Latest / Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship / #186 - The Friend Who Copies You: Flattering or Frustrating? (Candace Ourisman)

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#186 - The Friend Who Copies You: Flattering or Frustrating? (Candace Ourisman) · Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship

0:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Dierneena Conversations about Friendship.
0:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I am your host Nina Boutsin.
0:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been writing about Friendship for over 10 years, podcasting about it for almost five years.
0:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I love to delve into the Manusha of Friendship.
0:18
[SPEAKER_01]: The parts that
0:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people, Michael, why are you doing a whole episode about that?
0:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Almost every time that happens when it's something that seems really small.
0:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Not the big things like friendship breakups, although I do that too.
0:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I have plenty of episodes about that.
0:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Plenty of episodes about the big stuff like grief, making new friends in a new city, and friend groups, and when your kids stop being friends, I've done it all.
0:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I've really done almost everything you can think of.
0:43
[SPEAKER_01]: This is episode 186.
0:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So trust me, if you thought about it within friendship, I have probably done it.
0:49
[SPEAKER_01]: However, today's episode is one, I had not really considered as an episode until real simple magazine asked me to be one of the four experts that answered some friendship advice questions and their February merch issue.
1:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I was so excited to be listed with three other pretty major thought leaders.
1:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I may say, I mean, they're probably looking at mine being like, who's this person?
1:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Anywho, I was
1:12
[SPEAKER_01]: honored to be there.
1:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll have a picture of that in the show notes because it's not online has of now.
1:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if they'll put it online, but it's an actual print.
1:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I had to go to the store to the magazine section and when's the last time anyone's done that?
1:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to give you the just of what real simple magazine asked me to answer, though I do give you the full question.
1:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And my full answer later in the episode.
1:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a long lines of my friend copies everything I do.
1:37
[SPEAKER_01]: My clothes, my bags, even asked for links while we're on vacation together.
1:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I know imitation is supposed to be flattery, but honestly, it's starting to feel annoying and a little creepy what do I do?
1:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I liked this question because it gets at something that like I was saying earlier and I interrupted myself feels maybe petty or surface when you first think about it.
1:58
[SPEAKER_01]: but I like this sort of question where there's no right answer.
2:01
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, everybody feels differently about that topic.
2:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people are thrilled to give away everything they've ever researched, whether it's a vacation information or financial information like here's who you should invest with, or something as simple as this is where I got this pair of pants and here's where you can get them.
2:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And some people value their individual style a lot more like let's just keep it in the clothes and maybe even home to her arena for a moment.
2:27
[SPEAKER_01]: If you did something particular to your porch, let's say you just re-did your porch and you got this couch in this table and this
2:34
[SPEAKER_01]: paint color or this wallpaper.
2:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And then your friends like, oh, I love this.
2:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I really want my a porch that looks kind of like this.
2:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And you go to their house six months later and it looks exactly the same.
2:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you feel a little funny about that?
2:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, okay.
2:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Now we have twin rooms in a world where there's so many options.
2:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that feel strange?
2:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it like, okay, we don't get keep for friends.
2:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Friends don't get keep.
2:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's where I got everything.
2:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's what a cost.
2:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's different for each person.
2:58
[SPEAKER_01]: There is not a right answer.
3:00
[SPEAKER_01]: my answer because I am not a fashionista at all.
3:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, at all, I'm just not good at that stuff.
3:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean that I don't like to look nice, I do, but I am not good at it.
3:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really basic.
3:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you can look through YouTube or Instagram on where I have all the clips of my podcast and
3:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I am basically wearing one of six different things and this sweater I've worn a million times on a podcast I'm not a very fashion forward person, which you'll hear me say more in the episode.
3:29
[SPEAKER_01]: My answer in the magazine I came at this question differently because she had said in the question that this is something that's been bothering her for 15 years and I found that I focused more on that my answer was more about why are you letting something fester for 15 years without saying something.
3:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to further the question and the answer
3:47
[SPEAKER_01]: in an episode and I realized I needed somebody with me who is more fashion forward, who is more fashion conscious, who even does it as part of their business.
3:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone who has a really individual style both in her home and on her, she just really cool and has a unique eye.
4:05
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be interesting to round out this idea with a guest.
4:09
[SPEAKER_01]: The idea being, when does copying feel like connection?
4:13
[SPEAKER_01]: When does it feel like your identity is being erased?
4:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we say imitation is a form of flattery.
4:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, what if it goes too far, though?
4:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's the line?
4:21
[SPEAKER_01]: again, the line is different for everybody.
4:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So while on the surface it may seem like this episode is about clothes and handbags, it actually is deeper than that.
4:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about individuality, appreciation, whether your friends acknowledge what you bring to the table, give their just ordering everything that you've ever had and they don't actually say to you, hey, that looks great on you.
4:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I have the link?
4:39
[SPEAKER_01]: They just do it on their own, but that feel weird would it feel better if they just at least say it?
4:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And then finally, we do also get to what if you do some of this stuff for a living?
4:49
[SPEAKER_01]: What if you have a certain expertise in your friend once you're help with it?
4:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But they don't offer to pay.
4:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Now that really would be it almost an entirely separate topic.
4:57
[SPEAKER_01]: To be honest, we could do a whole episode on that.
4:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I have written about that before.
5:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of my most popular advice column topics.
5:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I will dig that out.
5:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It was from a year ago.
5:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It might have been from 2014 when I was first writing about this for 2015.
5:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it was the second year.
5:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a long time ago.
5:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a good idea to bring that back up.
5:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll put it in the show notes.
5:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to find that.
5:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
5:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this been a long preface?
5:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Or what?
5:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to tell you about my guest.
5:18
[SPEAKER_01]: My guest is Candice Orisman.
5:20
[SPEAKER_01]: She is a creative director, brand consultant, and gifting expert based in Washington, D.C. She founded Secretly Fancy in 2009.
5:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lifestyle platform that blends fashion.
5:31
[SPEAKER_01]: home and hosting with a really playful point of view.
5:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So you could find her on social media on Instagram at secretly fancy.
5:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Her website is secretly fancy.com.
5:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Her work has been featured in the New York Times, the Washington Post, New York magazines The Cut, the Washingtonian, Yahoo Finance, and the lots more.
5:50
[SPEAKER_01]: She's just fun and says it like it is.
5:53
[SPEAKER_01]: We met on Instagram.
5:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I think through the podcast, her being a listener.
5:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I am just glad that I was able to have a more fashionable point of view to help me with my answer.
6:03
[SPEAKER_01]: No more prophecy.
6:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get down into this somewhat tricky topic.
6:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Candace.
6:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Dernina.
6:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so excited to be here.
6:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So we are going to start with a question that I answered for real simple magazine, and I'm not going to tell you my answer right away because I am so curious how you as someone with an actual fashion sense, a real knowledge of finding things like I really don't.
6:26
[SPEAKER_01]: If I even event to go to my best friend Terran sends me links or other friends who helped me, it was interesting that real simple has me to answer this question and I will be so curious to get your point of view also.
6:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Love it!
6:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So, it's said, I have a friend of almost 15 years, she copies everything I do.
6:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Not just close and bags, I'm talking very large life investments as well.
6:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I understand everyone says this is a form of flattery, but it annoys me.
6:54
[SPEAKER_01]: We will be on a trip together, and she starts ordering all of my outfits, purses, etc.
6:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Even asking me for the links.
7:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to be friendly or nice when it's kind of annoying and creepy, and it ruins a lot of our good times.
7:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I create distance between us to think it over and let myself cool down, and sometimes I feel bad and petty for even caring.
7:13
[SPEAKER_01]: How can I navigate our friendship moving forward without all of these awkward feelings and encounters?
7:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to take out the life-investments part of this because that's going to be on our scope.
7:25
[SPEAKER_01]: That would maybe be more if we were talking about money and friendship and helping friends get ahead.
7:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've done it for so long.
7:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to throw that part out and just stick to the clothes, the badge, you're on a trip together and all of a sudden it's weird to get this, how much of this costs, what is it bring up for you or someone who is in an industry where people are
7:42
[SPEAKER_01]: looking to you as someone who could give them advice about what to buy, what to wear, but also someone who has a lot of original style and that can be a confusing line sometimes, which is a lot to answer, so we'll start with first what would you advise her, your friend wants to know all your stuff, but it's maybe a little extra.
7:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little more than normal.
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say when you were reading not my first visceral reaction was kind of a feeling of empathy for the woman posing the question to real simple.
8:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's clear that this is a close friend their vacationing together.
8:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We only vacation with our closest circle of girlfriends.
8:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And she clearly cares about the person.
8:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So my first thought is what a bummer that this is kind of infringing on their friendship
8:29
[SPEAKER_00]: in any way.
8:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to kind of take my own reference system out of it and say what advice I would give her and it doesn't sound like she's in the fashion industry is when we're in these very close friendships.
8:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I think
8:44
[SPEAKER_00]: that there is this natural phenomenon of women not only bonding together in terms of shared life experiences, but when you have a fondness for somebody, I think it is totally natural to look at them and think, wow, you know, Nina looks beautiful in that top.
9:04
[SPEAKER_00]: and maybe I would look beautiful in that top.
9:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So I too, I'm going to get that top.
9:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Nina were those sneakers on our walk last week, and I don't have a good pair of walking sneakers.
9:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to just get Nina's walking sneakers.
9:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a totally natural phenomenon.
9:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think in this case, it sounds like this person is trying to do anything negative
9:30
[SPEAKER_00]: a little annoying, jarring, surprising when someone just keeps showing up time after time with your clothes, your shoes, whatever it may be.
9:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would just say to this person, this is a natural part of female friendship when you do spend a lot of time together, try and take it as a compliment.
9:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I respect taking space to think about it because it does kind of mess with your head because you
10:00
[SPEAKER_00]: happens.
10:01
[SPEAKER_01]: That is true.
10:02
[SPEAKER_01]: You brought up a lot of points.
10:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even bring up in my answer.
10:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a word count answer, which is interesting.
10:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I answered a lot of advice questions on my own substack at tyrannina.substack.com.
10:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, I don't have a word count because I'm the editor.
10:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So I let myself cover it all.
10:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I've answered advice questions for the skin as well and they also have a strict word count.
10:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's interesting and kind of a fun experiment for me to have to do it in a short amount of time.
10:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to read you what I wrote and then we're going to address this whole issue from more of an insider of somebody who is more in the business.
10:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I wrote, this is an example of an element of friendship where there's no right or wrong.
10:38
[SPEAKER_01]: There's simply what's right for you.
10:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, some people would consider the request for links, a compliment.
10:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Others would find it suffocating in a breach of their individualism.
10:47
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not petty for finding her consistent asks annoying.
10:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like a lot.
10:52
[SPEAKER_01]: However, 15 years is a long time to carry around resentment for something you could have communicated at any point along the way.
10:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not fair to blame your friend for her inability to read your mind.
11:03
[SPEAKER_01]: In the past, you've created distance to send her a message, but the message has never been received.
11:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Now it's time to spell out the issue of longstanding friend deserves an honest conversation.
11:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Next time she asks for the link for your outfit or bed, let her know this bothers you.
11:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Stay focused on eye statements, which is important because it would not be a problem for everyone.
11:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You can say something like, I should have said this earlier in our friendship, but I want to keep some of these finds to myself.
11:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's important to me to feel original in my style.
11:30
[SPEAKER_01]: you're entitled to feel this way, you have to take responsibility for it though.
11:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Give your friend the opportunity to stop asking.
11:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I bet you only have to respond this way once and she will get the message loud and clear.
11:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Hard conversations only get easier with practice.
11:44
[SPEAKER_01]: You can do this.
11:45
[SPEAKER_01]: That was my...
11:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So I kind of took fascinating.
11:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, good.
11:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I glad you liked it.
11:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I took it more as the topic could almost be anything.
11:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And I took it away maybe from the links a little bit although I did give a very specific script.
11:57
[SPEAKER_01]: She could use and made it more about why are you holding on to something for 15 years like in fairness to your friend.
12:03
[SPEAKER_01]: You've never given her an opportunity to do it differently.
12:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, your answer is so fascinating to me for so many reasons, and I love that you brought up just like having the tough conversations with friends, which is a whole other topic that I'm sure you've really gone into a lot, but that can be very challenging for not just conflict of verse people, but everyone, including myself by the way, so
12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: so I love your answer because it addresses the fact that she should have a conversation.
12:33
[SPEAKER_00]: One part that made me giggle is when you said, you're only going to need to have the conversation once.
12:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I guarantee you, girl, I'm here to tell you, once does not cut it for everyone.
12:45
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not it.
12:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I've ever had a true sit down.
12:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's specifically cover this.
12:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I have tried to insinuate hint with friends when it has rubbed me the wrong way that it's something like I don't love and it hasn't always gone away.
13:02
[SPEAKER_01]: can't.
13:03
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a perfect segue to real life now.
13:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You are an extremely fashion forward person.
13:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see that being on your Instagram for two seconds, I can see that anyone who challenges you regularly will know that.
13:15
[SPEAKER_01]: You have an eye for style, whether it's clothes or accessories and home.
13:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So I am sure you are a go to person for friends, but you are also
13:26
[SPEAKER_01]: in the business of helping people find the right thing.
13:29
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you manage this and all of us?
13:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It's used specifically, but I want this to be helpful for all listeners, right?
13:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I want all listeners to be able to understand.
13:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're the kind of person who's always asking people where they got stuff, when is it too much?
13:43
[SPEAKER_01]: There's this idea like we don't gate-keep friends don't gate-keep.
13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: true, but also is it the duty of a friend at some point to just that ask.
13:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we shouldn't ask how much something cost or where's and then came from.
13:55
[SPEAKER_01]: There's all those issues.
13:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so like you mentioned, I'm kind of in a unique position because talk about not gate keeping.
14:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I've spent a lot of my career.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I started my blog secretly fancy and I had to do research for this episode.
14:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, what did I start it?
14:09
[SPEAKER_00]: 2009?
14:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been doing this for a very long time.
14:13
[SPEAKER_00]: One of my passions in life is sharing.
14:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I love sharing.
14:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a complicated issue for me personally.
14:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do think it does come up for other women as well.
14:25
[SPEAKER_00]: This is something that literally happened two days ago.
14:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like perfect.
14:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna talk about this on Dior Nina.
14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: She came to me and I was wearing this cross-body bag.
14:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I personally have never seen anybody with this bag in my community.
14:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw it on this random woman walking down the street in Aspen, this summer.
14:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I stopped her on the street.
14:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I love paying a compliment, which plays into this because I think that's part of the Iq factor is not recognizing that you like something that somebody has and then just showing up in it.
14:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I stopped this woman.
14:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, where do you get your back?
14:58
[SPEAKER_00]: She told me when I was like, okay, I'm going to get it, trapped it down in Washington.
15:03
[SPEAKER_00]: When this friend said to me, oh my gosh, I love your bag.
15:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been wanting across body bag.
15:10
[SPEAKER_00]: My radar went up and I was like, you know, it would kind of be a bummer.
15:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I really do like you mentioned value, my individuality, my personal sense of style.
15:18
[SPEAKER_00]: If people just started showing up with this bag.
15:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I said was this is one of my prize possessions.
15:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it so much.
15:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never seen it in DC or even New York.
15:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it's so me.
15:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like what I was communicating to her was I want to be like a unique gal and this is something that I think is emblematic of my personal style.
15:43
[SPEAKER_01]: How did it land?
15:44
[SPEAKER_00]: She was like, okay, cool.
15:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I was looking at this other bag and the conversation went on.
15:49
[SPEAKER_00]: In the moment in my head, I was panicking a little bit, but once I set it, I was like, wait, that sounds very reasonable.
15:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it is reasonable.
15:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd like what you started to talk about, and let's go there about the compliment part.
16:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, this is something as I was preparing for this episode and thinking probably too much at length about this subject that I am very interested in.
16:12
[SPEAKER_00]: What about that phenomenon?
16:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody emulating your style or what you're wearing feels yucky if it's a close friend.
16:20
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, it's different.
16:22
[SPEAKER_00]: If it's somebody in my community in Instagram, that's been following me for years that's in Arkansas or New York or even somebody in DC
16:33
[SPEAKER_00]: If it is a close friend that I'm hanging out with on the regular and that person doesn't say to me, hey, Candace, I love that sweater.
16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so cool how it's like I cape and it's also a sweater and I love the buttons.
16:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even think that friend needs to say, I'm going to get that sweater.
16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think if they if I say that to me I'm like first of all, thank you.
16:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I always think see something say something give your friends compliments that's something I believe strongly in.
16:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you know what, if that person shows up in this sweater, I'm like, do your thing girl, you loved it, you got it, you look great.
17:06
[SPEAKER_00]: If I have friend that I'm hanging out with, I wear said top and then the next week, we kind of bump into each other.
17:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we're not going to lunch together.
17:14
[SPEAKER_00]: She may not wear it to a lunch with me, but I see her and she didn't say anything.
17:19
[SPEAKER_00]: She didn't say, I love that or I like the color or the fabric looks cooler, anything.
17:24
[SPEAKER_00]: That just to me feels different.
17:26
[SPEAKER_00]: it feels like that friend maybe can't recognize you and can't verbalize something kind to you, which I think sounds like it may be in an envious jealousy category because they can't verbalize.
17:43
[SPEAKER_00]: That looks great on you.
17:44
[SPEAKER_00]: and some friends really can't, they can't do it.
17:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have those friends anymore, but I've had them.
17:49
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I can relate to this in a very unexpected way, which is writer, to writer, podcast, or to the podcaster.
17:56
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a difference to me when somebody reaches out directly and says, I see you had someone so-and-so-and-so on your podcast, can you share their contact information?
18:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a really great episode.
18:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they'd fit on mine too, something like that.
18:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Podcasts are kind of friends I have.
18:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Versus I just note they have like all my guests that that happened sometimes around like whoa It's guests after guests all this and I worked so hard to curate my show.
18:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly This is like you do your amazing at it of course and I'm careful about it It would feel totally different if they just said that was a great episode I think they'd be a good fit in mine here's why I would set it up But when it's without any conversation if it's just one guest that's different because by the way the person who pitched me could also have pitched them to
18:40
[SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes you can see it as a pattern and you're like, wait, is that good?
18:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I respect people who can say no, also.
18:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So on the flip side, a friend of mine was a guest at a pretty big podcast and I was like, ooh, I wonder if I could do that.
18:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I asked her if she could make the introduction and she very honestly was like, this was so above my pay grade.
18:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel she and this host have that relationship.
19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to help you.
19:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel like I can do that.
19:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And I respected that too, and I've had to also give that answer to people that happen sometimes.
19:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Or you're like, it was a miracle I even got on this thing, you know, got this publication.
19:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to bother the editor.
19:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had that too with writing.
19:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
19:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I can make that introduction, and sometimes it was by the skin of my teeth that I got an article in this place.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't do that.
19:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can't use every connection.
19:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully a good friend will be able to hear that.
19:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
19:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
19:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to have these conversations.
19:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's important, though.
19:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very hard in something that that reminds me of is this phenomenon of I'm sure you find solace in this too and this is what comforts me when stuff like this happens because I really value individuality especially when it comes to style and aesthetic.
19:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to feel like I'm a unique.
19:49
[SPEAKER_00]: being on this earth.
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes me feel confident and grounded and motivated.
19:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I always think about the idea where it's the same same ingredients, different soup or different taste.
20:02
[SPEAKER_00]: No matter how many things a friend purchases of mine, they're not me.
20:07
[SPEAKER_00]: That's comforting to me.
20:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Where do we put in the concept of no gatekeeping into this whole puzzle, because it could be true for what I'm saying, like helping other podcasts, which I do a lot, by the way, and helping other writers or, you know, more to this episode, specifically with a certain love.
20:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Or not even just clothes, because that's true with things you do in your house too, or that paint color, or that, you know, it could, it goes on and on.
20:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's about fast-forwarding the research.
20:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a little like that, so I can empathize with the person who's always asking for the link, because I had no sense of color, even nail polish, like I could go into a nail salon.
20:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone can show me four different reds.
20:46
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, they all look exactly the same, where to someone like you, you would know that one's a little blue, that one's a little pink, that one's a little orange.
20:54
[SPEAKER_01]: sense is off.
20:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So I probably do ask more than I give in terms of those kind of links.
21:01
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not your skill set, that's not your wheelhouse, you're a writer, you're a podcast, so it's your expert on female friendship.
21:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I have so many friends where fashion isn't their thing, they either don't care, they don't feel like they have the time, it's just not a priority.
21:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really not a gatekeeper.
21:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I honestly probably maybe should be like a little more with certain things, but I can't help myself.
21:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if this phenomenon winds up feeling yucky for me sometimes, my intrinsic personality is to share and help people, I will never stop.
21:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Because this happens to me, it's not like I adjust.
21:41
[SPEAKER_00]: my style or anything in my life because I just don't have it in me.
21:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, I have holes in my skills set too.
21:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So interior design is a huge passion of mine.
21:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I love interior design and I'd consult different interior designers.
21:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I used to do floral arrangements for interior designers who are having homes photographed for publications and I'm really good with color and I'm really good with fabric.
22:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm horrible with spatial relations.
22:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not understand what should be going on in a room if it should be a couch, if it should be a side table.
22:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know up from down on asking friends.
22:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm asking interior designer friends and I'm so grateful when they share that with me.
22:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone has their strengths.
22:24
[SPEAKER_01]: part of what we're helping people with is the how to ask.
22:27
[SPEAKER_01]: If your friend has a skill set and it's something that would help you, there's a way to ask and this goes into a completely different topic but related which is when to pay your friends or not for their skill set.
22:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's as one piece of the topic, which is, when is imitation, flattery, when is it over the top, and then just veering slightly over to what I just brought up of when are you taking advantage of a friend's skill set that you actually should probably be paying for at that point?
22:55
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?
22:55
[SPEAKER_00]: That topic is so fascinating to me for so many reasons and right now it's for fashion, but I had a gifting company on years ago that I ran for about five years.
23:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And it came because I was being tapped constantly by so many friends.
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: What do I get for my husband?
23:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's our 10 year anniversary.
23:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, my boss, it's her birthday, and I need to get that's not too personal.
23:21
[SPEAKER_00]: But as personal enough, my phone was blowing up constantly.
23:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And I became basically an expert.
23:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was like, I should start a company for this.
23:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And my friend, who was my co-founder, was having the same experience.
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: While I had that company, friends would still text me.
23:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's very complicated.
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very complicated.
23:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It'd be like, hey, whatever it may be.
23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: My boss is getting married.
23:45
[SPEAKER_00]: What do I buy him?
23:46
[SPEAKER_00]: My budget is $100 to $200.
23:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm literally busy doing this for a living because I started a company for it.
23:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But I love helping and I love my friends.
23:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So that can be complicated.
24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It is similar to sharing in your case in particular, especially sharing the links of things you've bought just for yourself, which you probably took time to source, and some of it might have been for work to share online and, oh gosh, but you can get taken advantage of.
24:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm thinking about back to the work line for me, the best thing is podcasting.
24:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It is very complicated to set up a podcast.
24:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I have some people say it's very easy to start, but it's not easy to do it well.
24:26
[SPEAKER_01]: people would ask, not friends of mine.
24:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But people I might know through the writing world would ask, or would be like, oh, I'm starting a podcast.
24:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you hop on a Zoom?
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no hopping on a Zoom to tell you where to start a podcast.
24:36
[SPEAKER_01]: That's hours and hours of time.
24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I spent hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours.
24:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't even count them all.
24:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Learning how to do this to solve for this.
24:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I set up a page on my site that is basically offers to, I will do that.
24:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But here's what I cost though.
24:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And so sometimes when people put that, when they send me that and there's a message and again, these aren't close friends.
24:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I've no close
24:57
[SPEAKER_01]: just people I know though.
24:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So someone says to me, can you have on a zoom?
25:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I now have something that I can say, oh, that's something I do as a service.
25:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the link to it.
25:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And they may look at that.
25:06
[SPEAKER_01]: See what I charge and be like, oh, no, thanks.
25:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what I had them.
25:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's fine.
25:10
[SPEAKER_01]: But at least I have an organized way to basically say no.
25:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not looking to do this as a business, really.
25:15
[SPEAKER_01]: somebody looked at it and said you're charging a lot and like well that's because I don't actually want to do it.
25:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I will do it for that for that number but I'm not looking to be a podcast assistant at all unless they want to pay me X and I'm sure I'll do that all day.
25:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Right anyway, I feel similarly about personal styling so personal styling is not a huge leg of my business.
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I do many
25:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Things under my secretly fancy umbrella, but personal styling is an acute part because it's so time-consuming.
25:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very hard to like make a good income from it.
25:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a time suck.
25:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I do is I do personal styling for...
25:51
[SPEAKER_00]: very few people were willing to pay for my service and I feel like it's fair and it makes sense because it does not make sense for everyone.
26:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in terms of paying for service, let's take affiliate links, for example, which is an obviously a facet of what I do and what a lot of influencers do and what a lot of fashion content creators do.
26:13
[SPEAKER_00]: At this point in my career, I, of course, have affiliate partners with different brands, different platforms and all of that good stuff, but it's still a little awkward if friends are asking me about clothes or what belt or I need all new denim, all literally a friend texted me all the time, I need a new denim wardrobe.
26:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, that's chill.
26:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That'll take me literally seven hours.
26:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But even then, I feel a little weird sending them links that are I'm getting a kickback from.
26:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have to tell myself and really hype myself up and say, Candice, this is your expertise.
26:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You know A, what's in style right now?
26:53
[SPEAKER_00]: B, you're very good with the female form.
26:56
[SPEAKER_00]: What will be flattering?
26:57
[SPEAKER_00]: C, you know this person's lifestyle.
26:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a huge value.
27:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Add it's okay to send the affiliate links.
27:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
27:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's nothing out of their pocket.
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like really, it's nothing out of their pocket, right?
27:08
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm so sensitive to it that it's still hard for me.
27:12
[SPEAKER_00]: How many years later it's, you know, I've been doing this for so many years.
27:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I still feel a little guilty, which by the way, I shouldn't.
27:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't have no problem with a friend of mine sending me an affiliate link.
27:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say like a really excellent friend on the flip side that we're talking a lot about this on putting the responsibility on the person sharing the links or sharing the information.
27:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I want some of this episodes to be the responsibility on the other person.
27:35
[SPEAKER_01]: How lovely would it be for a friend asking you to spend your time that way to say, and Candice, I know you do this for a living.
27:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Send me the affiliate link.
27:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll do it through that.
27:42
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be nice if someone would do that.
27:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It would take all the
27:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Potential, it's feeling out of somebody asking a lot of your time or somebody even copying what you're doing.
27:53
[SPEAKER_01]: If they were to say, that looks amazing on you.
27:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So number one, flattery.
27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And really being, I mean, not communicating.
27:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Just communication.
27:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Just communication.
28:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk to your friend.
28:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell her how you feel.
28:03
[SPEAKER_00]: female friendship is I feel bad saying this because I clearly have a family, but it is single handedly gotten me through the trials and tribulations of my life and I have had many for better or for worse.
28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I would not be where I am without my friends.
28:19
[SPEAKER_00]: That is one of my number one priorities.
28:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really do prioritize it in my life because I think that that is a big part of what
28:31
[SPEAKER_01]: One other thing that I wanted to mention, I'm in the middle of reading the book, Madering, which has been all over the place lately, by Jennifer Brehenny.
28:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that's how you pronounce her middle name wallace.
28:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's all over the place these days, Madering.
28:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It's bigger than this topic, but this topic falls into it, which is we all want to feel acknowledged.
28:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't even take a lot.
28:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It just takes a various little thing.
28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think an undercurrent of this episode is sort of feeling taken for granted.
29:01
[SPEAKER_01]: question and just behind the topic in general is it would make all the difference if you didn't feel that the person copying, asking, imitating, wanting something from you was appreciating it.
29:13
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all.
29:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, and I think that goes back to just open communication and acknowledging your friends and celebrating them for what they're good at.
29:23
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it sounds fashion sounds.
29:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Stop it, but it's actually fed my life in such a meaningful way.
29:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really care about it.
29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I care about it.
29:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it helps people with their confidence and identity and it's an art form.
29:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And if my friends don't kind of acknowledge that, that's a big facet of who I am.
29:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And that doesn't feel right.
29:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really want friends like that.
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I want friends to celebrate me for who I am, just like I love celebrating my friends, for who they are, even if they don't care at all about fashion, whatever they're doing.
29:56
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I love my friends for our differences in our unique talents that we bring to the table.
30:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I love that.
30:02
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I said.
30:03
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, Candace, to wrap us up and give us something to walk away with.
30:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that a good friend does like to share and is wanting to share with their friends.
30:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And a good friend who is asking for the share is conscious of how they're doing it.
30:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess that's what we're saying.
30:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not wrong to ask your friends for their stuff.
30:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I leave almost any girls dinner.
30:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I have even if it's one on one.
30:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I leave with links.
30:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And there, none of them are influencers.
30:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like that.
30:30
[SPEAKER_01]: We're helping each other.
30:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fun.
30:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fun to share.
30:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it can even be like by this vacuum not that what.
30:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, not to sound like so domestic.
30:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It's sometimes a research out there is
30:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So overwhelming and if someone's already done it, like the watch, like the shoes you were saying, okay, that person's kind of into fitness and Yeah, it seems to find that shoe supportive.
30:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, sure.
30:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's let's try to even down to what doctors to go to all of our friends I had a brunch thing recently and we were talking about like the hormone situation.
30:58
[SPEAKER_01]: We're all in early for this and You know some people are on that some people are earned and it's like wait, what are you on?
31:03
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you on and we're just trying to fast forward the research together?
31:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, I want people to leave this feeling like they can ask their friends for help, but just be aware that someone has taken the time and be grateful for it.
31:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
31:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that is exactly right.
31:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Women are powerful when we come together as a collective.
31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So many women are so much to offer.
31:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So sharing is the best.
31:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think acknowledging your friends, celebrating them for what they bring to the table.
31:34
[SPEAKER_00]: They're unique value proposition in terms of the friendship and life.
31:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And what they give to the universe is important.
31:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And if that's the case, then it's all good.
31:48
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a great place to end.
31:49
[SPEAKER_01]: If you listen to the podcast, which I know you have, I end every episode, say thank you for coming, number one.
31:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having Nina this has been a wonderful conversation.
31:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And come back next week when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.
32:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Amen.
32:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Listeners, I forget to tell you this.
32:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find my Facebook group, Dear Nina, the group, when you go into the search part of Facebook, just type in Dear Nina the group.
32:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is a great place where you can get your anonymous friendship questions answered, not just by me, but by other active members of the group who have been there, who feel your pain,
32:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe they can even answer from the other point of view.
32:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm even thinking of today's topic.
32:28
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, you might write a question like this, and some of might be able to answer from the point of view of the person who has asked their friend for free work, or does ask for the links a lot.
32:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's helpful to hear from that point of view which you might not hear otherwise, because it's so many people coming together who care about friendship and think about it a lot.
32:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's it, dear Nina, a group.
32:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And if we're not connected on social media, that's at your need a bunch of Instagram, TikTok, and even on YouTube.
32:56
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to see the episode, though, like, I already warned you.
32:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not wearing anything special in any of them.
33:02
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, have a great week.