likes your photo, and then if 100 people like your photo and
• 11:59
  1000 people like your photo, you know it feels really good. You
• 11:59
  know you obviously, the more people you track, the kind of,
• 12:03
  the weird sort of comments you start getting, which is not
• 12:08
  always, always good, but in terms of pressure, I would say,
• 12:15
  like once, if I've had a photo that's done really well, it's
• 12:20
  got like, 1000 or 2000 likes or something, and then you post
• 12:23
  another one which kind of gets crickets, or, you know, even if
• 12:28
  it's just a small amount, you know, 10 to 50 likes, or
• 12:31
  whatever it's kind of, you're trying to figure out what you
• 12:38
  might have done differently. But at the same time, I think it's
• 12:42
  important to realize that still tend to, you know, these small
• 12:46
  amounts of people still engaged with your content, regardless if
• 12:50
  it's a big viral photo or not, because you might get 10 really
• 12:56
  solid comments about your photo where it's touched people or
• 12:59
  it's kind of spoken to them in a way that maybe a viral photo,
• 13:03
  like I said, a nice photo, the Eiffel Tower. People just say,
• 13:06
  nice photo, yeah, and move on. But, you know, like a thoughtful
• 13:10
  photo of maybe, you know, photo I took was off. It was of an
• 13:15
  impersonator doing Charlie Chaplin, and I'd seen him
• 13:19
  earlier in a day, and he was kind of, you know, joking around
• 13:22
  your crowds, like laughing around. And then afterwards, a
• 13:26
  bit later on, I saw him after his set, and he was kind of,
• 13:28
  like winding down. And he looked really kind of deep in thought,
• 13:34
  almost melancholic, you know, almost trying to contemplating
• 13:38
  life, almost. And so that photo, whilst it wasn't really a big
• 13:43
  vowel hitter, it still resonates with people in a much deeper
• 13:48
  level, because they could sort of see themselves in this
• 13:50
  character, you know, he's got the clown face on, but he looks
• 13:54
  sad. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. They could
• 13:57
  also relate to that with, you know, famous people who you
• 14:01
  know. A lot of people mentioned it reminds them of like Robin
• 14:03
  Williams, you know, being the comedian who you know. And so
• 14:11
  there's pressure, in a sense, to keep up the momentum. But at the
• 14:14
  same time, I kind of try to step my mind away from that. Kind of
• 14:18
  just acknowledge the fact that photos touch people in different
• 14:24
  ways, and sometimes people just want a nice photo, or sometimes
• 14:26
  people want to stop and think and, you know, reflect.
• 14:30
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, everybody has a different everybody's
• 14:33
  coming to it from a different point of view. Like, some people
• 14:37
  come to social media just to, kind of like, forget about
• 14:39
  everything else. Some people are looking for inspiration. Some
• 14:43
  people are looking to have a conversation. There's a lot of
• 14:46
  different things going on, and I've seen the picture that
• 14:48
  you're you're talking about, and, yeah, it has that, that
• 14:52
  melancholic sense to it. And some people are probably like,
• 14:56
  like you're saying. You're people who are interacting. With
• 15:00
  it are having a deeper connection than just seeing,
• 15:02
  like, Ooh, pretty lights or whatever, like, just thinking
• 15:06
  like, Oh, that's nice. Like, move on to next thing.
• 15:12
  Anthony Rosner: That's probably why the all the, you know, AI
• 15:15
  generated pretty images do so well, because they just
• 15:19
  instantly, you get in that instantly, Oh, wow. Look,
• 15:22
  there's 12 rainbows. Wow. It's a natural phenomenon.
• 15:27
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah. And people like, I think that there's, I'm
• 15:32
  that's a topic for a whole other conversation. Just like looking
• 15:36
  at the slop that goes out there. Like, think it's a real photo.
• 15:41
  And I'm just like, how can you look at that? As a human being?
• 15:45
  Think this is real? And it's like, people posting, I don't
• 15:49
  know, Facebook, yeah, they're holiday photos of them like that
• 15:54
  are obviously like, you know, this is not this like, this is
• 15:58
  not the person that I know. Like, I know you. I've met you
• 16:00
  in person this, if you know this person, like, you know that is
• 16:03
  not what they really look like in real life. And you're just
• 16:08
  kind of like, okay, this is a it's almost like The Matrix.
• 16:11
  Yeah, it is this, like what they call in the matrix, residual
• 16:11
  self image. It's like what you want yourself to look like, like
• 16:11
  these people posting pictures, and then you'll have something
• 16:12
  like, Oh, what a great photo shoot you did with your family
• 16:18
  or whatever. And I'm like, whatever. And I'm like, they're
• 16:23
  like, Oh, thanks. It's okay. Like, you didn't do a photo
• 16:26
  shoot with your family. You're just like, like, you're, you're
• 16:29
  creating this sort of fantasy image of yourself out there. But
• 16:32
  I think that that's also for the same reason, like you're talking
• 16:35
  about, like, you know, like, when you get the likes, whether
• 16:38
  you're a photographer posting your photo that you like, or
• 16:41
  you're someone who's posting AI images of yourself to get
• 16:46
  attention like they want. They want to see those likes because
• 16:50
  they get that dopamine hit, because they probably did one,
• 16:53
  they probably just, like, played around with it one time, and
• 16:55
  people were like, Oh, you look so pretty where it wasn't really
• 16:58
  obviously AI. And somebody's like, Oh, you look so pretty. Or
• 16:58
  you look great like it because they're like, Huh? All right,
• 17:01
  I'm gonna do this more like, I'm gonna like, like, I can, you
• 17:06
  know, fool people into thinking that this is, you know, a real
• 17:11
  thing, and get that rush, yeah.
• 17:16
  Anthony Rosner: I mean, like, I was thinking about this a few
• 17:19
  months ago. There was an aurora all over Europe, and, you know,
• 17:23
  the US and stuff. And in the UK, it was cloudy. There was, you
• 17:28
  know, there was no way of seeing it, especially in London. And
• 17:32
  this, this image of Stonehenge with the Aurora saying it was,
• 17:35
  it was taken, and it's just, it was cloudy. Nobody could have
• 17:39
  possibly seen it, but it had like, 20,000 plus likes. I'm
• 17:42
  just like, really guys, this is not real. This is not real. It
• 17:45
  didn't happen. Like, why are you so mad? Was it when you point it
• 17:53
  out? Why are you mad? Just enjoy it, like, because it's not real,
• 17:59
  because it didn't happen. And maybe it was real, it was real,
• 18:04
  I was like, and you just wasn't seeing it? Like, no, I saw the
• 18:06
  weather forecast. It was cloudy. Pretty sure I live here, like, I
• 18:08
  had the same thing, like, where somebody was, like, posting it,
• 18:11
  like, over New York City. Like, I posted in like, you can't a
• 18:15
  you can't see the stars over New York City. Like, there's too
• 18:20
  much light pollution. So like, showing this picture of like the
• 18:24
  skyline with like the Aurora Borealis over the skyline,
• 18:28
  you're not going to see it. It's not not happening, happening at
• 18:31
  all. So, yeah, oh, where do you have to be so negative? This is
• 18:38
  not real, that's why.
• 18:39
  Casey Fatchett: when somebody likes your photo, and you feel
• 18:46
  good when you know, 100 people like your photo, and then when
• 18:54
  the 1000 people like your photo, and then you're like, oh, like,
• 18:59
  this is Great. This is because I will say, am I supposed to? I
• 19:03
  posted a reel last year that got like 3 million views and like
• 19:07
  100,000 likes, and I was just like, like, just like, I felt I
• 19:12
  was able to, you know, not get a big head about it, but like it,
• 19:18
  the feeling of it is, is powerful. It's a, it's a, it's a
• 19:23
  very, you can see why people can get addicted to it. You feel
• 19:28
  like you've ever, been kind of addicted to the rush of
• 19:33
  somebody's people, getting that validation from people on social
• 19:39
  media.
• 19:40
  Anthony Rosner: Yeah. I mean, for me, so the first time I went
• 19:48
  viral properly was when I did this sort of documentary film,
• 19:55
  which was about gaming addiction. It was kind of a sort
• 19:58
  of biographical. Like of you know that I made myself, it was
• 20:02
  about World of Warcraft, and this, this film kind of took
• 20:08
  off. It was, like, I released it in like, 2012 so a little bit
• 20:13
  while ago now, but it took off. It was on all, like the all the
• 20:18
  gaming websites. It was on several it was on TV, it was on
• 20:22
  radio. It was a different like film festivals, and I was
• 20:29
  addicted to that feeling of people Validating my film work
• 20:33
  and validating me as a filmmaker. And I had just kind
• 20:40
  of came out of uni at that time, and so I felt like the world was
• 20:44
  my oyster, almost, that people would be coming to me and
• 20:48
  offering me work and jobs, and like so many opportunities will
• 20:51
  come from this. I got a few little opportunities, but
• 20:55
  nothing like groundbreaking. And I got lots of like empty
• 20:58
  promises, type things where it sounds good on paper, but
• 21:01
  nothing actually materializes. And so actually, for a long
• 21:06
  time, I was chasing that feeling for a long time, and I made a
• 21:10
  sequel, made, like a, you know, Sequel to the film. It didn't do
• 21:13
  quite as well. I still got some opportunities from it, in terms
• 21:17
  of, like, film festivals and such, and it was also posted on,
• 21:20
  like a lot of websites as well, but it didn't quite have the
• 21:24
  same momentum as the first one, and then I kind of was stuck in
• 21:29
  sort of a cycle of trying to figure out, how can I recapture
• 21:33
  this feeling, and I'd say I'd spent almost 10 years trying to
• 21:36
  recapture that feeling, the kind of wanting to, you know, allow
• 21:43
  my film career to take off, which didn't really pan out. So
• 21:47
  when I came to Fred's and Instagram, I kind of already had
• 21:52
  this experience with going viral and kind of realizing the
• 21:58
  negative side of letting your, you know, your ambitions get get
• 22:03
  the better of you, in a sense, so kind of stops allowing that
• 22:10
  to get to me too much. If I went viral on Threads or Instagram,
• 22:15
  it's like, great people got my photo, you know, you know, it's
• 22:19
  just, it's this kind of a healthy mindset, I think, to
• 22:22
  sort of not, not get swept up in the emotions, not feel like you
• 22:26
  need to go crazy trying to capitalize on the on the
• 22:29
  situation, and otherwise you just burn yourself out and sort
• 22:32
  of not expect anything from it. Just, there's a lot of people
• 22:34
  who like your stuff, and it's great, hopefully then they like
• 22:38
  the next one as well. And yeah, I mean, I've been lucky. I've
• 22:42
  had a few rules to hit a few million just from posting my
• 22:47
  photos, and I've had a few photos take off as well.
• 22:50
  So yeah, such a it's, it's such a seductive thing. Listen, you
• 22:58
  talk about the the documentary. It's kind of funny, because,
• 23:02
  like, because, like, you were talking about gaming addiction,
• 23:05
  and then you, like, kind of got addicted to the social media
• 23:08
  validation over the gaming addiction, and it is such a
• 23:19
  you're always chasing that next like, oh, this felt so good. And
• 23:26
  when you when you kind of like, get sucked into that sort of
• 23:28
  feeling, and I've been in therapy for years about, like,
• 23:32
  things like, because it was one of the things that I dealt with
• 23:36
  was also, like, the non validation, like, yeah, when
• 23:39
  somebody would turn me down for a job, I took it really
• 23:41
  personally, yeah, and it took me a few years of really working on
• 23:47
  it to get to a point where I was just, like, people make their
• 23:50
  decisions for all sorts of reasons. It's not personal, like
• 23:53
  99% of the time, it is not you. And I got to a much healthier
• 23:57
  place because of that. But it's still, I still find myself
• 24:00
  occasionally getting like that. I want it really. Want this. I
• 24:03
  want this thing to do really well. I posted a reel because, a
• 24:09
  video that I had had kind of in my mind for like six years, that
• 24:14
  I posted last year, and it did okay. It was fine. It wasn't. It
• 24:19
  didn't like, do magic numbers. It wasn't like a total crickets
• 24:22
  or anything, but it was like something that I had. I was more
• 24:27
  happy that I did it, yeah, because I had been thinking
• 24:32
  about it for so long and hadn't done it. And I think that that
• 24:36
  was a really healthy thing for me, was that, oh, I accomplished
• 24:41
  this. Like, I finished this project. I started doing it six
• 24:44
  years ago. It took the day or two that it took to, like,
• 24:49
  finish the project, and, like, get it done, and, like, put it
• 24:52
  out in the world. Then it's out in the world and it does
• 24:55
  whatever it does., it's a it's that sort of, like, once you
• 24:58
  post things. You kind of have to let go of them in a way, and in
• 25:02
  the sense of emotionally, because that does take on a life
• 25:07
  of its own. Yeah, once it gets out there, whether, whether it
• 25:11
  goes viral, or nobody says anything, it's not really in
• 25:17
  your hands anymore. Once you've put it out there,
• 25:21
  and I sort of it takes that mental load off, this kind of
• 25:25
  just building up, you know, especially like when you're
• 25:28
  making films, you'd be thinking of ideas for so long, and you
• 25:35
  get so caught up in maybe, like procrastinating or putting it
• 25:39
  off, or just wondering if it's going to do well or not, and
• 25:42
  then you end up not making anything at all. Yeah, and it's
• 25:46
  just like, well, you could have made something, and then you
• 25:52
  could be thinking about the next thing, but instead, you're kind
• 25:54
  of stuck thinking about this one idea, or, you know, something.
• 25:56
  So, you know, I've kind of come to the realization that if you
• 25:59
  want to make something, you have to just go and make it and also
• 26:04
  put it out there and just move on to the next one with just a
• 26:07
  photo or video or whatever. You know, yeah.
• 26:10
  people be like, Why are you doing photos like this? Like,
• 26:10
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah. And the teens, there was, like, a period
• 26:10
  Casey Fatchett: I mean, I certainly am guilty of doing it
• 26:13
  like you handcuff yourself, just like, I'm not making anything.
• 26:18
  I'm not making the thing. I'm not doing the thing, like, I've
• 26:23
  got a note that I've, like, put on my that has been on my desk
• 26:28
  for the last two years. It just says, do the thing. Because,
• 26:32
  like, that was anxiety, you know, it's just like, you know,
• 26:37
  you overthink stuff. And I think that, I mean, we've kind of
• 26:42
  become, we're weeks get that sort of like, place of like,
• 26:46
  wanting the validation from other people that we don't
• 26:50
  validate ourselves. We don't like, like, Okay, this is the
• 26:55
  thing that I wanted to make, and this is why I wanted to make it.
• 26:56
  Anthony Rosner: yeah, I've definitely been guilty of
• 27:00
  This is why I want to create something, not just to like I
• 27:05
  didn't create it just to have 100 people online like it like,
• 27:05
  because it. Doesn't appeal to me. Yeah? Like it doesn't bother
• 27:10
  that's not why. That wasn't the the goal or the life of this
• 27:13
  me that I'm not getting attention for it because, you
• 27:14
  item. It was sometimes, you know, for me, it's I want to
• 27:17
  jumping
• 27:19
  make somebody I want to make at least one person laugh. Or
• 27:23
  sometimes it's like I wanted somebody to see, like, Look at
• 27:26
  in the aughts that where it was like, steroidal HDR, like these
• 27:28
  how beautiful this flower I saw. It was like, that's a big thing
• 27:33
  for me. It's like, I post my pictures of flowers because,
• 27:37
  like, I want other people to share that. Like, I don't care
• 27:42
  how many people see it. One person sees it, like, that's
• 27:47
  great. Like, lovely. It's out there in the world. That beauty
• 27:51
  is out there. I don't care if, like, 1000 people see it or 10
• 27:56
  people see it and but I think that the way that likes and
• 28:01
  shares and like getting that sort of like try and get people
• 28:05
  to interact with stuff, We've become so ennured to like this
• 28:10
  sort of the need to like, get people to share my stuff, share
• 28:15
  with other people, so that the algorithm picks it up, and so
• 28:20
  that more people see it. And so then you're not really like,
• 28:24
  You're not listening to your own creative voice anymore. I mean,
• 28:29
  you're not. You're you're letting that desire for it to be
• 28:34
  shared and like. This is why trends, trends are like, a thing
• 28:39
  that like, Okay, you're not making something you can there's
• 28:42
  know, it's not what I do, it's not what I make. But yeah, I
• 28:44
  a place for it. Like, I agree. I think humor is a great place for
• 28:49
  trends, like the jokes, social commentary, great. But I think
• 28:54
  when you come to actual creativity, when it comes to
• 28:58
  like, I think I've always told other photographers, don't chase
• 29:03
  trends, because especially if you're if you're a commercial
• 29:07
  photographer of some kind, like you're selling your portraits or
• 29:12
  events, or the trendiness of something is going to pass, and
• 29:17
  then you're going to be left trying to re establish your,
• 29:22
  like, who you are as an artist, once the next trend comes,
• 30:14
  think that sometimes that feeling to go along with the
• 30:17
  trend so that you can game the algorithm to get more attention,
• 30:23
  gets, like, in the way of people being creative.
• 30:27
  Anthony Rosner: Yeah, and you kind of you lose your voice as a
• 30:30
  creative when you start following trends, when you like,
• 30:33
  watch a YouTube tutorial and how somebody else edits their photo.
• 30:37
  I mean, it's good if you're like starting out and trying to
• 30:42
  understand why people edit in the way they do, and you're
• 30:45
  trying to follow, you know, just to learn the software. But when
• 30:50
  you're a bit more experienced, it kind of is a disservice to
• 30:55
  see how other people like edit their photos. I think, I mean, I
• 31:00
  enjoy the before, after, sort of trends you have on Instagram,
• 31:05
  and whether people share the before, the raw and the edited
• 31:08
  version, it's like, Okay, that's cool, but I don't necessarily
• 31:12
  want to emulate what they do, because then you kind of lose
• 31:16
  your own style. And I think for a photographer to have their own
• 31:22
  identity, it's important to kind of maintain their own, their own
• 31:27
  voice, you know? So, yeah, I agree. Like following trends is
• 31:33
  not, not always the best thing. Sometimes it works for
• 31:36
  engagement, and some people are happy with that. But yeah, I
• 31:41
  think being authentic and being authentic self is what, what
• 31:45
  kind of sets you apart, and you become the trend setter, rather
• 31:49
  than following the trends. Well, that's more important.
• 31:51
  Casey Fatchett: It's something that people have probably heard
• 31:53
  me say before on the show over the years, you can innovate,
• 31:58
  emulate or imitate and my thing is always like, Oh, if I see
• 32:04
  something somebody like, I love to sometimes I'll emulate a
• 32:10
  style. Because I'm like, Okay, this speaks to me anyway. This
• 32:13
  is something I want to do, and I see how somebody else did it,
• 32:16
  and I'm like, like, there's something I might do similar to
• 32:20
  that, but it's not exactly the same thing that they did, but
• 32:24
  also, like trying to aim for that innovation to be like. So,
• 32:27
  this is mine. This is totally mine. I might take something,
• 32:30
  and it's why I tell people, like, I don't go to workshops
• 32:34
  to, like, copy somebody's style, because I've been to workshops
• 32:39
  with, like, lots of photographers, like, big name
• 32:42
  photographers, stuff like, my thing that I love to do is go in
• 32:45
  and see how they work and how they troubleshoot and how they
• 32:51
  think and how they see this stuff. And it's like, not like,
• 32:55
  so I can create the exact image that they just did, because
• 32:59
  that's just copying whatever. But if I can go in there and sit
• 33:03
  there and they and listen to them and be like, This is what
• 33:06
  I'm thinking when I have, I've only got two minutes to set up
• 33:09
  my lights for this shoot, and this is what I this is what, how
• 33:12
  I break it down, and I'm going, Oh, okay, that we don't shoot
• 33:17
  the same style of photos, but that thought process really
• 33:21
  helps me. So it's that sort of thing that I think that people,
• 33:27
  when they're going and they're watching, you know, they're
• 33:30
  attending YouTube University, and they're watching how
• 33:34
  somebody edits, or they're watching how somebody, like
• 33:37
  lights, things that you can sit there and look at that and go,
• 33:41
  like, why are they doing that? Like, why did they choose to do
• 33:44
  it that way? And that's what they're like. The thing that
• 33:46
  gets me is when people say, like, what presets are you using
• 33:50
  to develop, like, processor photos? And it's like, when I
• 33:53
  always say, like, I created them, sell them. And I'm like, I
• 33:59
  do not sell the presets that I created for my business,
• 34:04
  because, yeah, they're for me. They work for me. It's just,
• 34:09
  this is my style. This is like, I don't do you. I would highly
• 34:13
  encourage you to create your own. I think that can be
• 34:16
  especially when you're starting out. They can be a good place to
• 34:18
  start from, get your feet and understand how they work. But
• 34:23
  like, then going through it and going, like, what do I really
• 34:30
  want my photo to look like, like you're talking about earlier,
• 34:32
  like, if watching somebody else edit in like, kind of trying to
• 34:32
  copy their editing style is doing a disservice to yourself.
• 34:36
  Yeah.
• 34:36
  Anthony Rosner: I mean, there's, there's those reels where they
• 34:39
  list all their settings in Lightroom for the photo they
• 34:42
  edited. And to me, that is kind of just not very interesting,
• 34:49
  because, you know, every photo is different. Every photo is
• 34:52
  taken differently, different lighting, different settings. No
• 34:56
  one rule applies to the norm. And I. So even with presets, you
• 35:01
  know, one preset for one type of photo just doesn't work across
• 35:05
  the board. And I agree, like i i find it far more interesting to
• 35:09
  know the reasons behind why they've taken a photo in the way
• 35:13
  they've taken it. I, you know, sometimes in my my posts on
• 35:16
  online, I try to explain that, because I find that that side of
• 35:20
  photography is really interesting. Kind of kind of,
• 35:23
  what is what? What cogs are going on in your head when
• 35:26
  you're trying to take a photo? For me, a lot of times it's, you
• 35:31
  know, you're trying to capture a certain thing, or sometimes I'm
• 35:35
  not thinking about it at all, just sort of so used to doing it
• 35:39
  that I just kind of mindlessly take a photo. But even in those
• 35:43
  short moments, there's a purpose behind it. You're kind of
• 35:45
  quickly figuring out how you'd line the photo up, getting the
• 35:49
  composition how you'd like it, get the settings quickly right.
• 35:52
  And there's always a thought process behind it. And I feel
• 35:56
  like once there's that, there's a point where you're kind of
• 35:59
  learning how each individual setting balances off the other
• 36:04
  one. But once you've gone past that point where you
• 36:08
  instinctively know, okay, my shutter speeds bit too low, I've
• 36:12
  got to increase that. Or, you know, the ISO is too low, and
• 36:17
  you kind of get to that point where you just know and but it's
• 36:21
  also interesting at the same point to sort of understand the
• 36:25
  why, why are you doing that? You know, I've done a lot of slow
• 36:30
  shutter stuff recently, and I haven't, I didn't have, like, an
• 36:32
  ND filter or anything, so I was doing it like broad daylight. So
• 36:35
  I was trying to figure out, how can I, you know, overcome these
• 36:39
  challenges, and it's the case of just getting aperture really,
• 36:42
  really small. It's not always the best result, but it's, you
• 36:48
  know, playing around with it so,
• 36:50
  Casey Fatchett: and that's because that's how we learn,
• 36:52
  yeah, that's how we discover. Like, I mean, you look at the
• 36:57
  class the classic painters, and I try to say, I'm not trying to
• 37:00
  say, I'm not trying to say that either of us is Van Gogh. I'm
• 37:02
  just saying that you, like, you know, do you think that Van Gogh
• 37:04
  never just, like, sat down and was like, I'm gonna try this
• 37:07
  today and see how that works. Yeah, it doesn't work. I'm gonna
• 37:11
  try something different. Like you said that you try different
• 37:13
  techniques, you then you find the techniques that work for you
• 37:19
  and you apply them in a way to your work that helps you create
• 37:24
  the images that you see in your head. That's That's what
• 37:28
  creating is. That's what being a creator is about. But I think
• 37:34
  that they sometimes we like we said this social media can
• 37:38
  really stump that, because it like we're sitting there going,
• 37:43
  like, Okay, I created this thing that is about me. I think the
• 37:46
  way you're talking about like, doing like, kind of this is what
• 37:48
  my thought process was. I've done some videos like that that
• 37:51
  actually some of them did really, really well, because it
• 37:55
  was like I was really doing like, a deep dive into this is
• 37:58
  what happened in this shot. This is what I was thinking and like,
• 38:01
  or this. This a thing that I regularly do, even though each
• 38:06
  one is different. You can call it like a trend for me. Like, I
• 38:10
  take this photo a lot, but it's just different, many, many, many
• 38:13
  different variations of it. But like, what my thought process is
• 38:16
  going into it, and those did really well, but it's like, when
• 38:19
  it doesn't do well, you're kind of like, Why didn't people
• 38:22
  connect with this as much as they did with the other one? And
• 38:25
  you're sort of like, is it the photo? Is it like, whatever is
• 38:27
  the reason? And he and I've found sometimes it helps to,
• 38:34
  like, just take a little break from social media for the day
• 38:37
  after that sort of thing happens, because I don't want to
• 38:41
  get sucked into hoping it performs well, like, I'll stick
• 38:47
  around for like an hour. Casey blows up. But then I sort of
• 38:51
  just like, You know what, I'm gonna take a break for this for
• 38:54
  a while. Do you ever find that you need to take a break from
• 38:57
  social media? Whether it's just like, I need to take an hour
• 39:00
  away from looking at the computer or my phone or
• 39:02
  whatever, or for like, extended periods of time, like days at a
• 39:06
  time, because I've certainly done that too.
• 39:09
  Anthony Rosner: Yeah, I mean, definitely taking breaks. It's
• 39:14
  usually been sometimes a day off, or, you know, I'll post
• 39:18
  once in the morning and then check it in the evening see if
• 39:22
  you know anyone like enjoyed my content, or I think it's
• 39:27
  important. I you know, when Fred started, I was just glued to my
• 39:30
  phone. I was replying to everything and posting all the
• 39:33
  time and trying to engage. Because I Fred's especially is a
• 39:39
  platform which rewards engagement. Like, if you're not
• 39:43
  engaging you do you feel like you're falling behind other
• 39:48
  people too, like other people's stuff, like, I got most a lot of
• 39:52
  growth out of threads from being like, commenting on other
• 39:56
  people's stuff. Then, like, people. The more they see you, I
• 40:01
  think it's just like, and they start seeing your stuff more and
• 40:04
  more. And then your own followers see more and more of
• 40:08
  your stuff. Because you're commenting on other people's
• 40:10
  things. They can see your comments. But also, just like,
• 40:13
  your stuff starts showing up. It's a weird algorithm thing. I
• 40:17
  think the thread says it's like, you just become more prevalent,
• 40:21
  the more active you are.
• 40:23
  Yeah, I mean it. I've definitely found that as well, where I've
• 40:27
  posted on other people's threads and, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.
• 40:40
  I've definitely found it where on threads, when you're engaging
• 40:45
  with other people, and your followers will see other
• 40:49
  people's posts and so forth. And Instagram feels like more of a
• 40:54
  platform where you can just post and ghost, almost where you just
• 40:58
  post your photo, you can just move on. But Fred's really
• 41:02
  rewards the engagement. It really rewards connecting and
• 41:05
  talking to people and like you really can. You can feel it like
• 41:09
  when, when you don't, if you you know, it's almost like you're
• 41:13
  not allowed to have a life, because if you go out for the
• 41:15
  evening, then suddenly you can tell that just the engagement
• 41:19
  drops big time, and it's then you're kind of wondering, well,
• 41:22
  what is this engagement really? What's the what's the benefit of
• 41:26
  the engagement? Obviously, it makes you feel good, and it's
• 41:29
  nice to connect with people. But ultimately, what is the goal
• 41:32
  here? Are you trying to chase some kind of business
• 41:34
  opportunity or trying to find clients? And most of the time
• 41:39
  they're not really. People want to be noticed and go viral and
• 41:43
  go famous, but that's not going to happen for most people. You
• 41:46
  know, the people who hit it big time is a small percentage of
• 41:49
  you know. So when you stop worrying about that, then you
• 41:53
  can just get on with your life, just post and not worry too much
• 41:59
  and engage when you've got time, but not let it sort of dictate
• 42:03
  all of your time. And you know, there are times where I'll
• 42:06
  definitely go on a binge on social media and just, you know,
• 42:09
  reply to lots of people and engage and stuff. And then other
• 42:12
  times I'll just be like, Okay, I'll post a photo. I'm going to
• 42:16
  check it like tonight or tomorrow, and just not stress
• 42:19
  about it if it's doing well or not, just that the algorithm do
• 42:23
  what it wants to do.
• 42:25
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think it's good to have almost a
• 42:28
  schedule, like, I'm gonna give myself 15 minutes in the morning
• 42:33
  or another 15 at night to, like, go and check this stuff, engage
• 42:36
  with people, do this stuff unless, like, something is
• 42:38
  really blowing up. Like, to limit that time, because if you
• 42:43
  don't limit it, you can find yourself slipping away and
• 42:46
  getting, like, losing more and more and more of your time. And
• 42:50
  it's funny, because you're talking about this, and I was, I
• 42:52
  was actually thinking about, there's another future guest on
• 42:56
  the show who, you know, I just see, like we started talking,
• 43:01
  you know, recently on threads, and now I see their posts, their
• 43:05
  comments all the time, yeah. And part of me is like, Wow, are
• 43:10
  they really that active? And then I'm looking at it going
• 43:13
  like, Oh no, this is from two days ago, or this is from it's
• 43:17
  like, but it just keeps feeding you that stuff. But you get the
• 43:19
  sense it's that sort of tricking your mind into thinking that
• 43:23
  they're constantly on, yeah, like they're they're constantly
• 43:28
  doing stuff, and that's why you're seeing more of their
• 43:30
  stuff, because they're always on, you know, on the platform.
• 43:33
  And you're like, Oh, well, I've got to be always on the platform
• 43:36
  if I want my followers to see my stuff, or to other new people to
• 43:40
  find me, and that's not the case. I mean, do you think that,
• 43:45
  what sort of boundaries do you put place like that for me?
• 43:47
  That's, that's what works for me. Like, my boundary is, is
• 43:50
  giving myself a set period of time each day to kind of like,
• 43:56
  okay, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna go outside of this time range,
• 44:00
  because I let it just sort of go and like that doesn't include,
• 44:03
  like, my sort of like end of the day, sort of brain rot, tick
• 44:08
  tock scrolling that this is just for entertainment and just to
• 44:12
  sort of like, decompress, but like for my work stuff or
• 44:17
  anything my creative work, I sort of like give myself. These
• 44:21
  are my windows to do this each day. And I might set stuff up. I
• 44:27
  might schedule something to like, post at another time, or
• 44:30
  post something at a different time than when I'm like, have my
• 44:33
  social media platform time. But I find that that helps me. Do
• 44:39
  you ever put boundaries on, like, the amount of time you
• 44:42
  spend, or like, what you like, to just kind of keep that, to
• 44:46
  keep a handle on it, so that it doesn't, like, end up taking
• 44:49
  over your life.
• 44:51
  Anthony Rosner: Yeah, I don't consciously have a boundary, so
• 44:56
  to speak. I i. Will wake up usually and check social media,
• 45:02
  and maybe I've edited a photo a few days before that, I've got
• 45:06
  ready to post, and I'll engage a bit, but then I'll just go about
• 45:13
  my day without really, maybe, I guess I put boundaries without
• 45:17
  really thinking about it too much. It's not like a conscious
• 45:20
  effort to sort of be like, Okay, this is the time I'm going to do
• 45:23
  stuff. And then, you know, usually if I've got like, a down
• 45:25
  period, like, if I'm kind of waiting for, you know, dinner to
• 45:29
  cook or something, then I'll just be like, Okay, I've got
• 45:31
  like, 15 minutes now of doing nothing, I might as well just
• 45:34
  engage with people and see, you know, reply to comments and
• 45:37
  stuff. I think sometimes when posts go absolutely crazy and
• 45:43
  they go viral, and then it's like, it's a bit of a chore to
• 45:47
  sort of keep on top of all the comments. So you kind of like, I
• 45:53
  feel obligated to reply to people, because first of all,
• 45:57
  they've they've spent time engaging my post, writing
• 46:00
  something nice. And, you know, it's nice to sort of just, you
• 46:03
  know, give that back. But then I kind of, like, I try to match
• 46:08
  that energy, so to speak, that's, I suppose that's a
• 46:11
  boundary in the sense, like, if somebody does emojis, I'll do an
• 46:14
  emoji back. If somebody says Nice, nice way to ask, I thank
• 46:17
  you. If somebody asks a question, I'll engage more
• 46:19
  because of kind of you know, and I find I end up just saying
• 46:25
  thank you a lot on social media. I'm sure if you go through my
• 46:27
  comments, as always, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
• 46:29
  There's nothing wrong with that. No, no, absolutely not.
• 46:33
  Casey Fatchett: And I certainly do it too. And I try to find
• 46:35
  creative ways to say thank you.
• 46:38
  Anthony Rosner: I work for a period where I tried to say
• 46:40
  thank you without saying thank you. Just like, oh, I very much
• 46:43
  appreciate that. Oh, thank you. Well, I didn't thank you. Just
• 46:48
  try and be creative in the ways you reply to people. But after a
• 46:52
  while, there's only, like, so many ways you can show
• 46:55
  appreciation before you kind of seem to be insane, I think. But,
• 47:02
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, it's, it's hard. It's, I mean, I do it too,
• 47:05
  and it's like a that obligation to write somebody back is sort
• 47:10
  of like, but you have to judge I like what you're saying. Like,
• 47:13
  match their energy. Because sometimes I'm like, What do I
• 47:17
  do? How long of a response? And this is maybe more to do with my
• 47:21
  anxiety written personality is that I'm like, what's an
• 47:27
  appropriate level of response to like them saying, Oh, this is a
• 47:31
  really beautiful photo. Okay, I guess I can do two emojis and a
• 47:38
  thanks. Then I'm going to do this. One is going to get a
• 47:41
  gift. Yeah, but yeah, because you can get overwhelmed. You can
• 47:47
  get overwhelmed by the number of
• 47:50
  Anthony Rosner: what helps me in those situations, as well as
• 47:52
  sometimes looking at other people and how they show
• 47:54
  appreciation to their followers, and kind of seeing what works
• 48:00
  and see, okay, this is what they're doing. Maybe I can use
• 48:06
  that same sort of tactic in what I'm doing, even though be
• 48:10
  authentic for me, but like you, want to find more creative ways
• 48:15
  of showing appreciation, which I think is quite difficult
• 48:17
  sometimes, because I but then I also at the same time, another
• 48:23
  thing I sort of think about is if you when you overthink about
• 48:28
  how you're using social media, then you think about how you
• 48:32
  view other people's social media and how they're using it. And
• 48:38
  you know, sometimes you overthink about the way you
• 48:41
  respond to people and show appreciation, but then you can
• 48:44
  look at other people on their posts, and maybe they don't do
• 48:48
  that tool, and it's like you get lost in your head a bit trying
• 48:52
  to get those connections, keep them, keep them rolling a bit
• 48:57
  when actually other people are not, kind of just dismissing it
• 49:01
  or not. You know, on Instagram, I comment a lot of people's
• 49:03
  photos, and then I don't think anything of it at all after
• 49:07
  I've, you know, and sometimes it'll come up in my feed, maybe,
• 49:11
  like, a day later, or, you know, a week later, or a year later,
• 49:15
  somebody's acknowledged by comment. Oh, yeah, I said that.
• 49:18
  But reality is, I've posted the comment, and then I've scrolled
• 49:21
  on and forgotten that I left a comment and just got on to next
• 49:25
  one. So it's like, okay, maybe I don't need to worry so much,
• 49:30
  because people have shown their appreciation. They don't
• 49:32
  necessarily need the feedback. But I have noticed that people
• 49:38
  almost expect the same in return, in a sense, whether they
• 49:43
  want it or not, but if they leave a comment on your post,
• 49:47
  they would probably want a comment on their post, and they
• 49:51
  want to have that sense of engagement and that sense of
• 49:55
  connection. And that's, yeah, it's like, I. I kind of just
• 50:03
  feel like they've made a real connection on social media,
• 50:07
  which is quite hard sometimes a lot of like, one ways,
• 50:10
  especially when people engage with bigger accounts, you can't
• 50:13
  always connect to them, and you kind of sometimes feel a bit
• 50:16
  left out. You know, maybe they've got their certain few
• 50:19
  that they always talk to, but they're the people are always in
• 50:21
  the algorithm, and it can be quite alienating in some ways,
• 50:28
  and also quite that communal side as well. It's kind of,
• 50:33
  yeah,
• 50:33
  Casey Fatchett: it's, it's sort of a weird thing, like when,
• 50:36
  like, you're mentioning, like, when you're like, interacting
• 50:38
  with bigger accounts, because it's certainly like you don't
• 50:43
  expect like, somebody with 100 200 300,000 followers to like,
• 50:52
  be answering every comment on their whatever. And when you do
• 50:58
  get somebody who like, like, I remember the first time, like,
• 51:03
  Joe McNally responded to like, a comment, because I had met him,
• 51:08
  like, six months before, and we've been talking about having
• 51:12
  come on the show, but it's like, so he kind of like, I'm sure he
• 51:19
  saw the handle, and was like, Oh, wait, whatever. Like, kind
• 51:19
  of, so there was a reason he kind of recognized it. But for
• 51:20
  me, it was like, you know, it was like, five minutes after I
• 51:24
  had posted the comment, and he responded, and I was like, what
• 51:28
  to me? It was just out of this, like they responded to me, like,
• 51:32
  it's sort of feeling and like, but yeah, it's hard, especially
• 51:35
  as your followership grows, to kind of manage expectations of
• 51:43
  your time, because I think that's one of the things that
• 51:47
  I've run into. It's like, you know, I will, I'll be at a shoot
• 51:51
  or something, and like, I'll post something in the morning,
• 51:54
  and, you know, before I go to the shoot, and then got a break
• 51:57
  at the shoot, and it's like, three hours later, and like, oh,
• 52:00
  there's like, five comments here, and so I'm like, and I'll,
• 52:03
  like, try to reply to people, and somebody be like, Hey, why
• 52:06
  are you not responding to me? And it's like, because I have
• 52:10
  to, I do other things and just like, monitor my social media.
• 52:14
  Like, it's like, I Yeah. Like, the reason this photo that I
• 52:17
  posted says I'm, I am starting this photo shoot like maybe I am
• 52:22
  working that's why I'm not replying to your your comment,
• 52:28
  yeah, and I mean, how do you think that photographers could
• 52:34
  be using social platforms as tools? To engage with people, to
• 52:46
  whether it's a potential client or just an audience, you know,
• 52:50
  like whether, if you're not even like selling stuff, but like,
• 52:53
  you know, connecting with people who are who they want to show
• 52:59
  their work to, as opposed to feeling controlled by the
• 53:05
  platform itself and in the need to get interactions,
• 53:11
  Anthony Rosner: I think it's, it's about what you want to get
• 53:15
  out of the social media platforms yourself. Some people
• 53:20
  want, but I've for myself, I like the sense of community, the
• 53:26
  sense of having my photos seen by others and getting feedback
• 53:32
  on my photos. And I think these sort of tools where you can post
• 53:37
  your your photo and maybe give a prompt to people who might
• 53:42
  engage with it, kind of gets that sort of feedback that you
• 53:48
  you kind of after. I mean, I guess another sort of side of it
• 53:52
  is taking it on a more local level, trying to meet like
• 53:56
  minded photographers who are into the same type of
• 53:59
  photography as you, or they're from the same area as you, where
• 54:03
  you can start building connections and start relating,
• 54:09
  you know, sharing stories and being inspired from each other,
• 54:12
  and sort of sharing your techniques and sort of using
• 54:15
  that sort of side of social media sort of really engage and
• 54:22
  like, find your community, find your people that always feels
• 54:28
  like the most. I always feel like circles. But yeah, I was
• 54:36
  gonna say good. I was gonna say like. It feels like you are
• 54:42
  trying to, sort of lost it now,
• 54:46
  Casey Fatchett: it's okay, it's, I think that there's a sense of,
• 54:49
  like, building, if you really want to build a community, and I
• 54:53
  highly recommend this go, like, take it offline, like you're
• 54:57
  saying, like, start locally. Obviously. Like. It's easiest
• 55:01
  way to do it, but like, find people you want to hang out with
• 55:04
  and, like, discuss with. Like, it's not just, I think that a
• 55:09
  lot of social media is not social, no, in a sense, it's
• 55:13
  like getting to, like, even if you disagree with somebody
• 55:17
  having a discussion with them about, like, oh, like, if
• 55:20
  somebody says, like, Oh, these are rage baiting posts. Of like,
• 55:23
  I just want engagement. Like, is like, oh, you should never, you
• 55:27
  know, use an ND filter if you shoot, you know, you find a
• 55:35
  like, why do you use a viewfinder? Why aren't you just
• 55:38
  using the screen on the back of your camera, yeah, those sorts
• 55:42
  of things. And it's sort of like, well, there are in I'm the
• 55:48
  guy who will, like, sometimes wade into that and be like,
• 55:50
  well, there's different reasons for using your viewfinder and
• 55:52
  for using like the back of your camera. Sometimes it's easier to
• 55:57
  see things from the screen, as opposed to, like, you're not as
• 56:02
  engaged with i It's funny because people will say, like,
• 56:06
  oh, I use the the back of the camera, because I can remain
• 56:10
  more engaged with my subject. Like, if you're shooting people,
• 56:13
  you're taking picture people, I'm like, You know what? I find
• 56:15
  it's actually the opposite case for me. Like, I feel like I'm
• 56:20
  more engaged because I'm actually looking at like,
• 56:22
  through the lens at them, and they know that I'm looking at
• 56:25
  just because they can see my face. I mean, I've talked about
• 56:29
  it with, like, with couples of photograph their weddings when
• 56:33
  I'm working, you know, doing corporate headshots, when I'm
• 56:37
  working with models, whatever. And like, these are varying
• 56:39
  degrees of peace, like, degrees of experience with having their
• 56:43
  photo taken. Like, yeah, these are like, they all react
• 56:47
  differently to it, but many of them are like, when I see that
• 56:50
  you're looking through the viewfinder, I assume that you
• 56:55
  are engaged, because I talk to them. That's what keeps them
• 56:58
  engaged. They don't need to see my face engaged so much, because
• 56:59
  I will talk to them whatever. But like those sorts of things,
• 56:59
  that's a conversation that I'll have with people when they're
• 56:59
  like, kind of rage baiting, because I'm like, I'll see
• 56:59
  there's 100 comments on here. And so people are seeing this
• 57:03
  thread, and they're interacting, like, I'm going to jump in here.
• 57:14
  And even though I don't like to like, increase the algorithms,
• 57:20
  like bumping this up. I want to put something of like, actual,
• 57:23
  like, some, a real interaction here, as opposed to just like,
• 57:29
  Oh, you're stupid.
• 57:31
  Anthony Rosner: That's That's something I'm quite mindful of,
• 57:33
  because you know, when you do post, when you do reply to
• 57:37
  somebody, your followers can see where you're right. And so that
• 57:42
  does dictate a bit how I reply and who I reply to. I try not to
• 57:47
  be drawn into any kind of debate or any kind of drama or, you
• 57:52
  know, negative comments, or, you know, range baiting, especially,
• 57:56
  I try to because I'm just like, Well, my followers can also see
• 58:00
  that, and that's not necessarily what I want to like prop up. You
• 58:05
  know that they're not the people I want to support. I want to
• 58:07
  support the people who are showing authentic are having
• 58:10
  interesting thoughts, you know, sharing a bit about themselves,
• 58:14
  being being authentic and being themselves. But when you know
• 58:18
  that's why I just don't reply, or I don't engage for any of the
• 58:20
  AI stuff, especially, I don't want to support it. I don't want
• 58:23
  to know I just block and move on.
• 58:26
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, better than that. Like, sometimes,
• 58:28
  like, I will, like, when, when I see somebody like, repost an AI,
• 58:32
  they can be like, Oh my God, look at this video, or look at
• 58:35
  this like, it's not it's AI, it's not real, yeah? Like,
• 58:39
  sometimes, like, I feel like there's a need to, like, speak
• 58:42
  up and say, Hey, that ain't that's not, not the real world,
• 58:47
  but you're better than I am. And like, so, like, it's still a
• 58:51
  lesson I'm learning to not engage, don't feed the trolls.
• 58:56
  Exactly. It's, yeah, I had one the other day who was commenting
• 59:04
  over and over again on my post. And I was sort of like, like,
• 59:08
  thanks for all of the you know, like, engagement that this is
• 59:13
  bringing to my post, because you just keep commenting over and
• 59:17
  over again. And he's like, Oh, it's just, well, you got
• 59:21
  somebody. And he said, you have so many more followers than I
• 59:24
  do. This is actually, like, boosting me. And I was like, Oh
• 59:28
  yeah, you're right. Time to block you. Time to delete all of
• 59:32
  your stuff. And, like, you know, block you because I don't want
• 59:35
  to you. You made me notice that you're just trying to stand on
• 59:40
  my work to get attention. Yeah, so let's get rid of you.
• 59:46
  Anthony Rosner: I find it's more better to support the people who
• 59:49
  are genuinely wanted to be there and being given genuine feedback
• 59:53
  and comments like, I don't I don't discriminate, I guess, in
• 59:57
  terms of like, if they've got 30,000 followers. Followers, or
• 59:57
  Casey Fatchett: like there was a lot more thoughtfulness put into
• 1:00:00
  30 followers. You know, if they're pleasant to talk to
• 1:00:03
  that, you know, they share some interesting stuff, then sure,
• 1:00:07
  I'll engage. It doesn't matter, and it doesn't again, it doesn't
• 1:00:11
  matter if they're a professional photographer or they're just
• 1:00:14
  starting out. I think it's just important to support people who
• 1:00:18
  also support you, but then again, not be drawn into all the
• 1:00:22
  conflict and the rage baiting, because it just That's not
• 1:00:25
  helping anyone. It's just people annoyed, and it gives the
• 1:00:28
  original person more exposure, and their points are usually
• 1:00:32
  completely ridiculous. The viewfinder debate, or ND filter
• 1:00:35
  debate, or any other studio lighting debates, when I was
• 1:00:39
  shown recently, and just also has gone kind of crazy, hot
• 1:00:42
  takes on social media, they're just not, not really worth I
• 1:00:46
  don't, I don't think it's worth engaging with. I mean, yeah, I
• 1:00:49
  am so tempted all the time to give my two cents. I reckon I
• 1:00:53
  would just have a laugh, you know, but at the same time, I
• 1:00:56
  don't, I don't know if that's the best way to to go about stuff
• 1:04:03
  what people posted when that was sort of like a like before it
• 1:04:07
  was just like, let's flood social media with like, every
• 1:04:09
  day you gotta post something like, every couple days at
• 1:04:13
  least, like, get a new thing out there where there's and even At
• 1:04:21
  the beginning of social media there, that was still kind of
• 1:04:23
  the thing was like, to take people from social media to your
• 1:04:27
  blog or to your portfolio and say, like, Hey, look at this.
• 1:04:30
  And this is in the story. But then social media platforms
• 1:04:35
  started throttling anything that, like, took people off of
• 1:04:40
  their platform because they didn't want people leaving the
• 1:04:42
  platform. Because what's the most?
• 1:04:46
  Anthony Rosner: You never had people critique in your photos.
• 1:04:48
  You never had people giving feedback. You never had people
• 1:04:51
  creating debates and stuff. You just kind of posted your photo.
• 1:04:54
  You know, if it's in a magazine or gallery or, you know if it
• 1:04:57
  was featured on TV for whatever reason? Do. Just your photos out
• 1:05:01
  there, there's no
• 1:05:02
  Casey Fatchett: and you could go to a portfolio review, like,
• 1:05:06
  yeah, you can still do that. Like, they still have them,
• 1:05:08
  like, like going someplace, and like, this is why people had
• 1:05:11
  photography clubs. And like, you bring in prints. Or, I mean,
• 1:05:16
  you, I mean, today, if you could, you could still, I would
• 1:05:19
  probably take a like, an iPad or something, and just like, here's
• 1:05:23
  much photos that I took recently, and, like, show them
• 1:05:25
  to the people in my group and be like, hey, what do you guys
• 1:05:28
  think of these? Like, and get feedback. And that was the
• 1:05:31
  thing, I think, that before social media, or in the early
• 1:05:35
  days of social media, I felt as a photographer that, like,
• 1:05:39
  something we lost was getting earnest feedback from people
• 1:05:42
  that we trusted, like we trusted them, instead of just, like,
• 1:05:47
  getting it from anybody online. It's sort of like, and like, you
• 1:05:53
  knew that they would be honest with you about what you like.
• 1:05:53
  You're not sitting there going like, oh, you know, like,
• 1:05:53
  they're just gonna go, oh, this is beautiful. Whatever you show
• 1:05:54
  them, they're gonna say, like, Hey, this is great. This is
• 1:05:54
  like, an improvement on what you've been trying to do,
• 1:06:03
  because it kind of like that we've all been sort of like,
• 1:06:07
  what is when you build that community? It's like people know
• 1:06:13
  your where you're coming from, like, the longer that you've
• 1:06:16
  been with that group, they're kind of going, oh, you know,
• 1:06:19
  this is similar to something you shot a year ago. But like, I
• 1:06:21
  know that you've been trying to make things look more in this
• 1:06:25
  style and this really, you really hitting it with this
• 1:06:28
  thing. And like, for me, I think I'd just be spending more time,
• 1:06:31
  probably at diners or somewhere like having tea with, you know,
• 1:06:37
  a group of photographers probably once a week. And, you
• 1:06:41
  know, instead of looking at social media,
• 1:06:46
  Anthony Rosner: I mean, when my social media like, I guess the
• 1:06:50
  days before Threads, when I didn't really have back then, I
• 1:06:55
  had about 40 followers on Instagram, which are mostly just
• 1:06:59
  a few friends and family, and then I'd get, you know, two or
• 1:07:05
  three likes on my photos or a couple of comments. But in those
• 1:07:12
  days, before finding a community was I was part of a photo club,
• 1:07:18
  like a local one, and just being able to connect with people and
• 1:07:22
  share our photos and get some real feedback from people, and
• 1:07:25
  just get some real discussions about photography, it's always
• 1:07:29
  been quite difficult to sort of find that sort of crowd
• 1:07:33
  sometimes. I mean, there's lots of photo clubs all around the
• 1:07:35
  world, but sometimes it's hard to actually find them when you
• 1:07:38
  when you need them. And although we're talking about life without
• 1:07:43
  social media, but with social media, when you find your your
• 1:07:47
  people, in your crowd, and you find that community, it really
• 1:07:50
  is powerful thing. It really helps you to, you know, hone
• 1:07:54
  your craft and be a better photographer, be a better
• 1:07:57
  creative, be a better person, and just learn from others and
• 1:08:02
  sort of share your ideas, you know, I guess, you know, we
• 1:08:07
  talked about our thought processes and sharing just our
• 1:08:12
  knowledge, and I feel like us sharing knowledge with each
• 1:08:15
  other just makes us all better, all the more for it. You know,
• 1:08:18
  it's it just makes us stronger, stronger creators and stronger
• 1:08:24
  people, because we be able to connect and forward its flaws in
• 1:08:28
  social media, there is the upsides to it, but then without
• 1:08:32
  it, you're forced to find the people in your local area. And I
• 1:08:34
  thought that's also just equally as important to be able to talk
• 1:08:38
  to people in person and show photos in person. And, you know,
• 1:08:43
  sharing a photo that's blown up in print so much more satisfying
• 1:08:48
  than just looking at it on the phone, because there's so much
• 1:08:50
  more details you can see. There's so much more you can see
• 1:08:53
  the craftsmanship and every every pixel, so to speak. But
• 1:08:56
  you know, in every print, it just, it's a whole different
• 1:09:02
  sort of feeling, I think so, yeah, it's one of
• 1:09:05
  Casey Fatchett: those things, like, I was gonna say, like, the
• 1:09:07
  nerdy photographer community, like, all these people like, who
• 1:09:09
  I like yourself, like, as people who I've sort of connected with
• 1:09:12
  through the social media, in like, of this show and like, in
• 1:09:17
  the website whenever, like, all, like, There's so many wonderful
• 1:09:20
  people who I'm, like, if I'm, if you're ever in New York, or
• 1:09:25
  you're like, these things, like, like, nearby, like, I want to
• 1:09:28
  meet up in person, or like, Let's get together. Like, I've
• 1:09:30
  had the pleasure of, like, meeting people who I've known,
• 1:09:33
  who have been guests on the show, and, you know, like,
• 1:09:36
  become friends with them, like, a socially social media,
• 1:09:42
  friends, whatever, but then, like, have the chance to, like,
• 1:09:44
  meet up and, like, in person. And it's like, it is that social
• 1:09:49
  media where it's become the icebreaker and the sort of like,
• 1:09:53
  in the way that we maintain our relationship when between the
• 1:09:56
  times that we see each other. And it's sort of like, yeah,
• 1:09:58
  like, I have people. I'm like, you know, future in person
• 1:10:01
  friend is all of my guests. Future in person friends, if I
• 1:10:06
  haven't met you in person before, like,
• 1:10:08
  Anthony Rosner: well, you know, if you're in London, I'll be
• 1:10:10
  happy to share your
• 1:10:12
  Casey Fatchett: I've been before. We're looking to come
• 1:10:15
  back sometimes. So it was like, it's that sort of like, the
• 1:10:19
  desire to connect, whether it's in social media or whether it's
• 1:10:27
  in person. Like to connect on a deeper level than just like the
• 1:10:33
  that sort of like, shallow and it's like, that's sort of like,
• 1:10:34
  we like to bring it for a full circle, back to like, what we're
• 1:10:35
  talking about. Talking about the very beginning, like the people
• 1:10:36
  who just sort of, oh, that's a pretty picture of the Eiffel
• 1:10:47
  Tower, versus the people who look at the Charlie Chaplin
• 1:10:51
  impersonator and feel something, crave feeling,
• 1:10:57
  Anthony Rosner: yeah, absolutely it's people want to connect.
• 1:11:02
  People want to have that connection. I mean, you know,
• 1:11:05
  we've sort of touched on it before, about when people don't
• 1:11:11
  how social media can also make you feel lonely, because you do
• 1:11:15
  see all these people having connections with each other, but
• 1:11:18
  you're not part of the crowd. I suddenly used to feel that way,
• 1:11:21
  where I'd post and nobody saw it, and you kind of feel like
• 1:11:28
  I'm missing out. How is it that everyone is so connected, but I
• 1:11:31
  still feel lonely, and it's a hard cycle to break out of, I
• 1:11:38
  think. And a lot you see a lot of people, lot of photographers,
• 1:11:41
  especially on social media, where they're like, they have a
• 1:11:43
  meltdown, almost, where they're like, Okay, I've been posting my
• 1:11:46
  photos for days now. I've had one bike, and I just giving up a
• 1:11:50
  fright in the towel. And actually, that will be the post
• 1:11:52
  that goes viral, because people want to say, no, don't stop.
• 1:11:56
  Keep going. People will see it. You'll find your people. And
• 1:12:00
  people want to support people being creative, I think overall.
• 1:12:03
  So it's a shame when that happens, when people feel like
• 1:12:08
  this is not working, but then that's kind of like, well,
• 1:12:14
  they're chasing the wrong the wrong thing, and they should be
• 1:12:17
  doing it for the love of the craft. Not so much about the who
• 1:12:20
  sees it?
• 1:12:21
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think it's difficult thing to, and
• 1:12:24
  we've touched on it, like, it's a difficult thing to kind of get
• 1:12:28
  into the mindset of is that it's not, it's about like feeling
• 1:12:32
  okay with yourself and your creation. Like I can listen to
• 1:12:36
  other like, like, here's the thing, I can go in, put down one
• 1:12:40
  of a photo that I'm really proud of and listen to five people
• 1:12:44
  tell me what they think of it. They could tear it apart. They
• 1:12:48
  could love it. It's not gonna, it's not gonna change the fact
• 1:12:52
  that I'm proud of what I did. Yeah, I'm proud of that photo.
• 1:12:56
  I'm proud of that photo. I'm not gonna, it's not gonna like,
• 1:13:00
  their their input. And I might listen to like, oh, well, like,
• 1:13:05
  if you want this feeling, maybe crop it a little differently.
• 1:13:09
  Or, like, if maybe we, like, make the shadows a little like,
• 1:13:13
  like, increase the shadows a little bit over on this side, or
• 1:13:17
  whatever, like, that sort of thing, where I'll, I'll listen
• 1:13:21
  to that, and obviously I want to hear how other people react to
• 1:13:25
  it, because it's like, it's not created in a vacuum. But it
• 1:13:29
  doesn't stop me from being like, Oh, I shouldn't have bothered
• 1:13:33
  Yeah, even if, even if everybody looks at it goes like, Oh, this
• 1:13:37
  is terrible. I've gotten to that point. And I'm not saying that
• 1:13:41
  I've always been that way, but I've gotten to the point where I
• 1:13:46
  can sit there and go like, Yeah, I'm okay with that. I'm okay
• 1:13:50
  with in its it sucks when that happens. Some people like, Oh,
• 1:13:54
  that wasn't, it's not your best work. And it's like, yeah, I'm
• 1:13:58
  not always creating the best thing I've ever created every
• 1:14:02
  time, yeah. And that's, I think that there's something that
• 1:14:06
  people need to be okay with. Yeah, they're, they're not
• 1:14:09
  always going to be the best one. And that's another thing. It's
• 1:14:14
  like, you know, like when you look at, I was at a shoot last
• 1:14:18
  month, and, you know, I probably took three or 400 photos away
• 1:14:22
  from, like, just, you know, from working with this model, but I
• 1:14:26
  edited that down to probably a dozen, yeah, that I liked, and I
• 1:14:30
  posted half of those because I was like, not really like. I
• 1:14:34
  mean, it's not for social like. I don't think this one will do
• 1:14:38
  well on social media. This is not like, even though I like it,
• 1:14:42
  and I am going to, you know, probably include it in my blog
• 1:14:46
  post that I do about this shoot. It's not, I don't think it's,
• 1:14:51
  you know, for social media. I don't think this one, this shot,
• 1:14:55
  is for social media, but it still means something to me, and
• 1:14:59
  I like the shot, like, that's the sort of place that I aspire
• 1:15:03
  to be all the time. And is that, you know, I can, I can have a
• 1:15:07
  control of how I feel about like social media, as opposed to
• 1:15:11
  thinking that it's the end all be, all of what I'm doing.
• 1:15:16
  Anthony Rosner: Well, the other side is like when you've taken
• 1:15:19
  hundreds of pictures or 1000s of pictures of a subject. Everyone
• 1:15:24
  who sees the one photo doesn't know the 1000s of photos that
• 1:15:28
  went into that one photo. I mean, I once took like 3000
• 1:15:32
  photos of, like a friend's dog. I edited like, one of them,
• 1:15:36
  because it's just like, Okay, I've got too many photos this
• 1:15:40
  dog. But actually I need you buy one good one. And that was like,
• 1:15:45
  yeah, it was fun. But like, yeah. I mean, with social media,
• 1:15:49
  we definitely get stuck in our own heads, and we overthink
• 1:15:53
  everything, we analyze everything. But actually, you
• 1:15:57
  need to think about it from the other side of social media, how
• 1:16:01
  are people seeing your content? How are they engaging with your
• 1:16:06
  content? They don't know the 1000s of photos you've taken.
• 1:16:10
  They don't know how many years you might be thinking about a
• 1:16:14
  project that all they see is what's in front of them, and
• 1:16:18
  maybe that's good enough for them to engage. They don't need
• 1:16:22
  to question more. They don't need to know anything more than
• 1:16:27
  that. So, yeah, keep it all in perspective. Yes,
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  actually said I was up over 80% of my storage capacity. So I was
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  Unknown: Hey, now for my favorite part of the show,
• 1:19:20
  what's that say? Useless information. This is always death.
• 1:19:27
  Casey Fatchett: Now, Anthony, it is time for the useless
• 1:19:31
  knowledge for this episode, pick something that I think maybe you
• 1:19:38
  talked about the gaming documentary, hoping this, this
• 1:19:43
  will strike for a chord for you, which is more recent in history,
• 1:19:50
  the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, or the founding of Nintendo?
• 1:20:00
  Anthony Rosner: Collapse of the Ottoman Empire, yes. And is like
• 1:20:04
  1800s
• 1:20:05
  Casey Fatchett: Yes, yes, 1889 for the founding of Nintendo,
• 1:20:09
  yeah. Whereas the Ottoman Empire dissolved in 1922 it's pretty
• 1:20:14
  amazing. They weren't always a video game company.
• 1:20:18
  Anthony Rosner: People ancient, 200 year black Game Boy. Sorry,
• 1:20:22
  there's
• 1:20:24
  Casey Fatchett: a Game Boy in the 1800s it's just been waiting
• 1:20:27
  at least the technology then uncover it. Yeah, Anthony, it
• 1:20:31
  was a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for coming on.
• 1:20:34
  You're always welcome to come back. Where can people find you?
• 1:20:38
  Anthony Rosner: First of all, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:20:41
  It's been dinner. I've been following a podcast for ages. So
• 1:20:45
  it's really a real honor to be here. So really grateful. And in
• 1:20:49
  terms of finding me, well, my handle online is Android night,
• 1:20:54
  a, n, T, R, O, N, O, i, d, and that's on Instagram threads.
• 1:20:58
  It's pretty much everywhere you can find that mile into their
• 1:21:02
  history. But mostly Instagram and friends is the most the main
• 1:21:06
  places I kind of hang out.
• 1:21:08
  Casey Fatchett: So I'll put those links in the Episode Notes
• 1:21:11
  as well, so you can just click on there. Follow Anthony, it's a
• 1:21:15
  pleasure, man. Thanks again. Thanks for coming on. Cheers.
• 1:21:19
  Thank you. Foreign.
• 1:21:29
  Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed my talk with Anthony Rosner. Be
• 1:21:33
  sure to check out his link in the Episode Notes and follow
• 1:21:35
  along with him. While you were gone, I managed to pry Golden's
• 1:21:38
  communicator from his paws. You feel a little better after
• 1:21:42
  having a break from that thing stuck. You're going to need to
• 1:21:47
  go without it for a little while longer before I give it back to
• 1:21:50
  you. But you don't have to wait to follow along with us on the
• 1:21:53
  socials. Follow at the nerdy photo. That's at the nerdy
• 1:21:56
  photo. No dots, underscores or dashes on Instagram, threads,
• 1:21:59
  blue sky and Reddit, don't miss the memes, the tips, the behind
• 1:22:03
  the scenes looks and much, much more that goes on between the
• 1:22:06
  episodes snuck it's literally been 20 seconds. No, that was
• 1:22:11
  not long enough until next time. Everybody stay safe and stay
• 1:22:14
  nerdy. You
• 1:22:24
  who's your heart been beating about you better. Get better.
• 1:22:32
  Get better. Get better. Listen, you.